All Time: Kevin Durant or Dirk Nowitzki

[WhiteKyrie]

Some guy said Dirk > KD. Curious to know general consensus here on ISH. Including all the ALTs from the Bronvestite kids.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk until KD proves he can lead a team. I’ll even say he’s the bus driver on this Suns team so if they win this year he gets max credit… :cheers:

[dazzer87]

Real ring > cheap ringz…..

[WhiteKyrie]

Real ring > cheap ringz…..

As basketball players. LeBron quit and/or choked away a series win in 2011

[DMAVS41]

As basketball players. LeBron quit and/or choked away a series win in 2011

Part of being a great basketball player is leading a franchise as the clear cut best player. It takes greatness in terms of ability and great mental toughness.

He might have, but I’ve honestly forgotten, does KD have a series in which he led his underdog team in a similar way Dirk did against the Spurs in 06?

Has he ever squeezed out the absolute most from his teammates?

If you are just talking pickup basketball or something, cool, but that isn’t what the NBA is.

[tpols]

Dirk is more mature and a better leader imo but with less talent. I don't think KD has any chance at winning on those mavs teams because he's never proven he could win without being an overwhelming favorite. He doesn't have the heart of Dirk. He's cowardly by comparison.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I like Dirk way more than KD, who's a weakass ring chasing TROLL.

Durant is the better player, though. Not by a whole lot but he brings more to the table. Also has the numbers, accolades and honors to back that up. Peak for peak is definitely close (Dirk's 2011 playoff run > anything KD has done) although I cant just ignore KD's rings in Golden State.

They don't carry the same weight, say, Jordan's rings do, but they still matter. If we were to wipe them then Curry's dont count either - and obviously nobody would agree with that.

[HoopologyPhD]

Dirk beat LeBron with washed versions of JKidd and Terry
Cupcake lost to LeBron with prime Westbrook, Harden
I might be missing something, but I don't recall Dirk being a petulant, whiny brat who is insecure enough to have his feelings hurt by internet trolls.
If Durant logged onto ISH, Suns would put him on suicide watch and ensure he had coloring books and puppy dogs to soothe his emotions.

[DMAVS41]

I like Dirk way more than KD, who's a weakass ring chasing TROLL.

Durant is the better player, though. Not by a whole lot but he brings more to the table. Also has the numbers, accolades and honors to back that up. Peak for peak is definitely close (Dirk's 2011 playoff run > anything KD has done) although I cant just ignore KD's rings in Golden State.

They don't carry the same weight, say, Jordan's rings do, but they still matter. If we were to wipe them then Curry's dont count either - and obviously nobody would agree with that.

I agree with some of this, but I’d also expect KD to have had more success in his circumstances if his impact on winning is clearly better than Dirk’s.

As far as the rings… nothing should be ignored, but Curry has proven shit both before and after Durant. Nobody can question him at this point. So it’s not a fair comparison you make.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I agree with some of this, but I’d also expect KD to have had more success in his circumstances if his impact on winning is clearly better than Dirk’s.

As far as the rings… nothing should be ignored, but Curry has proven shit both before and after Durant. Nobody can question him at this point. So it’s not a fair comparison you make.

I'm saying it goes both ways though.

If those rings mean less for KD then they also do for Curry. Him "proving shit" before or after isn't relevant to 2017...or 2018.

On most all-time lists, KD is generally rated higher. But there are seasons I would definitely take Dirk. It'd been interesting to see how he would've played with talent akin to OKC, GSW, Brooklyn and Dallas. My gut tells me Dirk would've added a few more rings and FMVPs to his resume, but of course that's all hypothetical.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Meant to say Phoenix instead of Dallas. But yeah, KD's played on loaded teams most of his career.

[dankok8]

I'm not talking about DMAVS obviously but there is a lot of KD hate going on. For all of his shortcomings how many chances did he really have to win a title outside of Golden State?

2012.. Ok the first year the team came into his own. Lose to Big 3 Heat.
2013.. Russ gets hurt in the playoffs.
2014.. Ibaka gets hurt against the Spurs. OKC does a lot better against the Spurs than Big 3 Heat would in the finals.
2015.. KD gets hurt.
2016.. Lose to juggernaut Warriors. People give Lebron GOAT consideration for beating this Warriors team but zero credit to KD for taking them 7 games.
2020.. KD injured all season
2021.. Harden and Kyrie both get injured. It's not really a reach to say that this Nets team probably wins it all if those guys are healthy.
2022.. Lost as a pretty heavy underdog.

Apart from 2022 you can't really say KD played poorly in any other loss either. And I can't really point to any single series that Durant's team lost that they really should have won. They were underdogs just about every time.

Dirk's Mavs on the other hand lost as favorites in a bunch of series like the 2006 Finals, 2007 Round 1 and 2010 Round 1 off the top of my head. If anything Dirk has more questionable playoff losses than KD does. Just IMHO.

[DMAVS41]

I'm saying it goes both ways though.

If those rings mean less for KD then they also do for Curry. Him "proving shit" before or after isn't relevant to 2017...or 2018.

On most all-time lists, KD is generally rated higher. But there are seasons I would definitely take Dirk. It'd been interesting to see how he would've played with talent akin to OKC, GSW, Brooklyn and Dallas. My gut tells me Dirk would've added a few more rings and FMVPs to his resume, but of course that's all hypothetical.

Well, yes… but we already do that with every player / ring. Nobody with a brain equates Kobe’s ring in 2000 with his in 09 or 10. My point was that KD hasn’t proven he can lead a team to a title. Do I think he can or could have? Yes, I do, but he’s had great circumstances in his career… and if he’s a clear better impact on winning player than Dirk, I would simply expect better results to date. Not even factoring in his health that has been an issue as well. We can’t just ignore that… part of being a great player is being healthy as often as possible. People may not like it, but it’s the truth…you have to play.

Nothing is “for sure”… but if we are talking hypotheticals… I’m pretty sure prime Dirk is winning title after title with Curry and that group.

[BarberSchool]

KD has better, more diverse offensive talent, better speed and leaping, better quickness. KD has better transition scoring, and Better overall scoring ability in more situations/playstyles. KD has significantly better perimeter defensive ability. Kd has good height and wingspan, but lacks the body and leg strength to play sturdy post defense and rebound against heavier players, KD’s very narrow chest, tiny waist, tiny hips, and very skinny legs are an advantage in transition speed, and leaping ability, but disadvantages in trying to play on ball post defense, or rebound with the bigs. KD can be moved at will very very easily by any 4, 5, or strong SF, despite his impressive 6’10.5-6’11” height. Good defense in passing lanes due to speed and wingspan, and decent help defense blocking shots again due to foot speed to cover ground in rotation and wingspan and leaping to extend to block or change shots.

Dirk has better post game, better post defense due to bigger/taller/wider frame, and heavier legs/hips/body. Bigger heavier skeleton gives Dirk much better rebounding, especially much better on defensive rebounding. A Dirk box out compared to a KD box out aren’t even close. Dirk had better passing out of double teams, and was slightly more clutch.

Their efficiency from 2/3/FT is roughly equivalent, both highly ranked alltime efficient scorers. KD slightly higher volume.

Dirk had better dependability and durability, despite his terrible knees and ankles, which were already bad during his prime, and robbed him of the transition offensive ability he had early in his career. But despite those bad knees and ankles, he still rarely missed time, and would play & perform thru pain much more than KD.

They both have a ring, but Dirk’s was done with much less talent, and KD’s ring is almost “not a real ring”

But I would still rank KD higher on the alltime list, due to better athleticism and better one on one perimeter scoring. Dirk would have been slightly more valuable in the previous post-dominant era’s in the 80’s or 90’s, KD is more valuable in the modern perimeter game.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not talking about DMAVS obviously but there is a lot of KD hate going on. For all of his shortcomings how many chances did he really have to win a title outside of Golden State?

2012.. Ok the first year the team came into his own. Lose to Big 3 Heat.
2013.. Russ gets hurt in the playoffs.
2014.. Ibaka gets hurt against the Spurs. OKC does a lot better against the Spurs than Big 3 Heat would in the finals.
2015.. KD gets hurt.
2016.. Lose to juggernaut Warriors. People give Lebron GOAT consideration for beating this Warriors team but zero credit to KD for taking them 7 games.
2020.. KD injured all season
2021.. Harden and Kyrie both get injured. It's not really a reach to say that this Nets team probably wins it all if those guys are healthy.
2022.. Lost as a pretty heavy underdog.

Apart from 2022 you can't really say KD played poorly in any other loss either. And I can't really point to any single series that Durant's team lost that they really should have won. They were underdogs just about every time.

Dirk's Mavs on the other hand lost as favorites in a bunch of series like the 2006 Finals, 2007 Round 1 and 2010 Round 1 off the top of my head. If anything Dirk has more questionable playoff losses than KD does. Just IMHO.

Injuries matter, they are part of this. Being injured more often makes you less impactful on winning.

To your examples, 2006 is tough because they were supposed to lose in round 2… so it’s hard to call that underperforming. 2010 is also a bit odd as there was basically no difference between that Spurs team and the Mavs. Calling that a real upset is a stretch imo.

Also, you are really underrating the 16 Thunder. You want to give KD credit for that? They were up 3-1 and KD completely shit the bed in game 6 at home. He absolutely had enough to beat then and he failed. Giving credit to KD for 16 and then saying Dirk deserves criticism for 06 doesn’t make sense. Dirk beat Duncan as an underdog in 7… the only series they lost in 3 years. The lens you are looking at them through is way off if 16 is a positive for Durant, but 06 is a negative for Dirk.

End of the day, Durant has had unreal circumstances most of his career and I’d expect more winning if he was as good as his proponents have suggested.

[Im Still Ballin]

This is a good one; I'll have to think about it.

Dirk feels more reliable to me. A stronger, broader, heavier frame - like BarberSchool said. You can't physically throw him off his game like you can Durant.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Well, yes… but we already do that with every player / ring. Nobody with a brain equates Kobe’s ring in 2000 with his in 09 or 10. My point was that KD hasn’t proven he can lead a team to a title. Do I think he can or could have? Yes, I do, but he’s had great circumstances in his career… and if he’s a clear better impact on winning player than Dirk, I would simply expect better results to date. Not even factoring in his health that has been an issue as well. We can’t just ignore that… part of being a great player is being healthy as often as possible. People may not like it, but it’s the truth…you have to play.

