Dennis Rodman on the 1996 Chicago Bulls

[Lebron23]

"We could not have won 70 games playing against 1980's teams." Majority of the greatest NBA Teams of All time played in the 1980's"
- Dennis Rodman, 1996


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMi0DRIRjNY

[Real Men Wear Green]

https://firstsportz.com/nba-news-dennis-rodman-makes-bold-claim-of-this-bulls-player-shutting-down-lebron-james-and-kevin-durant/

[Jasper]

it is understandable ... it was an era the NBA will never forget : exceedingly physical with very tough defense , and low scoring games.

Some of the games had scores in the 60's.

[Gruppenführer]

The greatest NBA picture ever taken. Right in front of Gene Siskel.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LNp6mQPiuOo/maxresdefault.jpg



This is the second greatest picture:


https://www.mountaineers.org/blog/images/schrempf.jpg/@@images/a103006e-9f03-42e9-8744-87daeaf0eece.jpeg

[Hey Yo]

it is understandable ... it was an era the NBA will never forget : exceedingly physical with very tough defense , and low scoring games.

Some of the games had scores in the 60's.

:oldlol:

[Axe]

No pip, no chip.

[Soundwave]

It kinda goes both ways, if the Bulls had their shit together and gave Jordan a team as loaded as what Bird had for the Celtics or Magic had for the Lakers, could that team win 70 wins? Potentially sure.

The Bulls suffered due to overexpansion of the league too, they were never that deep especially scoring wise, the Celtics/Lakers/Pistons even always went like 4-5 guys deep in terms of impact scorers, the Bulls never had that.

Give Jordan the 86 Celtics to play or 85 Lakers and take Magic or Bird off and they could win 70 games.

Jordan always had to shoulder a large proportion of the offence by himself because the Bulls were never really that deep offensively, especially when Pippen's jumper wasn't going which was like every third game.

In all honesty Jordan kinda got screwed by the Trail Blazers being stupid and taking Sam Bowie (lol), if he had gotten drafted by the Blazers he immediately would've had a star no.2 in Clyde Drexler and other good scoring options like Terry Porter. That Blazers team with Jordan on it would've been deeper and better than the Bulls.

The Bulls were always a poorly ran franchise (and plainly have been since Jordan retired as they haven't done shit). Sure taking a chance on Rodman was nice, but they basically had no choice as San Antonio was giving him away for free and Jordan was the only alpha type of personality that could keep Dennis even kind of in check, David Robinson and Shaq/Kobe afterwards could not.

And even Rodman was a non-option offensively, the Bulls basically played 4 on 5 offence because Dennis wasn't going to shoot unless it was like plan D.

[L.Kizzle]

Rodman's Bulls career is very overrated. I remember him more in that time frame wrasslin and marrying himself.
Especially in the playoffs, he underperformed.

[Soundwave]

Rodman's Bulls career is very overrated. I remember him more in that time frame wrasslin and marrying himself.
Especially in the playoffs, he underperformed.

He was good in the 96 playoffs, but in 97 he got outplayed by Bison Dele and in 98 he was a freaking mess at times taking off to go wrestling in the middle of the post season and all kinds of random shit, just a total head case.

[CurryOverLebron]

Jordan couldn't dominate 1980s because he was too young. You need to play several seasons before you get a good roster built around you, hire the right coach, and learn from the experience of losing to improve on your deficiencies (losing fat, gaining muscles, improving skills). Only a few lucky superstars like Magic, Kobe, and Duncan win championships early in their careers. So they have to find new motivation like winning without Kareem, Shaq, or shortened season.

[Soundwave]

Jordan couldn't dominate 1980s because he was simply too young. You need to play several seasons before you get a good roster built around you, hire the right coach, and learn from the experience of losing to improve on your deficiencies (lose fat, gain muscles, improve your skills). Only a few lucky superstars like Magic, Bird, Kobe, and Duncan win championships early in their careers.

The Bulls were never that loaded to be frank even.

The Lakers/Pistons/Celtics all had like 5-6 legit scoring threats on the roster, the Bulls had realistically like 3 (Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc).

Losing Grant and Armstrong for the 2nd 3-peat really thinned out their offensive depth that they should have had by the 91-93 teams didn't have Kukoc, the 94 Bulls team should have been the most talented version of the Bulls, but Jordan retired. Ron Harper was a ghost of himself offensively and athletically by the time he got to the Bulls because of injury, if they had Ron Harper in his peak/prime ... that's now a different story.

[Airupthere]

Some good points brought up so far but one very important question not mentioned yet is, put Rodman on the 98 Jazz roster, how. many. ringz?

[Soundwave]

Some good points brought up so far but one very important question not mentioned yet is, put Rodman on the 98 Jazz roster, how. many. ringz?

lol, there'd be a team mutiny by game 30 as the Jazz wouldn't be able to control Rodman who'd probably be balls deep in some married mormon threesome or some other scandal by that point or him losing his mind in "boring ass Utah" and running off to Vegas every other week.

[sdot_thadon]

It kinda goes both ways, if the Bulls had their shit together and gave Jordan a team as loaded as what Bird had for the Celtics or Magic had for the Lakers, could that team win 70 wins? Potentially sure.

The Bulls suffered due to overexpansion of the league too, they were never that deep especially scoring wise, the Celtics/Lakers/Pistons even always went like 4-5 guys deep in terms of impact scorers, the Bulls never had that.

Give Jordan the 86 Celtics to play or 85 Lakers and take Magic or Bird off and they could win 70 games.

Jordan always had to shoulder a large proportion of the offence by himself because the Bulls were never really that deep offensively, especially when Pippen's jumper wasn't going which was like every third game.

In all honesty Jordan kinda got screwed by the Trail Blazers being stupid and taking Sam Bowie (lol), if he had gotten drafted by the Blazers he immediately would've had a star no.2 in Clyde Drexler and other good scoring options like Terry Porter. That Blazers team with Jordan on it would've been deeper and better than the Bulls.

