Consistent GOAT criteria

[basketballcat]

How do we determine the NBA GOAT? It seems like a lot of people go with narratives that are selective and biased.

Let's try to apply CONSISTENT criteria, no shifting the goal posts please.

1. Number of rings
Russell has 11. He has 5 MVPs too.

2. MVPs
Kareem has 6. +6 rings. +2nd highest scorer ever.

3. Best two-way players
Olajuwon and Kawhi have 2 DPOYs and 2 FMVPs. Duncan has 15 All Defensive selections, the most all time. You know the rest. Surely, these 3 are the greatest 2-way players ever.

4. Highest peak
Olajuwon won DPOY, MVP, and FMVP is 94. Nothing tops that for a full year peak.

Duncan beat peak Shaq & Kobe in 2003 without an All Star Spur teammate. Both Shaq & Kobe were in the All NBA FIRST team. Both were in the top 5 of MVP voting. Meanwhile. DRob was on his last year. Manu was a rookie. Both averaged single-digit ppg. Parker was a sophomore, 3 years away from making his first All Start appearance. Shot poorly in the playoffs too: 40.3%. Duncan's 2003 run has the all time highest single season playoff WS, 2nd all time in VORP. Greatest playoff peak ever.

5. Winning percentage
Russell was champ in 11 of his 13 seasons. That's 85% of the time.

Jordan is 6 for 15 seasons: 40%. Let's take away '95 and the Wizards years: 6 of 12 is still just 50%.

We all know "Finals record" is dumb. How is losing BEFORE the Finals better than progressing deeper into the playoffs? In any case, because somebody will inevitably bring it up, Havlicek went 8-0 in the Finals.

6. Quality of rings
LeBron was FMVP in 2016, after beating the 73-win GSW. In fact, he led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. He had higher FG% than Kyrie, Steph, and Klay.

Btw, he's also the NBA's all time top scorer. He did that at higher FG% than MJ. When LeBron passed Jordan, he did it with 1,300 less shots.

As mentioned, Duncan's 2003 ring was extremely alpha.

7. Winnability on different franchises
LeBron is the only player to lead three franchises into rings. Kareem and Kawhi did it 2x. All three won FMVP under different coaches, teammates, and systems.

Jordan never won without Phil or Pippen. In fact, he won just 1 playoff game without those two. Phil won 5 rings without Jordan. Pippen was 1 solid quarter away from a very probable 7th ring. Rodman, Harper, and Kerr all have rings outside of Jordan.
----------------

Try to think of the criteria FIRST, then work out who the GOAT is. Doing it the other way around is just disingenuous.

[sdot_thadon]

How do we determine the NBA GOAT? It seems like a lot of people go with narratives that are selective and biased.

Let's try to apply CONSISTENT criteria, no shifting the goal posts please.

1. Number of rings
Russell has 11. He has 5 MVPs too.

2. MVPs
Kareem has 6. +6 rings. +2nd highest scorer ever.

3. Best two-way players
Olajuwon and Kawhi have 2 DPOYs and 2 FMVPs. Duncan has 15 All Defensive selections, the most all time. You know the rest. Surely, these 3 are the greatest 2-way players ever.

4. Highest peak
Olajuwon won DPOY, MVP, and FMVP is 94. Nothing tops that for a full year peak.

Duncan beat peak Shaq & Kobe in 2003 without an All Star Spur teammate. Both Shaq & Kobe were in the All NBA FIRST team. Both were in the top 5 of MVP voting. Meanwhile. DRob was on his last year. Manu was a rookie. Both averaged single-digit ppg. Parker was a sophomore, 3 years away from making his first All Start appearance. Shot poorly in the playoffs too: 40.3%. Duncan's 2003 run has the all time highest single season playoff WS, 2nd all time in VORP. Greatest playoff peak ever.

5. Winning percentage
Russell was champ in 11 of his 13 seasons. That's 85% of the time.

Jordan is 6 for 15 seasons: 40%. Let's take away '95 and the Wizards years: 6 of 12 is still just 50%.

We all know "Finals record" is dumb. How is losing BEFORE the Finals better than progressing deeper into the playoffs? In any case, because somebody will inevitably bring it up, Havlicek went 8-0 in the Finals.

6. Quality of rings
LeBron was FMVP in 2016, after beating the 73-win GSW. In fact, he led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. He had higher FG% than Kyrie, Steph, and Klay.

Btw, he's also the NBA's all time top scorer. He did that at higher FG% than MJ. When LeBron passed Jordan, he did it with 1,300 less shots.

As mentioned, Duncan's 2003 ring was extremely alpha.

7. Winnability on different franchises
LeBron is the only player to lead three franchises into rings. Kareem and Kawhi did it 2x. All three won FMVP under different coaches, teammates, and systems.

Jordan never won without Phil or Pippen. In fact, he won just 1 playoff game without those two. Phil won 5 rings without Jordan. Pippen was 1 solid quarter away from a very probable 7th ring. Rodman, Harper, and Kerr all have rings outside of Jordan.
----------------

Try to think of the criteria FIRST, then work out who the GOAT is. Doing it the other way around is just disingenuous.

Well you gotta do it the other way around so the guy you prefer can come out on top lol. Yeah the moving goalposts is crazy on most people's top 10 if you were to really ask and break them down.

[iamgine]

In the end, criteria is subjective and flexible.

Mikan was dominant and had 5 titles, yet he's not even top 20 in most lists.

KD has two rings, but who really counts his rings as much as even one of Hakeem's rings.

As we can see, there can be no consistent criteria.

[Axe]

Lol. You're just going to trigger braindead casuals with this stuff, mind you.

[bison]

To me it boils down to four things

1 Stats - where the player ranks in certain categories, how well he performed statistically
2 Accolades - awards, mvp, rings and the like
3 Eye test/context - how good really was he actually on the court? What’s the context of his stats and rings? We know not all rings are created equal.
4 impact/legacy - Did he change the game? How did they further popularize the nba?

[basketballcat]

"Eye test" is by far the most subjective. To me, it's basically "I feel like <insert claim here>". As for #4, "popularising" a sport is more of a business criterion rather than a competitive sports criterion.

Now that you mention it, GOAT debates often becomes "most popular player" rather the actual best player.

[Da_Realist]

There's only one fanbase that wants everything boiled down to objective criteria, which really just means numbers. Numbers that can be manipulated to make a guy look better than he actually is, by the way. But since watching the game is thrown out, the calculator nerds win the debate. Gotcha.

[iamgine]

"Eye test" is by far the most subjective. To me, it's basically "I feel like <insert claim here>". As for #4, "popularising" a sport is more of a business criterion rather than a competitive sports criterion.

Now that you mention it, GOAT debates often becomes "most popular player" rather the actual best player.

Well, that's cause GOAT is about who's the greatest and not who's the best, most skilled player on the court.

[bison]

Well, that's cause GOAT is about who's the greatest and not who's the best, most skilled player on the court.

:oldlol: Bron stans now resorting to having to redefine the English language to make their case

[basketballcat]

Just a quick clarification: personally, it's about sports achievement (e.g. winning, accolades, stats) within the NBA. Skill doesn't really count for that much. What's skill for if you didn't live up to your potential?

[basketballcat]

The thing with "watching the game" is that two people could watch the same game and reach different conclusions. It's "eye test" (aka "totally made up conclusion") all over again. Also, nobody said watching the game is "thrown out". If you're just interested in setting up strawman arguments, good luck with that.

[bison]

Sports is entertainment first and foremost so skill and talent definitely counts. How much you think it weighs in overall GOAT criteria is arguable, but to write it off completely makes no sense

[bison]

The thing with "watching the game" is that two people could watch the same game and reach different conclusions. It's "eye test" (aka "totally made up conclusion") all over again. Also, nobody said watching the game is "thrown out". If you're just interested in setting up strawman arguments, good luck with that.

Eye test isn’t ‘totally made up’. What do you think analysts mean when they talk about ‘intangibles’. Not everything shows up in the box score.

[basketballcat]

Exactly. Totally subjective. "Eye test". "Intangibles". Aka "some shit I felt like making up".

If you want to have discussions on entertainment and skill in isolation (i.e. outside of actual achievements), then go ahead. Not my cup of tea, though. I'm more interested in an NBA GOAT discussion based on sports achievement (e.g. winning, accolades, stats). Mixing it up with the entertainment and business aspect of it devolves into a simple popularity contest.

[iamgine]

Just a quick clarification: personally, it's about sports achievement (e.g. winning, accolades, stats) within the NBA. Skill doesn't really count for that much. What's skill for if you didn't live up to your potential?

That's your own subjective criteria though.

And that's why there can't be consistent GOAT criteria.

[1987_Lakers]

How do we determine the NBA GOAT? It seems like a lot of people go with narratives that are selective and biased.

Let's try to apply CONSISTENT criteria, no shifting the goal posts please.

1. Number of rings
Russell has 11. He has 5 MVPs too.

2. MVPs
Kareem has 6. +6 rings. +2nd highest scorer ever.

3. Best two-way players
Olajuwon and Kawhi have 2 DPOYs and 2 FMVPs. Duncan has 15 All Defensive selections, the most all time. You know the rest. Surely, these 3 are the greatest 2-way players ever.

4. Highest peak
Olajuwon won DPOY, MVP, and FMVP is 94. Nothing tops that for a full year peak.

Duncan beat peak Shaq & Kobe in 2003 without an All Star Spur teammate. Both Shaq & Kobe were in the All NBA FIRST team. Both were in the top 5 of MVP voting. Meanwhile. DRob was on his last year. Manu was a rookie. Both averaged single-digit ppg. Parker was a sophomore, 3 years away from making his first All Start appearance. Shot poorly in the playoffs too: 40.3%. Duncan's 2003 run has the all time highest single season playoff WS, 2nd all time in VORP. Greatest playoff peak ever.

5. Winning percentage
Russell was champ in 11 of his 13 seasons. That's 85% of the time.

Jordan is 6 for 15 seasons: 40%. Let's take away '95 and the Wizards years: 6 of 12 is still just 50%.

We all know "Finals record" is dumb. How is losing BEFORE the Finals better than progressing deeper into the playoffs? In any case, because somebody will inevitably bring it up, Havlicek went 8-0 in the Finals.

6. Quality of rings
LeBron was FMVP in 2016, after beating the 73-win GSW. In fact, he led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. He had higher FG% than Kyrie, Steph, and Klay.

Btw, he's also the NBA's all time top scorer. He did that at higher FG% than MJ. When LeBron passed Jordan, he did it with 1,300 less shots.

As mentioned, Duncan's 2003 ring was extremely alpha.

7. Winnability on different franchises
LeBron is the only player to lead three franchises into rings. Kareem and Kawhi did it 2x. All three won FMVP under different coaches, teammates, and systems.

