Who are the top 10 players in the nba (no order so no agenda is needed)

[Mask the Embiid]

Jokic
Giannis
Harden
Curry
Durant
Lebron
Embiid
Luka
Lillard
AD
Butler
Tatum
Booker
Cp3
Ja
Zion
Kyrie
Trae
Donovan Mitchell
Ant edwards
Shai
Kawhi
Paul George


I listed everyone I thought could be possibly listed so you don’t have to rack your brains to remember players. Go

[zeerghit]

Jokic
Giannis
Harden
Curry
Durant
Lebron
Embiid
Luka
Lillard
AD
Butler
Tatum
Booker
Cp3
Ja
Zion
Kyrie
Trae
Donovan Mitchell
Ant edwards
Shai
Kawhi
Paul George


I listed everyone I thought could be possibly listed so you don’t have to rack your brains to remember players. Go

no love for Sacramento?

[iamgine]

Curry
Haliburton
Durant
Shai
Joker
Embiid
Doncic
Giannis
Butler
Dame

[ImKobe]

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic
KD
AD
Curry
Doncic
Butler
SGA
Dame

[Real Men Wear Green]

Jaylen Brown is having a better season than Lebron James. Carry on.

[Xiao Yao You]

Clevleand is worse with Mitchell on the floor than with him off like Utah was :facepalm

[Real Men Wear Green]

Clevleand is worse with Mitchell on the floor than with him off like Utah was :facepalm

No one cares about Gobert but you and his mother. Carry on.

[Xiao Yao You]

No one cares about Gobert but you and his mother. Carry on.

well at least get the right players on your list. Cavs have more impactful players

[aj1987]

Jaylen Brown is having a better season than Lebron James. Carry on.

Wait. What? Not sure if you're trolling or being serious.

[RRR3]

No one cares about Gobert but you and his mother. Carry on.
:roll:

[Xiao Yao You]

Wait. What? Not sure if you're trolling or being serious.

actually being on the court should matter

[Real Men Wear Green]

well at least get the right players on your list. Cavs have more impactful players

It's not my list.

[Mask the Embiid]

You don’t have to use the ppl I listed. It’s just names to make listing easier

[Real Men Wear Green]

Wait. What? Not sure if you're trolling or being serious.

By the end of the season Brown will most likely have played in over 20 more games and is a much better defender.

[RRR3]

By the end of the season Brown will most likely have played in over 20 more games and is a much better defender.
Neither EPM or RAPTOR support Brown being a much better defender.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Neither EPM or RAPTOR support Brown being a much better defender.

I'm an eye test guy. I don't know what math formula goes into things like EPM and RAPTOR. Most of the people that talk about them don't know what they're based on either. I took one look at the math behind PER and I was done with advanced statistics.

[1987_Lakers]

Jaylen Brown is having a better season than Lebron James. Carry on.

:facepalm

[Manny98]

Giannis
Jokic
Embiid
LeBron
KD
Luka
Kawhi
AD
Butler
Curry

[RRR3]

I'm an eye test guy. I don't know what math formula goes into things like EPM and RAPTOR. Most of the people that talk about them don't know what they're based on either. I took one look at the math behind PER and I was done with advanced statistics.
EPM is based lineup data not box score stats like PER. It matches my eye test for the most part too. www.dunksandthrees.com/epm see for yourself for the most part it’s incredibly accurate with only a few outliers.

[Manny98]

Jaylen Brown is having a better season than Lebron James. Carry on.

:roll:

[Xiao Yao You]

Suns better without Paul on the floor as well. Might be time to stop including him on these lists. Had a nice run

[Xiao Yao You]

Giannis
Jokic
Embiid
LeBron
KD
Luka
Kawhi
AD
Butler
Curry

where's Mitchell?

[Real Men Wear Green]

EPM is based lineup data not box score stats like PER. It matches my eye test for the most part too. www.dunksandthrees.com/epm see for yourself for the most part it’s incredibly accurate with only a few outliers.

That's nice but I still have no idea how they come up with the number.

[Xiao Yao You]

That's nice but I still have no idea how they come up with the number.

neither does he

[Manny98]

where's Mitchell?
Top 15

[Xiao Yao You]

Top 15

top 15 on the Cavs anyway. :roll:

[Manny98]

Suns better without Paul on the floor as well. Might be time to stop including him on these lists. Had a nice run
You're an idiot you're using a stat that you don't have a half clue what it actually means :facepalm

[aj1987]

By the end of the season Brown silk most likely have played in over 20 more games and is a much better defender.

He might be a better defender, but he's a significantly worse offensive player and the difference in defense doesn't make up for it. LeBron has him beat at literally almost everything. Basic and advanced stats.

LeBron - 29.5 PPG 8.1 RPG 6.9 APG 1.3 SPG 1.1 BPG on 58.3% TS%

Jaylen - 26.7 PPG 6.9 RPG 3.4 APG 1.1 SPG 0.4 BPG on 58.6% TS%

Basic stats, the only thing Brown has on LeBron is a 0.3% advantage in efficiency.

Advanced Stats

LeBron - 3.0 OWS 2.1 DWS 5.0 WS .143 WS/48 5.6 OBPM 0.7 DBPM 6.3 BPM 3.5 VORP +7.5 On/Off 111 ORtg 112 DRtg

Jaylen - 1.9 OWS 3.1 DWS 4.9 WS .106 WS/48 1.8 OBPM -0.2 DBPM 1.6 BPM 2.0 VORP -3.0 On/Off 115 ORtg 113 DRtg

Again, the only thing that Brown has over LeBron is DWS.

As for RPM, LeBron is 4th in the league at 7.68. Brown is 44th with 3.97.

LeBron - 4.75 ORPM 2.94 DRPM 7.68 RPM with 13.89 wins

Brown - 2.11 ORPM 1.86 DRPM 3.97 RPM with 11.86 wins

Looking at NBA's tracking stats, Jaylen Brown has been defending 12.6 shots a game and players are scoring at 47.3%, compared to 47.7% on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 0.4%.

LeBron has been defending 11.9 shots a game and players shoot 46.8% on those shots, compared to 48.7 on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 1.9%. Lets also not forget that Brown plays with significantly better defensive help.

Jaylen Brown is not a better player than LeBron. In the 50 or so games LeBron played this season, he's quite easily been a top 10 player. Jaylen Brown? Nope. Stop it.


actually being on the court should matter

Bojan and Donovan played more games than Gobert last season. I'm assuming you have them ahead of him? How about in 2018 when Donovan played 81 games and Gobert played 56?

[ShawkFactory]

where's Mitchell?

He’s probably in that 11-15 group. Or perhaps just outside of that.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You are completely ignoring the large number of games James had missed. The Lakers are basically trying to make the playoffs without him. I guarantee you don't know any of the math behind the advanced stats that you're quoting and if LA had JB instead of James they would be in 6th place or better.

[RRR3]

You are completely ignoring the large number of games James had missed. The Lakers are basically trying to make the playoffs without him. I guarantee you don't know any of the math behind the advanced stats that you're quoting and if LA had JB instead of James they would be in 6th place or better.
Brown isn’t a first option so I doubt it. Tatum is quite a bit better and the Celtics have the best role players in the league.

[Xiao Yao You]

He might be a better defender, but he's a significantly worse offensive player and the difference in defense doesn't make up for it. LeBron has him beat at literally almost everything. Basic and advanced stats.

LeBron - 29.5 PPG 8.1 RPG 6.9 APG 1.3 SPG 1.1 BPG on 58.3% TS%

Jaylen - 26.7 PPG 6.9 RPG 3.4 APG 1.1 SPG 0.4 BPG on 58.6% TS%

Basic stats, the only thing Brown has on LeBron is a 0.3% advantage in efficiency.

Advanced Stats

LeBron - 3.0 OWS 2.1 DWS 5.0 WS .143 WS/48 5.6 OBPM 0.7 DBPM 6.3 BPM 3.5 VORP +7.5 On/Off 111 ORtg 112 DRtg

Jaylen - 1.9 OWS 3.1 DWS 4.9 WS .106 WS/48 1.8 OBPM -0.2 DBPM 1.6 BPM 2.0 VORP -3.0 On/Off 115 ORtg 113 DRtg

Again, the only thing that Brown has over LeBron is DWS.