The Bulls were always a poorly ran franchise (and plainly have been since Jordan retired as they haven't done shit). Sure taking a chance on Rodman was nice, but they basically had no choice as San Antonio was giving him away for free and Jordan was the only alpha type of personality that could keep Dennis even kind of in check, David Robinson and Shaq/Kobe afterwards could not.

And even Rodman was a non-option offensively, the Bulls basically played 4 on 5 offence because Dennis wasn't going to shoot unless it was like plan D.

I truly dislike this bit of propaganda Mj fans perpetrate now days. Mj did not shoulder that much of the scoring load because he HAD to, that's bs. He literally had teammates bitching and moaning behind the scenes of the 1st 3peat about shot attempts. He also actively pursued scoring numbers and scoring titles. A system literally needed to be put in place to limit his grip on the offense lol. Some of you guys claimed to have watched it live and for the life of me I can't see how you guys don't remember him going back into games well out of hand sometimes to jack up 7 or 8 shots in a row to get his average for the night. Whether hes your GOAT or right there up top doesnt really matter but its time to start calling it like it really was fellas. Mythology doesn't really work well in 2023.

[sdot_thadon]

And on topic? They could have possibly won that many in a season during the 80s, they were that great of a team. What would have likely been different is the amount of titles they'd have been able to win. Remember Mj has never beat Bird and they'd have hell dealing with the front lines of the 80s.

[Xiao Yao You]

Some good points brought up so far but one very important question not mentioned yet is, put Rodman on the 98 Jazz roster, how. many. ringz?

The Jazz would have never had Rodman on their roster at that time.

[Soundwave]

I truly dislike this bit of propaganda Mj fans perpetrate now days. Mj did not shoulder that much of the scoring load because he HAD to, that's bs. He literally had teammates bitching and moaning behind the scenes of the 1st 3peat about shot attempts. He also actively pursued scoring numbers and scoring titles. A system literally needed to be put in place to limit his grip on the offense lol. Some of you guys claimed to have watched it live and for the life of me I can't see how you guys don't remember him going back into games well out of hand sometimes to jack up 7 or 8 shots in a row to get his average for the night. Whether hes your GOAT or right there up top doesnt really matter but its time to start calling it like it really was fellas. Mythology doesn't really work well in 2023.

Bull shit, the 80s Lakers, Pistons, Celtics all had at least 1-2 legit more scoring options than the Bulls.

80s Lakers had Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, even Bob McAdoo for a while who could hit double digit scoring averages in 1985 and Michael Cooper who could also pitch in.

80s Celtics had Bird, McHale, Parrish, D. Johnson, even guys beyond that like Ainge and Walton in '86 who could play.

Bad Boy Pistons had Isiah, Dumars, Vinny Johnson, Mark Aguire, Adrian Dantley who all average over 13 ppg and then had OK role players in Rick Mahorn and I'm not even mentioning Rodman.

Those are deep teams.

Shit even the 95-96 Orlando Magic were deeper than the Bulls ... Shaq, Penny, Grant, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott.

The Bulls were always a 12-15 ppg scorer below those teams. The deepest Bulls team was actually probably the 93 team not the 96 72-win one, as BJ Armstong was improving, but then they lost Armstrong because of the expansion draft in 1995.

So when people keep saying "expansion duh hur!!!!", that hurt the Bulls too, BJ Armstrong was the 93 Bulls 4th leading scorer, just 1 ppg behind Horace Grant as a the 3rd leading scorer.

The Bulls never gave Jordan some super loaded offensively talented lineup like Bird and Magic and even Isiah Thomas enjoyed.

[97 bulls]

Bull shit, the 80s Lakers, Pistons, Celtics all had at least 1-2 legit more scoring options than the Bulls.

80s Lakers had Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, even Bob McAdoo for a while who could hit double digit scoring averages in 1985 and Michael Cooper who could also pitch in.

80s Celtics had Bird, McHale, Parrish, D. Johnson, even guys beyond that like Ainge and Walton in '86 who could play.

Bad Boy Pistons had Isiah, Dumars, Vinny Johnson, Mark Aguire, Adrian Dantley who all average over 13 ppg and then had OK role players in Rick Mahorn and I'm not even mentioning Rodman.

Those are deep teams.

Shit even the 95-96 Orlando Magic were deeper than the Bulls ... Shaq, Penny, Grant, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott.

The Bulls were always a 12-15 ppg scorer below those teams. The deepest Bulls team was actually probably the 93 team not the 96 72-win one, as BJ Armstong was improving, but then they lost Armstrong because of the expansion draft in 1995.

So when people keep saying "expansion duh hur!!!!", that hurt the Bulls too, BJ Armstrong was the 93 Bulls 4th leading scorer, just 1 ppg behind Horace Grant as a the 3rd leading scorer.

The Bulls never gave Jordan some super loaded offensively talented lineup like Bird and Magic and even Isiah Thomas enjoyed.

Are you not accounting for pace? The 80s was a lot more uptempo than the mid 90s. Put the 96 Bulls in the mid 80s and there's no doubt that their number look like the following roughly


Jordan 34ppg
Pippen 24ppg
Kukoc 18ppg
Harper 15ppg
Longley 12ppg
Kerr 10ppg.

The big issue with the Bulls when compared to other teams is that Jordan took so many shots.

I don't see how the Bulls were loaded. They have 4 Hall of Famers on their team. The best rebounder ever, the most versatile player ever, the best 3pt shooter ever statistically, and they proved that they could remain competitive without Jordan. Something the Celtics Pistons and Lakers couldn't do. I mean, if those team were soooo mich better and deeper than the Bulls, why didn't they get close to 70 wins in an expansion year? The best the Pistons could muster was 63 if I remember correctly. Not to mention, the Bulls had a better record vs the non expansion teams than they did the expansion teams.

[Street Hunger]

Rodman and Horace Grant were pretty perfect Bulls PF role players.

