Paul George’s best two way players all time by position.

[Kblaze8855]

He has a podcast now so I guess he’s trying to get noticed so that’s why he’s being so talkative….


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2303140729400334.jpeg

[SATAN]

Healthy and locked in his own teammate is a better SF than him. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

CP3
MJ
LeBron (At his peak)
Giannis
Hakeem

[Axe]

Funny that it's only him that hasn't won a ring in that list, let alone making the finals. :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Just being real, I don't even think he's a better two way player than Tatum :lol

Besides SG these would be very difficult to narrow down. I'd probably go

CP3
Jordan
Miami LeBron
Giannis
Hakeem

[1987_Lakers]

CP3
Jordan
Miami LeBron
Giannis
Hakeem
Beat you to it. :lol

[kawhileonard2]

Payton
MJ
Kawhi
Garnett/Duncan
Hakeem

[eliteballer]

Uhhh..

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status/1630989285355577344

[Real Men Wear Green]

I wouldn't even consider George. SF is Pippen or James. May be some other players worth discussing but George isn't one of them.

[ImKobe]

Didn't he just recently say he realized he's not good enough to be the #1 on a title team? How the hell would he make this list then? Why'd he put himself over Kawhi lmao? Maybe he's just trolling for clicks but it sounds weird coming from him.

[Kblaze8855]

Do you think he believes Gary Payton is likely to be the best player on a title team or do you think he believes Gary Payton is the best two way point guard? They feel like different questions.

[Overdrive]

Is offense in this scenario simply based on scoring?
Else Pippen(as some already did) and Kidd should absolutely be mentioned.

[Airupthere]

Lebron claimed he is the goat. PG thinking anyone can just spitball.

[Jasper]

Funny that it's only him that hasn't won a ring in that list, let alone making the finals. :lol

he is perfect example of a stat padder , and generates shit .

Owner of the Clipper's IMO is still a dumb shit for aquiring a worn out Kawhi and stat padder PG.

my five :

Clyde
MJ
Bird
Duncan
WIlt

[ImKobe]

Do you think he believes Gary Payton is likely to be the best player on a title team or do you think he believes Gary Payton is the best two way point guard? They feel like different questions.

I do believe he sees the other 4 players on that list as ATG 2-way players who could lead their teams to a title. GP lost in 6 games to one of the GOAT teams ever and he played hurt in that series (Karl's dumb ass waited until the series was out of reach to put GP on Jordan) & still played the best 1 on 1 defense on Jordan that we've ever seen. GP was a great offensive player as he was at his prime/peak defensively. I feel like PG peaked on D in 2013/14 and wasn't the same defender after his leg injury, and he only had 1 season as a truly elite offensive player and even then he couldn't make it to the POs without being hurt.

I know he believes he had GOAT 2-way potential but I just find it funny that he's saying all this crap when Kawhi is the best 2-way SF ever when healthy.

[Wally450]

PG isn't even the best two way SF on his own team lol.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I must be missing something when it comes to George. I've just never thought he was great... not speaking on something anyone posted in this thread just commenting in general.

[NBAGOAT]

Kawhi was a monster on both ends but his best defense and best offense arent from same stage of his career so that’s a problem compared to say pippen or even lebron.

[Xiao Yao You]

Is offense in this scenario simply based on scoring?
Else Pippen(as some already did) and Kidd should absolutely be mentioned.

not being able to shoot would take Pippen and Kidd out of the discussion

[SouBeachTalents]

I must be missing something when it comes to George. I've just never thought he was great... not speaking on something anyone posted in this thread just commenting in general.
He's very good, All-NBA caliber, but being a fringe superstar/fringe top 10 player in the league is his ceiling. Like I mentioned previously, I think Tatum's already better than PG ever was.

[Overdrive]

not being able to shoot would take Pippen and Kidd out of the discussion

Oh, suddenly shooting is the most important part of the offense? I'll bookmark that for the next discussions on Rudy being a great offensive player.

[Overdrive]

I must be missing something when it comes to George. I've just never thought he was great... not speaking on something anyone posted in this thread just commenting in general.

He is that guy that for 10 years now who has the aura of "if he takes the next step he'll be great" around him while never taking that next step.

[Xiao Yao You]

Oh, suddenly shooting is the most important part of the offense? I'll bookmark that for the next discussions on Rudy being a great offensive player.

Gobert is one of the most efficient players ever. Integral part of the best offense in the league last year. Kidd was shooting under 40% yet he kept shooting! Pippen was good on the break. He wasn't a great half court offensive player

[SouBeachTalents]

Gobert is one of the most efficient players ever. Integral part of the best offense in the league last year. Kidd was shooting under 40% yet he kept shooting! Pippen was good on the break. He wasn't a great half court offensive player
Do you legitimately believe Gobert is a better offensive player than Kidd & Pippen?

[Real Men Wear Green]

not being able to shoot would take Pippen and Kidd out of the discussion

Pippen was a fine shooter. His bank shot was even famous. His 3pt shooting is bad by modern standards but was fine by the standards of the 90s.

