How many point guards in history have been better than Damian Lillard offensively?

[RRR3]

It can't be that many. Which ones would you say are/were better than Dame strictly speaking about offense?

[SouBeachTalents]

I would say Magic, Curry, Oscar, Nash & CP3. And at his peak, Arenas was basically on the same level.

[BigShotBob]

Oscar Robertson, Allen Iverson, Steph Curry, Gilbert Arenas, Isiah "Zeke" Thomas, Jerry West (technically since the term point guard didn't exist), Nate Archibald, Magic

[RRR3]

Oscar Robertson, Allen Iverson, Steph Curry, Gilbert Arenas, Isiah "Zeke" Thomas, Jerry West (technically since the term point guard didn't exist), Nate Archibald, Magic
:roll: :roll: :roll:


BigIdiotBob at it again

[BigShotBob]

:roll: :roll: :roll:


BigIdiotBob at it again

RRRetard showing he doesn't know basketball again. What else is new

[RRR3]

RRRetard showing he doesn't know basketball again. What else is new
Isiah Thomas was above league average efficiency ONCE in his entire career. The man was a brick artist. Lillard has been above league average efficiency every year of his career except for last year in which he was injured. He also scores vastly more, the most Thomas ever scored per 100 possessions was 27.2 points, dame is currently at 43.4 points per 100 possessions this year :yaohappy:


YOU don't know basketball.

[dankok8]

Isiah is better than Lillard offensively. Offense isn't just scoring.

[Im Still Ballin]

Isiah Thomas was above league average efficiency ONCE in his entire career. The man was a brick artist. Lillard has been above league average efficiency every year of his career except for last year in which he was injured. He also scores vastly more, the most Thomas ever scored per 100 possessions was 27.2 points, dame is currently at 43.4 points per 100 possessions this year :yaohappy:


YOU don't know basketball.

Be careful relying only on statistics. They should be used to help you understand what's going on in the game. They tell a story, but not the whole story.

Even if you look at only the statistics, it's not predominantly in Dame's favor. Isiah's advanced statistics are strong - especially in the playoffs. His advanced metrics look better than Dame's do if we value the postseason more.

[SouBeachTalents]

Be careful relying only on statistics. They should be used to help you understand what's going on in the game. They tell a story, but not the whole story.

Even if you look at only the statistics, it's not predominantly in Dame's favor. Isiah's advanced statistics are strong - especially in the playoffs. His advanced metrics look better than Dame's do if we value the postseason more.
This is honestly a good point. Despite the reputation he's built off his iconic series ending shots, Dame's had some really bad playoff performances over the course of his career.

[BigShotBob]

Isiah Thomas was above league average efficiency ONCE in his entire career. The man was a brick artist. Lillard has been above league average efficiency every year of his career except for last year in which he was injured. He also scores vastly more, the most Thomas ever scored per 100 possessions was 27.2 points, dame is currently at 43.4 points per 100 possessions this year :yaohappy:


YOU don't know basketball.

Is that why they both have almost the same exact amount of 30+ point games in the playoffs?

[Im Still Ballin]

I think we can all agree Dame is a better 3pt shooter. I'm not sure about the mid-range, though. Lillard is probably the overall better shooter but I'd need some insight from those who've watched both. Scoring in general is probably in his favor.

I think you've got to give the playmaking to Isiah. That's a huge value add.

Don't know about defense. Leadership and intangibles probably lean Zeke.

[RRR3]

I think we can all agree Dame is a better 3pt shooter. I'm not sure about the mid-range, though. Lillard is probably the overall better shooter but I'd need some insight from those who've watched both. Scoring in general is probably in his favor.

I think you've got to give the playmaking to Isiah. That's a huge value add.

Don't know about defense. Leadership and intangibles probably lean Zeke.
What the hell does defense, leadershipo etc have to do with this thread? :lol

[RRR3]

Be careful relying only on statistics. They should be used to help you understand what's going on in the game. They tell a story, but not the whole story.

