Do you think it's possible LeBron threw the 2011 Finals due to Wade winning FMVP?

[Im Still Ballin]

This is something I've long thought about. It seems ridiculous, but is it? LeBron is the textbook basketball definition of Main Character Syndrome. I'm not sure his ego could've handled being branded as Wade's sidekick. This is a guy with "The Chosen One" tattooed on his back after all. Someone who's been compared to MJ since day one.

Incredible pressure. You'd be a fool to think that he didn't consider the possibility. He was well aware of what it would mean to his legacy - and he's always cared about it.

He didn't outright throw the series by taking bad shots. Rather, he played incredibly passively. I don't buy the "defense shut him down" narrative. He sat in the corner and barely did anything. Great players aren't going to be stopped like that. Even Eddie House, who was on that 2011 Miami team, said he quit on them.

Whatever it was, there were definitely some issues between LeBron and Dwyane. It was ultimately Wade that took a step back, and the rest is history.

[ArbitraryWater]

Doubt it cause then he woudnt have had those press conferences, those "all the people whove been rooting for me to fail.."

But yea, the defense did not shut him down. He just kinda stopped being aggressive. I dont really know what happened either. He did not attack the basket.

[ImKobe]

Doubt it cause then he woudnt have had those press conferences, those "all the people whove been rooting for me to fail.."

But yea, the defense did not shut him down. He just kinda stopped being aggressive. I dont really know what happened either. He did not attack the basket.

Heat didn't have enough shooters nor ball movement to counter the zone. Mavs dared Bran and Wade to make 3s and they're not great shooters. Bran settled for too many 3s. It's hard to beat the zone when you got 3 guys on the court who can't make 3s at a good rate with your two best players dominating the ball a lot. He was forcing 3s and looked flustered with unforced TOs & offensive fouls. Credit to the Mavs for figuring him out. Celtics employed that same strategy and it almost worked but they weren't good enough offensively to keep up once Bran got his jump shot going.

[Kblaze8855]

This is exactly what Mark Cuban was talking about when he famously destroyed first take for making that entire series about LeBron James, and not crediting the Mavericks game plan, which was to make him not attack because it’s the right basketball decision at the moment. Us as fans and the entire sports media have such a star fetish, we will more readily accept the theory that the star threw a series for emotional reasons, than to wonder what the brilliant and capable players on the other team might have done to make him pass the ball.

He wasn’t wise enough to know that when you gotta take over it doesn’t matter if such and such is the right play. You just take over. He ****ed it up but that’s no reason to act like Kidd, Marion, and Chandler and a great game plan weren’t largely the reason.

Making it all about why a star lost just steals credit the people who won should get.

And even playing that way they won game one and won game three and Wade missed a three at the buzzer that would’ve won game two. It’s a game of inches. Wades 3 goes in they might have won the series in a sweep and not attacking just proves he did the right thing and trusted teammates.

But we play the result, and I would say correctly, so in this case, because he should have been more aggressive. But I think it’s a little disrespectful of the people who actually won to take all credit from them for a successful game plan.

[SouBeachTalents]

This is exactly what Mark Cuban was talking about when he famously destroyed first take for making that entire series about LeBron James, and not crediting the Mavericks game plan, which was to make him not attack because it’s the right basketball decision at the moment. Us as fans and the entire sports media have such a star fetish, we will more readily accept the theory that the star threw a series for emotional reasons, than to wonder what the brilliant and capable players on the other team might have done to make him pass the ball.

He wasn’t wise enough to know that when you gotta take over it doesn’t matter if such and such is the right play. You just take over. He ****ed it up but that’s no reason to act like Kidd, Marion, and Chandler and a great game plan weren’t largely the reason.

Making it all about why a star lost just steals credit the people who won should get.

And even playing that way they won game one and won game three and Wade missed a three at the buzzer that would’ve won game two. It’s a game of inches. Wades 3 goes in they might have won the series in a sweep and not attacking just proves he did the right thing and trusted teammates.