Jordan never won without Phil or Pippen. In fact, he won just 1 playoff game without those two. Phil won 5 rings without Jordan. Pippen was 1 solid quarter away from a very probable 7th ring. Rodman, Harper, and Kerr all have rings outside of Jordan.
----------------

Try to think of the criteria FIRST, then work out who the GOAT is. Doing it the other way around is just disingenuous.

I see your point, but #4 probably belongs to MJ.

[basketballcat]

That's your own subjective criteria though.

And that's why there can't be consistent GOAT criteria.

Oh, that's fine. We are free to choose our own criteria. It's actually good to iron out exactly what somebody means when they say GOAT. If somebody says Jordan and his marketing team greatly increased NBA's revenue, that's why he's my GOAT. No arguments there.

What I find irksome are conversations like below.

A: LeBron is the GOAT because he's the all time leading scorer.

B: Nah, it's all about winning. Jordan is the GOAT with 6 rings.

A: Wait, that means Russell is the GOAT because he has 11 rings.

B: That doesn't count, <insert reason here>
*goalpost shifted*

... <10 pages of arguments later>

*still changing goalposts, making GOAT criteria on the fly just to stick with original GOAT choice*

That's what I'm going after: criteria FIRST, applied consistently, then work out who the GOAT is. If we can't have all the same criteria, then at least have a consistent set of criteria for yourself from the beginning. What ends up happening is that people keeps modifying their criteria just so their favourite player comes out on top. :oldlol: It's disingenuous.

[Axe]

What about kobe? Why do some guys here have him as goat, despite not possessing any convincing factors as to why he should be? :confusedshrug: :oldlol:

[iamgine]

Oh, that's fine. We are free to choose our own criteria. It's actually good to iron out exactly what somebody means when they say GOAT. If somebody says Jordan and his marketing team greatly increased NBA's revenue, that's why he's my GOAT. No arguments there.

What I find irksome are conversations like below.

A: LeBron is the GOAT because he's the all time leading scorer.

B: Nah, it's all about winning. Jordan is the GOAT with 6 rings.

A: Wait, that means Russell is the GOAT because he has 11 rings.

B: That doesn't count, <insert reason here>
*goalpost shifted*

... <10 pages of arguments later>

*still changing goalposts, making GOAT criteria on the fly just to stick with original GOAT choice*

That's what I'm going after: criteria FIRST, applied consistently, then work out who the GOAT is. If we can't have all the same criteria, then at least have a consistent set of criteria for yourself from the beginning. What ends up happening is that people keeps modifying their criteria just so their favourite criteria comes out on top. :oldlol:

That is also not possible. It all comes to subjectivity. For example, it's very subjective which rings are more valuable. Or which era is more valuable.

Like in your example, that's not shifting goalpost. A person might legitimately feels Hakeem's 2 rings are much more valuable than Mikan's 5 rings.

[basketballcat]

What about kobe? Why do some guys here have him as goat, despite not possessing any convincing factors as to why he should be? :confusedshrug: :oldlol:

That's a great example. A lot of people put him in the GOAT debate because of his similarity to Jordan. He's supposed to be the improved version. Almost all objective criteria says he's not. He's not even the best of his generation since Duncan is by most objective measures the greater player.

[bison]

Kobe has something Duncan never had: The Mamba Mentality. Also when applying the eye test, Kobe is one of the few players in nba history that passes nearly flawlessly. This is why I have Kobe as #2 behind Jordan.

[basketballcat]

Kobe has something Duncan never had: The Mamba Mentality. Also when applying the eye test, Kobe is one of the few players in nba history that passes nearly flawlessly. This is why I have Kobe as #2 behind Jordan.

Here we go: intangibles, eye test, ... :facepalm

Duncan has +1 FMVP, +1 MVP, +3 All Defensive selections. Duncan is universally considered as the best PF ever and the best Spur ever. Kobe is not even the best SG ever nor the best Laker ever. :oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

For the calculator boys... for the first 12 full seasons, MJ led the league in a per-game stat 13 times: 10 offensive and 3 defensive. In the playoffs, he led the league in a per-game stat 12 times: 10 offensive and 2 defensive. As far as I know, only Wilt topped that back in the 60's. Kareem comes close if they had recorded blocks before the 73-74 season. Two HOF Centers. MJ was a 6-6 guard. Add in 6 titles, 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs and DPOY you have a career even Wilt would envy.

I would imagine if someone is regarded as the best of all time, he'd show he was at least the best of the league he played in.

That's something a calculator boy can understand. Add in the flair, charisma, creativity, clutch moments...those things you can only perceive by watching the games...and maybe you can understand why many consider MJ the best they've ever seen play.

See, there are no "big" moments on basketball-ref. All regular season games are treated the same. All playoff games are treated the same. All moments within the game are treated the same way. All points are regarded the same way whether stat padding or not. A guy can score all his points in garbage time against the 2nd unit and all the stat sheet will show is 24 points. All rebounds are treated the same, whether they land in your lap or you had to fight for it. All assists treated the same whether you actually put your teammate in a position to score or he just happened to hit the shot after a lazy pass. Only by watching the game can you detect that some moments, points, assists, rebounds are more important than others. Only by watching can you see how some numbers can be manipulated to make the stat sheet look good for the calculator boys.

[ImKobe]

Here we go: intangibles, eye test, ... :facepalm

Duncan has +1 FMVP, +1 MVP, +3 All Defensive selections. Duncan is universally considered as the best PF ever and the best Spur ever. Kobe is not even the best SG ever nor the best Laker ever. :oldlol:

Oh wow Wheelchair with another alt acting like he's trying to have a legitimate GOAT argument when it's just another thread slurping Bran.

MJ doesn't lose any points for winning with Phil & Pippen. It's much harder to win titles without stacking the deck and that's what Jordan did. Him taking a loser franchise like the Bulls and creating a dynasty without colliding with any superstars around the league is more impressive than anything Bran has ever done. Jordan did it the right way. He never came up short in a Playoff series. He was always the best player on his team in every single Playoff series. He dominated the league more consistently than anyone in league history. He never lost with HCA, never allowed his team to face elimination in the Finals. It's unlikely anyone's going to repeat what he did in his 11 healthy seasons in Chicago in the near future as the standard is just way too high.

Bran loses points for stacking the deck in 2011, 2014 & 2018. He ran when the supporting cast wasn't good enough to carry him to another championship. He's had more superstar help than any ATG in the modern NBA yet only has 4 rings which combined with his shortcomings has him out of the GOAT conversation.

Nice try though.

[Hey Yo]

Oh wow Wheelchair with another alt acting like he's trying to have a legitimate GOAT argument when it's just another thread slurping Bran.

MJ doesn't lose any points for winning with Phil & Pippen. It's much harder to win titles without stacking the deck and that's what Jordan did. Him taking a loser franchise like the Bulls and creating a dynasty without colliding with any superstars around the league is more impressive than anything Bran has ever done. Jordan did it the right way. He never came up short in a Playoff series. He was always the best player on his team in every single Playoff series. He dominated the league more consistently than anyone in league history. He never lost with HCA, never allowed his team to face elimination in the Finals. It's unlikely anyone's going to repeat what he did in his 11 healthy seasons in Chicago in the near future as the standard is just way too high.

Bran loses points for stacking the deck in 2011, 2014 & 2018. He ran when the supporting cast wasn't good enough to carry him to another championship. He's had more superstar help than any ATG in the modern NBA yet only has 4 rings which combined with his shortcomings has him out of the GOAT conversation.

Nice try though.
Kobe played with prime MDE Shaq who's sits firmly in the top 10 all time.

Who did LeBron play with (and won him 3 rings) that's currently in the top 10?

[ImKobe]

Kobe played with prime MDE Shaq who's sits firmly in the top 10 all time.

Who did LeBron play with (and won him 3 rings) that's currently in the top 10?

Why would that matter? Bran played with prime Wade, prime Irving & prime AD. Bran played in the WOAT conference where in 2015 the EC only had 3 All-NBA players total with 2 of them on the Cavs lmao.. He's had Finals runs where he didn't face a single 50-win team out East and all 3 teams were bottom 10 offensively as well.

Even if KB had better help (which is absolutely not true), he had to beat Duncan to make 4 of his 7 Finals and he was the better player in all 4 series. Kobe lost 3 years of his prime on a team that was rebuilding yet still made more Finals than Timmy and won more rings than Bran and he only needed a 1x All-Star who was barely considered a top 10-15 player at his peak to win B2B titles, something Duncan never did and Duncan was drafted to the best possible situation in the modern era with him going from D-Rob to TP/Manu & Kawhi with the GOAT coach and one of the GOAT GMs at his side for his entire career.

[Overdrive]

6. Quality of rings
LeBron was FMVP in 2016, after beating the 73-win GSW. In fact, he led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. He had higher FG% than Kyrie, Steph, and Klay.

Btw, he's also the NBA's all time top scorer. He did that at higher FG% than MJ. When LeBron passed Jordan, he did it with 1,300 less shots.

As mentioned, Duncan's 2003 ring was extremely alpha.

7. Winnability on different franchises
LeBron is the only player to lead three franchises into rings. Kareem and Kawhi did it 2x. All three won FMVP under different coaches, teammates, and systems.

Jordan never won without Phil or Pippen. In fact, he won just 1 playoff game without those two. Phil won 5 rings without Jordan. Pippen was 1 solid quarter away from a very probable 7th ring. Rodman, Harper, and Kerr all have rings outside of Jordan.
----------------

Try to think of the criteria FIRST, then work out who the GOAT is. Doing it the other way around is just disingenuous.

These are exactly narrative points. So at pont 5 you found out the guy you made this alt for has no shot at GOAT under an objective criteria so you need to push some narrative? I thought you wanted to leave that out?

[Hey Yo]

Why would that matter? Bran played with prime Wade, prime Irving & prime AD. Bran played in the WOAT conference where in 2015 the EC only had 3 All-NBA players total with 2 of them on the Cavs lmao.. He's had Finals runs where he didn't face a single 50-win team out East and all 3 teams were bottom 10 offensively as well.

Even if KB had better help (which is absolutely not true), he had to beat Duncan to make 4 of his 7 Finals and he was the better player in all 4 series. Kobe lost 3 years of his prime on a team that was rebuilding yet still made more Finals than Timmy and won more rings than Bran and he only needed a 1x All-Star who was barely considered a top 10-15 player at his peak to win B2B titles, something Duncan never did and Duncan was drafted to the best possible situation in the modern era with him going from D-Rob to TP/Manu & Kawhi with the GOAT coach and one of the GOAT GMs at his side for his entire career.
Cause prime Shaq is by far the better player than those you mentioned James played with.

Cavs went up 2-0 on th 60 win Hawks without Love. Then Kyrie gets hurt, yet Cavs still go on to sweep Atlanta. Kobe would have no chance of winning a WCF if he didn't have 2 of the top 3 players on the team.

Kobe didn't face Duncan in the postseason (without Shaq) until 2008. That's when you can start talking about a series Kobe won against Duncan.

[post]

calculator goat is a good nickname for jokic

https://i.ibb.co/p3JHjJd/Goat-Gestation-Calculator-1-1.jpg

[FKAri]

1) How good were you at playing basketball in a vacuum(if I'm picking in the playground are you the 1st pick?)
2) How good were you relative to your competition(your era/opponents) at playing basketball
3) How good were you across different teams/playstyles/coaches/systems(and how well could you adapt mentally, physically, and change your play as needed and still be effective)

That's it. Nothing else matters to me. My answer is MJ based on this criteria. Though the 3rd one is not very applicable for him I do hugely value his ability to go from a quick slasher to more of a jump shooter as he got older.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Oh, that's fine. We are free to choose our own criteria. It's actually good to iron out exactly what somebody means when they say GOAT. If somebody says Jordan and his marketing team greatly increased NBA's revenue, that's why he's my GOAT. No arguments there.

What I find irksome are conversations like below.

A: LeBron is the GOAT because he's the all time leading scorer.

B: Nah, it's all about winning. Jordan is the GOAT with 6 rings.

A: Wait, that means Russell is the GOAT because he has 11 rings.

B: That doesn't count, <insert reason here>
*goalpost shifted*

... <10 pages of arguments later>

*still changing goalposts, making GOAT criteria on the fly just to stick with original GOAT choice*

That's what I'm going after: criteria FIRST, applied consistently, then work out who the GOAT is. If we can't have all the same criteria, then at least have a consistent set of criteria for yourself from the beginning. What ends up happening is that people keeps modifying their criteria just so their favourite player comes out on top. :oldlol: It's disingenuous.

It's not goalpost shifted though. Russell was a great player in a league with 8 teams, and most of the great players all were on his team. 1961 there were 9 Hall of Fame players on the Celtics. Russell only scored 15.7 points per game for his career - great defensive player, but not exactly lighting it up offensively.
The GOAT is clearly Jordan - he scored 30 PPG on 50% shooting for his career, elevated his stats in the playoffs and beat the most 60 win teams. Every other person has major flaws in their GOAT case - Russell was only a 15 PPG game scorer, KAJ only won once in the 70's and didn't do crap until Magic came along, both he and Magic got swept in the finals, etc.
Lebron - 2007, 2011, 2014, 2018, 2010, too many years having done less with a stacked team. 0-8 in finals tying or game winning shots, 4 chips in 20 years (25% record) puts him around 10-11 just behind Kobe who has 5.

Meaning it's a combination of all of the above. Scoring & winning. Just getting titles won't get it, else Horry would be above Jordan. Scoring in bunches won't get it, else Wilt would be the GOAT with a 50 PPG season. It's the combination of both. I thought most people agreed on the combination of these two things?

There's only 1 player in the NBA who has:
10 scoring titles
5th FVMP ring
6th FVMP ring
Lead a 70+ win to win the title (followed up by doing the same with a 69 win team)
College & Olympic championships on top of all the above.

That is easily why MJ is the greatest basketball player ever - the combination of all the above.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Winning with different franchises is an unfair standard. To many all time greats spent all of their good years in one team for that to be relevant.

[Legend248]

Here we go: intangibles, eye test, ... :facepalm

Duncan has +1 FMVP, +1 MVP, +3 All Defensive selections. Duncan is universally considered as the best PF ever and the best Spur ever. Kobe is not even the best SG ever nor the best Laker ever. :oldlol:

hey bitch, the fact that you have to argue that lequeen diva james is a goat shows that you are wrong ****ing ******. I hate people like you bruh, seriously, if I saw you in person, I would whip your ass, I ****ING HATE you

[Airupthere]

Winning with different franchises is an unfair standard. To many all time greats spent all of their good years in one team for that to be relevant.

Lol is but another branstan adding bs criteria

[post]

every player's worst nightmare

this dude shows up at the playground and says you aren't as good as you think you are

https://i.ibb.co/FJ2XKJ3/51208652-muchacho-con-la-calculadora-poco-muchacho-negocios-como-est-sentado-en-la-mesa-y-apuntando.jpg

[1987_Lakers]

It's not goalpost shifted though. Russell was a great player in a league with 8 teams, and most of the great players all were on his team. 1961 there were 9 Hall of Fame players on the Celtics. Russell only scored 15.7 points per game for his career - great defensive player, but not exactly lighting it up offensively.


I like how you bring up all the "hof" players he played with, but fail to mention some of them are in the HOF just because they played with Russell. Seriously, K.C. Jones, Frank Ramsey & Tom Sanders are all in the HOF, none of them never even made an All-star team.

The other Hofers he played with?
Russell won 7 rings without Bill Sharman
Won 5 rings without Cousy & Havlicek
Won 3 rings without Heinsohn

The only HOF player who played with Russell on most of those chips was Sam Jones, but he wasn't even an All-star player until his 5th season in the league.

By 1965 or so, his teams were even with Wilt's teams talent wise, and he was still beating him most of the time. You also brush off how much of a defensive force Russell was, not only was he "great", but his defensive impact has never been duplicated by any other player in history.

[Da_Realist]

every player's worst nightmare

this dude shows up at the playground and says you aren't as good as you think you are

https://i.ibb.co/FJ2XKJ3/51208652-muchacho-con-la-calculadora-poco-muchacho-negocios-como-est-sentado-en-la-mesa-y-apuntando.jpg

:roll::roll::roll:

[basketballcat]

Winning with different franchises is an unfair standard. To many all time greats spent all of their good years in one team for that to be relevant.

At least win with a different sidekick. Duncan won without DRob later on. Duncan didn't have Manu & Parker on his first ring.

[basketballcat]

Teacher: What is 1 + 1?

Captain Intangibles: The eye test tells me it's 4. :biggums:

---------

Is the Earth flat?

Mr. I-watched-games: "Yes, of course it's flat! Look at the ground. You can clearly see that it's flat. :kobe: Put your measurement instruments away, nerd." :facepalm

[Overdrive]

At least win with a different sidekick. Duncan won without DRob later on. Duncan didn't have Manu & Parker on his first ring.

That's exactly what narrative is all about. One circumstance that couldn't be met due to career path, but is met by another makes him greater.

You cried for objective standards. That's wins, stats and accolades. And even stats could be warped depending on era.

[basketballcat]

These are exactly narrative points. So at pont 5 you found out the guy you made this alt for has no shot at GOAT under an objective criteria so you need to push some narrative? I thought you wanted to leave that out?

Then leave those out. :confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

At least win with a different sidekick. Duncan won without DRob later on. Duncan didn't have Manu & Parker on his first ring.

It's getting sad. MJ established something in Chicago. Why would he run away to prove something that wouldn't be in question until after he retired? Who runs away from a winning team that he helped establish? LeBron didn't. Let's be honest. LeBron ran from Cleveland because he couldn't establish a dynasty. And the Spurs ran him out of Miami. And GS ran him out of Cleveland the second time. Then a real conference forced him to cry for AD. Let's be real. Now running is a virtue?

[Overdrive]

Teacher: What is 1 + 1?

Captain Intangibles: The eye test tells me it's 4. :biggums:

---------

Is the Earth flat?

Mr. I-watched-games: "Yes, of course it's flat! Look at the ground. You can clearly see that it's flat. :kobe: Put your measurement instruments away, nerd." :facepalm

Teacher: What is 1+1?

basketballcat: 2, however Lebron's 1 is fancier so it's 3, but only for him.

[Overdrive]

Then leave those out. :confusedshrug:

You mean the objective criteras so we can go back to narratives agin?

[basketballcat]

That's exactly what narrative is all about. One circumstance that couldn't be met due to career path, but is met by another makes him greater.

You cried for objective standards. That's wins, stats and accolades. And even stats could be warped depending on era.

Some say, KG would have been as successful as Duncan had he been with the Spurs. Maybe. Duncan actually was successful. KG with Spurs = high probability, TD with Spurs = certainty, as it actually happened. Certainty > high probability.

Jordan had years without Pippen. All he managed is 1-9 in the playoffs. Some might say that he was too young. Magic & Duncan were alphas from the get go.

[basketballcat]

You mean the objective criteras so we can go back to narratives agin?
I listed some criteria. You are not forced to adopt them.
I

[mr4speed]

In the end, criteria is subjective and flexible.

Mikan was dominant and had 5 titles, yet he's not even top 20 in most lists.

KD has two rings, but who really counts his rings as much as even one of Hakeem's rings.

As we can see, there can be no consistent criteria.

I agree and think there cannot be one GOAT. We all agree that stats alone cannot select a GOAT. We all agree that the eye test alone cannot select a GOAT. And we seem to agree that both of these are needed BUT we all disagree as to how both of these are to be fused together and the reason is because the eye test is subjective and stats do not show context, and rings are not all equal. Ask 10 people to create a formula and you will get 10 different formulas.
Because this game involves 10 players on the court makes it impossible to measure all the variables. Even in tennis and boxing there are debates about the best ever.
Look at this thread and there are still arguments about the best in an era = Kobe vs Duncan, Bird vs Magic, Russell vs Wilt etc...
It is our nature to discuss and want to rank players and it can be educational and fun - we should not stop, but how do you ever find a formula everyone accepts? It wont happen. If you do have a formula then for fun I want to ask where do you rank Sam Jones? He has 10 rings and Russell is the player who built his confidence.

[basketballcat]

Teacher: What is 1+1?

basketballcat: 2, however Lebron's 1 is fancier so it's 3, but only for him.

My topmost criteria literally highlights Russell's 11 rings. But yeah, let's pretend GOAT conversations with number of rings as main criterion is about LeBron just so people can say "but Michael-Pippen-Phil has 6". :facepalm

[basketballcat]

It's getting sad. MJ established something in Chicago. Why would he run away to prove something that wouldn't be in question until after he retired? Who runs away from a winning team that he helped establish? LeBron didn't. Let's be honest. LeBron ran from Cleveland because he couldn't establish a dynasty. And the Spurs ran him out of Miami. And GS ran him out of Cleveland the second time. Then a real conference forced him to cry for AD. Let's be real. Now running is a virtue?

Yeah, 1-9 is sad.

[John8204]

In the end, criteria is subjective and flexible.

Mikan was dominant and had 5 titles, yet he's not even top 20 in most lists.

KD has two rings, but who really counts his rings as much as even one of Hakeem's rings.

As we can see, there can be no consistent criteria.

7 titles...5 rings and I have him in my top ten.

For me it's simple...where does a player rank amongst his contemporaries and where does he rank based on his position and criss cross the two.

Top 5 MVP finishes (2014)

15 6 1 2 4 2 Abdul-Jabbar, Kareem 70-81,84-86
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 5 2 2 2 0 Russell, Bill 58-67, 69
11 1 1 3 3 3 Bryant, Kobe 02-04,06-13
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 5 3 2 0 0 Jordan, Michael 87-93,96-98
10 4 2 1 2 1 Chamberlain, Wilt 60-62,64-68,72,73
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9 4 2 1 1 1 James, Lebron 06-14
9 3 4 1 1 0 Bird, Larry 80-88
9 3 2 4 0 0 Johnson, Magic 83-91
9 2 2 1 2 2 Duncan, Tim 98-05,07
9 2 1 2 3 1 Malone, Karl 89-92,95,97-00
9 1 1 3 1 3 Robertson, Oscar 61-68,71
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

8 2 2 1 3 0 Pettit, Bob 56-61,63,64
8 1 2 2 2 1 O'Neal, Shaquille 94,95,98,00-03,05
8 0 4 1 0 3 West, Jerry 62-66,70-72
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
7 0 1 3 1 2 Baylor, Elgin 59-63,68,69
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
6 1 1 0 2 2 Olajuwon, Hakeem 86,89,93-96
6 0 0 0 3 3 Ewing, Patrick 89,90,92-95
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 3 0 1 1 0 Malone, Moses 79,81-83,85
5 1 3 0 0 1 Durant, Kevin 10-14
5 1 2 2 0 0 Robinson, David 91,92,94-96
5 1 2 1 0 1 Garnett, Kevin 00,01,03-04,08
5 1 1 1 0 5 Erving, Julius 77, 80-83

Now some guys belong on that list but didn't register because at the time they were thought of as all-time greats. John Stockton for example and his assists per year numbers weren't valued at the time and Karl Malone was getting the votes. Stockton's numbers have aged well...Malone's haven't. John Havlicek 8-0 finals record wasn't a big deal back then...now it's a bigger deal and Cowen's MVP runs seem less impressive. Curry is still building his resume he's the "best shooter ever" but he's only got 4 finishes.

[Real Men Wear Green]

At least win with a different sidekick. Duncan won without DRob later on. Duncan didn't have Manu & Parker on his first ring.

That's just as unfair if not more. Its Jordan's job to make the Bulls trade Pippen for Mitch Richmond so that he can meet one of your arbitrary standards of greatness? That doesn't make any sense.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Some say, KG would have been as successful as Duncan had he been with the Spurs. Maybe. Duncan actually was successful. KG with Spurs = high probability, TD with Spurs = certainty, as it actually happened. Certainty > high probability.

Jordan had years without Pippen. All he managed is 1-9 in the playoffs. Some might say that he was too young. Magic & Duncan were alphas from the get go.

So he was 1-9 in the 85, 86, 87 playoffs.
In 84-85 he was a rookie putting up 27 PPG. His #2 player was Orlando Woolridge - ever hear of him?
In fact if you do some research, you'll see that Jordan's rookie NBA numbers are nearly identical to Kobe's 2008 MVP season. Except Jordan had a higher FG%. He was an alpha from Oct 1984, just didn't have a team with players like KAJ & DR sitting there ready to go, now did he?
In 85-86 he came back in late March after missing 65 games, and his trainer told him to sit out the rest of the season. Met the 40-1 Celtics in the first round and dropped the still standing record in a playoff game of 63 points. His #2 teammate was Orlando Wooldridge.

Lebron's first 2 years he didn't make the playoffs.

Once the GOAT started winning, he went 6/6 with 6 finals MVPs. Didn't have a 8 point game in 2011 and average 17 points in the finals, nor score 7 points in a 2014 playoff game vs. Indiana.

So, if 1-9 with a broken leg in the middle is your biggest argument against Jordan, none of that is as bad as getting outscored by Jason Terry who came off the bench and was 35, or 3 years later losing by a record margin to a 37 year old Tim Duncan & an air conditioner.

[basketballcat]

That's just as unfair if not more. Its Jordan's job to make the Bulls trade Pippen for Mitch Richmond so that he can meet one of your arbitrary standards of greatness? That doesn't make any sense.

That's just morphing the conversation into a strawman argument. When did I say Jordan should have left the Bulls or trade Pippen?

I said he should have won without Pippen. He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. :oldlol: He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

[basketballcat]

So he was 1-9 in the 85, 86, 87 playoffs.
In 84-85 he was a rookie putting up 27 PPG. His #2 player was Orlando Woolridge - ever hear of him?
In 85-86 he came back in late March after missing 65 games, and his trainer told him to sit out the rest of the season. Met the 40-1 Celtics in the first round and dropped the still standing record in a playoff game of 63 points. His #2 teammate was Orlando Wooldridge.

Lebron's first 2 years he didn't make the playoffs.

Once the GOAT started winning, he went 6/6 with 6 finals MVPs. Didn't have a 8 point game in 2011 and average 17 points in the finals, nor score 7 points in a 2014 playoff game vs. Indiana.

So, if 1-9 with a broken leg in the middle is your biggest argument against Jordan, none of that is as bad as getting outscored by Jason Terry who came off the bench and was 35, or 3 years later losing by a record margin to a 37 year old Tim Duncan & an air conditioner.

He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

[basketballcat]

Scoring & winning
Kareem has 6 rings too, with more points at higher FG% than Jordan. :oldlol:

KAJ only won once in the 70's and didn't do crap until Magic came along
1-9 :facepalm

[Shaquille O'Neal]

He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

I'm starting to think you have reading and/or comprehension skills. Jordan MADE Pippen who he was. Remind me again how many rings Pippen won without MJ? I sure saw his 94 Bulls get knocked out in the first round, and even with a 15 point lead in 2000 with the Blazers 'ol headache/backache Scottie couldn't get it done. See 1990 Game 7 vs. the Pistons and how great Scottie was. Same for 1998 Game 6 - Jordan won 6 despite having a questionable sidekick that was unreliable.

Arguing that Duncan and Magic were so great when they came to teams with Kareem and David Robinson is about the dumbest argument I've heard. Congrats!

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Kareem has 6 rings too, with more points at higher FG% than Jordan. :oldlol:

1-9 :facepalm

Rather go 1-9 than miss the playoffs 4 times in a career, about to be a 5th. How awful do you have to be to have 2-3 Top 75 players of all time and miss the damn 10th spot for a playin game?
You do know the 02/03 Wizards ended in 10th place - by today's rules, Jordan would never have missed the playoffs (never did as a Bull) or play-in game. Last year the Lakers were 33-49. About the game as Lebron's pathetic 22 wins / 33 losses finals record.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm starting to think you have reading and/or comprehension skills. Jordan MADE Pippen who he was. Remind me again how many rings Pippen won without MJ? I sure saw his 94 Bulls get knocked out in the first round, and even with a 15 point lead in 2000 with the Blazers 'ol headache/backache Scottie couldn't get it done. See 1990 Game 7 vs. the Pistons and how great Scottie was. Same for 1998 Game 6 - Jordan won 6 despite having a questionable sidekick that was unreliable.

Arguing that Duncan and Magic were so great when they came to teams with Kareem and David Robinson is about the dumbest argument I've heard. Congrats!
They swept the Cavs in the 1st round.

[BigShotBob]

Some say, KG would have been as successful as Duncan had he been with the Spurs. Maybe. Duncan actually was successful. KG with Spurs = high probability, TD with Spurs = certainty, as it actually happened. Certainty > high probability.

Jordan had years without Pippen. All he managed is 1-9 in the playoffs. Some might say that he was too young. Magic & Duncan were alphas from the get go.

David Robinson was already on the Spurs when Duncan got there. So was Gregg Popovich.

Scottie and Phil weren't on the Bulls when MJ got there. When they came together they won.

I think I'm seeing a pattern here.

[Real Men Wear Green]

That's just morphing the conversation into a strawman argument. When did I say Jordan should have left the Bulls or trade Pippen?

I said he should have won without Pippen. He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. :oldlol: He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

Contextless nonsense. "1-9" is the meaningless answer to James finals record. If you really wanted honest analysis you would look at who they played with who they played against and what they actually did as individuals. You are obviously just one more troll. Thanks for nothing.

[Da_Realist]

He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

You can't see there are two different contexts because you don't want to. Pippen took over a championship experienced team after being MJ's understudy. Then after he left Chicago he chose Houston with 2 HOFamers then after that blew up he chose the most talented team in the league in Portland. There is a reason Pippen didn't choose the Atlanta Hawks. Pippen knew what he was doing.

[basketballcat]

It's cute how some people try to knock down Russell based on scoring. Oh, we'll just ignore his 22.5 rpg career average? :kobe: How convenient/selective. :pimp:

Does Russell's astronomical number of rebounds make up for his less than stellar points output?
Russell: 22.5 + 15.1 = 37.6
Jordan: 6.2 + 30.1 = 36.3
:confusedshrug:

[FKAri]

He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

Magic and Duncan landed on good teams right out of the gate. In fact a major boost to MJ's legacy is that he is one of the only players to be drafted to a terrible team and franchise which he turned into a dynasty. He made the Bulls the center of the NBA world for his tenure. Can you criticize his lack of success in the early years? I guess. Everyone could have done more. Maybe one day we'll see a guy who could have made deep runs with those squads. We haven't yet.

[basketballcat]

I'm starting to think you have reading and/or comprehension skills.
Oh, the irony. :biggums:


Remind me again how many rings Pippen won without MJ?
Remind me again how many rings MJ won without Pippen and Phil?



Arguing that Duncan and Magic were so great when they came to teams with Kareem and David Robinson is about the dumbest argument I've heard.
Arguing that Jordan was so great when he had teams with Pippen and Phil is about the dumbest argument I've heard.

Oh, you don't like it if CONSISTENT logic is applied to your favourite player? :biggums:

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Kareem has 6 rings too, with more points at higher FG% than Jordan. :oldlol:



KAJ: Career 24 PPG
MJ: Career 30.1 PPG

Finals stats:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar averaged 23.5 points, 9.1 rebounds and 3.2 assists in 56 games in the NBA Finals in his career.
Michael Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists in 35 games in the NBA Finals in his career.

So where is the more points again? We go by "per game" in the NBA, not longevity.
Took KAJ 56 damn finals games to only win 6? Lebron has played in 55 and only won 4? Wow, talk about the battle of 2nd-3rd tier greats.

[basketballcat]

Rather go 1-9 than miss the playoffs 4 times in a career, about to be a 5th. How awful do you have to be to have 2-3 Top 75 players of all time and miss the damn 10th spot for a playin game?
You do know the 02/03 Wizards ended in 10th place - by today's rules, Jordan would never have missed the playoffs (never did as a Bull) or play-in game. Last year the Lakers were 33-49. About the game as Lebron's pathetic 22 wins / 33 losses finals record.

On the three years that Jordan "made the playoffs" without Pippen or Phil, he had a losing regular season record on all 3 seasons. :oldlol:

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Oh, the irony. :biggums:


Remind me again how many rings MJ won without Pippen and Phil?



Arguing that Jordan was so great when he had teams with Pippen and Phil is about the dumbest argument I've heard.

Oh, you don't like it if CONSISTENT logic is applied to your favourite player? :biggums:

Phil Jackson ran Tex Winter's triangle offense; sure didn't dribble the damn ball himself by that point. Up next you'll give accolades to someone in the front office for someone winning a title.
I'll argue that Pippen COST Jordan the opportunity in 1990 with his 2/10 shooting, and Jordan did win 1998 Game 6 with "backache" Pippen giving him 10 points.

But, LeGED has always had 2 all star side kicks (Love, Irving,Wade, Bosh) and had teammates outscore him in the finals. 17 PPG 2011 Finals? This is your GOAT?:oldlol:

[basketballcat]

KAJ: Career 24 PPG
MJ: Career 30.1 PPG

Kareem: 38,387 pts 55.9% on FG%
Jordan: 32,292 pts on 49.7% FG%

Ouch.

Can you work out why Jordan has higher ppg? It's pretty simple but maybe it might take you a while. :roll:

[Hey Yo]

I'm starting to think you have reading and/or comprehension skills. Jordan MADE Pippen who he was. Remind me again how many rings Pippen won without MJ? I sure saw his 94 Bulls get knocked out in the first round, and even with a 15 point lead in 2000 with the Blazers 'ol headache/backache Scottie couldn't get it done. See 1990 Game 7 vs. the Pistons and how great Scottie was. Same for 1998 Game 6 - Jordan won 6 despite having a questionable sidekick that was unreliable.

Arguing that Duncan and Magic were so great when they came to teams with Kareem and David Robinson is about the dumbest argument I've heard. Congrats!

So why didn't MJ make more Pippen's before or after Scottie arrived?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

On the three years that Jordan "made the playoffs" without Pippen or Phil, he had a losing regular season record on all 3 seasons. :oldlol:

6 rings, 6 FMVP, 10 scoring titles, 3 steals titles, 5x league MVP, 2x Olympic Gold Medalist, 1xNCAA ring
vs.
4 rings, 4 FMVP, 1 scoring title, 1 assist title, 4x league MVP, Bronze medal, can't spell college.

There's a Hall of Fame player dividing the difference between the two - that's how wide it is. There's a reason 80% of people still have Jordan as the GOAT.

[basketballcat]

If you really wanted honest analysis you would look at who they played with who they played against and what they actually did as individuals.
Oh, is that what you want to do? Somebody beat a 73-win team. In the Finals, he led in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. Yes, all of it. Also had higher FG% than Kyrie, Steph, & Klay. :lebronamazed:

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Kareem: 38,387 pts 55.9% on FG%
Jordan: 32,292 pts on 49.7% FG%

Ouch.

Can you work out why Jordan has higher ppg? It's pretty simple but maybe it might take you a while. :roll:

Better scorer? Better shooter? KAJ is a center; his average was only 55.9%? Man at 7 feet he sure missed a lot of shots.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Oh, is that what you want to do? Somebody beat a 73-win team. In the Finals, he led in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. Yes, all of it. Also had higher FG% than Kyrie, Steph, & Klay. :lebronamazed:

The same 73-9 team that went 15-9 in the playoffs? The one with a hurt Steph? The same team that got down 3-1 vs. OKC? Team that petered out in the playoffs?
LeGED had a sidekick that scored 41 points on 71% in one of those games. Remind me - what finals series did Jordan have with a sidedkick that only scored 2 PPG less than he did for an entire 7 game series? "I need moar help!"

Real 2016 MVP : Kyrie Irving, and it's not even close.

[basketballcat]

Magic and Duncan landed on good teams right out of the gate.
Spurs in 96-97, year before Duncan: 20-62
Spurs in 97-98, Duncan's rookie year: 56-26
In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team.

Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance. :facepalm

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Spurs in 96-97, year before Duncan: 20-62
Spurs in 97-98, Duncan's rookie year: 56-26
In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team.

Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance. :facepalm

I agree here, which is why I have Duncan 3-4 spots above Lebron. He's 5/6 in the finals, and instead of coming in the league and missing the playoffs his first 2 years he got a ring and elevated his team.

[basketballcat]

Real 2016 MVP : Kyrie Irving, and it's not even close.
Oh, so the guy who led BOTH teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks (yes, ALL of it) doesn't deserve Finals MVP. :biggums: Had higher FG% than all the other stars on BOTH teams too. :pimp:

And you say "it's not even close". On that we agree. :yaohappy:

[basketballcat]

Better scorer? Better shooter? KAJ is a center; his average was only 55.9%? Man at 7 feet he sure missed a lot of shots.

Kareem: 38,387 pts 55.9% on FG%
Jordan: 32,292 pts on 49.7% FG%

Ouch.

Can you work out % FGs missed? It's pretty simple but maybe it might take you a while. :lol

[Hey Yo]

The same 73-9 team that went 15-9 in the playoffs? The one with a hurt Steph? The same team that got down 3-1 vs. OKC? Team that petered out in the playoffs?
LeGED had a sidekick that scored 41 points on 71% in one of those games. Remind me - what finals series did Jordan have with a sidedkick that only scored 2 PPG less than he did for an entire 7 game series? "I need moar help!"

MJ had sidekickS that held Utah to 54pts in one of the games in the 98 series.

[Overdrive]

My topmost criteria literally highlights Russell's 11 rings. But yeah, let's pretend GOAT conversations with number of rings as main criterion is about LeBron just so people can say "but Michael-Pippen-Phil has 6". :facepalm

Didn't take long to show your agenda.

[Airupthere]

Didn't take long to show your agenda.

It was obvious from the opening post lol

[basketballcat]

Didn't take long to show your agenda.

Ah yes, because people are ssooooo sensitive about protecting their selective narratives. :confusedshrug:

[mr4speed]

Spurs in 96-97, year before Duncan: 20-62
Spurs in 97-98, Duncan's rookie year: 56-26
In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team.

Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance. :facepalm

Context is needed here = the year before Duncan arrived, Robinson only played in 6 games due to season ending injury and Sean Elliott only played in only 39 games that season due to injury also.

[Da_Realist]

Context is needed here = the year before Duncan arrived, Robinson only played in 6 games due to season ending injury and Sean Elliott only played in only 39 games that season due to injury also.

If he wasn't allergic to context he wouldn't have started this thread.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Context is needed here = the year before Duncan arrived, Robinson only played in 6 games due to season ending injury and Sean Elliott only played in only 39 games that season due to injury also.

OP is all about presenting the party of history that supports his agenda and hoping people forget the details that eye out. Typical troll crap.

[Gudo]

Garbage

[basketballcat]

Context is needed here = the year before Duncan arrived, Robinson only played in 6 games due to season ending injury and Sean Elliott only played in only 39 games that season due to injury also.

Oh, we're pretending that I didn't write this?: :kobe:

In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team.

Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance.

[basketballcat]

If he wasn't allergic to context he wouldn't have started this thread.

Oh, we're pretending that I didn't write this?: :kobe:

In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team.

Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance.

[basketballcat]

OP is all about presenting the party of history that supports his agenda and hoping people forget the details that eye out. Typical troll crap.

Oh, we're pretending that I didn't write this?: :kobe:

In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team.

Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance.

[mr4speed]

Oh, we're pretending that I didn't write this?: :kobe:

In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team.

Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance.

Duncan was great indeed but that 36 game turnaround was not only because of his presence. D- Rob and Elliott the prior year with all those missed games is why they only won 20 games. People forget.

[basketballcat]

Duncan was great indeed but that 36 game turnaround was not only because of his presence. D- Rob and Elliott the prior year with all those missed games is why they only won 20 games. People forget.
Where did I say "that 36 game turnaround was not only because of his presence"? :confusedshrug: You make it seem like I did and completely ignored the context: "In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team."

My actual sarcastic point is "Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance." in response to the context "Duncan landed on good teams right out of the gate."

And you people pretend like I'm the one putting things out of context. :kobe:

[basketballcat]

MJ is the only goat-level athlete that is also a goat-level shooter
... that is a subpar 3-point "shooter". And no, he is not just subpar relative to today's standards. His 3pt% was subpar relative to his own era.

Even his overall FG% is inferior to Kareem and LeBron. :confusedshrug:

[Overdrive]

Ah yes, because people are ssooooo sensitive about protecting their selective narratives. :confusedshrug:

You're the one who had to insert selective narratives to even mention Lebron.

[mr4speed]

Where did I say "that 36 game turnaround was not only because of his presence"? :confusedshrug: You make it seem like I did and completely ignored the context: "In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team."

My actual sarcastic point is "Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance." in response to the context "Duncan landed on good teams right out of the gate."

And you people pretend like I'm the one putting things out of context. :kobe:

You did not "say" anything about the injuries the prior year. Listing the games won and lost, before and after Duncan arrived = I felt needed context. Like I said, people forget.

[3ba11]

.
Thought process of a Lebron fan:



1) Look up MJ's career on basketball-reference

2) Raise eyebrows at how little MJ needed to win 2 three-peats

3) Instead of praising MJ for winning with less like the hated triangle offense or a secondary producer & lane-clogger like Pippen, they say he "needed" these things (bizarro world).

Instead of praising MJ for achieving GOAT stats within an offense that was designed to suppress the star player, they pretend the triangle was somehow a benefit to his dominance/production rate.



Ultimately, Lebron will be 1/4 with AD just like he was 1/4 with Love, and 1/4 with Wade (except the Allen miracle), so 20 years of longevity confirms that Lebron isn't capable of a dynasty, 3-peat or 6 chips with any lineup, aka objectively inferior to MJ.. His lack of expert jumpshooting and skillset of abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position imposes spot-up roles that prevents the teammate development, fits or strategic capacity/coaching to win organically (via chemistry), thus requiring super-teams (talent-based winning).

[FKAri]

Where did I say "that 36 game turnaround was not only because of his presence"? :confusedshrug: You make it seem like I did and completely ignored the context: "In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team."

My actual sarcastic point is "Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance." in response to the context "Duncan landed on good teams right out of the gate."

And you people pretend like I'm the one putting things out of context. :kobe:

I didn't say they were great teams. They were all good teams or teams with good pieces. The superstars took them over the top. MJ arrived on a much worse team than a guy like Duncan, Bird or Magic is my point.

[3ba11]

MJ arrived on a much worse team than a guy like Duncan, Bird or Magic is my point.


And he started over from scratch for a 2nd time in 87' after the front office got rid of the 1st and 2nd options from the horrible 86' team (Woolridge, Gervin), so Jordan's 87' cast was worse than 85'.

Ultimately, MJ was forced to carry 8 seeds in the playoffs (bad teams), while Lebron avoided the 8 vs 1 matchup or bad playoff teams by waiting 3 years to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran, high seed with all-star centers and HOF coaching.. aka people make a mistake by comparing Jordan's Year 1 eight seeds vs Lebron's Year 3 high seeds

[FKAri]

And he started over from scratch for a 2nd time in 87' after the front office got rid of the 1st and 2nd options from the horrible 86' team (Woolridge, Gervin), so Jordan's 87' cast was worse than 85'.

Ultimately, MJ was forced to carry 8 seeds in the playoffs (bad teams), while Lebron avoided the 8 vs 1 matchup or bad playoff teams by waiting 3 years to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran, high seed with all-star centers and HOF coaching.. aka people make a mistake by comparing Jordan's Year 1 eight seeds vs Lebron's Year 3 high seeds

1-9

[basketballcat]

I didn't say they were great teams. They were all good teams or teams with good pieces. The superstars took them over the top. MJ arrived on a much worse team than a guy like Duncan, Bird or Magic is my point.
Bulls
84 (no Jordan): 27-55, missed playoffs
85 (+ Jordan): 38-44, 1-3 first round exit
88 (+ Pippen): 50-32, 1-4 second round exit
90 (+ Phil head coach): 55-27, 3-4 conf finals exit

It's very clear that Pippen and Phil had as much impact as Jordan. The marketing narrative of "The Great Jordan and his friends" is clearly a myth. Put Kobe, Kawhi, Durant, LeBron, and a host of others on that Bulls team in lieau of Jordan and you will probably get similar results, if not better.

Compare that to Duncan. Immediately made the Spurs a contender. Won without DRob. Won without Manu & Parker. Hard carried the Spurs in 2003.

[basketballcat]

Ultimately, MJ was forced to carry 8 seeds in the playoffs
Bulls
84 (no Jordan): 27-55, missed playoffs
85 (+ Jordan): 38-44, 1-3 first round exit
88 (+ Pippen): 50-32, 1-4 second round exit
90 (+ Phil head coach): 55-27, 3-4 conf finals exit

It's very clear that Pippen and Phil had as much impact as Jordan. The marketing narrative of "The Great Jordan and his friends" is clearly a myth. Put Kobe, Kawhi, Durant, LeBron, and a host of others on that Bulls team in lieu of Jordan and you will probably get similar results, if not better.

Compare that to Duncan. Immediately made the Spurs a contender. Won without DRob. Won without Manu & Parker. Hard carried the Spurs in 2003.

[Gudo]

Bulls
84 (no Jordan): 27-55, missed playoffs
85 (+ Jordan): 38-44, 1-3 first round exit
88 (+ Pippen): 50-32, 1-4 second round exit
90 (+ Phil head coach): 55-27, 3-4 conf finals exit

It's very clear that Pippen and Phil had as much impact as Jordan. The marketing narrative of "The Great Jordan and his friends" is clearly a myth. Put Kobe, Kawhi, Durant, LeBron, and a host of others on that Bulls team in lieau of Jordan and you will probably get similar results, if not better.

Compare that to Duncan. Immediately made the Spurs a contender. Won without DRob. Won without Manu & Parker. Hard carried the Spurs in 2003.

So simply the addition of Pippen by itself led to a 10-win increase from 87-88 even if rookie Pip played only 20mpg and averaged 7ppg? That is a huge and efficient impact indeed.

[basketballcat]

So simply the addition of Pippen by itself led to a 10-win increase from 87-88 even if rookie Pip played only 20mpg and averaged 7ppg? That is a huge and efficient impact indeed.

1-9 :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

Bulls
84 (no Jordan): 27-55, missed playoffs
85 (+ Jordan): 38-44, 1-3 first round exit
88 (+ Pippen): 50-32, 1-4 second round exit
90 (+ Phil head coach): 55-27, 3-4 conf finals exit





The bolded above shows the difference between rookie Jordan and the GOAT (35/6/6 and DPOY Jordan)

Here's a good way to understand how good the GOAT was in 1988 - Jordan's 35/6/6 dwarfs the next-best-scoring DPOY, which was Hakeem's 27 ppg






carried the Spurs in 2003.


That's how all of MJ's rings were

[basketballcat]

That's how all of MJ's rings were
Oh, let's have a look see. In the 96 Finals, Pippen led the Bulls in assists, steals, and blocks. Rodman had absurd rebound numbers. Must be nice to have all the other aspects of the game taken care of. Of course, Jordan led the Bulls ... in turnovers.

1-9 :confusedshrug:

Actually, Kemp had equal or better :lebronamazed: production than Jordan.
points: 23.3 Kemp, 27.3 Jordan
rebounds: 10.0 Kemp, 5.3 Jordan
assists: 2.2 Kemp, 4.2 Jordan
steals: 1.0 Kemp, 1.7 Jordan
blocks: 2.0 Kemp, 0.2 Jordan
FG%: 55.1% Kemp, 41.5% Jordan (yikes! :biggums::kobe:)

[basketballcat]

I'll leave you eye test gang with the below. Ciao. :yaohappy:

---------

Teacher: What is 1 + 1?

Captain Intangibles: The eye test tells me it's 4. :kobe:

---------

Is the Earth flat?

Mr. I-watched-games: "Yes, of course it's flat! Look at the ground. You can clearly see that it's flat. Put your measurement instruments away, nerd." :biggums:

[Axe]

My topmost criteria literally highlights Russell's 11 rings. But yeah, let's pretend GOAT conversations with number of rings as main criterion is about LeBron just so people can say "but Michael-Pippen-Phil has 6". :facepalm
Yeah but it's also painfully obvious how you had to omit a certain criteria in your own op where you already know that he tops amongst the atgs.

I troll about him because he has immature fans who are bran-hating retards but you can't deny that the bald one still has an unrivalled total of six finals mvps; only king kong lebron comes second with four (although he got one of them during the 2020 disney bubble).

[basketballcat]

Yeah but it's also painfully obvious how you had to omit a certain criteria in your own op where you already know that he tops amongst the atgs.

I troll about him because he has immature fans who are bran-hating retards but you can't deny that the bald one still has an unrivalled total of six finals mvps; only king kong lebron comes second with four (although he got one of them during the 2020 disney bubble).
Let's not forget when the The Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award was first given out.

[3ba11]

Oh, let's have a look see. In the 96 Finals, Pippen led the Bulls in assists, steals, and blocks. Rodman had absurd rebound numbers. Must be nice to have all the other aspects of the game taken care of. Of course, Jordan led the Bulls ... in turnovers.

1-9 :confusedshrug:

Actually, Kemp had equal or better :lebronamazed: production than Jordan.
points: 23.3 Kemp, 27.3 Jordan
rebounds: 10.0 Kemp, 5.3 Jordan
assists: 2.2 Kemp, 4.2 Jordan
steals: 1.0 Kemp, 1.7 Jordan
blocks: 2.0 Kemp, 0.2 Jordan
FG%: 55.1% Kemp, 41.5% Jordan (yikes! :biggums::kobe:)



Career Finals


Lebron...... 28 on 49%
Kyrie....'.... 28 on 47%
AD............ 25 on 57%

MJ............. 34 on 48%
Pippen....... 19 on 42%


Only Lebron's sidekicks destroyed league MVP's like Curry, Dirk or Jokic

People don't realize that Lebron and Magic are passers that need dominant scorers like Kareem, AD, Wade and Kyrie to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs (11, 16', 20')

Otoh, expert jumpshooters and great scorers can win with less help and secondary producers at sidekick like Wiggins, Pippen, Terry, Lowry, Pau, or Klay

[Axe]

That wasn't my point tho. :confusedshrug: :oldlol:

I was talking about who's gotten the most of them, not anything else. Might as well say that the asg trophy was named under kobe bryant as well (for obvious reasons) if that's the case. :hammerhead:

[Axe]

Career Finals


Lebron...... 28 on 49%
Kyrie....'.... 25 on 57%
AD............ 25 on 57%

MJ............. 34 on 48%
Pippen....... 19 on 42%


Only Lebron's sidekicks destroyed league MVP's like Curry, Dirk or Jokic

People don't realize that Lebron and Magic are passers that need dominant scorers like Kareem, AD, Wade and Kyrie to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs (11, 16', 20')
1-9

[3ba11]

1-9


You quoted the wrong numbers because Kyrie's Finals average is the same as Lebron (28)

Lebron is a passer like Magic that needs great scoring to pass too.. Otoh, a great scorer like Kobe didn't need any passing help, while MJ needed the least among 90's 1st options

And show me where Lebron has examples of teammate development into significant contributors, or good chemistry, or high strategic capacity (#1 offense or high-assist team)??.. That's why he needs so much help... His abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position imposes spot-up roles that stalls development, fits or strategic capacity/coaching.

[basketballcat]

Career Finals


Lebron...... 28 on 49%
Kyrie....'.... 28 on 47%
AD............ 25 on 57%

MJ............. 34 on 48%
Pippen....... 19 on 42%


Only Lebron's sidekicks destroyed league MVP's like Curry, Dirk or Jokic

People don't realize that Lebron and Magic are passers that need dominant scorers like Kareem, AD, Wade and Kyrie to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs (11, 16', 20')

Otoh, expert jumpshooters and great scorers can win with less help and secondary producers at sidekick like Wiggins, Pippen, Terry, Lowry, Pau, or Klay

I like how you pretend like rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, FG%, and turnovers somehow don't exist. :kobe:

[Da_Realist]

Going by stats, 1988 MJ might be considered the most dominant force in the modern era. But that wasn't even the best version of MJ. Winning basketball doesn't mean be the most productive you can be. MJ was absolutely more dominant with less stats. Calculator boys can't understand that. They see unimpressive numbers and assume he was unimpressive without taking into account that great players routinely pull back in order to build chemistry and win. More dominant with less production. That's why it's hard for calculator boys to understand when all they have are stat sheets 30 years later.

Didn't do doesn't not mean couldn't do. MJ could have gotten more rebounds and more assists. He didn't. They won the way he did it. 6 titles. Which is something everyone has been chasing ever since. LeBron tries to be as productive as possible and it has gotten him a lot of career stats and a lot of calculator fanboys. But he hasn't won as much despite hopping around and teaming up with the best players in the league. He has not built any team from the ground up. He has not maintained any chemistry. He forms teams like Voltron and when they get figured out, he runs away to form another Voltron. It is impossible to build a dynasty when one player wants to be as stat productive as possible.

And then my own personal opinion... LeBron's game is boring precisely because he controls every possession. Boring watching him pound the ball for 20 secs before passing to someone at the 3pt line. There is not as much cutting or five man chemistry. That's my own personal preference but I believe his style of play has cratered national interest. Basketball is no longer must watch tv. No one talks about it the next day. Maybe they're too busy perusing over the stat sheet with their morning coffee. But the game is not interesting at all. What are the ratings for LeBron games like? MJ's Bulls were must watch tv. Kobe Shaq must watch. Curry's Warriors must watch. I don't believe anyone cancels plans to see LeBron grab 8 uncontested rebounds that fell in his lap. Or watch him resting past the 3pt line when he doesn't have the ball. Maybe the ratings will prove me wrong.

[basketballcat]

Going by stats, 1988 MJ might be considered the most dominant force in the modern era. But that wasn't even the best version of MJ. Winning basketball doesn't mean be the most productive you can be. MJ was absolutely more dominant with less stats. Calculator boys can't understand that. They see unimpressive numbers and assume he was unimpressive without taking into account that great players routinely pull back in order to build chemistry and win. More dominant with less production. That's why it's hard for calculator boys to understand when all they have are stat sheets 30 years later.

Didn't do doesn't not mean couldn't do. MJ could have gotten more rebounds and more assists. He didn't. They won the way he did it. 6 titles. Which is something everyone has been chasing ever since. LeBron tries to be as productive as possible and it has gotten him a lot of career stats and a lot of calculator fanboys. But he hasn't won as much despite hopping around and teaming up with the best players in the league. He has not built any team from the ground up. He has not maintained any chemistry. He forms teams like Voltron and when they get figured out, he runs away to form another Voltron. It is impossible to build a dynasty when one player wants to be as stat productive as possible.

And then my own personal opinion... LeBron's game is boring precisely because he controls every possession. Boring watching him pound the ball for 20 secs before passing to someone at the 3pt line. There is not as much cutting or five man chemistry. That's my own personal preference but I believe his style of play has cratered national interest. Basketball is no longer must watch tv. No one talks about it the next day. Maybe they're too busy perusing over the stat sheet with their morning coffee. But the game is not interesting at all. What are the ratings for LeBron games like? MJ's Bulls were must watch tv. Kobe Shaq must watch. Curry's Warriors must watch. I don't believe anyone cancels plans to see LeBron grab 8 uncontested rebounds that fell in his lap. Or watch him resting past the 3pt line when he doesn't have the ball. Maybe the ratings will prove me wrong.

Lots of words, very little numbers. But appreciate you making the effort to actually walk us through your thought process.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Da Realist - Very well said, and spot on. There's a reason the 2020 NBA Finals was the all-time lowest watched series as most people considered it scrimmage play (no home fans, no travel). On top of that the Lakers & Clippers had agreed with a month to go that they'd "leave to go protest"...then they were told "you won't get paid if you don't stay". So basically you had a bunch of multi-millionaire young black men stuck at Walt Disney world and wanted to go. Hell Skip to my Lou wasn't allowed back due to going out and getting chicken wings. Which is why 2020 has the biggest * of any finals ever.
Now compare that to the highest rated ever, the 1998 finals. There's a reason everyone watched - I was almost 25 and watched it live - breathtaking stuff.

3ball - don't waste your time with "basketball stat" - he's a LeGED homer with selective reasoning that is flawed. I'm sure he's an 18 year old kid that believes everything FS1 (Nick Wright / Shannon Sharpe) tell him.

[basketballcat]

Teacher: What is 1 + 1?

Captain Intangibles: The eye test tells me it's 4. :biggums:

---------

Is the Earth flat?

Mr. I-watched-games: "Yes, of course it's flat! Look at the ground. You can clearly see that it's flat. Put your measurement instruments away, nerd." :crazysam:

[Axe]

TheGoatest aka expansionera is officially back, guys...

[Full Court]

Bottom line: GOAT is completely subjective. Everyone has their own criteria. Everyone weights their criteria differently based on how they arbitrarily decide to do it. There is not, and never will be, consistent GOAT criteria.


That said, Jordan has been the consensus GOAT by overwhelming majority for decades, and he still is. Deal with it.

[Da_Realist]

Da Realist - Very well said, and spot on. There's a reason the 2020 NBA Finals was the all-time lowest watched series as most people considered it scrimmage play (no home fans, no travel). On top of that the Lakers & Clippers had agreed with a month to go that they'd "leave to go protest"...then they were told "you won't get paid if you don't stay". So basically you had a bunch of multi-millionaire young black men stuck at Walt Disney world and wanted to go. Hell Skip to my Lou wasn't allowed back due to going out and getting chicken wings. Which is why 2020 has the biggest * of any finals ever.
Now compare that to the highest rated ever, the 1998 finals. There's a reason everyone watched - I was almost 25 and watched it live - breathtaking stuff.

3ball - don't waste your time with "basketball stat" - he's a LeGED homer with selective reasoning that is flawed. I'm sure he's an 18 year old kid that believes everything FS1 (Nick Wright / Shannon Sharpe) tell him.

The 2020 Finals...with no home crowds and partial teams played months after stopping the season... ehh... Lakers wouldn't have won sh*t without stopping the momentum of the season and giving them months to recuperate.

The reason 1998 was exciting was because the ride was almost over and everyone was wondering if we'd ever see someone knock MJ off the throne. It was built on the back of a decade of the Bulls knocking off all challengers. One loss would ruin the perfect picture. One more win would top Magic's five championships of the 80's. The 98 team was by far the most vulnerable both physically and in terms of team chemistry. Pippen missed much of the season. Rodman was starting to be distracted. They got rid of Jason Caffey. They let Brian Williams go. But MJ was there every game yet because of this he was a little worn by the time the playoffs rolled around. No load management at 35 years old. We saw him squeeze everything out over the season and wondered if he had more to give in the playoffs. They were less than a quarter away from being knocked out by the Pacers. Then they faced a repeat challenger for the first time but this time without homecourt advantage. We wondered, what more could MJ do? He had the sick game the year before. How could he top that? We got our answer in Game 6. Pippen was hurt and MJ needing to carry the load again. Doing what was needed to keep the team close through 3 and a half quarters. Then he closed out the series in epic fashion. Everyone saw it and was amazed. I don't believe anyone cared what the stat sheet showed because we saw him leave his heart on the floor. That was it. MJ died that day with his arms raised holding up 6 fingers. The guy that came back to play for the Wizards a couple of years later wasn't the real MJ. He was Rakim in the late 90's -- a little past his time. Looked like him, played like some version of him but wasn't really him.

Only when that memory dies along with all the people that watched it does LeBron and his stat nerds have a fair chance to change the narrative.

[basketballcat]

Let's have a look at two popular narratives:
1. 90s was physical, not much fouls called
2. LeBron flops to get calls

Let's look at 98 & 2020 Finals, specifically FTA.

Jordan 70
Malone 38

LeBron 42
Butlet 53

Oh dear me, facts don't fit the narratives. :lebronamazed:

Quick, eye test! For the love of God, eye test! :lol:oldlol:

[Full Court]

Let's have a look at two popular narratives:
1. 90s was physical, not much fouls called
2. LeBron flops to get calls

Let's look at 98 & 2020 Finals, specifically FTA.

Jordan 70
Malone 38

LeBron 42
Butlet 53

Oh dear me, facts don't fit the narratives. :lebronamazed:

Quick, eye test! For the love of God, eye test! :lol:oldlol:

Inside the mind of a Bronie fluffer: "Bu-bu-bu-but Jordan CAN'T be the GOAT be-be-be-because he shot more free throws than Malone!!!!"

:roll: So much desperation.

[basketballcat]

Inside the mind of a Bronie fluffer: "Bu-bu-bu-but Jordan CAN'T be the GOAT be-be-be-because he shot more free throws than Malone!!!!"

:roll: So much desperation.

11 rings, 5 MVPs. :violin:

6 MVPs, 6 rings, 2nd most points at higher FG% than Pippen's side kick. :basketball

1-9. :kobe:

[rmt]

That said, Jordan has been the consensus GOAT by overwhelming majority for decades, and he still is. Deal with it.

I'm no MJ fan (can't stand the personality) - been watching the NBA since 1977 and in that time, there hasn't been such dominance from a player and such FEAR in other players.

[3ba11]

The OP was kind of long, so we can go 1 by 1.. What point should I address first OP

[Shaquille O'Neal]

The 2020 Finals...with no home crowds and partial teams played months after stopping the season... ehh... Lakers wouldn't have won sh*t without stopping the momentum of the season and giving them months to recuperate.

The reason 1998 was exciting was because the ride was almost over and everyone was wondering if we'd ever see someone knock MJ off the throne. It was built on the back of a decade of the Bulls knocking off all challengers. One loss would ruin the perfect picture. One more win would top Magic's five championships of the 80's. The 98 team was by far the most vulnerable both physically and in terms of team chemistry. Pippen missed much of the season. Rodman was starting to be distracted. They got rid of Jason Caffey. They let Brian Williams go. But MJ was there every game yet because of this he was a little worn by the time the playoffs rolled around. No load management at 35 years old. We saw him squeeze everything out over the season and wondered if he had more to give in the playoffs. They were less than a quarter away from being knocked out by the Pacers. Then they faced a repeat challenger for the first time but this time without homecourt advantage. We wondered, what more could MJ do? He had the sick game the year before. How could he top that? We got our answer in Game 6. Pippen was hurt and MJ needing to carry the load again. Doing what was needed to keep the team close through 3 and a half quarters. Then he closed out the series in epic fashion. Everyone saw it and was amazed. I don't believe anyone cared what the stat sheet showed because we saw him leave his heart on the floor. That was it. MJ died that day with his arms raised holding up 6 fingers. The guy that came back to play for the Wizards a couple of years later wasn't the real MJ. He was Rakim in the late 90's -- a little past his time. Looked like him, played like some version of him but wasn't really him.

Only when that memory dies along with all the people that watched it does LeBron and his stat nerds have a fair chance to change the narrative.


What a fantastic post that truly captures the essence of his 6th. I'm not going to lie - For the 1997 & 98 years I was rooting for Malone & Stockton to win - just got sick of Jordan beating everybody every year. Was a big Jerry Sloan fan as well. But man, the performance MJ put on that night was as good as it could possibly get. 45 out of his team's 87 with the from-behind game / series winner with 5 seconds left. No bigger stage, no bigger moment, no bigger closer you'll find than Mr. Ice Water veins.

[ImKobe]

What a fantastic post that truly captures the essence of his 6th. I'm not going to lie - For the 1997 & 98 years I was rooting for Malone & Stockton to win - just got sick of Jordan beating everybody every year. Was a big Jerry Sloan fan as well. But man, the performance MJ put on that night was as good as it could possibly get. 45 out of his team's 87 with the from-behind game / series winner with 5 seconds left. No bigger stage, no bigger moment, no bigger closer you'll find than Mr. Ice Water veins.

Forcing the TO down 1 with 18 to go and hitting the series winner is still the greatest sequence by any player in NBA history. Jordan had everything and there's no way a lesser player with lesser achievements could be put on that same level.

I'm sure people are over it 25 years later but Jordan's GOAT case is as strong now as it was back then and if anything is more solidified now as so many greats since then have fallen well short of his achievements.

[basketballcat]

Forcing the TO down 1 with 18 to go and hitting the series winner is still the greatest sequence by any player in NBA history. Jordan had everything and there's no way a lesser player with lesser achievements could be put on that same level.

I'm sure people are over it 25 years later but Jordan's GOAT case is as strong now as it was back then and if anything is more solidified now as so many greats since then have fallen well short of his achievements.

You might want to re-watch that. Pippen Lite wasn't called for a clear offensive foul on that pushoff. Then Harper seals the ring with lockdown D on Stockton.

Them 70 FTs gifted by the referees, sure did help.

[Phoenix]

Bottom line: GOAT is completely subjective. Everyone has their own criteria. Everyone weights their criteria differently based on how they arbitrarily decide to do it. There is not, and never will be, consistent GOAT criteria.


That said, Jordan has been the consensus GOAT by overwhelming majority for decades, and he still is. Deal with it.

Out of 9 pages on this thread, thousands of topics across this forum and others, playground and barbershop arguments.....that's pretty much all anyone reasonably should be able to deduce from this. This is probably like version 5.0 of the NBA based on rules, so comparing someone who played in 2.0 against someone who played in 4.0 30 years apart is fairly pointless.

[Da_Realist]

What a fantastic post that truly captures the essence of his 6th. I'm not going to lie - For the 1997 & 98 years I was rooting for Malone & Stockton to win - just got sick of Jordan beating everybody every year. Was a big Jerry Sloan fan as well. But man, the performance MJ put on that night was as good as it could possibly get. 45 out of his team's 87 with the from-behind game / series winner with 5 seconds left. No bigger stage, no bigger moment, no bigger closer you'll find than Mr. Ice Water veins.

What's even more beautiful is he guaranteed it before the season started.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpJEHw-Wzlc&t=769s

The confidence of someone who knew how to win and was willing to do anything to get there. That's what a leader looks like. Setting the expectation despite all the drama the team was dealing with. By far the hardest championship but the promise was delivered. Fade to black... The next time we see him was a few years later in a teal uniform on some gawdawful team on the East Coast playing to win but knowing he wouldn't.

[bizil]

For my GOAT criteria, I factor:

Solo accolades
Team Accolades
Numbers
Peak-prime Value
Longevity being great
Impact on the league (being one of the faces of the league, redefining a position, rules change because of the player, etc.)

When u combined all these factors, it's comes down to MJ, Bron, and Cap as the top 3 GOAT. They have the BEST BLEND of all these facets. For those saying Bron as passed MJ by as the GOAT, MJ still has the edge FOR SURE in terms of solo accolades, team accolades, and impact on the league.

MJ's edge in terms of MVP's and Finals MVPs HOLD MORE WEIGHT than Bron's edge in All Star Games or All NBA teams. Cause MJ has a shit ton of those too!

From there, MJ is WIDELY REGARDED as the GOAT of American team sports! Not just the GOAT of the NBA. So if Bron is the GOAT of the NBA, THAT MEANS he's the GOAT of American team sports. In my opinion, Bron is in the top 3 with MJ and Brady as of now.

[3ba11]

Here's the way that we know Jordan is GOAT - he was the only guy that had to deal with actual abuse during games because he was so good.

For example, I don't remember Bill Russell saying that he tried to hurt Wilt every time Wilt touched the ball..... ONLY JORDAN had to deal with legit physical abuse - Salley, Isiah and Rodman said many times on camera that the gameplan was to hurt jordan when he drove the lane.

Salley and Rodman demonstrate the forearm shiver on camera to show what they mean.. This isn't an exaggeration - here's Rodman, Salley and Isiah saying that the entire gameplan was to HURT jordan - this is why Jordan will never forgive Isiah (the ringleader):

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zWJHnzvF_r4

Nuff said... THAT'S why mj hates isiah (the ringleader of the gang attack) and this fear that he instilled ("we must hurt him to stop him") is why he's GOAT..

His GOAT accolades, stats and winning as the best player only validated the fear that he instilled and the GOAT performance that we saw with our own eyes.

[basketballcat]

Here's the way that we know Jordan is GOAT - he was the only guy that had to deal with actual abuse during games because he was so good.

For example, I don't remember Bill Russell saying that he tried to hurt Wilt every time Wilt touched the ball..... ONLY JORDAN had to deal with legit physical abuse - Salley, Isiah and Rodman said many times on camera that the gameplan was to hurt jordan when he drove the lane.

Salley and Rodman demonstrate the forearm shiver on camera to show what they mean.. This isn't an exaggeration - here's Rodman, Salley and Isiah saying that the entire gameplan was to HURT jordan - this is why Jordan will never forgive Isiah (the ringleader):

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zWJHnzvF_r4

Nuff said... THAT'S why mj hates isiah (the ringleader of the gang attack) and this fear that he instilled ("we must hurt him to stop him") is why he's GOAT..

His GOAT accolades, stats and winning as the best player only validated the fear that he instilled and the GOAT performance that we saw with our own eyes.

Let's have a look at two popular narratives:
1. 90s was physical, not much fouls called
2. LeBron flops to get calls

Let's look at 98 & 2020 Finals, specifically FTA.

Jordan 70 :kobe:
Malone 38

LeBron 42
Butler 53

Oh dear me, facts don't fit the narratives. :lebronamazed:

Quick, eye test! For the love of God, eye test! :milton

Not only are the narratives on shaky ground, it appears Pippen's side kick got preferential treatment. LeBron is exactly the opposite, with Butler getting more foul calls. :violin:

[kawhileonard2]

#1 all time in Titles, Finals MVP's and League MVP's

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total

[basketballcat]

#1 all time in Titles, Finals MVP's and League MVP's

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total

Oh, you mean the The Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player that was first handed out in 1969? :facepalm:biggums::kobe:

[kawhileonard2]

Oh, you mean the The Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player that was first handed out in 1969? :facepalm:biggums::kobe:

Still doesn't have any. No one else had to win only 2 series and got a title like Russell also joined ROY and MVP winner as well.

[basketballcat]

Still doesn't have any. No one else had to win only 2 series and got a title like Russell also joined ROY and MVP winner as well.

He was MVP 5x. If they handed out FMVPs, he would have about 5 as well. 11+ 5 + 5 = 21. :lebronamazed:

How about DPOY? That's a major award too. If they handed those out, Russell would have a lot.

By your metric, Horry is better than Olajuwon. :facepalm :kobe:

[kawhileonard2]

He was MVP 5x. If they handed out FMVPs, he would have about 5 as well. 11+ 5 + 5 = 21. :lebronamazed:

How about DPOY? That's a major award too. If they handed those out, Russell would have a lot.

By your metric, Horry is better than Olajuwon. :facepalm :kobe:

He still doesn't have any.

[basketballcat]

Let's try this.

Peak criteria:
FMVP: 1 point
Champ as a starter: 0.5 point, do not double count with FMVP
MVP: 1 point
DPOY: 1 point

Longevity criteria:
All NBA: 0.5 point, do not double count with MVP
All Defensive: 0.5 point, do not double count with DPOY
Top 5 all time in any of the 5 major stats: 1 point
Top 10 in any of the 5 major stats: 0.5 point

Winning:
Made playoffs: 0.1 points
Made Finals: 0.3 points

-------------

FMVP: assume Russell has 5, as he had 5 MVPs

So, who is the GOAT? I honestly didn't do the maths.

[kawhileonard2]

Let's try this.

Peak criteria:
FMVP: 1 point
Champ as a starter: 0.5 point, do not double count with FMVP
MVP: 1 point
DPOY: 1 point

Longevity criteria:
All NBA: 0.5 point, do not double count with MVP
All Defensive: 0.5 point, do not double count with DPOY
Top 5 all time in any of the 5 major stats: 1 point
Top 10 in any of the 5 major stats: 0.5 point

Winning:
Made playoffs: 0.1 points
Made Finals: 0.3 points

-------------

FMVP: assume Russell has 5, as he had 5 MVPs

So, who is the GOAT? I honestly didn't do the maths.

We can't assume Russell has 5 because he has 0. Let's assume all others only had to win 2 series to win a title and joined a ROY and MVP as well how many titles in an eight team league? See how that works?

[basketballcat]

We can't assume Russell has 5 because he has 0. Let's assume all others only had to win 2 series to win a title and joined a ROY and MVP as well how many titles in an eight team league? See how that works?

I touched on quality of rings on my OP.

[Axe]

You're trying way too hard now op, i suggest you cut it out.

[warriorfan]

first criteria - can’t be out scored by an aging, zero time all star, undersized shooting guard on the biggest stage

[Full Court]

I touched on quality of rings on my OP.

Well, GoatTits, if you were serious about ring quality then you would admit that 2020 is the biggest joke of a ring of all time.


D E S P E R A T I O N

[Overdrive]

Let's try this.

Peak criteria:
FMVP: 1 point
Champ as a starter: 0.5 point, do not double count with FMVP
MVP: 1 point
DPOY: 1 point

Longevity criteria:
All NBA: 0.5 point, do not double count with MVP
All Defensive: 0.5 point, do not double count with DPOY
Top 5 all time in any of the 5 major stats: 1 point
Top 10 in any of the 5 major stats: 0.5 point

Winning:
Made playoffs: 0.1 points
Made Finals: 0.3 points

-------------

FMVP: assume Russell has 5, as he had 5 MVPs

So, who is the GOAT? I honestly didn't do the maths.

More arbitrary BS from the no narratives guy.

[basketballcat]

More arbitrary BS from the no narratives guy.

If you want the quick and simple version: 11 rings. There, done.:yaohappy:

[basketballcat]

first criteria - can’t be out scored by an aging, zero time all star, undersized shooting guard on the biggest stage

Ah yes, Terry Cummings :yaohappy:

[basketballcat]

Well, GoatTits, if you were serious about ring quality then you would admit that 2020 is the biggest joke of a ring of all time.


D E S P E R A T I O N

Nah. It's the one where Payton held Pippen Lite to a pathetic 41.5 FG%. Kemp was as good as any player in that series.

[Overdrive]

If you want the quick and simple version: 11 rings. There, done.:yaohappy:

So you think it hurts me that Russell could be considered GOAT? Quite the opposite. You on the other hand are desperate that Lebron could not be considered GOAT.

[basketballcat]

So you think it hurts me that Russell could be considered GOAT? Quite the opposite. You on the other hand are desperate that Lebron could not be considered GOAT.

So you think it hurts me that Russell could be considered GOAT? Quite the opposite. He IS the GOAT. Kareem or LeBron 2nd. :lebronamazed: