"I heard mother****ers saying they made Hov. Made Hov say, 'Okay, so…..

[Kblaze8855]

…..make another Hov”.

We often hear that some player made another. Too many examples to name. I’m sure you can think of a few.

Faced with the same accusation Jay Z made the reply above. Ok….make another one. If I’m not great because of my own talent and hard work…but because of you…you should be able to reproduce me.

A reasonable counter I’d say.


So I ask you….


If you are a supporter of the idea that players should at times be credited with creating fellow stars….

Do you have examples of anyone creating more than one? Who would stop at one?

I can think of a couple possibilities but I’ll leave it to you. See if we have the same names in mind.

[warriorfan]

Jordan made Pippen

[Kblaze8855]

Jordan made Pippen


I was told once that he stopped at one because he enjoyed the challenge.

[warriorfan]

I was told once that he stopped at one because he enjoyed the challenge.

:lol

pippen was a special player in his own right, i’m not saying jordan is god and can breathe into a pile of dust and manifest all star players.

however pippen’s unrealized talent was definitely maximized in a perfect storm situation he found himself in

[Real Men Wear Green]

:lol

pippen was a special player in his own right, i’m not saying jordan is god and can breathe into a pile of dust and manifest all star players.

however pippen’s unrealized talent was definitely maximized in a perfect storm situation he found himself in

Or he might have evolved as more of a scorer if he didn't have a teammate that averaged over 30. His championships fame and place in history were maximized with Jordan but he still could have been a great player. He got to the NBA on his own. People give Jordan all this credit for his development but the fact is that evert basketball player either does or does not take advantage of coaches and trainers to make themselves better. It's not like Jordan taught him the fadeaway.

[Kblaze8855]

I remember in the early days of ISH people saying Shaq made Kobe like he made Penny but I seem to recall a lot more people around me in real life repping Penny in the 90s. He later had Wade as well so I guess he could have a “I did make another one” argument to make for someone who wasnt there to know public perception at the times.

[Kblaze8855]

:lol

pippen was a special player in his own right, i’m not saying jordan is god and can breathe into a pile of dust and manifest all star players.

however pippen’s unrealized talent was definitely maximized in a perfect storm situation he found himself in


The situation I recall discussing was in a likely hating topic on one of the times he went off on the GM. Probably this:




``I can't understand it, Jerry Krause (Bulls' general manager) will have to explain it to you guys (the media),'' Jordan said. ``If I were GM, we wouldn't be in this position, we'd be a better team.''


When he wanted Walter Davis and the Blazers got him instead.

That truly was more than a “I need more help” thing though. He and Davis were close back to his college days. He was a mentor and Jordan listed him as the best player he ever saw in person as a rookie. Just loved the guy. Was salty as hell the Bulls didn’t get him.

[highwhey]

Jordan made Pippen

crack made you

[BigShotBob]

The situation I recall discussing was in a likely hating topic on one of the times he went off on the GM. Probably this:






When he wanted Walter Davis and the Blazers got him instead.

That truly was more than a “I need more help” thing though. He and Davis were close back to his college days. He was a mentor and Jordan listed him as the best player he ever saw in person as a rookie. Just loved the guy. Was salty as hell the Bulls didn’t get him.

Buck Williams was also very good and MJ would have loved to play with him. MJ with Walter Davis would have been something special too. Hell, you could have replaced Pippen with Mark Jackson, Kevin Johnson, and Reggie Miller, they were all in Pippen's draft class.

Pippen wasn't ready made so you could say that MJ helping Pippen to develop slowed his chances to win a championship

Edit: With that said MJ made Pippen and Grant thanks to their Breakfast Club workouts.

Kobe made Trevor Ariza and Pau Gasol

[Kblaze8855]

Pau was 27 when he got to the Lakers. Losing to the dynasty Spurs, Nash/Amare/Marion Suns, and the 06 Mavs who blew the title with Battier, Miller, and James Posey doesn’t mean he didn’t learn to play till he had Kobe, Odom, and Bynum instead.