But we play the result, and I would say correctly, so in this case, because he should have been more aggressive. But I think it’s a little disrespectful of the people who actually won to take all credit from them for a successful game plan.
LeBron had bad series before that, he was atrocious in his first Finals and had some brutal stretches of play in the two series against Boston. But outside of that infamous Game 5 the year before, he never came close to playing that passively.

You're right, you shouldn't take away credit from what Dallas did defensively, but that doesn't tell the whole story. LeBron spent way too much time in that series passively standing at the top of the perimeter, completely disengaged in the offense, throwing hot potato passes when he did get the ball. You could argue he played into the defenses hands by passing and trying to make the right play, but imo there's no defensive strategy that should result in him playing that passively virtually the entire series, most especially in those razor thin 4th quarters that were coming down to the last possession of the game.

You score 8 points in 46 minutes of play in the biggest game of your career, in a game that was decided by 3 points, that goes beyond any defensive strategy or personnel a team could throw at you.

[StrongLurk]

We'll never know...but what we do know is the 2011 finals would NEVER have happened to MJ. No way he ever goes out like that.

It's things like 2011 finals that makes me unable to put Lebron ABOVE MJ, let alone on the same tier.

The whole "Mavs defense stopped Lebron" is bullshit. Dude is supposed to be the GOAT. He was freakin 26 years old in 2011, already made a finals before in 2007 and had two MVPs. He had PLENTY of experience and the tools to dominate.

We literally had just watched Lebron demolish the Bulls/Celtics and was insanely clutch in those series. Lebron beat himself in the 2011 finals after they lost game 2. If the Heat didn't complete choke away game 2 and took the 2-0 lead, I highly doubt Lebron would've checked himself out.

[Overdrive]

That stuff came up pretty soon after the loss. I think back then it was a weak attempt to save face for Lebron. It would mean he had power over the outcome all the time. But is that a positive thing?

Why would the top star of the league deliberately throwing a finals series be a good thing?
How did it infact damage his legacy? Most non Lebron fans think it's the #1 reason against his GOAT case.

I think it was a combination of a few things:

The Mavs absolutely planned to neutralize Lebron and they had the right defenders for that. Lebron simply didn't have the tools to respond yet. Take a look at 2013. Similar concept by the Spurs and he still had a hard time. If he didn't take over in G6 Q4 it's most likely the same outcome and his stats would be similarly bad.

The difference is. He took over. He stopped overthinking what's the right play. That's the mentality you need from your star player who shoots 50%+ overall. The right play is going for your score first. Everything else is a result of your aggressiveness. Even if you have 16 on 18 shots, but 12 assists. You're the best scorer? Try to score, keep the defense honest. Not let Diaw play drop defense on you.

The next differense was the team composition. The 2011 Heat didn't have enough shooters. So Lebron had to give the ball in the hands into the only other big scoring threat. Wade. I think Battier's addition was vital and won them the 2012 finals. That's exactly the type of players to surround Lebron with.

[ImKobe]

We'll never know...but what we do know is the 2011 finals would NEVER have happened to MJ. No way he ever goes out like that.

It's things like 2011 finals that makes me unable to put Lebron ABOVE MJ, let alone on the same tier.

The whole "Mavs defense stopped Lebron" is bullshit. Dude is supposed to be the GOAT. He was freakin 26 years old in 2011, already made a finals before in 2007 and had two MVPs. He had PLENTY of experience and the tools to dominate.

We literally had just watched Lebron demolish the Bulls/Celtics and was insanely clutch in those series. Lebron beat himself in the 2011 finals after they lost game 2. If the Heat didn't complete choke away game 2 and took the 2-0 lead, I highly doubt Lebron would've checked himself out.

There's just no way you can guard Jordan like that. He can play without dominating the ball and he was one of he GOAT shooters from mid-range and on long 2s, and he'd be automatic in the post vs JJ Barea or Kidd or Peja or DeShaun or even Marion in single coverage.

You have to give Mavs credit because they knew Lebron's limitations (take away the paint and he's useless) and played it to perfection.

[Wally450]

I don't think so. Give credit to Dallas, but LeBron looked disengaged at times. Not because he was trying to throw the series, but maybe the pressure was too big for him in that moment. As Soubeach said, 8 points in 46 minutes when we've seen you take over games in the past, it was a combination of LeBron mentally shrinking, and Dallas' defense that caused the overall issue.

