Do you think that the Suns finals run in 1993 was a fluke.

[coastalmarker99]

Let’s look at their playoff series.

In the 1st Rd, Phoenix played the 39 win, -1.2 SRS Lakers.

And barely escaped.

Lost their first 2 at home (KJ out gm 1). Won 2 in LA.

In game 5, Phoenix was down 4 with 1:03 to play they won in OT…but just outran a historic choke.


As The Lakers had finished the season 6-15 plus No #8 had beaten a #1 on its home court and it Happened almost 3X here.

PHX also got NBA/Stern help.

In gm 5, Barkley made a shot too late with 2:28 to go It counted and they Also got a 31-21 FTA edge.


Next was the 49 win Spurs.

This was the Tarkanian Spurs, who went 18-1 when Lucas took over.

But…they finished 15-17.

Robinson dropped off in the final weeks.

Beat Portland with Drexler hurt.

Antoine Carr led all scorers in gm 3, got hurt in gm 4, didn’t play games 5 and 6.

The Suns won in 6, but it was close

They won gm 5, after being down 7 in the 4th; won gm 6, down 10 in the 4th.


With Carr out.

The Spurs got 43 more rebounds, but the Suns got forty more FTAs (more help).

The Suns & Spurs scored the same points in the series.


The Conference Final was against Seattle, a 55 win, 6+ SRS team.

Seattle was feuding as Karl had benched McKey and Kemp late in the season.

Seattle was 4th in ORtg.

They scored 107 PPG vs PHX, in a series with a 93 pace. 120, 118, 114, etc.

They shot 50%+ each of the last 4 gms.


The Seattle series went 7.

In gm 7, Barkley had his best game ever. 44/24.

But Game 7 is…suspect. The NBA wanted MJ vs Barkley.

So the Suns got 64 FTAs.

Tied a 40 yr record.

A ‘travesty.”

The Suns outscored Seattle by 1 pt in the series.


So after 3 series, the Suns:

Went the limit (w/OT) vs a 39 win team
Didn’t outscore 49 win Spurs missing a starter
Outscored the Sonics by 1 pt and got a “free pass” in gm 7

They were 11-7, winning on avg 104-103.

Taken to the limit twice.

Got/needed NBA help.


The more I look at that playoff run the more I think it was a fluke.

[AussieSteve]

No way.

They definitely win the championship the next year if Barkley doesn't hurt his back.

They were 26-6 when he went down. And only lost to the rockets in game 7 by a bucket, despite Barkley being severely hobbled. Had he been fit, they win it all for sure

[iamgine]

Well Phoenix had perfect winning record against LA in the regular season so the fluke is actually LA being able to beat them twice in the playoff.

[ArbitraryWater]

No.

[ArbitraryWater]

No way.

They definitely win the championship the next year if Barkley doesn't hurt his back.

They were 26-6 when he went down. And only lost to the rockets in game 7 by a bucket, despite Barkley being severely hobbled. Had he been fit, they win it all for sure


could Chuck have won the 94 MVP if he hadnt gone down? He was averaging 25/12/5 on 53% at that point, not too far off his 93 campaign. The rest of the way with the game he got injured in he did 19/11/4 on 47%.

[Phoenix]

could Chuck have won the 94 MVP if he hadnt gone down? He was averaging 25/12/5 on 53% at that point, not too far off his 93 campaign. The rest of the way with the game he got injured in he did 19/11/4 on 47%.

I still think Hakeem wins it. Barkley would have been in the mix with Admiral, Pippen and Shaq for rankings 2-5.

[Da_Realist]

Looking back the 93 Suns rocky run was not so surprising. Leading up to that year, for both Barkley and the Suns, neither of them were ever expected to get out of the second round. In 93, Barkley coming to the Suns gave them the talent to be champions but not the experience. They went from 2nd round fodder to having the expectation of winning it all in one year. Going from being expected to be one of eight to being the last one standing is a huge jump in expectation and it's hard to prepare for that without going through trials over time as a team. Neither the Suns or Barkley had ever played with a target on their backs. They were able to display their talent in the Regular Season but the Playoffs tests your grit and it took the Suns by surprise. (One good reason why regular season win totals are overrated) The Suns struggled to get their footing in the Playoffs and only let loose once they were down 0-2 to the Bulls because there was no more pressure on them at that point. No one expected them to come back from 0-2 against the two-time defending champs so the Suns played freely without that monkey on their backs the last four games. It was a respectable effort but it was too late.

They also struggled the next couple of years against Houston not being able to close them out. In 94, The Suns won the first two games in Houston to go up 2-0 in the series. Expectations increased. Houston dug in. Phoenix choked away the lead and lost the series. The next year, Phoenix went up 3-1. Expectations increased. Houston dug in. Phoenix choked away another series.

[CurryOverLebron]

So why didn't NBA rig it for Barkley to go to Finals in other years? As for injuries, I don't see you complaining about Hakeem beating an injured Barkley the following season. So you only have a problem with injuries when they help a team you don't like.

[ArbitraryWater]

So why didn't NBA rig it for Barkley to go to Finals in other years? As for injuries, I don't see you complaining about Hakeem beating an injured Barkley the following season. So you only have a problem wit injuries when they help a team you don't like.

He literally says "The NBA wanted MJ vs Barkley."

[L.Kizzle]

No way.

They definitely win the championship the next year if Barkley doesn't hurt his back.

They were 26-6 when he went down. And only lost to the rockets in game 7 by a bucket, despite Barkley being severely hobbled. Had he been fit, they win it all for sure
Now, they was up 3-1 to Houston TWICE. In 94 and 95. Chocked both away.

[SouBeachTalents]

Now, they was up 3-1 to Houston TWICE. In 94 and 95. Chocked both away.
They were up 2-0 in '94, not 3-1.

[L.Kizzle]

They were up 2-0 in '94, not 3-1.
You're right. Still lost tho, both times.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xtzUJeG84Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-23r2TLNA0

[3ba11]

No way.

They definitely win the championship the next year if Barkley doesn't hurt his back.

They were 26-6 when he went down. And only lost to the rockets in game 7 by a bucket, despite Barkley being severely hobbled. Had he been fit, they win it all for sure


The Suns win the 93' Finals easily if KJ was healthy and playing at the same level that he did in 94' and 95' against Hakeem where he averaged 28/5/9 in 2 seven-game series - this includes numerous 40-pt games and the famous poster over Hakeem....... or when KJ upset Magic's 1 seed in 1990 by dominating..

KJ was a dominant playoff performer and a healthy KJ would've forced MJ to average 45-50 to win (Pippen was already at capacity with 46% true shooting, aka couldn't handle more volume)

Basically, that Phoenix team was a massive juggernaut with crazy talent.. A guy like Richard Dumas (Pippen -loke talent) was 5th option

[Phoenix]

The Suns win the 93' Finals easily

A healthy KJ possibly makes it a 7 game series. We saw in the following two seasons as mentioned in this thread, that the Suns had two opportunities to knock off the Rockets and failed to do so. They're not going to 'easily' knock off a battle-tested Bulls squad with the 'championship chemistry' you like to throw around when talking about the 94 Bulls.

[SouBeachTalents]

The Suns win the 93' Finals easily if KJ was healthy and playing at the same level that he did in 94' and 95' against Hakeem where he averaged 28/5/9 in 2 seven-game series - this includes numerous 40-pt games and the famous poster over Hakeem....... or when KJ upset Magic's 1 seed in 1990 by dominating..

KJ was a dominant playoff performer and a healthy KJ would've forced MJ to average 45-50 to win (Pippen was already at capacity with 46% true shooting, aka couldn't handle more volume)

Basically, that Phoenix team was a massive juggernaut with crazy talent.. A guy like Richard Dumas (Pippen -loke talent) was 5th option
Damn, the Suns win easily if KJ's healthy? Major asterisk.

[3ba11]

Damn, the Suns win easily if KJ's healthy? Major asterisk.


When Jordan had the chance to 3-peat, he averaged 41/9/6 to ensure victory, while Lebron averaged 13 points less and lost by a record 13-ppint margin to the Spurs.. You can't make this shit up... Btw, the Suns and Bulls both averaged 106.7 ppg, so every drop of Jordan's production was needed.. So the numbers work out perfectly.

Furthermore, a healthy KJ would simply make MJ average 47 instead of 41 (Jordan averaged 47/10/6 for games 2-4, so he would just do that for the entire series.. He shot 50% at 41 ppg, so he would probably shoot like 45% at 47 ppg).

And the Bulls were banged up too btw, so it's a moot point - any team that is pursuing a 3-peat will be banged up

[SouBeachTalents]

When Jordan had the chance to 3-peat, he averaged 41/9/6 to ensure victory, while Lebron averaged 13 points less and lost by a record 13-ppint margin to the Spurs.. You can't make this shit up... Btw, the Suns and Bulls both averaged 106.7 ppg, so every drop of Jordan's production was needed.. So the numbers work out perfectly.

Furthermore, a healthy KJ would simply make MJ average 47 instead of 41 (Jordan averaged 47/10/6 for games 2-4, so he would just do that for the entire series.. He shot 50% at 41 ppg, so he would probably shoot like 45% at 47 ppg).

And the Bulls were banged up too btw, so it's a moot point - any team that is pursuing a 3-peat will be banged up
But Jordan doesn't 3peat if KJ's healthy, you literally just said so. So that 3peat gets a major asterisk because of it, it is what it is.

[Phoenix]

Furthermore, a healthy KJ would simply make MJ average 47 instead of 41 (Jordan averaged 47/10/6 for games 2-4, so he would just do that for the entire series.. He shot 50% at 41 ppg, so he would probably shoot like 45% at 47 ppg).



So basically... a 'healthy' KJ would add another 10 points to his volume without affecting anyone else's scoring output, rather than the more likely scenario that a healthy KJ takes a few shots from guys like Majerle and Dumas. Or that the Bulls probably use MJ in key moments of the game defensively if 'healthy' KJ started going off.

[L.Kizzle]

KJ avg more points than Chuck in 94 and 95 vs Rockets.

[3ba11]

KJ avg more points than Chuck in 94 and 95 vs Rockets.


Exactly.. the only reason the Suns lost to the Rockets in 7 games twice (94 and 95) is because Barkley got hurt and underperformed both years.. Otherwise the Suns were a crazy juggernaut that required 41 from MJ to win (41 vs max defensive attention, aka carrying scoring load)

[SouBeachTalents]

Exactly.. the only reason the Suns lost to the Rockets in 7 games twice (94 and 95) is because Barkley got hurt and underperformed both years.. Otherwise the Suns were a crazy juggernaut that required 41 from MJ to win (41 vs max defensive attention, aka carrying scoring load)
But he wouldn't have won if KJ were healthy. You said so yourself.

[jlip]

Damn, the Suns win easily if KJ's healthy? Major asterisk.

Wait a minute. In the '91 Finals both Worthy and Scott were injured, and in the '93 Finals KJ was injured causing the Suns to lose. According to 3Ball, the Bulls first three peat was very suspect.

[Phoenix]

Wait a minute. In the '91 Finals both Worthy and Scott were injured, and in the '93 Finals KJ was injured causing the Suns to lose. According to 3Ball, the Bulls first three peat was very suspect.

And Grant was injured in the 96 ECFs.

Own-goals himself every single time. :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Wait a minute. In the '91 Finals both Worthy and Scott were injured, and in the '93 Finals KJ was injured causing the Suns to lose. According to 3Ball, the Bulls first three peat was very suspect.
Wow, I didn't even think about that. Now I have to reassess that entire dynasty, first 3peat is looking awfully suspect now, several asterisks.


And Grant was injured in the 96 ECFs.
Damn, the 72 win season too :( The Magic taxed that ass the year before, with Grant playing a pivotal role, so that definitely gets another asterisk.

[L.Kizzle]

Drexler was injured in 92 as well.

[Xiao Yao You]

Wait a minute. In the '91 Finals both Worthy and Scott were injured, and in the '93 Finals KJ was injured causing the Suns to lose. According to 3Ball, the Bulls first three peat was very suspect.

but at least no bubble

[warriorfan]

Curry was injured in 2016

[3ba11]

Wait a minute. In the '91 Finals both Worthy and Scott were injured, and in the '93 Finals KJ was injured causing the Suns to lose. According to 3Ball, the Bulls first three peat was very suspect.


The only unanimous MVP ever who had arguably the most dominant regular season ever was hurt in the 2016 Finals and destroyed by Kyrie.

The reality is that if the guys are out there and playing like Worthy, Curry or KJ, then the title is considered legit.. but the 16' title has a legit asterisk because dray WASN'T out there in a critical, series-swinging game

Btw, Pippen didn't get any all-defense votes in 1993 because he was hurt all year and banged up in the Finals. (MJ was #2 for DPOY in 93')

[SouBeachTalents]

The only unanimous MVP ever who had arguably the most dominant regular season ever was hurt in the 2016 Finals and destroyed by Kyrie.

The reality is that if the guys are out there and playing like Worthy, Curry or KJ, then the title is considered legit.. but the 16' title has a legit asterisk because dray WASN'T out there in a critical, series-swinging game

Btw, Pippen didn't get any all-defense votes in 1993 because he was hurt all year and banged up in the Finals. (MJ was #2 for DPOY in 93')
Pippen made All-Defensive First Team in '93, as he did every season from 1992-98.

[FKAri]

Drexler was injured in 92 as well.

This brings MJ down to negative 2 rings. Is that the worst ring total in NBA history? Wow!

[Phoenix]

3ball has managed to de-legitimize the entire Bull dynasty in a random thread on a Tuesday afternoon, right before his weekly banning kicks in. :applause:

[SouBeachTalents]

3ball has managed to de-legitimize the entire Bull dynasty in a random thread on a Tuesday afternoon, right before his weekly banning kicks in. :applause:
Undid 50,000 posts and a decade of dedication in less than an hour :applause: No easy feat.

[3ba11]

In addition to the 16' ring being tainted by Curry's injury and Dray suspension, the 2009 Magic had the injury excuse but still won as a massive underdog - all-star Jameer Nelson didn't play in that series..

Mo averaged 18 on 38%, so Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick - he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he needs all-time scoring help like AD, Wade or Kyrie and can't win with the secondary producers that expert jumpshooters win with (Wiggins, Pippen, Terry, Lowry, Pau, Klay)

[ArbitraryWater]

Drexler was injured in 92 as well.

Was he actually? Lol

[jlip]

Was he actually? Lol

Yep. 🤣

https://www.nbcsports.com/northwest/portland-trail-blazers/last-dance-didnt-bother-mention-clyde-drexlers-injury-prior-92-finals

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1992-04-19-9202050117-story.html

[SouBeachTalents]

Yep. ��

https://www.nbcsports.com/northwest/portland-trail-blazers/last-dance-didnt-bother-mention-clyde-drexlers-injury-prior-92-finals

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1992-04-19-9202050117-story.html
An injury to EVERY Finals opponent during the first 3peat :biggums: Triple asterisk.

[NBAGOAT]

That core was still a contender tbf. Better teams than the suns have struggled in the playoffs and needed ref luck. Yea they choked pretty badly in 94/95 but you can also look at it from the perspective of they played the champs as close as anyone those 2 years with a worse version of their 93 team

[jlip]

3ball has managed to de-legitimize the entire Bull dynasty in a random thread on a Tuesday afternoon, right before his weekly banning kicks in. :applause:



Undid 50,000 posts and a decade of dedication in less than an hour :applause: No easy feat.




An injury to EVERY Finals opponent during the first 3peat :biggums: Triple asterisk.


This thread has unexpectedly become very hilarious.

[AussieSteve]

You're right. Still lost tho, both times.

It was because of Barkley's back. Check his numbers in the 94 playoffs. He was going at >30ppg in Rd1 and over the first couple game vs the rockets. And the Suns were rolling. Then his back injury from that year was started to flare up and his level fell off a cliff. This
article after the game 7 loss tells the story...


https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-05-22-sp-60780-story.html

[AussieSteve]

could Chuck have won the 94 MVP if he hadnt gone down? He was averaging 25/12/5 on 53% at that point, not too far off his 93 campaign. The rest of the way with the game he got injured in he did 19/11/4 on 47%.

I think Hakeem would have won MVP still. He was epic that season. Unless the Suns got to a crazy record like 67+ wins or something.

However we should in reality be talking about Barkley as a 2x MVP (1990 he was genuinely the true winner) and, had his back held out for another year, he would have been a FMVP in 1994 as well.

[ArbitraryWater]

I think Hakeem would have won MVP still. He was epic that season. Unless the Suns got to a crazy record like 67+ wins or something.

However we should in reality be talking about Barkley as a 2x MVP (1990 he was genuinely the true winner) and, had his back held out for another year, he would have been a FMVP in 1994 as well.

:bowdown:

[3ba11]

I think Hakeem would have won MVP still. He was epic that season. Unless the Suns got to a crazy record like 67+ wins or something.

However we should in reality be talking about Barkley as a 2x MVP (1990 he was genuinely the true winner) and, had his back held out for another year, he would have been a FMVP in 1994 as well.


Jordan should've been MVP in 1990 and it isn't close:



1990 Jordan....... 31.2 PER.... 11.2 BPM... 10.6 VORP... 0.285 WS/48... 34/7/6
1990 Barkley...... 27.1 PER...... 8.2 BPM'.... 8.0 VORP... 0.269 WS/48... 25/12/4


Barkley's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th options had higher PER, BPM, WS/48, PPG and efficiency than Jordan's 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th options, yet Barkley only won 53 games compared to 55 for Jordan.

In the playoffs, Jordan averaged 43 ppg and destroyed Barkley's 6-year organic team (easily superior than say the 2018 Celtics)

Btw, Lebron never received a 7 ppg rookie where everyone said "Okay that's it!!! Lebron has what he needs!!!"... No one said that for Jordan either and the Bulls had among the worst casts in the league (the worst casts from 88-90' according to Ben Taylor).. So MJ lost to dynasties with horrific casts, while Lebron lost to 1-star teams as the massive favorite twice (09', 11')

[AussieSteve]

Jordan should've been MVP in 1990 and it isn't close:



1990 Jordan....... 31.2 PER.... 11.2 BPM... 10.6 VORP... 0.285 WS/48... 34/7/6
1990 Barkley...... 27.1 PER...... 8.2 BPM'.... 8.0 VORP... 0.269 WS/48... 25/12/4


Barkley's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th options had higher PER, BPM, WS/48, PPG and efficiency than Jordan's 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th options, yet Barkley only won 53 games compared to 55 for Jordan.

In the playoffs, Jordan averaged 43 ppg and destroyed Barkley's 6-year organic team (easily superior than say the 2018 Celtics)

Btw, Lebron never received a 7 ppg rookie where everyone said "Okay that's it!!! Lebron has what he needs!!!"... No one said that for Jordan either and the Bulls had among the worst casts in the league (the worst casts from 88-90' according to Ben Taylor).. So MJ lost to dynasties with horrific casts, while Lebron lost to 1-star teams as the massive favorite twice (09', 11')

We can argue all we want about who was the best player and who should have won MVP.

I'm just saying that Barkley actually did win it. By quite a margin. 38 1st place votes to Magic's 27. As we know, Magic favouring voters who left Barkley off their ballot entirely is why he didn't win it.

[RRR3]

An injury to EVERY Finals opponent during the first 3peat :biggums: Triple asterisk.
LeBron more real rings than MJ confirmed :applause:

[AussieSteve]

Jordan should've been MVP in 1990 and it isn't close:



1990 Jordan....... 31.2 PER.... 11.2 BPM... 10.6 VORP... 0.285 WS/48... 34/7/6
1990 Barkley...... 27.1 PER...... 8.2 BPM'.... 8.0 VORP... 0.269 WS/48... 25/12/4


Barkley's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th options had higher PER, BPM, WS/48, PPG and efficiency than Jordan's 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th options, yet Barkley only won 53 games compared to 55 for Jordan.


Also, comparing these stats is irrelevant. Barkley did more things that made his team mates better, but didn't show up on his stat sheet. It's why essentially every single one of his 76er team mates from 89 to 91 had career scoring years. And why Philly had the #2 offense in the league these years, despite Hersey Hawkins being their 2nd scoring option.

That Barkley had a worse team than Jordan was known then and is still in known now.

[3ba11]

Also, comparing these stats is irrelevant. Barkley did more things that made his team mates better, but didn't show up on his stat sheet. It's why essentially every single one of his 76er team mates from 89 to 91 had career scoring years. And why Philly had the #2 offense in the league these years, despite Hersey Hawkins being their 2nd scoring option.

That Barkley had a worse team than Jordan was known then and is still in known now.


MJ was clearly far superior with a much weaker cast - I provided evidence of this and you responded with nothing.

The Bulls were viewed as having the worst cast in the league from 88-90' - this was common knowledge before Lebron fans that never watched back then chimed in 30 years later.. - even a Lebron nut like Ben Taylor said the 88-90' casts were 0 percentile casts (better than 0% of casts)

[AussieSteve]

MJ was clearly far superior with a much weaker cast - I provided evidence of this and you responded with nothing.

The Bulls were viewed as having the worst cast in the league from 88-90' - this was common knowledge before Lebron fans that never watched back then chimed in 30 years later.. - even a Lebron nut like Ben Taylor said the 88-90' casts were 0 percentile casts (better than 0% of casts)

So why did Barkley get 38 1st place MVP votes to MJ's 21?

MJs individual stats we better and The Bulls got 2 more wins in the same conference. If the Bulls had a worse cast, surely voters would have recognized the two additional Bulls wins as evidence that MJ was the more valuable player. No?

Notice that every single one of Barkley's starting cast had careers high's in scoring next to him in Philly. Every single one. Why? Because he made them better. That's why Barkley's cast scored more with better efficiency than Jordan's team mates. Not because they were better players. Its also why Barkley led offenses were almost always better than Jordan led offenses.

[JBSptfn]

He literally says "The NBA wanted MJ vs Barkley."

That's what Karceno4Life on You Tube was saying.

[RogueBorg]

That's what Karceno4Life on You Tube was saying.

It's not like that's some secret or something. Coming off the Dream Team Charles was a huge star at Barcelona and he led the team with the best record in the West. Barkley vs. Jordan, Phoenix vs. Chicago was the ideal matchup and we all got it.

[Da_Realist]

Yep. 🤣

https://www.nbcsports.com/northwest/portland-trail-blazers/last-dance-didnt-bother-mention-clyde-drexlers-injury-prior-92-finals

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1992-04-19-9202050117-story.html

Drexler literally had his best playoff run ever in 92.