And Pippen had 24/6/5 and 3 steals in the very first start of his career….a win or go home game they eliminated the Cavs his rookie year. He wasn’t consistent as many rookies aren’t but he showed he could play right away. Plenty of hall of famers take year and years to develop. Nash and Alex English weren’t anything close to stars till they were 26-27. Not like taking 2 years to become an all star is weirdly long.

Something about being next to those big name guys…


I’m sure being on the second team in practice against wilt every day helped Nate Thurmond become the Hall of Fame defender he did but I somehow doubt anyone was writing articles in the 70s to suggest Wilt created a lottery pick with special athleticism and drive that made him a lottery pick to begin with.


Somewhere in early days of major national media the cults of personality exploded and stars started getting credit for their teammates existing when they worked out and practice together, like basketball teams tend to do.

Players help each other. They work out together. Sabonis mentioned that Russell Westbrook’s work ethic and willingness to come in early with him to work on defense and skills so he could get playing time Was a huge reason he made it. Oladipo said the same thing. That he didn’t know the day to day work it took to be a star until he saw how hard Westbrook worked every single day, and it changed his approach. Doesn’t mean he “made” them. Means stars influence their teammates….but dudes have to get credit for their own work.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Buck Williams was also very good and MJ would have loved to play with him. MJ with Walter Davis would have been something special too. Hell, you could have replaced Pippen with Mark Jackson, Kevin Johnson, and Reggie Miller, they were all in Pippen's draft class.

Pippen wasn't ready made so you could say that MJ helping Pippen to develop slowed his chances to win a championship

Edit: With that said MJ made Pippen and Grant thanks to their Breakfast Club workouts.

Kobe made Trevor Ariza and Pau Gasol

Horace Grant wasn't part of the "Breakfast Club" that was a second threepeat thing. Trevor Ariza was a career roleplayer the two seasons with Kobe didn't change him just gave him some fame and rings. You are confusing the fame and winning that guys get playing with great players with them actually being trained by those players. Not the case at all roleplayer like Ariza learned how to play off superstar Kobe but he's still a career 10ppg player.


How did Pippen slow down Jordan's chances of winning a championship when they won 6 together? Jordan may have won sooner if the Bulls traded young Pip for a great player but that's not pippen’s fault taking a few years to mature is normal.

[BigShotBob]

Pau was 27 when he got to the Lakers. Losing to the dynasty Spurs, Nash/Amare/Marion Suns, and the 06 Mavs who blew the title with Battier, Miller, and James Posey doesn’t mean he didn’t learn to play till he had Kobe, Odom, and Bynum instead.


And Pippen had 24/6/5 and 3 steals in the very first start of his career….a win or go home game they eliminated the Cavs his rookie year. He wasn’t consistent as many rookies aren’t but he showed he could play right away. Plenty of hall of famers take year and years to develop. Nash and Alex English weren’t anything close to stars till they were 26-27. Not like taking 2 years to become an all star is weirdly long.

Something about being next to those big name guys…


I’m sure being on the second team in practice against wilt every day helped Nate Thurmond become the Hall of Fame defender he did but I somehow doubt anyone was writing articles in the 70s to suggest Wilt created a lottery pick with special athleticism and drive that made him a lottery pick to begin with.


Somewhere in early days of major national media the cults of personality exploded and stars started getting credit for their teammates existing when they worked out and practice together, like basketball teams tend to do.

Players help each other. They work out together. Sabonis mentioned that Russell Westbrook’s work ethic and willingness to come in early with him to work on defense and skills so he could get playing time Was a huge reason he made it. Oladipo said the same thing. That he didn’t know the day to day work it took to be a star until he saw how hard Westbrook worked every single day, and it changed his approach. Doesn’t mean he “made” them. Means stars influence their teammates….but dudes have to get credit for their own work.