[Kblaze8855]

You're right, you shouldn't take away credit from what Dallas did defensively, but that doesn't tell the whole story.


Nothing brief tells a whole story. But we are in a society of brief remarks because we are living sound bite to sound bite and real conversations can’t happen. Places like here they can…but we are basically the written version of sports media shows at this point.

We know that a very intelligent coach, flanked by one of the smartest and best defensive guards of all time in Kidd also had one of the greatest defenders of their generation in Shawn Marion and the guy I believe won of the defensive player of the year the very next season for his help defense in Tyson Chandler.

We know this. We know that they had film sessions and planned to do something about Lebron. That the famous 8 point game is when they switched defenders and changed who would switch on the Wade/Lebron screen. We know basketball decisions were made and executed well.

But.


Absolutely none of it is talked about.

Was LeBron too passive that series? Obviously he was. Was there an entire other team out there setup to beat them? Yes.

But nobody cares.

Forget Lebron for a minute.

How must it feel to be a Dallas player who worked your whole life for that moment…utterly eliminate Lebron down the stretch of a game…win the title…and hear about Lebron exclusively? Like you didn’t deny him the ball with all you had….like you didn’t cut off the drive…like you didn’t watch 3 hours of film with Kidd pointing out what to do when he comes off a Bosh screen over here. You turn on ESPN and the first topic isn’t “Dallas Mavericks nba champion.” its “Lebron James loses nba finals” followed by “Did Dallas win or did Lebron lose?” before in the second segment they get to Dirk…and how much he outscored Lebron by. Nobody gets stand-alone love. Only love as it fits into Lebron criticism.

Like you didn’t put all you had into it and beat him….only to never be heard of again outside Lebron hating. Jj played well…but he only exists in the public consciousness as a picture of Lebron hesitating before backing him down. He worked his whole life to be a “Lebron won’t back down this little nobody” meme.

We are all just search Star****ers people are almost offended by the idea of the little people and their little game plan being effective. No. Can’t be.

Dudes just a bitch.

And fine. Let’s say he is.

Cant he be a bitch AND have been played well?

He has to be a bitch who lost on purpose to deny his teammate an mvp?

Dallas didn’t beat him. He threw the series.

And I’ve heard that theory raised more(even if in jest) than I’ve heard an even passing breakdown on what Dallas did over 6 games to limit him.

We have to hate on Lebron so hard we credit him exclusively for losses to the point the victors can’t get their flowers? Only in passing “Yea yea yea….and Dallas was ok too” fashion?

They’re the ones being slighted.

[theman93]

No. He couldn't figure out Dallas' defense and became passive and tentative.

[ArbitraryWater]

This is exactly what Mark Cuban was talking about when he famously destroyed first take for making that entire series about LeBron James, and not crediting the Mavericks game plan, which was to make him not attack because it’s the right basketball decision at the moment. Us as fans and the entire sports media have such a star fetish, we will more readily accept the theory that the star threw a series for emotional reasons, than to wonder what the brilliant and capable players on the other team might have done to make him pass the ball.

He wasn’t wise enough to know that when you gotta take over it doesn’t matter if such and such is the right play. You just take over. He ****ed it up but that’s no reason to act like Kidd, Marion, and Chandler and a great game plan weren’t largely the reason.

Making it all about why a star lost just steals credit the people who won should get.

And even playing that way they won game one and won game three and Wade missed a three at the buzzer that would’ve won game two. It’s a game of inches. Wades 3 goes in they might have won the series in a sweep and not attacking just proves he did the right thing and trusted teammates.

But we play the result, and I would say correctly, so in this case, because he should have been more aggressive. But I think it’s a little disrespectful of the people who actually won to take all credit from them for a successful game plan.


You dont think Marc Cuban has his own motivations in saying that? Like he might be biased? Or was the Mavs coaching staff just revolutionary genius that no other team could defend James like that?

What do you think is more likely?

[Kblaze8855]

You dont think Marc Cuban has his own motivations in saying that? Like he might be biased? Or was the Mavs coaching staff just revolutionary genius that no other team could defend James like that?

What do you think is more likely?


if you watch the whole discussion, he was actually there talking about the stupid generalities being used by sports media talking about that year‘s finals, which was the heat and the thunder. They ended up talking about Dallas as well, but he spent most of it discussing the truth about the shallow analysis we get, which rubs off on fans. They ended up talking about skip claiming LeBron simply played harder than Durant the previous game, and Cuban wanting specifics.

They got to talking about just standing around on the perimeter, which is what Skip claimed Lebron was doing vs them, and Cuban was talking about the matchup zone, which was specifically designed to make swinging the ball around the perimeter to start the play on the other side, be the right basketball decision.

Didn’t feel like he was there on a “Respect the mavs” crusade. Felt like a “Talk basketball you idiots” crusade which I very much agree with.

[Phoenix]

The weirdest thing about that finals is he was great against the two top ranked defensive teams, Bulls and Celtics, in the very same playoff run.

[ArbitraryWater]

if you watch the whole discussion, he was actually there talking about the stupid generalities being used by sports media talking about that year‘s finals, which was the heat and the thunder. They ended up talking about Dallas as well, but he spent most of it discussing the truth about the shallow analysis we get, which rubs off on fans. They ended up talking about skip claiming LeBron simply played harder than Durant the previous game, and Cuban wanting specifics.

They got to talking about just standing around on the perimeter, which is what Skip claimed Lebron was doing vs them, and Cuban was talking about the matchup zone, which was specifically designed to make swinging the ball around the perimeter to start the play on the other side, be the right basketball decision.

Didn’t feel like he was there on a “Respect the mavs” crusade. Felt like a “Talk basketball you idiots” crusade which I very much agree with.


I watched it not too ong ago and he did infact say it was the Mavericks defensive gamepan which imited James, not eBrons own choking/inabiity. A notion you just agreed with.

This thread isnt about the sports media after a, so dont defect now by saying you just wanted to show support for Cubans tak about sports media and their generaities. This thread has nothing to do with that.

So again I ask,

what do you think is more ikey? That eBron choked/quit/was too passive and coud have done better with the abiities a 2011 eBron possessed, or was the Mavs coaching staff just revolutionary genius that no other team could defend James like that?

[SouBeachTalents]

The weirdest thing about that finals is he was great against the two top ranked defensive teams, Bulls and Celtics, in the very same playoff run.
Not only that, he EVISCERATED them in the clutch. He went from that to barely scoring a bucket in every 4th quarter in the Finals :lol

[Kblaze8855]

I watched it not too ong ago and he did infact say it was the Mavericks defensive gamepan which imited James, not eBrons own choking/inabiity. A notion you just agreed with.

This thread isnt about the sports media after a, so dont defect now by saying you just wanted to show support for Cubans tak about sports media and their generaities. This thread has nothing to do with that.

So again I ask,

what do you think is more ikey? That eBron choked/quit/was too passive and coud have done better with the abiities a 2011 eBron possessed, or was the Mavs coaching staff just revolutionary genius that no other team could defend James like that?


Didn’t I just say:



We are all just search Star****ers people are almost offended by the idea of the little people and their little game plan being effective. No. Can’t be.

Dudes just a bitch.

And fine. Let’s say he is.

Cant he be a bitch AND have been played well?

He has to be a bitch who lost on purpose to deny his teammate an mvp?



?


And the answer appears to be “No.”. He can only be a bitch. Dallas gets only obligatory minimum recognition because if it was them….other teams would have done it as well. Apparently the idea that someone could have an excellent and effective game plan that a player later learns to counter is completely ridiculous.

[BallsOut]

Yes LeBron had that look of a disinterested player who quit on his team. We’ve seen that before on our high school teams. Usually the coach will sub him out but it’s LeBron. The sad part is that he disrespected Wade by doing that and Wade went on to defer to LeBron so they could win without LeBron acting a fool.

Wade was a cuck but history isn’t kind to cuckoldry which is why LeBron did what he did in that 2011 nba finals

[DMAVS41]

This is exactly what Mark Cuban was talking about when he famously destroyed first take for making that entire series about LeBron James, and not crediting the Mavericks game plan, which was to make him not attack because it’s the right basketball decision at the moment. Us as fans and the entire sports media have such a star fetish, we will more readily accept the theory that the star threw a series for emotional reasons, than to wonder what the brilliant and capable players on the other team might have done to make him pass the ball.

He wasn’t wise enough to know that when you gotta take over it doesn’t matter if such and such is the right play. You just take over. He ****ed it up but that’s no reason to act like Kidd, Marion, and Chandler and a great game plan weren’t largely the reason.

Making it all about why a star lost just steals credit the people who won should get.

And even playing that way they won game one and won game three and Wade missed a three at the buzzer that would’ve won game two. It’s a game of inches. Wades 3 goes in they might have won the series in a sweep and not attacking just proves he did the right thing and trusted teammates.

But we play the result, and I would say correctly, so in this case, because he should have been more aggressive. But I think it’s a little disrespectful of the people who actually won to take all credit from them for a successful game plan.

Yep.

I would also just add that, even with all of that...Lebron not taking over...and the Mavs defensive plan working...if Dirk/Terry don't play all-time great in crunch time in that series...the Mavs probably lose in 5 or 6.

Lebron deserves a lot of criticism for how he played because he was a vet by then and should have known he had to force the action more, but the Mavs defense and Dirk/Terry deserve a huge amount of credit for doing what no other team could do.

So much is retroactive analysis...nobody, I'd bet close to literally nobody in the world, would have bet the Mavs to win that series when they were down 15 points in game 2 with 6 minutes left after already losing game 1.

[Overdrive]

I watched it not too ong ago and he did infact say it was the Mavericks defensive gamepan which imited James, not eBrons own choking/inabiity. A notion you just agreed with.

This thread isnt about the sports media after a, so dont defect now by saying you just wanted to show support for Cubans tak about sports media and their generaities. This thread has nothing to do with that.

So again I ask,

what do you think is more ikey? That eBron choked/quit/was too passive and coud have done better with the abiities a 2011 eBron possessed, or was the Mavs coaching staff just revolutionary genius that no other team could defend James like that?

There a were times before and after he was defended similarly to that series and he didn't play well, until in some series he overcame it with forcing his shots.

So either he has a habit of choking/quitting. The thing his distractors call him out for and you unintentionally admit it here or there are/were ways to take him out of his game/comfort zone and thus making him passive at times.

[SouBeachTalents]

There a were times before and after he was defended similarly to that series and he didn't play well, until in some series he overcame it with forcing his shots.

So either he has a habit of choking/quitting. The thing his distractors call him out for and you unintentionally admit it here or there are/were ways to take him out of his game/comfort zone and thus making him passive at times.
Before that series, sure, but since then he's been great in virtually every playoff run/series that he's had. The only time I felt like he struggled was against the Spurs in 2013, and even then he did what he refused to do in 2011, he took over when his team needed him in the 4th in Game 6 and dominated Game 7.

[Overdrive]

Before that series, sure, but since then he's been great in virtually every playoff run/series that he's had. The only time I felt like he struggled was against the Spurs in 2013, and even then he did what he refused to do in 2011, he took over when his team needed him in the 4th in Game 6 and dominated Game 7.

Yeah, that's what I posted already. The Spurs used similar tactics and succeeded until G6 Q4. I think the experience he gained in 2011 actually saved him there.



The Mavs absolutely planned to neutralize Lebron and they had the right defenders for that. Lebron simply didn't have the tools to respond yet. Take a look at 2013. Similar concept by the Spurs and he still had a hard time. If he didn't take over in G6 Q4 it's most likely the same outcome and his stats would be similarly bad.

The difference is. He took over. He stopped overthinking what's the right play. That's the mentality you need from your star player who shoots 50%+ overall. The right play is going for your score first. Everything else is a result of your aggressiveness. Even if you have 16 on 18 shots, but 12 assists. You're the best scorer? Try to score, keep the defense honest. Not let Diaw play drop defense on you.