Nothing is “for sure”… but if we are talking hypotheticals… I’m pretty sure prime Dirk is winning title after title with Curry and that group.

Who is "we" though? There are a number of fans and even ISH posters who don't count Durant's rings.

But in the same breath will celebrate every playoff run from Curry

There's a clear double standard there whether you see it or not.

I also think KD's got a lot to prove. And just like you want to see him LEAD his team to a title. But we're probably in the minority here. Despite those criticisms...ESPN/SportsIllustrated and I believe even ISH all had KD just outside the Top 10. Somewhere between 12-15 which would be ahead of Dirk.

[tpols]

2016.. Lose to juggernaut Warriors. People give Lebron GOAT consideration for beating this Warriors team but zero credit to KD for taking them 7 games.


You want us to give KD credit for blowing a 3-1 lead and totally choking down the stretch in the elimination games?

[BallsOut]

I agree with some of this, but I’d also expect KD to have had more success in his circumstances if his impact on winning is clearly better than Dirk’s.

As far as the rings… nothing should be ignored, but Curry has proven shit both before and after Durant. Nobody can question him at this point. So it’s not a fair comparison you make.

I don’t see you have this same energy for LeBron. Dwayne Wade had proven shit before LeBron teamed up with him in Miami with Bosh.

Stay consistent dawg. It’ll make your hate Durant for what LeBron already did agenda less obvious.

[dankok8]

Injuries matter, they are part of this. Being injured more often makes you less impactful on winning.

To your examples, 2006 is tough because they were supposed to lose in round 2… so it’s hard to call that underperforming. 2010 is also a bit odd as there was basically no difference between that Spurs team and the Mavs. Calling that a real upset is a stretch imo.

Also, you are really underrating the 16 Thunder. You want to give KD credit for that? They were up 3-1 and KD completely shit the bed in game 6 at home. He absolutely had enough to beat then and he failed. Giving credit to KD for 16 and then saying Dirk deserves criticism for 06 doesn’t make sense. Dirk beat Duncan as an underdog in 7… the only series they lost in 3 years. The lens you are looking at them through is way off if 16 is a positive for Durant, but 06 is a negative for Dirk.

End of the day, Durant has had unreal circumstances most of his career and I’d expect more winning if he was as good as his proponents have suggested.

I agree that he isn't a true all-time great like a top 10 all timer and a tier ahead of Dirk. That I absolutely agree with. Durant will never be a contender for top 10 all time. And I agree with most of your post in fact. My response was simply to give the other perspective. However I do think 2006 was bad for Dirk worse than 2016 was for Durant. That's the only part I see things differently. The Warriors were still heavily favored over OKC while the Heat were underdogs against the Mavs. And Dirk played worse than KD did in those respective series.

As far as injuries I also agree that KD's relative lack of durability is a minus. I've always said a guy who is injured gets a zero contribution mark from me. Then again, he missed the 2015 playoffs and exited the 2019 playoffs early. That isn't too bad for a 16-year career at this point. As for the regular season I think this whole era is a joke where players are suiting up for 50 games but it's hard to penalize him for something everyone is doing. Or at least I don't know how to adjust for it fairly.

[dankok8]

You want us to give KD credit for blowing a 3-1 lead and totally choking down the stretch in the elimination games?

No. It's just weird that taking the "GOAT Warriors" to 7 games is nothing but beating them in 7 games is everything. I of course find Lebron's 2016 championship insanely overrated.

[DMAVS41]

Who is "we" though? There are a number of fans and even ISH posters who don't count Durant's rings.

But in the same breath will celebrate every playoff run from Curry

There's a clear double standard there whether you see it or not.

I also think KD's got a lot to prove. And just like you want to see him LEAD his team to a title. But we're probably in the minority here. Despite those criticisms...ESPN/SportsIllustrated and I believe even ISH all had KD just outside the Top 10. Somewhere between 12-15 which would be ahead of Dirk.

I’m arguing / giving my opinion. I know most disagree.

We is everyone whether they know it or not. The haters you talk about would rank Durant lower if he didn’t win on the Warriors. So it absolutely counts and matters to some degree.

That isn’t a double standard.

[DMAVS41]

I don’t see you have this same energy for LeBron. Dwayne Wade had proven shit before LeBron teamed up with him in Miami with Bosh.

Stay consistent dawg. It’ll make your hate Durant for what LeBron already did agenda less obvious.

I actually do… or did. I think Lebron has clearly answered those questions now.

[DMAVS41]

I agree that he isn't a true all-time great like a top 10 all timer and a tier ahead of Dirk. That I absolutely agree with. Durant will never be a contender for top 10 all time. And I agree with most of your post in fact. My response was simply to give the other perspective. However I do think 2006 was bad for Dirk worse than 2016 was for Durant. That's the only part I see things differently. The Warriors were still heavily favored over OKC while the Heat were underdogs against the Mavs. And Dirk played worse than KD did in those respective series.

As far as injuries I also agree that KD's relative lack of durability is a minus. I've always said a guy who is injured gets a zero contribution mark from me. Then again, he missed the 2015 playoffs and exited the 2019 playoffs early. That isn't too bad for a 16-year career at this point. As for the regular season I think this whole era is a joke where players are suiting up for 50 games but it's hard to penalize him for something everyone is doing. Or at least I don't know how to adjust for it fairly.

But the only reason the Mavs made the finals was because Dirk led them to upset the Spurs with a great series and all-time great road game 7.

You are penalizing Dirk for doing what Durant couldn’t. In your view, it would have been better for Dirk to play poorly in game 7 and lose in round 2 because he was an underdog?

Dirk was way better against the Spurs in 06 than Durant was in 16 against the Warriors. Wasn’t even close iirc… Durant just had to be pretty good in that series to win for him… and he wasn’t.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I’m arguing / giving my opinion. I know most disagree.

We is everyone whether they know it or not. The haters you talk about would rank Durant lower if he didn’t win on the Warriors. So it absolutely counts and matters to some degree.

That isn’t a double standard.

Its a clear double standard. And a big reason KD left Golden State.

These people don't even value those FMVPs, so no, they probably wouldn't rank him lower.

[Manny98]

If I was starting a team I'd have a better chance of winning building a team around Dirk than KD so I have Dirk higher all time

2011 Dirk beats any KD season imo

[DMAVS41]

Its a clear double standard. And a big reason KD left Golden State.

These people don't even value those FMVPs, so no, they probably wouldn't rank him lower.

Disagree.

KD gets legit top 10 talk and top 15 talk… he’d never get that if he stayed on the Thunder or went somewhere and was ringless.

Have no clue what you are arguing.

[BallsOut]

I actually do… or did. I think Lebron has clearly answered those questions now.

What questions has Lebron answered that Durant hasn't?

Winning finals MVP on a stacked team? Durant already answered that in GS.

Lebron has never won a ring without a stacked team with at least 3 all stars. Hell he had 5 of them in 2020 including Anthony Davis who is better than anyone not named KD on those Warriors rosters.

I only ask for you to stay consistent with your agenda please.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Disagree.

KD gets legit top 10 talk and top 15 talk… he’d never get that if he stayed on the Thunder or went somewhere and was ringless.

Have no clue what you are arguing.

Lol where does KD get "legit top 10" talk?

Fans and all of sports talk have him outside of that. And don't value his FMVPs which is exactly why he left Golden State.

Not hard to comprehend.

[DMAVS41]

I’ve heard Zach Lowe call him that and say for sure top 15.

Yes, it isn’t hard to comprehend…. if he was ringless, people would rank him lower.

You are confusing him getting less credit than others for no credit at all.

He left GS for the same reason he left OKC… he’s mentally weak. Or at least he was, maybe he’s tougher now.

[DMAVS41]

What questions has Lebron answered that Durant hasn't?

Winning finals MVP on a stacked team? Durant already answered that in GS.

Lebron has never won a ring without a stacked team with at least 3 all stars. Hell he had 5 of them in 2020 including Anthony Davis who is better than anyone not named KD on those Warriors rosters.

I only ask for you to stay consistent with your agenda please.

Durant won a ring with a team similar to the 13 Heat? He won a ring with a team like the 16 Cavs? He won a ring with a team similar to the 2020 Lakers?

Durant has been as healthy as Lebron throughout his career?

Not sure what reality you live in. The Warriors won before Durant and after. Nothing at all like how Lebron won post 2012.

[tpols]

Durant won a ring with a team similar to the 13 Heat? He won a ring with a team like the 16 Cavs? He won a ring with a team similar to the 2020 Lakers?

Durant has been as healthy as Lebron throughout his career?

Not sure what reality you live in. The Warriors won before Durant and after. Nothing at all like how Lebron won post 2012.

Playing with the Lakers and Anthony Davis or Miami and Dwayne Wade? See that is a double standard... Durant can't play with Curry but Lebron can play with those guys and get credit. Makes no sense.

[BallsOut]

Durant won a ring with a team similar to the 13 Heat? He won a ring with a team like the 16 Cavs? He won a ring with a team similar to the 2020 Lakers?

Durant has been as healthy as Lebron throughout his career?

Not sure what reality you live in. The Warriors won before Durant and after. Nothing at all like how Lebron won post 2012.

13 Heat, 16 Cavs and 30 Lakers all had at least 3 all stars and overwhelming more than any of their opponents. Fact. Durant won with something similar. Don't hate him and praise Lebron for using the same method to get his rings. It's very hypocritical.

The Heat won before Lebron. The Lakers won before Lebron. The Cavs have been pretty shit in comparison historically. But you add 3 all stars to a team and then take them all away and what do you expect to happen?

Sure Lebron has been more durable.

[Norcaliblunt]

Dirk got surrounded with all time great veteran role player talent and Lebron choked.

That’s how he won.

If Phoenix resigns Amare Stoudemire the Suns win the 2011 chip and Nash is looked at like Dirk.

It’s all narrative.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah...nobody calls Kevin Durant top 10 lol

We're going in circles so lets get back on track. I've already said his rings don't carry as much weight as MJ's do. Or even Duncan and Shaq's. Despite this though, KD's resume is still generally considered greater than Dirk's. I mean, the OP says "all-time" not "better" which is probably a bit more arguable.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Playing with the Lakers and Anthony Davis or Miami and Dwayne Wade? See that is a double standard... Durant can't play with Curry but Lebron can play with those guys and get credit. Makes no sense.

That's what I'm saying. :lol People pick and choose what narratives they like

IMO Steph was better than KD in 2017 and 2018, and that KD actually has more to prove. But also admit I'm in the minority.

[tpols]

13 Heat, 16 Cavs and 30 Lakers all had at least 3 all stars and overwhelming more than any of their opponents. Fact. Durant won with something similar. Don't hate him and praise Lebron for using the same method to get his rings. It's very hypocritical.

The Heat won before Lebron. The Lakers won before Lebron. The Cavs have been pretty shit in comparison historically. But you add 3 all stars to a team and then take them all away and what do you expect to happen?

Sure Lebron has been more durable.

'13 Heat and '16 cavs were both preseason favorites to be champion as well. '20 Lakers were 2nd at +450 to the clippers +425... essentially co-favorites for the title.

It is funny how Durant gets crucified for playing with great help but Lebron gets a free pass. I personally think I may have dirk over both of them because there ain't no way in hell either lebron or Durant win with Jason terry at 2nd option.

[DMAVS41]

Playing with the Lakers and Anthony Davis or Miami and Dwayne Wade? See that is a double standard... Durant can't play with Curry but Lebron can play with those guys and get credit. Makes no sense.

LOL

If you took Lebron off those teams outside of the 12 Heat and replaced him with Wiggins… they’d have no chance to win. Zero. Wade and Bosh were diminished in 13… you guys seem to forget that.

The Warriors… without Durant and no replacement still easily made the finals and still might have won if Klay doesn’t get hurt.

Then they won a title last year without him.

You clowns need to stop comparing the situations. It is true that Lebron had great help most years he won. It is not true that he could have been replaced with nobody or a guy like Wiggins and this teams could still win.

Anthony Davis and Wiggins would win a title together…. I always think I’ve heard it all… you guys never cease to amaze.

[ArbitraryWater]

big ouch for OP

[Norcaliblunt]

Put Durant on that Dallas team loaded with veteran role player talent and he wins the title if Lebron decides to choke.

Bottom line.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah...nobody calls Kevin Durant top 10 lol

We're going in circles so lets get back on track. I've already said his rings don't carry as much weight as MJ's do. Or even Duncan and Shaq's. Despite this though, KD's resume is still generally considered greater than Dirk's. I mean, the OP says "all-time" not "better" which is probably a bit more arguable.

Pretty sure ESPN in 2020 had Durant 14th all-time. There is no ****ing way they would have him there if he was ringless.

You can’t be taken seriously if you fail to acknowledge that.

[ArbitraryWater]

Put Durant on that Dallas team loaded with veteran role player talent and he wins the title if Lebron decides to choke.

Bottom line.

I sure as hell dont trust KD to close out that game 2 and game 4 like that.

[Norcaliblunt]

I sure as hell dont trust KD to close out that game 2 and game 4 like that.

Just like I wouldn’t trust Dirk to hit pull up threes to win not one but 2 titles.

[tpols]

Put Durant on that Dallas team loaded with veteran role player talent and he wins the title if Lebron decides to choke.

Bottom line.

Doubt that.

Funny thing is Dirk ran through KD in that 2011 run as well. I remember Durant choking and getting locked up by Shawn Marion. He wasn't winning shit with that Dallas cast.

[DMAVS41]

Just like I wouldn’t trust Dirk to hit pull up threes to win not one but 2 titles.

Just to be clear… you are arguing prime Dirk couldn’t win on those Warriors?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pretty sure ESPN in 2020 had Durant 14th all-time. There is no ****ing way they would have him there if he was ringless.

You can’t be taken seriously if you fail to acknowledge that.

What's this gotta do with the post you quoted? I literally just said KD's rings have value, just not the same weight. That has been my point the entire time.

In a vacuum, KD's resume is probably top 10. But nobody actually puts him there :oldlol:

[Norcaliblunt]

Seriously Dirks career is some straight up revisionist shit. Dude was the ultimate choke artist until Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Stevenson, Barrea, Terry, Butler etc bailed him out.

[ArbitraryWater]

Seriously Dirks career is some straight up revisionist shit. Dude was the ultimate choke artist until Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Stevenson, Barrea, Terry, Butler etc bailed him out.

really? ultimate choke artists cause of 2006 in which he dragged a team to the finals and 2007, which is basically his only underachievement year?

And wtf is KDs career outside of GSW? :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

What's this gotta do with the post you quoted? I literally just said KD's rings have value, just not the same weight. That has been my point the entire time.

In a vacuum, KD's resume is probably top 10. But nobody actually puts him there :oldlol:

You have been arguing that people give him no credit and I’m simply explaining to you that isn’t true.

And, yes, I’ve heard Lowe say top 10… but in fairness I think he came back to reality later and said top 15.

Regardless…KD got a boost from those rings.

[B.L.M.Activist]

Seriously Dirks career is some straight up revisionist shit. Dude was the ultimate choke artist until Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Stevenson, Barrea, Terry, Butler etc bailed him out.

This.

Durant only lost to teams like the 2012 Heat. 2014 Spurs, and 2016 Warriors with Westbrick and horrible role players and bad coaching. Nobody is winning in those circumstances.

On Golden State he was the leader and was deferred to in the clutch almost every time. He led a near undefeteaded playoff team if not for curry choking and had 2 of the best finals performances ever.


Dirk had a fluke title in 2011 because lebron had his worst series ever in part due to the Mavs impeccable high IQ team defense and coaching master class. Dirk put up 24ppg on low efficiency and played no defense. That's his claim to fame.

[DMAVS41]

Seriously Dirks career is some straight up revisionist shit. Dude was the ultimate choke artist until Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Stevenson, Barrea, Terry, Butler etc bailed him out.

Imagine posting this non-ironically in a comparison of Dirk/KD.

So, the pro Durant side is arguing Dirk got bailed out by great help to win and that Anthony Davis and Wiggins would have won a title together.

Not sure you guys sent your best.

[BallsOut]

Imagine posting this non-ironically in a comparison of Dirk/KD.

So, the pro Durant side is arguing Dirk got bailed out by great help to win and that Anthony Davis and Wiggins would have won a title together.

Not sure you guys sent your best.

Strawman here. No one is saying Anthony Davis and Andrew Wiggins alone is winning a title together.

If you're going to make arguments at least be fair and include all the information.

Anthony Davis, Andrew Wiggins, DeMarcus Cousins, Rajon Rondo AND Dwight Howard all on the same team could easily win a title.

Hell replace Andrew Wiggins with a mobile mailbox and they probably still would win one.

That's how laughable that 2020 title was. No other team in the NBA had even close to that calibur of talent assembled on their roster that year and hell maybe any other year prior to that in NBA history.

[ArbitraryWater]

This.

Durant only lost to teams like the 2012 Heat. 2014 Spurs, and 2016 Warriors with Westbrick and horrible role players and bad coaching. Nobody is winning in those circumstances.


Durant played worse than Dirk ever did in 2014 as MVP against the Grizz. Reggie Jackson bailed him out though.

Also he pvayed with Russ, Ibaka, Harden, the most stacked team at the time. Id hope he would only lose to those and it still took a crazy amount of fortune to do so.

[ShawkFactory]

Playing with the Lakers and Anthony Davis or Miami and Dwayne Wade? See that is a double standard... Durant can't play with Curry but Lebron can play with those guys and get credit. Makes no sense.

It's not just Curry...

It was a well-oiled machine and already great roster who won 73 games the season prior and a title the year before that.

The Lakers trading half their roster for AD...is not the same thing.

[ImKobe]

really? ultimate choke artists cause of 2006 in which he dragged a team to the finals and 2007, which is basically his only underachievement year?

And wtf is KDs career outside of GSW? :oldlol:

What is KD's career besides his two best post-season runs during his prime.. can we do the same with Dirk?

Dirk lost in the 1st round in his MVP/67-win season & lost in the 1st round in 2010 as a #2 seed despite Tony Parker coming off the bench due to injuries..

This poll is ridiculous btw. Dirk is nowhere near KD: whether we look at peak play, longevity or career achievements or their consistency in the POs.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You have been arguing that people give him no credit and I’m simply explaining to you that isn’t true.

And, yes, I’ve heard Lowe say top 10… but in fairness I think he came back to reality later and said top 15.

Regardless…KD got a boost from those rings.

You're conflating the "haters" I spoke about earlier to where the media ranks him. Of course he gets a boost from winning rings.

But if you read back, I was pretty clear in specifying FMVPs. Normally a player with two of them and the resume Durant has...isn't just top 15. They're closer to 10 if not right there. With the help of Draymond, KD recognized all of that and chose to leave Golden State.

[Norcaliblunt]

Imagine posting this non-ironically in a comparison of Dirk/KD.

So, the pro Durant side is arguing Dirk got bailed out by great help to win and that Anthony Davis and Wiggins would have won a title together.

Not sure you guys sent your best.

It’s not even pro Durant. Dirk and him are very similar players talent wise. Its a close call.

It’s about this narrative that what Dirk did in 2011 is some amazing accomplishment that KD could never duplicate. Dirk had a perfectly experienced and hungry veteran team of former all stars built around him. And Lebron choked.

If Phoenix resigns Amare the Suns win that chip no doubt in my mind.

[tpols]

Strawman here. No one is saying Anthony Davis and Andrew Wiggins alone is winning a title together.

If you're going to make arguments at least be fair and include all the information.

Anthony Davis, Andrew Wiggins, DeMarcus Cousins, Rajon Rondo AND Dwight Howard all on the same team could easily win a title.

Hell replace Andrew Wiggins with a mobile mailbox and they probably still would win one.

That's how laughable that 2020 title was. No other team in the NBA had even close to that calibur of talent assembled on their roster that year and hell maybe any other year prior to that in NBA history.

Seriously what is this guy ranting on about Wiggins. Lebrons teams were title favorites in every year he won at the start of the season. And he was adding All NBA guys at 3rd option and stacking the team up down the whole roster. It's always been a huge double standard.

[B.L.M.Activist]

Durant played worse than Dirk ever did in 2014 as MVP against the Grizz. Reggie Jackson bailed him out though.

Also he pvayed with Russ, Ibaka, Harden, the most stacked team at the time. Id hope he would only lose to those and it still took a crazy amount of fortune to do so.

No, Dirk definitely played worse in 07 and plenty of other series.

Pretty funny Durant scoring 30/10 on good efficiency is considered a horrible performance, going up against one of the greatest 1v1 perimeter defenders ever and no spacing.

He played with Harden for the 2012 run and Harden had 12ppg and was atrocious in the finals.

Ibaka?:oldlol:

Durant had the most dysfunctional lineups and garbage coaching every year in OKC. He made it work due to his extreme gravity and overall skill set. He easily clears Dirk. Not close.

[B.L.M.Activist]

What is KD's career besides his two best post-season runs during his prime.. can we do the same with Dirk?

Dirk lost in the 1st round in his MVP/67-win season & lost in the 1st round in 2010 as a #2 seed despite Tony Parker coming off the bench due to injuries..

This poll is ridiculous btw. Dirk is nowhere near KD: whether we look at peak play, longevity or career achievements or their consistency in the POs.

This is accurate.

Durant is crazy underrated as a player. He's not perfect and has some blemishes like all players, but he mostly wins at a high level and elevates teammates. Injuries and bad luck define most of his losses.

[DMAVS41]

Strawman here. No one is saying Anthony Davis and Andrew Wiggins alone is winning a title together.

If you're going to make arguments at least be fair and include all the information.

Anthony Davis, Andrew Wiggins, DeMarcus Cousins, Rajon Rondo AND Dwight Howard all on the same team could easily win a title.

Hell replace Andrew Wiggins with a mobile mailbox and they probably still would win one.

That's how laughable that 2020 title was. No other team in the NBA had even close to that calibur of talent assembled on their roster that year and hell maybe any other year prior to that in NBA history.

You just argued it. How is it a strawman?

You just argued that the 2020 Lakers win with Wiggins in place of Lebron.

Yea, terrible take. You’d get laughed out of the room.

[DMAVS41]

It’s not even pro Durant. Dirk and him are very similar players talent wise. Its a close call.

It’s about this narrative that what Dirk did in 2011 is some amazing accomplishment that KD could never duplicate. Dirk had a perfectly experienced and hungry veteran team of former all stars built around him. And Lebron choked.

If Phoenix resigns Amare the Suns win that chip no doubt in my mind.

Durant had exactly that in 2016 and just had to play pretty good to win… he didn’t.

I also never said that Durant couldn’t do that… I said he hasn’t…. and I’m not just granting KD titles as the leader of a team. He has to actually do it.

Hopefully he does it this year so when he’s like 11th all-time or better… it’s not as dumb as it is now.

[tpols]

It's not just Curry...

It was a well-oiled machine and already great roster who won 73 games the season prior and a title the year before that.

The Lakers trading half their roster for AD...is not the same thing.

The Lakers were totally stacked and he was playing with an absolute superstar just like Curry. AD dominated the 2020 playoffs. And of course the Heat and Cavs teams were the vegas title favorites every year and stacked to the brim.

The point is team hopping with superstars is used to disqualify KD and others get a free pass.The Heat initially claimed they would win 6+ titles together and then went on to win only 2, with one coming by way of a miracle. Overall a losing Finals record together.

Gotta keep it consistent. Dirk won with less than both of them and beat both of them when they both had more help than him. That's the reality of this situation.

[B.L.M.Activist]

Durant had exactly that in 2016 and just had to play pretty good to win… he didn’t.

I also never said that Durant couldn’t do that… I said he hasn’t…. and I’m not just granting KD titles as the leader of a team. He has to actually do it.

Hopefully he does it this year so when he’s like 11th all-time or better… it’s not as dumb as it is now.

If he faced easier team in 2012 and lebron performed like he did in 2011, well, at age 23 he'd have that if you wanna exclude his two titles he unquestionably led in 2017-2018. (They deferred to him in the clutch from day1)

He was good enough at age 23 to do what you said bit ran into peak Heat.

You're conflating luck with ability. Dirk got lucky in 2011 and that's why he won. There was nothing special that separated his game from 2012 Durant.

Guys like you don't like context. You struggle with the abstract.

[DMAVS41]

You're conflating the "haters" I spoke about earlier to where the media ranks him. Of course he gets a boost from winning rings.

But if you read back, I was pretty clear in specifying FMVPs. Normally a player with two of them and the resume Durant has...isn't just top 15. They're closer to 10 if not right there. With the help of Draymond, KD recognized all of that and chose to leave Golden State.

It isn’t a double standard to not value KD’s finals MVP’s as highly as most because of the absurdity of him joining a team good enough to win without him or with a much worse replacement.

I have no idea why you would ever think that people solely go off accomplishments and accolades without context.

[DMAVS41]

The Lakers were totally stacked and he was playing with an absolute superstar just like Curry. AD dominated the 2020 playoffs. And of course the Heat and Cavs teams were the vegas title favorites every year and stacked to the brim.

The point is team hopping with superstars is used to disqualify KD and others get a free pass.The Heat initially claimed they would win 6+ titles together and then went on to win only 2, with one coming by way of a miracle. Overall a losing Finals record together.

Gotta keep it consistent. Dirk won with less than both of them and beat both of them when they both had more help than him. That's the reality of this situation.

All stacked teams are not the same. Just stop it.

You take KD off the Warriors and they make the finals and could still win.
You take Lebron off the 20 Lakers and I doubt they win a series.

[DMAVS41]

If he faced easier team in 2012 and lebron performed like he did in 2011, well, at age 23 he'd have that if you wanna exclude his two titles he unquestionably led in 2017-2018. (They deferred to him in the clutch from day1)

He was good enough at age 23 to do what you said bit ran into peak Heat.

You're conflating luck with ability. Dirk got lucky in 2011 and that's why he won. There was nothing special that separated his game from 2012 Durant.

Guys like you don't like context. You struggle with the abstract.

Ah, the bad luck excuse. Yes, just bad luck explains it all.

What was the bad luck in 2016?

[BallsOut]

You just argued it. How is it a strawman?

You just argued that the 2020 Lakers win with Wiggins in place of Lebron.

Yea, terrible take. You’d get laughed out of the room.

Nah I didn't. Read it again. Your bias is clouding your vision I see.

It doesn't take a genius to understand if you put together an Olympic roster of 5 all star players you can win a title. I'm laughing at you actually giving credit to a team that everyone expected to win just because they had overwhelmingly more talent on their roster than any other nba team. Yeah real NBA fans don't respect that 2020 title. That's something I could do with any 5 all stars in NBA 2k game.

[B.L.M.Activist]

Ah, the bad luck excuse. Yes, just bad luck explains it all.

What was the bad luck in 2016?

Losing to a 73 win team is losing to a 73 win team. Fatigue? Number 1 defense? Bad coach?

It doesn't matter. Everyone has blemishes. Dirk scored like 19ppg on 35% vs the 8 seed. Durant scored near 30 vs the number 1 defense and 73 win team. I'll let you decide which is worse.

You ignored my point. The 2011 Heat with LeBron scoring 18ppg and doing nothing in clutch time would've been easy for the 2012 Thunder. Thus you are a results thinker instead of a logic thinker. That's why you lose.

And if you wanna go pure results Durant has 3 finals performances better than Dirk has. And way less damaging losses. So you lose either way you look it. You're a narrative based thinker.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It isn’t a double standard to not value KD’s finals MVP’s as highly as most because of the absurdity of him joining a team good enough to win without him or with a much worse replacement.

I have no idea why you would ever think that people solely go off accomplishments and accolades without context.

Obviously, but I never said that was a double standard.

What I said was Steph gets more credit in 2017 and 2018. Even though Durant won those FMVPs.

Far as "context" goes, people ESPECIALLY in the media pick and choose what to value. Not all, but much of it is narrative based.

[BigShotBob]

KD is higher all time he's a top 20 player Dirk is top 25

[DMAVS41]

Obviously, but I never said that was a double standard.

What I said was Steph gets more credit in 2017 and 2018. Even though Durant won those FMVPs.

Far as "context" goes, people ESPECIALLY in the media pick and choose what to value. Not all, but much of it is narrative based.

Steph doesn’t get more credit though. I tried explaining this to you. He’s just not hated on as much, rightfully so. He’s accomplished way more without Durant than Durant has without him.

[DMAVS41]

Nah I didn't. Read it again. Your bias is clouding your vision I see.

It doesn't take a genius to understand if you put together an Olympic roster of 5 all star players you can win a title. I'm laughing at you actually giving credit to a team that everyone expected to win just because they had overwhelmingly more talent on their roster than any other nba team. Yeah real NBA fans don't respect that 2020 title. That's something I could do with any 5 all stars in NBA 2k game.

You are incoherent.

You have now multiple times acted like the 20 Lakers without Lebron are similar to the Warriors without Durant.

It is idiotic, but at least own up to it when you get called out.

[BallsOut]

You are incoherent.

You have now multiple times acted like the 20 Lakers without Lebron are similar to the Warriors without Durant.

It is idiotic, but at least own up to it when you get called out.

The funny thing is you went from strawman arguments to personal insults when I presented the facts. I think I'm done here. Have a nice day and life.

[tpols]

All stacked teams are not the same. Just stop it.

You take KD off the Warriors and they make the finals and could still win.
You take Lebron off the 20 Lakers and I doubt they win a series.

And if you put KD together with AD and an awesome supporting cast and give him that 2020 slate of opponents they'd win an easy ring too. Every single team they faced they would have a huge talent advantage on. So yea there's not much of a difference. Ones a 9.9/10 and ones a 9.6/10. Both overwhelming favorites.

[DMAVS41]

The funny thing is you went from strawman arguments to personal insults when I presented the facts. I think I'm done here. Have a nice day and life.

Incoherent isn’t an insult.

You are not making sense. Sorry you don’t like it.

If you are not saying the 20 Lakers are on the Warriors level, great… you agree with me.

[DMAVS41]

And if you put KD together with AD and an awesome supporting cast and give him that 2020 slate of opponents they'd win an easy ring too. Every single team they faced they would have a huge talent advantage on. So yea there's not much of a difference. Ones a 9.9/10 and ones a 9.6/10. Both overwhelming favorites.

Maybe, maybe not.

I’d like to see Durant lead a team before I start giving him easy rings in hypotheticals.

[B.L.M.Activist]

Maybe, maybe not.

I’d like to see Durant lead a team before I start giving him easy rings in hypotheticals.

He led a finals team at age 23.

You don't think they beat the 2015 Cavs wo Irving and Love like the Warriors did which is what you consider one of Currys grand accomplishment outside of Durant? So you're literally saying opponent luck is the difference. The 2012 Spurs weren't a title contender? They were better than the 2015 Cavs and 2022 Celtics that Curry beat.

I'd ignore my logic too. It destroys your silly narratives.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Steph doesn’t get more credit though. I tried explaining this to you. He’s just not hated on as much, rightfully so. He’s accomplished way more without Durant than Durant has without him.

Right. And I told you I disagree with your explanation. If Curry doesn’t get more credit for those titles then he isn't criticized for them either.

Thats the point here.

There's a double standard. One that so happens to influence ranking.

[WhiteKyrie]

27/7/4 > 21/8/2

Neither is a good defender, but KD has that advantage too. He’s the better basketball player. Dirk was a jump shooting scorer. KD does that in a much more versatile and superior way. 6 ppg difference in quality to be exact. That’s not small potatoes.

[DMAVS41]

He led a finals team at age 23.

You don't think they beat the 2015 Cavs wo Irving and Love like the Warriors did which is what you consider one of Currys grand accomplishment outside of Durant? So you're literally saying opponent luck is the difference. The 2012 Spurs weren't a title contender? They were better than the 2015 Cavs and 2022 Celtics that Curry beat.

I'd ignore my logic too. It destroys your silly narratives.

Making the finals is different than winning.

However, I actually agree with your stance on luck and have written as such. My problem with people like you is that you don't apply it fairly to all players. Do it for everyone.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Making the finals is different than winning.

However, I actually agree with your stance on luck and have written as such. My problem with people like you is that you don't apply it fairly to all players. Do it for everyone.

People who average what KD has averaged over 15 years and dominated the finals are in the top 10 conversation.


Durant is a better scorer, passer, and defender than Dirk while being dominant in the finals. Dirk doesn't get the same leniency because he performed much worse in his losses against worse teams than Durant did.

Your entire argument for Dirk is... "I want to see Durant lead a team"... he's done it every year of his career. At 23 he led a finals team that ran into a buzz saw and from 2016-2018 he led the greatest team ever and dominated the finals like few ever have.

You rely on silly narratives to form your opinions instead of just judging basketball ability. You can't erase Durant leading the best team ever just because you don't like how he got there.

And you can spare me the Curry argument. They deferred to Durant in the clutch from day 1. He was the guy. He dominated the finals and hit all the big shots.

[ArbitraryWater]

Making the finals is different than winning.

However, I actually agree with your stance on luck and have written as such. My problem with people like you is that you don't apply it fairly to all players. Do it for everyone.

I see BLM Activist has no comeback for that one!

[ArbitraryWater]

Genuinely, Durants 2017-2018 titles do NOTHING for me. They dont matter, afaic.

He joined a team that aready won a championship without him. The very same team.

Its 0 accomplishment in that. 0.

Its virtually the same for the Suns, who were a coupe plays across 2 games from a title. And Im sure he will come up short again. Why?

Because uness he plays for the championship Warriors, he always does.

[DMAVS41]

People who average what KD has averaged over 15 years and dominated the finals are in the top 10 conversation.


Durant is a better scorer, passer, and defender than Dirk while being dominant in the finals. Dirk doesn't get the same leniency because he performed much worse in his losses against worse teams than Durant did.

Your entire argument for Dirk is... "I want to see Durant lead a team"... he's done it every year of his career. At 23 he led a finals team that ran into a buzz saw and from 2016-2018 he led the greatest team ever and dominated the finals like few ever have.

You rely on silly narratives to form your opinions instead of just judging basketball ability. You can't erase Durant leading the best team ever just because you don't like how he got there.

And you can spare me the Curry argument. They deferred to Durant in the clutch from day 1. He was the guy. He dominated the finals and hit all the big shots.

It actually isn't just that...although I do think we can zoom out and just simply say that players have to produce certain results given their circumstances. Durant has spent virtually his entire career and certainly his prime/peak always being flanked by at least one in prime first ball hall of famer. A top 10 player of all time with that kind of help, in my opinion, has better results. In order to put him top 10...he needed to beat the Mavs in 11 or the Heat in 12 or the Spurs in 14 or the Warriors in 16 or the Bucks in 21...he's also struggled with his health. That definitely hurts him in rankings...being able to play actually matters. Sorry...

But if you want to talk strictly basketball and all that entails. I think Durant too easily gets pushed off his spots. I think he doesn't quite trust his teammates as often as he should. He's more of a gunner than a team oriented offensive engine. I also think he's over-rated as a passer, but that wasn't Dirk's strength either.

He's clearly one of the best scorer/shooters ever...has improved defensively...and is no doubt one of the best players ever. I just don't think he's been as good as you claim overall and think he's been inflated because of his time on the Warriors where life could not have been easier for him. Huge margin of error nearly every night and certainly every series.

Durant is also mentally weak. I question whether he has the mental strength to fight through with a team all year and carry the burden of all that pressure as being the clear cut "man" for a franchise. He seemed to not want that in OKC...and ever since he's only joined up in situations where there is another guy to take a lot of that pressure. That might not matter to you, but it does to me and I think his mental weakness has definitely impacted his team on the court at times in his career.


When it comes to Dirk. I think his patented pick and pop and pick/nail switch offensive game was more valuable both individually and for his team. I don't think Durant could consistently get as much out of his teammates as Dirk did. People like you are always referencing the win totals of Dirk's teams to illustrate their strength without actually talking about the players. Dirk had some good...and even a couple great teams imo, but he squeezed a lot out of those casts to get them where they went.

Dirk was also an excellent defensive rebounder and better defender than he gets credit for. He was notorious for playing through pain and hardly missed any games for most of his peak/prime. Really didn't miss any real time until the 2013 season iirc. Being healthy and on the court matters.

I think you should read this:

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/

I also invite you to read a take from someone that has no skin in the game:

https://thinkingbasketball.net/2018/03/05/backpicks-goat-26-kevin-durant/

I agree with some of that and actually think he's too hard on Durant in some areas. I'd definitely have Durant higher than 26 when it was written and 22 as well. But this notion that Durant is some near perfect basketball player just isn't true. He's been blessed with insanely good circumstances and the few times we've seen him without those...he's done nothing noteworthy.

All-time great...just not a top 10 level player like most of you seem to think. And to be clearly better than that 15 to 20 or so range of guys...he has to actually produce and do shit those other guys didn't do...especially considering his blessed circumstances.

I don't care to really debate Curry vs Durant as it isn't worth my time. The evidence has shown Curry is clearly the more valuable player in terms of winning and leading a franchise.

[DMAVS41]

Right. And I told you I disagree with your explanation. If Curry doesn’t get more credit for those titles then he isn't criticized for them either.

Thats the point here.

There's a double standard. One that so happens to influence ranking.

I honestly don't know what you mean. Why would he get criticized for winning titles?

[BigShotBob]

Genuinely, Durants 2017-2018 titles do NOTHING for me. They dont matter, afaic.

He joined a team that aready won a championship without him. The very same team.

Its 0 accomplishment in that. 0.

Its virtually the same for the Suns, who were a coupe plays across 2 games from a title. And Im sure he will come up short again. Why?

Because uness he plays for the championship Warriors, he always does.

He joined a team that choked a 3-1 series lead and their UMVP was outplayed by Lebron's running mate Kyrie who continuously outplays him h2h.

You're more upset at KD stopping Lebron's superteam cavs from steamrolling Curry and Klay (who was a piss poor Finals 2nd option) than you are at what KD did.

He was still a 2 time FMVP that had to drop 43 points on the road in the Finals that Curry scored 12 points in.

Let the hate go. KD is a legend and will always be remembered as one.

[WhiteKyrie]

I do find it hilariously peculiar LeBron fan boys crucify, hypocritically, Kevin Durant for his championships with the Warriors.

While conveniently ignoring LeBron, stacking the deck talent wise, or forcing trades for superstar players on other organizations that happen to share the same sports agency.

It’s the same thing. Only difference is one proved to be a championship team even before they got him. The other just ends up being an overwhelming favorite due to obvious disproportionate talent.

But it’s still cowardly deck stacking to win championships as easily as possible, from both of them. They’re both competitive cowards.

At least with the Durant thing, I think it really was just wanting a different basketball fit, on some level. You wouldn’t grow tired of playing with an over emotional losing moron, like Russell Westbrook?

[ArbitraryWater]

He joined a team that choked a 3-1 series lead and their UMVP was outplayed by Lebron's running mate Kyrie who continuously outplays him h2h.

You're more upset at KD stopping Lebron's superteam cavs from steamrolling Curry and Klay (who was a piss poor Finals 2nd option) than you are at what KD did.

He was still a 2 time FMVP that had to drop 43 points on the road in the Finals that Curry scored 12 points in.

Let the hate go. KD is a legend and will always be remembered as one.

Yada yada yada, he joined a team that won a championship without him and the next year was 2 minutes from doing the same again.

And its not "hate" to recognize that.

You can accept these facts or not, but thats absolutely unprecedented throughout history for a top 15 a time talent/caliber payer to do.

Conversely, youre just the one thats happy that KD stopped LeBron from winning more titles, which is why you cape for him.

[DMAVS41]

He joined a team that choked a 3-1 series lead and their UMVP was outplayed by Lebron's running mate Kyrie who continuously outplays him h2h.

You're more upset at KD stopping Lebron's superteam cavs from steamrolling Curry and Klay (who was a piss poor Finals 2nd option) than you are at what KD did.

He was still a 2 time FMVP that had to drop 43 points on the road in the Finals that Curry scored 12 points in.

Let the hate go. KD is a legend and will always be remembered as one.


And Durant choked away a 3-1 series lead against the guy are claiming needed him...

Also, who is saying KD isn't a legend and won't be remembered as one?

I swear you guys hear someone say KD maybe isn't one of the 10 to 15 best players ever and you think it is some crazy level hating...meanwhile, in this very thread, the anti Dirk people are saying he got bailed out to win and was simply lucky in his career.

Nobody is claiming Durant is anything other than one of the best players ever.

[DMAVS41]

I do find it hilariously peculiar LeBron fan boys crucify, hypocritically, Kevin Durant for his championships with the Warriors.

While conveniently ignoring LeBron, stacking the deck talent wise, or forcing trades for superstar players on other organizations that happen to share the same sports agency.

It’s the same thing. Only difference is one proved to be a championship team even before they got him. The other just ends up being an overwhelming favorite due to obvious disproportionate talent.

But it’s still cowardly deck stacking to win championships as easily as possible, from both of them. They’re both competitive cowards.

At least with the Durant thing, I think it really was just wanting a different basketball fit, on some level. You wouldn’t grow tired of playing with an over emotional losing moron, like Russell Westbrook?

But Lebron does deserve criticism. It was an incredibly weak move that made his path to titles considerably easier. It just so happened that Wade/Bosh declined after 12 and 13 was a super impressive clear cut best player title...and then since Lebron has gone to two franchises and won.

Durant went to the Warriors, won easily, wasn't always the clear cut best...and the team literally made the finals without him playing. He then leaves and they won yet another title without him while Durant hasn't even made it out of the 2nd round in 5 years.

Like I said earlier...I truly hope Durant gets a title with the Suns...because you guys downplay how good the Warriors were without him...and make up excuse after excuse for why the guy that is clearly better than players like Dirk...couldn't have better results when he was the best player on his own teams.

It is pretty rich. I remember everyone arguing that the Warriors "needed" Durant because Curry and company weren't that good anymore. I'm sure you were one of them...perhaps they didn't look as good anymore because they were playing with a non team oriented gunner/scorer that doesn't always see what the team needs. But even ignoring that...Durant gets hurt in 19...and the Warriors proceed to win at a 65 win pace without him...easily make the finals....then a couple years later win another title without him....all with Durant doing nothing.

For rational people, they'd admit they were wrong and that Durant benefited the more from the Warriors and the other way around, but not on here at at least...the same people still act like it is ****ing crazy to point out the obvious.

At least with another title and finals mvp on the Suns at his age it will make the over-rating of his career be easier to deal with.

Go Suns!

[tpols]

I do find it hilariously peculiar LeBron fan boys crucify, hypocritically, Kevin Durant for his championships with the Warriors.

While conveniently ignoring LeBron, stacking the deck talent wise, or forcing trades for superstar players on other organizations that happen to share the same sports agency.

It’s the same thing. Only difference is one proved to be a championship team even before they got him. The other just ends up being an overwhelming favorite due to obvious disproportionate talent.

But it’s still cowardly deck stacking to win championships as easily as possible, from both of them. They’re both competitive cowards.

At least with the Durant thing, I think it really was just wanting a different basketball fit, on some level. You wouldn’t grow tired of playing with an over emotional losing moron, like Russell Westbrook?

Bingo.

And that's why I feel like Dirk is worth more than both of them.

They're both literally just WWE characters. The Rock and Stone Cold. Just playing to a narrative. But obviously nowhere near as bad ass. :lol

https://media.tenor.com/jg1yipA4-jIAAAAM/stone-cold-steve-austin-beer-bash.gif

[DMAVS41]

Bingo.

And that's why I feel like Dirk is worth more than both of them.

They're both literally just WWE characters. The Rock and Stone Cold. Just playing to a narrative. But obviously nowhere near as bad ass. :lol

https://media.tenor.com/jg1yipA4-jIAAAAM/stone-cold-steve-austin-beer-bash.gif

I actually don't really have much of a problem with this take as long as you apply it to all players in terms of the results....

[tpols]

You wouldn’t grow tired of playing with an over emotional losing moron, like Russell Westbrook?


This is an important point with regards to Durant. It's almost impossible to win with a guy who throws away games late like Westbrook. He's done it his whole career. Put up stats and some pretty good impact.... throw the whole ****ing thing in the garbage in crunchtime. That's the way its always been.

We know for damn sure lebron wouldn't win with Westbrook as his running mate. I don't think even Dirk would. He was better off with Jason terry, who at least was clutch as all hell.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I honestly don't know what you mean. Why would he get criticized for winning titles?

Curry isn't shaded for winning those rings with Durant, who, ironically, does get criticized. Look at ArbitraryWater. Not gonna fault him for having his opinion, he's entitled to it. But dude just said those titles do nothing for KD :oldlol:

What Steph did before or after shouldn't matter, because at that moment, he and KD both stacked the deck.

[AlternativeAcc.]

It actually isn't just that...although I do think we can zoom out and just simply say that players have to produce certain results given their circumstances. Durant has spent virtually his entire career and certainly his prime/peak always being flanked by at least one in prime first ball hall of famer. A top 10 player of all time with that kind of help, in my opinion, has better results. In order to put him top 10...he needed to beat the Mavs in 11 or the Heat in 12 or the Spurs in 14 or the Warriors in 16 or the Bucks in 21...he's also struggled with his health. That definitely hurts him in rankings...being able to play actually matters. Sorry...

But if you want to talk strictly basketball and all that entails. I think Durant too easily gets pushed off his spots. I think he doesn't quite trust his teammates as often as he should. He's more of a gunner than a team oriented offensive engine. I also think he's over-rated as a passer, but that wasn't Dirk's strength either.

He's clearly one of the best scorer/shooters ever...has improved defensively...and is no doubt one of the best players ever. I just don't think he's been as good as you claim overall and think he's been inflated because of his time on the Warriors where life could not have been easier for him. Huge margin of error nearly every night and certainly every series.

Durant is also mentally weak. I question whether he has the mental strength to fight through with a team all year and carry the burden of all that pressure as being the clear cut "man" for a franchise. He seemed to not want that in OKC...and ever since he's only joined up in situations where there is another guy to take a lot of that pressure. That might not matter to you, but it does to me and I think his mental weakness has definitely impacted his team on the court at times in his career.


When it comes to Dirk. I think his patented pick and pop and pick/nail switch offensive game was more valuable both individually and for his team. I don't think Durant could consistently get as much out of his teammates as Dirk did. People like you are always referencing the win totals of Dirk's teams to illustrate their strength without actually talking about the players. Dirk had some good...and even a couple great teams imo, but he squeezed a lot out of those casts to get them where they went.

Dirk was also an excellent defensive rebounder and better defender than he gets credit for. He was notorious for playing through pain and hardly missed any games for most of his peak/prime. Really didn't miss any real time until the 2013 season iirc. Being healthy and on the court matters.

I think you should read this:

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/

I also invite you to read a take from someone that has no skin in the game:

https://thinkingbasketball.net/2018/03/05/backpicks-goat-26-kevin-durant/

I agree with some of that and actually think he's too hard on Durant in some areas. I'd definitely have Durant higher than 26 when it was written and 22 as well. But this notion that Durant is some near perfect basketball player just isn't true. He's been blessed with insanely good circumstances and the few times we've seen him without those...he's done nothing noteworthy.

All-time great...just not a top 10 level player like most of you seem to think. And to be clearly better than that 15 to 20 or so range of guys...he has to actually produce and do shit those other guys didn't do...especially considering his blessed circumstances.

I don't care to really debate Curry vs Durant as it isn't worth my time. The evidence has shown Curry is clearly the more valuable player in terms of winning and leading a franchise.

Wow, you posted a lot. I skimmed it. U brought up some perceived flaws of KD and ignored Dirks. You talk about Dirks teams and overrated KDs. You say silly stuff about Curry.

You're too biased and stuck in your ways to have a meaningful convo with. Agree to disagree.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't even like defending KD. :lol Again, I think Steph was the best player and had the most impact on those teams.

But KD should get more credit. Even Draymond agrees

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nba/draymond-credits-durant-for-second-title


"I don't think the outside world gave Kevin enough credit," Green emphasized. "I think if you came within our organization, Kevin was given all the credit. But the reality is, I don't think this team wins another championship if Kevin doesn't come."

You could replace KD with a few other stars, I think. But do agree with Dray that if GSW just came into that season...with the same team...they'd lose.

[DMAVS41]

Wow, you posted a lot. I skimmed it. U brought up some perceived flaws of KD and ignored Dirks. You talk about Dirks teams and overrated KDs. You say silly stuff about Curry.

You're too biased and stuck in your ways to have a meaningful convo with. Agree to disagree.

Yes, "perceived flaws"...I forgot he's the perfect basketball player.

I'll take your response as an admission you don't want to actually engage on any level.

:cheers:

[DMAVS41]

I don't even like defending KD. :lol Again, I think Steph was the best player and had the most impact on those teams.

But KD should get more credit. Even Draymond agrees

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nba/draymond-credits-durant-for-second-title



You could replace KD with a few other stars, I think. But do agree with Dray that if GSW just came into that season...with the same team...they'd lose.

Depends on who they get instead.

I mean, they did win at a 65 plus win pace after Kevin came and he missed games. Also made the finals easily in 19 without him...and then just got done winning a title without him.

At this point, it's just kind of silly to not acknowledge reality.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Depends on who they get instead.

I mean, they did win at a 65 plus win pace after Kevin came and he missed games. Also made the finals easily in 19 without him...and then just got done winning a title without him.

At this point, it's just kind of silly to not acknowledge reality.

Well, the reality is it took another 4 years to win a title without Durant.

You can't compare last years team to that one anyway. Different casts and comp.

[highwhey]

KD...not even a comparison.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

We obviously have different opinions, but in the end, both agree Chef>KD.

And I'm cool with that

Good friendly debate, DMAV. I'm heading out :cheers:

[highwhey]

We obviously have different opinions, but in the end, both agree Chef>KD.

And I'm cool with that

Good friendly debate, DMAV. I'm heading out :cheers:

do you mean chief? as in chief keef? in that case, i would agree. you can't possibly be that stupid to think curry is better than kd.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Yes, "perceived flaws"...I forgot he's the perfect basketball player.

I'll take your response as an admission you don't want to actually engage on any level.

:cheers:

I've engaged. You have circular arguments I've already destroyed. Now you're onto anecdotal "I feel like this aspect is more important" despite every measure backing up Durant.

I've already covered the "he needs to lead a team nonsense" now you're brining up Dirks defensive rebounding like it's some huge needle mover.

You haven't made any good points. It's boring and a waste of my time. :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

I've engaged. You have circular arguments I've already destroyed. Now you're onto anecdotal "I feel like this aspect is more important" despite every measure backing up Durant.

I've already covered the "he needs to lead a team nonsense" now you're brining up Dirks defensive rebounding like it's some huge needle mover.

You haven't made any good points. It's boring and a waste of my time. :cheers:

Again, clear admission you have nothing to say or refute.

:oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

do you mean chief? as in chief keef? in that case, i would agree. you can't possibly be that stupid to think curry is better than kd.

Good one, helmet head. You dont know ball and just ramble about dumb shit.

I dont even take you serious lol

[AlternativeAcc.]

Dirk until KD proves he can lead a team. I’ll even say he’s the bus driver on this Suns team so if they win this year he gets max credit… :cheers:


Again, clear admission you have nothing to say or refute.

:oldlol:

Look at your first post...

You went from saying he needs to lead a team to talk about Dirks defensive rebounding.

I've refuted your main argument, and forced you to delve into literal anecdotal nonsense.

Keep patting uourself on the back tho champ. It's a great look. :lol

[DMAVS41]

Well, the reality is it took another 4 years to win a title without Durant.

You can't compare last years team to that one anyway. Different casts and comp.

And? Is that supposed to be a knock? They won in 18...then made the finals in 19...without Durant...Klay gets hurt...out for 2 years...they win again. I mean, again, even your framing of this is silly.

That core made the finals in 2019 without KD...the next time they had the core healthy...they won a title.

Also, even if one were to grant that they wouldn't have won without Durant...which is certainly possible...I don't know why that would make a difference given how good we know them to be. It would be like if the current Suns added a healthy Kawhi...would it really matter that they might not have won without Leonard? It would be so absurd of a team it doesn't matter...

[DMAVS41]

Look at your first post...

You went from saying he needs to lead a team to talk about Dirks defensive rebounding.

I've refuted your main argument, and forced you to delve into literal anecdotal nonsense.

Keep patting uourself on the back tho champ. It's a great look. :lol

You asked me to ignore the team leading stuff. I absolutely stand by it...Durant needs to win a title as the clear cut best player of a team to jump to a higher tier. Even though I like to be a contrarian, I bet most people deep down agree.

I also literally gave you unbiased 3rd party writeups on both players that make solely basketball arguments that put them right next to each other. Also gave you an article about the nail play and just how damaging that was to defenses...which, of course, you asked for...then circle back attacking the franchise leader argument when given the very things you say you want.

Again, clear admission you've got nothing.

Keep responding though...I thought you were bored of this...

[DMAVS41]

We obviously have different opinions, but in the end, both agree Chef>KD.

And I'm cool with that

Good friendly debate, DMAV. I'm heading out :cheers:

:cheers:

[AlternativeAcc.]

Dirk until KD proves he can lead a team. I’ll even say he’s the bus driver on this Suns team so if they win this year he gets max credit… :cheers:


You asked me to ignore the team leading stuff.

Again, clear admission you've got nothing.

Keep responding though...I thought you were bored of this...

You said it was KD until he leads a team.

Now you have different reasons after that gets refuted? Which are literally just your biased opinions that mean nothing. :lol

And yeah you posted a novel expecting me to dive deep on all your personal biased opinions. Yeah bro I'm gonna read random articles and give your biased analysis the time of day :oldlol:

You're not important brother.

When I said bball analysis I didn't mean I wanted to spend hours talking about defensive rebounding and KD being skinny. I assume we've both watched enough of both players not to go into such odd detail. You're biased so u slant the pros and cons in a way I found way too boring to address.

[DMAVS41]

Your entire argument for Dirk is... "I want to see Durant lead a team"... he's done it every year of his career. At 23 he led a finals team that ran into a buzz saw and from 2016-2018 he led the greatest team ever and dominated the finals like few ever have.

You rely on silly narratives to form your opinions instead of just judging basketball ability. You can't erase Durant leading the best team ever just because you don't like how he got there.




You posted this.

I responded with something different than what you call "silly narratives" because you made a comment about basketball ability. I gave you a few quick thoughts and took the time to link to other unbiased perspectives in terms of KD vs Dirk.

Your response?

Loser. Look at you changing your argument.

I honestly worry about some of you. I hope you don't have important roles to play in society...because if so...we are even more ****ed than I thought.

[AlternativeAcc.]

You posted this.

I responded with something different than what you call "silly narratives" because you made a comment about basketball ability. I gave you a few quick thoughts and took the time to link to other unbiased perspectives in terms of KD vs Dirk.

Your response?

Loser. Look at you changing your argument.

I honestly worry about some of you. I hope you don't have important roles to play in society...because if so...we are even more ****ed than I thought.

Bball analysis meaning how did they perform in certain series, as it relates to a broader "all-time" ranking.

You took that as a way to be a biased dummy and link to other people who are in the minority. Are u autistic? :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Bball analysis meaning how did they perform in certain series, as it relates to a broader "all-time" ranking.

You took that as a way to be a biased dummy and link to other people who are in the minority. Are u autistic? :oldlol:

Are you mentally challenged? You think basketball analysis solely relates to performance in certain series?

The KD stans remind me of the Chris Paul stans.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Are you mentally challenged? You think basketball analysis solely relates to performance in certain series?

The KD stans remind me of the Chris Paul stans.

Hur hur just ask me the same question! Good one.

So you don't think Dirk is better because Durant hasn't led a team? Its because of the details of the game that you chose to hyper focus on like an autist?

Which one is it? I'm confused.


Basetball wise KD has better gravity, better playmaker, better ISO scoring, more versatile scoring, and better defender. He's a tier above Dirk, I dont give a fukk about your biased slant u dork lmao.

[DMAVS41]

Hur hur just ask me the same question! Good one.

So you don't think Dirk is better because Durant hasn't led a team? Its because of the details of the game that you chose to hyper focus on like an autist?

Which one is it? I'm confused.

I've literally said the same thing about Durant for years now.

I think he's one of the best ever, but in my opinion, he's over-rated as a player for reasons I've given many times...however, I'm open to being wrong and proven wrong. It isn't like I'm saying he's not good enough to be the clear cut best player and win...I'd just like to see him do it because I do question his toughness and ability to come through when his team needs him the most and he has to carry that burden.

So far, the evidence for my take is strong. Pre Warriors he won nothing despite having enough multiple times. Post Warriors he hasn't made it out of the 2nd round. Again, I'm not even arguing he won't do it...I just want to see it.

It's everything...I think he's been weak mentally, I think his on court game is slightly over-rated by most, and I think his circumstances have made life far easier on him than most give credence to.

You can disagree...cool, but stop acting mentally challenged...or maybe you are...in that case, I apologize.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I've literally said the same thing about Durant for years now.

I think he's one of the best ever, but in my opinion, he's over-rated as a player for reasons I've given many times...however, I'm open to being wrong and proven wrong. It isn't like I'm saying he's not good enough to be the clear cut best player and win...I'd just like to see him do it because I do question his toughness and ability to come through when his team needs him the most and he has to carry that burden.

It's everything...I think he's been weak mentally, I think his on court game is slightly over-rated by most, and I think his circumstances have made life far easier on him than most give credence to.

You can disagree...cool, but stop acting mentally challenged...or maybe you are...in that case, I apologize.
Exactly why I said it was boring.

You're biased in a weird way. Going into detail about them as players doesn't work in Dirks favor. Talking about performances doesn't. Stats don't. Achievements. There's nothing in Dirks favor. These aren't just oddball ****ing opinions.

And like I've said, don't care about your narrative based thinking, we've already talked about that. He's been a championship caliber leader since his young 20s and has dominant finals runs under his belt. None of these are opinions like the shit you're talking about.

Have a good one tho man!

[imdaman99]

Right now it's still Dirk but KD ain't done. He's still elite and might win another ring. Dirk's 1 would equal KD's 3 and we can talk after that.

[DMAVS41]

Exactly why I said it was boring.

You're biased in a weird way. Going into detail about them as players doesn't work in Dirks favor. Talking about performances doesn't. Stats don't. Achievements. There's nothing in Dirks favor. These aren't just oddball ****ing opinions.

And like I've said, don't care about your narrative based thinking, we've already talked about that. He's been a championship caliber leader since his young 20s and has dominant finals runs under his belt. None of these are opinions like the shit you're talking about.

Have a good one tho man!

When did I ever say KD wasn't a championship caliber leader? It's about actually doing it. You don't get points for potential or what type of player you are...you have to actually produce shit.

Let me try to make this simple for you.

You are making a claim that KD is clearly a better player than Dirk.

I disagree.

So I look at their careers and say...hmmm...if KD was clearly better and a more valuable player to a franchise...wouldn't I expect him to produce a different level of team results given the fact that KD had at worst similar level help to Dirk in his non Warriors years? I actually think KD had better help, but I won't even go there.

So, yes, I'd expect him to have better results. But all he's done is make the finals once and lose. I don't think he has a run nearly as impressive as Dirk in 11...and I don't think his trip to the finals was as impressive in 12 as Dirk's was in 06. However, I do think Durant was better in the finals than Dirk was.

I just don't see the results that warrant what you are claiming...and then you want to throw in achievements...but the achievements are only that way because Durant joined the Warriors. You guys really need to stop ignoring that.

It would be like if Dirk joined up with KG and Paul Pierce in the mid 00's...and just shot 20 plus times a game. I don't know how that makes Dirk a better player, but I guess that somehow made Durant better in your mind.

And, yes, you are actually giving opinions you dunce.

[bizil]

Come on now! Peak-prime wise or GOAT wise, KD easily has the edge. KD is a much more complete player across the board. And GOAT wise, his resume has the clear advantage as well. NO DISS to Dirk though. He's the GOLD STANDARD stretch PF of all time! On the Mt. Rushmore of PF's in general. And one of the few players who TRULY revolutionized his position. He and KG are the MAIN PLAYERS who made 7 footers wanted play the PF or SF. KG due to being for all intents and purposes a freak athletic positionless two way 7 footer. And Dirk due to his awesome scoring skillset. KD AMPED UP what Dirk did in terms of athletic ability and handles. And took it to the SF spot. But before Dirk, you DIDN'T see 7 footers with that type of scoring skillset. One that was the CLOSEST we had see to a 7'0 version of Larry Bird.

[BarberSchool]

Doubt that.

Funny thing is Dirk ran through KD in that 2011 run as well. I remember Durant choking and getting locked up by Shawn Marion. He wasn't winning shit with that Dallas cast.
IIRC game 1 2011 WCF, Durant had 40, but Nowitzki had 48 on siiiick unstoppable efficiency and it set the tone for the series.

[BigShotBob]

IIRC game 1 2011 WCF, Durant had 40, but Nowitzki had 48 on siiiick unstoppable efficiency and it set the tone for the series.

KD was 22/23 in 2011 and Dirk was 33....

[BigShotBob]

Yada yada yada, he joined a team that won a championship without him and the next year was 2 minutes from doing the same again.

And its not "hate" to recognize that.

You can accept these facts or not, but thats absolutely unprecedented throughout history for a top 15 a time talent/caliber payer to do.

Conversely, youre just the one thats happy that KD stopped LeBron from winning more titles, which is why you cape for him.

*That beat Lebron without Kyrie and Love

It's hate with how you interpret it which you are doing because not once did you mention that the Warriors beat an injured Cavs team which is a fact. You can accept that or not. In no world would the 2016 Thunder lose to an injured/hobbled 2015 Cavs team in the Finals. Literally 0 chance they lose.

Yet KD still was the most impactful player in those Finals enroute to a 2-time Finals MVP.

I'm not "happy" I'm just a fan of KD's game. His ability as a player doesn't change because the media wants to tear him down for wanting to play with good teams and coaches


And Durant choked away a 3-1 series lead against the guy are claiming needed him...

Also, who is saying KD isn't a legend and won't be remembered as one?

I swear you guys hear someone say KD maybe isn't one of the 10 to 15 best players ever and you think it is some crazy level hating...meanwhile, in this very thread, the anti Dirk people are saying he got bailed out to win and was simply lucky in his career.

Nobody is claiming Durant is anything other than one of the best players ever.

They went to him after they lost lmao :oldlol:

KD is top 15-20 maybe 25 but I'd be hard pressed to find 24 players flat out better than him. But saying that Dirk has a possibility of being better is just flat out wrong.

[BarberSchool]

KD was 22/23 in 2011 and Dirk was 33....So you don’t think it’s right to compare scoring totals in a WCF game between two players who have an age gap between them ?

See:

KD has better, more diverse offensive talent, better speed and leaping, better quickness. KD has better transition scoring, and Better overall scoring ability in more situations/playstyles. KD has significantly better perimeter defensive ability. Kd has good height and wingspan, but lacks the body and leg strength to play sturdy post defense and rebound against heavier players, KD’s very narrow chest, tiny waist, tiny hips, and very skinny legs are an advantage in transition speed, and leaping ability, but disadvantages in trying to play on ball post defense, or rebound with the bigs. KD can be moved at will very very easily by any 4, 5, or strong SF, despite his impressive 6’10.5-6’11” height. Good defense in passing lanes due to speed and wingspan, and decent help defense blocking shots again due to foot speed to cover ground in rotation and wingspan and leaping to extend to block or change shots.

Dirk has better post game, better post defense due to bigger/taller/wider frame, and heavier legs/hips/body. Bigger heavier skeleton gives Dirk much better rebounding, especially much better on defensive rebounding. A Dirk box out compared to a KD box out aren’t even close. Dirk had better passing out of double teams, and was slightly more clutch.

Their efficiency from 2/3/FT is roughly equivalent, both highly ranked alltime efficient scorers. KD slightly higher volume.

Dirk had better dependability and durability, despite his terrible knees and ankles, which were already bad during his prime, and robbed him of the transition offensive ability he had early in his career. But despite those bad knees and ankles, he still rarely missed time, and would play & perform thru pain much more than KD.

They both have a ring, but Dirk’s was done with much less talent, and KD’s ring is almost “not a real ring”

But I would still rank KD higher on the alltime list, due to better athleticism and better one on one perimeter scoring. Dirk would have been slightly more valuable in the previous post-dominant era’s in the 80’s or 90’s, KD is more valuable in the modern perimeter game.

[John8204]

Kevin Durant is one of the ten most talented players of all-time.

However the fact remains he joined two better all-time players than him (CPIII and Curry) because he couldn't get it done with MVP's and All-NBA guys. Dirk is a 30K scorer who stayed with one franchise and won a ring after losing his best teammate in Steve Nash. He made the playoffs 15 out of 16 seasons and the finals twice.

Dirk has 16 seasons where he started 70+ games...Durant has 8. Durant left a championship team because of his feelings meaning rings were on the table and he decided his ego was more important. In a bubble one on one Durant is one of the greats but his mental fragility has destroyed his legacy. The closest player I would compare him to is Rick Barry another one time MVP who had mental issues that ruined his shot at a true legacy.

[BarberSchool]

Kevin Durant is one of the ten most talented players of all-time.

However the fact remains he joined two better all-time players than him (CPIII and Curry) because he couldn't get it done with MVP's and All-NBA guys. Dirk is a 30K scorer who stayed with one franchise and won a ring after losing his best teammate in Steve Nash. He made the playoffs 15 out of 16 seasons and the finals twice.

Dirk has 16 seasons where he started 70+ games...Durant has 8. Durant left a championship team because of his feelings meaning rings were on the table and he decided his ego was more important. In a bubble one on one Durant is one of the greats but his mental fragility has destroyed his legacy. The closest player I would compare him to is Rick Barry another one time MVP who had mental issues that ruined his shot at a true legacy.

1. What do you think makes you rank CP3 so highly ?

2. I don’t know hardly anything about Rick Barry, but am interested to learn about any mental illness he supposedly had. My only knowledge of Rick Barry involve 70’s grainy footage of him scoring hella points, the funny FT form, and him absolutely lambasting sports media in a way that made me want to have a lot of respect for him.

[John8204]

1. What do you think makes you rank CP3 so highly ?

2. I don’t know hardly anything about Rick Barry, but am interested to learn about any mental illness he supposedly had. My only knowledge of Rick Barry involve 70’s grainy footage of him scoring hella points, the funny FT form, and him absolutely lambasting sports media in a way that made me want to have a lot of respect for him.

1. Chris Paul has turned around more teams than any player in NBA history. He went to really four of the worst franchises in the NBA (Pelicans, Clippers, Thunder, and Suns) and elevated them into playoff and title contenders. The league sabotaged his move to the Lakers and still year after year he elevated his teammates. The best players he ever played with once they lost Chris Paul their performances dropped off a cliff (Harden, Griffin, Schroder) while elevating young players to All-Stars (SGA, Booker, Ayton).

2. Rick Barry came into the league as one of the top players...he was ROTY in his first season he made 25 PPG second season 30 PPG made it to the finals with The Warriors...then left for ABA. Only after sitting for a year because of the NBA contract rules. Guy comes back gets into a fight sees his teammates aren't backing him up and he throws the WCF game seven refusing the shoot. He also made racist comments towards Bill Russell and looked down on his teammates. I don't think he's racist per-say I think he's just a recalcitrant person.

[nayte]

I voted KD. Like em both but according to inside hoops any old player was jamming against plumber etc so gotta be the dude who went against twitch streamers

[fsvr54]

KD lol

[SATAN]

These arguments are so ridiculous and short sighted despite the lengths some go to in order to trash the other guy.

[SouBeachTalents]

KD's the more talented player and I'd probably have him ranked slightly higher than Dirk, though they're both in the same tier for me all time. If I'm starting a franchise though, I honestly don't see how you don't go with Dirk. KD has legitimately the worst intangibles/leadership skills of any top 20 player.

[RRR3]

KD's the more talented player and I'd probably have him ranked slightly higher than Dirk, though they're both in the same tier for me all time. If I'm starting a franchise though, I honestly don't see how you don't go with Dirk. KD has legitimately the worst intangibles/leadership skills of any top 20 player.
Karl Malone is a pedophile how is KD worse than that

[AlternativeAcc.]

KD's the more talented player and I'd probably have him ranked slightly higher than Dirk, though they're both in the same tier for me all time. If I'm starting a franchise though, I honestly don't see how you don't go with Dirk. KD has legitimately the worst intangibles/leadership skills of any top 20 player.

Disagree here.

His leadership has been fantastic his entire career. He got drafted to a team that relocated to a small marker after his 1st season. They were atrocious. Within 5 years they were competing for championships. He gets nothing but respect from teammates his whole career. Dray blew up one time, but overall nothing but respect and admiration. He's lifted every team he's been on. Saying he lacks intangibles is just false.

[Im Still Ballin]

KD should be better, but I'm not sure he is. They played their best basketball in separate eras; there was only a slight overlap of primes. There's a disconnect between statistics and impact; the numbers can only tell us so much - especially the box score. It's possible to put up huge scoring numbers on strong efficiency and be less impactful than others. Wilt and Dantley are great examples.

I'd caution people to not get too carried away by per-game averages. Especially numbers from recent years. If there are any numbers that should be looked at, it's the multi-year RAPM studies. Dirk looks great on those, whereas KD doesn't.

[Norcaliblunt]

Doubt that.

Funny thing is Dirk ran through KD in that 2011 run as well. I remember Durant choking and getting locked up by Shawn Marion. He wasn't winning shit with that Dallas cast.


Basically you are arguing my point. Dirk had a seasoned all star vet who accepted his role as a defensive specialist and locked up the opposing teams best player. His name was Shawn Marion. If Marion decides to play in Phoenix for the money he played for in Dallas the Suns win that title. Cuban for once signed the right guys to surround Dirk. And Lebron choked.

[DMAVS41]

Disagree here.

His leadership has been fantastic his entire career. He got drafted to a team that relocated to a small marker after his 1st season. They were atrocious. Within 5 years they were competing for championships. He gets nothing but respect from teammates his whole career. Dray blew up one time, but overall nothing but respect and admiration. He's lifted every team he's been on. Saying he lacks intangibles is just false.

Tell us more about how great of a leader he is. Came out last night in the biggest game of the year and was awful from the tip.

Kevin Durant as the actual leader of teams has made one NBA finals. Has not won anything...despite playing with in prime all-nba level teammates a majority of his career. While we all know he's an all-time great...he simply has not accomplished enough to be placed with some of the guys he's mentioned as he hasn't done anything other than joining up with one of the best teams and actual best players of all-time in Steph.

We all know it. If Barkley joined up with Jordan in the early 90's and won a couple titles...it would not make him a better basketball player. Again, everyone knows this...but in the case of Durant...joining the Warriors made people think he's better than he actually is.

Give me Dirk. He at least proved what he could do as a franchise leader...which is clearly more than Durant has accomplished.

[Phoenix]

Give me Dirk. He at least proved what he could do as a franchise leader...which is clearly more than Durant has accomplished.
:cheers:
Dirk basically keeping the Mavs in the title picture through the entire 00's despite coaching changes and pretty much two different cores/rosters between the first and second half of the decade, says everything you need to know about him being a franchise anchor.