[Xiao Yao You]

Do you legitimately believe Gobert is a better offensive player than Kidd & Pippen?

that wasn't said. Kidd and Pippen weren't great offensive players. Kidd made The Bum look efficient. Oh but triple doubles! MJ and Phil Jackson made Pippen overrated

[Xiao Yao You]

Pippen was a fine shooter. His bank shot was even famous. His 3pt shooting is bad by modern standards but was fine by the standards of the 90s.

His mid range was inconsistent. He was good in the open court

[Overdrive]

that wasn't said. Kidd and Pippen weren't great offensive players. Kidd made The Bum look efficient. Oh but triple doubles! MJ and Phil Jackson made Pippen overrated

Kidd wasn't a great offensive player? What the actual ****? You're the biggest (unintentional?) troll on this board.

[Xiao Yao You]

Kidd wasn't a great offensive player? What the actual ****? You're the biggest (unintentional?) troll on this board.

He's not one of the greatest two way players. He shot 40% for his career. Only reason it's that high is because they changed the rules. He shot as low as 36% several times. That would have been fine if he wasn't taking the most shots on his team

[Xiao Yao You]

Triple double on 3-17 shooting never did much for me sorry I grew up watching one of the greats

[Kblaze8855]

Gobert is one of the most efficient players ever. Integral part of the best offense in the league last year. Kidd was shooting under 40% yet he kept shooting! Pippen was good on the break. He wasn't a great half court offensive player


Just like the rest of these guys who have little ability to do anything but dunk and are almost all current players:


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2302110342390108.jpeg




It’s a “lack” of well rounded offensive ability that makes big men that efficient not that you’re likely to acknowledge the obvious.

Great offensive bigs would never be given little enough to do to shoot so well for so long.

Jokic is the only one talented who is even likely to get close and that took not only the destruction of the center position but the nba making defense virtually illegal.

Hes gonna be on a top 20 of almost exclusively dunkers who can barely make a hook left handed by the time he retires. All being among the most efficient players ever is gonna mean is you came in once they stopped letting bums have the freedom to play the total game so you can dunk your way to being more efficient than Kareem through sheer lack of talent or refined skills.

[Xiao Yao You]

Just like the rest of these guys who have little ability to do anything but dunk:


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2302110342390108.jpeg




It’s a “lack” of well rounded offensive ability that makes big men that efficient not that you’re likely to acknowledge the obvious.

Great offensive bigs would never be given little enough to do to shoot so well for so long.

Jokic is the only one talented who is even likely to get close and that took not only the destruction of the center position but the nba making defense virtually illegal.

Hes gonna be on a top 20 of almost exclusively dunkers who can barely make a hook left handed by the time he retires.

and none of that addresses the topic at hand of course. Somehow it always goes back to Gobert. Tell us about how 36% shooting makes one an all time great two way threat?

[Kblaze8855]

Goes back to him? It was the first sentence of the post I quoted. All you do is play dumb as if you don’t realize these unskilled centers shoot 65% specifically because they can’t do anything but dunk. The efficiency difference between Jason Kidd and Rudy is easily explained. Rudy can’t do anything on offense but dunk and Jason Kidd has to play the entire game. Talking about Rudy’s efficiency you might as well talk about Duncan Robinsons lack of turnovers. Hard to turn the ball over when you can’t do anything with it but catch and shoot.

You want to compare Kidd to Steve Nash? OK. Talking about Rudys efficiency is just playing dumb.

[Charlie Sheen]

and none of that addresses the topic at hand of course. Somehow it always goes back to Gobert. Tell us about how 36% shooting makes one an all time great two way threat?

It hits the topic at its core. The players on that list are exclusively finishers. Their offense is reliant on ability of their teammates.

A point guard like Kidd does not have that restriction. FG% doesn't tell much very much of the story here.

[Xiao Yao You]

Goes back to him? It was the first sentence of the post I quoted. All you do is play dumb as if you don’t realize these unskilled centers shoot 65% specifically because they can’t do anything but dunk. The efficiency difference between Jason Kidd and Rudy is easily explained. Rudy can’t do anything on offense but dunk and Jason Kidd has to play the entire game. Talking about Rudy’s efficiency you might as well talk about Duncan Robinsons lack of turnovers. Hard to turn the ball over when you can’t do anything with it but catch and shoot.

You want to compare Kidd to Steve Nash? OK. Talking about Rudys efficiency is just playing dumb.

why aren't all unskilled bigs able to it? You think Mark Eaton could rim run? Or would you rather have him hitting his lefty hook at 45%? You have to have some skill to be a great rim runner and Gobert has been the best. He's not just another rim runner! Everyone is trying to measure up to him. You could have him shooting hooks instead. They know rim running is one of the most efficient ways to score if you have someone that can do it well and why guys aren't posting up for hooks anymore. Gobert has evolved with the game. You either rim run or spot up for 3's. Not much in between unless you are Jokic or Embiid

we're talking all time efficiency vs one of the worst ever for the volume of shots he took. You're still not addressing how a 36% shooter is an all time great two way player which is where we were before you went on your latest Gobert rant. You should just keep a topic at the top to talk Gobert so we don't have to do it over and over again in multiple threads

[Xiao Yao You]

It hits the topic at its core. The players on that list are exclusively finishers. Their offense is reliant on ability of their teammates.

