Top Ten Players - 2023

[StrongLurk]

Now the season is over, let's see who the best are. Kind of a hard year to rank with so much parody and injuries to the usual superstars.

Tier 1 - Jokic, Giannis, Embiid (easy list here)

The rest of the top ten is hard to put in any order for me. I'll just list the names.

Tier 2 - Luka, AD, Jimmy Butler, Curry, KD, Damian Lillard, SGA.

Guess that leaves Kawhi, Lebron, Tatum out of the top ten? I know people probably don't like the SGA pick, but just based on this regular season alone, he's top ten. Damian Lillard probably had his career best season, but his teammates are total trash.

[RRR3]

What points to AD being better than LeBron? Record and +/- favor LeBron clearly.

[Axe]

Lillard wasted himself enough in oregon. Maybe it's better if he flocks somewhere in east now.

[Full Court]

Now the season is over, let's see who the best are. Kind of a hard year to rank with so much parody and injuries to the usual superstars.

Tier 1 - Jokic, Giannis, Embiid (easy list here)

The rest of the top ten is hard to put in any order for me. I'll just list the names.

Tier 2 - Luka, AD, Jimmy Butler, Curry, KD, Damian Lillard, SGA.

Guess that leaves Kawhi, Lebron, Tatum out of the top ten? I know people probably don't like the SGA pick, but just based on this regular season alone, he's top ten. Damian Lillard probably had his career best season, but his teammates are total trash.

Pretty good list. The only one I kind of disagree with, is I think Tatum has to be on the list. I'd probably swap him out for Curry. Curry's still an elite player, but I'm not sure he did enough to crack top ten this year.\

And yes, SGA belongs there.

[SouBeachTalents]

Giannis
Jokic
Embiid
Luka
Steph
KD
Tatum
AD
LeBron
Kawhi

[Full Court]

What points to AD being better than LeBron? Record and +/- favor LeBron clearly.

There we go with the +/- again. :roll: That's all you Bronie fluffers have.

How about AD being an elite defender, while LeShrivel sits there and watches the other team score?

[kawhileonard2]

What points to AD being better than LeBron? Record and +/- favor LeBron clearly.

Higher PER, WS, WS/PER 48 minutes, VORP, Box Plus/Minus

[HoopologyPhD]

LeBron might as well be at the top bc of $ but we won't know who is the most valuable in terms of rangz until june

[Manny98]

Tier 1

1. Giannis
2. Embiid
3. Jokic

Tier 2

4. Luka
5. LeBron
6. KD
7. Curry
8. AD
9. Butler
10.Kawhi
11. Tatum

Tier 3

12. Lillard
13. Morant
14. Booker
15. SGA
16. PG
17. Mitchell
18. Harden
19. Kyrie
20. Holiday
21. Brown

[SaltyMeatballs]

1. Giannis
2. Embiid
3. Jokic
4. Curry
5. Luka
6. KD
7. Tatum
8. Kawhi
9. AD
10. SGA

[fourkicks44]

The insidehoops community overrates Luka and serverly underrates Tatum.

Did anyone else just see Luka's team miss the god damn play in in the season the West has been weakest in 20 years?

I know he is a great player, but come on. Let us be realistic about the season we have just witnessed.

[Manny98]

The insidehoops community overrates Luka and serverly underrates Tatum.

Did anyone else just see Luka's team miss the god damn play in in the season the West has been weakest in 20 years?

I know he is a great player, but come on. Let us be realistic about the season we have just witnessed.
Tatum has a way better team around him

[fourkicks44]

Tatum has a way better team around him

The 4th best player in the league should be able to make the f'ckin play in, come on now.

[StrongLurk]

Tier 1

1. Giannis
2. Embiid
3. Jokic

Tier 2

4. Luka
5. LeBron
6. KD
7. Curry
8. AD
9. Butler
10.Kawhi
11. Tatum

Tier 3

12. Lillard
13. Morant
14. Booker
15. SGA
16. PG
17. Mitchell
18. Harden
19. Kyrie
20. Holiday
21. Brown

How exactly was Lebron better than Lilliard and SGA?

Lebron just had his worst season in a while to be honest. He was barely top ten last year and that was with a good three-point shot last year. This year he might be the worst volume three point shooter in the league, plus he can't play defense in this uptempo regular season.

[Manny98]

How exactly was Lebron better than Lilliard and SGA?

Lebron just had his worst season in a while to be honest. He was barely top ten last year and that was with a good three-point shot last year. This year he might be the worst volume three point shooter in the league, plus he can't play defense in this uptempo regular season.

Regular season wise no he's not better

But in a playoff series I'd still rather have LeBron than damm near every player in the NBA just off his superior basketball IQ and big game experience

[Manny98]

The 4th best player in the league should be able to make the f'ckin play in, come on now.
Swap Luka and Tatum and Dallas are still not making the play in

I have Luka at 4 and Tatum 11 but everyone in my tier 2 are pretty much interchangeable, not much of a difference between them

[fourkicks44]

Swap Luka and Tatum and Dallas are still not making the play in

I have Luka at 4 and Tatum 11 but everyone in my tier 2 are pretty much interchangeable, not much of a difference between them

Kyrie and Tatum made the Conference finals when they played together and that was a rookie Tatum with Kyrie injured.

Luka should have made the play in. I understand the roster and personal challenges the team has but he dominates the ball, leads the team in ever category and has to take the blame for not elevating his team enough to make the god damn poverty level play in tournament crap.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Doncic does deserve blame but more for his poor defensive effort and focus than what he does on offense. If he needs to dominate the ball less to be an average defense then do so but he had himself admitted he's not trying on defense. That's the kind of thing that makes a player less than his raw numbers are telling you. Doncic should be better than Tatum but this season was not because of these defensive issues. Tatum gives a great effort in all areas.

[RRR3]

Doncic does deserve blame but more for his poor defensive effort and focus than what he does on offense. If he needs to dominate the ball less to be an average defense then do so but he had himself admitted he's not trying on defense. That's the kind of thing that makes a player less than his raw numbers are telling you. Doncic should be better than Tatum but this season was not because of these defensive issues. Tatum gives a great effort in all areas.
I think there are a lot of things that happened that led to the Mavericks demise, but I'm not sure even then I'd say Tatum is a better player than Doncic in a vacuum. I'm pretty high on Tatum though he has solidified himself as top 10.

[fourkicks44]

Ok I got a question for all you intelligent, well infomed, non biased, level headed Insidehoops members.

Who had a better supporting cast and team, Luka this season or Jokic last season?

[Carbine]

Tatum on the Mavs this year would have had a better record. Especially with Kyrie in the mix because Tatum is world's better on defense and fits better on offense with Kyrie.

He's just an easier player to play with, even though his individual offensive brilliance isn't the same level as Doncic.

Bill Russell said it best "I don't distort your offense or defense... The way I play, my team wins"

[iamgine]

I'll do top 15 - Not in order

Tier 1:

Jokic
Embiid
Doncic
Giannis

Tier 2:

Butler
Durant
Lillard
SGA

Tier 3:

Haliburton
AD
Mitchell
Lebron
Zion
Morant
Kawhi

[BigTicket]

Tier 1:
Embiid
Jokic
Giannis

Rest of the top 10:
Doncic
Curry
Durant
Lillard
SGA
Morant
Tatum

Great year for a lot of players, but also strange to see some top players missing even the playin.

[Manny98]

Kyrie and Tatum made the Conference finals when they played together and that was a rookie Tatum with Kyrie injured.

Luka should have made the play in. I understand the roster and personal challenges the team has but he dominates the ball, leads the team in ever category and has to take the blame for not elevating his team enough to make the god damn poverty level play in tournament crap.

He should have but that does not make him worse than Tatum as a player
Offensively Luka is clearly better

[ImKobe]

The insidehoops community overrates Luka and serverly underrates Tatum.

Did anyone else just see Luka's team miss the god damn play in in the season the West has been weakest in 20 years?

I know he is a great player, but come on. Let us be realistic about the season we have just witnessed.

Basketball is a team sport. No one is taking Tatum over Doncic if we look at their individual skills and their production over the past 4 years, and JT didn't close the gap this season either. West is not weak at all lol, idk where you got that idea from when Suns - Clippers - GS - Lakers are the 4-7 seeds. Mavs were 5 - 11 without Luka this season. They lost Brunson for nothing going into the season and went bust on their FA signings.


Kyrie and Tatum made the Conference finals when they played together and that was a rookie Tatum with Kyrie injured.

Luka should have made the play in. I understand the roster and personal challenges the team has but he dominates the ball, leads the team in ever category and has to take the blame for not elevating his team enough to make the god damn poverty level play in tournament crap.

This has to be some master level trolling. You're talking about a much weaker EC and where Tatum was arguably the 2nd best player on his team in that run. Celtics have always been stacked and if you swapped the two players, Luka would be playing for titles while JT would be missing the POs with that Mavs team.

[Axe]

Basketball is a team sport. No one is taking Tatum over Doncic if we look at their individual skills and their production over the past 4 years, and JT didn't close the gap this season either. West is not weak at all lol, idk where you got that idea from when Suns - Clippers - GS - Lakers are the 4-7 seeds. Mavs were 5 - 11 without Luka this season. They lost Brunson for nothing going into the season and went bust on their FA signings.



This has to be some master level trolling. You're talking about a much weaker EC and where Tatum was arguably the 2nd best player on his team in that run. Celtics have always been stacked and if you swapped the two players, Luka would be playing for titles while JT would be missing the POs with that Mavs team.
Damn, this dude is ridiculously doing anything just to dismiss the success of tatum. :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

Damn, this dude is ridiculously doing anything just to dismiss the success of tatum. :oldlol:

There's nothing to dismiss. He's around top 10 in the league which is nothing to be ashamed of. None of the metrics nor his Playoff performances would suggest that he's anything more as of right now, but that could change in the future. Luka's PO averages for his career are 33/9/8 on 58%TS vs. Tatum's 23/7/4 56%TS. He's been better in both RS & POs individually and I don't think anyone's going to argue otherwise. Tatum has the one Finals run to his name but he was abysmal against GS while Luka put up 32/9/6.

[ArbitraryWater]

The insidehoops community overrates Luka and serverly underrates Tatum.

Did anyone else just see Luka's team miss the god damn play in in the season the West has been weakest in 20 years?

I know he is a great player, but come on. Let us be realistic about the season we have just witnessed.


its probably never been harder to make the playoffs when you have just a middling team, than this year.

So thats a dumb thing to say bro.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I think there are a lot of things that happened that led to the Mavericks demise, but I'm not sure even then I'd say Tatum is a better player than Doncic in a vacuum. I'm pretty high on Tatum though he has solidified himself as top 10.
"In a vacuum. " Tatum will never be the 30 point triple double guy that Doncic can be. But just talking this year, you don't hear Joe Mazzulla talking about how his team lacks maturity. Doncic has been failing to get back on defense after noncalls so frequently that his coach complains about it. Doncic had defended so poorly that he himself had pointed it out. Doncic is a whole offense by himself but every team doesn't need that kind of play. Every team does need strong defenders and while Tatum is great on D Doncic is well below average. If Doncic had played just honest, average defense I wouldn't be able to make this point but he's a negative on that end and only has himself to blame for that.

[fourkicks44]

Basketball is a team sport. No one is taking Tatum over Doncic if we look at their individual skills and their production over the past 4 years, and JT didn't close the gap this season either. West is not weak at all lol, idk where you got that idea from when Suns - Clippers - GS - Lakers are the 4-7 seeds. Mavs were 5 - 11 without Luka this season. They lost Brunson for nothing going into the season and went bust on their FA signings.



This has to be some master level trolling. You're talking about a much weaker EC and where Tatum was arguably the 2nd best player on his team in that run. Celtics have always been stacked and if you swapped the two players, Luka would be playing for titles while JT would be missing the POs with that Mavs team.

My original intention was not to try and make comparisons about or debate who is better between Luka and Tatum. I can see how maybe that could have been mistaken from my earlier post but I was just trying to point out my observation that people have Luka so high in their rankings and Tatum so low. Insight doesn’t even have Tatum in the top 15!

But whatever, trying to have a conversation about Tatum with you and Manny is futile anyway, You are both his biggest haters on this forum, it does not interest me at all. I respect the kid and appreciate him as a player, but if anyone has reason to dislike him I think I could have the biggest argument for that out of all of you.

That being said it doesn't give Luka a pass and what you said about the West is bullshit. The Suns and Clippers have old ass star players who are well past their prime and are regularly injured or just sit out every 3 games or so . The Warriors have had their own injury issues and their inconsistency has made them ass on the road.

Now can these teams get their shit together, make a push and be dangerous in the playoffs? Sure you can make stong arguments about how tough those teams CAN be, but that’s not what this is about.

This is about those teams' underwhelming regular season records and the fact that Luka couldn't get his team into the play in over the muthaf'ckin OKC Thunder.

[Axe]

There's nothing to dismiss. He's around top 10 in the league which is nothing to be ashamed of. None of the metrics nor his Playoff performances would suggest that he's anything more as of right now, but that could change in the future. Luka's PO averages for his career are 33/9/8 on 58%TS vs. Tatum's 23/7/4 56%TS. He's been better in both RS & POs individually and I don't think anyone's going to argue otherwise. Tatum has the one Finals run to his name but he was abysmal against GS while Luka put up 32/9/6.
Yep. As usual, you judged him by measuring his offensive numbers. Disregarding his defensive abilities and impact on his team. :roll:

[Full Court]

Yep. As usual, you judged him by measuring his offensive numbers. Disregarding his defensive abilities and impact on his team. :roll:

^Is the dingus talking about Lebron???

:lebronamazed:

[And1AllDay]

There we go with the +/- again. :roll: That's all you Bronie fluffers have.

How about AD being an elite defender, while LeShrivel sits there and watches the other team score?

meltdown

[Axe]

As usual, forum redneck jizzrag had to show other posters on why he's truly braindead. Again. :hammerhead:

[ImKobe]

My original intention was not to try and make comparisons about or debate who is better between Luka and Tatum. I can see how maybe that could have been mistaken from my earlier post but I was just trying to point out my observation that people have Luka so high in their rankings and Tatum so low. Insight doesn’t even have Tatum in the top 15!

But whatever, trying to have a conversation about Tatum with you and Manny is futile anyway, You are both his biggest haters on this forum, it does not interest me at all. I respect the kid and appreciate him as a player, but if anyone has reason to dislike him I think I could have the biggest argument for that out of all of you.

That being said it doesn't give Luka a pass and what you said about the West is bullshit. The Suns and Clippers have old ass star players who are well past their prime and are regularly injured or just sit out every 3 games or so . The Warriors have had their own injury issues and their inconsistency has made them ass on the road.

Now can these teams get their shit together, make a push and be dangerous in the playoffs? Sure you can make stong arguments about how tough those teams CAN be, but that’s not what this is about.

This is about those teams' underwhelming regular season records and the fact that Luka couldn't get his team into the play in over the muthaf'ckin OKC Thunder.

I'm sorry if it comes off as hating but I can't put him any higher based on his production & past Playoff performance. Him and Jaylen Brown were basically 1a & 1b in last year's Playoffs and neither were that efficient overall. The numbers/efficiency are just not good enough for this era to warrant a higher ranking.

SGA has been better than Tatum and arguably as good as Luka in this RS. SGA doesn't get talked about enough tbh, he's been incredibly consistent this season on both ends of the court.


Yep. As usual, you judged him by measuring his offensive numbers. Disregarding his defensive abilities and impact on his team. :roll:

What defense? Celtics are better on D with Tatum on the bench bro, and Tatum is a good defensive player, but he's not the anchor of that D. He's not some elite DPOY-level player where it makes up for the load that Luka's carried for 4 years now lol.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I realize that you hate in Tatum like it's your job but saying the Celtic defense is better when Tatum doesn't play is stupid in the extreme. Can't wait for you to post your easily refuted advanced stat bullshit.

[Axe]

What defense? Celtics are better on D with Tatum on the bench bro, and Tatum is a good defensive player, but he's not the anchor of that D. He's not some elite DPOY-level player where it makes up for the load that Luka's carried for 4 years now lol.
Huh? I never implied he was. But i'm pretty sure he does a better job on that end than luka does nowadays. Hopefully, you're not suddenly white knighting for the latter just because kyrie irving has become one of his teammates recently. :oldlol:

Oh, and going btt, you can keep on fuming about tatum. But in the end, the guy's been to at least two conference finals and a finals already. He's also yet to miss the playoffs too but sure. Keep on bragging that your boy ingraham (and maybe even doncic) have done a lot of better things in the postseason in the last six years just because they seem to provide better offensive production than him. :lol

[ImKobe]

Huh? I never implied he was. But i'm pretty sure he does a better job on that end than luka does nowadays. Hopefully, you're not suddenly white knighting for the latter just because kyrie irving has become one of his teammates recently. :oldlol:

Oh, and going btt, you can keep on fuming about tatum. But in the end, the guy's been to at least two conference finals and a finals already. He's also yet to miss the playoffs too but sure. Keep on bragging that your boy ingraham (and maybe even doncic) have done a lot of better things in the postseason in the last six years just because they seem to provide better offensive production than him. :lol

He was drafted to a team with a young core in place that already made the ECF lol. If only team accomplishments matter then you would have no problem with me putting Kobe over Lebron, right?

[ImKobe]

I realize that you hate in Tatum like it's your job but saying the Celtic defense is better when Tatum doesn't play is stupid in the extreme. Can't wait for you to post your easily refuted advanced stat bullshit.


Celtics are 2.2 points per 100 better on D with Tatum off the court (112.7 DRTG On, 110.5 Off)
Tatum has a negative Defensive RAPTOR (-0.7)
Tatum is in the 77th percentile on D according to EPM (+0.77), which is decent but it doesn't say he's elite either

Either way, do you really have a problem with me putting Luka over Tatum? Do you not understand the gap between the two on offense?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Celtics are 2.2 points per 100 better on D with Tatum off the court (112.7 DRTG On, 110.5 Off)
Tatum has a negative Defensive RAPTOR (-0.7)
Tatum is in the 77th percentile on D according to EPM (+0.77), which is decent but it doesn't say he's elite either

Either way, do you really have a problem with me putting Luka over Tatum? Do you not understand the gap between the two on offense?
That 2.2 points doesn't factor in who is being played against. Unsurprisngly you ignore the fact that Tatum is out there when the opposing team's stars are playing. You can rate Tatum however you want, you're a known hater. Good luck to Ingram in the play-in.

[Phoenix]

The 4th best player in the league should be able to make the f'ckin play in, come on now.

The Mavs were like the 5th seed before the big trade. Had they kept the roster intact they likely weren't returning to the WCFs, but I seriously doubt they crash and burn like what we just witnessed.

[Axe]

He was drafted to a team with a young core in place that already made the ECF lol. If only team accomplishments matter then you would have no problem with me putting Kobe over Lebron, right?
Lol what's next? He played in a 'weak east', that's why he went that far? You're a bit predictable.

[ImKobe]

Lol what's next? He played in a 'weak east', that's why he went that far? You're a bit predictable.

What does any of this have to do with him vs. Luka right now?

[Axe]

What does any of this have to do with him vs. Luka right now?
Huh? I was actually pointing about tatum rh, not anyone else. And regardless if he was drafted by 'a team with young core', i'm sure he's the face of it. Not somebody else.

[ImKobe]

Huh? I was actually pointing about tatum rh, not anyone else. And regardless if he was drafted by 'a team with young core', i'm sure he's the face of it. Not somebody else.

You're not giving me anything that would make the case for Tatum over Doncic right now.

[Axe]

You mean you don't like players that even a teensy portion would somewhat remind you of scottie pippen. We know. :kobe:

Anyway, you think luka is going to put up the same production if he's playing for a more competitive team? Baloney. Oh, and he played in lesser games than tatum the past three seasons if i'm not mistaken.

[ImKobe]

You mean you don't like players that even a teensy portion would somewhat remind you of scottie pippen. We know. :kobe:

Anyway, you think luka is going to put up the same production if he's playing for a more competitive team? Baloney. Oh, and he played in lesser games than tatum the past three seasons if i'm not mistaken.

Mavs offensive numbers (ORTG, 3PT) are close to Boston's and Doncic doesn't have half the elite role players that Tatum does.

Doncic has performed at a much higher level in both RS & POs. Doncic is about to be All-NBA 1st team 4x to Tatum's 2 and he's played 1 less season and is a year younger than JT.

Doncic has a mid-range game, a post-up game, is better at getting to the FT line and has the volume 3PT shooting ability that JT does. Doncic is better from 3-10 ft and 10-16 ft as well. On top of all that he's leagues above Tatum as a ballhandler & a playmaker as well.

There's just nothing to argue for JT here, other than "He's a better team player" because he can't do as much offensively. I have not once seen JT carry a team like Luka did in last year's POs, and until I do I can't put them on the same level.

[StrongLurk]

Doncic is better than Tatum...doesn't mean Doncic doesn't have weaknesses.

[Axe]

Mavs offensive numbers (ORTG, 3PT) are close to Boston's and Doncic doesn't have half the elite role players that Tatum does.

Doncic has performed at a much higher level in both RS & POs. Doncic is about to be All-NBA 1st team 4x to Tatum's 2 and he's played 1 less season and is a year younger than JT.

Doncic has a mid-range game, a post-up game, is better at getting to the FT line and has the volume 3PT shooting ability that JT does. Doncic is better from 3-10 ft and 10-16 ft as well. On top of all that he's leagues above Tatum as a ballhandler & a playmaker as well.

There's just nothing to argue for JT here, other than "He's a better team player" because he can't do as much offensively. I have not once seen JT carry a team like Luka did in last year's POs, and until I do I can't put them on the same level.
And he still can't win despite being the better player. He also has kyrie now but that didn't translate into anything well post the all-star week. :cry:

Anyway, what carry-job that he did last year are you talking about? His team got the 4th seed and had brunson averaging over 20 ppg in the playoffs. I'm pretty sure he could have avoided a 3-0 deficit against golden state in the wcf if he was closer to being godlike too but it didn't happen at all.

[ImKobe]

And he still can't win despite being the better player. He also has kyrie now but that didn't translate into anything well post the all-star week. :cry:

Anyway, what carry-job that he did last year are you talking about? His team got the 4th seed and had brunson averaging over 20 ppg in the playoffs. I'm pretty sure he could have avoided a 3-0 deficit against golden state in the wcf if he was closer to being godlike too but it didn't happen at all.

Ok so you have 0 argument for JT. Got it.

[Axe]

Ok so you have 0 argument for JT. Got it.
I may not. But for sure most fans know that they're both better players than your boy ingraham. :lebronamazed:

[AlternativeAcc.]

Durant is number 1. Best scorer and playing some of the best D of his career. 30ppg on near 70% TS. Great playmaking.

Led a 12 game win streak with the garbage Nets and undefeated with the Suns who were mediocre without him and turned instant championship contenders with him despite losing Bridges for him.


People acting like he's 5th or 6th are crazy...

He's number 1. Giannis 2. Jokic 3. Lebron/Luka 4.