[Reggie43]

Yeah the obvious thing is that the Bulls had decent depth relative to their era but compared to those great 80s teams its not even close.

[97 bulls]

Yeah the obvious thing is that the Bulls had decent depth relative to their era but compared to those great 80s teams its not even close.

What do you think would be the average ppg of the players on the 96 Bulls if they played in the mid 80s? Please give am average for each of the top 7 players.

[Reggie43]

What do you think would be the average ppg of the players on the 96 Bulls if they played in the mid 80s? Please give am average for each of the top 7 players.

They would definitely score more but it wouldnt make them better than they actually are especially the role players and bench guys.

[BigShotBob]

I truly dislike this bit of propaganda Mj fans perpetrate now days. Mj did not shoulder that much of the scoring load because he HAD to, that's bs. He literally had teammates bitching and moaning behind the scenes of the 1st 3peat about shot attempts. He also actively pursued scoring numbers and scoring titles. A system literally needed to be put in place to limit his grip on the offense lol. Some of you guys claimed to have watched it live and for the life of me I can't see how you guys don't remember him going back into games well out of hand sometimes to jack up 7 or 8 shots in a row to get his average for the night. Whether hes your GOAT or right there up top doesnt really matter but its time to start calling it like it really was fellas. Mythology doesn't really work well in 2023.

Easy to bring up mythology when you flat out lie. MJ had the scoring burden because he had to. Pippen is a life time 16 ppg scorer. Nobody else on the Bulls averaged more than that. At Pippen's best when Mike was gone he averaged 22.

The end.

[97 bulls]

They would definitely score more but it wouldnt make them better than they actually are especially the role players and bench guys.

So give me a rough estimate please.

[97 bulls]

Easy to bring up mythology when you flat out lie. MJ had the scoring burden because he had to. Pippen is a life time 16 ppg scorer. Nobody else on the Bulls averaged more than that. At Pippen's best when Mike was gone he averaged 22.

The end.

That's not true. He said himself that he wanted to lead the league in scoring. He said all he had to do was average 8ppg a quarter.

[warriorfan]

Are you not accounting for pace? The 80s was a lot more uptempo than the mid 90s. Put the 96 Bulls in the mid 80s and there's no doubt that their number look like the following roughly


Jordan 34ppg
Pippen 24ppg
Kukoc 18ppg
Harper 15ppg
Longley 12ppg
Kerr 10ppg.

The big issue with the Bulls when compared to other teams is that Jordan took so many shots.

I don't see how the Bulls were loaded. They have 4 Hall of Famers on their team. The best rebounder ever, the most versatile player ever, the best 3pt shooter ever statistically, and they proved that they could remain competitive without Jordan. Something the Celtics Pistons and Lakers couldn't do. I mean, if those team were soooo mich better and deeper than the Bulls, why didn't they get close to 70 wins in an expansion year? The best the Pistons could muster was 63 if I remember correctly. Not to mention, the Bulls had a better record vs the non expansion teams than they did the expansion teams.

Whut? So kukoc and harper would score 30% and 50% more respectively while Jordan would only score 10% more?

:roll: :roll:

this entire post is hilarious

[97 bulls]

Whut? So kukoc and harper would score 30% and 50% more respectively while Jordan would only score 10% more?

:roll: :roll:

this entire post is hilarious

Yes because Jordan only scored so much because he was after that scoring title. So the others are the ones that would be more effected. With more opportunities the other players would get more chances.

[97 bulls]

This is what Jordan told Carmello Anthony with regards on how to average 30ppg.

Carmelo recalls how Jordan broke down scoring to him by quarter.

“Say you average about 28, there’s an easy way to get it. He (Jordan) said, ‘break down 7 points a quarter. That’s 2-3 layups, 2-3 free throws. You get hot one quarter, you might have 11, 12, 13 (points) one quarter, now second quarter you can pace, you get your 14 (points) in two quarters.’


So Jordan scoring so much was never about needing to. It was about trying to get over that 30ppg threshold.

[sdot_thadon]

Bull shit, the 80s Lakers, Pistons, Celtics all had at least 1-2 legit more scoring options than the Bulls.

80s Lakers had Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, even Bob McAdoo for a while who could hit double digit scoring averages in 1985 and Michael Cooper who could also pitch in.

80s Celtics had Bird, McHale, Parrish, D. Johnson, even guys beyond that like Ainge and Walton in '86 who could play.

Bad Boy Pistons had Isiah, Dumars, Vinny Johnson, Mark Aguire, Adrian Dantley who all average over 13 ppg and then had OK role players in Rick Mahorn and I'm not even mentioning Rodman.

Those are deep teams.

Shit even the 95-96 Orlando Magic were deeper than the Bulls ... Shaq, Penny, Grant, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott.

The Bulls were always a 12-15 ppg scorer below those teams. The deepest Bulls team was actually probably the 93 team not the 96 72-win one, as BJ Armstong was improving, but then they lost Armstrong because of the expansion draft in 1995.

So when people keep saying "expansion duh hur!!!!", that hurt the Bulls too, BJ Armstrong was the 93 Bulls 4th leading scorer, just 1 ppg behind Horace Grant as a the 3rd leading scorer.

The Bulls never gave Jordan some super loaded offensively talented lineup like Bird and Magic and even Isiah Thomas enjoyed.

None of those teams had a number 1 shooting enough times to average over 30 a game either, so those opportunities went to guys who make up what you call "depth". It definitely doesn't work both ways, you can't have a guy shooting 25 plus times a game and have those extra guys averaging double figures. It was a huge part of the criticism thrown his way early in his career. Also big time bullet point: he was seemingly one man down. In comparison to other alltime greats teams, but he was also one man up basically on any team he faced during their championship runs. He almost always had more than what he faced.

[sdot_thadon]

Easy to bring up mythology when you flat out lie. MJ had the scoring burden because he had to. Pippen is a life time 16 ppg scorer. Nobody else on the Bulls averaged more than that. At Pippen's best when Mike was gone he averaged 22.

The end.

Lies? OK. So during 91-98 Pippen averaged 20 a game. Grant and Armstrong were begging for more shots during the 1st 3peat. In 94 without Mj, Scottie made them both Allstars.....

[Soundwave]

Lies? OK. So during 91-98 Pippen averaged 20 a game. Grant and Armstrong were begging for more shots during the 1st 3peat. In 94 without Mj, Scottie made them both Allstars.....

Grant and Armstrong were OK, neither of them could really average 18-20 ppg anywhere though with regularity, but the Bulls had BJ Armstrong basically taken away in 1995, so that kinda offset any gains they made by getting Kukoc by the time Jordan returned.

Rodman also couldn't score as much as Grant.

The 1st 3-peat, BJ Armstrong was still coming into his own and a young raw player in the first two championships, it's only really in 92-93 that he started to become a fairly decent player.

But c'mon compare this to the Celtics that had like James Worthy as the no.3 option or what the Celtics or Pistons had as their no.3/4 options, it totally shits all over Horace Grant or BJ Armstrong.

It's not like Jordan was holding back Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong, they were OK players but not like superstars or even star tier players, they're definitely not James Worthy or Kevin McHale tier players.

[Da_Realist]

Lies? OK. So during 91-98 Pippen averaged 20 a game. Grant and Armstrong were begging for more shots during the 1st 3peat. In 94 without Mj, Scottie made them both Allstars.....

The difference in Grant and Armstrong between the 93 and 94 seasons is negligible. A point or two here and a rebound there. They weren't better players, they were the exact same. No team devised schemes to stop them. They were what they always were.

[Micku]

I truly dislike this bit of propaganda Mj fans perpetrate now days. Mj did not shoulder that much of the scoring load because he HAD to, that's bs. He literally had teammates bitching and moaning behind the scenes of the 1st 3peat about shot attempts. He also actively pursued scoring numbers and scoring titles. A system literally needed to be put in place to limit his grip on the offense lol. Some of you guys claimed to have watched it live and for the life of me I can't see how you guys don't remember him going back into games well out of hand sometimes to jack up 7 or 8 shots in a row to get his average for the night. Whether hes your GOAT or right there up top doesnt really matter but its time to start calling it like it really was fellas. Mythology doesn't really work well in 2023.

I remember a bunch of games where it felt like MJ was the only that could score tbh. It was mostly in the 80s and the late 90s. The offense really relied on MJ. And even when his teammates had an open shot, they couldn't make it. You could argue that it MJ messed up rhythm, but it wasn't that really.

Like MJ usually scored within the flow of the offense. It wasn't like how Kobe sometimes disrupt the offense back in the day because he got impatient. Although MJ DID do that every once in a while, but it wasn't that bad. The idea was that with the triangle, it would give the ball to other players to get them more involved and improve on the Bulls chances. It worked, but you can also argue the teammates improved too regardless of the triangle, but I think both are true. Regardless of the playstyle, MJ plus/minus was crazy high for the ppl who actually tried to calculate back then. They were always better while he was on the floor. Created a bunch of open shots for his teammates, but there were many times when he didn't pass it. He got better at that later on in his career.

MJ in the 80s would've do wonders for how the system is set up with the amount of spacing they have. He needed shooters to pass to, lol. Cuz he certainly didn't have it back in the 80s.

[Micku]

This is what Jordan told Carmello Anthony with regards on how to average 30ppg.

Carmelo recalls how Jordan broke down scoring to him by quarter.

“Say you average about 28, there’s an easy way to get it. He (Jordan) said, ‘break down 7 points a quarter. That’s 2-3 layups, 2-3 free throws. You get hot one quarter, you might have 11, 12, 13 (points) one quarter, now second quarter you can pace, you get your 14 (points) in two quarters.’


So Jordan scoring so much was never about needing to. It was about trying to get over that 30ppg threshold.

Well, Shaq said a similar thing to many centers too tho. I think that's more of a scorer mentality than it is purely MJ. Although being able to control the pace of the game and knowing when to score and when to be a decoy is the true mastery of the art. Some players are better than others. That's when shot selection takes into account too and whatever if you can execute.

[Xiao Yao You]

I remember a bunch of games where it felt like MJ was the only that could score tbh. It was mostly in the 80s and the late 90s. The offense really relied on MJ. And even when his teammates had an open shot, they couldn't make it. You could argue that it MJ messed up rhythm, but it wasn't that really.

Like MJ usually scored within the flow of the offense. It wasn't like how Kobe sometimes disrupt the offense back in the day because he got impatient. Although MJ DID do that every once in a while, but it wasn't that bad. The idea was that with the triangle, it would give the ball to other players to get them more involved and improve on the Bulls chances. It worked, but you can also argue the teammates improved too regardless of the triangle, but I think both are true. Regardless of the playstyle, MJ plus/minus was crazy high for the ppl who actually tried to calculate back then. They were always better while he was on the floor. Created a bunch of open shots for his teammates, but there were many times when he didn't pass it. He got better at that later on in his career.

MJ in the 80s would've do wonders for how the system is set up with the amount of spacing they have. He needed shooters to pass to, lol. Cuz he certainly didn't have it back in the 80s.

I remember he'd often start out games trying to get his teammates involved and he'd have to take over in the 4th

[97 bulls]

Well, Shaq said a similar thing to many centers too tho. I think that's more of a scorer mentality than it is purely MJ. Although being able to control the pace of the game and knowing when to score and when to be a decoy is the true mastery of the art. Some players are better than others. That's when shot selection takes into account too and whatever if you can execute.

I see. I only brought it up because it's been routinely said that Jordan took all those shots because he had to. When Jordan himself said he did it cuz he wanted to.

[kawhileonard2]

I see. I only brought it up because it's been routinely said that Jordan took all those shots because he had to. When Jordan himself said he did it cuz he wanted to.

Jordan had to. They never won a title or got to the ECF when he didn't. Prove me wrong!

[97 bulls]

Jordan had to. They never won a title or got to the ECF when he didn't. Prove me wrong!

How are they supposed to? If he's hellbent on leading the league in scoring.

[3ba11]

If jordan had Bird or Magic's cast, he would've won 70-80 games every year

Expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's so it was a 2-star vs 2-star format - if the 80's was like that then MJ could've won with Woolridge.. Woolridge didn't get time to develop with prime MJ like pippen did and he didn't get to play in a 2-star vs 2-star format.

[Xiao Yao You]

If jordan had Bird or Magic's cast, he would've won 70-80 games every year

Expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's so it was a 2-star vs 2-star format - if the 80's was like that then MJ could've won with Woolridge.. Woolridge didn't get time to develop with prime MJ like pippen did and he didn't get to play in a 2-star vs 2-star format.

Woolridge was doing coke. He wasn't the guy

[3ba11]

Woolridge was doing coke. He wasn't the guy


Cocaine aside, anyone will win alongside Jordan in a 2-star vs 2-star format.

Out of all the players in history that had a playoff run of 15 games and 35 mpg, Pippen had the worst efficiency ever and he did this twice (96' and 98' Playoffs).. So Jordan won 2 titles with literally the biggest bricklayer and lane-clogger ever

Jordan had #1 offenses and 3-peated with a team that was playing 4 on 5 offensively (rodman) and had the biggest lane-clogger ever at sidekick (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for entire 96-98' Playoffs)...

Otoh, a guy like Lebron can't win with lane-cloggers and his style of imposing spot-up roles could never develop a Pippen, Ingram or Kuzma to begin with

[sdot_thadon]

Grant and Armstrong were OK, neither of them could really average 18-20 ppg anywhere though with regularity, but the Bulls had BJ Armstrong basically taken away in 1995, so that kinda offset any gains they made by getting Kukoc by the time Jordan returned.

Rodman also couldn't score as much as Grant.

The 1st 3-peat, BJ Armstrong was still coming into his own and a young raw player in the first two championships, it's only really in 92-93 that he started to become a fairly decent player.

But c'mon compare this to the Celtics that had like James Worthy as the no.3 option or what the Celtics or Pistons had as their no.3/4 options, it totally shits all over Horace Grant or BJ Armstrong.

It's not like Jordan was holding back Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong, they were OK players but not like superstars or even star tier players, they're definitely not James Worthy or Kevin McHale tier players.

The whole point isn't that they were star tier players lol, were comparing them to 2nd options here.....

I agree they would never get the amount of shots required to average 18-20 points a game. Grant was enough to knock the Bulls out of the playoffs in 95. He was a solid player that is the type of guy you'd want on a contender. Could score consistently in his role and give you all league level defense.

[sdot_thadon]

The difference in Grant and Armstrong between the 93 and 94 seasons is negligible. A point or two here and a rebound there. They weren't better players, they were the exact same. No team devised schemes to stop them. They were what they always were.

I beg to differ, one year says allstar and one doesn't. Huge difference. And they were the support to basically a game difference in record minus the goat. Let's be real.

[sdot_thadon]

I remember a bunch of games where it felt like MJ was the only that could score tbh. It was mostly in the 80s and the late 90s. The offense really relied on MJ. And even when his teammates had an open shot, they couldn't make it. You could argue that it MJ messed up rhythm, but it wasn't that really.

Like MJ usually scored within the flow of the offense. It wasn't like how Kobe sometimes disrupt the offense back in the day because he got impatient. Although MJ DID do that every once in a while, but it wasn't that bad. The idea was that with the triangle, it would give the ball to other players to get them more involved and improve on the Bulls chances. It worked, but you can also argue the teammates improved too regardless of the triangle, but I think both are true. Regardless of the playstyle, MJ plus/minus was crazy high for the ppl who actually tried to calculate back then. They were always better while he was on the floor. Created a bunch of open shots for his teammates, but there were many times when he didn't pass it. He got better at that later on in his career.

MJ in the 80s would've do wonders for how the system is set up with the amount of spacing they have. He needed shooters to pass to, lol. Cuz he certainly didn't have it back in the 80s.
I agree with a lot you've said here because at times Mj was the only one that could score, that goes for most stars we've seen tho. I do disagree with the notion he never hijacked the offense, on the contrary he did it pretty often, so did Scottie. They were the only guys on the team given carte blanche to do so. All it took is for a guy to score on him on the other end lol.

[sdot_thadon]

If jordan had Bird or Magic's cast, he would've won 70-80 games every year

Expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's so it was a 2-star vs 2-star format - if the 80's was like that then MJ could've won with Woolridge.. Woolridge didn't get time to develop with prime MJ like pippen did and he didn't get to play in a 2-star vs 2-star format.

If he had Bird's or Magics casts he'd have made then lesser players by taking their shots away. Soundwave said In his post Mj didn't have a guy like McHale or worthy that low in the depth chart but neither of those teams had a 30 ppg scorer taking that many shots either, it balances out. More shots for your supporting cast sometimes, I dunno.....makes them end up scoring more points....jeez does that sound like sorcery?

[3ba11]

I agree with a lot you've said here because at times Mj was the only one that could score, that goes for most stars we've seen tho. I do disagree with the notion he never hijacked the offense, on the contrary he did it pretty often, so did Scottie. They were the only guys on the team given carte blanche to do so. All it took is for a guy to score on him on the other end lol.


you're saying that MJ's teammates were much better scorers than they showed alongside MJ and that MJ just hogged all the shots, except BJ was quickly relegated to the bench on an expansion team after 3-peating alongside MJ.. Longley was also a bench player for an expansion team but 3-peated as a starter with MJ.. And we all saw Pippen collapse in 99' (14 on 40% after averaging 20 alongside MJ)

So you're off - Jordan had the least scoring help of anyone that won multiple chips... BY FAR.... Everyone in history had teammates match or lead the scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES (edit: there's 2 series where MJ led by 4 and 8 ppg)...

Btw, everyone saw Pippen's peak capability in 1994 - only 22 ppg or nearly the same as the 19-21 ppg (with more assists) that he averaged alongside MJ.. Pippen was gifted a fully-grown 3-peat dynasty in 94' and could never grow a team from infancy like 85' MJ or 05' Lebron (1st options) - Pippen did the opposite by destroying a 3-peat dynasty QUICKLY to borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned.l

[97 bulls]

you're saying that MJ's teammates were much better scorers than they showed alongside MJ and that MJ just hogged all the shots, except BJ was quickly relegated to the bench on an expansion team after 3-peating alongside MJ.. Longley was also a bench player for an expansion team but 3-peated as a starter with MJ.. And we all saw Pippen collapse in 99' (14 on 40% after averaging 20 alongside MJ)

So you're off - Jordan had the least scoring help of anyone that won multiple chips... BY FAR.... Everyone in history had teammates match or lead the scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES (edit: there's 2 series where MJ led by 4 and 8 ppg)...

Btw, everyone saw Pippen's peak capability in 1994 - only 22 ppg or nearly the same as the 19-21 ppg (with more assists) that he averaged alongside MJ.. Pippen was gifted a fully-grown 3-peat dynasty in 94' and could never grow a team from infancy like 85' MJ or 05' Lebron (1st options) - Pippen did the opposite by destroying a 3-peat dynasty QUICKLY to borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned.l

This is why you keep getting banned. This is troll talk. Pippen didn't destroy the Bulls. Grant and Scott Williams left because they felt mistreated by Bulls management. How can you expect Pippen to accomplish the same success as Jordan with less tools? Who was his Pippen in 94? Grant? Grant was Pippen's 2 but Jordan's 3.

You can't determine a whole career off one season. There's so many variable that need to be accounted for. Like Armstrong. Armstrong played behind Tim Hardaway in Golden State. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that on a bad team, and as the focal point, Armstrong could average high teens in ppg. But players often fall into a niche. Armstrong was known as a sharpshooter. So that what he worked on the most.

Pippen had a lot of miles on him by 99. He was good but not as good as he was 4-5 years prior. And he was older. Both McHale and Worthy also took over teams with Championship experience and they faired far worse than Pippen. And they, unlike Pippen, actually had very good replacements to stand in for the star players that weren't there in Reggie Lewis and Sedale Threat. Pippen got Pete Myers as well all know.

[Keno]

this was obvious, all the great players / teams got old, or injured/retired, right in time for bulls' to hit their prime.

[97 bulls]

this was obvious, all the great players / teams got old, or injured/retired, right in time for bulls' to hit their prime.

That's not fair. I never understood why the Bulld are held to a standard no other team was or has been held to.

Take the 80s. None of those teams were at full strength when they played each other. Whether it be McHale's foot or Thomas ankle, or Worthy injury in I believe 84, or Pippens Migraine.

[Axe]

this was obvious, all the great players / teams got old, or injured/retired, right in time for bulls' to hit their prime.
Then that would have included hakeem also but they still prevailed while jordan was suspended for 1.5 seasons.

[3ba11]

This is why you keep getting banned.





I get banned because you guys can't accept the facts that I post that show Lebron is a complete fraud and overrated.. You can't STAND that you worship a fraud and have an entirely lower level of hoops understanding

That's the only reason

I don't get banned for spamming because a lot of posters do that

[Phoenix]

I get banned because you guys can't accept the facts that I post that show Lebron is a complete fraud and overrated.. You can't STAND that you worship a fraud and have an entirely lower level of hoops understanding

That's the only reason

I don't get banned for spamming because a lot of posters do that

What happened to the forum you claimed to leave ISH for? Did they ban you there as well( permanently, unlike the clown show we have here)?

[97 bulls]

I get banned because you guys can't accept the facts that I post that show Lebron is a complete fraud and overrated.. You can't STAND that you worship a fraud and have an entirely lower level of hoops understanding

That's the only reason

I don't get banned for spamming because a lot of posters do that

Nobody trolls like you bro. And I land on the Jordan side of the Lebron/Jordan debate. In my opinion, Jordan is the GOAT. But I don't feel he's the GOAT for the same reasons as you. Your logic is dumb. Calling his teammates bums, saying he made players. He won all by himself. It's unreasonable. And you keep saying it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

[Axe]

Nobody trolls like you bro. And I land on the Jordan side of the Lebron/Jordan debate. In my opinion, Jordan is the GOAT. But I don't feel he's the GOAT for the same reasons as you. Your logic is dumb. Calling his teammates bums, saying he made players. He won all by himself. It's unreasonable. And you keep saying it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
:applause::bowdown::applause::bowdown:

[3ba11]

Nobody trolls like you bro. And I land on the Jordan side of the Lebron/Jordan debate. In my opinion, Jordan is the GOAT. But I don't feel he's the GOAT for the same reasons as you. Your logic is dumb. Calling his teammates bums, saying he made players. He won all by himself. It's unreasonable. And you keep saying it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.


Why can't I call a sidekick that averaged 15.7 on 34% in the Finals a bum?

What's wrong with that?

Why can't I call the biggest bricklayer and lane-clogger in the history of playoff basketball a bum? No one in history shot worse for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 mpg, and Pippen did this twice (96', 98).

If Jordan was forced to win 6 Finals with a sidekick that never reached peak-Horry stats, than why can't I call that sidekick a bum?.. Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals.

No one won more than 2 titles without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg, except MJ won 6 like that... Infact, MJ won 3 Finals without a sidekick getting 20 ppg and 2 without a sidekick getting 16.. How many does Lebron have like that?

You guys claim that great scoring help isn't everything, but that's exactly what everyone in history needed for most of their rings, except the GOAT.. So it's you guys that are being unreasonable by pretending that the thing everyone needed the most (scoring help) isn't actually that important.. You guys also lie about assists because MJ led Pippen in assists for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career, which includes 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen and 3 of 6 title runs..

Furthermore, Jordan was the only guy on the team capable of elite assists and real ball-domination in the halfcourt, while Pippen couldn't average more than 5 APG without Jordan (goat assist target).. Of course, who gives a crap if a teammate averages 5 APG because kobe didn't need that - Kobe winning without Pippen should show you that Jordan didn't need Pippen and Pippen is just the low-producing luckbox that happened to be there.. There are zero series where Pippen played above a peak-Iggy caliber but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status.

[SATAN]

https://i.postimg.cc/dVG7Wpx2/1-9.jpg

[97 bulls]

Why can't I call a sidekick that averaged 15.7 on 34% in the Finals a bum?

What's wrong with that?
He was playing hurt 3ball. He contributed in different ways. He led the playoffs in defesive rating in 96. Along with 9 rebounds and 6 assists and 3 steals. That's hardly bum material.


Why can't I call the biggest bricklayer and lane-clogger in the history of playoff basketball a bum? No one in history shot worse for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 mpg, and Pippen did this twice (96', 98).

If Jordan was forced to win 6 Finals with a sidekick that never reached peak-Horry stats, than why can't I call that sidekick a bum?.. Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals.
Youre not comparing stats, your comparing scoring. How many times have you been told that basketball goes way past scoring.


No one won more than 2 titles without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg, except MJ won 6 like that... Infact, MJ won 3 Finals without a sidekick getting 20 ppg and 2 without a sidekick getting 16.. How many does Lebron have like that?

You guys claim that great scoring help isn't everything, but that's exactly what everyone in history needed for most of their rings, except the GOAT.. So it's you guys that are being unreasonable by pretending that the thing everyone needed the most (scoring help) isn't actually that important.. You guys also lie about assists because MJ led Pippen in assists for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career, which includes 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen and 3 of 6 title runs..

Again, Jordan went into the playoffs with the most versatile player, best coach, best 3pt shooter, best rebounder, best bench player. What Jordan had, was a team full of players that didn't need to score a bunch of points to be effective.


Furthermore, Jordan was the only guy on the team capable of elite assists and real ball-domination in the halfcourt, while Pippen couldn't average more than 5 APG without Jordan (goat assist target).. Of course, who gives a crap if a teammate averages 5 APG because kobe didn't need that - Kobe winning without Pippen should show you that Jordan didn't need Pippen and Pippen is just the low-producing luckbox that happened to be there.. There are zero series where Pippen played above a peak-Iggy caliber but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status.
Kobe threatened to leave the Lakers had they not got him another hall of Fame teammate in Pau Gasol. And it's not a knock on Kobe. Cuz nobody wins by themselves. That's why you get people telling you that Jordan was 1-9. HE WASNT WINNING!!! In spite of your infatuation with points, Pippen still went farther without Jordan than Jordan did without Pippen.

I defy you to show a playoff where Iggy performed like Pippen did in 91.
22ppg, 9 rbds, 6 assts, 3 stls, 1blk on 50%, and lead the playoffs in defensive rating.

[sdot_thadon]

you're saying that MJ's teammates were much better scorers than they showed alongside MJ and that MJ just hogged all the shots, except BJ was quickly relegated to the bench on an expansion team after 3-peating alongside MJ.. Longley was also a bench player for an expansion team but 3-peated as a starter with MJ.. And we all saw Pippen collapse in 99' (14 on 40% after averaging 20 alongside MJ)

So you're off - Jordan had the least scoring help of anyone that won multiple chips... BY FAR.... Everyone in history had teammates match or lead the scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES (edit: there's 2 series where MJ led by 4 and 8 ppg)...

Btw, everyone saw Pippen's peak capability in 1994 - only 22 ppg or nearly the same as the 19-21 ppg (with more assists) that he averaged alongside MJ.. Pippen was gifted a fully-grown 3-peat dynasty in 94' and could never grow a team from infancy like 85' MJ or 05' Lebron (1st options) - Pippen did the opposite by destroying a 3-peat dynasty QUICKLY to borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned.l

That's actually nothing like what I said. No one will confuse any of these guys with great scorers let's use common sense and stop jumping over the railing in every post. What I said is with more shots, they'd be able to manufacture more points. I mean it's basic level thought, if Mj couldn't get up enough attempts he couldn't average 30 either. In comparison with the great 80s teams the Bulls are the only one to have a guy shooting that much more than his teammates despite those teams having some great players themselves. Those guys just played a more team centric style.Meanwhile air Jordy was over here calculating how many points a qtr he needed to hit his desired averages.

[3ba11]

Again, Jordan went into the playoffs with the most versatile player, best coach, best 3pt shooter, best rebounder, best bench player.

What Jordan had, was a team that didn't need to score a bunch of points to be effective.





The stats show that the Bulls needed the league's best offense to dominate because they had the #1 offense in the league for 96', 97' and also 91' and 92'... This is due to the GOAT obviously, as we are discussing his weak scoring help.

So the stats confirm you're wrong by saying the Bulls didn't need to score a lot to win - they literally needed a GOAT-level offense, provided by the GOAT.






you're not comparing stats, you're just comparing scoring.





I'm looking at efficiency, which is important because certain skillsets like ball-dominators can't win with bricklayers/lane-cloggers like Pippen, aka low-efficiency Westbrickers

Otoh, expert jumpshooters like MJ can shoot over defense and therefore don't need the wide driving lanes, so they can win with lane-cloggers like Pippen, Hughes, Ingram or Westbrook.






I defy you to show a playoff where Iggy performed like Pippen did in 91.

22ppg, 9 rbds, 6 assts, 3 stls, 1blk on 50%, and lead the playoffs in defensive rating.





Iggy won FMVP because he hit clutch shot after clutch shot via the JUMPSHOT - he was providing "scouting-report-worthy" spacing, aka impact

Otoh, Shaq said that Pippen wasn't on the scouting report, likely because Pippen was an unguarded transition player with low peak capability that couldn't create or shoot in the halfcourt, while also being useless down the stretch of tight games (i.e. literally nothing during last 5 minutes within 5 points, aka less production than Kukoc, Longley, Hornacek, Ostertag, etc, etc.. a complete bum in the clutch and the biggest bricklayer/lane-clogger in playoff history)






basketball goes way past scoring.





Scoring help is the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed, except the GOAT... Only the GOAT won a bunch of chips without great scoring help or a go-to teammate that could achieve elite averages.






He was playing hurt 3ball. He contributed in different ways. He led the playoffs in defesive rating in 96. Along with 9 rebounds and 6 assists and 3 steals. That's hardly bum material.





^^^ It doesn't take a top 30 all-time player to get 9 rebounds, 6 assists and shoot 34%... That's role player stuff that anyone can do.

Pippen simply couldn't provide the biggest thing that everyone in history needed for most of their rings: great scoring help.

No one else could win a title with their sidekick getting 15.7 on 34% in the Finals and shooting worse than anyone ever has in a playoff run of 15+ games and 35 mpg

And individual DRtg is based on team stats and means little - Bird had better DRtg than Pippen.. It's basically a defensive rebound, steal and block counter combined with team defense.






That's why you get people telling you that Jordan was 1-9. HE WASNT WINNING!!!





A player's early years have never counted against a player and never will.. Durant, Lebron, Giannis, Curry and many more were lottery in their first few years.

The reality is that Jordan had to start from scratch in 85' and then again in 87' after the front office removed the 1st and 2nd options from the horrible 86' team (Woolridge, Gervin) heading into the 87' season... His 87' cast was actually much worse than his 85' cast.

Otoh, Lebron avoided the 8 vs 1 matchup by waiting 3 years to make the playoffs as a veteran and favored high seed.. The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a HOF coach and 22/5/5 defender to make the 06' Playoffs, but they were only winning 45-50 games before receiving the all-star spacing that Lebron's stiff-arm needs.. That's hardly an all-time level of carrying.

Ultimately, the stats show that the 06-10' Cavs had better help on both sides of the ball than the 1990 Bulls - this includes top 5 defenses compared to #19 for the Bulls and far more offensive help (Pippen had lower PPG, efficiency, PER and WS than all-stars Mo/Zydrunas or the Hughes/Jamison acquisitions.. Lebron just had far more weapons and also a lot more rebounders and rim protectors.

[97 bulls]

The stats show that the Bulls needed the league's best offense to dominate because they had the #1 offense in the league for 96', 97' and also 91' and 92'... This is due to the GOAT obviously, as we are discussing his weak scoring help.
What happened in 87? 88? 89? 90? The Bulls had Jordan taking a ton of shots and they had offensive rating of 12th, 9th, 12th, and then 5th. It's no coincidence that the Bulls jumped to 5th when Pippen had a bigger offensive role.


So the stats confirm you're wrong by saying the Bulls didn't need to score a lot to win - they literally needed a GOAT-level offense, provided by the GOAT.
The Bulls always had Jordan taking a ton of shots. They were middle of the lack until theyre teammates improved around Jordan.






Iggy won FMVP because he hit clutch shot after clutch shot via the JUMPSHOT - he was providing "scouting-report-worthy" spacing, aka impact

Otoh, Shaq said that Pippen wasn't on the scouting report, likely because Pippen was an unguarded transition player with low peak capability that couldn't create or shoot in the halfcourt, while also being useless down the stretch of tight games (i.e. literally nothing during last 5 minutes within 5 points, aka less production than Kukoc, Longley, Hornacek, Ostertag, etc, etc.. a complete bum in the clutch and the biggest bricklayer/lane-clogger in playoff history)

Pippen has more championships than Shaq, and a higher win percentage. That's all that matters.
Besides, you didn't answer my question, tell me a playoff run that Iggy had on the level of Pippens 91. Or Robert Horry for that matter.









^^^ It doesn't take a top 30 all-time player to get 9 rebounds, 6 assists and shoot 34%... That's role player stuff that anyone can do.

Pippen simply couldn't provide the biggest thing that everyone in history needed for most of their rings: great scoring help.

No one else could win a title with their sidekick getting 15.7 on 34% in the Finals and shooting worse than anyone ever has in a playoff run of 15+ games and 35 mpg

And individual DRtg is based on team stats and means little - Bird had better DRtg than Pippen.. It's basically a defensive rebound, steal and block counter combined with team defense.
Bird had a high defenisve rating because he was hid on defense. Mchale took on the tough matchups. In 91, Pippens matched up against Kiki Vandewheghe, Charles Barkley, Mark Aguirre, and then Jame Worthy.






A player's early years have never counted against a player and never will.. Durant, Lebron, Giannis, Curry and many more were lottery in their first few years.

You're the one saying Jordan didn't need help, so he should've been able to at least make deep playoff runs before Pippen and Co. came into their own. Besides, Magic won early in his career, so did Bird, so did Jabaar, so did Russell.


The reality is that Jordan had to start from scratch in 85' and then again in 87' after the front office removed the 1st and 2nd options from the horrible 86' team (Woolridge, Gervin) heading into the 87' season... His 87' cast was actually much worse than his 85' cast.


Again. It doesn't matter. Youre the one trying to make the argument that Jordan didnt need help to win championships. So you're making my point. Why didn't Jordan win with a Hall of Famer and great scorer in George Gervin?

Be consistent bro. Jordan had more offensive help early in his career and yet you say his teammates weren't good enough to win. You credit Jordan for the Bulls having a bunch of 1st place finishes in team offense, but can't explain why Jordan wasn't able to break the top 10 in team offensive rating before Pippen and Grant hit their stride. In fact, the Bulls had a better offensive rating in 85-86 when Jordan missed all but 18 games (8th place) than they did the previous season when Jordan played in all 82 games (12th).

[Jasper]

I was living in the Chicago area at the time , and have to say 90% of these posts , are purely dumb , but it is understandable.
Half these posters weren't born , or just kids... so they have no idea what they are talking about other than youtube or hear say.

/