As for RPM, LeBron is 4th in the league at 7.68. Brown is 44th with 3.97.

LeBron - 4.75 ORPM 2.94 DRPM 7.68 RPM with 13.89 wins

Brown - 2.11 ORPM 1.86 DRPM 3.97 RPM with 11.86 wins

Looking at NBA's tracking stats, Jaylen Brown has been defending 12.6 shots a game and players are scoring at 47.3%, compared to 47.7% on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 0.4%.

LeBron has been defending 11.9 shots a game and players shoot 46.8% on those shots, compared to 48.7 on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 1.9%. Lets also not forget that Brown plays with significantly better defensive help.

Jaylen Brown is not a better player than LeBron. In the 50 or so games LeBron played this season, he's quite easily been a top 10 player. Jaylen Brown? Nope. Stop it.



Bojan and Donovan played more games than Gobert last season. I'm assuming you have them ahead of him? How about in 2018 when Donovan played 81 games and Gobert played 56?

Gobert played 62 games which Lebron hasn't approached in 3 seasons and very unlikely that he ever will again. Davis hasn't hit that number in the same amount of years. Mitchell and Bojan aren't in the conversation. When your team is worse with you on the court than off you aren't even worth discussing. Lebron is still a positive when he plays at least. His team has sucked. Not sure how he's in the conversation. Legacy?

[Xiao Yao You]

You're an idiot you're using a stat that you don't have a half clue what it actually means :facepalm

the latest stat that you loved until it didn't support your trolling. Naz -6.6 :roll:

[Manny98]

the latest stat that you loved until it didn't support your trolling. Naz -6.6 :roll:

Literally never used that stat because I know it should be taken with a grain of salt, why lie :facepalm

[Xiao Yao You]

Literally never used that stat because I know it should be taken with a grain of salt, why lie :facepalm

but +/- is better! :lol

[Real Men Wear Green]

Brown isn’t a first option so I doubt it. Tatum is quite a bit better and the Celtics have the best role players in the league.

One of things that makes the Celtics great is they have two guys that can play the go to role. JB is averaging 27 on 49%. The games he's played with it Tatum he's still doing good numbers. He wouldn't make the Lakers a contender but they would be above .500. James is going to miss something like 25 games by the end of the season. That hurts.

[ImKobe]

He might be a better defender, but he's a significantly worse offensive player and the difference in defense doesn't make up for it. LeBron has him beat at literally almost everything. Basic and advanced stats.

LeBron - 29.5 PPG 8.1 RPG 6.9 APG 1.3 SPG 1.1 BPG on 58.3% TS%

Jaylen - 26.7 PPG 6.9 RPG 3.4 APG 1.1 SPG 0.4 BPG on 58.6% TS%

Basic stats, the only thing Brown has on LeBron is a 0.3% advantage in efficiency.

Advanced Stats

LeBron - 3.0 OWS 2.1 DWS 5.0 WS .143 WS/48 5.6 OBPM 0.7 DBPM 6.3 BPM 3.5 VORP +7.5 On/Off 111 ORtg 112 DRtg

Jaylen - 1.9 OWS 3.1 DWS 4.9 WS .106 WS/48 1.8 OBPM -0.2 DBPM 1.6 BPM 2.0 VORP -3.0 On/Off 115 ORtg 113 DRtg

Again, the only thing that Brown has over LeBron is DWS.

As for RPM, LeBron is 4th in the league at 7.68. Brown is 44th with 3.97.

LeBron - 4.75 ORPM 2.94 DRPM 7.68 RPM with 13.89 wins

Brown - 2.11 ORPM 1.86 DRPM 3.97 RPM with 11.86 wins

Looking at NBA's tracking stats, Jaylen Brown has been defending 12.6 shots a game and players are scoring at 47.3%, compared to 47.7% on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 0.4%.

LeBron has been defending 11.9 shots a game and players shoot 46.8% on those shots, compared to 48.7 on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 1.9%. Lets also not forget that Brown plays with significantly better defensive help.

Jaylen Brown is not a better player than LeBron. In the 50 or so games LeBron played this season, he's quite easily been a top 10 player. Jaylen Brown? Nope. Stop it.



Bojan and Donavan played more games than Gobert last season. I'm assuming you have them ahead of him?

I wouldn't say quite easily. He had a great stretch after his Bday but he's also become a terrible volume 3PT shooter who doesn't get to the line on a consistent basis. The FG% on D doesn't tell us much without context (how many 3s defended, defensive assignments etc), Lebron has AD who's been covering up for the Lakers' poor perimeter defense all season and the Lakers have a top 10 defense right now so there isn't that big of a gap. Bran has been saving his legs for offense for years now and constantly leaves guys open from 3 as he's slow to close out on shooters (doesn't even try at times with his man shooting wide open corner 3s) but his rebounding numbers make his D look better than it really is, kind of like what you're used to seeing from WB with him leaving his man early to get the board.

It's not that insane to take Jaylen Brown over Bran this season tbh, you'd rather vote Jaylen for All-NBA over Bran considering team success & games played. Jaylen's also gotten better as the season's progressed with 28/6/4 averages on ~60%TS in March as he's helped keep Boston afloat so I could definitely see an argument for him. Bran's raw numbers are better no doubt but I'd rather have Jaylen at this point.

[aj1987]

You are completely ignoring the large number of games James had missed. The Lakers are basically trying to make the playoffs without him. I guarantee you don't know any of the math behind the advanced stats that you're quoting and if LA had JB instead of James they would be in 6th place or better.

You are completely ignoring the large number of metrics available which show that LeBron is a much better player than Brown. I guarantee that you do not really know what you're talking about and you're just resorting to generic troll responses. As for me understanding the metrics, I understand them better than you understand basketball. At least judging by your previous few replies.

As for the bolded... :roll: :roll:

Did your account get hacked or something? You were never this moronic.

The Celtics are 9-3 without Brown. That's a 62 win pace. 42-20 with him, which is a 55 win pace.

[Xiao Yao You]

I'd take Brown. He will be on the floor playing both ends of it. Guys like Lebron and Davis can't be counted on

[1987_Lakers]

The Celtics are 9-3 without Brown. That's a 62 win pace. 42-20 with him, which is a 55 win pace.

Not to mention there was a long stretch when AD was injured where LeBron by himself was keeping the Lakers season alive, Brown in that situation would have faltered, simply not at that level.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You are completely ignoring the large number of metrics available which show that LeBron is a much better player than Brown. I guarantee that you do not really know what you're talking about and you're just resorting to generic troll responses. As for me understanding the metrics, I understand them better than you understand basketball. At least judging by your previous few replies.

As for the bolded... :roll: :roll:

Did your account get hacked or something? You were never this moronic.

The Celtics are 9-3 without Brown. That's a 62 win pace. 42-20 with him, which is a 55 win pace.
Yeah you don't know the advanced stats you try to discusses at all. Which is why you just cite them but don't talk about what they mean. Celtics have a good record with and without Brown because they have developed a good team. Instead of just attacking me try making a point.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Not to mention there was a long stretch when AD was injured where LeBron by himself was keeping the Lakers season alive, Brown in that situation would have faltered, simply not at that level.

When James got injured LA was 12th and had a losing record. Now having played several games without him they are 8th and .500. Does this mean that they're better without him?

[RRR3]

When James got injured LA was 12th and had a losing record. Now having played several games without him they are 8th and .500. Does this mean that they're better without him?
They are 24-23 when he plays and most of that was with a much worse roster. This is awful trolling.

[1987_Lakers]

When James got injured LA was 12th and had a losing record. Now having played several games without him they are 8th and .500. Does this mean that they're better without him?


They have a winning record when he plays, they were 3-0 when he played after the Westbrook trade. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

[Real Men Wear Green]

They are 24-23 when he plays and most of that was with a much worse roster. This is awful trolling.

So the difference in the roster matter s for the past record without James but not the present? Because since they got D'Angelo Russell that kind of logic applies to James. You say it's stupid telling when I post it but I am just applying the same kind of thinking your James stans did to Brown record with Celtics. It isn't stupid when they do it?

[Real Men Wear Green]

They have a winning record when he plays, they were 3-0 when he played after the Westbrook trade. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
A whole 3 games. As big of a stat geek as you appear to be you should surely understand statistical relevance.

[RRR3]

So the difference in the roster matter s for the past record without James but not the present? Because since they got D'Angelo Russell that kind of logic applies to James. You say it's stupid telling when I post it but I am just applying the same kind of thinking your James stans did to Brown record with Celtics. It isn't stupid when they do it?
The Celtics have had the same roster all year what are you talking about?

[ImKobe]

They have a winning record when he plays, they were 3-0 when he played after the Westbrook trade. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Why does every Bran stan here use the 3 - 0 record when Bran played well below his average in those games ffs.. 20 ppg on 38.6% shooting with 17.6% from 3 but y'all act like he was the #1 reason they won those games.

[aj1987]

I wouldn't say quite easily. He had a great stretch after his Bday but he's also become a terrible volume 3PT shooter who doesn't get to the line on a consistent basis.
LMAO. Replace LeBron with Kobe with the same exact stats and advanced metrics, you'd been jacking off and spamming this about about how Kobe should make the All-NBA first team. LeBron could be the worst 3pt shooter in the league, but he's still almost exactly as efficient as Brown. Better than every single Kobe season, not to mention.



The FG% on D doesn't tell us much without context (how many 3s defended, defensive assignments etc), Lebron has AD who's been covering up for the Lakers' poor perimeter defense all season and the Lakers have a top 10 defense right now so there isn't that big of a gap.
The Celtics are 4th defensively. There's a significant gap between the 4th and 10th best defensive teams. To dumb it down, it's 6 spots. Also, as I said earlier, Brown has significantly better defensive help, while AD played 28 games with LeBron, of his 48 total games played. All this while having one of the worst defenders in the league in WB.

Overall shots defended is 12.6 for Brown and 11.9 for LeBron. Again, that's an insignificant difference. Read again:

Looking at NBA's tracking stats, Jaylen Brown has been defending 12.6 shots a game and players are scoring at 47.3%, compared to 47.7% on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 0.4%.

LeBron has been defending 11.9 shots a game and players shoot 46.8% on those shots, compared to 48.7 on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 1.9%. Lets also not forget that Brown plays with significantly better defensive help.




Bran has been saving his legs for offense for years now and constantly leaves guys open from 3 as he's slow to close out on shooters (doesn't even try at times with his man shooting wide open corner 3s) but his rebounding numbers make his D look better than it really is, kind of like what you're used to seeing from WB with him leaving his man early to get the board.
You do know that NBA has stat tracking, right? Brown has contested 2 3's a game this season and LeBron has defended 1.6 3's a game. Yet again, an insignificant difference. I don't know why you're bringing up rebounding numbers while talking about defense. That's completely irrelevant. You can keep harping about LeBron leaving his man open, but his help defense has been beyond trash this season as well. Brown might end up actually having 2 All-Def players on his team. Lakers have ZERO.


It's not that insane to take Jaylen Brown over Bran this season tbh, you'd rather vote Jaylen for All-NBA over Bran considering team success & games played. Jaylen's also gotten better as the season's progressed with 28/6/4 averages on ~60%TS in March as he's helped keep Boston afloat so I could definitely see an argument for him. Bran's raw numbers are better no doubt but I'd rather have Jaylen at this point.
Team success for All-NBA? Does that factor into All-Def as well? If team success is a factor, your boy should be down a couple of All-NBA and All-Def selections.

Raw numbers? Almost EVERY SINGLE stat and metric is in LeBron's favor. Posting it again, as you seem to have a hard time reading:


LeBron - 29.5 PPG 8.1 RPG 6.9 APG 1.3 SPG 1.1 BPG on 58.3% TS%

Jaylen - 26.7 PPG 6.9 RPG 3.4 APG 1.1 SPG 0.4 BPG on 58.6% TS%

Basic stats, the only thing Brown has on LeBron is a 0.3% advantage in efficiency.

Advanced Stats

LeBron - 3.0 OWS 2.1 DWS 5.0 WS .143 WS/48 5.6 OBPM 0.7 DBPM 6.3 BPM 3.5 VORP +7.5 On/Off 111 ORtg 112 DRtg

Jaylen - 1.9 OWS 3.1 DWS 4.9 WS .106 WS/48 1.8 OBPM -0.2 DBPM 1.6 BPM 2.0 VORP -3.0 On/Off 115 ORtg 113 DRtg

Again, the only thing that Brown has over LeBron is DWS.

As for RPM, LeBron is 4th in the league at 7.68. Brown is 44th with 3.97.

LeBron - 4.75 ORPM 2.94 DRPM 7.68 RPM with 13.89 wins

Brown - 2.11 ORPM 1.86 DRPM 3.97 RPM with 11.86 wins

Looking at NBA's tracking stats, Jaylen Brown has been defending 12.6 shots a game and players are scoring at 47.3%, compared to 47.7% on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 0.4%.

LeBron has been defending 11.9 shots a game and players shoot 46.8% on those shots, compared to 48.7 on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 1.9%. Lets also not forget that Brown plays with significantly better defensive help



Gobert played 62 games which Lebron hasn't approached in 3 seasons and very unlikely that he ever will again. Davis hasn't hit that number in the same amount of years. Mitchell and Bojan aren't in the conversation. When your team is worse with you on the court than off you aren't even worth discussing. Lebron is still a positive when he plays at least. His team has sucked. Not sure how he's in the conversation. Legacy?
LMAO. Keep moving the goalposts. In 2018, Donovan had a +/- of +6.5 and Gobert was at + 7.9. According to your "logic", since Donovan played more games, he was better than Gobert, right?


Yeah you don't know the advanced stats you try to discusses at all. Which is why you just cite them but don't talk about what they mean. Celtics have a good record with and without Brown because they have developed a good team. Instead of just attacking me try making a point.

What point did you make in this thread other than "you don't know what you're talking about" and "Brown is better than James". Pot, meet kettle.

You haven't refuted a single thing I said. You can't accept the fact that the Celtics have a better record WITHOUT Brown than WITH him. You can't accept the fact that Brown is a net negative.

I backed up every single point with FACTS.

Stop posting. You're just embarrassing yourself.

[1987_Lakers]

Why does every Bran stan here use the 3 - 0 record when Bran played well below his average in those games ffs.. 20 ppg on 38.6% shooting with 17.6% from 3 but y'all act like he was the #1 reason they won those games.

Typical box score watcher. He had 1 bad game in that stretch which messed with his numbers. In the game vs the Mavs he took over in the 4th on a bad foot and we got the W.

[RRR3]

Typical box score watcher. He had 1 bad game in that stretch which messed with his numbers. In the game vs the Mavs he took over in the 4th on a bad foot and we got the W.
Also great players generally have a positive impact even when they shoot poorly. This should be common knowledge.

[aj1987]

Also great players generally have a positive impact even when they shoot poorly. This should be common knowledge.

Even more so considering he's a Kobe stan. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Jaylen Brown is having a better season than Lebron James. Carry on.


:roll::roll:

[1987_Lakers]

A whole 3 games. As big of a stat geek as you appear to be you should surely understand statistical relevance.

One thing I do understand is you yourself said you were a casual fan in another thread. AJ1987 has backed up his points with facts and you have brought nothing worth discussing.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The Celtics have had the same roster all year what are you talking about?

The lake roster. What are you talking about?

Note if we were to get into the Celtics roster there have been a number of games missed by important players. Robert Williams may have missed athird to half the season to date. Celtics have just kept going anyway because they have a better roster and the stars are more reliable.

[Mask the Embiid]

Jokic
Giannis
Curry
Durant
Lebron
Embiid
Butler
Zion
Shai
Kawhi

^nowhere close to the order


I just can’t put a “head of the snake player” on my list. I’m not 100% convinced its them “backpacking” teams or if the team is just good already and they put them over the top.

So I can’t put a ja or Tatum over a shai. When I know he’s the reason for the thunder having any success. If I dropped Tatum on the hornets or ja on the rockets idk if they get much better.


