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View Full Version : Remove each team's best player - how much worse do they become?


jayfan
03-31-2023, 01:26 PM
No team's drop would come close to Denver's free-fall. Without Jokic, that team doesn't even make the playoffs.

This is not meant as a Jokic mvp endorsement. More-so, an indictment against Denver's ability to build a team. It's ridiculous.
Real Men Wear Green
03-31-2023, 01:28 PM
That would be rough but without Doncic I doubt Dallas wins double digit games.
jayfan
03-31-2023, 01:34 PM
That would be rough but without Doncic I doubt Dallas wins double digit games.

Perhaps, but they aren't very good with him, either. They're not even making the play-in.

Denver is #1 in the west.


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Im Still Ballin
03-31-2023, 01:34 PM
Denver is 3-6 without Jokic now. Milwaukee is 10-6 without Giannis, and Philadelphia is 9-5 without Embiid.
SouBeachTalents
03-31-2023, 01:37 PM
The biggest dropoffs imo would be Denver, OKC & Dallas.
jayfan
03-31-2023, 01:40 PM
The biggest dropoffs imo would be Denver, OKC & Dallas.


But remember, OKC is already missing Holmgren.


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Im Still Ballin
03-31-2023, 01:47 PM
Chetty Holmes'gren 2024 ROY.
HoopologyPhD
03-31-2023, 02:19 PM
Lakers without Reaves would struggle to beat CSU Northridge
bison
03-31-2023, 02:24 PM
The team with the smallest drop off would have to be the grizzlies
Xiao Yao You
03-31-2023, 03:16 PM
Chetty Holmes'gren 2024 ROY.

if Wemby doesn't get it after all the hype it would be extremely disappointing
Xiao Yao You
03-31-2023, 03:17 PM
The team with the smallest drop off would have to be the grizzlies

Jazz have played well without Lauri and without any of their guys for that matter. Certainly not like it was without Gobert under COTM
BigShotBob
03-31-2023, 05:50 PM
No team's drop would come close to Denver's free-fall. Without Jokic, that team doesn't even make the playoffs.

This is not meant as a Jokic mvp endorsement. More-so, an indictment against Denver's ability to build a team. It's ridiculous.

Nuggets are talented enough. They just employ a helio-centric offense and not a true one so it break down without its centerpiece. Same with Dallas as well
Manny98
03-31-2023, 07:08 PM
That would be rough but without Doncic I doubt Dallas wins double digit games.
Beat the Lakers & Clippers with Kyrie and no Luka
Proctor
04-01-2023, 10:51 AM
Nets without Bridges is the obvious answer

10 win team
tontoz
04-01-2023, 11:11 AM
Nuggets are talented enough. They just employ a helio-centric offense and not a true one so it break down without its centerpiece. Same with Dallas as well

So how do you explain the Nuggets big dropoff on defense when Jokic is on the bench?
Spurs m8
04-01-2023, 11:17 AM
Remove AD

Lottery
FKAri
04-01-2023, 11:19 AM
Perhaps, but they aren't very good with him, either. They're not even making the play-in.

Denver is #1 in the west.


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But their drop could be greater than Denver's. Isn't that what you asked?
jayfan
04-01-2023, 11:49 AM
But their drop could be greater than Denver's. Isn't that what you asked?


It is, yes. But I disagree. There are 15 teams in the western conference. The Mavs are 11th with Luka. They only have 4 more slots to fall without him.

Denver, on the other hand, is #1 with Jokic. They'd be no better than 11th or 12th without him, by my estimation. That's a bigger drop.

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BigShotBob
04-01-2023, 12:05 PM
So how do you explain the Nuggets big dropoff on defense when Jokic is on the bench?

Do it by lineup and then we can talk. On/Off metrics are flawed without context
1987_Lakers
04-01-2023, 12:10 PM
Jokic is the obvious winner in this thread.
tontoz
04-01-2023, 12:15 PM
Do it by lineup and then we can talk. On/Off metrics are flawed without context


Sure. If you don't want to answer the question just avoid it. I understand.

On/off metrics are very reliable in large sample sizes.
BigShotBob
04-01-2023, 02:01 PM
Sure. If you don't want to answer the question just avoid it. I understand.

On/off metrics are very reliable in large sample sizes.

I'd look it up myself if I had time to right now but I have other things to do.

If I remember correctly Manny pointed out to Angry Apu that on/off numbers said that Jaylen Brown was a net negative but he didn't account for the lineups. So that might be one example of why I'm asking what were the lineups when Jokic sat. If Jamal Murray and MPJ sits with him for instance, or any combination of Jokic/Gordon or Jokic/MPJ sits then it's not a reliable metric even with a large sample size
Full Court
04-01-2023, 02:05 PM
OKC without SGA would be in the running too.
tontoz
04-01-2023, 02:17 PM
Murray has a BPM of 1.2

MPJ has a BPM of 0.1

Jokic has a BPM of 13.3 which leads the league.

Pretty clear who is the difference maker. Those 3 start the 1st and 3rd quarters together.

Do you have any evidence at all to back up your "Helio" nonsense?
tontoz
04-01-2023, 02:25 PM
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g195/tontoz/IMG_20230401_142435.jpg


https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/denver-nuggets-plus-minus-leaders
tontoz
04-01-2023, 02:31 PM
For the record Jaylen Brown is 2nd on the Celtics in +/-.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=boston+celtics+player+with+best+plus+minus+2 021-2022
iamgine
04-01-2023, 02:51 PM
If you remove Jokic for good, there's a chance guys like Murray, MPJ will step up to carry the offense. Like Mikal Bridges in Brooklyn.

Meanwhile, if you remove Luka for good, I think Kyrie will just shut down and no one else could step up.
RRR3
04-01-2023, 03:08 PM
Jazz have played well without Lauri and without any of their guys for that matter. Certainly not like it was without Gobert under COTM
The Jazz are 4-8 without Markkanen. You literally make stuff up.
RRR3
04-01-2023, 03:09 PM
Murray has a BPM of 1.2

MPJ has a BPM of 0.1

Jokic has a BPM of 13.3 which leads the league.

Pretty clear who is the difference maker. Those 3 start the 1st and 3rd quarters together.

Do you have any evidence at all to back up your "Helio" nonsense?
BPM is useless. It's box score based, not impact based. Use EPM, it's much better: https://dunksandthrees.com/epm


Unsurprisingly, Jokic is the best in that stat too :lol
Manny98
04-01-2023, 03:12 PM
Jazz have played well without Lauri and without any of their guys for that matter. Certainly not like it was without Gobert under COTM
Again Mitchell was 6-3 without Rudy last season
Xiao Yao You
04-01-2023, 03:34 PM
Again Mitchell was 6-3 without Rudy last season

Manny going to the grave with his 9 game sample size. How about Clarkson and Whiteside! :roll:
Manny98
04-01-2023, 03:46 PM
Manny going to the grave with his 9 game sample size. How about Clarkson and Whiteside! :roll:
12.4 Net rating in 741 minutes together, they were the best bench duo in the league last year statistically

You can look for yourself if you think I'm trolling

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?GroupQuantity=2&Season=2021-22&TeamID=1610612762&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=MIN
Xiao Yao You
04-01-2023, 03:48 PM
12.4 Net rating in 741 minutes together, they were the best bench duo in the league last year statistically

You can look for yourself if you think I'm trolling

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?GroupQuantity=2&Season=2021-22&TeamID=1610612762&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=MIN

I could care less what stats you came up with those guys. Both are bums that I would never choose to be on my teams. Playing hard at both ends and playing smart are things I like in players. Neither of these guys fit the bill