The athletic surveyed 101 former players about several subjects. [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 01:19 PM

These are their answers I’ve stolen to get around the paywall:

1. Who is the best current NBA player?

NAME
PERCENTAGE

LeBron James
28.1%

Nikola Jokić
21.2%

Giannis Antetokounmpo
21.0%

Kevin Durant
11.8%

Stephen Curry
6.6%

Luka Dončić
6.6%

Kyrie Irving
2.2%

Multiple players
Under 2.0%

What survey respondents said:
“LeBron James (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/nba/player/lebron-james-dxRvkEThnxpMbhcr/). The body of work and what he is currently doing at his age makes him the best of his time.” – Jumaine Jones, who played for six teams from 1999 through 2007
“Nikola Jokić (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/nba/player/nikola-jokic-bCjsyLGuQMrMSWNr/), because he dominates the game on both ends of the floor and makes his teammates better.” – Lee Nailon, who played six seasons from 2000-06
“Giannis (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/nba/player/giannis-antetokounmpo-FV8e23LS5qDkPy4W/). He affects winning on both sides of the court. He has a determined will to win. His versatile skill package allows him to affect many statistical categories contributing to winning. His physical presence is dominant. It looks like his teammates enjoy playing with him. He seems to will his team to win. He doesn’t come off as a prima donna.” – Anonymous player from the late 1990s
The Athletic’s takeaway: Last season, Durant topped the retired players’ vote totals in this category by a substantial margin (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/3014155/2021/12/15/nba-retired-players-survey-on-steph-giannis-lebron-future-stars-top-coaches-rule-changes-how-the-game-has-evolved/), getting nearly half (44 percent) of the vote. But KD’s injuries since our last survey 16 months ago and subsequent games lost seem to have reduced his standing. It’s not that James has a higher share of the vote than before; it’s just that KD’s support has apparently splintered into multiple pieces, while LeBron’s has essentially stayed the same (31 percent then, 28 percent now).
Jokić’s ascent toward the top of the vote total sticks out. He already had won his first MVP award when we last surveyed players, but he finished in a tie for fifth place, garnering a little less than 2 percent of the vote. Jokić has turned heads since then, winning his second MVP in a row and was averaging close to a triple-double this season — 25.1 points, 11.0 rebounds and 9.9 assists per game (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?DateTo=01/26/2023&dir=A&sort=AST) — when the NRBPA distributed the survey to its members.
2. What do you miss most about being an NBA or ABA player?

ANSWER
PERCENTAGE

Comradeship with teammates
41.4%

The competition
25.2%

The money
9.7%

The traveling
6.1%

The fans
2.3%

Game days/game nights
2.0%

The sport itself
2.0%

Multiple responses
Under 2.0%

What survey respondents said:
“I just loved to play the games. That’s what I miss — and the camaraderie. … I made great friends, like Clyde Lee and Butch Beard. … Those are my two best friends, actually. … I miss that camaraderie.” – Jim Barnett, who played 11 seasons from the mid-1960s to the mid-70s, primarily with the San Diego Rockets, Golden State Warriors (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/nba/team/warriors/) and New York Knicks (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/nba/team/knicks/)
“Being 27 again” – Anonymous player who competed in the ’70s and ’80s
The Athletic’s takeaway: These answers would refute any contention that the old heads are just hating on today’s players’ salaries. Many more players talk about the feeling of a fellowship of being among their peers, talking junk to one another on the plane or in the restaurant. Being one of the guys. There’s a common thread any time you’re among retired players during All-Star Weekend: they’re just happy to see each other again.
This speaks to the notion of “community.” Of course, there are many types of communities outside of professional sports: religious congregations, schools and workplaces, etc. But playing on a pro team is an intense experience in which everyone is supposed to unite behind a singular goal: winning. (Not always, we know.) While it’s not impossible to replicate a feeling of unity outside of pro sports, it’s no surprise that retired players miss that feeling now.

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 01:20 PM

3. What would you do differently in your professional career if you could play in the current era?

ANSWER
PERCENTAGE

Work harder/train smarter
17.3%

Shoot more 3-pointers
15.3%

Showcase my talent more
12.8%

I'd do nothing differently
10.2%

Be more careful with my money
5.1%

Take the game more seriously
4.1%

Be a better ballhandler
2.6%

Do more in the community
2.6%

Be paid better
2.0%

Network and socialize more
2.0%

Play longer
2.0%

Remain with one team by signing a long-term contract
2.0%

Stretch more
2.0%

Multiple responses
Under 2.0%

What survey respondents said:
“Pro basketball is now a 12-month job. I am sure I would have spent more of my offseason working on my game and physical conditioning. I had a job in the offseason.” – Bill Melchionni, who played two seasons in the late 1960s for the Philadelphia 76ers (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/nba/team/sixers/) and seven seasons, from 1969-76, for the ABA’s New York Nets
“Play more selfishly, which is a nuanced answer. There are ways to play selfishly in a team concept. For the most part, it doesn’t pay to be selfless in the NBA. Even if you look at great defenders … they play selfishly to a certain extent.” – Anonymous former NBA player who competed in the 1990s
The Athletic’s takeaway: The top-three answers — working harder, shooting more 3s and finding more ways to stand out — reflect some of the major changes in the NBA over the last several decades, particularly the last 10 years. Melchionni’s response speaks to how the sport’s economics have changed since he played: Because today’s rank-and-file players are paid so well, they don’t need to have offseason jobs and can focus more on skill development and body maintenance.
The answers also echo changes in how the game is played, particularly the explosion in 3-point shooting and the rule changes that have unlocked players’ offensive games. Through Saturday, NBA teams are attempting 34.1 3-point attempts per game this season; back in the 2002-03 season, teams averaged 14.7 attempts from deep (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2003.html). In 1992-93, teams launched just 9.0 3-point attempts per game (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1993.html). So it’s no surprise that if the retired players could have a do-over and play in today’s era, they would develop a skill that was deemphasized back in the day.
4. Which current player do you enjoy watching most?

PLAYER
PERCENTAGE

Stephen Curry
28.5%

Ja Morant
15.2%

Nikola Jokić
10.0%

Kevin Durant
8.7%

Luka Dončić
8.4%

Giannis Antetokounmpo
6.5%

LeBron James
5.7%

Kyrie Irving
2.4%

Jayson Tatum
2.2%

Multiple players
Under 2.0%

What survey respondents said:
“Steph Curry (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/nba/player/stephen-curry-toS7DgUD3IIt7uds/). He is doing things that seem impossible sometimes. He has changed the landscape of basketball. He looks like a normal person.” – Olden Polynice, a center who played 15 seasons, from 1987-2005, most of them for the Seattle SuperSonics and Sacramento Kings (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/nba/team/sac-kings/)
“Ja Morant (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/nba/player/ja-morant-O9seJiOia3fxGmjz/). (He brings) passion, electricity and showmanship every time he plays.” – Sam Vincent, who played seven seasons, from the mid-1980s to the early ’90s
The Athletic’s takeaway: It’s still Steph’s World, just as it was last season, when he also led this category, receiving a league-best 33 percent of the vote (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/3014155/2021/12/15/nba-retired-players-survey-on-steph-giannis-lebron-future-stars-top-coaches-rule-changes-how-the-game-has-evolved/). His percentage has come down some, but he still leads this category by a wide margin. And we, for two, would welcome Bol Bol, who received votes in this category from a handful of retired players, as our new basketball overlord (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WDQ70FPYXA).
Most striking to us is that the former players find Morant every bit as captivating as NBA fans do. When we asked this identical question 16 months ago for last season’s survey, Morant didn’t receive a single vote. But since then, Morant has earned two All-Star nods and has helped the Memphis Grizzlies (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/nba/team/grizzlies/) become one of the league’s best, and most exciting, teams.
5. We’re interested to know how the 2021-22 NBA champion Golden State Warriors would fare in a hypothetical best-of-seven series against a championship team of the past. We’ve picked the 1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers, which included Moses Malone, Julius Erving, Maurice Cheeks, Andrew Toney and Bobby Jones. If those teams played each other using the NBA rules employed in 2003 — midway between the teams’ championship seasons — which team would win the series, and how many games would it take?

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 01:21 PM

5. We’re interested to know how the 2021-22 NBA champion Golden State Warriors would fare in a hypothetical best-of-seven series against a championship team of the past. We’ve picked the 1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers, which included Moses Malone, Julius Erving, Maurice Cheeks, Andrew Toney and Bobby Jones. If those teams played each other using the NBA rules employed in 2003 — midway between the teams’ championship seasons — which team would win the series, and how many games would it take?
Who would win the series?

TEAM
PERCENTAGE

Philadelphia 76ers
74.4%

Golden State Warriors
25.6%

How many games would it take?

OUTCOME
PERCENTAGE

Sixers win in 6
33.3%

Sixers win in 5
15.6%

Sixers win in 4
13.3%

Sixers win in 7
12.2%

Warriors win in 7
8.9%

Warriors win in 5
7.8%

Warriors win in 6
6.7%

Warriors win in 4
2.2%

What survey respondents said:
“I’d have to go with the Sixers. I’d give them the full seven. Their physical defense (would be the difference). Mo Cheeks was a heck of a defensive guard. Andrew Toney could get after you. They had Moses and Dr. J.” – anonymous player who played from the late 1970s to the early ’90s
The Athletic’s takeaway: It’s not surprising that most of yesterday’s players would take yesteryear’s team — though, in fairness, a few respondents said the 2021-22 Warriors would win if the series were played and officiated under today’s much more liberal rules, which encourage offensive movement and flow. We should also note that the ’82-83 Sixers were one of the most dominant teams of all time, going 65-17 during the regular season and 12-1 during the playoffs.
In this fictional series, how would the Sixers adapt to the ’21-22 Warriors’ launching 3-pointer after 3-pointer? But would the Warriors have an answer for Malone?
These are difficult questions to answer — so much so that in a conversation with us, one of our respondents declined to predict a winner. “I hate these (kinds of) questions, because the rules are so different,” he said. “The rules are different. (So are) the way they played, the way they thought, the way they trained. Are they flying commercial (flights) to all these games? Do they get their $75 per diem or are they going to have a chef make ’em meals at the end of the game? Everything is so different now. I know fans love those questions, but I hate those questions.”
6. Is the quality of play in the NBA today better or worse than it was during your career?

ANSWER
PERCENTAGE

A bit worse today
23.4%

Can't compare different eras
21.3%

A bit better today
14.9%

Much worse today
12.8%

Much better today
10.6%

The same
6.4%

Offensive skills are better, but there's less defense
5.3%

The athleticism is better, but the fundamentals are worse
3.2%

Multiple responses
Under 2.0%

What survey respondents said:
“I think the physicality and the bulk of the players (is less now). Those Goliath power forwards and centers, you can’t find those guys no more. Where’d they go? Did they all start playing football? Are they all tight ends now? Are they defensive ends?
“I always think back to my rookie year throwing a jump hook in the post against Tim Duncan. That was different to throwing a jump hook in the post right now. Not only did I have to throw the jump hook over Tim Duncan, but David Robinson was on the weak side trying to block it, too. … So I think finishing around the rim is a lot easier now than it was when I was playing.” – Drew Gooden, who played 15 seasons for 10 teams, from 2002-15
“More players have better overall skills, which makes it better for scoring and entertainment purposes but worse for defense. Flopping and dramatic antics to deceive the referees have worsened the game’s overall quality.” – someone who played from the mid-1990s to early 2000s
The Athletic’s takeaway: In last season’s survey, the number of respondents saying the game was a little or a lot better today was above 30 percent. It’s come down some in the interim, and now a plurality of former players believes the game is a bit or much worse today.
This is speculation, but a possible reason for the change in retirees’ opinions might be the growth in offense. During the 2020-21 season, teams averaged 112.1 points per game and shot 46.6 percent on average from the field, according to Basketball Reference. This season, teams were averaging 114.4 points and shooting 47.4 percent on average from the field through Saturday; plus, there’s been an explosion in individual 40-point games (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/4069128/2023/01/09/making-sense-nba-scoring-boom/). Perhaps the former players are bemoaning the decline in defense.

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 01:21 PM

7. Which current NBA coach would you have most liked to play for?

COACH
PERCENTAGE

Steve Kerr
28.8%

Gregg Popovich
28.3%

Doc Rivers
5.4%

Erik Spoelstra
5.4%

Jason Kidd
3.8%

Monty Williams
3.8%

Michael Malone
3.3%

Mike Brown
2.2%

Mike Budenholzer
2.2%

Rick Carlisle
2.2%

Tyronn Lue
2.2%

Jacque Vaughn
2.2%

Multiple responses
Under 2.0%

What survey respondents said:
“Steve Kerr. I love the way he allows the team to figure things out and creates an atmosphere of ‘team’ where each player can find a niche and flourish.” – Stephen Howard, who played four seasons for four teams during the 1990s
“Coach Pop. He knows how to mold his players.” – Kenny Battle, who played four seasons, from the late 1980s to the mid-90s
The Athletic’s takeaway: Success/recency bias? Maybe. But it’s not much of a surprise, either, given Kerr’s and Popovich’s pedigrees and platforms.
8. How much does it matter to you that your era of basketball is remembered correctly?

ANSWER
PERCENTAGE

It matters to me
74.5%

It doesn't matter to me
14.3%

No opinion
10.2%

It is remembered correctly
1.0%

What survey respondents said:
“That’s important. I think people now think that this (era of basketball) is ‘it’ — that it doesn’t get any better than this. That’s false. That’s just a narrative. The guys that I played with, I would take them against anybody and any team … because I believed in those guys that much, and we were that good as a team.” – Derek Harper, who played 15 seasons, from 1983-99, primarily for the Mavericks (https://archive.ph/o/neyYG/https://theathletic.com/nba/team/mavericks/) and Knicks
The Athletic’s takeaway: We would have been surprised if a majority of former players don’t care about how correctly their era of basketball is remembered. It’s human nature to want to be appreciated and given due credit.
9. Are you happy about the money today’s players are making or are you jealous about the money today’s players are making?

ANSWER
PERCENTAGE

Very happy
69.1%

Somewhat jealous
7.4%

Happy and envious
6.4%

Very jealous
5.3%

No opinion
4.3%

Slightly happy
4.3%

Remember the pioneers
3.2%

What survey respondents said:
“I’m glad they’re making it! If they weren’t making it, the owners would be making it. I always tell people that. They get mad at the players, and I’m like, ‘Would you rather have the owners making more money? OK, then let the players make as much as they can.’ These guys have earned it. They absolutely have earned it. Every once in a while, someone will come up to me and say, ‘Can you imagine what you could make today if you played in today’s game?’ I’m like, ‘Yeah, but people (who played) in the ’60s were saying that about us in the ’80s.’ … I guess one small caveat is I would like to see the middle class get some more of the pie. But I get it: It’s a superstar-driven league, and it always has been.” – Tom Tolbert, who played for four franchises from late-1980s to the mid-90s
The Athletic’s takeaway: We suppose readers would look at these results with skepticism and think the survey respondents chose not to reveal their true feelings in order not to appear jealous. But remember, one of the reasons we allowed anonymity was to give them added freedom to answer honestly.

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 01:22 PM

10. Which current player(s) would have excelled when you played?
(Since respondents could name more than one player, the percentages below reflect the percentage of ballots on which a specific player or answer was named, not the share of votes.)

ANSWER
PERCENTAGE

LeBron James
39.6%

Kevin Durant
23.1%

Steph Curry
17.6%

Giannis Antetokounmpo
16.5%

Nikola Jokić
14.3%

All of them
13.2%

Luka Dončić
12.1%

Joel Embiid
11.0%

Greats today would've been great back then
11.0%

Kyrie Irving
7.7%

Klay Thompson
5.5%

Kawhi Leonard
3.3%

Damian Lillard
2.2%

Ja Morant
2.2%

Chris Paul
2.2%

Jayson Tatum
2.2%

Multiple responses
Under 2.0%

What survey respondents said:
“LeBron. He could play in any era. He takes care of his body and could take the rigors of commercial flights and long road trips.” – Anonymous player who competed both in the ABA and NBA in the 1970s and ’80s.
“The best players now would be the best players then. The best players are the best players regardless of eras.” – Tariq Abdul-Wahad, who played six seasons, from the late 1990s to early 2000s
The Athletic’s takeaway: As we studied these answers, we were struck by how many of the former players listed more than one player or said that today’s best players would’ve been top-flight players back in the day, too. But that’s not a surprise. One of the reasons we have made this poll an annual occurrence is that we believe former players are uniquely qualified to evaluate today’s game — just as today’s players will be most able to evaluate whatever happens next.

Real Men Wear Green

02-28-2023, 02:00 PM

Is funny that anyone thinks Kyrie Irving is the best player in the league. I really do believe part of his support is support for his political and/or social positions.

ArbitraryWater

02-28-2023, 02:18 PM

Hahahaa lebron still 1, people FUMING.

SouBeachTalents

02-28-2023, 02:27 PM

I know people will fixate on LeBron being #1, but how the hell did Kyrie get a single vote for best in the league, let alone 2% :lol He's not even a top 10 player.

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 02:36 PM

There are people in the game who would argue Kyrie is the most skilled basketball player to ever live, and it’s not an impossible case to make. Some people consider that more than others. The nicest ever doesn’t necessarily have to be the most effective. How effective you are depends on a lot of factors beyond how “good” you are at the skills they all work on. I’m not surprised some players differentiate between the two.

SaltyMeatballs

02-28-2023, 02:39 PM

LeBron at #1 :applause:

Real Men Wear Green

02-28-2023, 02:39 PM

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 02:49 PM

I would agree that Irving might be the most skilled ever but would anyone take Tim Hardaway over Shaq? That's basically what this 2% is doing.

Irving isn't close to most skilled

Hes a great ball handler and finisher for his size. He's not more overall skilled than Harden though who is an elite passer, or CP3, or several others

Only low IQs insinuate kyrie is the most skilled player ever or even in the discussion.

tontoz

02-28-2023, 02:50 PM

That Sixers team in '83 was pretty stacked. They only lost 1 game in the playoffs.

Real Men Wear Green

02-28-2023, 02:52 PM

Irving isn't close to most skilled

Hes a great ball handler and finisher for his size. He's not more overall skilled than Harden though who is an elite passer, or CP3, or several others

Only low IQs insinuate kyrie is the most skilled player ever or even in the discussion.
You seem to go out of your way to write dumb shit in response to me. I don't find you that interesting, sorry.

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 03:00 PM

You seem to go out of your way to write dumb shit in response to me. I don't find you that interesting, sorry.

I wasn't responding to you per se, just responding to an idea that irving is considered the most skilled ever. I was adding logic and IQ to the thread to counteract you and kblazes lack of IQ.

HoopologyPhD

02-28-2023, 03:15 PM

Hypothetical, how good would the 82-83 sixers have been if they drafted Barkley a few years earlier?

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 03:31 PM

You seem to go out of your way to write dumb shit in response to me. I don't find you that interesting, sorry.

I generally skip over anything next to his name but whenever I don’t it’s something ridiculous so I wouldn’t assume it’s about you. Last thing I believe I saw from him was about Klay being more important than Steph to the warriors or something. He’s the type who if I actually read the trolling I’d end up banning him so I just disregard it.

Hes 3ball ish just on the other side.

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 03:33 PM

I would agree that Irving might be the most skilled ever but would anyone take Tim Hardaway over Shaq? That's basically what this 2% is doing.

I don’t think it’s being answered from a “Who do you draft first” pov.

Real Men Wear Green

02-28-2023, 03:39 PM

I don’t think it’s being answered from a “Who do you draft first” pov.

I guess it's judging them based on aesthetics like it's ice skating instead of who is more important to winning but it really is judging who is better at basketball while ignoring who is more valuable. Doesnt make a lot of sense.

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 03:49 PM

I guess it's judging them based on aesthetics like it's ice skating instead of who is more important to winning but it really is judging who is better at basketball while ignoring who is more valuable. Doesnt make a lot of sense.

It’s not that unusual. There are credible football players and coaches who would say Randy Moss is the goat despite Rice winning all those super bowls, having every record, and having both better prime numbers and longevity.

There’s a certain “This mf is ridiculous….” quality that is hard to throw out for some.

It’s not as simple as style over substance though at a glance it appears to be.

People have always taken crazy skilled guards over obviously more dominant bigger players. Plenty of people in the 60s had Oscar as the best player in a league with Russell and Wilt dominating everything. Straight up skill based evaluation. It’s as old as the nba.

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 03:51 PM

I generally skip over anything next to his name but whenever I don’t it’s something ridiculous so I wouldn’t assume it’s about you. Last thing I believe I saw from him was about Klay being more important than Steph to the warriors or something. He’s the type who if I actually read the trolling I’d end up banning him so I just disregard it.

Hes 3ball ish just on the other side.

Last time you saw me post was when I called you out for saying lebron vs. Curry in 2016 wasn't a Pete weber moment.

I've destroyed you every time we've interacted so of course you lie and say the last time you've seen me post is some shit I'm trolling curry stans with.

Low IQ and weak. Sad.

SouBeachTalents

02-28-2023, 03:56 PM

It’s not that unusual. There are credible football players and coaches who would say Randy Moss is the goat despite Rice winning all those super bowls, having every record, and having both better prime numbers and longevity.

There’s a certain “This mf is ridiculous….” quality that is hard to throw out for some.

It’s not as simple as style over substance though at a glance it appears to be.

People have always taken crazy skilled guards over obviously more dominant bigger players. Plenty of people in the 60s had Oscar as the best player in a league with Russell and Wilt dominating everything. Straight up skill based evaluation. It’s as old as the nba.
But Moss is pretty much the consensus 2nd best receiver of all time, and prime for prime I think you could make the argument Moss was the greatest receiver ever, he has the production and accolades where you could at least make a case. Ditto Oscar in the 60's. I get the point you're trying to make, Kyrie's just.....not even close to that level :lol

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 04:00 PM

But Moss is pretty much the consensus 2nd best receiver of all time, and prime for prime I think you could make the argument Moss was the greatest receiver ever, he has the production and accolades where you could at least make a case. Ditto Oscar in the 60's. I get the point you're trying to make, Kyrie's just.....not even close to that level :lol

When are people gonna catch on that kblaze isn't a bright guy and makes absurd claims and comparisons :oldlol:

I'm pretty sure everyone knows rmwg isn't all there but there's this weird respect kblaze seems to get from people as if he's not a complete dolt. Lol it's pretty funny though.

tontoz

02-28-2023, 04:02 PM

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 04:14 PM

But Moss is pretty much the consensus 2nd best receiver of all time, and prime for prime I think you could make the argument Moss was the greatest receiver ever, he has the production and accolades where you could at least make a case. Ditto Oscar in the 60's. I get the point you're trying to make, Kyrie's just.....not even close to that level :lol

Skills wise an awful lot of people would say he is. Including current players, former players, and coaches. Don’t know what you want from me. People think it. Just is what it is.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-28-2023, 04:22 PM

Load management and deep bank accounts are likely things they wanted most.

Taking games off would've extended their careers. A bigger check, though, gives them less incentive to compete. In theory anyway.

Bron getting 'best player' and 'best to succeed in your era' is a sign of respect, though. Wonder which players completed the survey.

John8204

02-28-2023, 04:26 PM

But Moss is pretty much the consensus 2nd best receiver of all time, and prime for prime I think you could make the argument Moss was the greatest receiver ever, he has the production and accolades where you could at least make a case. Ditto Oscar in the 60's. I get the point you're trying to make, Kyrie's just.....not even close to that level :lol

Shock of shockers SouBeachTalents thinks a top three receiver of the 00's is the GOAT. Right the guy that never led the league in any receivers categories is better than Rice, Hutson, and Alworth

SouBeachTalents

02-28-2023, 04:36 PM

Skills wise an awful lot of people would say he is. Including current players, former players, and coaches. Don’t know what you want from me. People think it. Just is what it is.
You could argue Kyrie's the most skilled player ever, and I know a lot of players place a huge emphasis on that, but personally, it's just something I've never understood or has never made sense to me. Kyrie's an All-NBA caliber player, but he's SO far removed from the BITW discussion, I just don't understand the logic of his skills superseding the clear deficit he has in dominance and impact compared to at least a dozen or so other players. It's always seemed like an illogical and frankly unintelligent argument to me. Yes, Kyrie blows Giannis away in skillset, but one guy is legitimately tiers above the other in terms of contributing to winning basketball games, which should be the only thing that matters.

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 04:37 PM

Shock of shockers SouBeachTalents thinks a top three receiver of the 00's is the GOAT. Right the guy that never led the league in any receivers categories is better than Rice, Hutson, and Alworth

He said prime for prime. Moss past his prime broke the TD record, albeit in more games

Imagine peak Moss playing with Montana and Young for extended periods.

Rice was better at holding onto the ball when taking big hits (maybe due to using stickam) but moss has him beat almost everywhere else. Dude was a freak athlete and ball tracker. One of the best athletes in history

FultzNationRISE

02-28-2023, 04:41 PM

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 04:42 PM

SouBeachTalents

02-28-2023, 04:42 PM

He said prime for prime. Moss past his prime broke the TD record, albeit in more games

Imagine peak Moss playing with Montana and Young for extended periods.

Rice was better at holding onto the ball when taking big hits (maybe due to using stickam) but moss has him beat almost everywhere else. Dude was a freak athlete and ball tracker. One of the best athletes in history
Bro, that dude is legitimately retarded, don't even pay him any mind :lol I bet he'll actually claim Marvin Harrison was a better receiver than Moss was, him and Owens are my guess as to who he thinks were better than him in the 2000's.

The most impressive thing to me about Moss, he gets drafted by the Vikes, his first season there, they go 15-1 and break the points record. Then he gets traded to the Pats, his first season there, they go 16-0 and break the points record. That's just unprecedented impact by a WR.

FultzNationRISE

02-28-2023, 04:43 PM

(edit: Unless you have Lebron as GOAT. Then obviously your opinion as a former pro is valid.)

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 04:47 PM

You could argue Kyrie's the most skilled player ever, and I know a lot of players place a huge emphasis on that, but personally, it's just something I've never understood or has never made sense to me. Kyrie's an All-NBA caliber player, but he's SO far removed from the BITW discussion, I just don't understand the logic of his skills superseding the clear deficit he has in dominance and impact compared to at least a dozen or so other players. It's always seemed like an illogical and frankly unintelligent argument to me. Yes, Kyrie blows Giannis away in skillset, but one guy is legitimately tiers above the other in terms of contributing to winning basketball games, which should be the only thing that matters.

I suppose within the community of players and insiders who spend their lives developing skills they have more reverence for it than fans who tend to lean on legacy things in evaluations.

This is what players see:

“He's must-see TV. I personally think, as somebody that played the position, I think Kyrie's the most skilled player that's ever played that position. Just straight skill. Nothing else.”
Chauncey Billups

Fournier's tweet said: "Kyrie really the most skilled player ever. Not even sure its a debate."

This is a laker coach who played college ball and internationally:

“I will go on record and say this,” Handy said. “He is probably the most skilled player to ever play. Offensively, probably the most skilled player to ever put on basketball shoes.”

They are not talking about what you’re talking about. I’m sure Nate Thurmond was more effective than Pistol Pete but players don’t talk about him as being more skilled.

Players have more respect for skill among themselves than fans ever will because fans don’t understand how hard it is to do some of the shit they do.

Players have been talking about Kyries insane skill for years.

This isn’t like a weird take from the edges of society. There have been evenly split segments of nba players on espn asking if Kyrie was the goat skills wise.

Fans just don’t look at the game the way players do. Players aren’t googling plus minus numbers….

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 04:47 PM

Homie in the first question said Jokic "dominates the game on both ends of the floor."

Like... what?

This dude's not even keeping up with the basic headlines, let alone watching games.

Why would you even ask random guys for analytical input when that's the kind of answers they give. Being a former player doesnt mean you have shit to say. Even about basketball. Clearly.

Truth. Most people, including former players, don't actually know what theyre talking about on any serious level. For every JJ Redick there's like 20 matt Barnes or Shaqs who just don't have good opinions.

Xiao Yao You

02-28-2023, 04:55 PM

That Sixers team in '83 was pretty stacked. They only lost 1 game in the playoffs.

most dominate team I saw

Xiao Yao You

02-28-2023, 04:56 PM

Hypothetical, how good would the 82-83 sixers have been if they drafted Barkley a few years earlier?

who knows? They get worse defensively with him taking minutes from Bobby Jones, Caldwell Jones etc

Xiao Yao You

02-28-2023, 04:59 PM

In terms of ball handling/shooting/finishing at the rim Kyrie has to be near the top. The fact that he has so little positive impact in spite of that is a testament to how much of a head case he really is.

but is he really more skilled than guys who weren't allowed to travel, palm the ball, etc. in previous eras?

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 05:03 PM

Bro, that dude is legitimately retarded, don't even pay him any mind :lol I bet he'll actually claim Marvin Harrison was a better receiver than Moss was, him and Owens are my guess as to who he thinks were better than him in the 2000's.

The most impressive thing to me about Moss, he gets drafted by the Vikes, his first season there, they go 15-1 and break the points record. Then he gets traded to the Pats, his first season there, they go 16-0 and break the points record. That's just unprecedented impact by a WR.
Moss wasn't even at his peak in 2007 athletically either, just the first time he played with an elite QB. Guy was insane. Brady threw 20+ more TDs that year than any year prior thanks to Moss.

If Brady threw the ball a foot longer on that hail mary in the super bowl I think Moss would've scored lol.

Xiao Yao You

02-28-2023, 05:06 PM

I suppose within the community of players and insiders who spend their lives developing skills they have more reverence for it than fans who tend to lean on legacy things in evaluations.

This is what players see:

This is a laker coach who played college ball and internationally:

They are not talking about what you’re talking about. I’m sure Nate Thurmond was more effective than Pistol Pete but players don’t talk about him as being more skilled.

Players have more respect for skill among themselves than fans ever will because fans don’t understand how hard it is to do some of the shit they do.

Players have been talking about Kyries insane skill for years.

This isn’t like a weird take from the edges of society. There have been evenly split segments of nba players on espn asking if Kyrie was the goat skills wise.

Fans just don’t look at the game the way players do. Players aren’t googling plus minus numbers….

some fans play basketball and understand. When I was growing up you couldn't get away with the shit they do today so it would be hard for me to call him more skilled than anyone. I'd be considered more skilled today if I was launching 3's, palming the ball, gather steps, etc. Different game totally

tontoz

02-28-2023, 05:19 PM

but is he really more skilled than guys who weren't allowed to travel, palm the ball, etc. in previous eras?

Guys used to palm the ball and travel back in the 80s/90s, they just had to deal with hand checking which is an auto foul now.

Axe

02-28-2023, 05:20 PM

Stupid haters on suicide watch upon witnessing who's on top.

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 05:25 PM

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 05:28 PM

Two of those ex players/coaches quoted are 47 and 51 and I’m sure they remember the game from when all of us were kids well. Kyrie is just an unusual combo of handles, shooting from everywhere, and an insane finisher. Players respect it. I was listening to a podcast with an ex executive who was trying to explain how nba players would always respect Kyrie just off their admiration for his skills. Other people who are insanely skilled talk about his skill set with awe.

People who judge players by awards, rings, and accolades just won’t see the game the way players do.

Nobody said he's not skilled jack ass, of course he's skilled.

The problem is you thinking that justifies people thinking he's the best player in the league and making a bogus comparison to Moss who actually DOES have an argument for best reciever. Irving has no case as best player regardless of pretty handles and finishing. You dumb ****.

"But players say stupid shit so I guess it's cool. You fans wouldn't understand" :oldlol: you are such a turkey my guy.

ShawkFactory

02-28-2023, 05:31 PM

Hypothetical, how good would the 82-83 sixers have been if they drafted Barkley a few years earlier?

Just that year? Probably no better.

That was a perfectly oiled machine and adding a new cog to it, especially a rookie, isn’t going to improve things. No matter how talented he was.

tontoz

02-28-2023, 05:32 PM

Nobody said he's not skilled jack ass, of course he's skilled.

The problem is you thinking that justifies people thinking he's the best player in the league and making a bogus comparison to Moss who actually DOES have an argument for best reciever. Irving has no case as best player regardless of pretty handles and finishing. You dumb ****.

"But players say stupid shit so I guess it's cool. You fans wouldn't understand" :oldlol: you are such a turkey my guy.

Who in this thread said Irving was the best player, or even close?

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 05:35 PM

Who in this thread said Irving was the best player, or even close?

The entire kyrie discussion stems from the fact that 2% of whoever was polled thinks he's the best player. Kblaze is defending that craziness by bringing up that ex players value skills and have a unique insight that fans supposedly don't. He made some bizzare cimparison to Moss and accolades as if Kyrie and Moss can be argued in the same analogous way. :oldlol:

Kblaze8855

02-28-2023, 05:37 PM

Who in this thread said Irving was the best player, or even close?

they didn’t release the names of the people who voted for him so I wouldn’t know. But based on how other players talk about him, I cant imagine the reason would be anything except ranking players based on skills. What else could it be?

tontoz

02-28-2023, 05:46 PM

The entire kyrie discussion stems from the fact that 2% of whoever was polled thinks he's the best player. Kblaze is defending that craziness by bringing up that ex players value skills and have a unique insight that fans supposedly don't. He made some bizzare cimparison to Moss and accolades as if Kyrie and Moss can be argued in the same analogous way. :oldlol:

I didn't see Kblaze defending Kyrie as the best player. 2.2% of players aren't really worthy of notice considering the history of player voting.

I did see Kblaze say Kyrie is seen as one of the most skilled ever. I have seen people say that many times in terms of his ball skills. Obviously there is more to basketball than shooting/ball handling but just in terms of ball skills Kyrie is definitely elite.

FultzNationRISE

02-28-2023, 05:46 PM

they didn’t release the names of the people who voted for him so I wouldn’t know. But based on how other players talk about him, I cant imagine the reason would be anything except ranking players based on skills. What else could it be?

Maybe there are a few players with a certain... ideological solidarity.

https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2017/09/Screen-Shot-2017-09-09-at-9.45.25-PM-e1505110452558.png

ShawkFactory

02-28-2023, 05:49 PM

The entire kyrie discussion stems from the fact that 2% of whoever was polled thinks he's the best player. Kblaze is defending that craziness by bringing up that ex players value skills and have a unique insight that fans supposedly don't. He made some bizzare cimparison to Moss and accolades as if Kyrie and Moss can be argued in the same analogous way. :oldlol:

It's certainly a leap but Moss was liable to be frustrated by certain factors within a game and could check out or become less effective than he normally would be. Particularly in a slug-fest type of environment. He wasn't known to get his hands dirty. And while he's probably the most talented WR ever and maybe the second GOAT after Rice, there are a few more guys I'd take over him in a big game if my life depended on it.

But overall yea he was far more impactful relative to his sport than Kyrie is. Moss was more like Kobe than Kyrie.

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 05:53 PM

It's certainly a leap but Moss was liable to be frustrated by certain factors within a game and could check out or become less effective than he normally would be. Particularly in a slug-fest type of environment. He wasn't known to get his hands dirty. And while he's probably the most talented WR ever and maybe the second GOAT after Rice, there are a few more guys I'd take over him in a big game if my life depended on it.

But overall yea he was far more impactful relative to his sport than Kyrie is. Moss was more like Kobe than Kyrie.

For sure, moss was a head case in certain ways too. (Nowhere near kyrie levels though)

But Moss is more comparable to Shaq in that regard, not kyrie.(moss the best physical talent ever) Moss was the best despite those mental shortcomings. Kyrie even with a perfect mental wouldn't be the best due to size/physical limitations

I just think it's weird to defend anyone thinking Irving is the best player. That's not a "old players value skills" thing, it's more like there's a lot of stupid ex players with insanely stupid opinions.

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 06:01 PM

I didn't see Kblaze defending Kyrie as the best player. 2.2% of players aren't really worthy of notice considering the history of player voting.

I did see Kblaze say Kyrie is seen as one of the most skilled ever. I have seen people say that many times in terms of his ball skills. Obviously there is more to basketball than shooting/ball handling but just in terms of ball skills Kyrie is definitely elite.

He's Implying that players value skills more than winning intangibles and lockerroom leadership, which I don't buy. It's probably closer to the opposite.

There are fans and ex players that are just stupid and buy into flash. Shaq put AI on his all time team. There's just a lot of ex players who are stupid people when jt comes to evaluating athletes. It's as simple as that.

SouBeachTalents

02-28-2023, 06:04 PM

It's certainly a leap but Moss was liable to be frustrated by certain factors within a game and could check out or become less effective than he normally would be. Particularly in a slug-fest type of environment. He wasn't known to get his hands dirty. And while he's probably the most talented WR ever and maybe the second GOAT after Rice, there are a few more guys I'd take over him in a big game if my life depended on it.

But overall yea he was far more impactful relative to his sport than Kyrie is. Moss was more like Kobe than Kyrie.
Yep, that's my biggest criticism of Moss, besides his off the field shenanigans. He never had a truly dominant performance in a big playoff game. He had a couple of them in opening games against mediocre teams, but besides those, he had some truly invisible showings.

2 for 18 in the 41-0 embarrassment
3 for 51 against Philly in '04
1 catch against Jacksonville & SD in '07, before a decent at best game in the Super Bowl
5 for 48 in the Baltimore beatdown in his last playoff game in New England

And for anyone pointing to his game against the '99 Rams, he did the majority of his damage when already trailing 49-17, truly garbage time stat padding.

I'm curious, who else you taking over Moss in a big game. Rice obv, I'm assuming Fitz, who else, Julio, Kupp, Edelman? You including TE's?

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 06:14 PM

Yep, that's my biggest criticism of Moss, besides his off the field shenanigans. He never had a truly dominant performance in a big playoff game. He had a couple of them in opening games against mediocre teams, but besides those, he had some truly invisible showings.

2 for 18 in the 41-0 embarrassment
3 for 51 against Philly in '04
1 catch against Jacksonville & SD in '07, before a decent at best game in the Super Bowl
5 for 48 in the Baltimore beatdown in his last playoff game in New England

And for anyone pointing to his game against the '99 Rams, he did the majority of his damage when already trailing 49-17, truly garbage time stat padding.

I'm curious, who else you taking over Moss in a big game. Rice obv, I'm assuming Fitz, who else, Julio, Kupp, Edelman? You including TE's?

WR is highly dependent on QB play though

No doubt Moss would have some monster playoff games alongside Montana and Young most of his career

SouBeachTalents

02-28-2023, 06:26 PM

WR is highly dependent on QB play though

No doubt Moss would have some monster playoff games alongside Montana and Young most of his career
That's why I don't put a huge emphasis on it, that and it's such a small sample size, we're talking literally 1-3 games here. Just to me, to not have even one marquee playoff performance is disappointing for a player as great as he was.

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 06:44 PM

That's why I don't put a huge emphasis on it, that and it's such a small sample size, we're talking literally 1-3 games here. Just to me, to not have even one marquee playoff performance is disappointing for a player as great as he was.

And stats don't always tell the stories for WRs. A WR can have a huge impact by being constantly doubled and opening the field for others. Playoffs are always a bit hit or miss for skill positions in football especially for extreme outliers like Moss or Sanders.

I'd still take Moss over anyone except Rice for one game, as long as I knew he was motivated lol

999Guy

02-28-2023, 06:44 PM

AlternativeAcc.

02-28-2023, 06:50 PM

Kyrie is top 1% skilled, but it’s really scoring and aggression geared.

CP3 has better defensive hands and timing than Kyrie on both ends. I’ve seen Kyrie get blocked many more times than CP3 and CP3 only takes difficult shots essentially, especially now that he can’t create separation anymore. CP3 timing on literally every single thing he does is perfect every time down.

Kyrie is the most fundamentally skilled on that AAU training camp level but there are guys who developed skills that you don’t and can’t reasonably teach. Unfundamental skills.

Jokic is another example of this. Jokic’ tap passes and one handed put-backs with either hand at any angle, is just his own category of skill. And his touch is the best I’ve ever seen in that uncomfortable 5-10 ft range.

Kyrie leaves too much passing on the table for my taste, skill-wise. I would never want to say he has more skill than Nash.

Kyrie can manipulate a basketball as good as anybody with either hand in some spots but like I said it’s rigid and geared toward scoring and only the means to do that.

Nice post

And his finishing stats aren't even better than Currys, who is more skilled at the more important skill of 3's. (Compared to ball handling in which kyrie objectively isn't the best but only the most flashly)

There's plenty of guys more skilled than Irving overall. There's so many sub skills that most fans AND players don't see or understand. He's really good at the things the average casual fan typically pays most attention to like dribbling and layup package type shit lol. His footwork in the post is the most impressive to me. But he leaves a lot on the table when you bring up the softer skills like timing, decision making, defensive skills etc.

But casuals gonna casual regardless if they've played at a high level or not.