I have luka and harden at 11/12

ADcan’t carry…..so he’s not on my list

[ArbitraryWater]

Jokic
Giannis
Curry
Durant
Lebron
Embiid
Butler
Zion
Shai
Kawhi

^nowhere close to the order


I just can’t put “head of the snake player” on my list. I’m not 100% convinced is them “backpacking” teams or if the team is just good already and they put them over the top.

So I can’t put a ja or Tatum over a shai. When I know he’s the reason for the thunder having any success. If I dropped Tatum on the hornets or ja on the rockets idk if they get much better.


I have luka and harden at 11/12


buddy stop the cap

[Real Men Wear Green]

LMAO. Replace LeBron with Kobe with the same exact stats and advanced metrics, you'd been jacking off and spamming this about about how Kobe should make the All-NBA first team. LeBron could be the worst 3pt shooter in the league, but he's still almost exactly as efficient as Brown. Better than every single Kobe season, not to mention.



The Celtics are 4th defensively. There's a significant gap between the 4th and 10th best defensive teams. To dumb it down, it's 6 spots. Also, as I said earlier, Brown has significantly better defensive help, while AD played 28 games with LeBron, of his 48 total games played. All this while having one of the worst defenders in the league in WB.

Overall shots defended is 12.6 for Brown and 11.9 for LeBron. Again, that's an insignificant difference. Read again:

Looking at NBA's tracking stats, Jaylen Brown has been defending 12.6 shots a game and players are scoring at 47.3%, compared to 47.7% on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 0.4%.

LeBron has been defending 11.9 shots a game and players shoot 46.8% on those shots, compared to 48.7 on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 1.9%. Lets also not forget that Brown plays with significantly better defensive help.




You do know that NBA has stat tracking, right? Brown has contested 2 3's a game this season and LeBron has defended 1.6 3's a game. Yet again, an insignificant difference. I don't know why you're bringing up rebounding numbers while talking about defense. That's completely irrelevant. You can keep harping about LeBron leaving his man open, but his help defense has been beyond trash this season as well. Brown might end up actually having 2 All-Def players on his team. Lakers have ZERO.


Team success for All-NBA? Does that factor into All-Def as well? If team success is a factor, your boy should be down a couple of All-NBA and All-Def selections.

Raw numbers? Almost EVERY SINGLE stat and metric is in LeBron's favor. Posting it again, as you seem to have a hard time reading:


LeBron - 29.5 PPG 8.1 RPG 6.9 APG 1.3 SPG 1.1 BPG on 58.3% TS%

Jaylen - 26.7 PPG 6.9 RPG 3.4 APG 1.1 SPG 0.4 BPG on 58.6% TS%

Basic stats, the only thing Brown has on LeBron is a 0.3% advantage in efficiency.

Advanced Stats

LeBron - 3.0 OWS 2.1 DWS 5.0 WS .143 WS/48 5.6 OBPM 0.7 DBPM 6.3 BPM 3.5 VORP +7.5 On/Off 111 ORtg 112 DRtg

Jaylen - 1.9 OWS 3.1 DWS 4.9 WS .106 WS/48 1.8 OBPM -0.2 DBPM 1.6 BPM 2.0 VORP -3.0 On/Off 115 ORtg 113 DRtg

Again, the only thing that Brown has over LeBron is DWS.

As for RPM, LeBron is 4th in the league at 7.68. Brown is 44th with 3.97.

LeBron - 4.75 ORPM 2.94 DRPM 7.68 RPM with 13.89 wins

Brown - 2.11 ORPM 1.86 DRPM 3.97 RPM with 11.86 wins

Looking at NBA's tracking stats, Jaylen Brown has been defending 12.6 shots a game and players are scoring at 47.3%, compared to 47.7% on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 0.4%.

LeBron has been defending 11.9 shots a game and players shoot 46.8% on those shots, compared to 48.7 on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 1.9%. Lets also not forget that Brown plays with significantly better defensive help



LMAO. Keep moving the goalposts. In 2018, Donovan had a +/- of +6.5 and Gobert was at + 7.9. According to your "logic", since Donovan played more games, he was better than Gobert, right?



What point did you make in this thread other than "you don't know what you're talking about" and "Brown is better than James". Pot, meet kettle.

You haven't refuted a single thing I said. You can't accept the fact that the Celtics have a better record WITHOUT Brown than WITH him. You can't accept the fact that Brown is a net negative.

I backed up every single point with FACTS.

Stop posting. You're just embarrassing yourself.
You just wrote that Brown is a net negative. A 27ppg 49 % shooting allstar lm that plays good defense is somehow a bet negative. You are a dumb ass. Try analyzing the game beyond whatever advanced stat nerd bs is miseducating you so severely.

[Manny98]

I hate when people post a bunch of stats without having a clue in what they actually mean :facepalm

[Real Men Wear Green]

One thing I do understand is you yourself said you were a casual fan in another thread. AJ1987 has backed up his points with facts and you have brought nothing worth discussing.

AJ says that Jaylen Brown is a net negative. AJ is an idiot. Are you just a stupid?

[Xiao Yao You]

LMAO. Keep moving the goalposts. In 2018, Donovan had a +/- of +6.5 and Gobert was at + 7.9. According to your "logic", since Donovan played more games, he was better than Gobert, right?

the past two seasons when they staggered Conley and Gobert Mitchell was a negative. He was only a positive that year because he was on the court more with Gobert and they had more guys to cover for him defensively since they were a much better defensive team and Mitchell was actually a better defender then too. He's gotten worse every year at that end despite talk of actually putting in the effort at that end over and over. No Mitchell was never better because he was an inefficient gunner who only played one end of the court. They were closer to the top pick in the draft than the playoffs that year when Gobert came back from injury and got them the 5th seed and into the 2nd round. Crappy without Gobert. One of the top teams with him. Proven over and over again

[aj1987]

You just wrote that Brown is a net negative. A 27ppg 49 % shooting allstar lm that plays good defense is somehow a bet negative. You are a dumb ass. Try analyzing the game beyond whatever advanced stat nerd bs is miseducating you so severely.

You're the mouth breathing casual retard, who thinks Brown is better than LeBron. There's a reason why almost everyone in this thread is laughing at you. Stop getting your panties in a bunch and try to understand ball before you post.

Also, funny how you fixated on just the +/- and ignored the rest of the stars, including BPM, RPM, etc. which have him as a positive. Even RRR3's link has him as a positive but a worse player than LeBron, which is the point I've been trying to make.

Try to keep up.

EDIT: You are still yet to make a coherent point. Try posting something insightful other than spamming like a troll.

[1987_Lakers]

AJ says that Jaylen Brown is a net negative. AJ is an idiot. Are you just a stupid?

I don't agree with that, but that was only like 1% of what he said.

[Xiao Yao You]

I hate when people post a bunch of stats without having a clue in what they actually mean :facepalm

even worse when they only use stats for trolling and than abandoned the same beloved stats when they don't work for that purpose and they find another to troll with

[Real Men Wear Green]

You're the mouth breathing casual retard, who thinks Brown is better than LeBron. There's a reason why almost everyone in this thread is laughing at you. Stop getting your panties in a bunch and try to understand ball before you post.

Also, funny how you fixated on just the +/- and ignored the rest of the stars, including BPM, RPM, etc. which have him as a positive. Even RRR3's link has him as a positive but a worse player than LeBron, which is the point I've been trying to make.

Try to keep up.

James stans don't agree with me. So? I don't value your opinions. You're fellow James stan 1987 Lakers just admitted that tmyiu calling Brown a net negative was wrong. BPM, RPM, etc... post the formula. Do you know where these numbers come from, how they are made? Or do you just parrot something you don't understand?

[aj1987]

James stans don't agree with me. So? I don't value your opinions. You're fellow James stan 1987 Lakers just admitted that tmyiu calling Brown a net negative was wrong. BPM, RPM, etc... post the formula. Do you know where these numbers come from, how they are made? Or do you just parrot something you don't understand?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html

On/Off shouldn't been too hard to figure out, even for you.

https://dunksandthrees.com/blog/metric-comparison

There's a detailed write up about EPM in that link.

NBA tracking is just that when it comes to shots being defended and the defensive percentage.

More about EPM:

"Estimated plus-minus (EPM) is an all-in-one player metric that is both retrodictive and predictive. It's retrodictive in that a weighted sum will approximate team ratings, and EPM values weighted by playing time in the following season correlates nicely with win %. It also lends information about future wins when you have an idea of how much a player will play.

EPM is a one-season Regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus (RAPM) calculation with a Bayesian prior. The prior is an estimation of long-term RAPM using stats and some player-tracking-derived metrics. Both the RAPM calculations and modeling are performed by dunksandthrees.com.

Raw plus-minus and player "Net Ratings" are very noisy and, in the opinion of dunksandthrees.com, can oftentimes be misleading even in large samples. The advantage of RAPM based metrics is that there is a lot done to control for factors that cause much of the noise in raw plus-minus, such as who a player is playing with and against.

Estimated Plus-Minus is called such because any all-in-one metric is simply trying to estimate a player's true value which is unknown. Although RAPM-based metrics are much better than raw plus-minus/net rating, it is still only an estimate, and a thorough analysis of a player should accompany the use of EPM, such as with other stats and video. The role and context of a player should be considered as well. A more detailed explanation of EPM may come later.

It should be noted that a different prior for defense is used before the player-tracking era (pre 2014 season). Also, EPM at the game level (i.e. for the 5-game moving average trend) only uses a prior (no short-term RAPM calculation)."

Google isn't that hard.

[Manny98]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html

On/Off shouldn't been too hard to figure out, even for you.

https://dunksandthrees.com/blog/metric-comparison

There's a detailed write up about EPM in that link.

NBA tracking is just that when it comes to shots being defended and the defensive percentage.

More about EPM:

"Estimated plus-minus (EPM) is an all-in-one player metric that is both retrodictive and predictive. It's retrodictive in that a weighted sum will approximate team ratings, and EPM values weighted by playing time in the following season correlates nicely with win %. It also lends information about future wins when you have an idea of how much a player will play.

EPM is a one-season Regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus (RAPM) calculation with a Bayesian prior. The prior is an estimation of long-term RAPM using stats and some player-tracking-derived metrics. Both the RAPM calculations and modeling are performed by dunksandthrees.com.

Raw plus-minus and player "Net Ratings" are very noisy and, in the opinion of dunksandthrees.com, can oftentimes be misleading even in large samples. The advantage of RAPM based metrics is that there is a lot done to control for factors that cause much of the noise in raw plus-minus, such as who a player is playing with and against.

Estimated Plus-Minus is called such because any all-in-one metric is simply trying to estimate a player's true value which is unknown. Although RAPM-based metrics are much better than raw plus-minus/net rating, it is still only an estimate, and a thorough analysis of a player should accompany the use of EPM, such as with other stats and video. The role and context of a player should be considered as well. A more detailed explanation of EPM may come later.

It should be noted that a different prior for defense is used before the player-tracking era (pre 2014 season). Also, EPM at the game level (i.e. for the 5-game moving average trend) only uses a prior (no short-term RAPM calculation)."

Google isn't that hard.

You literally just proved his point, you just copy and pasted a bunch of shit you found off Google without understanding what it actually means :facepalm

[aj1987]

You literally just proved his point, you just copy and pasted a bunch of shit you found off Google without understanding what it actually means :facepalm

Click the links, idiot. It's not that hard. How these stats are calculated and what goes into it is all there. Might be a bit difficult for you to understand all that math and numbers, but try.

Good lord, you people are dumb.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You didn't post the formula you posted links. Because you don't understand these formulas. Let's take win shares:


Offensive Win Shares are credited to players based on Dean Oliver's points produced and offensive possessions. The formulas are quite detailed, so I would point you to Oliver's book Basketball on Paper for complete details. The process for crediting Offensive Win Shares is outlined below (using LeBron James of the 2008-09 Cleveland Cavaliers as an example):

Calculate points produced for each player. In 2008-09, James had an estimated 2345.9 points produced.
Calculate offensive possessions for each player. James had an estimated 1928.1 offensive possessions in 2008-09.
Calculate marginal offense for each player. Marginal offense is equal to (points produced) - 0.92 * (league points per possession) * (offensive possessions). For James this is 2345.9 - 0.92 * 1.083 * 1928.1 = 424.8. Note that this formula may produce a negative result for some players.
Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace)). For the 2008-09 Cavaliers this is 0.32 * 100.0 * (88.7 / 91.7) = 30.95.
Credit Offensive Win Shares to the players. Offensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal offense) / (marginal points per win). James gets credit for 424.8 / 30.95 = 13.73 Offensive Win SharesHow do they know that James produced 2345.9 points? Well they don't, they estimated it. How do they know that James had 1928.1 offensive possessions? Well they don't, they estimated it. "Marginal offense is equal to (points produced) - 0.92 * (league points per possession) * (offensive possessions)." Um, ok. Why are we subtracting 92% of league points per possession multiplied by offensive possessions? Do you really know what any of this means?

I really think that anyone that cites a bunch of numbers like these as if they know what they mean is full of shit... I'm just normally more civil about it.

But really TL;DR: JB is not a net negative you dumb ass.

[Manny98]

Click the links, idiot. It's not that hard. How these stats are calculated and what goes into it is all there. Might be a bit difficult for you to understand all that math and numbers, but try.

Good lord, you people are dumb.
You yourself clearly don't understand half of the numbers you posted :roll:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Now to be fair the reason why I accept my"casual fan" status is that there are people out there that fully understand and even write these kinds of formulas and I have almost no interest in discussing the math with them. I haven't studied algebra in a long time and don't want to. I don't feel it's needed to understand basketball on the level I want to understand it. But you can feel free to keep on posting things you don't understand.

[aj1987]

You yourself clearly don't understand half of the numbers you posted :roll:

And you're incapable of switching accounts, which caused to to go on a months long meltdown. What happened to "your" Lakers?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463077-Who-is-going-with-me-to-watch-Lakers-in-the-playoffs-this-year&p=13631237&viewfull=1#post13631237


You didn't post the formula you posted links. Because you don't understand these formulas. Let's take win shares:

How do they know that James produced 2345.9 points? Well they don't, they estimated it. How do they know that James had 1928.1 offensive possessions? Well they don't, they estimated it. "Marginal offense is equal to (points produced) - 0.92 * (league points per possession) * (offensive possessions)." Um, ok. Why are we subtracting 92% of league points per possession multiplied by offensive possessions? Do you really know what any of this means?

I really think that anyone that cites a bunch of numbers like these as if they know what they mean is full of shit... I'm just normally more civil about it.

But really TL;DR: JB is not a net negative you dumb ass.

Back to the "you don't understand" argument. You're Manny level retarded and here I was thinking you were actually capable of making a resonable basketball argument. Do you just understand how ****ing retarded your first statement is, in this post? If I did not understand these stats, why would I even post the links with the formulas in them, idiot?

I've provided basic stats, advanced metrics, team records, etc.. Every single one of them PROVES that LeBron is a better player than Brown. You threw shit at the wall and now you can't clean it up.

Even ignoring EVER single metric. The Celtics are factually better without Brown. The record proves it. Not a small sample size either.

For the hundredth time, there's a reason why I posted multiple basic stats, advanced metrics, player tracking numbers and metrics, and team records. You can't just take a single stat or metric by itself and crown a player. However, when literally everything is in favor of one player, there's a good case to be made for that player over the other, who's inferior to him in basically everything.

Now try to make a coherent argument about why Brown is a better player than LeBron, instead of you inane rambling and meltdowns and back it up with FACTS or you can just hold the L and move on.

TL;DR RWWG: "I'm gonna have a bitch fit because I made a completely retarded statement and I can't back up my dumbass claim."

[Manny98]

AJ completely embarrassing himself in this thread
Saying the Celtics are better without their second best player based off a stat that you clearly don't know **** all about otherwise you wouldn't make such a ridiculous claim and then doubling down on it :facepalm

[aj1987]

AJ completely embarrassing himself in this thread
Saying the Celtics are better without their second best player based off a stat that you clearly don't know **** all about otherwise you wouldn't make such a ridiculous claim and then doubling down on it :facepalm

It's the team record, you absolute ****wit. They're 12-3 without him which is a 62 win pace and with him they're on a 55 win pace.

Words are hard, but try reading.

[Manny98]

It's the team record, you absolute ****wit. They're 12-3 without him which is a 56 win pace and with him they're on a 55 win pace.

Words are hard, but try reading.
Ignoring all other context like other injuries during that time and the type of teams they were playing in the span he was out , god you're such a delusional idiot it's clear you haven't watched a Celtics game this season to say such a ridiculous statement.

[aj1987]

Ignoring all other context like other injuries during that time and the type of teams they were playing in the span he was out , god you're such a delusional idiot it's clear you haven't watched a Celtics game this season to say such a ridiculous statement.

You can go look all that up. A simple Google search should take you to it. Not that difficult. I bet I've watched more games this season than you have in your entire life, you brain troll. What team are you going to jump to the next time you get caught on your alt?

[Manny98]

Also they're actually 9-3 without him, at least get your facts right before insulting others

And 8 or those 9 wins were against the Hornets and Pistons the two worst teams in the East and the Nets without KD

As I said context matters, carry on

[aj1987]

Also they're actually 9-3 without him, at least get your facts right before insulting others

And 8 or those 9 wins were against the Hornets and Pistons the two worst teams in the East and the Nets without KD

As I said context matters, carry on

Yep. My bad. I did say 9-3 earlier.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?510755-Who-are-the-top-10-players-in-the-nba-(no-order-so-no-agenda-is-needed)&p=14748456&viewfull=1#post14748456

Also, not a 56 win pace. 62 win pace. 7 Wins were against Detroit and Hornets. They won against the Nets and Memphis. Smart didn't play that either. The loss against the Bucks? It was Williams, Muscala, Griffin, White, and Hauser starting. They lost by 6 that game.

[Axe]

Clevleand is worse with Mitchell on the floor than with him off like Utah was :facepalm
And yet he's already bound to make the playoffs with his new team. Go figure.

[Xiao Yao You]

And yet he's already bound to make the playoffs with his new team. Go figure.

a play in team a year ago. It wasn't expected? They might not score enough for your tastes I'm afraid though

[Manny98]

a play in team a year ago. It wasn't expected? They might not score enough for your tastes I'm afraid though
Can't give Mitchell credit if a gun was pointed towards your head

[Xiao Yao You]

Can't give Mitchell credit if a gun was pointed towards your head

credit for what? Hype has never moved me. Guys that don't compete at both ends, are inefficient gunners who don't share the ball have never done anything for me.

[Manny98]

credit for what? Hype has never moved me. Guys that don't compete at both ends, are inefficient gunners who don't share the ball have never done anything for me.
So Cleveland going from barley.500 to the best net rating in the league has nothing to do with the addition of Mitchell?

[Xiao Yao You]

So Cleveland going from barley.500 to the best net rating in the league has nothing to do with the addition of Mitchell?

I don't follow them. They were pretty good last year before a late season collapse if I remember correctly. A young team getting better should happen. Why are they worse when he's on the floor than off? This isn't a new thing with him. I'd assume his lack of D and sharing the ball play a part

[Manny98]

I don't follow them. They were pretty good last year before a late season collapse if I remember correctly. A young team getting better should happen. Why are they worse when he's on the floor than off? This isn't a new thing with him. I'd assume his lack of D and sharing the ball play a part
Cavs are 5-6 without Mitchell this season dumb troll :facepalm

[Xiao Yao You]

Cavs are 5-6 without Mitchell this season dumb troll :facepalm

the insults are flying. Someone takes this shit personally! An 11 game span this time! :cheers:

[ShawkFactory]

credit for what? Hype has never moved me. Guys that don't compete at both ends, are inefficient gunners who don't share the ball have never done anything for me.

And that’s fine that he doesn’t do anything for you. But you should be willing to recognize that it’s a personal preference of yours and not a truth.

[Xiao Yao You]

And that’s fine that he doesn’t do anything for you. But you should be willing to recognize that it’s a personal preference of yours and not a truth.

to me it is truth. Lots of guys I think are overrated.

[BallsOut]

Durant
Giannis
Jokic
Embiid
Mitchell
Tatum
Booker
Curry
Kawhi
Butler

[Wally450]

LeBron
Jokic
Embiid
Tatum
Curry
Durant
Giannis
Luka
Harden
Dame

no order, off the top of my head quickly.

[ImKobe]

AJ completely embarrassing himself in this thread
Saying the Celtics are better without their second best player based off a stat that you clearly don't know **** all about otherwise you wouldn't make such a ridiculous claim and then doubling down on it :facepalm

Bran stans are embarrassing man.

[Axe]

a play in team a year ago. It wasn't expected? They might not score enough for your tastes I'm afraid though
And still they have a better record than 2d's wolves these days. :roll:

[WhiteKyrie]

Curry
Giannis
Luka
KD
AD
Jokic
Embiid
Kawhi

Then :confusedshrug:

Next batch

Tatum
Brown
Mitchell
Dame
Ja
Kyrie
Booker
LeBron
Garland
Haliburton

[aj1987]

Bran stans are embarrassing man.

You should be the last person talking. When have you not embarrassed yourself in basketball debates on this board?

[ImKobe]

You should be the last person talking. When have you not embarrassed yourself in basketball debates on this board?

I'm not the one who's arguing that the Celtics are better without Jaylen when he's been carrying them the past few weeks lol. You said Jaylen can't do what Bran did without AD in order to weather the storm but he's been putting up 30/7/4 on 53/37/73 splits these past 12 games and has kept them alive with the potential to still get the #1 seed while they've had to deal with a bunch of injuries.

And you got destroyed ITT when you tried to use the Celtics' record without Jaylen when 7 of those wins came vs Detroit & Charlotte lmao, and even in the 5 games vs. Playoff teams they went 2 - 3 with wins vs BKN (no KD) and a Memphis team that had won 3 out of their last 11. I think most good teams would have a high win rate vs. tanking/mediocre teams with their 2nd best player out.

[Full Court]

You should be the last person talking. When have you not embarrassed yourself in basketball debates on this board?

You should just be grateful that your village gives their idiot a monthly internet time slot.

:roll:

[ShawkFactory]

Curry
Giannis
Luka
KD
AD
Jokic
Embiid
Kawhi

Then :confusedshrug:

Next batch

Tatum
Brown
Mitchell
Dame
Ja
Kyrie
Booker
LeBron
Garland
Haliburton

You're missing Shai, but other than that this is pretty spot on. Sabonis needs some mention too.

[Xiao Yao You]

Marc Stein: Brandon Ingram and Jaylen Brown were just named West and East Player of the Week by the NBA (https://*********.com/social/). More NBA from me: marcstein.substack.com
– via Twitter TheSteinLine (https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine)

[WhiteKyrie]

You're missing Shai, but other than that this is pretty spot on. Sabonis needs some mention too.
Shit I forgot. And yea I would go sign that

[tontoz]

Enough with the Lebron nonsense. He's played only 48 games. :facepalm

[Axe]

Marc Stein: Brandon Ingram and Jaylen Brown were just named West and East Player of the Week by the NBA (https://*********.com/social/). More NBA from me: marcstein.substack.com
– via Twitter TheSteinLine (https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine)
Ingraham. :roll:

[k0kakw0rld]

Pascal Siakam

[Xiao Yao You]

Lauri deserves a mention

[aj1987]

You should just be grateful that my village gives their idiot a monthly internet time slot.

:roll:

Agreed, idiot. You must be running over your quota allotted though. Be careful. :cheers:

[ShawkFactory]

Elite
Giannis
Jokic
Embiid
Curry
KD
Luka

Could Be Elite but Always Injured/Resting
AD
Kawhi

Very Close
Butler
Tatum
Dame

Dynamic But Not Elite
Lebron
Kyrie
Ja
Booker
Shai
Mitchell
Brown
PG
Sabonis

Best of the Rest
Haliburton
Trae
Fox
Ingram
Markkanen
Garland
Jrue

I think you could argue that Dame isn't in the group with Tatum and Butler, and you could argue Trae is in the group above where I have him.

But that's 27 guys and there are some really good players that I left out. The league is in pretty good hands at the moment just from a talent perspective.

[ImKobe]

Marc Stein: Brandon Ingram and Jaylen Brown were just named West and East Player of the Week by the NBA (https://*********.com/social/). More NBA from me: marcstein.substack.com
– via Twitter TheSteinLine (https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine)

Bad week for BI haters.

[aj1987]

I'm not the one who's arguing that the Celtics are better without Jaylen when he's been carrying them the past few weeks lol. You said Jaylen can't do what Bran did without AD in order to weather the storm but he's been putting up 30/7/4 on 53/37/73 splits these past 12 games and has kept them alive with the potential to still get the #1 seed while they've had to deal with a bunch of injuries.

And you got destroyed ITT when you tried to use the Celtics' record without Jaylen when 7 of those wins came vs Detroit & Charlotte lmao, and even in the 5 games vs. Playoff teams they went 2 - 3 with wins vs BKN (no KD) and a Memphis team that had won 3 out of their last 11. I think most good teams would have a high win rate vs. tanking/mediocre teams with their 2nd best player out.


I have two simple questions for you. On-Off is one of your go to stats, right? Do you mind posting Brown's On-Off this season?

[Full Court]

Jokic
Giannis
Harden
Curry
Durant
Lebron
Embiid
Luka
Lillard
AD
Butler
Tatum
Booker
Cp3
Ja
Zion
Kyrie
Trae
Donovan Mitchell
Ant edwards
Shai
Kawhi
Paul George


I listed everyone I thought could be possibly listed so you don’t have to rack your brains to remember players. Go

Jokic
Giannis
Embiid
Butler
Kawhi
SGA
Tatum
Durant
AD
Zion/Curry

[Full Court]

I have two simple questions for you. On-Off is one of your go to stats, right? Do you mind posting Brown's On-Off this season?

Wow....we already knew this guy was dumb...but he's actually trying to argue that LeShrivel is having a better season than Jaylen Brown?????

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FsZDPNsi MeGgrC%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=56a387046a724fbb593661f9c4894dbf2f32e48c90e137 b5ac7023dad7d94d79&ipo=images

[aj1987]

I'm retarded.

Everyone knows that. :cheers:

[ImKobe]

I have two simple questions for you. On-Off is one of your go to stats, right? Do you mind posting Brown's On-Off this season?

Don't you think the 12 games where they played the 2 of the worst teams in the league 7x would have a significant impact on the On/Off numbers? They're still a +5.1 on the court with him but that On/Off number is inflated by those games against bad teams that he didn't get to play in. I don't get how you'd be dumb enough to make an argument that Jaylen actually makes the C's worse lmao. Are you trolling or are you actually this stupid?

[aj1987]

Don't you think the 12 games where they played the 2 of the worst teams in the league 7x would have a significant impact on the On/Off numbers? They're still a +5.1 on the court with him but that On/Off number is inflated by those games against bad teams that he didn't get to play in. I don't get how you'd be dumb enough to make an argument that Jaylen actually makes the C's worse lmao. Are you trolling or are you actually this stupid?

Playing "2 of the worst team 7x" is 14 games. How did that happen in 12 games? Or am I missing something. Also, Brown is a -4 for the season. I don't know where you're getting +5.1 from. In fact, he never had a season where he had a +/- of +5.1.

You literally use +/- all the time to compare player and call a player a negative or bad. Now that it's Brown vs LeBron, you think it's a useless stat.

Literally EVERY SINGLE stat and metric has LeBron being better than Brown. Just the fact that we're discussing LeBron vs Brown shows how ****ing stupid some of you are. At least RMWG admitted to being a casual fan, so he gets a pass. What's your excuse?

LeBron also missed games vs Jazz, Nets, Pistons, Spurs, Blazers, Rockets, Magic, etc.. All of which, if he had played them, would've bumped up his +/- and had the Lakers sitting in the 4th or 5th spot.

LeBron is up to +8.9 for the season, BTW.

EDIT: You didn't answer my question in the other thread. You want to use these advanced metrics and stats to compare LeBron and Kobe?

[Jasper]

Jokic
Giannis
Harden
Curry
Durant
Lebron
Embiid
Luka
J.Brown
Kyrie
Bonus pick: Tatum

[ImKobe]

Playing "2 of the worst team 7x" is 14 games. How did that happen in 12 games? Or am I missing something. Also, Brown is a -4 for the season. I don't know where you're getting +5.1 from. In fact, he never had a season where he had a +/- of +5.1.

You literally use +/- all the time to compare player and call a player a negative or bad. Now that it's Brown vs LeBron, you think it's a useless stat.

Literally EVERY SINGLE stat and metric has LeBron being better than Brown. Just the fact that we're discussing LeBron vs Brown shows how ****ing stupid some of you are. At least RMWG admitted to being a casual fan, so he gets a pass. What's your excuse?

LeBron also missed games vs Jazz, Nets, Pistons, Spurs, Blazers, Rockets, Magic, etc.. All of which, if he had played them, would've bumped up his +/- and had the Lakers sitting in the 4th or 5th spot.

LeBron is up to +8.9 for the season, BTW.

EDIT: You didn't answer my question in the other thread. You want to use these advanced metrics and stats to compare LeBron and Kobe?

7 of the 12 is obviously what I was saying.. -4 (now -3.7) is the NET rating, you don't even know what the ****ing stat means and you're spouting these numbers. They're a positive with him on the court but have beat teams by an even bigger margin while he's been off in large part thanks to those games vs. bad teams where he was not on the court. Celtics are stacked. Stacked teams still win with one of their main guys out, especially vs. the worst teams in the league.

[aj1987]

7 of the 12 is obviously what I was saying.. -4 (now -3.7) is the NET rating, you don't even know what the ****ing stat means and you're spouting these numbers. They're a positive with him on the court but have beat teams by an even bigger margin while he's been off in large part thanks to those games vs. bad teams where he was not on the court. Celtics are stacked. Stacked teams still win with one of their main guys out, especially vs. the worst teams in the league.

No, you did not. You got caught lying like you always do. Just man up and admit it.

You're just in denial now. You can cry all you want, but Brown ended the season with a -3.8. You say the team is stacked, but even with a stacked team, Brown doesn't have a positive rating. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and you're way way out of your depth here. Against the 5 worst teams in the league, dude is a +95, so there goes that autistic "logic" of yours. His +/- would be even worse, if he missed those games.

[Spurs m8]

Oh look...Kamal's village has its monthly hour of internet today.

Enjoy, kamal!!

[aj1987]

Oh look...Kamal's village has its monthly hour of internet today.

Enjoy, kamal!!

Cuck m8 to the rescue of his lover. How's is going, ******?

[BallsOut]

LeBron
Jokic
Embiid
Tatum
Curry
Durant
Giannis
Luka
Harden
Dame

no order, off the top of my head quickly.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[ImKobe]

No, you did not. You got caught lying like you always do. Just man up and admit it.

You're just in denial now. You can cry all you want, but Brown ended the season with a -3.8. You say the team is stacked, but even with a stacked team, Brown doesn't have a positive rating. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and you're way way out of your depth here. Against the 5 worst teams in the league, dude is a +95, so there goes that autistic "logic" of yours. His +/- would be even worse, if he missed those games.

Took you this long to respond and you still couldn't defend yourself LOL. I said he was still a positive player on the court, which he was since they were outscoring teams with him. Net Rating looks at his ORTG/DRTG and compares it to the team's ORTG/DRTG numbers with him off the court.. hence the On/Off or Net Rating stat.. So you could see how him not playing vs. the worst teams in the league would impact the data. He still had a positive rating when he played and looks like he's better than Tatum in yet another Playoff series.

Just take the L & keep it moving.

[Prometheus]

Jokic
Luka
Sabonis
Herro
Reaves
Giddey
Huerter
Steven Adams
Alex Caruso
Kevin Love

[aj1987]

Took you this long to respond and you still couldn't defend yourself LOL. I said he was still a positive player on the court, which he was since they were outscoring teams with him. Net Rating looks at his ORTG/DRTG and compares it to the team's ORTG/DRTG numbers with him off the court.. hence the On/Off or Net Rating stat.. So you could see how him not playing vs. the worst teams in the league would impact the data. He still had a positive rating when he played and looks like he's better than Tatum in yet another Playoff series.

Just take the L & keep it moving.

Unlike you, I don't spend every waking minute on this board. Also, TF are you babbling about. Have you completely lost it? I just provided FACTS, which shit on your "logic". Try responding to that.

Tatum and Brown are exactly at +2.5 On-Off for the PO's right now. Now lets look at their stat lines.

Tatum - 27.2 PPG 10.0 RPG 5.1 APG 0.7 SPG 1.2 BPG 2.5 TOV/G at 57.9 TS%

Brown - 26.7 PPG 5.3 RPG 3.0 APG 1.2 SPG 0.5 BPG 3.5 TOV/G at 61.4 TS%

I'm not even going to post the other advanced stats, as Tatum absolutely annihilates him on those. Not even close.

[Manny98]

Giannis
Jokic
Embiid
LeBron
KD
Luka
Kawhi
AD
Butler
Curry

Yep these are definitely the top 10 players in the NBA right now

Not sure about the order yet

[ArbitraryWater]

Yep these are definitely the top 10 players in the NBA right now

Not sure about the order yet

the top 10 is kinda easy to call unless someone thinks Tatum should be over any of those.


but BITW is really hard to call this year.

After Game 7, Curry looks like a good pick right now. Before game 7 I could not have called a BITW.

luka is the BITW to me, and his numbers were outrageous this year. Of course many wont like picking a BITW that missed the playoffs.

[John8204]

Legacy
1. Lebron James
2. Steph Curry
3. Giannis Antetokounmpo
4. Chris Paul
5. Kwahi Leonard
6. Kevin Durant
7. James Harden
8. Nikola Jokic
9. Jimmy Butler
10. Damian Lillard

Active/MVP/All-NBA level
1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2. Steph Curry
3. Nikola Jokic
4. Joel Embiid
5. Jayson Tatum
6. Jimmy Butler
7. Luka Doncic
8. Lebron James
9. Kevin Durant
10. Donovan Mitchell

[BallsOut]

He might be a better defender, but he's a significantly worse offensive player and the difference in defense doesn't make up for it. LeBron has him beat at literally almost everything. Basic and advanced stats.

LeBron - 29.5 PPG 8.1 RPG 6.9 APG 1.3 SPG 1.1 BPG on 58.3% TS%

Jaylen - 26.7 PPG 6.9 RPG 3.4 APG 1.1 SPG 0.4 BPG on 58.6% TS%

Basic stats, the only thing Brown has on LeBron is a 0.3% advantage in efficiency.

Advanced Stats

LeBron - 3.0 OWS 2.1 DWS 5.0 WS .143 WS/48 5.6 OBPM 0.7 DBPM 6.3 BPM 3.5 VORP +7.5 On/Off 111 ORtg 112 DRtg

Jaylen - 1.9 OWS 3.1 DWS 4.9 WS .106 WS/48 1.8 OBPM -0.2 DBPM 1.6 BPM 2.0 VORP -3.0 On/Off 115 ORtg 113 DRtg

Again, the only thing that Brown has over LeBron is DWS.

As for RPM, LeBron is 4th in the league at 7.68. Brown is 44th with 3.97.

LeBron - 4.75 ORPM 2.94 DRPM 7.68 RPM with 13.89 wins

Brown - 2.11 ORPM 1.86 DRPM 3.97 RPM with 11.86 wins

Looking at NBA's tracking stats, Jaylen Brown has been defending 12.6 shots a game and players are scoring at 47.3%, compared to 47.7% on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 0.4%.

LeBron has been defending 11.9 shots a game and players shoot 46.8% on those shots, compared to 48.7 on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 1.9%. Lets also not forget that Brown plays with significantly better defensive help.

Jaylen Brown is not a better player than LeBron. In the 50 or so games LeBron played this season, he's quite easily been a top 10 player. Jaylen Brown? Nope. Stop it.



Bojan and Donovan played more games than Gobert last season. I'm assuming you have them ahead of him? How about in 2018 when Donovan played 81 games and Gobert played 56?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[BallsOut]

He might be a better defender, but he's a significantly worse offensive player and the difference in defense doesn't make up for it. LeBron has him beat at literally almost everything. Basic and advanced stats.

LeBron - 29.5 PPG 8.1 RPG 6.9 APG 1.3 SPG 1.1 BPG on 58.3% TS%

Jaylen - 26.7 PPG 6.9 RPG 3.4 APG 1.1 SPG 0.4 BPG on 58.6% TS%

Basic stats, the only thing Brown has on LeBron is a 0.3% advantage in efficiency.

Advanced Stats

LeBron - 3.0 OWS 2.1 DWS 5.0 WS .143 WS/48 5.6 OBPM 0.7 DBPM 6.3 BPM 3.5 VORP +7.5 On/Off 111 ORtg 112 DRtg

Jaylen - 1.9 OWS 3.1 DWS 4.9 WS .106 WS/48 1.8 OBPM -0.2 DBPM 1.6 BPM 2.0 VORP -3.0 On/Off 115 ORtg 113 DRtg

Again, the only thing that Brown has over LeBron is DWS.

As for RPM, LeBron is 4th in the league at 7.68. Brown is 44th with 3.97.

LeBron - 4.75 ORPM 2.94 DRPM 7.68 RPM with 13.89 wins

Brown - 2.11 ORPM 1.86 DRPM 3.97 RPM with 11.86 wins

Looking at NBA's tracking stats, Jaylen Brown has been defending 12.6 shots a game and players are scoring at 47.3%, compared to 47.7% on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 0.4%.

LeBron has been defending 11.9 shots a game and players shoot 46.8% on those shots, compared to 48.7 on all other defenders, making him a net positive by 1.9%. Lets also not forget that Brown plays with significantly better defensive help.

Jaylen Brown is not a better player than LeBron. In the 50 or so games LeBron played this season, he's quite easily been a top 10 player. Jaylen Brown? Nope. Stop it.



Bojan and Donovan played more games than Gobert last season. I'm assuming you have them ahead of him? How about in 2018 when Donovan played 81 games and Gobert played 56?

:roll: :roll:

[aj1987]

:roll: :roll:

Forgot to switch accounts?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Forgot to switch accounts?

Forget to refresh your browser? It's been 4 months...

[aj1987]

Forget to refresh your browser? It's been 4 months...

No one asked you, you tranny cuck. Go back to indoctrinating kids. Comedy isn't your thing.

JSYK, there are these things called subscribed threads, you retarded little libtard incel mouth breather. You should know that as a mod. :cheers: :cheers:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Someone has anger issues. And probably didn't refresh his browser.

[RRR3]

No one asked you, you tranny cuck. Go back to indoctrinating kids. Comedy isn't your thing.

JSYK, there are these things called subscribed threads, you retarded little libtard incel mouth breather. You should know that as a mod. :cheers: :cheers:
Meltdown :yaohappy:

[warriorfan]

why the hell is this low iq street shitter bumping months old threads? :lol

[Full Court]

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic
KD
AD
Curry
Doncic
Butler
SGA
Dame

That's a pretty good list. I'd swap out Lillard for Tatum, but other than that, my list is the same.

[aj1987]

How low IQ do you have to be to not know how subscribed threads work?


Real Women and crackfan on the the same level.

Not surprised that the trrr3anny is agreeing with them.

[warriorfan]

How low IQ do you have to be to not know how subscribed threads work?


Real Women and crackfan on the the same level.

Not surprised that the trrr3anny is agreeing with them.

Just because you bookmarked it doesn’t make it relevant to the rest of the forum

good lord you are autistic as hell

[RRR3]

aj1987 100% jerks it to trans porn. How many times is he dude gonna bring that shit up :roll:

[aj1987]

aj1987 100% jerks it to trans porn. How many times is he dude gonna bring that shit up :roll:
Go back to supporting to genocidal Islamic terrorists, fat boy. :cheers:


Just because you bookmarked it doesn’t make it relevant to the rest of the forum

good lord you are autistic as hell

I think your crack was kicking in when you replied, brokefan. :cheers: