Let's stop pretending this carried run is part of the GOAT debate for lebron

[3ba11]

22 ppg? Different all-star teammates leading every other game?

Lebron is "pippen" to AD, D-Lo, Reaves or Rui?

gtfo

don't pretend this is "goat" caliber.. it's nowhere near and below the kobe standard, let alone mj

cut the crap.

All 6 of MJ's chips were won without great scoring help and MJ averaging 10-30 ppg more than all teammates, aka carrying scoring load (defeating max defensive attention)

[ArbitraryWater]

as you said, individual scoring is the most important part


and Lebron just led the series in scoring, LeBron became the 2nd oldest player ever to lead a playoff series in scoring :bowdown:

[3ba11]

as you said, individual scoring is the most important part


and Lebron just led the series in scoring, LeBron became the 2nd oldest player ever to lead a playoff series in scoring :bowdown:


22 ppg isn't anywhere near goat-caliber.. Having teammates match your scoring isn't anywhere near GOAT-caliber, so none of his rings compare to the goat standard.

His main accomplishment (8 Finals in the East) was completely manufactured by taking the top 3 first options in the conference and putting them on 1 team.. You guys are just fos and give credence to a fake debate.. it's pathetic

When he scores a lot, the ball doesn't move, so he needs more help - his lack of expert jumpshooting skill and reliance on ball-dominance (imposition of spot-up roles) is a weaker skillset that clearly yields weaker teammate development, fits, strategic capacity and ultimately team ceiling/Finals record

[3ba11]

It's funny because some guy on Youtube the other day asked me "why doesn't Embiid and Giannis rule the East like Lebron did??"

I had to explain basic history about how Lebron was a massive playoff loser just like Giannis and Embiid before "the decision" to put the top 3 first options in the conference on 1 team.. From 2004-2011, Lebron was either lottery, upset or locked up, which includes getting locked up by the 07' Spurs or 08' Celtics and historic meltdowns/upsets from 2009-2011.

Again, the goat debate is all pretend.. it's a fake debate for ratings that an entire league and fanbase fell for.

[1987_Lakers]

1-9

[Sportal]

22 ppg isn't anywhere near goat-caliber.. Having teammates match your scoring isn't anywhere near GOAT-caliber, so none of his rings compare to the goat standard.

His main accomplishment (8 Finals in the East) was completely manufactured by taking the top 3 first options in the conference and putting them on 1 team.. You guys are just fos and give credence to a fake debate.. it's pathetic

When he scores a lot, the ball doesn't move, so he needs more help - his lack of expert jumpshooting skill and reliance on ball-dominance (imposition of spot-up roles) is a weaker skillset that clearly yields weaker teammate development, fits, strategic capacity and ultimately team ceiling/Finals record

Funny, I don't recall Bosh being a top option on a good playoff team... I don't recall that either of Miami and Wade, were those teams constantly making it to conference finals like you seem to suggest?

[ELITEpower23]

HeCantKeepGettingAwayWithThis.gif

[8Ball]

22 ppg? Different all-star teammates leading every other game?

Lebron is "pippen" to AD, D-Lo, Reaves or Rui?

gtfo

don't pretend this is "goat" caliber.. it's nowhere near and below the kobe standard, let alone mj

cut the crap.

All 6 of MJ's chips were won without great scoring help and MJ averaging 10-30 ppg more than all teammates, aka carrying scoring load (defeating max defensive attention)

Jordan was a pile of dog poop at 38 years old.

LeBron just beat a 51 win team in 1st round as team's leading scorer.

[Keno]

Salt, keep it coming

1-9

[warriorfan]

AD has been great. Leading playoffs in rebounds and blocks.

[Johnny32]

as you said, individual scoring is the most important part


and Lebron just led the series in scoring, LeBron became the 2nd oldest player ever to lead a playoff series in scoring :bowdown:

for the series...

1st in points
2nd in rebounds
2nd in assists

lil mikey could never.

[k0kakw0rld]

22 ppg isn't anywhere near goat-caliber.. Having teammates match your scoring isn't anywhere near GOAT-caliber, so none of his rings compare to the goat standard.

His main accomplishment (8 Finals in the East) was completely manufactured by taking the top 3 first options in the conference and putting them on 1 team.. You guys are just fos and give credence to a fake debate.. it's pathetic

When he scores a lot, the ball doesn't move, so he needs more help - his lack of expert jumpshooting skill and reliance on ball-dominance (imposition of spot-up roles) is a weaker skillset that clearly yields weaker teammate development, fits, strategic capacity and ultimately team ceiling/Finals record
Stfu man, Jesus Christ

[8Ball]

AD has been great. Leading playoffs in rebounds and blocks.

