Kobe's Reputation As A Winner At All Costs

[Nowitness]

Was just listening to Isiah Thomas on All The Smoke and he made some comments about Kobe which have been lost to history.

He mentioned how when Kobe was publicly demanding trades and blowing up teams he had a meeting with NY (who Thomas was running at the time). Thomas asked Kobe why he'd have wanted to leave Shaq, as it made no sense to him (a true winner at all costs). Brick explained he has to win by himself otherwise he'd be remembered as a 2nd option and underrated all-time.

Doesn't this directly contradict his mythology of winning at all costs? Who cares if you're winning as the 2nd option, you're winning.

Meanwhile, his contemporary Tim Duncan (who worked half as hard to achieve more) willingly allowed other players to step up if it meant his team and coach (both of whom have won nothing without him) had a better chance of winning (Kobe's coach has more rings without Kobe than Pop has period, and LA won a title less than 5 years after his retirement tour ended). He even agreed to sit on the bench in crucial plays because that's what his coach asked (it backfired everytime because he has top 3 impact all-time).

That's a true winner. That's a man comfortable in his own skin (something Bryant never was, as evidenced by the fact that he copied others like MJ - who Duncan stated never impressed him - and AI).

[ArbitraryWater]

Interesting. Very interesting.

[FKAri]

Kobe's win-first as long as he's the one taking the big shots(that one single alley-oop to Shaq notwithstanding). At best you could say he always wanted the responsibility and at worst he was a glory hunter. But in that last season you could see it was just pure glory hunting. MJ was the same way until Phil was able to get him to buy in and be a team player. Something he couldn't achieve with Kobe. I speculate that Kobe may have been too smart for his own good and Phil's psych tactics probably weren't as effective.

I think the degradation of basketball coaching at the youth level is a big part of that. Talented guys seem to have bigger and bigger egos as time has gone by and are less coachable.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He wanted to be remembered as the greatest ever. It's not ideal for his team that he wanted to be the man when he had a teammate that was a better player but as an individual he has the right to pursue that goal. It's up to the team whether or not they can deal with him having an agenda. Things maybe could have gone better but there's no doubt that LA benefitted from Kobe Bryant, attitude and all.

[ImKobe]

He wanted to be remembered as the greatest ever. It's not ideal for his team that he wanted to be the man when he had a teammate that was a better player but as an individual he has the right to pursue that goal. It's up to the team whether or not they can deal with him having an agenda. Things maybe could have gone better but there's no doubt that LA benefitted from Kobe Bryant, attitude and all.

Shaq was no longer the better player but wanted to be treated like one, despite not putting in the work and despite declining physically. That was the issue. Did Kobe have an issue when they 3-Peated and Shaq took the lion share of the credit because he abused the weak EC Centers? No.

And demanding a trade in '07 when they had wasted 3 seasons of his prime is something anyone who cared about winning would do.. the team was a joke around him with no improvement in sight and once he got aggressive about wanting out they finally made all the moves that led to them making 3 straight Finals & winning B2B.

OP is a troll anyway but it's funny how people keep twisting the narrative with this shit. Shaq was washed up in 2004. Shaq wanted the max. Shaq still thought he should be the face of the franchise when KB had clearly been the better player since the 02-03 season.


Kobe's win-first as long as he's the one taking the big shots(that one single alley-oop to Shaq notwithstanding). At best you could say he always wanted the responsibility and at worst he was a glory hunter. But in that last season you could see it was just pure glory hunting. MJ was the same way until Phil was able to get him to buy in and be a team player. Something he couldn't achieve with Kobe. I speculate that Kobe may have been too smart for his own good and Phil's psych tactics probably weren't as effective.

I think the degradation of basketball coaching at the youth level is a big part of that. Talented guys seem to have bigger and bigger egos as time has gone by and are less coachable.

That's not true.




2 minutes left with margin of 3 in playoffs



Lebron

He is 40/106 in clutch situation
His free throw shooting is 49/67
True Shooting is, 49.8%
Assist per 36: 4.2 assists
Turnovers per 36: 4.2 turnovers

Kobe

He is 40/96 in clutch situations.
His free throw shooting is 67/79
His true shooting is 58 %
Assists per 36: 4.3 assists
Turnovers per 36: 1.7 turnovers

Finals: Last 2 minutes, margin of 3.


Lebron

He is 4/23 in clutch situations
His free throw shooting is 10/14
His true shooting is 31%
Assists per 36: 3.7 assists
TO per 36: 3.7 TO

Kobe

He is 10/20 in clutch situations
His free throw shooting is 4/5
His true shooting is 56.4%
Assists per 36: 7.5 assists
TO per 36: 1.5 TO

Finals: Last 5 minutes, margin of 5.

Lebron

17/62 in clutch situations in the finals.
32% EFG
43% TS.
Assists per 36: 4.26
TO per 36: 3.1

Kobe

28/63 in clutch situations in the finals.
46% EFG
53% TS.
Assists per 36: 3.6
TO per 36: 1.08

(this is from 2017)

Looks like Kobe passed the ball quite a bit in crunch time.


Horry in Game 5 WCSF in '03 missed a wide open 3 that would have put the Lakers up 3 - 2 on the Spurs and KB was the one who passed him the ball and trusted him to make that shot despite KB having a hot 2nd half, and despite Horry missing every single 3 (0/18) in that series. Lakers were in the midst of the biggest comeback in Playoff history at the time IIRC.


https://youtu.be/7DbQ5Euf4zo

Artest 3 vs. Boston happened because Kobe passed him the ball too..


https://youtu.be/Q-mT99HCFFI

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe was even setting up teammates for GW's with his bricks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEF6JXeZqI&ab_channel=BasketballAction


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GklQlH1z_KE&ab_channel=arch91reborn


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4seP2wD_K4&ab_channel=sebas000075

[tpols]

Kobe was bombarded with hate saying his rings were worth nothing because he played with Shaq. Even when he was dropping 29/7/6 on great efficiency for whole title runs.

So he kicked shaq out of town and *at the time* all the haters said he could never win without Shaq.

Long story short? Went on to win multiple times without Shaq. And shut all that prior criticism up.

And it's completely understandable. If you produce great but everybody says it didn't count because you had too much help. Then you're faced with a new challenge. Win rings with way less help.

And that's exactly what Kobe did.

[warriorfan]

Kobe isn’t even on this planet anymore and he’s still staying rent free all day

He won.

[FKAri]

Shaq was no longer the better player but wanted to be treated like one, despite not putting in the work and despite declining physically. That was the issue. Did Kobe have an issue when they 3-Peated and Shaq took the lion share of the credit because he abused the weak EC Centers? No.

And demanding a trade in '07 when they had wasted 3 seasons of his prime is something anyone who cared about winning would do.. the team was a joke around him with no improvement in sight and once he got aggressive about wanting out they finally made all the moves that led to them making 3 straight Finals & winning B2B.

OP is a troll anyway but it's funny how people keep twisting the narrative with this shit. Shaq was washed up in 2004. Shaq wanted the max. Shaq still thought he should be the face of the franchise when KB had clearly been the better player since the 02-03 season.



That's not true.



(this is from 2017)

Looks like Kobe passed the ball quite a bit in crunch time.


Horry in Game 5 WCSF in '03 missed a wide open 3 that would have put the Lakers up 3 - 2 on the Spurs and KB was the one who passed him the ball and trusted him to make that shot despite KB having a hot 2nd half, and despite Horry missing every single 3 (0/18) in that series. Lakers were in the midst of the biggest comeback in Playoff history at the time IIRC.


https://youtu.be/7DbQ5Euf4zo

Artest 3 vs. Boston happened because Kobe passed him the ball too..


https://youtu.be/Q-mT99HCFFI

Why are you posting clutch stats? Because of the passing? But it's interesting that you mention LeBron because he's lauded as this selfless guy but he's also only selfless as long as the team's still revolving around him. LeBron seems completely unable to take a backseat even more so than Kobe. I've always wondered how it would look when he's too old and his team has a better play maker. I think it would look a lot like Kobe's last season except instead of chucking it'd be him holding the ball at the top of the key and run plays that go nowhere to the detriment of the team.

I'll add the same caveat that I did for Kobe: There's a subtle difference between taking charge out of responsibility rather than ego. I think the two get conflated a lot in sports. And there are very few ways to tell the two apart. Kobe's last season was a way to tell it apart. And LeBron's already showing hints. This is nitpicking of superstar athletes but it comes up whenever the mythological narratives come up.

[ImKobe]

Why are you posting clutch stats? Because of the passing? But it's interesting that you mention LeBron because he's lauded as this selfless guy but he's also only selfless as long as the team's still revolving around him. LeBron seems completely unable to take a backseat even more so than Kobe. I've always wondered how it would look when he's too old and his team has a better play maker. I think it would look a lot like Kobe's last season except instead of chucking it'd be him holding the ball at the top of the key and run plays that go nowhere to the detriment of the team.

I'll add the same caveat that I did for Kobe: There's a subtle difference between taking charge out of responsibility rather than ego. I think the two get conflated a lot in sports. And there are very few ways to tell the two apart. Kobe's last season was a way to tell it apart. And LeBron's already showing hints. This is nitpicking of superstar athletes but it comes up whenever the mythological narratives come up.

I just thought I'd throw the Bran one in there as well I've cited those clutch numbers in the past to highlight that KB is actually not that inefficient nor selfish in close games since you implied that he essentially does not pass up the rock at the end of games as he wants to make the game-winning shot like MJ. Both him and Jordan set up their teammates for clutch shots in big Playoff games.

Here's another example of KB giving up the ball & setting up his teammate in the biggest moment in the Finals


https://youtu.be/nnoBRLskL-E

(look at the 2nd shot, in OT)

KB ruined his image by chucking the ball on a bunch of bad/mediocre teams in his prime & at the end of his career, but when they were playing for championships he was more of a team player than people give him credit for.

[FKAri]

KB ruined his image by chucking the ball on a bunch of bad/mediocre teams in his prime & at the end of his career, but when they were playing for championships he was more of a team player than people give him credit for.

Classic GIF btw. I'm not saying Kobe or LeBron are Ricky Davis. Selfishness/ego and striving to win are aligned almost all the time for a superstar in basketball where he needs to be the one taking charge. It's why scrubs get criticized for it more than star players. It's easier to see it from them. It's rare to even have the opportunity for a star to show it. Mostly we just call bad passing stars selfish when it's usually just that they can't pass or guys on terrible teams where they should be taking as many shots as possible.

Kobe needed to be "selfish" on those bad/mediocre teams in his prime. 05-07 Kobe is underrated if anything. But he didn't need to chuck near the end of his career when it was no longer about him but about developing young guys on a rebuilding team(Byron Scott was a puppet who didn't want to step on toes). Kobe also didn't need to make it about himself in 2004(which I'm sure he learned from).

Again, this is all nitpicking. It's not fair to criticize LeBron or Kobe for not being Dirk or Duncan level team players. Imo, so what if Kobe's selfish ego was the rocket fuel to power his will to win? In many ways it might take it higher than anyone else's. But when the two aren't aligned, it can come crashing down.

And yes, OP is a dirty troll.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Kobe could definitely be a prick at times.

[Full Court]

He wanted to be remembered as the greatest ever. It's not ideal for his team that he wanted to be the man when he had a teammate that was a better player but as an individual he has the right to pursue that goal. It's up to the team whether or not they can deal with him having an agenda. Things maybe could have gone better but there's no doubt that LA benefitted from Kobe Bryant, attitude and all.

If he were the greatest ever, he wouldn't have been second fiddle to anyone, including Shaq.

[Real Men Wear Green]

If he were the greatest ever, he wouldn't have been second fiddle to anyone, including Shaq.

Note that I did not say he was the greatest ever, just that that is what (I think) his goal was. As a Celtic fan I was never a true fan of Bryant but I have always respected him, though there was a time I wouldn't have said that so openly. He was a great competitor. There is no shame in not being the absolute greatest ever. A lot of you have lost the ability to respect a guy that "just" wins 5 rings because he was the second best player on his team for three of them. It's a bit stupid. Kobe was great. No he wasn't Jordan. You and I weren't even Smush Parker and yet still people talk ish.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe's win-first as long as he's the one taking the big shots(that one single alley-oop to Shaq notwithstanding). At best you could say he always wanted the responsibility and at worst he was a glory hunter. But in that last season you could see it was just pure glory hunting. MJ was the same way until Phil was able to get him to buy in and be a team player. Something he couldn't achieve with Kobe. I speculate that Kobe may have been too smart for his own good and Phil's psych tactics probably weren't as effective.

I think the degradation of basketball coaching at the youth level is a big part of that. Talented guys seem to have bigger and bigger egos as time has gone by and are less coachable.

Phil did say in one of his books that Kobe was the most uncoachable player he's ever coached.

[Kblaze8855]

Shaq was washed up in 2004. Shaq wanted the max..



You say that as if he wasn’t one of the narrowest votes ever from being mvp in 05, didn’t win the ring in 06, and then be the centerpiece of the trades that let them cut enough cap to sign the big 3. Making Shaq the highest paid player in 05 and 06(1 million behind KG in 07) worked out nicely. If not for the knee in the thigh from Jermaine O’Neal they may have won 2 with a Wade most would say wasn’t better than Kobe at the time.


Paying Shaq seems to have worked out nicely short term and long. You contend while you can and set yourself up for the future. Now if it cost the Lakers Kobe? Different story. They played it for the long term and gave up possibly winning a couple more immediately….but they went on to win a couple more anyway. Their long plan got them Bynum who was flipped for Dwight.

Both teams did fine. Heat won 3 and LA won 2 and had their big 3 plan come apart but…good effort.

Both paths proved successful.

[Full Court]

Note that I did not say he was the greatest ever, just that that is what (I think) his goal was. As a Celtic fan I was never a true fan of Bryant but I have always respected him, though there was a time I wouldn't have said that so openly. He was a great competitor. There is no shame in not being the absolute greatest ever. A lot of you have lost the ability to respect a guy that "just" wins 5 rings because he was the second best player on his team for three of them. It's a bit stupid. Kobe was great. No he wasn't Jordan. You and I weren't even Smush Parker and yet still people talk ish.

Yeah, I was following you. But the point I was trying to make is that if you want to be considered the best ever, you don't remove yourself from under someone else's shadow - you overshadow THEM. So if that was indeed Kobe's thinking (get away from Shaq so as to be the greatest), then in my opinion it was misguided.

[ArbitraryWater]

I just thought I'd throw the Bran one in there as well I've cited those clutch numbers in the past to highlight that KB is actually not that inefficient nor selfish in close games since you implied that he essentially does not pass up the rock at the end of games as he wants to make the game-winning shot like MJ. Both him and Jordan set up their teammates for clutch shots in big Playoff games.

Here's another example of KB giving up the ball & setting up his teammate in the biggest moment in the Finals


https://youtu.be/nnoBRLskL-E

(look at the 2nd shot, in OT)

KB ruined his image by chucking the ball on a bunch of bad/mediocre teams in his prime & at the end of his career, but when they were playing for championships he was more of a team player than people give him credit for.


yeah, and you ignored all other clutch stats while hanging on to those 2 clutch windows as definitives.

I remember. It was pretty embarrassing.

Kobe is pretty tragic in clutch stats in the playoffs. Get over it.

[FKAri]

Yeah, I was following you. But the point I was trying to make is that if you want to be considered the best ever, you don't remove yourself from under someone else's shadow - you overshadow THEM. So if that was indeed Kobe's thinking (get away from Shaq so as to be the greatest), then in my opinion it was misguided.

Not necessarily. It could've been MJ in place of Kobe on those teams but in the finals you still go through Shaq because he had favorable matchups in those games. And that's the point. Kobe didn't want to win that way. You can be the GOAT and still realize that at times someone else might have the hot hand or the advantageous matchup. If winning at all costs is what really matters to you more than personal glory.

[Axe]

Not necessarily. It could've been MJ in place of Kobe on those teams but in the finals you still go through Shaq because he had favorable matchups in those games. And that's the point. Kobe didn't want to win that way. You can be the GOAT and still realize that at times someone else might have the hot hand or the advantageous matchup. If winning at all costs is what really matters to you more than personal glory.
Pippen elevated jordan into a winner. Those clueless casuals blurt a lot of crap but in reality, they don't really know a lot of things lmao.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Yeah, I was following you. But the point I was trying to make is that if you want to be considered the best ever, you don't remove yourself from under someone else's shadow - you overshadow THEM. So if that was indeed Kobe's thinking (get away from Shaq so as to be the greatest), then in my opinion it was misguided.

No guard is going to overshadow prime Shaq. If you can average 30 on 45% you should defer to your teammate that can average 30 on 55%. That was part of the "problem" that lead to three championships. I am not going to talk about whether or not Bryant made them get rid of shaw but do long as Shaq was Shaq he was going to be the better scoring option on most plays.

[Full Court]

Pippen elevated jordan into a winner. Those clueless casuals blurt a lot of crap but in reality, they don't really know a lot of things lmao.

This fuming dingus still has Jordan living his his head 20 years after retirement.


:roll: What a loser.

:lebroncry:

[Axe]

^^Oof what a bitch fit. Looks like i've struck another thin ass nerve of his. :yaohappy:

[iamgine]

Was just listening to Isiah Thomas on All The Smoke and he made some comments about Kobe which have been lost to history.

He mentioned how when Kobe was publicly demanding trades and blowing up teams he had a meeting with NY (who Thomas was running at the time). Thomas asked Kobe why he'd have wanted to leave Shaq, as it made no sense to him (a true winner at all costs). Brick explained he has to win by himself otherwise he'd be remembered as a 2nd option and underrated all-time.

Doesn't this directly contradict his mythology of winning at all costs? Who cares if you're winning as the 2nd option, you're winning.

Meanwhile, his contemporary Tim Duncan (who worked half as hard to achieve more) willingly allowed other players to step up if it meant his team and coach (both of whom have won nothing without him) had a better chance of winning (Kobe's coach has more rings without Kobe than Pop has period, and LA won a title less than 5 years after his retirement tour ended). He even agreed to sit on the bench in crucial plays because that's what his coach asked (it backfired everytime because he has top 3 impact all-time).

That's a true winner. That's a man comfortable in his own skin (something Bryant never was, as evidenced by the fact that he copied others like MJ - who Duncan stated never impressed him - and AI).

No one is a winner at all costs. If they did, they would take minimum salary. And jump to the best team every season.

[SATAN]

The Kobe Bryant mythology is some of the most ridiculous shit in sports history. He was good but his fans are completely delusional and toxic.

[kawhileonard2]

He used to destroy Lebron head to head.

[ImKobe]

yeah, and you ignored all other clutch stats while hanging on to those 2 clutch windows as definitives.

I remember. It was pretty embarrassing.

Kobe is pretty tragic in clutch stats in the playoffs. Get over it.

He's tragic if you cherry-pick one category (last shot fg%) and ignore all the other parts of crunch time.. just like you clowns do with Steph.

[ImKobe]

Phil did say in one of his books that Kobe was the most uncoachable player he's ever coached.

Yet he also said in '01 that KB was the best all-around player he's ever coached because of his ability to run the offense & make other players on the team happy.


You say that as if he wasn’t one of the narrowest votes ever from being mvp in 05, didn’t win the ring in 06, and then be the centerpiece of the trades that let them cut enough cap to sign the big 3. Making Shaq the highest paid player in 05 and 06(1 million behind KG in 07) worked out nicely. If not for the knee in the thigh from Jermaine O’Neal they may have won 2 with a Wade most would say wasn’t better than Kobe at the time.


Paying Shaq seems to have worked out nicely short term and long. You contend while you can and set yourself up for the future. Now if it cost the Lakers Kobe? Different story. They played it for the long term and gave up possibly winning a couple more immediately….but they went on to win a couple more anyway. Their long plan got them Bynum who was flipped for Dwight.

Both teams did fine. Heat won 3 and LA won 2 and had their big 3 plan come apart but…good effort.

Both paths proved successful.

This had nothing to do with him and Shaq at the time. Shaq in LA was gaining weight and wasn't taking the game seriously, which led to his decline at the time. What he did after the trade doesn't really matter in this context, and even in Miami his numbers weren't all that much better than they were in '04. There's a gap between prime MDE Shaq and the '04 and beyond version. Also, Wade was on a rookie contract in Miami until the '08 season so they could afford to pay Shaq.

[red1]

kobe was a true GOAT


RIP legend

[999Guy]

Kobe was mostly a myth. His defensive prowess, BBIQ, leadership qualities, mental toughness, clutch ability, all fabricated on a very high level.

Really shows the IQ of the average fan that he could be so revered in this way while transparently being very contrived and having relatively (to all time greats) little substance to his game

The actual essence of basketball, or even life is immaterial to them.

[Full Court]

^^Oof what a bitch fit. Looks like i've struck another thin ass nerve of his. :yaohappy:

Our cute little merman is on a soy milk-infused bitch fit again.

:roll:

[Axe]

kobe was a true GOAT


RIP legend
Agreed. Legends neverhttps://i.ibb.co/rGTfpKq/IMG-20230312-120638.jpg (https://i.ibb.co/tH5jfVg/IMG-20220906-091426.jpg) die. He will remain in people's hearts.