Peak Dwight Howard vs. Current Joel Embiid

[Im Still Ballin]

This seems like an obvious pick, but I want to gauge general sentiment here. This was an NBA subreddit post originally. I was surprised to see several people say "...and it isn't close." This seems like an exaggeration, doesn't it? I think it is.

I'd pick Joel due to his more dynamic and foundational offense. However, it's not by as much as some might think. Dwight's defense, rebounding, and finishing in the paint were also foundational in another way.

For all his talent, Embiid has yet to produce team success like Dwight has. Both regular season performance and postseason. 2009 and 2010 are levels that Joel hasn't touched yet.

Why is that? Injuries, supporting cast, tough conference?

[HoopologyPhD]

Chemistry could play a factor, Dwight seemed like a pretty loveable low-ego type guy that shared the stats and glory, which I imagine would be well appreciated by NBA role players. Kobe was one of the only teammates that didn't like Dwight.

Dwight was also always in peak physical condition aside from injuries and Embiid had to work on this his first few years in the league.

[FKAri]

Embiid easily and yes it's not even close. Dwight had the perfect team constructed around him and him and the rest of the team fed of each other. That team maximized it's potential with how far they were able to go. I'd argue they overshot their potential by getting hot from 3. None of those players was able to reproduce that success elsewhere. I still think people don't appreciate Embiid's talent.

[RRR3]

Embiid. Just a more complete player. Dwight was a superstar and a legend though.

[Im Still Ballin]

Embiid easily and yes it's not even close. Dwight had the perfect team constructed around him and him and the rest of the team fed of each other. That team maximized it's potential with how far they were able to go. I'd argue they overshot their potential by getting hot from 3. None of those players was able to reproduce that success elsewhere. I still think people don't appreciate Embiid's talent.

I just can't agree with it "not being close." Joel's got to show me that he can elevate a team to the heights D12 did in 2009 and 2010. Defense, rebounding, and finishing plays in the paint aren't flashy, but they're essential components to team success. Dwight brought those qualities in spades.

[fourkicks44]

I just can't agree with it "not being close." Joel's got to show me that he can elevate a team to the heights D12 did in 2009 and 2010. Defense, rebounding, and finishing plays in the paint aren't flashy, but they're essential components to team success. Dwight brought those qualities in spades.

These are legitimate questions. I can't really argue with too much of that reasoning.

However once again it needs to be noted that in Dwight's peak years the leauge was much weaker than now. The tide was turning from that mid 2000s period of expansion and the dilution of talent due to the flood of straight from high school draft picks but the East was far from as elite as it is now and what we have seen since that time.

[BigShotBob]

Embiid easily and yes it's not even close. Dwight had the perfect team constructed around him and him and the rest of the team fed of each other. That team maximized it's potential with how far they were able to go. I'd argue they overshot their potential by getting hot from 3. None of those players was able to reproduce that success elsewhere. I still think people don't appreciate Embiid's talent.

Dwight's "perfect team" wasn't favored to get out of the second round. He ended up beating Prime/Peak-ish Lebron without HCA without his all-star guard in Jameer Nelson.

Let's not be revisionist historians

[1987_Lakers]

As good as Dwight was, Embiid is better.

[AirBonner]

Dwight Howard 3 dpoy. Embiid? Got daddy’d by Tatum

[Lebron23]

Embiid

[John8204]

I'd go with Embiid...I feel like he's clearly a top 75 player and might be a top 15 center all-time. It's hard for me to hold team success against a guy playing in the Philly system. And it's been like 50 years since a Center won the scoring title with 30PPG season.

[warriorfan]

Embiid is more talented but Prime dwight may be better for a chip run. Dwight pre back problems was a workhorse. Very reliable. And his skill set of dpoy rim protection, elite rebounding, clean up the rim and pick up an easy and highly efficient 20 ppg was a great skill set to build around and make a contender.

Back in the day he got shit for not being a low post wizard. he had few moves, usually just dunk or a baby hook in the lane. Looking back that issue shouldn’t have gotten pushed as much. He was never going to be a hakeem type super polished low post guy. But his role as a 20 ppg / dpoy / rebounding champ was fine.

I remember seeing some stats from his prime about shots altered. He altered more shots then anyone by a good amount and would be a huge deterrent for teams to even try to take it to the paint. His defense was a game changer.

[AirBonner]

Embiid is more talented but Prime dwight may be better for a chip run. Dwight pre back problems was a workhorse. Very reliable. And his skill set of dpoy rim protection, elite rebounding, clean up the rim and pick up an easy and highly efficient 20 ppg was a great skill set to build around and make a contender.

Back in the day he got shit for not being a low post wizard. he had few moves, usually just dunk or a baby hook in the lane. Looking back that issue shouldn’t have gotten pushed as much. He was never going to be a hakeem type super polished low post guy. But his role as a 20 ppg / dpoy / rebounding champ was fine.

I remember seeing some stats from his prime about shots altered. He altered more shots then anyone by a good amount and would be a huge deterrent for teams to even try to take it to the paint. His defense was a game changer.

Well said. Dwight’s defense gave teams nightmares. Guy literally had junk around him half the time in Orlando and opposing teams still struggled

[Axe]

Embiid in the rs:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRM1WXb7OInB5HsiC9U5lrZwebv_bXmT 8MWpg&usqp=CAU

Embiid in the playoffs:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0yxQTMhnNuF4klymT4D5UGXsFzrXx8 vLvoQ&usqp=CAU

[FKAri]

Dwight's "perfect team" wasn't favored to get out of the second round. He ended up beating Prime/Peak-ish Lebron without HCA without his all-star guard in Jameer Nelson.

Let's not be revisionist historians
So you agree with me? Thanks.

[Druckenmiller]

Dwight Howard averaged 20 points four times in his career — 20.6, 20.6, 20.7, 22.6. He couldn't shoot outside of a dunk or layup. Couldn't make a free throw and his teams played around him not through him, as evidenced by his lack of assists and FGAs.

With the exception of his rookie year, Embiid has averaged more points than Howard's career high every season and is trending upwards.

Not to mention, Howard's passing was atrocious, 1.3 per game career, never averaged 2 per game in any season.

Embiid is averaging 4.2 assists per game this season.

Not close.

[999Guy]

Embiid is too good. Very Hakeem-esque godly ceiling he can reach on both ends.

Embiid quietly shut the lights out on defense in the 2019 playoffs in a way nobody in the current era has come close to. And now his best offensive comp is like Durant or some shit.

He’s way too good and if he plays his best possible ball on both ends, he could be GOAT-ish with how he can tilt a game. Howard never touched that potential. That said Embiid isn’t always at his defensive best. Howard was much more focused and consistent month to month, year to year, let alone playoff play. But Embiid’s talent and potential is too out of this world for Dwight.

[Im Still Ballin]

I continue to hear how great Embiid is. Why hasn't he had team and playoff success like Howard? There are always excuses...

[Kblaze8855]

I just can't agree with it "not being close." Joel's got to show me that he can elevate a team to the heights D12 did in 2009 and 2010. Defense, rebounding, and finishing plays in the paint aren't flashy, but they're essential components to team success. Dwight brought those qualities in spades.



Pretty much any time someone says “And it isn’t even close” it’s close.

[fourkicks44]

Pretty much any time someone says “And it isn’t even close” it’s close.

Peak Dwight vs Current Jokic?

Anyone want to touch that one?

Does one bubble conference finals compare to Dwights playoff resume?

I'm sure no one here is going to argue those same points of emphasis against Joker that have been argued against Joel itt.

I'll wait.

[Kblaze8855]

Peak Dwight was in a league with peak Lebron, finals mvp Kobe, and peak Wade and if you put him anywhere in that top 4 you wouldn’t have been alone. Neither Jokic nor Embiid are better than those 4. Personally I’m fine if you rank Dwight last of the 3 but fact remains…he was ranked right next to top 5-15 players of all time.


Nobody would have been outraged if you said Dwight was the second or third best player in the league at that time. The numbers obviously didn’t prevent that so I’m not sure they’re the best way to compare. It just sounds weird in retrospect.

Kinda like if I asked “Moses or Kareem/Magic/Bird” you’d all look at me like an idiot despite most people at times telling you he’s the best player in a league with all of them.

Some things just so skewed by history they sound wrong to say in the future.

Dwight vs Wade wouldn’t have been an outrageous thing to ask in 2010. And Wade vs Joker and Embiid certainly isn’t.


We are just at that point it starts to feel wrong to say so.

[FKAri]

Peak Dwight was in a league with peak Lebron, finals mvp Kobe, and peak Wade and if you put him anywhere in that top 4 you wouldn’t have been alone. Neither Jokic nor Embiid are better than those 4. Personally I’m fine if you rank Dwight last of the 3 but fact remains…he was ranked right next to top 5-15 players of all time.


Nobody would have been outraged if you said Dwight was the second or third best player in the league at that time. The numbers obviously didn’t prevent that so I’m not sure they’re the best way to compare. It just sounds weird in retrospect.

Kinda like if I asked “Moses or Kareem/Magic/Bird” you’d all look at me like an idiot despite most people at times telling you he’s the best player in a league with all of them.

Some things just so skewed by history they sound wrong to say in the future.

Dwight vs Wade wouldn’t have been an outrageous thing to ask in 2010. And Wade vs Joker and Embiid certainly isn’t.


We are just at that point it starts to feel wrong to say so.

But with the benefit of hindsight we can say it wasn't right to rate Dwight so highly at the time. I'm usually not a proponent of the "he was never good" philosophy applied to players after they fall off but in this case that entire Orlando Magic team was not as good as was believed back then. Their synergy made people overvalue the parts and on top of that they also over performed as a team. Guys like Jameer Nelson and Hedo became overrated as did Dwight. Now if you want to argue that how a player performs in the context of their team's system rather than a vacuum is a part of their greatness then sure. People talk about Steve Nash in the same manner and I have no problem with that.

[Im Still Ballin]

But with the benefit of hindsight we can say it wasn't right to rate Dwight so highly at the time. I'm usually not a proponent of the "he was never good" philosophy applied to players after they fall off but in this case that entire Orlando Magic team was not as good as was believed back then. Their synergy made people overvalue the parts and on top of that they also over performed as a team. Guys like Jameer Nelson and Hedo became overrated as did Dwight. Now if you want to argue that how a player performs in the context of their team's system rather than a vacuum is a part of their greatness then sure. People talk about Steve Nash in the same manner and I have no problem with that.

I don't know bro. This seems like pretty flimsy logic.

[FKAri]

I don't know bro. This seems like pretty flimsy logic.

These are all valid opinions(that can overlap):
A) They over performed and regressed after that
B) They all individually fell off after that(either injuries or past their peak)
C) They were greater than the sum of their parts

That's what the facts bare out. Public sentiment is that it's mainly B with a little bit of C. I just happen to think it's mainly A and some of C and a little bit of B.

[warriorfan]

wtf is this guy talking about?

:roll:

[BigShotBob]

But with the benefit of hindsight we can say it wasn't right to rate Dwight so highly at the time. I'm usually not a proponent of the "he was never good" philosophy applied to players after they fall off but in this case that entire Orlando Magic team was not as good as was believed back then. Their synergy made people overvalue the parts and on top of that they also over performed as a team. Guys like Jameer Nelson and Hedo became overrated as did Dwight. Now if you want to argue that how a player performs in the context of their team's system rather than a vacuum is a part of their greatness then sure. People talk about Steve Nash in the same manner and I have no problem with that.

Jameer Nelson was hurt. Dwight had Raefer Alston, Rashard Lewis and Hedo and dragged them to the Finals

If Lebron had the same feat it would add to his legacy, but since Dwight beat Lebron somehow that team was "better than we thought" or Lebron's team was "just that much worse" when their casts were comparable

[1987_Lakers]

Jameer Nelson was hurt. Dwight had Raefer Alston and Hedo and dragged them to the Finals

I remember watching them during that run, they didn't miss a beat when Nelson went down.

[FKAri]

Jameer Nelson was hurt. Dwight had Raefer Alston, Rashard Lewis and Hedo and dragged them to the Finals

If Lebron had the same feat it would add to his legacy, but since Dwight beat Lebron somehow that team was "better than we thought" or Lebron's team was "just that much worse" when their casts were comparable
I said they were worse than we thought. Not better. They just got hot from 3 for 2 series(vs Celts and Cavs) leading them to become overrated both as a team and individually. I added that they also had great synergy which made their players look better individually than they really were which is why for the most part the individuals didn't reproduce that success elsewhere.

[dankok8]

Dwight was a horrid passer which I think only one poster mentioned. His offensive value was thus very very limited to the extent that I couldn't put him at Embiid's level. While Dwight was a more impactful defender and clearly so Embiid is still a very good defender and way way better on offense. Even with deflation of Embiid's numbers that would occur if he travelled back in time, the offensive gap is still much bigger than the defensive one.

[Kblaze8855]

But with the benefit of hindsight we can say it wasn't right to rate Dwight so highly at the time.


You can say anything you want that doesn’t make it a sound argument. Nobody knows 10-15 years ago better than they knew it while living it(assuming they were adults). People start rewriting history all the time to be more in line with future developments and opinions.

The people in a time always know it better than anyone decades later know it through memory and numbers. It’s just uncomfortable to people to acknowledge how close a lot of bigger names are to those they have less respect for. Throws off our whole perception of greatness. Like these few guys are so untouchable….everyone’s touchable on the same floor.

Names and legacy overshadow everything in time.

[Im Still Ballin]

Dwight was a horrid passer which I think only one poster mentioned. His offensive value was thus very very limited to the extent that I couldn't put him at Embiid's level. While Dwight was a more impactful defender and clearly so Embiid is still a very good defender and way way better on offense. Even with deflation of Embiid's numbers that would occur if he travelled back in time, the offensive gap is still much bigger than the defensive one.

And yet, Dwight led a team to an average of 55.5 wins over four seasons, despite several changes in personnel. Hedo left, came back; Rashard left; Jameer went down with injury, team kept winning.

Yes, Dwight wasn't a good passer, but I think your analysis is incomplete. For starters, the gap in rebounding, conditioning, motor, and durability/availability is significant. Dwight was also more efficient at scoring in the restricted area - the most high-value spot on the court. A better finisher in the deep paint, for sure.

Some people hand-waive Dwight's offense away as if 20-23 ppg on 57-61% FG and 60-63% TS is nothing special. With barely any plays called for him. In an era when the average TS% was 54 and the average 2pt FG% was 48.5.

You know what those averages are now? 58.1% TS and 54.8% 2pt.

Look at the top-performing guys in today's league. Nic Claxton's doing 70% 2pt; Mason Plumlee's at 68% 2pt.

Prime Dwight in today's league is doing 23-25 ppg on 61 to 66% FG and 65 to 70% TS in today's league. Embiid definitely isn't doing 33 ppg on 65.5% TS in 2008-2012.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Embiid sucks but he was better than dwight. Similar defenders but Embiid is a much better go-to scorer.

[Carbine]

I think it's Joel as well pretty clearly.

I'm just going to say this right now, if Joel won the title this year it would be viewed as one of those "94 Hakeem 03 Duncan type peak years.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I think it's Joel as well pretty clearly.

I'm just going to say this right now, if Joel won the title this year it would be viewed as one of those "94 Hakeem 03 Duncan type peak years.

Obviously won't happen but... what? Harden has an argument for best playmaker in the league. And he's a 20ppg+ scorer, 1st ballot HOFer, and they have another dude averaging 20ppg as well.

Edit: may have misunderstood here. I guess you mean individually and not the perceived notion of carrying a team by himself

[FKAri]

You can say anything you want that doesn’t make it a sound argument. Nobody knows 10-15 years ago better than they knew it while living it(assuming they were adults). People start rewriting history all the time to be more in line with future developments and opinions.

The people in a time always know it better than anyone decades later know it through memory and numbers. It’s just uncomfortable to people to acknowledge how close a lot of bigger names are to those they have less respect for. Throws off our whole perception of greatness. Like these few guys are so untouchable….everyone’s touchable on the same floor.

Names and legacy overshadow everything in time.

The zeitgeist of a moment, sure. But the ramifications and evaluation of events can(but not not always) be improved with hindsight, perspective, a larger sample size, and not being caught up in the moment. It's the same reason writing about events after some time allows for a more objective account of what happened. Though, I don't deny it also allows for a rewriting of history. In the end, Dwight Howard's ability is simply a more known quantity today than it was in 2009.

[Kblaze8855]

Not his ability in 2009. Nothing about 2010-2023 changes anything he did in 2009 or alters his actual play. Only your perception of it which is shaped by irrelevant data from the future.

[FKAri]

Not his ability in 2009. Nothing about 2010-2023 changes anything he did in 2009 or alters his actual play. Only your perception of it which is shaped by irrelevant data from the future.
If a 3pt shooter shoots 40% for 30 games and shoots 30% in the next 30 games, you can look at it two ways(simplified):
His intrinsic ability is somewhere between the two and the differences are random variance.
He was a better shooter in the first 30(he was healthier, more focused, offensive setups were better, defenses were worse).
You're essentially arguing that it's always the second. I'm saying it's usually a mix of both.

[Kblaze8855]

What you’re saying is it even if the scope of the inquiry is the 30 games the guy shot well the fact that he didn’t shoot well for a different set of games has to factor in. And it simply doesn’t. Don’t ask how well someone performs at a specific time, if you intend to judge them by what they did at a different time.


When people ask how good a player was who played 15 years there is in fact, no one answer. That’s why we factor in the abstract greatness and make it a career ranking. At no one point is someone the best and worst they ever were at individual things. How well you can go play a game of basketball you can’t play it as a mix of 2007 you athletically and 2016 you mentally.

At all times you’re who you are at the time.


2008-2010 Dwight is the only issue when the question is how good 08-10 Dwight is. Not 2004 or 2020. It is entirely irrelevant data.

If you’re not asking that and you want to talk career rankings, it’s a completely different discussion.

[dankok8]

And yet, Dwight led a team to an average of 55.5 wins over four seasons, despite several changes in personnel. Hedo left, came back; Rashard left; Jameer went down with injury, team kept winning.

Yes, Dwight wasn't a good passer, but I think your analysis is incomplete. For starters, the gap in rebounding, conditioning, motor, and durability/availability is significant. Dwight was also more efficient at scoring in the restricted area - the most high-value spot on the court. A better finisher in the deep paint, for sure.

Some people hand-waive Dwight's offense away as if 20-23 ppg on 57-61% FG and 60-63% TS is nothing special. With barely any plays called for him. In an era when the average TS% was 54 and the average 2pt FG% was 48.5.

You know what those averages are now? 58.1% TS and 54.8% 2pt.

Look at the top-performing guys in today's league. Nic Claxton's doing 70% 2pt; Mason Plumlee's at 68% 2pt.

Prime Dwight in today's league is doing 23-25 ppg on 61 to 66% FG and 65 to 70% TS in today's league. Embiid definitely isn't doing 33 ppg on 65.5% TS in 2008-2012.

He did that in a weaker Eastern Conference than the one Embiid is playing in now though.

A projection of 23-25 ppg on 65-70 %TS is excessive IMO. Howard was a bad free throw shooter and even in today's soft defense era, teams would still hack him and put him at the line. I think he could do 23 ppg on 63 %TS but either way as a limited passer he isn't raising his team's offense. Even with a most optimistic projection Embiid is still a much better scorer and a much better passer which puts him two tiers above on offense.

Durability is a valid point but the thread is a peak comparison so I'm getting current Embiid who's been healthy this season. Thus we can assume full health. In a prime vs. prime comparison over longer stretches say 5 years I'd lean Dwight because of health too.

[FKAri]

What you’re saying is it even if the scope of the inquiry is the 30 games the guy shot well the fact that he didn’t shoot well for a different set of games has to factor in. And it simply doesn’t. Don’t ask how well someone performs at a specific time, if you intend to judge them by what they did at a different time.


When people ask how good a player was who played 15 years there is in fact, no one answer. That’s why we factor in the abstract greatness and make it a career ranking. At no one point is someone the best and worst they ever were at individual things. How well you can go play a game of basketball you can’t play it as a mix of 2007 you athletically and 2016 you mentally.

At all times you’re who you are at the time.


2008-2010 Dwight is the only issue when the question is how good 08-10 Dwight is. Not 2004 or 2020. It is entirely irrelevant data.

If you’re not asking that and you want to talk career rankings, it’s a completely different discussion.

I agree with what you've said here if basketball were an individual sport or if OP asked "who performed better, prime Howard in 08-10 or Embiid in 2XXX". My original rant was about the Magic and how much of their success, specifically the 09 playoffs, can be attributed to the individual play and greatness of Howard. If I'm plucking him out of that team and comparing him to Embiid in a vacuum then I need more context than just that run. I might not even need to go outside that 08-10 time window but I might. I might even look at how his teammates did elsewhere. I don't have my mind made up on Howard either and am open to reconsider.

[red1]

embiid is extremely talented on offense. one of the most fluid and coordinated bigs ever. the man is over 7 feet hitting jumpshots off the dribble like a guard.


dwight's only achievement was shitting on a geriatric big z.



embiid>>>>>

[Axe]

I hope dwight's not getting underrated here just because he became a teammate of king kong during the 2020 disney bubble. :oldlol:

[Im Still Ballin]

He did that in a weaker Eastern Conference than the one Embiid is playing in now though.

A projection of 23-25 ppg on 65-70 %TS is excessive IMO. Howard was a bad free throw shooter and even in today's soft defense era, teams would still hack him and put him at the line. I think he could do 23 ppg on 63 %TS but either way as a limited passer he isn't raising his team's offense. Even with a most optimistic projection Embiid is still a much better scorer and a much better passer which puts him two tiers above on offense.

Durability is a valid point but the thread is a peak comparison so I'm getting current Embiid who's been healthy this season. Thus we can assume full health. In a prime vs. prime comparison over longer stretches say 5 years I'd lean Dwight because of health too.

Dwight did 22.9 ppg on 61.6% TS in 2011. He had a 40-game stretch averaging 24.5 ppg, 14.7 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.3 spg, 2.2 bpg on 60.4% FG, 63.1% TS.

You really don't think he could add an extra 2 ppg and 3.4-8.4% more TS? Go and look at the 2pt% of the top performers in 2008-2012 versus 2023.

Prime Dwight in today's league is getting at least a 4% boost on his FG%/2pt%. Most likely more. More spacing, smaller frontcourts, more PnRs, more DHOs. A faster-paced league.

We saw Anthony Davis dominate for stretches this season by focusing on rim running. He stopped the shitty jump shots and ran PnR and dribble hand-offs excessively.

This year's version of AD is the closest player in the league to Dwight today. Both use/used incredible athleticism and length to dominate vertically.

[Im Still Ballin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkqiLMoJh6I


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogHehc52KAA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQlaDq6W6i8

[warriorfan]

Jameer Nelson was hurt. Dwight had Raefer Alston, Rashard Lewis and Hedo and dragged them to the Finals

If Lebron had the same feat it would add to his legacy, but since Dwight beat Lebron somehow that team was "better than we thought" or Lebron's team was "just that much worse" when their casts were comparable

Just imagine if those were LeBron’s teammates. We would literally never hear the end of it about how they suck so bad and it’s their fault.

The whole thing of Dwight not being a passer is overblown. He doesn’t need to be a great passer. He’s a highly efficient play finisher who doesn’t require high usage and the offense to be ran through him. This is actually a positive thing. When he can score a highly efficient 20+ ppg off offensive rebounds, a few deep low post positions, and rolls to the rim, that’s more than enough. If he can bring that while bringing his elite rebounding and best defensive play in the league… That’s a force and fairly easy to build around. This is why he was a consensus top 5 player at the least during his prime. I was going to bring it up but Kblaze already did. In his hey day he was ranked right behind or right with kobe/bron/wade. It wasn’t some huge mistake everyone miscalculated. He was legit playing at that level.

And I know this has been factored in but Dwight’s availability would be the tiebreaker in this deal.

Before back injuries Dwight had 5 seasons of playing 82 games. In the other two he played 79 and 78.

Embiid has never once played 70 games in a season.

Embiid is an amazing and entertaining player but dwight was dominant in his peak as well. Durability becomes a factor. Embiid’s health has been very unfortunate for him and the league. Dwight being an ironman is a big plus for him in this comparison.

[ShawkFactory]

Just imagine if those were LeBron’s teammates. We would literally never hear the end of it about how they suck so bad and it’s their fault.

The whole thing of Dwight not being a passer is overblown. He doesn’t need to be a great passer. He’s a highly efficient play finisher who doesn’t require high usage and the offense to be ran through him. This is actually a positive thing. When he can score a highly efficient 20+ ppg off offensive rebounds, a few deep low post positions, and rolls to the rim, that’s more than enough. If he can bring that while bringing his elite rebounding and best defensive play in the league… That’s a force and fairly easy to build around. This is why he was a consensus top 5 player at the least during his prime. I was going to bring it up but Kblaze already did. In his hey day he was ranked right behind or right with kobe/bron/wade. It wasn’t some huge mistake everyone miscalculated. He was legit playing at that level.

And I know this has been factored in but Dwight’s availability would be the tiebreaker in this deal.

Before back injuries Dwight had 5 seasons of playing 82 games. In the other two he played 79 and 78.

Embiid has never once played 70 games in a season.

Embiid is an amazing and entertaining player but dwight was dominant in his peak as well. Durability becomes a factor. Embiid’s health has been very unfortunate for him and the league. Dwight being an ironman is a big plus for him in this comparison.

Yea I remember back in 08 or 09 people were legit comparing him to Shaq. I remember he took that personally and their matchups were always fun.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

07-08 MVP Award Voting
1.Kobe Bryant
2.Chris Paul
3.Kevin Garnett
4.LeBron James
5.Dwight Howard
6.Amar'e Stoudemire
7.Tim Duncan
8.Tracy McGrady
9.Steve Nash
10.Manu Ginobli

--------------------------------------------

07-08 DPOY Award Voting
1.Kevin Garnett
2.Marcus Camby
3.Shane Battier
4.Bruce Bowen
5.Kobe Bryant
6.Josh Smith
7.Dwight Howard
8.Chris Paul
9.Tim Duncan
10.Tayshaun Prince

--------------------------------------------

08-09 MVP Award Voting
1.LeBron James
2.Kobe Bryant
3.Dwyane Wade
4.Dwight Howard
5.Chris Paul
6.Chancey Billups
7.Paul Pierce
8.Tony Parker
9.Brandon Boy
10.Dirk Nowitzki

--------------------------------------------

08-09 DPOY Award Voting
1.Dwight Howard
2.LeBron James
3.Dwyane Wade
4.Shane Battier
5.Metta World Peace
6.Chris Paul
7.Kobe Bryant
8.Kevin Garnett
9.Chris Andersen
10.Rajon Rondo

--------------------------------------------

09-10 MVP Award Voting
1.LeBron James
2.Kevin Durant
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Dwight Howard
5.Dwyane Wade
6.Carmelo Anthony
7.Dirk Nowitzki
8.Steve Nash
9.Deron Williams
10.Amar'e Stoudemire

--------------------------------------------

09-10 DPOY Award Voting
1.Dwight Howard
2.Josh Smith
3.Gerald Wallace
4.LeBron James
5.Rajon Rondo
6.Metta World Peace
7.Andrew Bogut
8.Thabo Sefolosha
9.Anderson Varejao
10.Marcus Camby

--------------------------------------------

10-11 MVP Award Voting
1.Derrick Rose
2.Dwight Howard
3.LeBron James
4.Kobe Bryant
5.Kevin Durant
6.Dirk Nowitzki
7.Dwyane Wade
8.Manu Ginobli
9.Amar'e Stoudemire
10.Blake Griffin

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10-11 DPOY Award Voting
1.Dwight Howard
2.Kevin Garnett
3.Tyson Chandler
4.Tony Allen
5.Rajon Rondo
6.Andrew Bogut
7.Grant Hill
8.Andre Iguodala
9.LeBron James
10.Luol Deng

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11-12 MVP Award Voting
1.LeBron James
2.Kevin Durant
3.Chris Paul
4.Kobe Bryant
5.Tony Parker
6.Kevin Love
7.Dwight Howard (Didn't finish season due to herniated disk in back)
8.Rajon Rondo
9.Steve Nash
10.Dwyane Wade

--------------------------------------------

11-12 DPOY Award Voting
1.Tyson Chandler
2.Serge Ibaka
3.Dwight Howard (Didn't finish season due to herniated disk in back)
4.LeBron James
5.Kevin Garnett
6.Tony Allen
7.Andre Iguodala
8.Shawn Marion
9.Luol Deng
10.Josh Smith



Dwight played 76 games for the Lakers during the 12-13 season while injured and was putting up 17/12/2 as the second option behind Kobe.

[March 21st,2018] Past his prime Dwight puts up 32 pts 30 reb vs Nets

[2020 WCF] A washed up Dwight gives Jokic some trouble defensively

I imagine a peak Dwight in todays NBA would be putting up numbers similar to Anthony Davis except he'd be HEALTHY, so a 26/15/3 guy with high efficiency. Overall a better athlete,better shape,more durable,better rebounder and rim protector than current Embiid/Davis/Jokic.

[Im Still Ballin]

07-08 MVP Award Voting
1.Kobe Bryant
2.Chris Paul
3.Kevin Garnett
4.LeBron James
5.Dwight Howard
6.Amar'e Stoudemire
7.Tim Duncan
8.Tracy McGrady
9.Steve Nash
10.Manu Ginobli

--------------------------------------------

07-08 DPOY Award Voting
1.Kevin Garnett
2.Marcus Camby
3.Shane Battier
4.Bruce Bowen
5.Kobe Bryant
6.Josh Smith
7.Dwight Howard
8.Chris Paul
9.Tim Duncan
10.Tayshaun Prince

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08-09 MVP Award Voting
1.LeBron James
2.Kobe Bryant
3.Dwyane Wade
4.Dwight Howard
5.Chris Paul
6.Chancey Billups
7.Paul Pierce
8.Tony Parker
9.Brandon Boy
10.Dirk Nowitzki

--------------------------------------------

08-09 DPOY Award Voting
1.Dwight Howard
2.LeBron James
3.Dwyane Wade
4.Shane Battier
5.Metta World Peace
6.Chris Paul
7.Kobe Bryant
8.Kevin Garnett
9.Chris Andersen
10.Rajon Rondo

--------------------------------------------

09-10 MVP Award Voting
1.LeBron James
2.Kevin Durant
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Dwight Howard
5.Dwyane Wade
6.Carmelo Anthony
7.Dirk Nowitzki
8.Steve Nash
9.Deron Williams
10.Amar'e Stoudemire

--------------------------------------------

09-10 DPOY Award Voting
1.Dwight Howard
2.Josh Smith
3.Gerald Wallace
4.LeBron James
5.Rajon Rondo
6.Metta World Peace
7.Andrew Bogut
8.Thabo Sefolosha
9.Anderson Varejao
10.Marcus Camby

--------------------------------------------

10-11 MVP Award Voting
1.Derrick Rose
2.Dwight Howard
3.LeBron James
4.Kobe Bryant
5.Kevin Durant
6.Dirk Nowitzki
7.Dwyane Wade
8.Manu Ginobli
9.Amar'e Stoudemire
10.Blake Griffin

--------------------------------------------

10-11 DPOY Award Voting
1.Dwight Howard
2.Kevin Garnett
3.Tyson Chandler
4.Tony Allen
5.Rajon Rondo
6.Andrew Bogut
7.Grant Hill
8.Andre Iguodala
9.LeBron James
10.Luol Deng

--------------------------------------------

11-12 MVP Award Voting
1.LeBron James
2.Kevin Durant
3.Chris Paul
4.Kobe Bryant
5.Tony Parker
6.Kevin Love
7.Dwight Howard (Didn't finish season due to herniated disk in back)
8.Rajon Rondo
9.Steve Nash
10.Dwyane Wade

--------------------------------------------

11-12 DPOY Award Voting
1.Tyson Chandler
2.Serge Ibaka
3.Dwight Howard (Didn't finish season due to herniated disk in back)
4.LeBron James
5.Kevin Garnett
6.Tony Allen
7.Andre Iguodala
8.Shawn Marion
9.Luol Deng
10.Josh Smith



Dwight played 76 games for the Lakers during the 12-13 season while injured and was putting up 17/12/2 as the second option behind Kobe.

[March 21st,2018] Past his prime Dwight puts up 32 pts 30 reb vs Nets

[2020 WCF] A washed up Dwight gives Jokic some trouble defensively

I imagine a peak Dwight in todays NBA would be putting up numbers similar to Anthony Davis except he'd be HEALTHY, so a 26/15/3 guy with high efficiency. Overall a better athlete,better shape,more durable,better rebounder and rim protector than current Embiid/Davis/Jokic.

Great post, amigo. Anthony Davis is the closest comparison.

I find it hard to ignore his success in comparison to Joel and Nikola. Rashard and Hedo were both Tobias Harris-level supporting acts that fell off fast. No James Harden, no Jimmy Butler, no worries - back-to-back 59-win seasons.