20 ppg so far only?

We didn't trade the house and kitchen sink for that.

Need him to be better.

[ShawkFactory]

You can HEAR this dude starting to sweat :lol

[8Ball]

You can HEAR this dude starting to sweat :lol

This was a 5-6am meltdown post on a saturday morning.


3ball had ZERO sleep last night.:roll:

[3ba11]

Funny, I don't recall Bosh being a top option on a good playoff team... I don't recall that either of Miami and Wade, were those teams constantly making it to conference finals like you seem to suggest?





The Cavs won 45 games in 2008, so even though they weren't good, Lebron was still the best 1st option in the conference.

So that's similar to Wade or Bosh carrying bad teams in the late 2000's - they were still top options like Lebron in 2005, 2006 or 2008 when his teams did poorly.

So Wade was easily the best 1st option behind Lebron, while Bosh was probably right after that.. It's like Giannis teaming up with Jimmy Butler and Siakam, assuming Buttler was already a FMVP champion like Wade was.

And Wade was the #2 producer in the NBA behind Lebron in 2010 - most people said Wade was equal or better than Kobe - the numbers say Wade was far better by doubling Kobe's BPM and getting a 28 PER to 21 for Kobe.

With the Celtics getting old and already the underdog in 2010, the East was about to be wide open for the next decade with Lebron, Paul George, Bosh, Derozan and Wade battling it out for supremacy, but Lebron just teamed up with everyone instead.. He diluted his opposition and consolidated power on 1 team, which is the definition of manufacturing a "streak".. He was getting destroyed before that because he was either lottery, locked up or upset from 2004-2011, which includes getting locked up by the 07' Spurs or 08' Celtics.

[Full Court]

Jordan was a pile of dog poop at 38 years old.


Yep, and he STILL had far more positive impact than LeDeadWeight does.

Truth hurts.

:lebroncry:

[SouBeachTalents]

I always knew OP’s insistence that scoring is the only thing that matters would come back to haunt him one day. Now he can’t even argue AD’s been better than LeBron because he’s outscored him in both the regular season and playoffs so far :lol

I see that 40 point beatdown had OP feeling shook as fck, up till 6 in the morning making this cope thread lol.

[8Ball]

I always knew OP’s insistence that scoring is the only thing that matters would come back to haunt him one day. Now he can’t even argue AD’s been better than LeBron because he’s outscored him in both the regular season and playoffs so far :lol

I see that 40 point beatdown had OP feeling shook as fck, up till 6 in the morning making this cope thread lol.

LeBron outscored AD and put up 22-11-5 on nearly 50% and only 18 shots a game.

Looks like a good Tim Duncan statline.

Aging gracefully instead of trying to chuck the ball like only jordan knows how to do.

[8Ball]

The Cavs won 45 games in 2008, so even though they weren't good, Lebron was still the best 1st option in the conference.

So that's similar to Wade or Bosh carrying bad teams in the late 2000's - they were still top options like Lebron in 2005, 2006 or 2008 when his teams did poorly.

So Wade was easily the best 1st option behind Lebron, while Bosh was probably right after that.. It's like Giannis teaming up with Jimmy Butler and Siakam, assuming Buttler was already a FMVP champion like Wade was.

And Wade was the #2 producer in the NBA behind Lebron in 2010 - most people said Wade was equal or better than Kobe - the numbers say Wade was far better by doubling Kobe's BPM and getting a 28 PER to 21 for Kobe.

With the Celtics getting old and already the underdog in 2010, the East was about to be wide open for the next decade with Lebron, Paul George, Bosh, Derozan and Wade battling it out for supremacy, but Lebron just teamed up with everyone instead.. He diluted his opposition and consolidated power on 1 team, which is the definition of manufacturing a "streak".. He was getting destroyed before that because he was either lottery, locked up or upset from 2004-2011, which includes getting locked up by the 07' Spurs or 08' Celtics.

LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jordan at 38.

And between 18-38 as well.

[90sgoat]

In my book, Lebron will never be above someone like Kobe Bryant, so it all depends on where you rank Kobe.

Lebron is not close to actual basketball savants like MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Russel.

You can even argue he isn't as good as Shaq, Duncan, Barkley, Dr. J, Curry.

I actually think so. He isn't as good as Duncan, never as dominant as Shaq. Not as aesthetic as Dr. J, not as revolutionary as Curry.

I will give him, that he has managed to have a very long productive career, even if he has made the league change the rules so he could get to the rim easier.

In the minds of the casual though, this ring will help him, the same way Kareem got carried by Magic. It will add to his mystique.

Lebron will never be considered GOAT, but it's bad enough he is considered top 10.

[ArbitraryWater]

This was a 5-6am meltdown post on a saturday morning.


3ball had ZERO sleep last night.:roll:

:oldlol:

[Nb1]

as you said, individual scoring is the most important part


and Lebron just led the series in scoring, LeBron became the 2nd oldest player ever to lead a playoff series in scoring :bowdown:

Damn, TS got slayed :roll:

Just ask for this thread to be closed to avoid further humiliation TS :oldlol:

[JohnMax]

Warriors will beat him in next round and they'll claim his foot never healed and they'll stack deck for him next season by giving him Lillard. Than whole league will work together to help him tie Curry in rings. Similar to how whole league worked together in 1996 to help Jordan surpass Hakeem. Remember Hakeem beat Malone, Barkley, Robinson, and Shaq for his 1995 ring. Overrated ass Jordan never beat all best players in one title run. The whole league feared if Hakeem 3peated, it'd be his league and he'd be best player from 1984 draft.

[Goldrush25]

In my book, Lebron will never be above someone like Kobe Bryant, so it all depends on where you rank Kobe.

Lebron is not close to actual basketball savants like MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Russel.

You can even argue he isn't as good as Shaq, Duncan, Barkley, Dr. J, Curry.

I actually think so. He isn't as good as Duncan, never as dominant as Shaq. Not as aesthetic as Dr. J, not as revolutionary as Curry.

I will give him, that he has managed to have a very long productive career, even if he has made the league change the rules so he could get to the rim easier.

In the minds of the casual though, this ring will help him, the same way Kareem got carried by Magic. It will add to his mystique.

Lebron will never be considered GOAT, but it's bad enough he is considered top 10.

Man you all are getting really nervous.

Lakers might lose but if fun seeing people like you squirm. It's because you have to at least entertain the possibility that he might win, hence all of these attempts to pre-emptively dismiss it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

For hoop heads this is the best time of the year. Meanwhile OP is miserable because of one player lol

Luckily...you'll always have ISH to churn out your garbage.

[Indian guy]

LeBron's teammates don't play well = his "suboptimal" style of play clearly the reason behind their struggles

LeBron's teammates play well = STACKED! CARRIED!

OP's scared little ass always got both sides covered.

[Foster5k]

:oldlol::roll:


3ball in complete shambles. LeBron killing these mfers.

[Foster5k]

In my book, Lebron will never be above someone like Kobe Bryant, so it all depends on where you rank Kobe.

Lebron is not close to actual basketball savants like MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Russel.

You can even argue he isn't as good as Shaq, Duncan, Barkley, Dr. J, Curry.

I actually think so. He isn't as good as Duncan, never as dominant as Shaq. Not as aesthetic as Dr. J, not as revolutionary as Curry.

I will give him, that he has managed to have a very long productive career, even if he has made the league change the rules so he could get to the rim easier.

In the minds of the casual though, this ring will help him, the same way Kareem got carried by Magic. It will add to his mystique.

Lebron will never be considered GOAT, but it's bad enough he is considered top 10.

4Ball sounding ass. :oldlol::roll::roll:

[AlternativeAcc.]

LeBron leading a title contender in his 20th season while being the primary scorer AND playmaker (+obvious emotional/lockeroom leader) = victory laps in the GOAT debate. He's running circles around Kareem and Russell at this point. His GOAT status is unbreakably solid and he'll never be surpassed. Nobody will get close.


There's even an argument that he's still the best player in the world at this point. His leadership qualities cant be ignored. His impact on irrelevant players and getting the most out of them is just too massive. He averaged 30ppg and 7apg this yea..year... so the stats are there. The leadership impact puts him over the top.


Are you OK OP? you've dedicated your life to hating on the greatest ever who is still the best in his 20th season. Are you suicidal?

[8Ball]

Yep, and he STILL had far more positive impact than LeDeadWeight does.

Truth hurts.

:lebroncry:

Jordan missed the playoffs at 38 while Bron led his team in scoring against a 51 win team and bounced them in 6.

[Full Court]

Jordan missed the playoffs at 38 while Bron led his team in scoring against a 51 win team and bounced them in 6.

Jordan was still the best player on his team at 38.


LeShrivel is the 4th best player on his team.

Truth hurts.

:lebroncry:

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan was still the best player on his team at 38.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B7U74Dg04k

[zeerghit]

Jordan was still the best player on his team at 38.


LeShrivel is the 4th best player on his team.

Truth hurts.

:lebroncry:

name them

[8Ball]

Jordan was still the best player on his team at 38.


LeShrivel is the 4th best player on his team.

Truth hurts.

:lebroncry:

Best player on his team at 22ppg 40% shooting! :roll:

[3ba11]

I always knew OP’s insistence that scoring is the only thing that matters would come back to haunt him one day. Now he can’t even argue AD’s been better than LeBron because he’s outscored him in both the regular season and playoffs so far :lol

I see that 40 point beatdown had OP feeling shook as fck, up till 6 in the morning making this cope thread lol.


It's common knowledge that AD and Lebron are approximately the same caliber and they average similar amounts or alternate the scoring lead, but this doesn't compare to Jordan's burden and that's the point - Jordan didn't have anyone to take over for him - he didn't have the biggest type of help that everyone in history needed, aka great scoring help.. Consider that Jordan's career scoring average in the 1st Round is the same as Jimmy Butler's recent series vs Bucks (37/6/5), while Lebron is a ring-chaser by comparison and carried by his stacked team of high-producing teammates.

Lebron simply needed more help such as 25 more top 5 draft picks (34 to 9) and 6 teams with multiple all-star teammates (0 for Jordan), or all-time-scoring sidekicks to lead the PPG for entire playoff runs and outplay league MVP's like Curry, Jokic, or Dirk.. Lebron always needed dominant sidekicks to "take over", while Jordan could carry the scoring load himself - Lebron cannot carry this load as evidenced by him losing to top teams whenever his teammates wet the bed..

Great scoring help is the biggest type of help that everyone else in history needed to win multiple chips, except the GOAT... Even Hakeem needed an elite 1st option to play sidekick for his 2nd chip... Ultimately, MJ didn't have equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he was forced to defeat maximum defensive attention, aka carry scoring load, aka scouting report (shaq said pip wasn't on it)

[8Ball]

It's common knowledge that AD and Lebron are approximately the same caliber and they average similar amounts or alternate the scoring lead, but this doesn't compare to Jordan's burden and that's the point - Jordan didn't have anyone to take over for him - he didn't have the biggest type of help that everyone in history needed, aka great scoring help.. Consider that Jordan's career scoring average in the 1st Round is the same as Jimmy Butler's recent series vs Bucks (37/6/5), while Lebron is a ring-chaser by comparison and carried by his stacked team of high-producing teammates.

Lebron simply needed more help such as 25 more top 5 draft picks (34 to 9) and 6 teams with multiple all-star teammates (0 for Jordan), or all-time-scoring sidekicks to lead the PPG for entire playoff runs and outplay league MVP's like Curry, Jokic, or Dirk.. Lebron always needed dominant sidekicks to "take over", while Jordan could carry the scoring load himself - Lebron cannot carry this load as evidenced by him losing to top teams whenever his teammates wet the bed..

Great scoring help is the biggest type of help that everyone else in history needed to win multiple chips, except the GOAT... Even Hakeem needed an elite 1st option to play sidekick for his 2nd chip... Ultimately, MJ didn't have equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he was forced to defeat maximum defensive attention, aka carry scoring load, aka scouting report (shaq said pip wasn't on it)

94 bulls won 55 games without him and went 7 games into the 2nd round with 1 bad ref call away from ECF.



Imagine Jordan at 38 being almost as good as AD. Not in a million years.

[ShawkFactory]

name them

He's gonna say AD, Reaves, and maybe DLo?

[tpols]

It doesn't matter for the GOAT debate but it could slide him past some guys outside MJ.

If LeBron wins a title this year while performing at a superstar level? He's still behind MJs 6 superstar rings.

But an All Star level ring will have him up near Kobe in the top 5 all time.

[3ba11]

94 bulls won 55 games without him and went 7 games into the 2nd round with 1 bad ref call away from ECF.



Imagine Jordan at 38 being almost as good as AD. Not in a million years.


Consider that Lebron lost in the 2nd Round in 2010, so he left the Cavs a 2nd Round loser

Then he was beaten by record amount in 2014 and this drubbing was a far worse performance than any of the Spurs' Western opponents, aka the Heat were equal to a 1st or 2nd Round Western team.

Then he left another record loser in 2018.

So Lebron left 2nd Round losers or record losers... When did Lebron leave a 3-peat dynasty?

Pippen inherited a fully-grown, 3-peat dynasty in 1994 and could never grow a team from infancy like 85' Jordan or 05' Lebron (1st options) - Pippen did the opposite by destroying a 3-peat dynast to borderline lottery in 18 months before MJ returned in 95'.. Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention due to lack of talent..

[8Ball]

Consider that Lebron lost in the 2nd Round in 2010, so he left the Cavs a 2nd Round loser

Then he was beaten by record amount in 2014 and this drubbing was a far worse performance than any of the Spurs' Western opponents, aka the Heat were equal to a 1st or 2nd Round Western team.

Then he left another record loser in 2018.

So Lebron left 2nd Round losers or record losers... When did Lebron leave a 3-peat dynasty?

Pippen inherited a fully-grown, 3-peat dynasty in 1994 and could never grow a team from infancy like 85' Jordan or 05' Lebron (1st options) - Pippen did the opposite by destroying a 3-peat dynast to borderline lottery in 18 months before MJ returned in 95'.. Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention due to lack of talent..

Michael Jordan at 38: 22ppg on 40%
LeBron james at 38: 29 ppg on 50% + all time leading scorer

1b to prime AD at 38 as well.

[3ba11]

Michael Jordan at 38: 22ppg on 40%
LeBron james at 38: 29 ppg on 50% + all time leading scorer

1b to prime AD at 38 as well.


Lebron is nearly a year younger and Jordan was averaging 25/6/5 before the injury, which equals 30 in today's game of teams scoring 10 more points per 100 possessions (drtg) and faster pace..




Michael Jordan at 38: 22ppg on 40%
LeBron james at 38: 29 ppg on 50% + all time leading scorer

1b to prime AD at 38 as well.


In the 46 games that Jordan played in 01/02 before the injury, he averaged

25.1 - 6.2 - 5.3 - 1.5 - 0.5 on 42%
points - rebounds - assists - steals - blocks

Jordan's numbers were improving as the season went on.

In his last 20 games up to the injury he averaged
27.5 - 6.4 - 5.2 - 1.3 - 0.5 on 44%

In his last 10 games up to the injury he averaged
29.7 - 6.6 - 6.1 - 1.2 - 0.3 on 47%



Wizards were a winning team 26-20 and the 4 seed before MJ got hurt and this was despite a 2-9 start and Rip was out many games (15-1 with Rip/MJ in lineup together before MJ's injury in Game 46)

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron is nearly a year younger and Jordan was averaging 25/6/5 before the injury, which equals 30 in today's game of teams scoring 10 more points per 100 possessions (drtg) and faster pace..

In the 46 games that Jordan played in 01/02 before the injury, he averaged

25.1 - 6.2 - 5.3 - 1.5 - 0.5 on 42%
points - rebounds - assists - steals - blocks

Jordan's numbers were improving as the season went on.

In his last 20 games up to the injury he averaged
27.5 - 6.4 - 5.2 - 1.3 - 0.5 on 44%

In his last 10 games up to the injury he averaged
29.7 - 6.6 - 6.1 - 1.2 - 0.3 on 47%

I remember you early in the season when LeBron was off to a slow start using PER to show MJ was better at this age. You used MJ's PER for the entire year too.

But since LeBron surpassed MJ in PER, now it's "before the injury" :oldlol:

[3ba11]

I remember you early in the season when LeBron was off to a slow start using PER to show MJ was better at this age. You used MJ's PER for the entire year too.

But since LeBron surpassed MJ in PER, now it's "before the injury" :oldlol:


There's a reason that MJ shut it down in Game #60 and didn't play the last month..

It's because he was hurt in Game 46 and eventually had to shut it down.. This is well-known.

2002 showed that MJ was 26-20 (4 seed) before the injury and this was despite a 2-9 start and Rip missing many games - they were 15-1 with Rip/MJ in the lineup before MJ's injury.. They were figuring it out but MJ was starting to push it too hard because the stats show that he averaged 30/6/6 in the 10 games before the injury and his stats were steadily ramping up.

Btw, Lebron's PER is 20.1 in this series, aka the same as 2021 1st Round except this time AD and others stayed healthy and carried him... And again, Lebron is nearly a year younger than Jordan was in 2002 when he was averaged 25/6/5 before the injury, which equals 30 in today's game where teams score 10 more points per 100 possessions (drtg) and faster pace..

[John8204]

Jordan's Playoff record as an underdog(lower seed)
1 - 0-1
2 - 0-2
3 - 0-3
4 - 0-4
5 - 2-5
6 - 4-6
7 - 5-6
8 - 6-6

Lebrons record as the lower seed
1- 0-1
2 - 1-1
3 - 1-2
4 - 2-2
5 - 3-2
6 - 4-2
7 - 5-2
8 - 7-2
9 - 8-2

[3ba11]

.
1st Round Stats

Career Jordan....... 37/6/5

2023 Lebron........ 22/11/5


Jordan was required to play like Jimmy Butler's recent series vs Bucks, while Lebron was carried by comparison and simply a ring-chaser on a stacked team.

[SouBeachTalents]

.
1st Round Stats

Career Jordan....... 37/6/5

2023 Lebron........ 22/11/5


Jordan was required to play like Jimmy Butler's recent series vs Bucks, while Lebron was carried by comparison and simply a ring-chaser on a stacked team.
Comparing 38 year old LeBron to prime Jordan. That's some high praise :applause:

[3ba11]

Jordan's Playoff record as an underdog(lower seed)
1 - 0-1
2 - 0-2
3 - 0-3
4 - 0-4
5 - 2-5
6 - 4-6
7 - 5-6
8 - 6-6

Lebrons record as the lower seed
1- 0-1
2 - 1-1
3 - 1-2
4 - 2-2
5 - 3-2
6 - 4-2
7 - 5-2
8 - 7-2
9 - 8-2


Jordan barely needed any help to have dominant favorites, while Lebron isn't capable of dominant favorites despite having 25 more top 5 draft picks (34 to 9), or 6 more teams with multiple all-star teammates (Jordan had none), or dominant sidekicks that can lead the PPG for entire playoff runs and outplay league MVP's (Curry, Dirk, Jokic).

Lebron's veteran super-team was an underdog to baby Westbrick or the fossil Spurs, which is an indictment on Lebron that he isn't capable of dominant favorites regardless of cast, while oddsmakers were wary of Lebron losing as the favorite in the previous 3 seasons (09-11')/

Btw, notice that MJ needed 40 ppg and 9 apg to have big upsets against the 89' Cavs (#1 SRS) or Ewing's Knicks (#7), while Lebron needed 25 on 45% to beat the #6 SRS Pistons in 07' - this would be the worst series of Jordan's career.

[3ba11]

Comparing 38 year old LeBron to prime Jordan. That's some high praise :applause:


It's a clear distinction that MJ was required to do far more for all 6 chips - his worst chip had 27 PER, while Lebron will be carried with 20 PER

And btw, expect Lebron's 20 PER to decline going forward as the rounds progress and he needs more and more carrying from all-stars like D-Lo, AD, Reaves and Pippen, I mean Rui

[SouBeachTalents]

It's a clear distinction that MJ was required to do far more for all 6 chips - his worst chip had 27 PER, while Lebron will be carried with 20 PER

And btw, expect Lebron's 20 PER to decline going forward as the rounds progress and he needs more and more carrying from all-stars like D-Lo, AD, Reaves and Pippen, I mean Rui
LeBron has 9 playoff runs with a higher PER than Kobe's career high, including all 4 of his titles.

[3ba11]

LeBron has 9 playoff runs with a higher PER than Kobe's career high, including all 4 of his titles.


Since MJ obviously wins the winning aspect compared to Lebron, I'm forced to discuss the only thing that Lebron has a chance at - stats - and of course he still loses to MJ, per the PER discussion.

Otoh, we know that Kobe won a couple chips as 2nd option to Shaq, so the ring count and winning aspect is worth discussing with Kobe/Lebron... So when we ask "who is the better winner", we see that Kobe's expert jumpshooting skill doesn't impose spot-up roles like Lebron's ball-dominance and therefore yields superior teammate development, fits, strategic capacity/coaching and ultimately, team ceiling/Finals records... with less help... ditto curry

[tpols]

.
1st Round Stats

Career Jordan....... 37/6/5

2023 Lebron........ 22/11/5


Jordan was required to play like Jimmy Butler's recent series vs Bucks, while Lebron was carried by comparison and simply a ring-chaser on a stacked team.

That's a good comparison. But that's also the difference between Bam and AD.

Lebron fans still have no idea how lucky he's been to play on such loaded teams. The Lakers with Bam in ADs place easily lose to the grizz. And would've lost in 2020 too.

[3ba11]

LeBron's teammates don't play well = his "suboptimal" style of play clearly the reason behind their struggles

LeBron's teammates play well = STACKED! CARRIED!

OP's scared little ass always got both sides covered.


Lebron is okay in small doses... So it's fine if Lebron is ball-dominant at 22 ppg

But when he averages 38 ppg, the brand of ball is such trash that he can't beat a 1-star team and +700 underdog (2009) or he loses by record amount with all-star teammates getting him 20/10 (2018).

Ball-dominators like Magic or Lebron are too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so they need all-time scoring help to offset the load that they cannot carry themselves.. They need all-time scorers at sidekick like AD, Kareem Wade or Kyrie, and all-star scorers at 3rd option like Worthy, Bosh, Love, D-Lo or Westbrook...

Otoh, expert jumpshooters can score 40 while the ball moves and teammates assist them, so they can carry the scoring load and win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen, Terry, Pau, Lowry or Klay.. Since the best expert jumpshooters need less help to win more, they're superior to the best centers, who needs less help than the best ball-dominators.. Therefore the all-time rankings are based on the skillset that needs the least help: MJ, Kobe, Bird, Curry, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Magic, Lebron, Oscar

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron is okay in small doses... So it's fine if Lebron is ball-dominant at 22 ppg

But when he averages 38 ppg, the brand of ball is such trash that he can't beat a 1-star team and +700 underdog (2009) or he loses by record amount with all-star teammates getting him 20/10 (2018).

Ball-dominators like Magic or Lebron are too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so they need all-time scoring help to offset the load that they cannot carry themselves.. They need all-time scorers at sidekick like AD, Kareem Wade or Kyrie, and all-star scorers at 3rd option like Worthy, Bosh, Love, D-Lo or Westbrook...

Otoh, expert jumpshooters can score 40 while the ball moves and teammates assist them, so they can carry the scoring load and win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen, Terry, Pau, Lowry or Klay.. Since the best expert jumpshooters need less help to win more, they're superior to the best centers, who needs less help than the best ball-dominators.. Therefore the all-time rankings are based on the skillset that needs the least help: MJ, Kobe, Bird, Curry, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Magic, Lebron, Oscar
So Hakeem, the guy who won with less help than anybody, isn't even in your top 10?

Uh oh, time to reshuffle these rankings again :lol

[3ba11]

So Hakeem, the guy who won with less help than anybody, isn't even in your top 10?

Uh oh, time to reshuffle these rankings again :lol


Hakeem needed an elite 1st option at sidekick to win multiple rings just like everyone else in history not named MJ or Kobe or Duncan or Curry (guys in my top 10)

So hakeem still needed a ton of help to win, especially any year that MJ was in the league.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hakeem needed an elite 1st option at sidekick to win multiple rings just like everyone else in history not named MJ or Kobe or Duncan or Curry (guys in my top 10)

So hakeem still needed a ton of help to win, especially any year that MJ was in the league.
Drexler averaged 20.5 ppg during Houston's title run, which is what Pippen averaged during the Bulls first 3peat.

[8Ball]

"pre-injury Jordan"


Meanwhile LeBron tore a tendon in his foot and still ended up averaging 29ppg.


lmfao.

[8Ball]

Drexler averaged 20.5 ppg during Houston's title run, which is what Pippen averaged during the Bulls first 3peat.

Jimmy Butle > Clyde Drexler.


2020 Heat > whatever dog shit team Clyde was on that made the finals in the 90s.

[3ba11]

Drexler averaged 20.5 ppg during Houston's title run, which is what Pippen averaged during the Bulls first 3peat.


In the 1990's, it's common knowledge that the top tier were guys that led their team to the Finals as the 1st option like Hakeem, MJ, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Drexler and Ewing... (Robinson/Duncan in 99' although Robinson wasn't 1st option)... Drexler actually had 2 Finals runs as the top guy.

Those are the best players of the 90's, so Hakeem teamed up with another top tier guy just like Lebron did with Wade or Kyrie or AD.. Everyone in history needed another top-producer like Kobe needing Shaq or Duncan won a chip with Kawhi... Only MJ won 4+ chips without a top tier guy, while Kobe won 2 and Lebron won zero - his 4 chips required a top-tier producer from another team to be his sidekick - they were all-time producers (AD) or all-time scorers (Wade, Kyrie).

[SouBeachTalents]

In the 1990's, it's common knowledge that the top tier were guys that led their team to the Finals as the 1st option like Hakeem, MJ, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Drexler and Ewing... (Robinson/Duncan in 99' although Robinson wasn't 1st option)... Drexler actually had 2 Finals runs as the top guy.

Those are the best players of the 90's, so Hakeem teamed up with another top tier guy just like Lebron did with Wade or Kyrie or AD.. Everyone in history needed another top-producer like Kobe needing Shaq or Duncan won a chip with Kawhi... Only MJ won 4+ chips without a top tier guy, while Kobe won 2 and Lebron won zero - his 4 chips required a top-tier producer from another team to be his sidekick - they were all-time producers (AD) or all-time scorers (Wade, Kyrie).
He won with Wade averaging 16 ppg in 2013, less than Pippen or Gasol did for any title run.

[tpols]

He won with Wade averaging 16 ppg in 2013, less than Pippen or Gasol did for any title run.

Lebron and wade were also notably horrible chemistry wise especially in 2013 where they had a negative +/- on the court together in the Finals.

Wade played way better than those averages without him years later in 2016 when he was totally on his own.

When are you guys going to acknowledge chemistry and a million other variables matter towards an individuals production?

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron and wade were also notably horrible chemistry wise especially in 2013 where they had a negative +/- on the court together in the Finals.

Wade played way better than those averages without him years later in 2016 when he was totally on his own.

When are you guys going to acknowledge chemistry and a million other variables matter towards an individuals production?

Thats just your subjective interpretation. Lebron didnt have any problems exceling with the fit, so why should Wade get a pass?


In reaity, it had nothing to do with chemistry.

Wade was horriby declined and focused on many other things after 2012. It took LeBron leaving to wake his ass up.

He was benched in the 2013 finals. The fact is, he was bad.

Those are facts.

You trying to attribute that bad-ness to LeBron, is not a fact. Its projection.

[tpols]

Thats just your subjective interpretation. Lebron didnt have any problems exceling with the fit, so why should Wade get a pass?


:biggums:

Of course he did. 2011 was the ultimate example of that. Lebron quit when he saw Wade was going to win FMVP and from there Wade took a backseat so as to enable them to win. It was actually very unselfish on his part.

[3ba11]

He won with Wade averaging 16 ppg in 2013, less than Pippen or Gasol did for any title run.


Lebron, Wade and Bosh won the East without doing much because they had the top 3 first options in the East on 1 team versus a diluted conference... Lebron only needed 25 ppg and couldn't carry the load against good teams because he needed Wade to get 20 in those Finals as a near-equal-scoring partner.

The low burden of playing on the 2013 super-team (25 ppg) is similar to the low burden this year (22 ppg). Btw, Lebron only needed 25 to win the 2007 East, so this kind of low production on many playoff runs confirms a low burden compared to Jordan.

Lebron needed an all-time scorer and elite 1st option to play sidekick for every title and can't win with a secondary producer at sidekick like Wiggins, Pippen, Pau, Lowry, Terry, or Klay - only expert jumpshooters can win with this lesser scoring help because they have sufficient brand to carry the scoring load and they can also develop teammates and chemistry, which requires less talent.

Ultimately, the fossil Celtics were already underdogs by 2010, so guys like Lebron, Derozan, Wade, Paul George and Bosh were supposed to battle for supremacy for the next decade, but Lebron teamed up with everyone instead.. It's the definition of manufacturing a Finals streak and getting extra chances (Finals trips)

[Mr. Jabbar]

This was a 5-6am meltdown post on a saturday morning.


3ball had ZERO sleep last night.:roll:

:roll::roll:

[red1]

ring ring ring ring



ring?




https://i.pinimg.com/736x/89/8d/24/898d2495f65db7c4379abd254daefdc6.jpg

[SATAN]

LeBron James.

[ArbitraryWater]

:biggums:

Of course he did. 2011 was the ultimate example of that. Lebron quit when he saw Wade was going to win FMVP and from there Wade took a backseat so as to enable them to win. It was actually very unselfish on his part.

the way you dumb these things down is insane lmao.


In reaity, it had nothing to do with chemistry.

Wade was horriby declined and focused on many other things after 2012. It took LeBron leaving to wake his ass up.

He was benched in the 2013 finals. The fact is, he was bad.

Those are facts.

You trying to attribute that bad-ness to LeBron, is not a fact. Its projection.

[DMAVS41]

:biggums:

Of course he did. 2011 was the ultimate example of that. Lebron quit when he saw Wade was going to win FMVP and from there Wade took a backseat so as to enable them to win. It was actually very unselfish on his part.

This was true for 2012 and Wade was definitely still a player the caliber of a Lebron that year when he wanted to be. People forget just how great a healthy Wade was even all the way through 2012 playoffs.

However, Wade in 13 was no longer that guy with his injuries.

Taking a step back doesn't explain his playoff performance of deteriorating defense and sub 50% TS on limited volume. To his credit, he stepped up in the finals a bit, but was not close to his normal self.

That is what Lebron haters really fail to grasp...his title in 13 was not with the Wade/Bosh from 11 and 12...they had really declined...hell, I just said Wade stepped up in the finals...which he did...and he still didn't crack 20 a game and was barely above 50% TS.

Just stick to hating on Lebron for 2011...he deserves it and most of what you say will be accurate.

The shit about him winning in 13/16/20...those are all losing arguments.

[And1AllDay]

This was a 5-6am meltdown post on a saturday morning.


3ball had ZERO sleep last night.:roll:

:oldlol::roll: