Undeniable Truths About Tim Duncan

[Nowitness]

https://youtu.be/xoofdnP5erA

Don’t get much content on the greatest PF to ever play the game, but this was released recently on SA Spurs official YT channel. Hopefully it will preserve the fact that;

He’s the best at his position by a wider margin than any other player is at theirs
Was the best player of his generation (ahead of Shaq and Kobe)
Was the best leader, teammate and winner since Bill Russell
Was the most coachable superstar ever who willingly sacrificed his own game for others
Played for a team and coach who have won exactly nothing without him, and that this myth of ‘best organisation in basketball’ was 100% because he played for them. That title lasted from 1997-2016. Before him they had 5 coaches in 8 seasons, couldn’t handle superstar egos and sought permission to leave Texas. During his reign the only issue that comes out of SA is Parker shagging Brent Barry’s wife. After him we have the Kawhi disaster, LMA threaten to retire, Parker walk in FA, DeRozan/Murray become All-NBA type players after leaving and another round of tanking for a generational talent.
Top 3 longevity
Top 7 peak
Greatest title run ever (2003)
Least amount of help of any top 15 player (only player in modern history to win more than 1 title without a CURRENT All-NBA teammate, and he did it 4 times)
Top 3 defensive player ever
Best offensive player (and player period) on 4 title teams, bested only by MJ and Russell
Last rookie to make an All-NBA team (and he was 1st team and 1st defence)
Most combined All-NBA/All-Defensive team selections

Cemented as the 4th greatest player of all time.

[Axe]

Inb4 an ImKobe meltdown

[SouBeachTalents]

He’s the best at his position by a wider margin than any other player is at theirs
He spent more time playing center, I always found this to be a weasely way to ensure he's in every all-time starting lineup. If he was correctly listed as a center, this statement would be unequivocally incorrect


Top 7 peak
Jordan
LeBron
Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem
Wilt
Bird


Greatest title run ever (2003)
It was an all-time run, but I'm taking both of Hakeem's over it


Least amount of help of any top 15 player (only player in modern history to win more than 1 title without a CURRENT All-NBA teammate, and he did it 4 times)
Hakeem inarguably had worse help. Duncan played with 2 HOF's for like 15 years, he also had an additional HOF at the beginning of his career and another one at the end of it.


Best offensive player (and player period) on 4 title teams, bested only by MJ and Russell
Manu was better than him offensively in the '05 title run.


Cemented as the 4th greatest player of all time
I'd wager the majority of ranking don't have him top 4, he's more like 6th or 7th.

[Big164]

Hes not even top 10. The only reason we even talk about him is because he is “listed” as PF instead of a C.

Shaq, Kareem, Russell, Chamberlain & Olajuwon are all Superior.

[1987_Lakers]

Hes not even top 10. The only reason we even talk about him is because he is “listed” as PF instead of a C.

Shaq, Kareem, Russell, Chamberlain & Olajuwon are all Superior.

lol, that is false.

[Im Still Ballin]

*HOT TAKE ALERT*

Kevin McHale was a better offensive player. Softer touch, superior post-up game, more range, and a stronger free-throw shooter. The passing is negligible.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Being the greatest pf ever is definitely a technicality but as great as he was it's not that important that its a technicality. Still top 10 all time.

[RRR3]

*HOT TAKE ALERT*

Kevin McHale was a better offensive player. Softer touch, superior post-up game, more range, and a stronger free-throw shooter. The passing is negligible.
Jesus you’re madly in love with McHale.

[SouBeachTalents]

*HOT TAKE ALERT*

Kevin McHale was a better offensive player. Softer touch, superior post-up game, more range, and a stronger free-throw shooter. The passing is negligible.
Nah, Duncan was definitely a better passer.

[Nowitness]

To those stating Duncan was a C, from what timeframe do you generally regard this?

In truth, he wasn’t playing it until 09. Measurables dictate position more than style, and he was routinely playing with dudes just as tall, but far slower and heavier than him.

Second question; assuming you think Duncan was a PF up to at least 2005, had he retired in 05 would you still have him as the best PF ever? Because I would.

[tpols]

Duncan was great but they were contenders and champions even when he got old. It doesn't have to be all black and white. The spurs were clearly one of the best coached and greatest passing and shooting teams of all time.

[Im Still Ballin]

Nah, Duncan was definitely a better passer.

Got to watch the footage - assist totals don't tell the whole story. Duncan's usage rate and time of possession were much higher than McHale's. There's not much difference in passing ability per the footage.

Always have to consider the personnel, role, and system a player is in. Kevin developed into more of a creator when he was promoted from a sixth-man to a starter. He became quite adept at throwing high-low passes toward the end of his career as his range expanded.

[Full Court]

4th all time is a little high, but he's definitely top 8. And ahead of Lebron.

[Jasper]

To those stating Duncan was a C, from what timeframe do you generally regard this?

In truth, he wasn’t playing it until 09. Measurables dictate position more than style, and he was routinely playing with dudes just as tall, but far slower and heavier than him. If style dictates it,

Second question; assuming you think Duncan was a PF up to at least 2005, had he retired in 05 would you still have him as the. Eat PF ever? Because I would.

correct.
He is the best PF that ever played.
But if Giannis gets 3 rings or more... we would have an argument who is the best.

One thing looking back at Pop's coaching career ... besides Robinson , Tim Duncan made POP.
Think of that ... and many consider Pop the coach of all time.

puts things into perspective.

[Kblaze8855]

Duncan was great but they were contenders and champions even when he got old. It doesn't have to be all black and white. The spurs were clearly one of the best coached and greatest passing and shooting teams of all time.


And if Duncan had a Shaq like personality demanding to be fed instead of happily allowing the team to transition to an everybody eats motion offense in his late 20s when he was still this guy at 38:



https://youtu.be/3UndxLsxv7k




any chance that great passing team of unselfish team first confident role players and young stars doesn’t develop that way?

[Wardell Curry]

Uncle Timmy might just be the actual goat.

[tpols]

And if Duncan had a Shaq like personality demanding to be fed instead of happily allowing the team to transition to an everybody eats motion offense in his late 20s when he was still this guy at 38:



https://youtu.be/3UndxLsxv7k




any chance that great passing team of unselfish team first confident role players and young stars doesn’t develop that way?

Duncan's unselfishness is one of his best attributes. Doesn't take away from the team balling offensively and breaking Finals records when his offense was no longer even all star level.

[Kblaze8855]

Not shooting much and not having all star level offense aren’t really the same thing to me. He put up 15/10 on 57% shooting that last finals. They won 4 blowouts with exquisite team ball and defense.

He no doubt had the clout to ask for another shot or two in the blowouts. Pop would absolutely have called the plays to get him the ball if he wanted it. Nobody on that team looks him off when Tim says “Get me the ball”.

Would his offense be all star level if he made a couple extra layups his team didn’t need to win those blowouts?

Or was his offense just playing in sync with the young players his nature allowed to flourish?

[ImKobe]

He played at the 5 full-time since '09 and played at Center more than at PF in his prime as well. Even if you want to make that argument, prime KG was just as good and would have had the same career as TD had he been in his place in San Antonio instead of wasting his prime in Minnesota. KG won a DPOY and 4x rebounding titles and actually played at the 4 for 67% of his career compared to 36% for Duncan and was far more versatile on both ends of the court.

KB was voted by far the best player of the 2000s and smacked him around in the POs 4 out of 5 times in that decade.

Never won B2B titles (thank Kobe & Ray Allen for that one)

Won Finals MVP averaging 20.6 ppg on 47%TS (Manu was the real MVP & bailed them out) in '05

Lost in the 1st round as a #1 seed on a 61-win team and he was the main reason for that loss (Manu played with a broken arm but was still great offensively, TD got shut down bad and abused on the other end).

Was drafted to a team with prime D-Rob (instant contenders, Spurs tanked a season for him but were a 50-60-win team for most of the 90s with D-Rob), got Manu & TP once Robinson was washed, got Kawhi, Diaw, Green etc once Manu & TP fell off

Spurs still had the #1 defense and still won 61 games when he retired. Spurs continued their Playoffs streak without him & Kawhi. Spurs in '17 were in the WCF and up 20+ on the undefeated KD-Curry GS squad before Kawhi's injury without Duncan.

He's a top 10 ATG due to team success but gets vastly overrated by people who either hate KB or by people who haven't seen enough of his prime years.

[Spurs m8]

Definitely ahead of LeFraud

LeFraud might just crack top 10...maybe

[tpols]

Not shooting much and not having all star level offense aren’t really the same thing to me. He put up 15/10 on 57% shooting that last finals. They won 4 blowouts with exquisite team ball and defense.

He no doubt had the clout to ask for another shot or two in the blowouts. Pop would absolutely have called the plays to get him the ball if he wanted it. Nobody on that team looks him off when Tim says “Get me the ball”.

Would his offense be all star level if he made a couple extra layups his team didn’t need to win those blowouts?

Or was his offense just playing in sync with the young players his nature allowed to flourish?

He just...wasn't a dominant offensive player at all when the spurs offense was at arguably its peak. I get what you're saying but he just wasn't the reason for it. It was a coaching and team effort that made those 3pt centric offenses so good.

[ShawkFactory]

He played at the 5 full-time since '09 and played at Center more than at PF in his prime as well. Even if you want to make that argument, prime KG was just as good and would have had the same career as TD had he been in his place in San Antonio instead of wasting his prime in Minnesota. KG won a DPOY and 4x rebounding titles and actually played at the 4 for 67% of his career compared to 36% for Duncan and was far more versatile on both ends of the court.

KB was voted by far the best player of the 2000s and smacked him around in the POs 4 out of 5 times in that decade.

Never won B2B titles (thank Kobe & Ray Allen for that one)

Won Finals MVP averaging 20.6 ppg on 47%TS (Manu was the real MVP & bailed them out) in '05

Lost in the 1st round as a #1 seed on a 61-win team and he was the main reason for that loss (Manu played with a broken arm but was still great offensively, TD got shut down bad and abused on the other end).

Was drafted to a team with prime D-Rob (instant contenders, Spurs tanked a season for him but were a 50-60-win team for most of the 90s with D-Rob), got Manu & TP once Robinson was washed, got Kawhi, Diaw, Green etc once Manu & TP fell off

Spurs still had the #1 defense and still won 61 games when he retired. Spurs continued their Playoffs streak without him & Kawhi. Spurs in '17 were in the WCF and up 20+ on the undefeated KD-Curry GS squad before Kawhi's injury without Duncan.

He's a top 10 ATG due to team success but gets vastly overrated by people who either hate KB or by people who haven't seen enough of his prime years.

Loving Duncan as a player has nothing to do with Kobe. It’s actually the opposite of what you say.

The only people who hate on Duncan at all or underrate him are Kobe fans. Case in point here.

[DMAVS41]

He just...wasn't a dominant offensive player at all when the spurs offense was at arguably its peak. I get what you're saying but he just wasn't the reason for it. It was a coaching and team effort that made those 3pt centric offenses so good.

He wasn't as dominant offensively, for sure, but I think the point he's making is that Duncan could have easily averaged like 22 to 24 a game if he set out to do that like a lot of other stars do. That is what gets hard with stats as players age a little...sometimes the stats lie a bit because truly all-time greats can go get 25 a game really on command...they just might hurt the team in the process.

Duncan, like many stars before him, could have focused more on his stats...played a little less defense...been a little more selfish...and averaged 20 plus a game post the 07 season. He didn't...and I don't think that makes him worse...especially when his defense remained elite so late in his career.

Duncan, for me, was the best player post Jordan until Lebron hit his prime/peak...and still doesn't get enough credit on a lot of lists imo.

[tpols]

He wasn't as dominant offensively, for sure, but I think the point he's making is that Duncan could have easily averaged like 22 to 24 a game if he set out to do that like a lot of other stars do. That is what gets hard with stats as players age a little...sometimes the stats lie a bit because truly all-time greats can go get 25 a game really on command...they just might hurt the team in the process.

Duncan, like many stars before him, could have focused more on his stats...played a little less defense...been a little more selfish...and averaged 20 plus a game post the 07 season. He didn't...and I don't think that makes him worse...especially when his defense remained elite so late in his career.

Duncan, for me, was the best player post Jordan until Lebron hit his prime/peak...and still doesn't get enough credit on a lot of lists imo.

I dont know about 24 a game but I get what you guys are saying. Given how explosive their 3pt shooting was I think Duncan taking all those extra shots would actually hurt the team. So his unselfishness was very valuable. Doesn't take away from what those shooters actually did though. Danny Green and steph curry are the all time leaders in 3pt makes for a finals series.

[ImKobe]

Loving Duncan as a player has nothing to do with Kobe. It’s actually the opposite of what you say.

The only people who hate on Duncan at all or underrate him are Kobe fans. Case in point here.

Lakers/KB fans who went through that rivalry still hate the Spurs & TD to an extent so you're not completely wrong on that one, but it goes both ways.

[baudkarma]

Not shooting much and not having all star level offense aren’t really the same thing to me. He put up 15/10 on 57% shooting that last finals. They won 4 blowouts with exquisite team ball and defense.

He no doubt had the clout to ask for another shot or two in the blowouts. Pop would absolutely have called the plays to get him the ball if he wanted it. Nobody on that team looks him off when Tim says “Get me the ball”.

Would his offense be all star level if he made a couple extra layups his team didn’t need to win those blowouts?

Or was his offense just playing in sync with the young players his nature allowed to flourish?

I read something in the 1999 SI issue where Duncan and DRob were named "Sportsmen of the Year" that struck a chord.

The author of the article said that Duncan wants to win because he wants to win. Which is not as obvious as it seems. All athletes want to win, but often there are underlying motives. They might want that big contract to set them up for life. They might want the victory parade. They might want that ring. They might want the approval of their father or their uncle or their big brother who said they'd never be good enough. The point is that once they get that contract, that ring, whatever, the drive to succeed diminishes a little. The author posited that Duncan is one of those rare individuals who wants to win just because he wants to win. If that means giving up touches to his teammates, if it means conserving his energy on offense so he can shut down the other teams best player on the other end (2007) he's not even going to think twice about it.

[Nowitness]

Lakers/KB fans who went through that rivalry still hate the Spurs & TD to an extent so you're not completely wrong on that one, but it goes both ways.

Not really. I believe Duncan clears Kobe but I get opposite arguments, but you know full well there isn’t a soul out there who is hysterical about Duncan. A good amount of Kobes fans are enamoured with the dude and lack the cognitive skills to engage in real discussion about him, instead resorting to mythology, iconography and narrative to boost his all time rankings. They actually believe he is the GOAT and will claim it’s justified because he worked hard and because people yell Kobe when they throw something in a trash can. Duncan doesn’t have that.

[fourkicks44]

Not really. I believe Duncan clears Kobe but I get opposite arguments, but you know full well there isn’t a soul out there who is hysterical about Duncan. A good amount of Kobes fans are enamoured with the dude and lack the cognitive skills to engage in real discussion about him, instead resorting to mythology, iconography and narrative to boost his all time rankings. They actually believe he is the GOAT and will claim it’s justified because he worked hard and because people yell Kobe when they throw something in a trash can. Duncan doesn’t have that.

I yell Duncan when I throw something in the trash can when it hits the wall first and then goes in.

[tpols]

Not really. I believe Duncan clears Kobe but I get opposite arguments, but you know full well there isn’t a soul out there who is hysterical about Duncan. A good amount of Kobes fans are enamoured with the dude and lack the cognitive skills to engage in real discussion about him, instead resorting to mythology, iconography and narrative to boost his all time rankings. They actually believe he is the GOAT and will claim it’s justified because he worked hard and because people yell Kobe when they throw something in a trash can. Duncan doesn’t have that.

For all kobes greediness in old age as compared to Duncan, his offensive peak was demonstrably higher. You guys want to talk Duncan being unselfish. How'd that work out in 2008 or 2001? When kobe obliterated him with his offense prime for prime?

Probably should've taken some extra shots if he was that good at it. His offense was never GOAT level though. His defense and intangibles were.

[FKAri]

Not really. I believe Duncan clears Kobe but I get opposite arguments, but you know full well there isn’t a soul out there who is hysterical about Duncan. A good amount of Kobes fans are enamoured with the dude and lack the cognitive skills to engage in real discussion about him, instead resorting to mythology, iconography and narrative to boost his all time rankings. They actually believe he is the GOAT and will claim it’s justified because he worked hard and because people yell Kobe when they throw something in a trash can. Duncan doesn’t have that.

Ya this is where the on court capabilities of a player gets blurred by the entertainment aspect of sports. Kobe elicited more emotion and captured the imagination of more fans. I think the two are roughly the same tier player but I can admit at least that.

[Nowitness]

For all kobes greediness in old age as compared to Duncan, his offensive peak was demonstrably higher. You guys want to talk Duncan being unselfish. How'd that work out in 2008 or 2001? When kobe obliterated him with his offense prime for prime?

Probably should've taken some extra shots if he was that good at it. His offense was never GOAT level though. His defense and intangibles were.

You know Antonio Daniels was his 2nd leading scorer in 01, right? Duncan was doubled every touch.

Who has ever said he was a GOAT level offensive player? I simply stated as his own teams best offensive player he won more titles than anyone bar MJ/Russel (and double the amount Kobe won).

08 was Kobes most important series ever. It still leaves him with one series win over Duncan without another top 10 player all time in his prime being the primary focus for the defence.

[Kblaze8855]

He just...wasn't a dominant offensive player at all when the spurs offense was at arguably its peak. I get what you're saying but he just wasn't the reason for it. It was a coaching and team effort that made those 3pt centric offenses so good.

When the most significant and respected player in the history of the franchise who has won multiple rings, and MVPs, pretty much running a modified four down post play over and over and over, willingly reduces his touches so the ball can be spread around to people considerably less talented than he is for the greater good you don’t find that player is it all responsible for the immense teamwork that develops?

Next time you wonder why players are selfish and concerned about their own numbers and status more than the team……remember this. This is why. This is why aging great players, who still have something in the tank don’t graciously step aside and embrace equal opportunity offense. Fans legitimately think that shooting less when you have the clout to do whatever you want is something to disparage even when the result is what they themselves call historically dominant offense.

Doing the right thing gets you discredited even when you win because even the fans who consider themselves above the casuals want to see the numbers. Let him demand seven more post ups. He will absolutely get them. He would absolutely score more. The team would absolutely be worse and people would think he was better at the time trying to carry scrubs. Because that’s what selfish stars make an awful lot of competent teammates look like. Leonard and Parker were only scoring 16 or 17 a game with a completely unselfish Duncan. Let him demand a few more shots. They score 15 a game while he looks like the heroic leader going down firing. Fans love an efficient shooting loser. You get to ask what else he could’ve done. A lot of times what he could’ve done was spend a lot less time getting the ball in his sweet spot so his teammates can get it in theirs and form a much better team when it counts.

But not every leader is Tim Duncan.

[DMAVS41]

I dont know about 24 a game but I get what you guys are saying. Given how explosive their 3pt shooting was I think Duncan taking all those extra shots would actually hurt the team. So his unselfishness was very valuable. Doesn't take away from what those shooters actually did though. Danny Green and steph curry are the all time leaders in 3pt makes for a finals series.

It would simply depend on how stubborn or selfish that version of Duncan would be. Demanding 5 or so more shots a game is essentially what other stars have done or just did so and nobody told them to stop.

Of course not, Duncan had great help and coaching most of his career and that allowed him to have the success he did...he also was by far the most important factor for the sustained success the Spurs had. Both can be true.

[tpols]

You know Antonio Daniels was his 2nd leading scorer in 01, right? Duncan was doubled every touch.

Who has ever said he was a GOAT level offensive player? I simply stated as his own teams best offensive player he won more titles than anyone bar MJ/Russel (and double the amount Kobe won).

08 was Kobes most important series ever. It still leaves him with one series win over Duncan without another top 10 player all time in his prime being the primary focus for the defence.

That's sort of the point though. The number 1 argument from a Kobe hater is that he couldn't win without Shaq. He still easily beat Duncan prime for prime without Shaq. And so did dirk in 2006.

So instead of only appreciating unselfishness you should also appreciate dominance. Michael Jordan was far more selfish than Tim Duncan. Yet he was still better.

[Axe]

He played at the 5 full-time since '09 and played at Center more than at PF in his prime as well. Even if you want to make that argument, prime KG was just as good and would have had the same career as TD had he been in his place in San Antonio instead of wasting his prime in Minnesota. KG won a DPOY and 4x rebounding titles and actually played at the 4 for 67% of his career compared to 36% for Duncan and was far more versatile on both ends of the court.

KB was voted by far the best player of the 2000s and smacked him around in the POs 4 out of 5 times in that decade.

Never won B2B titles (thank Kobe & Ray Allen for that one)

Won Finals MVP averaging 20.6 ppg on 47%TS (Manu was the real MVP & bailed them out) in '05

Lost in the 1st round as a #1 seed on a 61-win team and he was the main reason for that loss (Manu played with a broken arm but was still great offensively, TD got shut down bad and abused on the other end).

Was drafted to a team with prime D-Rob (instant contenders, Spurs tanked a season for him but were a 50-60-win team for most of the 90s with D-Rob), got Manu & TP once Robinson was washed, got Kawhi, Diaw, Green etc once Manu & TP fell off

Spurs still had the #1 defense and still won 61 games when he retired. Spurs continued their Playoffs streak without him & Kawhi. Spurs in '17 were in the WCF and up 20+ on the undefeated KD-Curry GS squad before Kawhi's injury without Duncan.

He's a top 10 ATG due to team success but gets vastly overrated by people who either hate KB or by people who haven't seen enough of his prime years.
And here he comes fellas. Lmao.

[DMAVS41]

For all kobes greediness in old age as compared to Duncan, his offensive peak was demonstrably higher. You guys want to talk Duncan being unselfish. How'd that work out in 2008 or 2001? When kobe obliterated him with his offense prime for prime?

Probably should've taken some extra shots if he was that good at it. His offense was never GOAT level though. His defense and intangibles were.

Losing to Kobe and Kobe/Shaq is nothing to be ashamed of. You act like Duncan should have won every series he played to prove something to you. How did it work out for Kobe/Shaq in 99 and 03? How did it work out for their entire careers? Duncan's unselfishness allowed the Spurs to have one of the best runs in NBA history from the day Duncan got there. Essentially 20 years of 50 plus wins and consistently contending.

We really going down that road? Duncan getting to play 8 years with a player as good as Shaq? Come on now...we all know who wins more.

[tpols]

It would simply depend on how stubborn or selfish that version of Duncan would be. Demanding 5 or so more shots a game is essentially what other stars have done or just did so and nobody told them to stop.

Of course not, Duncan had great help and coaching most of his career and that allowed him to have the success he did...he also was by far the most important factor for the sustained success the Spurs had. Both can be true.

My first post in this thread was saying it aint black and white either way. Tim Duncan can be an all time great player but also have had great help. The OP is making it seem like it only goes one way.

[DMAVS41]

That's sort of the point though. The number 1 argument from a Kobe hater is that he couldn't win without Shaq. He still easily beat Duncan prime for prime without Shaq. And so did dirk in 2006.

So instead of only appreciating unselfishness you should also appreciate dominance. Michael Jordan was far more selfish than Tim Duncan. Yet he was still better.

Again, losing to Kobe at his peak and Dirk at his peak...is nothing to be ashamed of. You keep saying this as if that is a knock on Duncan. Of course there are more ways to win...nobody is acting like there isn't.

You are talking about him losing to some of the best players of all-time playing their best basketball...and in 08...that Spurs team was hardly loaded and Manu was hurt in that series as well.

[ShawkFactory]

That's sort of the point though. The number 1 argument from a Kobe hater is that he couldn't win without Shaq. He still easily beat Duncan prime for prime without Shaq. And so did dirk in 2006.

So instead of only appreciating unselfishness you should also appreciate dominance. Michael Jordan was far more selfish than Tim Duncan. Yet he was still better.

My how things would be different if Manu didn’t foul dirk in game 7 in 06.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan also averaged 32 a game in the 06 series against Dirk. 5 more points per game...and I'm biased, but I actually thought Dirk was just as impactful as Duncan despite scoring less. But that is besides the point, doesn't really help your argument when you are saying he should of scored more, but he scored way more than the guy he lost to.

:confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

That's sort of the point though. The number 1 argument from a Kobe hater is that he couldn't win without Shaq. He still easily beat Duncan prime for prime without Shaq. And so did dirk in 2006.

So instead of only appreciating unselfishness you should also appreciate dominance. Michael Jordan was far more selfish than Tim Duncan. Yet he was still better.


He was about as dominant as he ever was in one of those losses you mention.



https://youtu.be/QbEWxeenR84

I’m game 7.

For nothing. Because Manu fouls Dirk shooting a layup down 3 with like 20 seconds:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SerpentineBitterChicken-size_restricted.gif






That we hold such losses against him is just….sports. Fans don’t know what they want. Score and lose its empty and you were “easily” beat. Don’t score as much and win with teamwork…you weren’t dominant.

Need to win and score a lot even when the best path to winning is scoring less. Want him to limit his teammates so it looks harder? Need to win every year to justify playing team ball?

Is 5 rings not enough success?

[tpols]

My how things would be different if Manu didn’t foul dirk in game 7 in 06.

Dirk was working with far less talent and still won. From a superstar offense definitely matters more. Duncan is great but to act like he solely made the spurs? Nah... that would take away too much from popovich, and tony parker and manu... and even David Robinson who still had elite metrics in 1999. Not to mention healthy kawhi as well. OP is making it sound like he did everything himself. That simply isn't true.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk was working with far less talent and still won. From a superstar offense definitely matters more. Duncan is great but to act like he solely made the spurs? Nah... that would take away too much from popovich, and tony parker and manu... and even David Robinson who still had elite metrics in 1999. Not to mention healthy kawhi as well. OP is making it sound like he did everything himself. That simply isn't true.

I'm the biggest Dirk fan in the world...and Dirk was not working with "far less"....he had less, imo, but not far less.

Again though, Duncan scored way more than Dirk in that series. But you are remembering that Dirk was as good or better...I agree...but that makes our point. The ppg stats for any all-time great can be misleading at times because the circumstances might dictate scoring less to win more. Take that series...Dirk could have probably averaged 35 a game if that is what he set out to do. But they would have lost...and to Blaze's point...we'd be saying he didn't have enough help to win...but we live in the universe where he actually did win that series.

[SouBeachTalents]

My how things would be different if Manu didn’t foul dirk in game 7 in 06.
For a guy with 5 rings, Duncan got unlucky on several ocassions :lol

Fisher's .4
Manu's foul
Allen's 3
CP3's GW

That's a play away from legitimately 2-3 more rings.

[ShawkFactory]

Dirk was working with far less talent and still won. From a superstar offense definitely matters more. Duncan is great but to act like he solely made the spurs? Nah... that would take away too much from popovich, and tony parker and manu... and even David Robinson who still had elite metrics in 1999. Not to mention healthy kawhi as well. OP is making it sound like he did everything himself. That simply isn't true.

Bit of a stretch.

[Prometheus]

I yell Duncan when I throw something in the trash can when it hits the wall first and then goes in.

:oldlol:

[Nowitness]

Dirk was working with far less talent and still won. From a superstar offense definitely matters more. Duncan is great but to act like he solely made the spurs? Nah... that would take away too much from popovich, and tony parker and manu... and even David Robinson who still had elite metrics in 1999. Not to mention healthy kawhi as well. OP is making it sound like he did everything himself. That simply isn't true.

Again not once was it said that he won by himself. It was stated that he had the least help of any top 10 player. He still had very good help, and later in his career great help.

But he didn’t have a single teammate make All-NBA from 01-08. There isn’t another player who ever won more than 1 title without having another current top 15 player by their side (Hakeem included, Drexler was in 95). Apart from Duncan.

Dirk for most of his career did have weaker help, but he also hasn’t achieved anything close to what Duncan has. He has had transcended seasons (06 especially), but it always comes with the caveat of he was arguably his own teams worst starting defender and passer. Duncan was his teams best scorer, defender in 99/03/05/07 and you can even argue passer for all 4 (certainly best in 03/05). If volume scoring is what you value most come playoff time, do you seriously believe had SA said to Duncan don’t stress on defence or involving others he couldn’t average 30?

[tpols]

But he didn’t have a single teammate make All-NBA from 01-08.

This isnt even true.Manu and Parker have a combined 6 All NBA selections in their careers.

Manu in the 2005 playoffs had a super star level of play basically. And in 2004 he knocked Duncan out of the Olympics with team Argentina with another dominant performance. He was an awesome player.

Tony Parker also had a beast run in the 2007 playoffs and was getting MVP votes a little past 2010 and making All NBA every year. So even by your own classifications what you're saying doesn't make sense.

[Nowitness]

This isnt even true.Manu and Parker have a combined 6 All NBA selections in their careers.

Manu in the 2005 playoffs had a super star level of play basically. And in 2004 he knocked Duncan out of the Olympics with team Argentina with another dominant performance. He was an awesome player.

Tony Parker also had a beast run in the 2007 playoffs and was getting MVP votes a little past 2010 and making All NBA every year. So even by your own classifications what you're saying doesn't make sense.

You’re either misunderstanding or purposely ignoring what was said.

I’ve never said he NEVER had an All-NBA teammate. I said from 01-08 no teammate made All-NBA. How someone plays varies year to year, and for the bulk of Duncan’s offensive prime he was paired with fairly mediocre offensive help (if you watch old games from 00-03 you’ll head every commentator blast Pop and RC for failing to provide legit offensive help and bemoan the archaic system SA ran which was little more that make sure Duncan touches it every time and be the decision maker).

Context matters; Manu was great in 05, but teams wanted him with the ball. Larry Brown himself said he doesn’t regret the strategy of doubling Duncan almost every touch and making someone else win it. Same for Parker in 07. If you go by the entire playoff run Duncan was clearly better than Manu in 05 and Parker in 07.

After 07, Manu and Parker were star players. They made all 6 of those All-NBA teams between the years of 08-14, and their rise in production and responsibility is what made Duncan’s latter year teams all time great. But before that, they weren’t top 15 players, which as I’ve routinely pointed out, is the most consistent way to win, seeing as no other player in modern history has won multiple titles without a CURRENT All-NBA teammate by their side. Manu making it in 08 has zero bearing on how he played in 03. Parker getting MVP votes in 2012 has zero bearing on how he played in 06, unless of course you’re gonna claim Dirk is trash because he failed to even make the playoffs with Luka?

[tpols]

I’ve never said he NEVER had an All-NBA teammate. I said from 01-08 no teammate made All-NBA.

Which doesn't mean anything since Manus by far best playoff run was in 2005 when he didn't make an All NBA team. Tony parkers by far best playoff run was in 2007 when he didn't make an All NBA team. So it's an arbitrary classification. Parker and Manu were the best players in those playoff runs repectively manu for 2005 and parker for 2007. And we know Manu had the chops to be as good as Duncan because he lit him up H2H in 2004.


https://youtu.be/SqDAyVDpB90

[ShawkFactory]

Which doesn't mean anything since Manus by far best playoff run was in 2005 when he didn't make an All NBA team. Tony parkers by far best playoff run was in 2007 when he didn't make an All NBA team. So it's an arbitrary classification. Parker and Manu were the best players in those playoff runs repectively manu for 2005 and parker for 2007. And we know Manu had the chops to be as good as Duncan because he lit him up H2H in 2004.


https://youtu.be/SqDAyVDpB90

No.

[Nowitness]

Which doesn't mean anything since Manus by far best playoff run was in 2005 when he didn't make an All NBA team. Tony parkers by far best playoff run was in 2007 when he didn't make an All NBA team. So it's an arbitrary classification. Parker and Manu were the best players in those playoff runs repectively manu for 2005 and parker for 2007. And we know Manu had the chops to be as good as Duncan because he lit him up H2H in 2004.


https://youtu.be/SqDAyVDpB90 on

2007 Playoffs
Duncan - 22/12/3/3, 27.5 PER, 1.8 VORP, 3.4 Win Shares
Parker - 21/3/6, 19 PER, 0.6 VORP, 1.6 Win Shares

You’re showing your hatred/bias. On what planet was Parker better? That’s just raw and advanced statistics, and doesn’t even mention that Parker was a net negative defender whilst Duncan finished 3rd in DOOY voting with higher efficiency.

There are many reasons why USA lost in 04, including every top 12 player (bar Duncan) refusing to play, a bunch of rookies and AI/Marbury making up the team and Larry Brown refusing to allow USA to win with their athleticism. Scola was arguably the best player for Argentina. But now what you do at the Olympics dictates impact in the NBA? Fine, Melo is the greatest player ever by that logic.

[tpols]

on

2007 Playoffs
Duncan - 22/12/3/3, 27.5 PER, 1.8 VORP, 3.4 Win Shares
Parker - 21/3/6, 19 PER, 0.6 VORP, 1.6 Win Shares

You’re showing your hatred/bias. On what planet was Parker better? That’s just raw and advanced statistics, and doesn’t even mention that Parker was a net negative defender whilst Duncan finished 3rd in DOOY voting with higher efficiency.

There are many reasons why USA lost in 04, including every top 12 player (bar Duncan) refusing to play, a bunch of rookies and AI/Marbury making up the team and Larry Brown refusing to allow USA to win with their athleticism. Scola was arguably the best player for Argentina. But now what you do at the Olympics dictates impact in the NBA? Fine, Melo is the greatest player ever by that logic.

I was mostly busting your chops because you used that arbitrary All NBA criteria as your end all be all for the spurs in the mid 2000s but Parker and Manu had their best playoff runs in the '01 to '08 time range. And we're bona-fide All NBA impact players.

To me everything counts. The Olympics let us see basketball outside the NBAs sphere of influence. Manu was definitely better than Scola, that's you showing your bias as well. And Argentina wasn't favored to win anything. Duncan didn't look like a superstar in that format.

[Nowitness]

I was mostly busting your chops because you used that arbitrary All NBA criteria as your end all be all for the spurs in the mid 2000s but Parker and Manu had their best playoff runs in the '01 to '08 time range. And we're bona-fide All NBA impact players.

To me everything counts. The Olympics let us see basketball outside the NBAs sphere of influence. Manu was definitely better than Scola, that's you showing your bias as well. And Argentina wasn't favored to win anything. Duncan didn't look like a superstar in that format.

Which top 10 player do you believe had less help than Duncan (not historical rankings, but when they played with them).

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Undeniable truth:

https://atlantadailyworld.com/2014/10/04/tim-duncan-is-gay-says-estranged-wife/

[Dbrog]

Which doesn't mean anything since Manus by far best playoff run was in 2005 when he didn't make an All NBA team. Tony parkers by far best playoff run was in 2007 when he didn't make an All NBA team. So it's an arbitrary classification. Parker and Manu were the best players in those playoff runs repectively manu for 2005 and parker for 2007. And we know Manu had the chops to be as good as Duncan because he lit him up H2H in 2004.


This guy :roll::roll::roll:

[Kblaze8855]

I was mostly busting your chops because you used that arbitrary All NBA criteria as your end all be all for the spurs in the mid 2000s but Parker and Manu had their best playoff runs in the '01 to '08 time range. And we're bona-fide All NBA impact players.

To me everything counts. The Olympics let us see basketball outside the NBAs sphere of influence. Manu was definitely better than Scola, that's you showing your bias as well. And Argentina wasn't favored to win anything. Duncan didn't look like a superstar in that format.


Pau and 5 nba role players were in a 2 point game in the 4th quarter vs Kobe, Lebron, and Wade backed by 5 hall of famers and Deron.

Obviously there isn’t a 1-1 translation of nba ball to international effectiveness. Doesn’t make Tony or Manu on Tim’s level any more than jasikevicius was on the level of the team with 7 hall of famers he lost to by a single jumper at the buzzer.

Neither of those dudes were ever even 07 Tim. And if one was it was probably Manu. Tony Parker was never even close to being close as a total player. Might as well throw defense out the window and post competing highlight mixes.

[paksat]

watching duncan get drilled in the 04 embarrassment on team usa, if you seen it then you're not being honest about this "superstar."

[DMAVS41]

I'm still just confused.

Duncan led teams had one of the best runs in NBA history from the moment he was drafted to the moment he retired. He did it playing multiple styles both individually and as a team. He had really good, but not overwhelming help the majority of his prime. He played much of his prime in a conference with some of the best players of all time...two of which were on the same team for a good chunk of his prime.

He did the very thing tpols claims he needed to do more of...increase scoring when needed....and lost to a guy that scored less...I still want to know the point about bringing up the 06 series vs Dirk. I still want to know why Duncan scoring 32 a game is indicative of the points he's making.

At some point...and I agree that often times stars get too much credit...but at some point with Duncan...we just have to stop ignoring reality. He was the driving force behind nearly two decades of greatness for the Spurs. It is like when Brady went to Tampa and immediately wins the super bowl...at some point even the Brady haters just have to admit he has something special that almost nobody else does.

Duncan was that guy...and outside a handful of guys, maybe less if you ask me, he's as good as anyone to ever play the game if the ultimate goal is doing whatever your team needs to win as many games as possible.

What else is there to say?

[ArbitraryWater]

And if Duncan had a Shaq like personality demanding to be fed instead of happily allowing the team to transition to an everybody eats motion offense in his late 20s when he was still this guy at 38:



https://youtu.be/3UndxLsxv7k




any chance that great passing team of unselfish team first confident role players and young stars doesn’t develop that way?



still "this guy" i see a couple moves and mostly getting bird fed, stop it.

[ArbitraryWater]

This guy :roll::roll::roll:

i second "that guy".

[Kblaze8855]

still "this guy" i see a couple moves and mostly getting bird fed, stop it.


You see turnaround jumpers, faceup drives across the lane, hooks with both hands, finishing as the roll man, right handed finger rolls going left….you see basketball. Effective basketball. It just isn’t very much appreciated in the era of tik tok highlights and tweets telling fans what good is.

[ArbitraryWater]

You see turnaround jumpers, faceup drives across the lane, hooks with both hands, finishing as the roll man, right handed finger rolls going left….you see basketball. Effective basketball. It just isn’t very much appreciated in the era of tik tok highlights and tweets telling fans what good is.

i saw 6 non bird-fed baskets.

this is kinda like you showing that one russell highlight to prove he surely could have scored a lot more cause look at this!!

[Kblaze8855]

What point do you think you’re making? David Robinson was at 8 and change makes a game for 4 of his 6 prime seasons. Think he got a couple dump offs or finished some rolls for the 8-9? Zo only made it to 8 made field goals a game 2 seasons. Jokic averages 9 made shots a game. Think a couple easy ones might be mixed in? Prime KG had seasons at 8. I seem to remember a quick dunk or two off penetration or a rebound. Duncan averaged 7 made shots a game when he was 29.

How do you think it’s supposed to look?

It being something he could likely replicate pretty easily is the whole point. He didn’t need to do much to score. He chose to do other things when he could have made those plays you’re unimpressed by most if not all of his career.

[DMAVS41]

What point do you think you’re making? David Robinson was at 8 and change makes a game for 4 of his 6 prime seasons. Think he got a couple dump offs or finished some rolls for the 8-9? Zo only made it to 8 made field goals a game 2 seasons. Jokic averages 9 made shots a game. Think a couple easy ones might be mixed in? Prime KG had seasons at 8. I seem to remember a quick dunk or two off penetration or a rebound. Duncan averaged 7 made shots a game when he was 29.

How do you think it’s supposed to look?

It being something he could likely replicate pretty easily is the whole point. He didn’t need to do much to score. He chose to do other things when he could have made those plays you’re unimpressed by most if not all of his career.

The "Duncan couldn't score" narrative in 2023 shouldn't surprise me because of how insane things get about the past, but I must admit I did not see having to debate whether or not Duncan could get 25 if he was a far more selfish player that took 20 plus shots a game.

[Prometheus]

I have had several discussions recently about how the impact of a basketball player is far more difficult to quantify than in most other sports. My best friend is a huge baseball fan, and I think baseball is its polar opposite in this way.

Tim Duncan might be the best example of this principle. He has to be - in the modern era at least. I suspect if I was old enough to have watched basketball in the 1960s, I would feel the same way about Bill Russell.

We spend so much time analyzing statistics, from the box score numbers to the advanced analytics - and yet, much of what leads to winning basketball is virtually impossible to quantify.

Do the best, most impactful players typically generate more impressive numbers than others? Yes. But the only numbers that actually matter - ever - are the numbers on the scoreboard. The impact of any player is simply a question of how his presence on the court correlates to the score of the game.

It's not like Duncan's metrics weren't impressive... but I don't think they come remotely close to capturing his greatness. He was an extremely intelligent, selfless, poised, focused, emotionally steady competitor. Every last thing he did - on the court, in the locker room, in practice - was geared toward winning. The purest of intentions. His coachability, as mentioned in the OP... his selflessness on offense, especially in his twilight years, as pointed out by blaze... his defensive greatness... his calm, positive attitude... Everything was about winning basketball games.

EDIT: typo

[rmt]

I have had several discussions recently about how the impact of a basketball player is far more difficult to quantify than in most other sports. My best friend is a huge baseball fan, and I think baseball is its polar opposite in this way.

Tim Duncan might be the best example of this principle. He has to be - in the modern era at least. I suspect if I was old enough to have watched basketball in the 1960s, I would feel the same way about Bill Russell.

We spend so much time analyzing statistics, from the box score numbers to the advanced analytics - and yet, much of what leads to winning basketball is virtually impossible to quantify.

Do the best, most impactful players typically generate more impressive numbers than others? Yes. But the only numbers that actually matter - ever - are the numbers on the scoreboard. The impact of any player is simply a question of how his presence on the court correlates to the score of the game.

It's not like Duncan's metrics weren't impressive... but I don't think they come remotely close to capturing his greatness. He was an extremely intelligent, selfless, poised, focused, emotionally steady competitor. Every last thing he did - on the court, in the locker room, in practice - was geared toward winning. The purest of intentions. His coachability, as mentioned in the OP... his selflessness on offense, especially in his twilight years, as pointed out by blaze... his defensive greatness... his calm, positive attitude... Everything was about winning basketball games.

EDIT: typo

Ditto - TD did whatever it took to win - whether it was carrying the team early on (I shudder when I think of the wild, out of control 2nd year Parker and rookie Manu), slowly relinquishing the offense so that they could develop and shine or taking a back seat (offensively - not defensively) later on - all for the betterment of the team. It was a fantastic run of sustained excellence, and I miss those days.

[Im Still Ballin]

What point do you think you’re making? David Robinson was at 8 and change makes a game for 4 of his 6 prime seasons. Think he got a couple dump offs or finished some rolls for the 8-9? Zo only made it to 8 made field goals a game 2 seasons. Jokic averages 9 made shots a game. Think a couple easy ones might be mixed in? Prime KG had seasons at 8. I seem to remember a quick dunk or two off penetration or a rebound. Duncan averaged 7 made shots a game when he was 29.

How do you think it’s supposed to look?

It being something he could likely replicate pretty easily is the whole point. He didn’t need to do much to score. He chose to do other things when he could have made those plays you’re unimpressed by most if not all of his career.


I have had several discussions recently about how the impact of a basketball player is far more difficult to quantify than in most other sports. My best friend is a huge baseball fan, and I think baseball is its polar opposite in this way.

Tim Duncan might be the best example of this principle. He has to be - in the modern era at least. I suspect if I was old enough to have watched basketball in the 1960s, I would feel the same way about Bill Russell.

We spend so much time analyzing statistics, from the box score numbers to the advanced analytics - and yet, much of what leads to winning basketball is virtually impossible to quantify.

Do the best, most impactful players typically generate more impressive numbers than others? Yes. But the only numbers that actually matter - ever - are the numbers on the scoreboard. The impact of any player is simply a question of how his presence on the court correlates to the score of the game.

It's not like Duncan's metrics weren't impressive... but I don't think they come remotely close to capturing his greatness. He was an extremely intelligent, selfless, poised, focused, emotionally steady competitor. Every last thing he did - on the court, in the locker room, in practice - was geared toward winning. The purest of intentions. His coachability, as mentioned in the OP... his selflessness on offense, especially in his twilight years, as pointed out by blaze... his defensive greatness... his calm, positive attitude... Everything was about winning basketball games.

EDIT: typo

:applause:

Great posts.