Nikola Jokic defense is surprisingly elite?

[iamgine]

I always thought he's a below average defender but I heard he's been one of the most elite defender this season? Not DPOY level by any means but like a top 15 defender among all players.

Any truth to this?

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvNl_LIXhtY

[tontoz]

That vid was before the Hyland trade. I had heard he was really awful on D.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well I guess if you heard it, without even citing a source, it must be true.

[FultzNationRISE]

Just going by eye test, he’s good at contesting at the rim if he’s already near it. If he gets pulled away from it, thats when guys can make a meal of him. But thats more about how the game is now for every big. It happens to DPOY Toody, and it would happen to Duncan and Ewing if they played now.

Big Body centers are just targets on defense now. More nimble KG types like Draymond or Robert Williams give you more defensive dexterity but without the low post banging and scoring ability. So it’s just the tradeoff that comes with how the game is played.

[tontoz]

Last season the Nuggets gave up 6.8 ppg fewer per 48 with Jokic on the floor.

http://www.82games.com/2122/21DEN21.HTM#onoff

I have heard Zach Lowe talk about this on his podcast. Jokic's size and IQ allow him to be effective on defense. He doesnt go for pump fakes so guys have to shoot over him or around him. Sometimes guys can just blow by him but for the most part then don't get easy looks or foul shots.

[Wally450]

Some advanced metric has him as one of the best defenders, but the eye test shows that he's average.

[Im Still Ballin]

One's defensive impact can be improved by a stellar offensive influence on the game. The average offensive rating of possessions that follow a missed shot/defensive rebound is comfortably higher. Making baskets limits transition and semi-transition opportunities.

[Im Still Ballin]

What Nicky Joke needs are some tall, long, mobile, versatile PFs and SFs that can act as secondary rim protectors. Shawn Marion and Andrei Kirilenko would've been delicious on this Denver team.

[FultzNationRISE]

One's defensive impact can be improved by a stellar offensive influence on the game. The average offensive rating of possessions that follow a missed shot/defensive rebound is comfortably higher. Making baskets limits transition and semi-transition opportunities.

Very good point.

[FultzNationRISE]

What Nicky Joke needs are some tall, long, mobile, versatile PFs and SFs that can act as secondary rim protectors. Shawn Marion and Andrei Kirilenko would've been delicious on this Denver team.

Aaron Gordon fills that role pretty nicely to be fair. But the rest of the lineup is not exactly loaded with defensive talent. They need to outscore teams to win, but at least they're as built for doing it as any team this year. So they've definitely got a shot.

[j3lademaster]

One's defensive impact can be improved by a stellar offensive influence on the game. The average offensive rating of possessions that follow a missed shot/defensive rebound is comfortably higher. Making baskets limits transition and semi-transition opportunities.This. The Warriors went from bottom 5 to top 5 in defensive rating between 2020 and 2021 with the return of Steph. I wouldn't call Steph a defensive dynamo, but you need 3 or 4 guys to account for him at all times and that runs down the other team. Jokic has the same type of impact which is why defensive metrics favor him despite looking very average in terms of eye test.

And in terms of defense for a center these days it really doesn't matter if you have prime Mutombo, Gobert, Embiid or Jokic. They're going to get hunted by teams with elite perimeter players out west like the Suns, Warriors and Mavs. Especially if your big is the main contributor on the offensive end as well.

[j3lademaster]

Just going by eye test, he’s good at contesting at the rim if he’s already near it. If he gets pulled away from it, thats when guys can make a meal of him. But thats more about how the game is now for every big. It happens to DPOY Toody, and it would happen to Duncan and Ewing if they played now.

Big Body centers are just targets on defense now. More nimble KG types like Draymond or Robert Williams give you more defensive dexterity but without the low post banging and scoring ability. So it’s just the tradeoff that comes with how the game is played.well said

[Im Still Ballin]

Aaron Gordon fills that role pretty nicely to be fair. But the rest of the lineup is not exactly loaded with defensive talent. They need to outscore teams to win, but at least they're as built for doing it as any team this year. So they've definitely got a shot.

Michael Porter Jr for Pascal Siakam or OG Anunoby could be an interesting move if things don't work out for Denver.

[Xiao Yao You]

Michael Porter Jr for Pascal Siakam or OG Anunoby could be an interesting move if things don't work out for Denver.

doubt there's much interest in Porter. I certainly wouldn't do that

[dankok8]

One's defensive impact can be improved by a stellar offensive influence on the game. The average offensive rating of possessions that follow a missed shot/defensive rebound is comfortably higher. Making baskets limits transition and semi-transition opportunities.

Yes well said. And that's why you can't really look at offense and defense in a vacuum.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Compared to ATG centers, Jokic isnt moving the needle.

But that isn't the convo. Relative to the game NOW, Joker is a net + defensively. Not a liability unlike the ongoing narrative.

[Full Court]

Some advanced metric has him as one of the best defenders, but the eye test shows that he's average.

This exactly. People put waaaayyyy too much stock into these advanced metrics. He's a good rebounder, but overall he's at best an average defender. That's not to say he's not a great player, because he is, but calling him an elite defender is silly.

[tontoz]

This exactly. People put waaaayyyy too much stock into these advanced metrics. He's a good rebounder, but overall he's at best an average defender. That's not to say he's not a great player, because he is, but calling him an elite defender is silly.

He averages over 9 defensive rebounds per game so that surely has a big impact on his defensive metrics.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yes well said. And that's why you can't really look at offense and defense in a vacuum.

Yup. Here's a transcript from a Thinking Basketball video about the Warriors' defense last year. There's a 9-point difference in offensive rating between live-ball stops (steals and defensive rebounds) and all other possessions. Works in the opposite direction for Denver.


And all of these defensive stops lead to run-outs and easier shots on the other end. And this is the final dimension of the Warriors' defense: it makes their offense better.

The Warriors are 3rd in the NBA in forced turnover percentage, and they're first in offensive possessions that come after a steal or a defensive rebound. In other words, a live-ball stop that generates transition and early offense.

Why is that so important?

Well, the average offensive rating after a steal or defensive rebound is 115, but the average offensive rating on all other possessions is under 106.

So by generating so many live-ball stops, the Warriors offense starts with more high-value chances than anyone else in the league.

If they had fewer live-ball stops, say, the same rate as the Portland Trail Blazers, they'd lose about 3 points on their overall offensive rating, dropping them down from 3rd in the league to around 10th or 11th.

Yes, this defense is so good that it makes the offense that much better.