Even if you look at only the statistics, it's not predominantly in Dame's favor. Isiah's advanced statistics are strong - especially in the playoffs. His advanced metrics look better than Dame's do if we value the postseason more.
Dame has never played with a stacked team, while Isiah consistently did.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Dame is averaging 32 this year? On 65%ts ?

:biggums:


Had no idea.

No doubt if he was on the Warriors they'd be the championship favorites right now. Always felt Dame was underrated

I'd put

Magic
Cp3
Nash
Harden
Cuck

Over him for sure. Could argue dame over everyone else

[RRR3]

Dame is averaging 32 this year? On 65%ts ?

:biggums:


Had no idea.

No doubt if he was on the Warriors they'd be the championship favorites right now. Always felt Dame was underrated

I'd put

Magic
Cp3
Nash
Harden
Cuck

Over him for sure. Could argue dame over everyone else
who

[tontoz]

who


His daddy aka Curry.

[Xiao Yao You]

Stockton :facepalm

[NBAGOAT]

dame hasnt played with one all star since aldridge. Any playoff success argument with dame has to be taken with a grain of salt. isiah a better playoff player but we're talking only on offense. those advanced box score metrics favor isiah but all of his edge is on defense. BPM isiah is 3.9 on offense dame is 5.1 to list one. It's true isiah gets better in playoffs and dame gets worse but their offensive numbers arent far off and that shows how big the gap is during the regular season

[bizil]

Offensive in my opinion means scoring AND passing as a package. If we are talking ONLY SCORING, Dame could be a top 5 PG of all time. But at my PG, I think guys who are TREMENOUS FLOOR GENERALS BUT can dominate scoring are more rare at this point. So on the high end of scoring (27-30 PPG) guys like Oscar, Luka, Houston Harden type guys. OR guys in that 19-24 PPG range like Magic and Isiah. Lots of people DON'T UNDERSTAND that Magic and Zeke were LEGIT alpha dog level scorers. BUT they were also the ultimate floor generals. Pass first guys whose NUMBER ONE priority is to drop dimes and be the floor general. BUT at the drop of a hat, they could go toe to toe with the best scorers in the world scoring the rock.

So for me, the formula Magic and Isiah had running the show is a PROVEN way to win titles. They proved they could be the best player on championship teams. Steph ALSO won rings with his formula as the man on his teams. If you TRULY value floor generalship, the answer should be Oscar, Magic, or Isiah. IF Harden was considered historically a PG, he's strong candidate too. Luka of course, but he's just getting started in his career. Guys like Nash and CP3 would be hella high too. If I'm looking at ONLY SCORING, I would take Curry over everybody. His brand of scoring the rock has more impact than any other PG.

[3ba11]

Isiah Thomas was above league average efficiency ONCE in his entire career. The man was a brick artist. Lillard has been above league average efficiency every year of his career except for last year in which he was injured. He also scores vastly more, the most Thomas ever scored per 100 possessions was 27.2 points, dame is currently at 43.4 points per 100 possessions this year :yaohappy:


YOU don't know basketball.


3-pointers weren't the strategy back then, so guards didn't have the 3-point line to improve their efficiency in relation to bigs, thus hurting their efficiency in relation to league average.

Isiah's biggest volume period was the 1990 title run, where he shot 47% on 3.4 attempts.. So he just needed more volume.. His 3-point percentage went up to 35% in the playoffs on 2.1 attempts (29% on 1.4 in reg season).

Also, what would stop Kyrie from being considered equal to Lillard considering his PER, WS and PPG are the same except his time of possession (ball-domination) is far less and his assisted rate is materially-higher as well - so he's a far more sophisticated scorer than Lillard.. Lillard has a high-screen-roll skillset

[LeCola]

You all forgot to say Doncic.

[ArbitraryWater]

Zeke was a nice scorer but Dame is on another level as far as scoring firepower goes.

Just not a fair comparison. Dame is a machine.

[iamgine]

How bout MVP Derrick Rose?

[ArbitraryWater]

How bout MVP Derrick Rose?

I imagine 50% of your posts are out to get some sort of reaction. Subconsciously, that drives you.

[SouBeachTalents]

I imagine 50% of your posts are out to get some sort of reaction. Subconsciously, that drives you.
Yep, he’s low key trolling a lot of the time :lol

[Kblaze8855]

Isiah Thomas was above league average efficiency ONCE in his entire career. The man was a brick artist. Lillard has been above league average efficiency every year of his career except for last year in which he was injured. He also scores vastly more, the most Thomas ever scored per 100 possessions was 27.2 points, dame is currently at 43.4 points per 100 possessions this year :yaohappy:


YOU don't know basketball.


You thinking it should be decided that way when one was in a league where the offense had him throwing entry passes to even role player bigs and watching and the other has the greenest light in basketball history….to the point he can literally take off the dribble 45 footers…miss…and nobody has issue?

It doesn’t suggest you know very much yourself.

And even if it were ignored the fact that offense isn’t just scoring can’t be.

Dame had zero assists last night in 39 minutes. Zeke took 12 years to have a non injury exited zero assist game and that was only because he left a game in a blowout win at the end of his career.

Tell Dame to throw it in to James Edwards or Dantley and watch instead of doing whatever he wants all game….in a league with 10 times the spacing. See if the numbers change a bit.

Whoever you pick there is good reason not to leave it to numbers.

Early in his career when he had the same kind of “We’re gonna lose so go do whatever you want” Freedom Dame has he was putting up like 22/14 because even at the insane pace he played he didn’t shoot much and looked to get others involved.

Totally different kinds of players. Just how pass first Isiah was is lost in the numbers because people check stats and assume he was trying to score all the time. If you watched him in his prime there were times he wouldn’t shoot at all for 2 quarters but have 14 in a quick run when he felt they needed it and go back to passing. Isiah was way more of a play maker than either his scoring or assists numbers make modern fans believe. He didn’t have the ball as much as you probably think he did either.

just how differently he played compared to dame or most modern point guards is hard to explain. It doesn’t feel like it reading stats but he was closer to Nash, Kidd, or Stockton when they were winning then he was to todays attack all day lead guards. Ultimate pick your spots point. He might end up taking 16 shots but you would barely even notice a lot of them. He didn’t just dribble away and shoot and appear to dominate the ball and the scoring.

It just looks that way in highlights. I remember Barkley and Dominique both listing Isiah as who they wish they could’ve played with and Barkley said he never played with the supreme point guard like that who made plays and somebody said he played with Kevin Johnson(who averaged more assists at times) and he explained how the assists don’t mean you play like a passer first.

As such a Westbrook hater I suspect you can get that. It really is kind of hard to explain but that guy was running his team to win not out there stacking numbers. Give him a team with 9 shooters and an unchecked green light to score and run pick and rolls all day and look for his shot first his numbers would obviously be different.

What was expected of them really is too different to make the comparison nothing but that

[Charlie Sheen]

As such a Westbrook hater I suspect you can get that. It really is kind of hard to explain but that guy was running his team to win not out there stacking numbers. Give him a team with 9 shooters and an unchecked green light to score and run pick and rolls all day and look for his shot first his numbers would obviously be different.


For people who were too young to catch zeke I think Sam Cassell is another good point of reference. There haven't been many better players at getting teammates the ball in positions they can do damage and getting himself in a position to make plays when he doesnt have the ball. Sam had all the tools of a scorer when he needed to be one too.

[RRR3]

I hate CURRENT Westbrook because he refuses to admit he’s declined and adapt his game. I was a big fan of him in his prime.

[Manny98]

Curry
Nash
CP3
Magic
Luka

[John8204]

It's a tough question...what do you do with John Stockton who wasn't as great a scorer but his vision allowed for his 1/2/3 options to always put up great numbers.

Isiah is in the same boat, more of a playmaker who assaulted the basket something I'm not sure Dame does.

Oscar and Curry are obviously better than Dame

[3ba11]

Penny and a lot of point guards from prior eras were superior but simply played in the wrong era where the court wasn't optimal for ball-handlers like it is now, aka wide open spacing, wide open paint, hands-off defense, no defense mandate (no impeding)

Today's game is a contact-less affair that looks more like a marching band or dance routine with the neat spacing and contact-less movements.. It's a beginner format designed for guys like Lillard to dominate the ball, come off screens and light it up.. Isiah would easily be superior in this format along with Penny and many more.

[j3lademaster]

Curry is the only one I can say for sure. Obviously, this is purely offense and not factoring in defense, winning intangibles, leadership etc. Lillard has a strong case over just about anyone else.

Maybe Nash? Solely based on how reliable he was as a playoff performer vs Dame.

edit: how can I forget Magic? wow

[1987_Lakers]

Curry
Nash
CP3
Magic
Luka

This. You can add Big O as well.

I feel Nash these days gets kinda underrated. At his peak he was a monster on the offensive end.

[Jasper]

off the top of my head MVP Rose

[Xiao Yao You]

It's a tough question...what do you do with John Stockton who wasn't as great a scorer but his vision allowed for his 1/2/3 options to always put up great numbers.

Isiah is in the same boat, more of a playmaker who assaulted the basket something I'm not sure Dame does.

Oscar and Curry are obviously better than Dame

what do you do with a guy that averaged 10.5 assists a game? Few ever reach that mark for a season. He did it for 19 years. Shot 52% from the field. Is Kidd better because he averaged more points on a horrible %? 38% from 3. This thread has been who has scored the most from the pg position not who's the best offensively

[dankok8]

Without any hesitation:

Magic
Oscar
Curry
Nash
Isiah
CP3

People are acting like Isiah is a controversial one but he's one of the best playmakers ever whereas Lillard is more of a SG in a PG body. And Isiah has a way better playoff resume to the point where it's just not close.

Honestly Lillard is a more of a combo guard to me the way he plays. Either way his impact trails those six guys above.

[jayfan]

He's no more a point guard than Kevin Durant or Lebron James are.

[j3lademaster]

He's no more a point guard than Kevin Durant or Lebron James are.Don't be that guy.

When you say "pg" it obviously means someone listed at the position that typically brings the ball up, which Dame is. Not everyone has to be Stockton or Cousy, let's not turn this into some boring discussion of "what it means to be a pg".

[jayfan]

Don't be that guy.

When you say "pg" it obviously means someone listed at the position that typically brings the ball up, which Dame is. Not everyone has to be Stockton or Cousy, let's not turn this into some boring discussion of "what it means to be a pg".

I know what a point guard is. And Dame isn't a good one. Great shooter, though.

[bizil]

The thing with score first PG's in this era is the ONLY ONE who has won a ring as his team's best player is Steph. A huge reason for that is BECAUSE one of the best passing PF's EVER in Draymond is on that squad. So Steph, Klay, and the other guards on the team DIDN'T have to worry about being the team primary facilitator.

Kyrie is a great player. A score first PG. BUT he won a ring as his team's 2nd best player. And had arguably the best passing forward ever in Bron being the primary facilitator. So as great as some of these score first PG's are as players, the JURY IS STILL OUT if you can win with them as their team's best player. I still think the IDEAL type of PG to win a ring as their team's best player are the ones who are great floor generals AND alpha dog level scorers in one. They kill two birds with one stone. As I said earlier, Steph is the exception to the rule. And him having an all time great passing PF besides him was HUGE in their success.

[StrongLurk]

Lillard's biggest problem is he has had a ton of playoff disappointments and dropoffs in play. That has really got to count...not this currently bhullshit YMCA regular season we have.

[paksat]

I know what a point guard is. And Dame isn't a good one. Great shooter, though.

he really isn't a GREAT shooter tho, 37% from 3 give or take since he came in the league. That's what cp3 shoot for his career from downtown and no one praises him for being an elite shooter from outside.

I was surprised to see his % that low, you'd think based on what you hear he would be at 40% at the least.

[j3lademaster]

he really isn't a GREAT shooter tho, 37% from 3 give or take since he came in the league. That's what cp3 shoot for his career from downtown and no one praises him for being an elite shooter from outside.

I was surprised to see his % that low, you'd think based on what you hear he would be at 40% at the least.Because volume. And don't pretend they get defendedthe same way.

[RRR3]

Dame not being a great shooter is hilarious. Paktass is always good for a few laughs.

[paksat]

Dame not being a great shooter is hilarious. Paktass is always good for a few laughs.

37 percent is not great, never has been never will be but sure continue with the personal attacks instead of addressing the thread

[paksat]

John Stockton shot a higher percentage from 3 than dame, and we all know he didn't practice it at nearly the same rate dame does.


Great shooter, lul

[j3lademaster]

37 percent is not great, never has been never will be but sure continue with the personal attacks instead of addressing the threadIt's not great for a spot up shooter, but for someone who is taking step backs, off the dribble, pulling from the logo and taking 11 attempts it's certainly great.

[AlternativeAcc.]

37 percent is not great, never has been never will be but sure continue with the personal attacks instead of addressing the thread

On 11 attempts per game it is great. 92% from the line too

His best seasons from 3 are actually when he shoots the highest volume.

He's an elite shooter. It's not a debate.

[paksat]

It's not great for a spot up shooter, but for someone who is taking step backs, off the dribble, pulling from the logo and taking 11 attempts it's certainly great.

So what's curry doing then since he's 5 percentage points ahead? Which is MONSTROUS. Is he not taking the same shots and making FAR more? Dame is a chucker mate, it's okay. It's why he's a failure in the playoffs

[j3lademaster]

So what's curry doing then since he's 5 percentage points ahead? Which is MONSTROUS. Is he not taking the same shots and making FAR more? Dame is a chucker mate, it's okay. It's why he's a failure in the playoffsWhat is this strawman? No one brought up Curry, he's the undisputed goat shooter.

edit: if Curry is your standard for being a "great shooter" then yeah, he's the only one in history.

[RRR3]

John Stockton shot a higher percentage from 3 than dame, and we all know he didn't practice it at nearly the same rate dame does.


Great shooter, lul
Stockton a better shooter than Dame :oldlol:

Holy shit you’re a moron

[AlternativeAcc.]

So what's curry doing then since he's 5 percentage points ahead? Which is MONSTROUS. Is he not taking the same shots and making FAR more? Dame is a chucker mate, it's okay. It's why he's a failure in the playoffs
His true shooting % has been above league average every year except once. This year he's in elite territory on extremely high volume

PGs on average have the lowest TS% of any position, so him being above league average every year on high volume is noteworthy. You don't know what a chucker is.

[dankok8]

Dame is not an all-time great 3pt shooter but he's shooting 1.5% above league average for his career which isn't that small of a gap and makes his TS% quite good.

[paksat]

What is this strawman? No one brought up Curry, he's the undisputed goat shooter.

edit: if Curry is your standard for being a "great shooter" then yeah, he's the only one in history.



Curry is elite, ray Allen is elite, Reggie Miller is great to elite. All 40 percent which is where you need to be. Can't be shooting 37 percent and be great, that's good not great. Stop pulling up from the fcking logo if you want a better percentage. There is a certain point where it's called a dumb shot. Jordan could have took stupid shots and probably scored more, but his shooting percentage is what it is because he doesn't do stupid shit.

Ben fcking Gordon is around 40 percent, another player not at currys level but takes smart shots. You can try and say he's amazing all you want but just because you hoist shots from everywhere doesn't mean you're great that's not how it works.

Not even replying to this fcking virgin rrr3 anymore.

[Xiao Yao You]

His true shooting % has been above league average every year except once. This year he's in elite territory on extremely high volume

PGs on average have the lowest TS% of any position, so him being above league average every year on high volume is noteworthy. You don't know what a chucker is.

I do

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs1.ibtimes.com%2Fsites%2Fwww.ibti mes.com%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Fembed%2Fpublic%2F2020%2 F11%2F21%2Fjordan-clarkson-00-utah-jazz.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=8beab8bc1b39c44edb2a6cf312e812545435e9901acc77 fc7ca9d481784f7b35&ipo=images

[j3lademaster]

I do

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs1.ibtimes.com%2Fsites%2Fwww.ibti mes.com%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Fembed%2Fpublic%2F2020%2 F11%2F21%2Fjordan-clarkson-00-utah-jazz.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=8beab8bc1b39c44edb2a6cf312e812545435e9901acc77 fc7ca9d481784f7b35&ipo=imagesStackhouse is my go-to when I think about chuckers.

[j3lademaster]

Curry is elite, ray Allen is elite, Reggie Miller is great to elite. All 40 percent which is where you need to be. Can't be shooting 37 percent and be great, that's good not great. Stop pulling up from the fcking logo if you want a better percentage. There is a certain point where it's called a dumb shot. Jordan could have took stupid shots and probably scored more, but his shooting percentage is what it is because he doesn't do stupid shit.

Ben fcking Gordon is around 40 percent, another player not at currys level but takes smart shots. You can try and say he's amazing all you want but just because you hoist shots from everywhere doesn't mean you're great that's not how it works.

Not even replying to this fcking virgin rrr3 anymore.But we're not discussing shot IQ or anything. We're discussing if he's a great shooter or not. For me it's not an arbitrary number like 40%, Lebron shot that for a season and I would only go as far as average- MAYBE above avg- for his 3 point shooting. It's how the defense gameplans for you. Very few players get defended behind the arc like Dame does, and he still will hit 4 a night. Portland's offense relies on him taking those shots and drawing that kind of gravity.

[CountDracula]

“Now you make sure you tell Baby Boy Lillard. I burned the money. Cause, it ain’t about that paper. It’s about me hurtin’ his people and messin’ with his world. Tell that boy he ain’t man enough to come down to the street with The Crossing Guard! You tell him that!”

-Tim “The Crossing Guard” Hardaway

https://i.ibb.co/L1BDYpX/861266-C8-A70-E-4-E6-D-B71-F-4-CEFA3-B2-F981.jpg (https://ibb.co/yqKmdsc)

https://i.ibb.co/kQGMHp5/25-E90-EB4-51-E8-476-C-9-F8-A-062-C994-A8-EE1.jpg (https://ibb.co/TmwrvZY)

https://i.ibb.co/9g4731n/E601-CB08-4-F98-4-F5-B-B50-D-1-B87-B2-EE4-B1-E.gif (https://imgbb.com/)

[SouBeachTalents]

CountCringula with more whack photos.

[KNOW1EDGE]

So far the only names mentioned you could argue are on the same level with Lillard offensively would be Curry and Iverson.

[RRR3]

CountCringula with more whack photos.
Whose alt is that anyways

[John8204]

So far the only names mentioned you could argue are on the same level with Lillard offensively would be Curry and Iverson.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html

1 and 2 is Curry and Oscar the highest you could rank Dame is third and AI was a SG not a PG. Dame has 2 30PPG seasons...Oscar has 6.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Don't like ranking players pre 80s. Or players I really haven't watched...

Magic, Curry, Chris Paul and maybe mid 2000s Nash (maybe depending on what my team makeup is). Not a whole lot tbh

[iamgine]

How about last season Trae Young?