A point guard like Kidd does not have that restriction. FG% doesn't tell much very much of the story here.

36% tells me plenty when we're talking about the best two way players ever. Some shot over 50% And played D. Didn't have the triple doubles though!

[Charlie Sheen]

36% tells me plenty when we're talking about the best two way players ever. Some shot over 50% And played D. Didn't have the triple doubles though!

You are telling me Kidd could not shoot, he was a limited offensive player... but his teams never suffered for it. Why?

[Xiao Yao You]

You are telling me Kidd could not shoot, he was a limited offensive player... but his teams never suffered for it. Why?

how did his teams not suffer from it? They lost every year except when he was a role player. You don't think they may have done better if he wasn't clanking up bricks or passing to the open man more?

[SouBeachTalents]

how did his teams not suffer from it? They lost every year except when he was a role player. You don't think they may have done better if he wasn't clanking up bricks or passing to the open man more?
Sounds like Gobert's career.

[Xiao Yao You]

Sounds like Gobert's career.

yep like most NBA players. If they'd been in the eastern conference they certainly would have fared a lot better though. Gobert would almost certainly have that vaunted conference appearance like the legend that is Carlos Boozer and possibly NBA finals appearances like Kidd in what was a laughably weak east at the time

[Kblaze8855]

why aren't all unskilled bigs able to it? You think Mark Eaton could rim run? Or would you rather have him hitting his lefty hook at 45%? You have to have some skill to be a great rim runner and Gobert has been the best. He's not just another rim runner! Everyone is trying to measure up to him. You could have him shooting hooks instead. They know rim running is one of the most efficient ways to score if you have someone that can do it well and why guys aren't posting up for hooks anymore. Gobert has evolved with the game. You either rim run or spot up for 3's. Not much in between unless you are Jokic or Embiid

we're talking all time efficiency vs one of the worst ever for the volume of shots he took. You're still not addressing how a 36% shooter is an all time great two way player which is where we were before you went on your latest Gobert rant. You should just keep a topic at the top to talk Gobert so we don't have to do it over and over again in multiple threads


Why can’t they all do it? They are all doing it. Nine of the top 11 all time are current players who do it. And as I said given time, it will be the entire top 20. Most of the people who aren’t doing it aren’t eligible….because they’re skilled In something that gives them other uses…like spreading the floor.

And try as you might to make it look that way I’m not the one who compared Rudy to kidd in the first place. You didn’t respond to me I responded to what you said which was as usual some absolute bullshit that requires the reader to know nothing of the game to believe.

Absolutely nobody to be taken serious is comparing the efficiency of non skilled play finishers to people who play the entirety of the game. Perhaps that’s why you do it in so many situations. There is no reason to bring up the shooting percentages of relative bums like Rudy and DeAndre Jordan. Yet youre on here doing it all the time as if you don’t know the entire reason it happens is them not having enough exploitable skill to be given other responsibilities.

it is a stat which is improved by reduced talent, but you want to play dumb and talk about it all the time. As long as you continue, expect the rational response, which is explaining that you’re being a ****ing idiot.

[Charlie Sheen]

how did his teams not suffer from it? They lost every year except when he was a role player. You don't think they may have done better if he wasn't clanking up bricks or passing to the open man more?

No. His teams lose much more than they gain unless the better shooter you are bringing in is Lebron James.

[Xiao Yao You]

No. His teams lose much more than they gain unless the better shooter you are bringing in is Lebron James.

they may have gained more if he was taking better quality shots and passing to the open guy. It's hard to shoot 36% these days because they have a better understanding now. Clarkson below 45% today is the like Kidd, Iverson, Baron etc. The Jazz would certainly be better if he was replaced by anyone!

[AlternativeAcc.]

Does Gobert have gravity as a rim runner? How good is his screen setting?

[Xiao Yao You]

Does Gobert have gravity as a rim runner? How good is his screen setting?

https://saltcityhoops.com/utahs-unique-superstar-gobert/

great place to start



Rudy Gobert’s roll gravity has decimated this Nuggets defense today. They are so concerned with his pressence at the rim that everything else is opening open for the Jazz.

— T.J. McBride (@TJMcBrideNBA) August 8, 2020 (https://twitter.com/TJMcBrideNBA/status/1292210688392388613?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)


offense comes in many packages

[Charlie Sheen]

they may have gained more if he was taking better quality shots and passing to the open guy. It's hard to shoot 36% these days because they have a better understanding now. Clarkson below 45% today is the like Kidd, Iverson, Baron etc. The Jazz would certainly be better if he was replaced by anyone!

You are just trolling me now. Jordan Clarkson is the comparison you want to make to Jason Kidd? Enjoy the rest of your day. :cheers:

[Xiao Yao You]

You are just trolling me now. Jordan Clarkson is the comparison you want to make to Jason Kidd? Enjoy the rest of your day. :cheers:

as far as efficiency yes. Clarkson would certainly be shooting under 40% back then assuming someone would let him play. We can use just all star Baron Davis if you prefer? There's no way I can look at 36% in a positive way just like I can't look at The Bum in a positive way

[HylianNightmare]

Payton
MJ
Kawhi
Garnett/Duncan
Hakeem



This

[HoopologyPhD]

Durant has played lockdown defense when he needs to or wants to.

[Overdrive]

https://saltcityhoops.com/utahs-unique-superstar-gobert/
offense comes in many packages

The irony of someone who argues against one of the greatest point guards ever - defense not even taken into considerstion - because he didn't shoot well.

Why can't Rudy shoot 3s at a 40% clip if he's so offensively talented?

[AlternativeAcc.]

https://saltcityhoops.com/utahs-unique-superstar-gobert/

great place to start



offense comes in many packages

Are you Implying kblaze doesn't understand the nuances of the game?

[Xiao Yao You]

The irony of someone who argues against one of the greatest point guards ever - defense not even taken into considerstion - because he didn't shoot well.

Why can't Rudy shoot 3s at a 40% clip if he's so offensively talented?

we're talking about the greatest two way players. Can't see a 36% shooter being that guy. Why is that hard to understand?

Gobert unlike Kidd, The Bum and countless others understands his strengths and weaknesses. It's why he's been one of the great over achievers the league has seen.

I remember going to a playoff game Jazz/GS and every time Manute got the ball in 3 point range 20,000 we're screaming for him to shoot. I think he was 0-5 that game. Just cause a guy can hit some 3's doesn't mean he should shoot them.

[Xiao Yao You]

Are you Implying kblaze doesn't understand the nuances of the game?

hard to tell what anyone knows when they're always trolling. This got turned into another Gobert sucks trade because I don't think a 36% shooter is an all time two way player :facepalm

[Real Men Wear Green]

Trolls accusing blaze of trolling. It's not that funny. Somehow Gobert is a good offensive player but Kidd and Pip are not. It's really too stupid to be argued.

[Soundwave]

PG - Payton
SG - Jordan
SF - Kawhi
PF - Duncan
C - Hakeem

Would probably be my picks, but good for PG if he believes in himself that much.

[Xiao Yao You]

Trolls accusing blaze of trolling. It's not that funny. Somehow Gobert is a good offensive player but Kidd and Pip are not. It's really too stupid to be argued.

Kidd and Pippen aren't all time great two way players sorry. Both highly overrated while Gobert has been underrated. The fact that ISH argues for a 36% shooter says it all about this place :lol

[AlternativeAcc.]

hard to tell what anyone knows when they're always trolling. This got turned into another Gobert sucks trade because I don't think a 36% shooter is an all time two way player :facepalm

I agree about Kidd. Despite his great playmaking he led bad offenses pretty much every year.

[Xiao Yao You]

that's 36% from the field not 3 pt %! :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

hard to tell what anyone knows when they're always trolling. This got turned into another Gobert sucks trade because I don't think a 36% shooter is an all time two way player :facepalm


Yeah, I’m the one with the fringe opinions out here.

[Overdrive]

we're talking about the greatest two way players. Can't see a 36% shooter being that guy. Why is that hard to understand?

Gobert unlike Kidd, The Bum and countless others understands his strengths and weaknesses. It's why he's been one of the great over achievers the league has seen.

I remember going to a playoff game Jazz/GS and every time Manute got the ball in 3 point range 20,000 we're screaming for him to shoot. I think he was 0-5 that game. Just cause a guy can hit some 3's doesn't mean he should shoot them.

Offense is much more than shooting. You obviously understand that. Atleast when it comes to Rudy. Kidd is a player that first and formost set up others.

He wasn't a good shooter when he was in his prime, but you need to shoot to keep the defense honest. If your team isn't made up of 3 all time great players that can atleast shoot the mid like the late 2000s Celtics you can't have the defense ignore your shot else they'll drop and double off of you making your life as facilitator worse.

Kidd was well aware of that.

Also Kidd shot 36,6% once. Else he was hovering around 40% in a league that shot what? Below 45%? His 3pt% was around league average aswell.

You compare that to Clarkson who doesn't do much else than jack up shots on offense?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kidd and Pippen aren't all time great two way players sorry. Both highly overrated while Gobert has been underrated. The fact that ISH argues for a 36% shooter says it all about this place :lol
The fact that you think a career 12 ppg player whose only skill is dunking is a good offensive player invalidates your opinion.

[Xiao Yao You]

Yeah, I’m the one with the fringe opinions out here.

36 % shouldn't be a fringe opinion today. I was just way ahead of my time. As bad as Clarkson is they got him to take better shots with the Jazz than he did when he arrived. The idea that Kidd couldn't have been better by taking better shots or passing to the open man is ridiculous. He was a better coach last year than he'd been before.

[Xiao Yao You]

Offense is much more than shooting. You obviously understand that. Atleast when it comes to Rudy. Kidd is a player that first and formost set up others.

He wasn't a good shooter when he was in his prime, but you need to shoot to keep the defense honest. If your team isn't made up of 3 all time great players that can atleast shoot the mid like the late 2000s Celtics you can't have the defense ignore your shot else they'll drop and double off of you making your life as facilitator worse.

Kidd was well aware of that.

Also Kidd shot 36,6% once. Else he was hovering around 40% in a league that shot what? Below 45%? His 3pt% was around league average aswell.

You compare that to Clarkson who doesn't do much else than jack up shots on offense?

first and foremost Kidd was getting triple doubles and a lot of hype for it. Again 2-18 triple double doesn't move me much. 40% career because they changed the rules and he learned to take better shots. 40% is awful. He was below that pretty much his whole prime.

[Real Men Wear Green]

36 % shouldn't be a fringe opinion today. I was just way ahead of my time. As bad as Clarkson is they got him to take better shots with the Jazz than he did when he arrived. The idea that Kidd couldn't have been better by taking better shots or passing to the open man is ridiculous. He was a better coach last year than he'd been before.
This guy actually wrote that Kidd should have passed to the open man. Fascinating.

[Xiao Yao You]

The fact that you think a career 12 ppg player whose only skill is dunking is a good offensive player invalidates your opinion.

#1 offense in the league. The offense revolved around his screens and roll gravity. Opened up the floor. If they missed he was there for putbacks. Thinking about the game by ppg is very Axe of you. Are these alts?

[Kblaze8855]

. Also Kidd shot 36,6% once. Else he was hovering around 40% in a league that shot what? Below 45%? His 3pt% was around league average aswell.


I assumed he meant partial seasons he was traded during(where it was low on one of the teams but not for the year) or those last years in Dallas and New York otherwise it never happened at all. But I’m so used to him saying factually incorrect things and nonsense I decided not to call attention to it.

[Xiao Yao You]

This guy actually wrote that Kidd should have passed to the open man. Fascinating.

passing to the open man > another brick.

[Real Men Wear Green]

passing to the open man > another brick.

Do you have any idea what Jason Kidd did on offense? Because it doesn't seem like it.

[Xiao Yao You]

I assumed he meant partial seasons he was traded during(where it was low on one of the teams but not for the year) or those last years in Dallas and New York otherwise it never happened at all. But I’m so used to him saying factually incorrect things and nonsense I decided not to call attention to it.

38 % on 17 points a game his 2nd year
39% on 15 a game first year in Jersey
38% on 16 a game 2 years later
42% was his best year in 2010 when hand checking was long gone

Just awful stuff. One of the great two way players ever! :cheers:

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kidd led offenses averaged 20th in the league for his prime

[Xiao Yao You]

Do you have any idea what Jason Kidd did on offense? Because it doesn't seem like it.

a lot of bricks. That I remember quite well

[Xiao Yao You]

Kidd led offenses averaged 20th in the league for his prime

one of the best two way players ever!

[Xiao Yao You]

is it a coincidence that the Jazz had the best half court offense in the league when they went to the finals? An efficient pg who also played D.

[Axe]

yep like most NBA players. If they'd been in the eastern conference they certainly would have fared a lot better though. Gobert would almost certainly have that vaunted conference appearance like the legend that is Carlos Boozer and possibly NBA finals appearances like Kidd in what was a laughably weak east at the time
You mean the g-league i suppose.

[Xiao Yao You]

You mean the g-league i suppose.

the east hasn't been a whole lot better than the Gleague

[FKAri]

Today I learned that Jason Kidd was a chucker who couldn't be bothered to pass to the open man and instead insisted on bricking jumpers. And his offenses would've run a lot smoother if you swapped him out for someone more efficient like say, Gobert.

[Xiao Yao You]

Today I learned that Jason Kidd was a chucker who couldn't be bothered to pass to the open man and instead insisted on bricking jumpers. And his offenses would've run a lot smoother if you swapped him out for someone more efficient like say, Gobert.

might want to learn reading comprehension. It really is a helpful skill to have in life

[AlternativeAcc.]

one of the best two way players ever!

You're talking to casuals

Kidd isn't even top 5 2-way PG

Stockton
Payton
Cp3
Holiday
KJ
Billups
Frazier
IT


Probably some more

[Xiao Yao You]

You're talking to casuals

Kidd isn't even top 5 2-way PG

Stockton
Payton
Cp3
Holiday
KJ
Billups
Frazier
IT


Probably some more

I wouldn't include Thomas or Johnson on the list but certainly the rest are what I'd look at as a two way pg

[bizil]

GP
MJ
Kawhi
KG
Hakeem

Once Kawhi UPPED the ante scoring the rock, it swung the best two way SF ever CLEARLY his way in my opinion. Because his defensive peak was HIGHER than Bron's and Hondo's. And he became an alpha dog scorer, which gave him the edge on Pippen. And at the PF, you had some TREMENDOUS two way players. Giannis, Duncan, McHale, and AD all awesome two way defenders. But I still had to roll with the Big Ticket!

[bizil]

With PG 13, at the SG or SF, he's likely a top 5-7 two way player EVER! But the guys ahead of him at both spots were more DOMINANT scoring the rock. So even if he's considered a better defender than some of those guys, those guys had MORE IMPACT overall on a game scoring wise. When u look at guys like MJ, Mamba, Wade, Bron, Hondo, and Kawhi for example, u are talking guys who are the best player in the league type. Or in the case of Hondo, Wade, and Kawhi, guys who are top five caliber players in the league for several seasons. PG 13 is a a multi time All Star and HOF caliber player. So no diss to him. But no way in hell is he the top two way SF ever.

[Real Men Wear Green]

#1 offense in the league. The offense revolved around his screens and roll gravity. Opened up the floor. If they missed he was there for putbacks. Thinking about the game by ppg is very Axe of you. Are these alts?

About on par with saying Looney is the reason the Warriors won last year.

[bizil]

Kidd DOESN'T QUALIFY for a top two way PG. The scoring part holds him back. Kidd was never alpha dog level scoring the rock. GP could carry the scoring load in ways Kidd never could. Same with a CP3 or Clyde Frazier.

When it comes to triple doubles, Kidd is on the Mt. Rushmore of PG's with Russ, Magic, and Oscar. When it comes to floor game (passing, defense, rebounding as a package) hell he's the BEST PG OF ALL TIME! And just for pure floor generalship, he's a top 5 PG of all time. But two way wise, the scoring aspect holds him back. The same would apply for Stockton as well. Guys who can give u great defense and 15-17 PPG.

[Xiao Yao You]

About on par with saying Looney is the reason the Warriors won last year.

it would be if he was the most impactful player on the Warriors. He's not

[Xiao Yao You]

Kidd DOESN'T QUALIFY for a top two way PG. The scoring part holds him back. Kidd was never alpha dog level scoring the rock. GP could carry the scoring load in ways Kidd never could. Same with a CP3 or Clyde Frazier.

When it comes to triple doubles, Kidd is on the Mt. Rushmore of PG's with Russ, Magic, and Oscar. When it comes to floor game (passing, defense, rebounding as a package) hell he's the BEST PG OF ALL TIME! And just for pure floor generalship, he's a top 5 PG of all time. But two way wise, the scoring aspect holds him back. The same would apply for Stockton as well. Guys who can give u great defense and 15-17 PPG.

big difference between one of the most efficient players ever in Stockton and one of the most inefficient in Kidd.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kidd DOESN'T QUALIFY for a top two way PG. The scoring part holds him back. Kidd was never alpha dog level scoring the rock. GP could carry the scoring load in ways Kidd never could. Same with a CP3 or Clyde Frazier.

When it comes to triple doubles, Kidd is on the Mt. Rushmore of PG's with Russ, Magic, and Oscar. When it comes to floor game (passing, defense, rebounding as a package) hell he's the BEST PG OF ALL TIME! And just for pure floor generalship, he's a top 5 PG of all time. But two way wise, the scoring aspect holds him back. The same would apply for Stockton as well. Guys who can give u great defense and 15-17 PPG.
High assist totals don't count for offense?

Wait nevermind I forgot that Kidd doesn't pass to open teammates.

[Real Men Wear Green]

it would be if he was the most impactful player on the Warriors. He's not
Gobert want the Jazz franchise player either and we are talking offense where Gobert created nothing.

[Xiao Yao You]

High assist totals don't count for offense?

Wait nevermind I forgot that Kidd doesn't pass to open teammates.

apparently not. Stockton was efficient and played D. Yet to be mentioned

[Xiao Yao You]

Gobert want the Jazz franchise player either and we are talking offense where Gobert created nothing.

yet his presence opened everything up so others could

[bizil]

Stockton was an excellent TWO WAY PLAYER!!! In the top 10 PG's of all time two way wise. JUST SAYING GP, CP3, and Frazier are even BETTER two way players! They have the edge on Stock scoring AND defense wise! From there, all three were great floor generals.

When I think two way ability IN TANDEM, I THINK scoring and defense. Because the only STAT that guarantees a win is WHO HAS THE MOST POINTS! The team that has the most assists DOESN'T always win the game. Some people think two way ability is MORE ABOUT total offense (scoring and passing) and defense.

However, Stock was a VERY GOOD scorer at his peak. So even if YOU DON'T count his assists in the two way equation, he's still a top 10 two way PG EVER! Because when u get past a CP3, Frazier, or GP, most of the PG's known as great scorers DON'T HAVE ENOUGH DEFENSE to make the top 10. So Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, and Dame won't qualify.

Guys like a KJ and Tim Hardaway won't qualify. Magic won't qualify. Isiah POSSIBLY COULD according to some people. And was known as an underrated defender. But for a top 10 two way PG list, I think guys like CP3, Payton, Frazier, Dennis Johnson, Jrue Holiday, Stock, etc. are the types of names that need to come up.

[bizil]

big difference between one of the most efficient players ever in Stockton and one of the most inefficient in Kidd.

Kidd to me doesn't qualify. Stock is a top 10 two way PG in my opinion. He's a better scorer than Kidd was. BUT as a two way player, he's not a contender for the top spot. BECAUSE to me, two way ability is MORE ABOUT scoring and defense. But Stock's scored WELL ENOUGH to be on a top 10 two way PG list. Because the PG spot DOESN'T have as many guys who were LEGIT great scorers AND great defenders as a package as other positions.

[NBAGOAT]

it would be if he was the most impactful player on the Warriors. He's not

Goberts impact was like 80% defense. You have any actual evidence he was the most impactful offensive player in 21 besides a few ridiculous claims? Also yes a bunch of starting centers could’ve replicated what gobert did on offense likely a bit better because his hands are awful

[RRR3]

Xiao getting annihilated in this thread jesus. What a bellend.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I just don't see any reasoning with someone that will honestly claim Kidd didn't pass to open teammates. Think Stockton was better? Fine there's an argument to be made there. But people shouldn't just post blatantly false, stupid crap. What's the point to even communicating?

[1987_Lakers]

Kidd is an interesting case. To me he is probably the best defensive PG ever, excellent team defender & his size allowed him to guard multiple positions, on offense he wasn't the scorer these other PGs were, but had GOAT level playmaking. I say he deserves some consideration to at least be top 5.

[Xiao Yao You]

Goberts impact was like 80% defense. You have any actual evidence he was the most impactful offensive player in 21 besides a few ridiculous claims? Also yes a bunch of starting centers could’ve replicated what gobert did on offense likely a bit better because his hands are awful

his hands were awful. They've improved a lot. He had a tough time with Rubio's passes around his ankles. With Ingles, Hill, Conley, etc. he was fine. The jazz were an awful team when Gobert wasn't playing. Others can't replicate it because he is tireless in his screening. Never understood why Mitchell was supposedly working too hard on offense to play D while the 7 footer was going hard at both ends

[Xiao Yao You]

I just don't see any reasoning with someone that will honestly claim Kidd didn't pass to open teammates. Think Stockton was better? Fine there's an argument to be made there. But people shouldn't just post blatantly false, stupid crap. What's the point to even communicating?

hard to argue with someone who has trouble with reading comprehension

[Real Men Wear Green]

You have a problem with sanity comprehension.

[Xiao Yao You]

You have a problem with sanity comprehension.

perfectly sane. I'm not the one posting things that I didn't say

[Axe]

You have a problem with sanity comprehension.
Lol

[Real Men Wear Green]

perfectly sane. I'm not the one posting things that I didn't say

"The idea that Kidd couldn't have been better by taking better shots or passing to the open man is ridiculous."

[SouBeachTalents]

perfectly sane,
Your activity in the Jazz forum says otherwise.

[NBAGOAT]

his hands were awful. They've improved a lot. He had a tough time with Rubio's passes around his ankles. With Ingles, Hill, Conley, etc. he was fine. The jazz were an awful team when Gobert wasn't playing. Others can't replicate it because he is tireless in his screening. Never understood why Mitchell was supposedly working too hard on offense to play D while the 7 footer was going hard at both ends

His hands are the reason he and dlo had no chemistry and allegedly dlo hated him. Conley was a very accurate passer but when you can’t work with a great passer like Rubio, it’s your fault somewhat, Also Mitchell was doing way more on offense than gobert. Goberts defense was unmatched but someone like Clint capela prime deandre could easily replicate his offense or do better

[Xiao Yao You]

"The idea that Kidd couldn't have been better by taking better shots or passing to the open man is ridiculous."

yep much different than saying a guy never passed. I said an open man is better than another brick. Don't put words in my mouth!

[Xiao Yao You]

His hands are the reason he and dlo had no chemistry and allegedly dlo hated him. Conley was a very accurate passer but when you can’t work with a great passer like Rubio, it’s your fault somewhat, Also Mitchell was doing way more on offense than gobert. Goberts defense was unmatched but someone like Clint capela prime deandre could easily replicate his offense or do better

From everything I've read Russell was the problem there. Conley has no problem getting the ball to Gobert and everyone else on the team. Addition by subtraction. Ingles, Hill, Hayward had no problem getting it to Gobert either

Rubio is known as a great passer yet he couldn't throw a lob for the life of him. He couldn't get a bounce pass to Gobert above his knees. Not many 7 footers are catching passes down there. He'd make the most wtf are you even thinking passes I ever saw. Rubio is a spaz. Plays with a lot of energy and not a lot of brains. Makes sense of the bench. Starting with Gobert and spotting up in the opposite corner of Favors :roll:

Mitchell did mostly one thing on offense. Play 1 on 5. So if you think taking lots of bad shots is better than all the things Gobert brings I don't know what to tell you. All the impact stats point to Gobert and to a lesser extent Conley. Mitchell had the points and hype.

[Real Men Wear Green]

yep much different than saying a guy never passed. I said an open man is better than another brick. Don't put words in my mouth!

I quoted what you wrote. Saying it about one of the all time great pass-first point guards is stupid. The end.

[Overdrive]

Kidd to me doesn't qualify. Stock is a top 10 two way PG in my opinion. He's a better scorer than Kidd was. BUT as a two way player, he's not a contender for the top spot. BECAUSE to me, two way ability is MORE ABOUT scoring and defense. But Stock's scored WELL ENOUGH to be on a top 10 two way PG list. Because the PG spot DOESN'T have as many guys who were LEGIT great scorers AND great defenders as a package as other positions.

For me two-way means overall defense and offense, not scoring only. Kidd is one of the best offensive point guards ever all round. His scoring for his career isn't much lower than Stockton's and his peak scoring was higher, albeit at much lower efficiency.

[ShawkFactory]

Seen some VERY interesting Kidd takes in this thread :lol

Didn’t expect that.

[Xiao Yao You]

For me two-way means overall defense and offense, not scoring only. Kidd is one of the best offensive point guards ever all round. His scoring for his career isn't much lower than Stockton's and his peak scoring was higher, albeit at much lower efficiency.

Yeah Kidd took a ton of shots despite missing well over 55% of them while Stockton was hitting 55% of them. Throwing up tons of bricks is bad offense. It was then as it is now

[Xiao Yao You]

I quoted what you wrote. Saying it about one of the all time great pass-first point guards is stupid. The end.

no you said something like Kidd never passes which I never said. I said he could have passed to the open man more instead of throwing up another brick. Pretty simple but I realize twisting words is what you guys love to do

[Overdrive]

Yeah Kidd took a ton of shots despite missing well over 55% of them while Stockton was hitting 55% of them. Throwing up tons of bricks is bad offense. It was then as it is now

Yeah Stockton could pick his shots feeding off of a good team, while Kidd made teams good.

[ShawkFactory]

no you said something like Kidd never passes which I never said. I said he could have passed to the open man more instead of throwing up another brick. Pretty simple but I realize twisting words is what you guys love to do

How do you know there was an open man, and that he wasn't shooting as a last resort?

He didn't have Karl Malone to help when things broke down.

[Real Men Wear Green]

no you said something like Kidd never passes which I never said. I said he could have passed to the open man more instead of throwing up another brick. Pretty simple but I realize twisting words is what you guys love to do

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?510563-Paul-George%92s-best-two-way-players-all-time-by-position&p=14744643&viewfull=1#post14744643

Anyone can read what was written, no twisting is necessary. Your need to defend Hovey was already making you crazy and now for insane reasons you have taken on attacking Jason Kidd.

[Xiao Yao You]

Yeah Stockton could pick his shots feeding off of a good team, while Kidd made teams good.

they were a good team because they had two of the greatest players ever healthy and bringing it every night. Again the question was is another brick from Kidd better than a pass to someone that shoots over 42% from the field?

[Xiao Yao You]

This guy actually wrote that Kidd should have passed to the open man. Fascinating.

you quote it and still say shit I didn't! :lol

[Xiao Yao You]

How do you know there was an open man, and that he wasn't shooting as a last resort?

He didn't have Karl Malone to help when things broke down.

and Kenyon Martin would have looked more like Malone next to Stockton. If his last resort is taking a shot when probably every guy on the court shoots better than 42% than he's not a top two way player

[FKAri]

Seen some VERY interesting Kidd takes in this thread :lol

Didn’t expect that.

Jason Kidd? Hated that chucker. Always throwing up a selfish brick than passing to the open man.

And Ricky Rubio? When I watch him play I think, man I wish this guy could pass would add a lot to his game.

Rudy Gobert? Greatest defensive force this league has seen and the most efficient offensive player ever. What a beast. Too bad about the dog shit teammates.

I'm perfectly sane btw. The most sane. Maybe ever.

[AlternativeAcc.]

and Kenyon Martin would have looked more like Malone next to Stockton. If his last resort is taking a shot when probably every guy on the court shoots better than 42% than he's not a top two way player

26th best offense with prime Vince and Jefferson.

Kidd just didn't lead good offenses the vast majority of the time.

[ShawkFactory]

and Kenyon Martin would have looked more like Malone next to Stockton. If his last resort is taking a shot when probably every guy on the court shoots better than 42% than he's not a top two way player

Is this a serious post? I TRULY cannot tell.

[Xiao Yao You]

Jason Kidd? Hated that chucker. Always throwing up a selfish brick than passing to the open man.

And Ricky Rubio? When I watch him play I think, man I wish this guy could pass would add a lot to his game.

Rudy Gobert? Greatest defensive force this league has seen and the most efficient offensive player ever. What a beast. Too bad about the dog shit teammates.

I'm perfectly sane btw. The most sane. Maybe ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Loxn-8N1JEs

this was pretty typical of the Matador when he was here

[RogueBorg]

Scottie Pippen is the best defensive small forward of all-time.