Paul George on playing defense today vs when he came in.

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2303110216220337.jpeg

[Kblaze8855]

And he was drafted in 2010 a few years after we were all complaining how much they opened the game up for perimeter players when all those guys were doing 30ppg all of a sudden and past their prime people like Iverson were going 33 a night. Imagine how he’d feel if he came up playing in the early 2000s East with teams having 39 points in the fourth quarter of playoff games.

[Kblaze8855]

And for the record, let me add that people were complaining about too much defense before they changed the rules so I’m not suggesting there is a perfect fix. I’m not sure when the sweet spot was. But this was the conversation before the changes:




The other night, during one of the defensive struggles that have characterized these NBA playoffs, particularly in the Eastern Conference, ABC/ESPN analyst Doc Rivers said, "We might just see a team go scoreless for an entire quarter." I was waiting for Rivers or his broadcast partner to laugh, but neither did, and for a good reason. Doc wasn't joking. Given what we've seen this postseason — winning teams at times barely reaching 70 points and the Pistons blocking 19 shots in a game — it seems increasingly possible some team could go scoreless.
There's a wonderful irony where pro basketball is concerned. Those who serenade college basketball and find it necessary to reduce the pro game in the process, do so usually by saying with great smugness that "the pros don't play defense."
Of course, this seems particularly stupid now. For the last six weeks, all the NBA has given us is defense. Forwards swoop in to make game-changing blocks of layups in the final seconds. The Nets scored 56 points against the Pistons earlier this month. In the olden days, like 10 years ago, Michael Jordan scored that all by himself in a playoff game. The Nets, by quarters in that game, scored 14, 11, 14 and 17 points. New Orleans scored 63 points in a game against Miami. Okay, you say, that's just the Eastern Conference? Well, the Lakers, the presumptive Western Conference champs and a team with four future Hall of Fame players, have scored 71, 72 and 74 points in the playoffs . . . and they won two of those games.

Tim Legler, the former Bullets guard who now analyzes games for ESPN, said yesterday on this topic, "Is the object of the game to score more than your opponent, or to prevent your opponent from scoring more points than you score?"

[Kblaze8855]

. I told Legler my theory, that defense is simply better now than it was 10 years ago, that it's played harder, with more contention and confrontation. And he said, "In 1990, when I came into the league, a lot more guys made a living playing offense. Now, because there are so many fewer skilled players in the NBA, to make a living they have to play just that hard on defense . . . The league has gotten so much younger, and there are so many guys coming in from high school who've only been coached by a gym teacher that they don't know the nuances of spacing and ball reversal and cutting without the ball."

Legler totally rejects the notion that the league is loaded with better defenders than it was 15 years ago. "The best defensive team I ever faced," he said, "were the Bulls with Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman and Ron Harper. Each of those guys was either the best or one of the best defensive players in the league at his position. Each could guard two or three positions. I don't believe these teams now are better than those Bulls . . . or than the Celtics when Dennis Johnson and Robert Parish and Kevin McHale were there."


You know who started all this stuff don't you? Pat Riley, that's who.
"Riley did it," Legler said with great certainty. Legler knows this because he played against Riley's Knicks teams, which featured "Force Basketball." The first NBA Finals (of the modern era) that were offensively challenged came in 1994, when Riley's Knicks played Houston. Neither team scored 100 points in any game. (God, I love pinning blame on Riley!) You know the previous time that happened? When Minneapolis and Syracuse played in the 1954 Finals. That Knicks-Rockets series set pro basketball back 40 years. And it still hasn't recovered, not really.


Let me say right here and now, though I dearly love pro basketball, I was never much for the 148-142 kind of playoff games the Lakers and Celtics sometime played. There was no real premium for scoring a basket. It simply ought to be more difficult than it was in the '70s. I like defense. And Chuck Daly, Riley, and Doug Collins/Phil Jackson raised it to an art form. I love seeing Richard Jefferson block Chauncey Billups's layup with the game on the line. I love seeing Tayshaun Prince come from mid-court to block Reggie Miller's layup, which may be the play that changes the series. I love seeing a guy like Ben Wallace, who has no offensive skills to speak of, make himself invaluable by simply playing defense like his life depends on it.


But first one to 70 points does seem a little too throwback.
"Those games are interesting," Legler said, "because they're very close, not because of the quality of the games. Zones are a big, big factor. Everything is clogged up all the time. Kevin Garnett was sitting back in Shaq's lap while Karl Malone was virtually unguarded (at the top of the circle). I can't believe this is good for the game. . . . I can't believe a guy just sitting back watching the game and having a beer thinks this is appealing. How can anybody say that it is?"




That article from 04 added just for context. People are gonna bitch about something no matter what you do.

[dankok8]

I think the NBA from 1997-2004 was a bit too defensively minded to the point where most perimeter players really struggled to score efficiently. And since 2017 or so it's gotten way way too offensively minded. I think the sweet spots were from 1985-1996 and then 2005-2013. The league was balanced where both sides of the ball were allowed to thrive. But honestly if I had to choose I even prefer the game being too defensive than too offensive. But that's just me...

[RRR3]

And he was drafted in 2010 a few years after we were all complaining how much they opened the game up for perimeter players when all those guys were doing 30ppg all of a sudden and past their prime people like Iverson were going 33 a night. Imagine how he’d feel if he came up playing in the early 2000s East with teams having 39 points in the fourth quarter of playoff games.
Iverson was “past his prime” at 30? :kobe:

The late 90s early 2000s was an extreme outlier, defenses have never been that dominant in any other period.

[Kblaze8855]

He had lost a step by then yes. He was still quick but he’s probably quick now.

[Full Court]

Yep, a lot of us have been saying this for a while now. The game is so skewed in favor of offense that it's taken away from the beauty of the game in a lot of ways.

[RRR3]

He had lost a step by then yes. He was still quick but he’s probably quick now.
"Losing a step" doesn't mean you're past your prime. Do you think LeBron was past his prime in 2018?

Also like I and dankok 97-04 is an extreme outlier historically, idk why you're acting like that level of offensive ineptitude was ever normal.

[Kblaze8855]

We really need to argue about the difference between having lost a step and being past your prime? That’s how you want to spend the next 45 posts? Because I really don’t.


And how am I acting like the defense in 2004 was normal while I am posting entire articles of people talking about how abnormal the defense had become then and pointing out that people complained then and now?

My entire point is people are gonna bitch either way.

[eliteballer]

Just watch it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPXSqOhykg

[Phoenix]

Iverson was “past his prime” at 30? :kobe:

The late 90s early 2000s was an extreme outlier, defenses have never been that dominant in any other period.

He was still in his prime, but without those 2004 rule changes it's not likely his scoring and especially his efficiency markedly improves as we saw, especially since being a 6 foot( generously) guard doesn't really allow a redefining of scoring skillset like you saw with a Jordan or Kobe. Iverson at 30/31 was basically playing the same style as he was at 25 when he won MVP, albeit with a drop in speed and overall athleticism. It's very likely that if you dropped 2001 Iverson into 2006 that Kobe has some serious competition for the scoring title that year.

[DMAVS41]

"Losing a step" doesn't mean you're past your prime. Do you think LeBron was past his prime in 2018?

Also like I and dankok 97-04 is an extreme outlier historically, idk why you're acting like that level of offensive ineptitude was ever normal.

Iverson was definitely not the same player he was at 30. Just obvious to anyone watching. Still great and still fast/quick as hell, but it wasn't the same.

The defense definitely started to hurt the game in terms of how fun it was to watch in the early 00's and into 04. The rules needed a change...I thought they went too far in 05 and 06...felt it settled back a little in the late 00's...but it's been pretty bad the last decade or so in my opinion.

Blaze is absolutely right that people complain either way, but just as the early 00's were clearly too defensive oriented...right now the league is too offensive oriented.

[Jasper]

can't remember the last time I saw PG play defense !!!

[Bankaii]

Paul George was also “recalling” the 2013 ECF versus Miami and had multiple facts incorrect…in a series he played in.

He’s someone that just likes to talk.

[1987_Lakers]

Paul George was also “recalling” the 2013 ECF versus Miami and had multiple facts incorrect…in a series he played in.

He’s someone that just likes to talk.

Other than JJ Redick & Jerry West, it's hard to take some former & current players serious.

[Phoenix]

Iverson was definitely not the same player he was at 30. Just obvious to anyone watching. Still great and still fast/quick as hell, but it wasn't the same.

The defense definitely started to hurt the game in terms of how fun it was to watch in the early 00's and into 04. The rules needed a change...I thought they went too far in 05 and 06...felt it settled back a little in the late 00's...but it's been pretty bad the last decade or so in my opinion.

Blaze is absolutely right that people complain either way, but just as the early 00's were clearly too defensive oriented...right now the league is too offensive oriented.

I'd be curious how far to the middle going back on those 2005 rules changes takes things, while still allowing for modern ball-handling rules and what is now the pandora's box of 3point happy offenses. Right now it's a tale of two extremes. If you're going to allow the offensive player the means to carry the fukk outta the ball and 'legally' travel, at least re-allow handchecking. Right now they've completely neutered straight up man defense compared to prior eras.

I also think they could go back on the rule from a few years ago where the shot-clock resets to 14 rather than 24 on offensive rebounds.

[ImKobe]

He's absolutely right. Pacers had a defense on par with the '08 Celtics and were only 4 points off the '04 Pistons squad despite the rule changes. The best defense in the league now is almost 11 points worse per 100 compared to the '14 Pacers. That's alarming. I know they changed some rules but the best defense in the league is giving up 110 per 100 right now.

[Kblaze8855]

I kinda would like to see those pacers out here now. Would Roy Hibbert even play? Weird to say that about so recent a team.

[DMAVS41]

I kinda would like to see those pacers out here now. Would Roy Hibbert even play? Weird to say that about so recent a team.

Hibbert would definitely not play now imo.

[2much_knowledge]

He's absolutely right. Pacers had a defense on par with the '08 Celtics and were only 4 points off the '04 Pistons squad despite the rule changes. The best defense in the league now is almost 11 points worse per 100 compared to the '14 Pacers. That's alarming. I know they changed some rules but the best defense in the league is giving up 110 per 100 right now.

Thats very interesting. But not surprising. How many years it took from Wilt/D.Thompson to the next two over 70 point games? (Robinson/Kobe) and then Kobe to booker. Meanwhile we got 2 of them in a 2/3 month span....

[Micku]

I think the NBA from 1997-2004 was a bit too defensively minded to the point where most perimeter players really struggled to score efficiently. And since 2017 or so it's gotten way way too offensively minded. I think the sweet spots were from 1985-1996 and then 2005-2013. The league was balanced where both sides of the ball were allowed to thrive. But honestly if I had to choose I even prefer the game being too defensive than too offensive. But that's just me...

I agree on everything except for the end. I go back and forward with it.

I remember how the late 90s and early 00s were. They were....grit and grind man. Like I remember some quarters, they would have under 20 pts. It was not uncommon to have 15-19 points only in the first quarter. There was a lot of killing the clock, and post-play. But I hated the iso ball. There was a lot of it seems, but that's based upon memory. Although I love post play, I think the fluid motion now with the ball and off movement is really fun to watch.

But, I do miss the different play styles. Like we still have it in today's league obviously, but back then there were more obvious play styles. Even going to the late 00s. The Lakers played the triangle, Suns had the 7 seconds or less/high tempo, Cavs had LeBron ball lol, Pistons were grit and grind, Celtics were defense first, Magic was inside and out basketball.

And if the defense back then was more intense, it was more special to find those superstars that were different from the rest.

The NBA could make basketball more like the Euroleague. Shorten the top 3pt line, to decrease the spacing. No more 3 defensive sec. They could implement hand-checking, but I think that would be a bad idea. I don't think the league would want to go back to the late 90s and early 00s.

Like you said, the sweet spot was like mid 80s to early 90s and late 00s to early 10s. I think they had to change the rules from the early 00s. It was too defensive. But now it's too offense friendly. Hopefully, the league will find a nice balance in the future.

[dankok8]

I agree on everything except for the end. I go back and forward with it.

I remember how the late 90s and early 00s were. They were....grit and grind man. Like I remember some quarters, they would have under 20 pts. It was not uncommon to have 15-19 points only in the first quarter. There was a lot of killing the clock, and post-play. But I hated the iso ball. There was a lot of it seems, but that's based upon memory. Although I love post play, I think the fluid motion now with the ball and off movement is really fun to watch.

But, I do miss the different play styles. Like we still have it in today's league obviously, but back then there were more obvious play styles. Even going to the late 00s. The Lakers played the triangle, Suns had the 7 seconds or less/high tempo, Cavs had LeBron ball lol, Pistons were grit and grind, Celtics were defense first, Magic was inside and out basketball.

And if the defense back then was more intense, it was more special to find those superstars that were different from the rest.

The NBA could make basketball more like the Euroleague. Shorten the top 3pt line, to decrease the spacing. No more 3 defensive sec. They could implement hand-checking, but I think that would be a bad idea. I don't think the league would want to go back to the late 90s and early 00s.

Like you said, the sweet spot was like mid 80s to early 90s and late 00s to early 10s. I think they had to change the rules from the early 00s. It was too defensive. But now it's too offense friendly. Hopefully, the league will find a nice balance in the future.

I just said that I prefer the 1997-2004 slugfest over the current NBA. The grit made you feel like the game was more competitive. Now dudes are jacking up threes and the competitive level of the league has dropped too. Since the KD Warriors, we haven't had an all-time great team for 4 seasons now. Any team can get hot shooting the ball and beat any other team or at least it feels like that. When a bunch of good shooters are hoisting up threes, the variance in shooting affects the results dramatically. It's just not that fun to watch.

They can just try something to increase physicality and then adjust if needed.

Honestly though I think they're not gonna change it. They want modern stars to put up better stats because it hypes up the modern NBA. It also extends the longevity of legends still playing in the league.

[RRR3]

Iverson was definitely not the same player he was at 30. Just obvious to anyone watching. Still great and still fast/quick as hell, but it wasn't the same.

The defense definitely started to hurt the game in terms of how fun it was to watch in the early 00's and into 04. The rules needed a change...I thought they went too far in 05 and 06...felt it settled back a little in the late 00's...but it's been pretty bad the last decade or so in my opinion.

Blaze is absolutely right that people complain either way, but just as the early 00's were clearly too defensive oriented...right now the league is too offensive oriented.
Pretty bad the last decade or so? You thought there wasn’t enough defense in 2013? :biggums: Brook Lopez averaged 19.4 PPG that year and he was 10th in the league. Do you want 72-68 games?

[ShawkFactory]

Pretty bad the last decade or so? You thought there wasn’t enough defense in 2013? :biggums: Brook Lopez averaged 19.4 PPG that year and he was 10th in the league. Do you want 72-68 games?

Yea the ridiculous no defense, 3pt jacking era didn't fully take off until 2017 or so.

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t really care what the final scores are. I just want to feel like the incredible things I see people do is because they are incredible. Not because the league set out to make it easier to do incredible things. Obviously great players are exceptional and it’s not easy to dominate. If anybody could do it, the people who don’t make the NBA would be in the NBA making millions. But what they have done is build a league so tailored to the offense the top league in the world is the easiest to score in. Guys from the bottom of the rotation to the stars like Luka will tell you to a man it’s easier to go crazy in nba games than it is playing worse players in other leagues.


The league in the past would generally go the other direction. Wilt is unstoppable if you let him post up too close so we wide the lane. College ball saw Kareem as a freshman play the national champion varsity team in an exhibition and score like 56 and outlawed dunking for a decade(which just made him better because it forced him to use the sky hook). The NBA saw that because of the man-to-man defense rules, offenses would put people on the other side of the floor to let a star go one on one so they implemented illegal offense rules so you can’t just have Wilkins or somebody like that murder some guy without help. Barkley couldn’t be stopped posting up for 10 seconds so they make the 5 second backdown rule. Shaq ran wild on the league so they got rid of the old rules and allowed you to double off the ball and play zones.


It was a give and take and yes the league helped offenses at times too but like I said…give and take. Now it’s all one way. The league would respond to dominance by trying to level the playing field, not searching for a way to make the dominant players even more dominant at the expense of defenses already overwhelmed.



How do they watch guys like Kobe, Lebron, Wade and so on and decide the wings need more freedom to operate? Weren’t they unstoppable enough?

How do they respond to accurate claims their stars travel all the time by rewriting the rules to add a “zero” step so it’s 0-1-2 not 1-2-3 when you pickup your dribble? How are you supposed to guard somebody like Giannis when you legalize a three step euro step?

How is the solution….making it EASIER on guys already the best?


I just can’t understand it. When you’re trying to show how great your players are having them play easier games doesn’t seem rational….until you realize they’re catering to generations out here now and many more to come who don’t remember it being any different. They just see somebody dropped 70 and have no idea why older generations aren’t as blown away as they should be.

The only people old enough to compare and contrast just get labeled as haters by young people who don’t know anything but what they see now.

They rigged it to help the offenses that didn’t need it because their stars were already amazing. But amazing wasn’t enough. Why have amazing stars when you could have unstoppable stars to put in front of a generation who genuinely doesn’t understand that anything other than sheer talent can be a factor?

It’s probably good for business. Especially once everybody over 35 or so is too old to be a factor in the desired demographics.

[Full Court]

Other than JJ Redick & Jerry West, it's hard to take some former & current players serious.

It's also hard to take you serious with the numerous things you've gotten wrong.

[DMAVS41]

Pretty bad the last decade or so? You thought there wasn’t enough defense in 2013? :biggums: Brook Lopez averaged 19.4 PPG that year and he was 10th in the league. Do you want 72-68 games?

What does what Brook Lopez is averaging have to do with anything?

I don't want it as easy as it has been on offensive players since roughly the 06 season.

Did you really watch, 06, for example...and conclude...yea, that is how basketball should be played...anytime you impede the movement at all of an offensive wing player...it's a foul. So you either foul all the time or you don't play good enough defense to even bother the great players.

I'm a huge Wade fan and obviously a huge Mavericks fan...but regardless, that 06 finals was a joke at the time in terms of how hard it was to defend perimeter players. As Blaze just pointed out...how is the solution to make it even harder to stop them?

I get not liking the early 00's...it was too defensive oriented imo, but to answer your question...yea, I'd rather have that than what we have now.

[ArbitraryWater]

Every single star had their career year in 2006 lol.


It was a joke.

[RRR3]

What does what Brook Lopez is averaging have to do with anything?

I don't want it as easy as it has been on offensive players since roughly the 06 season.

Did you really watch, 06, for example...and conclude...yea, that is how basketball should be played...anytime you impede the movement at all of an offensive wing player...it's a foul. So you either foul all the time or you don't play good enough defense to even bother the great players.

I'm a huge Wade fan and obviously a huge Mavericks fan...but regardless, that 06 finals was a joke at the time in terms of how hard it was to defend perimeter players. As Blaze just pointed out...how is the solution to make it even harder to stop them?

I get not liking the early 00's...it was too defensive oriented imo, but to answer your question...yea, I'd rather have that than what we have now.
^likes watching hideous basketball. Imagine thinking the 2013 season had too much offense lmfao.

[Kblaze8855]

Missed shots and lower scores are only automatically hideous basketball to the kind of person who only believes the team that has the ball is playing basketball. To people who accept and respect that all 10 people are playing basketball at the same time? It’s easy to acknowledge that a stop is also playing well. A team of people who were literally all the best player in their city or state or at times the nation…being shut down? It takes excellent basketball to do that. But todays fans aren’t wired that way. The nba saw to that.

[DMAVS41]

^likes watching hideous basketball. Imagine thinking the 2013 season had too much offense lmfao.

I honestly don't know what you are even arguing. I'm talking about the rules for offensive players in general since the early 00's. I'm not talking about an individual season only nor did I ever say anything about Brook Lopez's ppg.

I simply want defenses to have a decent shot at stopping guys without being called for a foul immediately. These offensive stars were already unreal good and damn near impossible to stop.

Could not agree more with Blaze...why make it easier on them?

Also, I love Luka and the Mavs...but you know what sucks watching? When Luka barely gets touched or not touched at all...and he whines like a baby when he doesn't get the call. Why does he do that? For one, because it seems to get him more calls, but two...because that is the soft NBA that has been created. If stars get touched...they expect a call...why????? Because the NBA gives them a bunch of touch foul calls every ****ing night.

It is currently not a great product in the regular season. It gets a lot better in the playoffs, which is good, but it's only a great product for people that like watching guys face little resistance night in night out while putting up insane numbers.

All opinion...mine is that I don't like it all that much.

[Kblaze8855]

I really just wanna know what they were watching. They watch the Mavs or Kings play


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DistortedRingedBunny-size_restricted.gif


and think “This isn’t fun enough” or maybe was it “If we open up the game everyone will play like this!”?


Did they watch Kobe go on a rampage in 03 or Tmac drop 60 and Vince and AI and think….”This is good….but what if we made it so every team seems to have one of these guys?”.

I just wanna know the thought process. They couldn’t allow diversity? Teams to win with D or by blowing you out?

Not like everyone was the 04 Pistons. The contrasting styles was part of what made matchups exciting.

[DMAVS41]

Exactly Blaze.

The 03 Mavs, for example, had an offensive rating of 110.7...which I believe was one of the few best in NBA history at the time. That would still have been above average all the way through the 2020 season...now it would be below average.

Again, the notion that the 03 Mavs just weren't fun to watch on offense and it was "hideous basketball" is just silly....it was way more fun, imo, because it was earned against tough as shit defensive rules...and they still really couldn't be stopped.

Now, as you point out, they have created a league in which the average team scores better than the 03 Mavs.

I understand that some of that is inevitable with the spacing and mathematical understanding of the 3 point shot value...and role players getting better....but, that is the exact reason you wouldn't make it easier. If anything, you'd make it harder...because of the above.

And it isn't just the stats or ratings...it is watching a product where you know how easy they make it on offensive players. Can't crowd them, can't body them, can't land near them, extra step on offense...if you do...foul, foul, foul...so what happens? You stop fouling, follow the rules, and get torched...even if you are good on defense.

At least in the regular season, the playoffs still revert back to better standards imo.

[Kblaze8855]

Exactly Blaze.

The 03 Mavs, for example, had an offensive rating of 110.7...which I believe was one of the few best in NBA history at the time. That would still have been above average all the way through the 2020 season...now it would be below average.

Again, the notion that the 03 Mavs just weren't fun to watch on offense and it was "hideous basketball" is just silly....it was way more fun, imo, because it was earned against tough as shit defensive rules...and they still really couldn't be stopped.

Now, as you point out, they have created a league in which every team scores better than the 03 Mavs.

I understand that some of that is inevitable with the spacing and mathematical understanding of the 3 point shot value...and role players getting better....but, that is the exact reason you wouldn't make it easier. If anything, you'd make it harder...because of the above.


That’s the crazy thing to me. How do you both advertise that the players are better than ever…and feel like you need to make it easier to prosper?

[DMAVS41]

That’s the crazy thing to me. How do you both advertise that the players are better than ever…and feel like you need to make it easier to prosper?

Good point.

That is an interesting contradiction. That is why I said role players. Just from watching, I do believe role players are better now. The stars? I don't know. It is tough, as you always point out, you just can't go by the numbers because it just isn't the same.

[NBAGOAT]

Exactly Blaze.

The 03 Mavs, for example, had an offensive rating of 110.7...which I believe was one of the few best in NBA history at the time. That would still have been above average all the way through the 2020 season...now it would be below average.

Again, the notion that the 03 Mavs just weren't fun to watch on offense and it was "hideous basketball" is just silly....it was way more fun, imo, because it was earned against tough as shit defensive rules...and they still really couldn't be stopped.

Now, as you point out, they have created a league in which the average team scores better than the 03 Mavs.

I understand that some of that is inevitable with the spacing and mathematical understanding of the 3 point shot value...and role players getting better....but, that is the exact reason you wouldn't make it easier. If anything, you'd make it harder...because of the above.

And it isn't just the stats or ratings...it is watching a product where you know how easy they make it on offensive players. Can't crowd them, can't body them, can't land near them, extra step on offense...if you do...foul, foul, foul...so what happens? You stop fouling, follow the rules, and get torched...even if you are good on defense.

At least in the regular season, the playoffs still revert back to better standards imo.

Some of these rules are safety stuff tbf. Like you’ll never be able to land near a jump shooter because of zaza. League will never loosen up on flagrant fouls either. Handchecking could be brought back but imo penalizing illegal screens way more harshly would help curb offenses more along with calling more traveling carries etc. audience won’t like a bunch of violations being called however, casual audience hates game stoppages.

Also we can talk about Mavs and kings from 00s but they’re outliers. Maybe only the early 00s bucks are the only other decent team that played like them. Great defense can be entertaining like the pistons but I don’t want to go back to a league where so many teams relied on 1 or 2 guys in post ups or isolation even if that “star” couldn’t shoot 40% from midrange because they saw the bulls do it with mj

[Overdrive]

Good point.

That is an interesting contradiction. That is why I said role players. Just from watching, I do believe role players are better now. The stars? I don't know. It is tough, as you always point out, you just can't go by the numbers because it just isn't the same.

I don't even think the role players are better now. They're just trained and chosen for other things. The 90s and early 2000s also had quite some 3 shooting or 3 and D role players, but teams also loaded up on big men defenders.

[NBAGOAT]

I don't even think the role players are better now. They're just trained and chosen for other things. The 90s and early 2000s also had quite some 3 shooting or 3 and D role players, but teams also loaded up on big men defenders.

It’s partially due to load management too but bench guys play more than they used to. Stars are playing less minutes so ofc their minutes are going to role guys. They may not be “better” but they’re contributing more to teams at least.

Also I do think they’re better. Those bigs who are just there to be a body are unplayable now. There are good bigs who are unplayable in the playoffs because they can’t guard the perimeter. A defensive specialist has to offer some skills on offense now, at the very least some 3pt shooting. Even 7 years ago, Andre Roberson was starting for an elite team, he might be unplayable this year. even with all the scoring, if you’re going targeted on defense by a star every play you could be unplayable in the playoffs unless you’re an elite offensive player.

[DMAVS41]

Some of these rules are safety stuff tbf. Like you’ll never be able to land near a jump shooter because of zaza. League will never loosen up on flagrant fouls either. Handchecking could be brought back but imo penalizing illegal screens way more harshly would help curb offenses more along with calling more traveling carries etc. audience won’t like a bunch of violations being called however, casual audience hates game stoppages.

Also we can talk about Mavs and kings from 00s but they’re outliers. Maybe only the early 00s bucks are the only other decent team that played like them. Great defense can be entertaining like the pistons but I don’t want to go back to a league where so many teams relied on 1 or 2 guys in post ups or isolation even if that “star” couldn’t shoot 40% from midrange because they saw the bulls do it with mj

As I've said in this thread...I thought the early 00's were too defensive oriented. So I agree with you there. I just simply answered the question when asked...which was I'd rather watch the early 00's style than now...but I agree it wasn't optimal.

I agree about the stoppages, but over time players will stop doing it if they call it consistently.

I understand the point about the stars in the past and agree the MJ imitation thing not only didn't work, but it was not all that fun to watch...but one could say the same thing about the Harden/Luka types that just spam the same play the entire game over and over again. All trying to engineer foul calls, often soft foul calls, to loosen up the defense and either get layups or corner threes.

I personally don't find that style compelling to watch...although it is quite effective.

The Mavs, in terms of overall offense in the 03 season, were an outlier as they were the only team to have an ortg over 110, but the Kings weren't. They had the 6th best offense. Obviously there is a difference between how effectively a team scores and how fun they are to watch, but I honestly don't think it was as bad as everyone now claims it was. Don't get me wrong, I do believe changes were needed, but again...I'd rather watch that version than now.

[DMAVS41]

I don't even think the role players are better now. They're just trained and chosen for other things. The 90s and early 2000s also had quite some 3 shooting or 3 and D role players, but teams also loaded up on big men defenders.

Maybe. I won't say I have a really strong take here...I just personally think, based on watching the game evolve over the decades, that the average role player is a better and more capable basketball player now than they were 20 plus years ago.

I don't think it is some enormous gap or something, however.

[NBAGOAT]

As I've said in this thread...I thought the early 00's were too defensive oriented. So I agree with you there. I just simply answered the question when asked...which was I'd rather watch the early 00's style than now...but I agree it wasn't optimal.

I agree about the stoppages, but over time players will stop doing it if they call it consistently.

I understand the point about the stars in the past and agree the MJ imitation thing not only didn't work, but it was not all that fun to watch...but one could say the same thing about the Harden/Luka types that just spam the same play the entire game over and over again. All trying to engineer foul calls, often soft foul calls, to loosen up the defense and either get layups or corner threes.

I personally don't find that style compelling to watch...although it is quite effective.

I wouldnt agree with you but definitely know people who do.

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t know if role players are better, but I think role players have far far more defined roles. What do they do a better job of specializing in. I talked in another topic recently about how the NBA used to be more about ball movement and keeping everyone involved instead of these heliocentric offenses. And it’s true. That old way of playing where everyone was expected to carry more of the load had a lot more people who were just shitty versions of the stars. Now the roles are better defined so the role players for the most part stay in their lane and become incredible at the one or two things they can do. You don’t have a big man posting up just because they’re tall and that’s how basketball is played. Used to be Smits goes out and Dale Davis is posting up as if that makes more sense than getting the ball to Reggie Miller somewhere.

you could argue today’s role players are more useful in their roles because the primary use of most of them is the space to floor or to run hard at the rIm, given the opportunity and it’s hard to **** those things up. I would say the average role player is less capable of ruining the game with foolishness than they used to be because role players aren’t given the freedom to play the total game anymore.

Looking at it That way I can understand Thinking they are better. Theyre certainly better used now that teams value spacing and defense more than individual ability.