I knew you'd take what I said and ran with it. I'm saying that Kobe ignited Pau's game and compeitive drive. You had Pau going at KG with tenacity and refusing to back down to anyone. Not sure why you're including injury ridden and 6 ppg Bynum in the mix sounds like you're going down a strange narrative.

Pau changed with Kobe. Skill wise he always had it but the fire wasn't always there. He was lamented as Gasoft for quite awhile and he was always on the trading block (kind of like Pippen) but Kobe loved Pau and Pau took from Kobe. As a competitor there is a night and day difference that he most likely wouldn't have cultivated anywhere else.

Pippen scored 8 points in 30 minutes in game 2 and the Bulls still won. In that same game Horace Grant was 14/14 in 33 minutes. In the elimnation game you reference Pippen played 39 minutes and had a decent game, but so did Dave Corzine.

If you think Pippen didn't benefit from playing against MJ in practice (which has been well documented) then I don't know what to tell you.

For reference, Moses Malone made Barkley (well documented) and Moses Malone made Hakeem (well documented) because they trained and played against one another. Are you going to deny that as well when the players themselves will tell you that Moses molded them into who they are?

There are a lot of talented players that never live up to their potential due to not having anyone to help cultivate their talent with.


Not sure why you're acting brand new. Fans can't speculate on things that players aren't speaking on. Players crediting part of their success with watching how Kobe trains and approaches games (Caron Butler said Kobe in LA helped cultivate him into the player he was in Washington) isn't something fans made up. It comes from the horse's mouth.


"Made" in this context suggest they stuck together and won together. If Oladipo and Sabonis stayed with Westbrook and they went on to win together, then we would have heard a lot of Westbrook's exemplary leadership skills and how he "made" them. But they went on to do other things in other places and now we don't hear about that. That's just the way it is

[BigShotBob]

Horace Grant wasn't part of the "Breakfast Club" that was a second threepeat thing. Trevor Ariza was a career roleplayer the two seasons with Kobe didn't change him just gave him some fame and rings. You are confusing the fame and winning that guys get playing with great players with them actually being trained by those players. Not the case at all roleplayer like Ariza learned how to play off superstar Kobe but he's still a career 10ppg player.


How did Pippen slow down Jordan's chances of winning a championship when they won 6 together? Jordan may have won sooner if the Bulls traded young Pip for a great player but that's not pippen’s fault taking a few years to mature is normal.

Before their championship season in 91 they all dedicated themselves to working out together and never going down like that again. But MJ used to ride Horace and tell him to be mentally tough in the face of adversity. Horace has said this.

Trevor Ariza is one of my favorite players ever during his tenure as a Laker because he did all the little things to win. The competitive fire he played with came from playing alongside Kobe. He's never had an impact anywhere else that he's had in LA even though he's had better statistical seasons.


It's a loose theory. Maybe with Pippen Jordan wins more due to their fit but with someone like Kevin Johnson they win right away but lose more down the road. Not saying it's right or wrong but it's not like it was Pippen or bust. A lot of good-great players would have been a great fit next to MJ because he's MJ. Anything beats Orlando Woolridge.

[Real Men Wear Green]

All just sounds like hero worship to me. Nonstars work hard to.

[BigShotBob]

All just sounds like hero worship to me. Nonstars work hard to.

I'm being specific with my examples. I don't think MJ made Paxon, I don't think Rasheed Wallace made ZBo, I don't think Duncan made Manu, Parker, or Kawhi, I don't think Steph made Klay, etc etc.

[Kblaze8855]

I knew you'd take what I said and ran with it. I'm saying that Kobe ignited Pau's game and compeitive drive. You had Pau going at KG with tenacity and refusing to back down to anyone. Not sure why you're including injury ridden and 6 ppg Bynum in the mix sounds like you're going down a strange narrative.

Pau changed with Kobe. Skill wise he always had it but the fire wasn't always there. He was lamented as Gasoft for quite awhile and he was always on the trading block (kind of like Pippen) but Kobe loved Pau and Pau took from Kobe. As a competitor there is a night and day difference that he most likely wouldn't have cultivated anywhere else.

Pippen scored 8 points in 30 minutes in game 2 and the Bulls still won. In that same game Horace Grant was 14/14 in 33 minutes. In the elimnation game you reference Pippen played 39 minutes and had a decent game, but so did Dave Corzine.

If you think Pippen didn't benefit from playing against MJ in practice (which has been well documented) then I don't know what to tell you.

For reference, Moses Malone made Barkley (well documented) and Moses Malone made Hakeem (well documented) because they trained and played against one another. Are you going to deny that as well when the players themselves will tell you that Moses molded them into who they are?

There are a lot of talented players that never live up to their potential due to not having anyone to help cultivate their talent with.


Not sure why you're acting brand new. Fans can't speculate on things that players aren't speaking on. Players crediting part of their success with watching how Kobe trains and approaches games (Caron Butler said Kobe in LA helped cultivate him into the player he was in Washington) isn't something fans made up. It comes from the horse's mouth.


"Made" in this context suggest they stuck together and won together. If Oladipo and Sabonis stayed with Westbrook and they went on to win together, then we would have heard a lot of Westbrook's exemplary leadership skills and how he "made" them. But they went on to do other things in other places and now we don't hear about that. That's just the way it is



At a glance there were about seven things in there I either didn’t say or specifically said the opposite of that you then asked me if I’m saying. Like how do I say:



Players help each other. They work out together.


And you ask if I’m saying two players who worked out together didn’t help each other?

Theres too much of that in there for me to bother with.

But yes….Moses Malone did not literally make Charles Barkley. The story he tells about pulling Moses aside, and having them train after Moses told him he was fat and needed to lose weight, was after he was already destroying people.

He’s told the story in detail. He was coming off the bench at the time and had already given the Celtics work and had other big games. Moses no doubt improved his conditioning and professionalism but the hyperbole players use talking about friends and legends doesn’t make it literally true.

Barkley or Hakeem saying without Moses there’s no then means no more than Jordan saying without Pippen there’s no Jordan or praising guys from college or Dean Smith.

None of it is literally true.

It’s especially whimsical in the case of Pau. Nobody gets “made” at 27. And he certainly didn’t learn he could go at KG in LA


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/VictoriousPointlessCockroach-size_restricted.gif




And Kobe fans shitting on him means no more than every great second options biggest haters being the best players fans. There are no bigger haters of Pippen than guys like 3ball(…). No bigger haters of Gasol than Kobe fans. No bigger haters of Kyrie than Lebron fans. No bigger haters of Draymond or Klay than Steph fans.

Unfortunately that’s sports. You can’t be good and with a star without the stars fans making you out to be garbage he made into a star. And any indication from the other guy that they worked with the star is taken as proof and any indication from the star they needed the other guy is taken as just being magnanimous.

Its a star fetish and little more.

Everyone praises and gives respect to their mentors. It’s usually a treasured older player. What is someone going to say? I did it all myself and none of my teams veterans were of any use?

Chris Webber talked about how Mullin showed him what professional work ethic was and how to do this and that. That’s how it goes. The young guys learn their way by watching the veterans and the ones with respect give props later.

Doesnt mean Hakeem had David Robinson “Just bamboozled” because of Moses Malone summer games in 1982 any more than Kareem kicked ass in 1980 because he worked out with wilt when he was half a kid.

You show respect when asked. Especially so when guy passes or it’s time for him to be somehow honored. But people don’t create stars. If they did…nobody…would stop at 1-2 and lose.

Its like crediting a science teacher for creating Einstein as if his same methods didn’t fail to create it in his other 6000 students.

Obviously…there was something different about the one who made it. If you could teach it you would. But you can’t. I’m sure whoever taught Beethoven to write music…didn’t have his methods produce 38 more.