[Axe]

Some analyst pointed out before that tyson chandler was a key piece who impeded the heat in winning, particularly kong.

[AlternativeAcc.]

2011 Mavs are the most underrated teams of all time

The just absolutely loaded with high IQ and great defensive pieces. Great shooting. Great coaching.


People who act like Dirk carried a bad roster to a title are casuals. All he had to do was score. Didn't need to defend or play make like almost every other superstar is tasked to do.

[ArbitraryWater]

2011 Mavs are the most underrated teams of all time

The just absolutely loaded with high IQ and great defensive pieces. Great shooting. Great coaching.


People who act like Dirk carried a bad roster to a title are casuals. All he had to do was score. Didn't need to defend or play make like almost every other superstar is tasked to do.

They were 2-7 without him..1 of those 2 wins came against the historically bad Cavs.

[Full Court]

:roll:

Good one, OP.

It's not like that was LeShrivel's only epic choke job.

[DMAVS41]

2011 Mavs are the most underrated teams of all time

The just absolutely loaded with high IQ and great defensive pieces. Great shooting. Great coaching.


People who act like Dirk carried a bad roster to a title are casuals. All he had to do was score. Didn't need to defend or play make like almost every other superstar is tasked to do.

He definitely had to defend...and he definitely created offense and shots for the team.

Absolutely not a bad roster, but also nothing of note for title winning teams.

[AlternativeAcc.]

He definitely had to defend...and he definitely created offense and shots for the team.

Absolutely not a bad roster, but also nothing of note for title winning teams.

All great scorers create space. He wasn't asked to defend like lebron, kawhi, giannis, etc

They're not noteworthy in terms of star power outside of Dirk.

But in terms of shooting, defense, passing, iq, you know all the complementary stuff that actually matters they're extremely noteworthy.

[Im Still Ballin]

Eh, I watched that Mark Cuban on First Take clip. I think he was being a bit of a bitch.

Skip was 100% right about LeBron being passive in 2011. That much was obvious. No defensive coverage is going to do that to a great player. Of course Mark wants his players to get more credit. He owns the team - that's his bias.

What value does LeBron bring to the offense if he's standing in the corner as a spot-up shooter? He didn't even try to move off-ball, through screens, set screens, perform dribble hand-offs, etc.

LeBron just wasn't fully embracing the secondary role. It's that simple. When LeBron doesn't get his way or is upset he becomes passive. He's a textbook passive-aggressive. And anything less than 100% commitment to his role is sabotage, in my opinion. With how top-heavy Miami was in 2011, LeBron not giving 100% can very much be the difference between winning and losing.

You'd be naive to think that LeBron doesn't consider legacy-factoring ramifications. Especially at that point in his career. He 100% strikes me as the type of guy to rather lose than win in a way that makes him seem less.

[RRR3]

If LeBron was so concerned about winning FMVP and not Wade he would have shotjacked. Dumb thread.

[Im Still Ballin]

If LeBron was so concerned about winning FMVP and not Wade he would have shotjacked. Dumb thread.

Wade can't win the games on his own, and he's not winning FMVP if they lose. LeBron not fully embracing his secondary role is sabotage. It's that simple.

Kobe in 2004 was a guy gunning to win FMVP. LeBron in 2011 was a guy who went into his passive-aggressive shell because his teammate was outplaying him. You're 100% being naive to think LeBron doesn't think about these things.

What we do know is that Dwyane and LeBron got together in the offseason, and Wade was the one who took a step back. That's confirmation that there was something between them that first season. Even Eddie House came out and said LeBron quit on them in the Finals.

[RRR3]

You sound like Alex Jones. LeBron still gets killed for how he played in 2011 there’s no way he did that on purpose.

[SouBeachTalents]

Eh, I watched that Mark Cuban on First Take clip. I think he was being a bit of a bitch. Skip was 100% right about LeBron being passive in 2011. That much was obvious. No defensive coverage is going to do that to a great player.

What value does LeBron bring to the offense if he's standing in the corner as a spot-up shooter? He didn't even try to move off-ball, through screens, set screens, perform dribble hand-offs, etc.

LeBron just wasn't fully embracing the secondary role. It's that simple. When LeBron doesn't get his way or is upset he becomes passive. He's a textbook passive-aggressive. And anything less than 100% commitment to his role is sabotage, in my opinion. With how top-heavy Miami was in 2011, LeBron not giving 100% can very much be the difference between winning and losing.

You'd be naive to think that LeBron doesn't consider legacy-factoring ramifications. Especially at that point in his career. He 100% strikes me as the type of guy to rather lose than win in a way that makes him seem less.
I actually agree with you about Cuban, he tried to downplay how preposterous it was for LeBron to have single digit scoring games and see his scoring average drop off by nearly 10 ppg in that series, and acted like his defense was solely responsible for that complete outlier of a performance.

My theory on what happened, and I think it was a couple of factors. I think the complete 180 of him going from beloved athlete to biggest villain, literally overnight, and all the hate and criticism he received all season, particularly from Cleveland fans, wore him down as the season progressed. And yes, after the unprecedented spectacle of his free agency and signing, he would've been embarrassed to not even be FMVP of his own team. I recall this postgame question after Game 3.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMYlnMzdoPo&ab_channel=IwasBannedfromYtube

If I recall correctly, that was the first time his 4th quarter struggles were ever brought up, and you could tell the question really bothered him. Again, this is a complete hypothetical with no evidence to back it up, but I feel like from that point forward LeBron went out of his way to prove he didn't need to score to be an impactful player. That yes, Wade was going to win FMVP outscoring him by a significant margin, but it was by design, and he was choosing to be the all around glue guy for his team instead. He couldn't control winning FMVP, but he could control his own narrative for why Wade won it over him. All I'm saying is, it's a pretty big coincidence that once the discussion of his lack of scoring came up, he had his 8 point performance the very next game.

[Im Still Ballin]

You sound like Alex Jones. LeBron still gets killed for how he played in 2011 there’s no way he did that on purpose.

That's your opinion. Eddie House, who actually played on the team, thinks differently.

You know it's okay to criticize LeBron?

He's one of my favorite players ever and I've got him top 3 all-time at a minimum. But he's not perfect; his personality nor his game. He's never struck me as a virtuous, self-sacrificing teammate. Someone who'd gladly take a backseat for the good of the team. Not like Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Robinson, etc.

He wants to win... on his terms. That's true for all players but infinitely more so for LeBron. Given he's the "Chosen One" and been the main character since like 15.

He's more like Westbrook than many would care to admit. The difference is that he's just still really good.

[Im Still Ballin]

I actually agree with you about Cuban, he tried to downplay how preposterous it was for LeBron to have single digit scoring games and see his scoring average drop off by nearly 10 ppg in that series, and acted like his defense was solely responsible for that complete outlier of a performance.

My theory on what happened, and I think it was a couple of factors. I think the complete 180 of him going from beloved athlete to biggest villain, literally overnight, and all the hate and criticism he received all season, particularly from Cleveland fans, wore him down as the season progressed. And yes, after the unprecedented spectacle of his free agency and signing, he would've been embarrassed to not even be FMVP of his own team. I recall this postgame question after Game 3.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMYlnMzdoPo&ab_channel=IwasBannedfromYtube

If I recall correctly, that was the first time his 4th quarter struggles were ever brought up, and you could tell the question really bothered him. Again, this is a complete hypothetical with no evidence to back it up, but I feel like from that point forward LeBron went out of his way to prove he didn't need to score to be an impactful player. That yes, Wade was going to win FMVP outscoring him by a significant margin, but it was by design, and he was choosing to be the all around glue guy for his team instead. He couldn't control winning FMVP, but he could control his own narrative for why Wade won it over him. All I'm saying is, it's a pretty big coincidence that once the discussion of his lack of scoring came up, he had his 8 point performance the very next game.

Sure, that's a fair assessment.

I just don't get these posters in here acting like LeBron is 100% virtuous and impervious to the media and public discourse.

We're talking about a guy who just told everyone he had a dream about himself and MJ dueling each other in the clutch.

:roll: