Misconception about prime Shaquille O'Neal - Overrated as a post-up scorer

[Im Still Ballin]

When people think of Shaq, they envision a guy who was unstoppable in the post. Someone who scored seemingly every time he got the ball on the low block. It would surprise many to know that he was actually less efficient than other post-up greats.

A RealGM poster manually tracked several greats a few years back. Here's what the post-up numbers ended up looking like:

Shaq: 0.98 PPP (17.6 post-up possessions per game)
Hakeem: 1.13 PPP (16.7 post-up possessions per game)
Kareem: 1.09 PPP (16.3 post-up possessions per game)

Part of Shaq's low number can be explained by poor free throw shooting. However, even if you account for that, he's still below the others.

Shaq is the worst post-up scorer of the three based on the footage of full-length games I've watched. His touch isn't quite as good as Kareem and Hakeem's. Don't get me wrong, it's very good; he's a strong post-up scorer. Shaq's just not as good as people perceive him to be.

However, I think Shaq's the best post-up threat ever. His low-post game adds more to his team's offense than any others do to their respective team. I'm differentiating between scorer and threat here. Shots taken out of the post only encompass a portion of the value a post-up threat brings to a team's offense.

Shaq was underrated as a finisher and offensive rebounder. He'd rebound his own misses and put them back like Moses Malone. He'd spin off overcommitted post defenders and throw down that signature lob. Doesn't count as a post-up bucket but it was set up by his post-up game. The threat of his post-up game.

His strength allowed him to get deep post position, drawing defensive attention off the ball. He'd make things easier for the four other guys, giving them space, opening up shooting opportunities, driving, and passing lanes. These sorts of plays would naturally segue into high-percentage dump-offs, alley-oops, and offensive rebounds.

More finishes that technically don't count as post-up buckets. But you get the idea.

It does seem pointless to deconstruct this point - the difference between post-up scoring and offensive value. But it needs to be said because of the misconception of who Shaq was. The type of player he was. What his dominance looked like.

People seem to remember Shaq as more of a "just throw him the ball down low and he'll score every time." As if thinking of Shaq as more of a garbage man and play-finisher would make him seem less. Which is obviously ludicrous. But I'm sure Shaq would want to be known as the post-up scorer more than the rebounder, lob and dump-off guy.

I think it comes down to the underrating of finishing plays and offensive rebounding. They're not as sexy as creating for one's self in the post. Individual scoring from the low block.

Anyways, thought I'd make this thread. You can check the numbers in the images below. Peep how high Shaq's % and volume is on finishes and off. rebounds.

TL;DR

- Overrated as post-up scorer (0.98 PPP)
- Appropriately rated as a post-up threat (offensive value)
- Underrated as an offensive rebounder and finisher
- Post-up threat sets up high-percentage putbacks, dump-offs, and lobs



Shaquille O'Neal 1998, 2000, 2001 Playoffs (52 games)

https://i.ibb.co/bPKX2H0/nZTvn1T.png




Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-1995 (58 games)

https://i.ibb.co/ts47HRS/mI9vr92.png




Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1969-1980 (26 games)

https://i.ibb.co/YfrH5f2/hOmLDKo.png

https://i.ibb.co/X72GJpb/89mN0mT.png

[warriorfan]

Interesting thread.

May want to fix Kareem’s stats, I don’t see the PPP breakdown in his.

Seems like a pretty good sample size but more would be nice. My other question would be strength of opponent. I noticed Shaq’s sample is from playoffs only. It could factor in a slight difference. I don’t have any sort of agenda here, just a few thoughts.

[Full Court]

As far as centers go, I have Shaq ranked behind Russell, Wilt, and Kareem, and ahead of Hakeem.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s hard to factor in Shaqs post scoring by just percentages when he got fouled on purpose a lot of the time he would have scored. He had 43 on 21-30 vs the pacers in the finals and next game they decide to just not let him do it…so he took 39 free throws. Fouled out the starting 4, fouled out the backup center, and had 5 fouls on the starter.

What are we doing with that information? He was “only” 11-19 from the field. Some of the 11 were just dump offs. He probably didn’t shoot well from the field on post ups. But he had 40 points anyway because he was unstoppable posting up and that’s how they dealt with it. What is that performance?

[1987_Lakers]

Seeing peak Shaq was a huge reason why I started watching the NBA religiously. Some people don't realize how dominant he was on the offensive end. He would straight up murder anyone who guarded him, put up video game numbers in every Finals the Lakers won during the 3 peat. It was seriously like watching a grown man going up against toddlers. One of the things that gets forgotten about him is how clutch he was at the FT line in a big game, for being such a poor free throw shooter, he seemed to make more FTs when the game was on the line. The only person who guarded him respectively during that '00-'02 run was Sabonis. And no, I'm not talking about Domantas, full court.

[Axe]

Seeing peak Shaq was a huge reason why I started watching the NBA religiously. Some people don't realize how dominant he was on the offensive end. He would straight up murder anyone who guarded him, put up video game numbers in every Finals the Lakers won during the 3 peat. It was seriously like watching a grown man going up against toddlers. One of the things that gets forgotten about him is how clutch he was at the FT line in a big game, for being such a poor free throw shooter, he seemed to make more FTs when the game was on the line. The only person who guarded him respectively during that '00-'02 run was Sabonis. And no, I'm not talking about Domantas, full court.
:yaohappy:

[Full Court]

:yaohappy:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fres.cloudinary.com%2Fteepublic%2F image%2Fprivate%2Fs--0hAi85Ay--%2Ft_Preview%2Fb_rgb%3A262c3a%2Cc_limit%2Cf_jpg%2C h_630%2Cq_90%2Cw_630%2Fv1527267497%2Fproduction%2F designs%2F2723063_0.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=2981e752d4875f30329f67a0d0364db792d7eb20bc64f8 c65769a7d70961cac6&ipo=images

[Full Court]

Seeing peak Shaq was a huge reason why I started watching the NBA religiously. Some people don't realize how dominant he was on the offensive end. He would straight up murder anyone who guarded him, put up video game numbers in every Finals the Lakers won during the 3 peat. It was seriously like watching a grown man going up against toddlers. One of the things that gets forgotten about him is how clutch he was at the FT line in a big game, for being such a poor free throw shooter, he seemed to make more FTs when the game was on the line. The only person who guarded him respectively during that '00-'02 run was Sabonis. And no, I'm not talking about Domantas, full court.

I know you somehow missed this, but Domantas Sabonis made the all star team this year.

You're welcome for the free education. :lol


Also, you misused the word "respectively." You're welcome for that too.

[Axe]

Redneck jizzrag still getting triggered over smileys. What an absolute snowflake. :oldlol:

[Full Court]

Redneck jizzrag still getting triggered over smileys. What an absolute snowflake. :oldlol:

Merman dingus throwing bitch fits over every Full Court post. :roll:

What a loser.

[Axe]

He's derailing another good thread again! :lebronamazed:

@kblaze

[Prometheus]

Great thread :applause:

I never thought of this, and I'm not about to go double check this research myself... but it honestly seems to fit with what I remember.

I'm curious about something though... I seem to remember Shaq scoring a LOT in semi-transition simply by pinning whoever picked him up under the rim. This I'm assuming does not count as a "post-up" play, since it is a transition bucket, and it is not borne out of catching the ball on the block and going to work. But it makes me wonder exactly how we define post play... because it's still back-to-the-basket offense.

[ImKobe]

Yeah the 3-10 ft numbers are just awful. If only he took the game more seriously and developed his shot-making ability.

[HoopsNY]

Seeing peak Shaq was a huge reason why I started watching the NBA religiously. Some people don't realize how dominant he was on the offensive end. He would straight up murder anyone who guarded him, put up video game numbers in every Finals the Lakers won during the 3 peat. It was seriously like watching a grown man going up against toddlers. One of the things that gets forgotten about him is how clutch he was at the FT line in a big game, for being such a poor free throw shooter, he seemed to make more FTs when the game was on the line. The only person who guarded him respectively during that '00-'02 run was Sabonis. And no, I'm not talking about Domantas, full court.

Shaq benefited from a league that wanted the Lakers in the finals and winning championships. It was evident when the league fixed the series against the Kings in 2002.

In addition, he dominated weaker front courts in the finals with aging centers like Smits and Mutombo. But during the playoffs (prior to the finals) it was a different story. Shaq looked different against Duncan/Robinson, Sabonis/Wallace/Grant, Divac/Webber and it showed.

Shaq '00-'02 Finals: 36 PPG on 60% FGs
Shaq '00-'02 (first three rounds): 28 PPG on 53% FGs

This isn't to say he would have underachieved against better big men. But I do think Shaq's peak is overrated. You think he could have done that during Wilt and Kareem's time? I certainly don't. He would have been called for a foul every single possession.

[HoopsNY]

All this talk about super and stacked teams with guys like LeBron, KD, MJ, etc...yet no one dares to even mention Shaq and who he played with...

Peak Penny (and a stacked team in Orlando)
Peak Kobe (most say 2006-2010 was Kobe's peak but I'd say Kobe's best year was arguably 2001)
Peak Wade
Peak Amar'e
Peak Nash
Peak LeBron
Celtics superteam

Where's all the criticism for someone who had arguably the best teams/teammates for the majority of their careers?

[FKAri]

Great thread :applause:

I never thought of this, and I'm not about to go double check this research myself... but it honestly seems to fit with what I remember.

I'm curious about something though... I seem to remember Shaq scoring a LOT in semi-transition simply by pinning whoever picked him up under the rim. This I'm assuming does not count as a "post-up" play, since it is a transition bucket, and it is not borne out of catching the ball on the block and going to work. But it makes me wonder exactly how we define post play... because it's still back-to-the-basket offense.

Ya this is where Shaq really shined imo. He'd also get frustrated and discouraged when he wasn't rewarded for running and understandably so. Not easy for a guy his size to continuously run in transition but when he did these were some of his easiest buckets and some of the easiest buckets in NBA history. It was easier for Orlando Shaq to run but it was easier for the big Lakers Shaq to pin guys.

[Im Still Ballin]

Interesting thread.

May want to fix Kareem’s stats, I don’t see the PPP breakdown in his.

Seems like a pretty good sample size but more would be nice. My other question would be strength of opponent. I noticed Shaq’s sample is from playoffs only. It could factor in a slight difference. I don’t have any sort of agenda here, just a few thoughts.

Here are Synergy post-up stats from the 2005-2006 season:



Single Covered in the Post (56.12% of his offense) Good, NBA% 54, PPP 0.89 (FG 255/528 48.3%)

Left block 65.86% of the time. Rating: Average, NBA% 47, PPP 0.84 (FG 156/337 46.29%)

Turns left shoulder 46.79% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 52, PPP 0.91 (FG 75/165 45.45%)

Turns right shoulder 48.22% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 56, PPP 0.89 (FG 71/156 45.51%)

Faces up 1.19% of the time. Rating: Very Good, NBA% 74, PPP 1 (FG 2/3 66.67%)

Post pins 3.8% of the time. Rating: Average, NBA% 45, PPP 1.19 (FG 8/13 61.54%)

Right block 18.41% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 56, PPP 0.85 (FG 50/112 44.64%)

Turns left shoulder 66.14% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 55, PPP 0.9 (FG 33/71 46.48%)

Turns right shoulder 30.71% of the time. Rating: Average, NBA% 39, PPP 0.74 (FG 14/37 37.84%) Home Away Both

Faces up 0.79% of the time. Rating: Poor, NBA% 0, PPP 0 (FG 0/1 0%)

Post pins 2.36% of the time. Rating: Excellent, NBA% 94, PPP 2 (FG 3/3 100%)

Flash middle 15.72% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 59, PPP 1.12 (FG 49/79 62.03%)

Turns left shoulder 51.55% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 62, PPP 1.14 (FG 25/44 56.82%)

Turns right shoulder 38.14% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 55, PPP 1.16 (FG 17/28 60.71%)

Faces up 0% of the time. Rating: NA

Post pins 10.31% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 61, PPP 1.7 (FG 7/7 100%)



It’s hard to factor in Shaqs post scoring by just percentages when he got fouled on purpose a lot of the time he would have scored. He had 43 on 21-30 vs the pacers in the finals and next game they decide to just not let him do it…so he took 39 free throws. Fouled out the starting 4, fouled out the backup center, and had 5 fouls on the starter.

What are we doing with that information? He was “only” 11-19 from the field. Some of the 11 were just dump offs. He probably didn’t shoot well from the field on post ups. But he had 40 points anyway because he was unstoppable posting up and that’s how they dealt with it. What is that performance?

All good points. The foul pressure was definitely something I forgot to put in the OP. Putting guys in foul trouble and getting into the bonus provided additional offensive value.

All things considered, he has as good of an argument as any for the most impactful post-player. Even if he's not quite as developed in certain aspects compared to other post-up greats. This thread was just more about the nuances of his offensive game, and how people miss these specifics.


Seeing peak Shaq was a huge reason why I started watching the NBA religiously. Some people don't realize how dominant he was on the offensive end. He would straight up murder anyone who guarded him, put up video game numbers in every Finals the Lakers won during the 3 peat. It was seriously like watching a grown man going up against toddlers. One of the things that gets forgotten about him is how clutch he was at the FT line in a big game, for being such a poor free throw shooter, he seemed to make more FTs when the game was on the line. The only person who guarded him respectively during that '00-'02 run was Sabonis. And no, I'm not talking about Domantas, full court.

Facts. Sabonis had the frame to resist Shaq's strength.


Great thread :applause:

I never thought of this, and I'm not about to go double check this research myself... but it honestly seems to fit with what I remember.

I'm curious about something though... I seem to remember Shaq scoring a LOT in semi-transition simply by pinning whoever picked him up under the rim. This I'm assuming does not count as a "post-up" play, since it is a transition bucket, and it is not borne out of catching the ball on the block and going to work. But it makes me wonder exactly how we define post play... because it's still back-to-the-basket offense.

All good points. We have to be careful when deconstructing and segregating offense. Scoring from passing; play types from different play types. Because that's not how the game is played. It's all connected and flows together in real-time on the court.


Yeah the 3-10 ft numbers are just awful. If only he took the game more seriously and developed his shot-making ability.

Yeah, that stat kind of illustrates the point of this thread.

Shaquille O'Neal 3-10 feet
Regular season: 43.4% FG (41.6% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 40.7% FG (46.1% of total shots attempted)

We only have numbers from 1997 onwards, but Hakeem's percentages are awesome; the numbers below include all his old, broken-down years.

Hakeem Olajuwon 3-10 feet
Regular season: 46.6% FG (28% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 52.1% FG (34.4% of total shots attempted)

It was really the super-deep paint presence where Shaq dominated. The restricted area. Similar to Dwight in that respect actually. It's funny how Dwight was criticized for his post-up game when his 3-10 feet numbers weren't too different from Shaq's.

Dwight Howard 3-10 feet
Regular season: 41.6% FG (33.6% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 40.5% FG (35.0% of total shots attempted)

With how some people talk about it, I think Dwight's offensive game was underrated. 18-23 PPG, 57-61% FG, 60-63% TS in his prime. You don't put up numbers like that without being a good offensive player. Goes back to my point about certain aspects of basketball being underrated. Power players, offensive rebounds, finishers in the paint.

Dwight just didn't have Shaq's sheer size and strength to get as many of those super-deep, high-percentage looks in the paint. Was also more of a team-oriented, defensive-minded guy. Not overly concerned with putting up big scoring numbers.

Defense was where Shaq really could've been better. Better conditioned; a higher motor.

[hateraid]

This is a case where stats don't compare to good old eye test. So many factors to conceive. Fouls, competition, teammates, career peaks....
Shaq was that unstoppable in the paint. The best way I suggest gauge is I Allstars games where defensive planning is a none issue and Shaq just bulldozed. He was and is the most unstoppable player to ever play.

[dankok8]

Yea Shaq wasn't that effective when he caught it a bit further from the basket. That's why his overall per possession numbers are lower. However this data doesn't tell the whole story because Shaq just exerted so much pressure and got opponents in foul trouble which doesn't show up in this. And it doesn't show how hard it was to deny him deep position in the first place.

Purely offensively it's Kareem = Shaq with Hakeem quite a way behind.

[HoopsNY]

Yea Shaq wasn't that effective when he caught it a bit further from the basket. That's why his overall per possession numbers are lower. However this data doesn't tell the whole story because Shaq just exerted so much pressure and got opponents in foul trouble which doesn't show up in this. And it doesn't show how hard it was to deny him deep position in the first place.

Purely offensively it's Kareem = Shaq with Hakeem quite a way behind.

How is Hakeem quite way behind? Peak Hakeem is '93-'95 whilst peak Shaq is '00-'02. Let's look at their playoff contributions.

Shaq '00-'02: 29.9 PPG | 55.2% FG% | 56.2% TS% | 3.0 APG | 29.3 PER

Hakeem '93-'95: 29.8 PPG | 52.4% FG% | 56.8 TS% | 4.4 APG | 26.2 PER

Shaq has an edge here statistically, but I don't think the advantage is that significant. And I'd argue Hakeem actually had the edge when you consider who he went up against. Hakeem was guarded by bigs like Shaq, Ewing, and Robinson. Not to mention he had Rodman guard him sometimes in the series against SA. Shaq was busy thumping on Rik Smits and Todd MacCulloch. Mutombo, Sabonis, and Divac are better than those guys, but they're nothing in comparison to who Hakeem faced.

Also, I'd argue that Kobe was the Lakers' closer in those years in the playoffs and it was really a 1a/1b situation in the clutch. Hakeem had none of that and was money in the biggest moments and most important games.

Kobe came up huge in games 6 and 7 of the WCF in 2000. He also played extremely well in game 3 in the OT where Shaq had fouled out.

[Reggie43]

Shaq is Shaq. There wouldnt be any "Misconception" if you saw him play at his peak. He is more underrated if anything considering some fans think all he could do was dunk and bully people in the post.

[ImKobe]

How is Hakeem quite way behind? Peak Hakeem is '93-'95 whilst peak Shaq is '00-'02. Let's look at their playoff contributions.

Shaq '00-'02: 29.9 PPG | 55.2% FG% | 56.2% TS% | 3.0 APG | 29.3 PER

Hakeem '93-'95: 29.8 PPG | 52.4% FG% | 56.8 TS% | 4.4 APG | 26.2 PER

Shaq has an edge here statistically, but I don't think the advantage is that significant. And I'd argue Hakeem actually had the edge when you consider who he went up against. Hakeem was guarded by bigs like Shaq, Ewing, and Robinson. Not to mention he had Rodman guard him sometimes in the series against SA. Shaq was busy thumping on Rik Smits and Todd MacCulloch. Mutombo, Sabonis, and Divac are better than those guys, but they're nothing in comparison to who Hakeem faced.

Also, I'd argue that Kobe was the Lakers' closer in those years in the playoffs and it was really a 1a/1b situation in the clutch. Hakeem had none of that and was money in the biggest moments and most important games.

Kobe came up huge in games 6 and 7 of the WCF in 2000. He also played extremely well in game 3 in the OT where Shaq had fouled out.

There's really nothing to argue in terms of KB being the closer. 2000 it was mostly Shaq when you look at the last 5 minutes (score within 5) scoring numbers though KB made most of the big plays in the pivotal moments, but '01 onwards KB was the leading scorer in crunch time by a wide margin.

Drexler did his thing in '95 though, especially in the two elimination games vs. Utah and he was excellent that entire run, definitely on par with '00 KB at the very least.

[warriorfan]

Here are Synergy post-up stats from the 2005-2006 season:





All good points. The foul pressure was definitely something I forgot to put in the OP. Putting guys in foul trouble and getting into the bonus provided additional offensive value.

All things considered, he has as good of an argument as any for the most impactful post-player. Even if he's not quite as developed in certain aspects compared to other post-up greats. This thread was just more about the nuances of his offensive game, and how people miss these specifics.



Facts. Sabonis had the frame to resist Shaq's strength.



All good points. We have to be careful when deconstructing and segregating offense. Scoring from passing; play types from different play types. Because that's not how the game is played. It's all connected and flows together in real-time on the court.



Yeah, that stat kind of illustrates the point of this thread.

Shaquille O'Neal 3-10 feet
Regular season: 43.4% FG (41.6% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 40.7% FG (46.1% of total shots attempted)

We only have numbers from 1997 onwards, but Hakeem's percentages are awesome; the numbers below include all his old, broken-down years.

Hakeem Olajuwon 3-10 feet
Regular season: 46.6% FG (28% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 52.1% FG (34.4% of total shots attempted)

It was really the super-deep paint presence where Shaq dominated. The restricted area. Similar to Dwight in that respect actually. It's funny how Dwight was criticized for his post-up game when his 3-10 feet numbers weren't too different from Shaq's.

Dwight Howard 3-10 feet
Regular season: 41.6% FG (33.6% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 40.5% FG (35.0% of total shots attempted)

With how some people talk about it, I think Dwight's offensive game was underrated. 18-23 PPG, 57-61% FG, 60-63% TS in his prime. You don't put up numbers like that without being a good offensive player. Goes back to my point about certain aspects of basketball being underrated. Power players, offensive rebounds, finishers in the paint.

Dwight just didn't have Shaq's sheer size and strength to get as many of those super-deep, high-percentage looks in the paint. Was also more of a team-oriented, defensive-minded guy. Not overly concerned with putting up big scoring numbers.

Defense was where Shaq really could've been better. Better conditioned; a higher motor.

With Dwight being underrated offensively its because a lot of his game did look pretty ugly. All of his moves were stiff and mechanical. Even his makes looked bad. Even with that all being said the numbers don’t lie, he was still very effective.

[John8204]

Shaq is Shaq. There wouldnt be any "Misconception" if you saw him play at his peak. He is more underrated if anything considering some fans think all he could do was dunk and bully people in the post.

1-8 against Stockton in the playoffs

He was only dominate for a small window when the league was in transition...never had a 30 PPG season left a title team because he couldn't stay in shape.

Shaq is a star but he is drastically overrated.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/gycHkO3LmtI

[Im Still Ballin]

Shaq is Shaq. There wouldnt be any "Misconception" if you saw him play at his peak. He is more underrated if anything considering some fans think all he could do was dunk and bully people in the post.

This kind of reductive thinking is exactly why I made this thread. People nowadays tend to overstate his finesse, giving an incorrect impression of who he was. The numbers don't lie: he wasn't all that great outside of 3 feet.

The issue is you act as if "bullying people in the post" makes him less. As if doing something prettily makes it more valuable. It doesn't. Two points is two points. This goes back to my point about how people overrate finesse players and underrate power players.

What made Shaq unstoppable was his ability to dominate in the restricted area. He could hit the occasional jump-hook from range, but he wasn't great at it.

[Axe]

1-8 against Stockton in the playoffs

He was only dominate for a small window when the league was in transition...never had a 30 PPG season left a title team because he couldn't stay in shape.

Shaq is a star but he is drastically overrated.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/gycHkO3LmtI
And he still has three finals mvps over kobe's two. :sleeping

[John8204]

And he still has three finals mvps over kobe's two. :sleeping


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKVzlDc_Dq4

#83
:yaohappy:

[Axe]

Wonder why kobe completely missed the playoffs in his first season without him. :confusedshrug:

:roll:

[Reggie43]

This kind of reductive thinking is exactly why I made this thread. People nowadays tend to overstate his finesse, giving an incorrect impression of who he was. The numbers don't lie: he wasn't all that great outside of 3 feet.

The issue is you act as if "bullying people in the post" makes him less. As if doing something prettily makes it more valuable. It doesn't. Two points is two points. This goes back to my point about how people overrate finesse players and underrate power players.

What made Shaq unstoppable was his ability to dominate in the restricted area. He could hit the occasional jump-hook from range, but he wasn't great at it.

Not true at all, my team was one of the victims of Shaqs peak in the Finals and he hit a ton of jumphooks while being double teamed. He was hitting hit at almost the ft line and was the move he scored most of his points.

[Im Still Ballin]

Not true at all, my team was one of the victims of Shaqs peak in the Finals and he hit a ton of jumphooks while being double teamed. He was hitting hit at almost the ft line and was the move he scored most of his points.

What's your definition of 'from range'? Shaq's average field goal attempt came from 4.5 feet in his prime (97-06.) Barely outside the restricted area. He wasn't hitting jump hooks from sky hook range for the majority of his prime.

As I said, he occasionally hit jump hooks from further out - 6ft+. I've watched the games where he sunk shots from the hash marks and even the free-throw line. Most of Shaq's value came in the restricted area, or right in front of it.

[Reggie43]

https://youtu.be/vRXZwg3YcGA

His first five shots in the video shows the range that he had on those jump hooks. Teams usually had 2 people on him trying to push him away from the paint but he was able to hit those shots consistently regardless of the defense.

[Im Still Ballin]

https://youtu.be/vRXZwg3YcGA

His first five shots in the video shows the range that he had on those jump hooks. Teams usually had 2 people on him trying to push him away from the paint but he was able to hit those shots consistently regardless of the defense.

And I can find several clips of LeBron hitting mid-range jump shots. Doesn't mean he is or was great at them. Streaky is an apt label.

What are we arguing here?

Shaq's numbers from the restricted area vs. outside it:

1999-2000
Restricted Area: 74.8% FG (763 FGA)
Everywhere Else: 42.7% FG (902 FGA)

2000-2001
Restricted Area: 77.4% FG (654 FGA)
Everywhere Else: 40.0% FG (768 FGA)

2001-2002
Restricted Area: 73.6% FG (662 FGA)
Everywhere Else: 39.7% FG (567 FGA)

[Reggie43]

Those numbers dont tell the whole story. If any other big were defended the way Shaq was in his prime they would have done worse.

[Im Still Ballin]

Those numbers dont tell the whole story. If any other big were defended the way Shaq was in his prime they would have done worse.

Defenses wouldn't, because most others would sink the foul shots.

They defended him with the intent to keep him out of the restricted area. Shaq taking a shot outside of 5 feet was a win for them. His immense value came from his ability to score efficiently and at unmatched volume within 4 feet of the basket. His unparalleled combination of size, strength, and athleticism allowed him to do this.

He had some sauce outside of the restricted area, but it wasn't what made him great.

[Phoenix]

1-8 against Stockton in the playoffs



So MJ shouldn't be ranked higher than anyone he has losing records against in the playoffs then.

0-6 vs Bird
10-12 vs Isiah

https://media.tenor.com/5vcncLxsNYcAAAAC/whoops-whoopsie.gif

[Prometheus]

So MJ shouldn't be ranked higher than anyone he has losing records against in the playoffs then.

0-6 vs Bird
10-12 vs Isiah

https://media.tenor.com/5vcncLxsNYcAAAAC/whoops-whoopsie.gif

Well if we're gonna take it there, let's just say 0-6 vs McHale.

McHale > Jordan

6-0

[Phoenix]

Well if we're gonna take it there, let's just say 0-6 vs McHale.

McHale > Jordan

6-0

0-6 vs Dennis Johnson too. Lets keep this going ,shall we....

[John8204]

So MJ shouldn't be ranked higher than anyone he has losing records against in the playoffs then.

0-6 vs Bird
10-12 vs Isiah



We don't classify MJ as the most dominant player of all-time

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AptImpossibleDouglasfirbarkbeetle-max-1mb.gif

[dankok8]

How is Hakeem quite way behind? Peak Hakeem is '93-'95 whilst peak Shaq is '00-'02. Let's look at their playoff contributions.

Shaq '00-'02: 29.9 PPG | 55.2% FG% | 56.2% TS% | 3.0 APG | 29.3 PER

Hakeem '93-'95: 29.8 PPG | 52.4% FG% | 56.8 TS% | 4.4 APG | 26.2 PER

Shaq has an edge here statistically, but I don't think the advantage is that significant. And I'd argue Hakeem actually had the edge when you consider who he went up against. Hakeem was guarded by bigs like Shaq, Ewing, and Robinson. Not to mention he had Rodman guard him sometimes in the series against SA. Shaq was busy thumping on Rik Smits and Todd MacCulloch. Mutombo, Sabonis, and Divac are better than those guys, but they're nothing in comparison to who Hakeem faced.

Also, I'd argue that Kobe was the Lakers' closer in those years in the playoffs and it was really a 1a/1b situation in the clutch. Hakeem had none of that and was money in the biggest moments and most important games.

Kobe came up huge in games 6 and 7 of the WCF in 2000. He also played extremely well in game 3 in the OT where Shaq had fouled out.

Stats can lie. Shaq was considerably superior to Hakeem on the offensive end in factors that don't show up on the stat sheet such as gravity/collapsing defenses, foul pressure on opponents and was a much better passer. Hakeem improved as a passer by the mid 90's but was still just a decent passer and could only occasionally punish double teams.

Hakeem's offensive impact pales in comparison to Shaq's... based on just about any metric out there.

[Phoenix]

We don't classify MJ as the most dominant player of all-time

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AptImpossibleDouglasfirbarkbeetle-max-1mb.gif

Nice try but the point still stands. Bringing up the '1-8 vs Stockton' point, like most of your arguments, is dumb at its core. One, because it more reflects that Utah was better than LA at that point and says nothing about who would be better between Stockton and Shaq. Two, Shaq and Stockton played two completely different positions therefore weren't matched up to make a 1:1 comparison. Three, even if you want to boil it down to names you act like Karl Malone, the 97 MVP and 98 runner-up, wasn't on those teams and dropping like 30 and 13 in those matchups to make some assinine point that Shaq is '1-8 against Stockton'.

[John8204]

Well we bring up Stockton because John was literally half of Shaq's size and yet he owned him in the playoffs. The narative on Shaq is that he's a top five all-time Big and the most dominant player ever. Yet that domination translated to on his best night in the playoffs the 83rd best scoring performance. Stockton's numbers have also held up over time, Malone's haven't. Remember Malone was getting those MVP's because he was chasing Kareem but as the years go by Malone isn't a top five PF anymore while Stockton is still a player we can't contextualize because of his insane stats.

But in your eyes winning four rings on three shady playoffs series is TIGHT.

[Phoenix]

Well we bring up Stockton because John was literally half of Shaq's size and yet he owned him in the playoffs. The narative on Shaq is that he's a top five all-time Big and the most dominant player ever. Yet that domination translated to on his best night in the playoffs the 83rd best scoring performance. Stockton's numbers have also held up over time, Malone's haven't. Remember Malone was getting those MVP's because he was chasing Kareem but as the years go by Malone isn't a top five PF anymore while Stockton is still a player we can't contextualize because of his insane stats.

But in your eyes winning four rings on three shady playoffs series is TIGHT.

Do the Lakers win those series if you swapped Stockton with Shaq? No? Ok then. The Jazz owned the Lakers, not Stockton owned Shaq, idiot.

Even with Stockton's 'untouchable' numbers, he was never considered MVP level( never higher than 7th in voting) and he's no more a lock for being considered a top 5 PG than Malone is a top 5 PF. Magic, Curry, Oscar and Isiah are all ranked above him ( rightfully so) and other PGs who've come along since who won't have his numbers but were/are clearly better individual players or at worse par( CP3, Nash, Kidd, Payton, etc). You're quite literally the only person I've ever seen rank Stockton in the top 20.

Malone's numbers hold up fine. He's third all-time in points and other than Lebron passing him( and everybody else up), there's nobody on the horizon that's any threat to knock him out of third place. He was top 10 in MVP voting every year but his rookie season and last year, including 9 top 5 finishes and two wins in 97 and 99. I'm not even a fan of his, but to act like Malone wasn't the main catalyst in this '8-1' record against Shaq, if you want to get into assigning personal credit, over Stockton is sheer idiocy.

[John8204]

Stockton is #3 in VOR Shaq is #18...advanced stats would have given Stockton multiple MVP's but narratives with different generations. Though the fact that you can't make an argument with name calling makes you look small. Also we saw how great teams were when they swapped with Shaq....they lost...a lot.

[Phoenix]

Stockton is #3 in VOR Shaq is #18...advanced stats would have given Stockton multiple MVP's but narratives with different generations. Though the fact that you can't make an argument with name calling makes you look small. Also we saw how great teams were when they swapped with Shaq....they lost...a lot.

Shaq is 5th in PER, Stockton is 40th. Advanced stats can push whatever agenda you want. Shaq started his career in the early 90s, during Stocktons generation, so whatever narrative you claim was back then for MVP applied to both. And Shaq was always ahead of him in the MVP voting from day one, because one was an actual MVP level player....and one wasn't.

I've made plenty of arguments without namecalling, but I have no problem calling dumb dumb when warranted. Don't like it? Go bitch about it on a sweater knitting board.

[Prometheus]

Stats can lie. Shaq was considerably superior to Hakeem on the offensive end in factors that don't show up on the stat sheet such as gravity/collapsing defenses, foul pressure on opponents and was a much better passer. Hakeem improved as a passer by the mid 90's but was still just a decent passer and could only occasionally punish double teams.

Hakeem's offensive impact pales in comparison to Shaq's... based on just about any metric out there.

Highly accurate. Correct in every way.

Hakeem was comfortably superior on defense. But Shaq was equally better on offense.

[Prometheus]

Dude, you will be a lot happier if you can avoid engaging in debates which are flat out retarded.

If someone tries to push a "Stockton > Shaq" narrative, you should just leave them alone. It's such a wildly stupid thing to suggest. They are not in the same stratosphere of basketball players.

[Phoenix]

Dude, you will be a lot happier if you can avoid engaging in debates which are flat out retarded.

If someone tries to push a "Stockton > Shaq" narrative, you should just leave them alone. It's such a wildly stupid thing to suggest. They are not in the same stratosphere of basketball players.

You're correct, I'm prone to engaging in conversations that clearly don't warrant this amount of energy.

[Prometheus]

You're correct, I'm prone to engaging in conversations that clearly don't warrant this amount of energy.

Been there brother! All too often.

[warriorfan]

Dude, you will be a lot happier if you can avoid engaging in debates which are flat out retarded.

If someone tries to push a "Stockton > Shaq" narrative, you should just leave them alone. It's such a wildly stupid thing to suggest. They are not in the same stratosphere of basketball players.

This. I’m adding that account to my ignore list. :oldlol:

[90sgoat]

Yeah and the easiest way to see this is to go back and watch Orlando Shaq, when he still tried to be a finesse center and playing further from the rim. A lot of ugly shots and hooks back then and didn't seem very successful.

Like you guy wrote, Shaq got a lot of his points from just getting low position and it was automatic or making quick moves or semi-transition.

If he didn't get good position and had to start at the high post, the Lakers would usually restart the play and have him change positions, which would lead to him getting the ball late in the shotclock and not having enough time and position for a good shot.

He was an underrated passer though and just wore down those defending him

[John8204]

Devin Booker just put up 47 points...which is more points than Shaq ever put up in his entire playoff career

the most dominant player in the history of the game...might be off the list entirely in the next 2-3 years

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_game_p.html

[Axe]

47 points? Oh wow, also higher than kawhi's playoff high of 45 points. :applause:

Booker > kawhi