Why Durant and the Suns lost

[bdonovan]

For years, I've educated people on Durant's failings as a player. He is the ultimate star for casual fans who suffer from "entertainment bias"- and ridiculously over-value point scoring and in particular ISO. Games are not won that way but those who suffer from this bias won't learn. I have no interest in their shenanigans but glad to explain to the rest.

I documented how there are 4 dimensions to the game- Individual Offense (IO), Team Offense (TO), Individual Defense (ID), and Team Defense (TD). Durant is exceptional at IO; one of the league's best. This is the 'entertainment' part of basketball. It is a crucial facet of the game and the most entertaining.

But not the only part. Durant is pitiful at Team Defense, poor at Team Offense and average at Individual Defense (that is solid when he's actually on his man, but usually he's not, instead improvising his own energy-saving "zone" defense).

As a good example of his failings as a defender, see this play of Durant refusing to play defense:

1:02 - 1:05 - Durant refuses to play defense, runs out of the way of the ball-handler, allowing him to dunk
https://youtu.be/tZWyBQpj8_A?t=60

There are MANY more examples in this video of Durant NOT guarding his man, and breaking the Suns defense. Watch the whole thing and watch Durant on D.

How did I know to look for this? He's been doing it his Entire career and especially with the Warriors who boasted a better record when KD was injured in BOTH the regular season and the playoffs.

The Casual Fan never notices these things. He is too busy pumping his fist at offense to pay attention to the intricacies of team and individual defense.

Individual Defense requires commitment. Durant conserves energy for his offensive play.

Team Defense requires sticking to your man. Durant does not do that. He plays OFF his man in the hopes of a high profile block that Casuals eat up when its on ESPN. Not realizing that for every ONE time he gets that block he gives up about Three or Four easy buckets to the opposing team when they pass to his man and he BREAKS his team's defense.

For an example of that, see this possession:
https://youtu.be/tZWyBQpj8_A?t=233

You can see Durant is nowhere near his defender; hoping to get a highlight reel block on someone driving, he gives up an easy basket due to not guarding his man.

Durant finished -20, the worst +/- of both teams for starters, with the exception of Ayton (-21). To the degree stars make their teammates better and play BOTH ends of the court, rarely is the supposedly best player among the worst in +/-.

Most of Durant's oversights are NOT captured by stats. You have to watch the game. When you break your team's D, someone else gets blamed for not guarding their man, because that person has left their man to guard the man Durant is NOT guarding.

For all the criticism of Jokic being a 2 time MVP, not being fit, or a dominant game, you can see how he makes his teammates better. He draws two defenders with his size and shooting threat, and passes masterfully. Often such players do not rank among top in assists because the person they pass to passed to someone else; but they have succeeded in breaking the opposing defense for their teammates.

I credit Durant in that he plays the game in a way that makes it seem like his team is at fault for losing. In actuality, he gives up more points than he scores; that's precisely why GSW had a better record without him.

The Suns gave up 125 to the Nuggets. Note that the Nuggets NEVER scored as high as 125 against the Timberwolves in a single game. The Nuggets only averaged 116 all season.

I fully realize Casuals will scream bloody murder; their low-wattage takes are not interesting to me. The same people who claimed the Nets would win rings with Durant but never did are now mindlessly claiming the Suns will ; having no shame about their past predictions. Happy to discuss with those who follow the game at a reasonable level.

[ArbitraryWater]

Its crazy that you can actually analyze ball well yet at the same time make weird posts about white supremacists officials, Draymond Green/Sabonis, Giannis skin color, etc. but this is on point 100%.


Some of these criticisms but to a lesser degree also apply to Kobe.

[bdonovan]

Some additional clips:

A. https://youtu.be/tZWyBQpj8_A?t=254

Notice Durant is NOT guarding anyone, forcing his teammates to go 4 on 5 against the Nuggets offense. One reason the Nuggets scored more against the Suns than they ever did against the Timberwolves. 5 on 4 is easier.

B. https://youtu.be/tZWyBQpj8_A?t=302

Durant is about 10 feet plus AWAY from his man giving him a WIDE open 3 pointer.

C. https://youtu.be/tZWyBQpj8_A?t=325

Durant commits a mental mistake, ends up in no-mans land, guarding no one and leaving his man wide open for a 3 point shot.

Friends, you can't win like this. All the highlight reel offensive moves come from energy conservation on the defensive end. Something 80%+ fans will not pick up on.

[bdonovan]

Its crazy that you can actually analyze ba well yet at the same time make weird posts about white supremacists officials, Draymond Green/Sabonis, Giannis skin color, etc. but this is on point 100%.


Some of these criticisms but to a lesser degree also apply to Kobe.

I agree, while Kobe at times eroded the quality of team offense (esp. when he competed with his own teammate Shaq as to who was the better offensive player by taking ill-advised shots), he was as a tenacious defender who took that part of the game seriously.

As for the other stuff lol. We can agree to disagree.

[Wardell Curry]

Sir, it's 1 game. Calm down.

Anyways, if the Suns lose in the playoffs it'll be because of a lack of depth. Not because of Durant's defense.

[Wardell Curry]

All the highlight reel offensive moves come from energy conservation on the defensive end. Something 80%+ fans will not pick up on.

Kobe played like this for years and lived off of reputation defensively from when he was a young buck. But when Shaq was gone his defense fell off pretty hard because he had to carry more offensive load. Even when Shaq was still around he was starting to skate through games defensively except for nationally televised games or against other star players. He was able to keep that defensive reputation his entire career because of it.

[bdonovan]

On Team Offense, Durant does quite a few things that harm his team:

* Notice when Durant does not get the ball, he sulks well beyond the three point line.

This forces his team to play 4 against 5. Notice a theme? I pointed out that on D, he refuses to guard his man and this forces the Suns to play 4 defenders against 5 Nuggets offensive players. On offense, he forces the Suns 4 other offensive players to play against 5 Nuggets defenders. VERY hard to win that way for the rest of the team.

* Durant does not set screens for his teammates.

Basketball is a TEAM sport. You help your team win by helping them score.

* Durant does not move without the ball

Watch the elite players; they are moving without the ball disrupting the opposing team's defense.

* Durant does not pass well

Durant dumps the ball off if he can't get a good drive. Not the same as precision passes to open or cutting teammates.

Hence, poor team offense by Durant fails to make his teammates better; makes them worse.

[ImKobe]

Its crazy that you can actually analyze ba well yet at the same time make weird posts about white supremacists officials, Draymond Green/Sabonis, Giannis skin color, etc. but this is on point 100%.


Some of these criticisms but to a lesser degree also apply to Kobe.

Lol you're even more braindead than OP.

OP's defensive example of KD is him not fouling MPJ on a 2 on 1 fastbreak, cmon man. Him and Book are playing the most minutes in the POs they're not taking dumb fouls like that early in the game. KD was also defending Aaron Gordon a lot of the time and you could tell that it was in their game plan to leave him open and dare him to shoot that shot as KD does a lot as a help defender on Jokic and Aaron Gordon is not an elite spot-up shooter, in fact he's a below-average low-volume shooter from 3 so you want him taking those shots.

Aaron Gordon had the game of his life and OP just pins it as KD being a low IQ or a bad defender when he's just following the game plan.

[bdonovan]

Sir, it's 1 game. Calm down.

Anyways, if the Suns lose in the playoffs it'll be because of a lack of depth. Not because of Durant's defense.

My goodness, don't disgrace Steph's name with this kind of absentminded take. Address the specifics I raised or sit down.

[bdonovan]

Lol you're even more braindead than OP.

OP's defensive example of KD is him not fouling MPJ on a 2 on 1 fastbreak.....

Not a bright take. All top players would have taken the charge, contested up top, or tried to strip the ball.

You also conveniently ignored the other 4 examples. Go back and watch them. Then watch the rest of the entire video - you'll find plenty more.

Two things wrong about your take on Gordon. First, you seem to not understand the idea of switching in the NBA. If you watched the 4 videos I posted you'll see it wasn't just Gordon shooting wide-open because of Durant. Take a look at the one where Durant leaves Murray wide open. You don't switch, the team suffers.

Second, Gordon was an average 3 point shooter when people were actually defending him! If you don't defend him, gee he becomes an exceptional shooter- going 9 for 13, and 3 for 4 from 3 point range. Why? Because he was wide open.

Durant's absent-minded defense turned Gordon into an all-star scoring on a 9-13 efficiency and 75% from 3 point range (23 points). He only outscored Gordon by 6 points and as I mentioned he gave up points to other Nuggets players.

Summary: Gordon averaged 13 points against the Timberwolves. He scored 23 against KD.

When you add up all the points he gave up to Murray and others, and then how he forced his team to go 4 on 5 on offense when he didn't get the ball, it becomes obvious. The Suns aren't going anywhere.

This is how you lose games.

[ArbitraryWater]

Sir, it's 1 game. Calm down.

Anyways, if the Suns lose in the playoffs it'll be because of a lack of depth. Not because of Durant's defense.


This isnt a game 1 thing.

This is a KDs career thing. Hes been stagnating/limiting offenses forever with his monotone iso style. Hes ramped up his defensive efforts in the last few years, mainly as far as weak side blocks go which I give him effort for, but hes still a bit of a superstar one trick pony. He does what he does at the highest of levels, but not much else.

[Carbine]

Some additional clips:

A. https://youtu.be/tZWyBQpj8_A?t=254

Notice Durant is NOT guarding anyone, forcing his teammates to go 4 on 5 against the Nuggets offense. One reason the Nuggets scored more against the Suns than they ever did against the Timberwolves. 5 on 4 is easier.

B. https://youtu.be/tZWyBQpj8_A?t=302

Durant is about 10 feet plus AWAY from his man giving him a WIDE open 3 pointer.

C. https://youtu.be/tZWyBQpj8_A?t=325

Durant commits a mental mistake, ends up in no-mans land, guarding no one and leaving his man wide open for a 3 point shot.

Friends, you can't win like this. All the highlight reel offensive moves come from energy conservation on the defensive end. Something 80%+ fans will not pick up on.

First one is standard play. No issue whatsoever

Second one you're playing the percentages. Gordon shooting 3s is a good thing for your defense.

[ArbitraryWater]

I agree, while Kobe at times eroded the quality of team offense (esp. when he competed with his own teammate Shaq as to who was the better offensive player by taking ill-advised shots), he was as a tenacious defender who took that part of the game seriously.

As for the other stuff lol. We can agree to disagree.

:cheers:

Im not sure about Kobe being a tenacious defender. Maybe until 02 or so. He would ramp it up for the playoffs later on, and after all his potential/ability as a defender was higher than KDs.

But Kobe did more work off the ball than KD and playmaked more.

He could be a ballhog and a chucker, freezing the offense at times, but he was a better penetrator, playmaker, and diverse offensive player and scorer than KD. He scored more within equal opportunity sets.

[tpols]

I wouldn't say Durant is terrible at team defense. At least on the Warriors and thunder he wasn't. His length and mobility make him disruptive. He's weak as a man defender because of his frail frame and he doesn't put in work off ball to tire teams out.

[Carbine]

Also, they track this stuff. Gordon on wide open 3s (nobody within 6 feet of him) he shot 30 percent on the year.

30/100

You let him shoot all the open threes he wants. Follow the gameplan.

[ArbitraryWater]

Also, they track this stuff. Gordon on wide open 3s (nobody within 6 feet of him) he shot 30 percent on the year.

30/100

You let him shoot all the open threes he wants. Follow the gameplan.


100 times no one was within 6 feet of Gordon on a 3?

[ImKobe]

Not a bright take. All top players would have taken the charge, contested up top, or tried to strip the ball.

You also conveniently ignored the other 4 examples. Go back and watch them. Then watch the rest of the entire video - you'll find plenty more.

Two things wrong about your take on Gordon. First, you seem to not understand the idea of switching in the NBA. If you watched the 4 videos I posted you'll see it wasn't just Gordon shooting wide-open because of Durant. Take a look at the one where Durant leaves Murray wide open. You don't switch, the team suffers.

Second, Gordon was an average 3 point shooter when people were actually defending him! If you don't defend him, gee he becomes an exceptional shooter- going 9 for 13, and 3 for 4 from 3 point range. Why? Because he was wide open.

Durant's absent-minded defense turned Gordon into an all-star scoring on a 9-13 efficiency and 75% from 3 point range (23 points). He only outscored Gordon by 6 points and as I mentioned he gave up points to other Nuggets players.

Summary: Gordon averaged 13 points against the Timberwolves. He scored 23 against KD.

When you add up all the points he gave up to Murray and others, and then how he forced his team to go 4 on 5 on offense when he didn't get the ball, it becomes obvious. The Suns aren't going anywhere.

This is how you lose games.

Gordon gets left open all the time man. He usually makes 1 out of 3 three-pointers. 3-4 from 3 is something he does in maybe 4-5 games out of 65-70+ in the RS.

He didn't leave Murray wide open in the 3rd clip you posted, he's clearly guarding Gordon in that clip and is in a position to help on Murray if he took it to the basket lol. Shamet is a poor defender but you'll live with Murray shooting a long 2 when Denver can generate much better looks.

It does look like KD messed up in that 4th clip you posted where it looked like Jokic was going to oop it to Gordon but Jamal screened Durant and popped wide open for the 3 as they messed up the switch, that happens every now & then but hey at least you gave me 1 clip where Durant did something bad in 36 minutes of game time.

Idk how anyone is putting this on Durant tho. He didn't have a great game by his standards but the Suns are outmanned as they are in every series. If a WB-led team can put up 110+ on most nights then Denver is going to generate a lot of pts on them, and you can't ask Durant to carry the offense, the rebounding & make every defensive play for you while playing 40+ mpg in his mid-30s, it's not happening. Durant had the best DRTG among PHX starters in Game 1 but it doesn't really tell us anything in such a small sample size, they all got torched overall.

If Suns lose the series it's because they didn't have enough depth around their best 2 players to keep up with Denver. Suns did a good job containing Jokic but they don't really have the pieces defensively to stop everyone. They're going to need Durant & Booker to give them 65-70+ every night & for Ayton & Chris Paul to combine for 30. It's doable vs. a bad defensive team in Denver but if Jamal has it going like this it's going to be tough to overcome.

[bdonovan]

First one is standard play. No issue whatsoever

Second one you're playing the percentages. Gordon shooting 3s is a good thing for your defense.

Wrong. Shows you have no idea how defense is played. I mean, zero clue. You think being equidistant from two opposing players is how you play defense - out of range on both offensive players? When Gordon went to set the off ball screen, Durant should have switched immediately onto Porter Jr. who was wide open for 3. It's basic basketball common sense that when your man screens, you guard the opposing player who is now open. Turned out the Nuggets didn't go that route but it's bad team defense to hang out in the middle of nowhere.

As I explained earlier, Gordon was 9-13 because he was wide open. You don't play the percentages by refusing to guard an average 3 point shooter because an average 3 point shooter becomes a great 3 point shooter when you leave him open. This is such common sense that I think some of you either have atrocious judgment or just don't understand the game. Gordon scored at 75% from 3 and almost doubled his points total from the Timberwolves series because of this. It's not a "strategy" to leave players wide open- Durant does this to whoever he's guarding.

Further I showed how other players besides Gordon scored wide open because Durant refused to play D.

Even worse in other cases, Gordon could do whatever he wanted to in team offense, set on-ball and off-ball screens with KD nowhere in the picture. I honestly think some of you should take a remedial class in NBA defense. You make excuses to cover for your ignorance and you will continue to get it wrong until you level up your comprehension of how defense is played.

[bdonovan]

Gordon gets left open all the time man. He usually makes 1 out of 3 three-pointers. 3-4 from 3 is something he does in maybe 4-5 games out of 65-70+ in the RS.

He didn't leave Murray wide open in the 3rd clip you posted, he's clearly guarding Gordon in that clip and is in a position to help on Murray if he took it to the basket lol. Shamet is a poor defender but you'll live with Murray shooting a long 2 when Denver can generate much better looks....


Gordon is guarded in virtually every game. Do you know how I know that? Because he doesn't shoot anywhere close to 82% True Shooting in your average game.

Yes he did leave Murray wide open because he doesn't switch. This is not complicated lol. If you don't understand the idea of switching and how defensive players are obligated to switch, you don't understand the very basics of basketball.

What I find most amusing about the excuse-makers, beyond missing basic elements of the game, is you don't realize that no matter who Durant is guarding he will do this. His man gets wide open. Go and watch the Clippers game you'll see the same thing.

You failed to address how Durant turned an ordinary player into an all-star.


Second, Gordon was an average 3 point shooter when people were actually defending him! If you don't defend him, gee he becomes an exceptional shooter- going 9 for 13, and 3 for 4 from 3 point range. Why? Because he was wide open.

Durant's absent-minded defense turned Gordon into an all-star scoring on a 9-13 efficiency and 75% from 3 point range (23 points). He only outscored Gordon by 6 points and as I mentioned he gave up points to other Nuggets players.

Summary: Gordon averaged 13 points against the Timberwolves. He scored 23 against KD.

Keep spinning my friend :) And keep losing. The problem with excuse-making is you will keep rooting for KD and keep being surprised when they lose and not understand why. Oh not, that's right, it's because of NEEDS MOAR HELP! I trust you did that with the Nets and you'll do it again with the Suns and whoever he joins next.

[BallsOut]

LeBron is a worst defender than Durant by far. It’s actually laughable to nitpick like this. Apparently guys like that don’t need to play team defense or individual defense that well to get good results.

[bdonovan]

I wouldn't say Durant is terrible at team defense. At least on the Warriors and thunder he wasn't. His length and mobility make him disruptive. He's weak as a man defender because of his frail frame and he doesn't put in work off ball to tire teams out.

He wasn't bad at team defense on the Warriors ??? I watched most games being a Warriors fan. Maybe you should read some of my dozens of comments on this board over the years as I documented, with specificity, how he broke the team defense. They are eerily similar to what I'm reporting here. No matter WHO he guarded, great players and average players alike, he left them open on defense and broke the defensive scheme.

I wish this forum had better search capabilities or I would link to all the posts I made.

If some of your were stock-pickers you would be unemployed. Your ability to analyze and predict isn't there. You get it consistently wrong and then choose the wrong reasons for the outcome. Only in sports can you be wrong with such regularity and never face any consequences.

Were all of you making excuses like this when the Nets lost or was it "Needs MOAR help" despite having Kyrie Irving on his team and otherwise a better crew than LeBron had when he brought teams to the finals or won it all. You can't follow the defensive performance if you're ball-watching the entire time.

[bdonovan]

LeBron is a worst defender than Durant by far. It’s actually laughable to nitpick like this. Apparently guys like that don’t need to play team defense or individual defense that well to get good results.

My friend, its posts like this which degrade the discussion. Re-read the detail I posted as well as the videos and respond directly to the substance.

[tpols]

Gordon is guarded in virtually every game. Do you know how I know that? Because he doesn't shoot anywhere close to 82% True Shooting in your average game.

Yes he did leave Murray wide open because he doesn't switch. This is not complicated lol. If you don't understand the idea of switching and how defensive players are obligated to switch, you don't understand the very basics of basketball.

What I find most amusing about the excuse-makers, beyond missing basic elements of the game, is you don't realize that no matter who Durant is guarding he will do this. His man gets wide open. Go and watch the Clippers game you'll see the same thing.

You failed to address how Durant turned an ordinary player into an all-star.



Keep spinning my friend :) And keep losing. The problem with excuse-making is you will keep rooting for KD and keep being surprised when they lose and not understand why. Oh not, that's right, it's because of NEEDS MOAR HELP! I trust you did that with the Nets and you'll do it again with the Suns and whoever he joins next.

The Nets with healthy harden and kyrie destroyed the Celtics in 5 games, and were destroying the bucks before they went down. They definitely didn't lose because of Durant. They lost because their best players were constantly injured and missing time. KD was a pinky toe away from burying the loaded Bucks all by himself.

[ArbitraryWater]

The Nets with healthy harden and kyrie destroyed the Celtics in 5 games, and were destroying the bucks before they went down. They definitely didn't lose because of Durant. They lost because their best players were constantly injured and missing time. KD was a pinky toe away from burying the loaded Bucks all by himself.

based on?

[tpols]

He wasn't bad at team defense on the Warriors ??? I watched most games being a Warriors fan. Maybe you should read some of my dozens of comments on this board over the years as I documented, with specificity, how he broke the team defense. They are eerily similar to what I'm reporting here. No matter WHO he guarded, great players and average players alike, he left them open on defense and broke the defensive scheme.

I wish this forum had better search capabilities or I would link to all the posts I made.

If some of your were stock-pickers you would be unemployed. Your ability to analyze and predict isn't there. You get it consistently wrong and then choose the wrong reasons for the outcome. Only in sports can you be wrong with such regularity and never face any consequences.

Were all of you making excuses like this when the Nets lost or was it "Needs MOAR help" despite having Kyrie Irving on his team and otherwise a better crew than LeBron had when he brought teams to the finals or won it all. You can't follow the defensive performance if you're ball-watching the entire time.

The warriors looked game breaking with KD in the playoffs man. I used to say they were better off with the defensive depth but they literally steamrolled everybody when Durant was playing with them, and without him they looked human. Their 2016 team was down 1-3 in the WCFs. That never even came close to happening again when KD was on the court.

[tpols]

based on?

Based on going up 2-0 on them with average margin of victory of 23 points. They won game 2 by 39 points lmao. Cmon arby.... You're better than this.

[BallsOut]

My friend, its posts like this which degrade the discussion. Re-read the detail I posted as well as the videos and respond directly to the substance.

No need to. If you watch LeBron play “defense” you would know what I mean.

[ArbitraryWater]

Based on going up 2-0 on them with average margin of victory of 23 points. They won game 2 by 39 points lmao. Cmon arby.... You're better than this.

And? What happened then?

When did Kyrie get injured?

Youre creating false realities. Youre literally making up NBA history.

[Carbine]

Wrong. Shows you have no idea how defense is played. I mean, zero clue. You think being equidistant from two opposing players is how you play defense - out of range on both offensive players? When Gordon went to set the off ball screen, Durant should have switched immediately onto Porter Jr. who was wide open for 3. It's basic basketball common sense that when your man screens, you guard the opposing player who is now open. Turned out the Nuggets didn't go that route but it's bad team defense to hang out in the middle of nowhere.

As I explained earlier, Gordon was 9-13 because he was wide open. You don't play the percentages by refusing to guard an average 3 point shooter because an average 3 point shooter becomes a great 3 point shooter when you leave him open. This is such common sense that I think some of you either have atrocious judgment or just don't understand the game. Gordon scored at 75% from 3 and almost doubled his points total from the Timberwolves series because of this. It's not a "strategy" to leave players wide open- Durant does this to whoever he's guarding.

Further I showed how other players besides Gordon scored wide open because Durant refused to play D.

Even worse in other cases, Gordon could do whatever he wanted to in team offense, set on-ball and off-ball screens with KD nowhere in the picture. I honestly think some of you should take a remedial class in NBA defense. You make excuses to cover for your ignorance and you will continue to get it wrong until you level up your comprehension of how defense is played.

Gordon shit 30/100 on wide open 3s this year. The numbers don't lie.

32 percent the year before

32 percent year before that.

You leave that man open in today's NBA.

[Im Still Ballin]

Aaron Gordon shot 33.3% on 2.4 three-point shots that are open (4ft+) this season. Last year, he made 34.4%; the half-season he played for Denver before that? 35.5%.

0.8/2.4 = 33.3% 3PT
1.1/3.2 = 34.4% 3PT
1.1/3.1 = 35.5% 3PT

It's hard to know if the sagging-off strategy is sound. Is it actually taking away higher-percentage baskets?

I do agree with the general premise of the thread. KD's multi-year RAPM numbers are lacking in comparison to his box score numbers.

[DMAVS41]

The warriors looked game breaking with KD in the playoffs man. I used to say they were better off with the defensive depth but they literally steamrolled everybody when Durant was playing with them, and without him they looked human. Their 2016 team was down 1-3 in the WCFs. That never even came close to happening again when KD was on the court.

Of course they were better with Durant....but you are forgetting the Rockets series in 18.

To argue they didn't come close is factually not true.

[BallsOut]

Also it seems OP is still butt hurt about Durant leaving Golden State when it was Draymonds fault for pushing him out.

Will OP keep the same dissection thesis energy today with a new thread on his own team when the Warriors get eliminated from the playoffs?

[ArbitraryWater]

The Nets with healthy harden and kyrie destroyed the Celtics in 5 games, and were destroying the bucks before they went down.


And? What happened then?

When did Kyrie get injured?

Youre creating false realities. Youre literally making up NBA history.


anddd tpols gone begging...

create fake narrative about how the nets destroyed the bucks before the injuries, then when asked when that injury actually occured to see if they were indeed destroying the bucks, he cant answer.

trollpols

[ArbitraryWater]

The warriors looked game breaking with KD in the playoffs man. I used to say they were better off with the defensive depth but they literally steamrolled everybody when Durant was playing with them, and without him they looked human. Their 2016 team was down 1-3 in the WCFs. That never even came close to happening again when KD was on the court.

What what are you taiking about? they piayed 2 post-seasons with KD, they were down 3-2 in 2018 to the Rockets and got whopped in game 1 in 2017 by the Spurs. I know you were shook in the game thread.

now youre revising history to say they were never threatened.

and by the way, to say peak Curry, KD, Thompson, Draymond were too good for everyone ese, is not a fiex. That shouid be the expectation for any top 15 GOAT added to a 73-win team.

[tpols]

Based on going up 2-0 on them with average margin of victory of 23 points. They won game 2 by 39 points lmao. Cmon arby.... You're better than this.



And? What happened then?

When did Kyrie get injured?

Youre creating false realities. Youre literally making up NBA history.

Kyrie got injured in the 2nd quarter of game 3 and exited rhe game. Nets only lost by 3 points and would've been up 3-0. They won the first two games by an average of 20+ points.

I know you just... literally go against any and everything I say because of how partisan and contrarion you are but you're just making yourself look like a fool here.

There's plenty of ammo to hate on KD outside his 2021 playoff performance. That's not the battle you want to fight if you're not dumb.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kyrie got injured in the 2nd quarter of game 3 and exited rhe game. Nets only lost by 3 points and would've been up 3-0. They won the first two games by an average of 20+ points.

I know you just... literally go against any and everything I say because of how partisan and contrarion you are but you're just making yourself look like a fool here.

There's plenty of ammo to hate on KD outside his 2021 playoff performance. That's not the battle you want to fight if you're not dumb.


Again, youre literally lying and making things up.

Irving got injured in game 4 while the Nets were trailing near haftime. So they were already on pace for the series to be tied 2-2.

[Im Still Ballin]

One must always be careful when sagging off a player - even one that's not a good shooter. A well-timed dribble handoff (DHO) can catch the defense off guard and get a strong shooter a high-quality shot.

[tpols]

Of course they were better with Durant....but you are forgetting the Rockets series in 18.

To argue they didn't come close is factually not true.

That was there only close call in two years. OP is making it out to be like KD is a negative player. I've seen with my own two eyes way too many times him dominate for that to be the case.

The main reason the sun's lost last night is they're just pitiful outside their top players and they lack the organic chemistry the Nuggets have been building for years. This is sometimes the price that is paid for constant team hopping.

[DMAVS41]

That was there only close call in two years. OP is making it out to be like KD is a negative player. I've seen with my own two eyes way too many times him dominate for that to be the case.

The main reason the sun's lost last night is they're just pitiful outside their top players and they lack the organic chemistry the Nuggets have been building for years. This is sometimes the price that is paid for constant team hopping.

I'm not defending the OP...just feel like people forget that the Warriors were probably going to lose that Rockets series if the Paul doesn't get hurt.

And, at the time, people were legit questioning if Steph/Klay/Dray had declined too much to give the help Durant needed. I argued at the time and think have been proven right...that Durant was actually limiting them in the way he played somewhat detached from the team.

So while I don't think KD was anything but the clear best player on the Suns last night...I do think there is something fair he to talk about how players like Durant tend to make their teammates look worse than they are at times.

And, of course, it isn't like the Warriors weren't great without Durant even at the time...so the narrative never made sense.

Warriors without Durant in 17... were +7.1 points per 100
Warriors without Durant in 18... were +5.1 points per 100

It wasn't until 19 that their lineups struggled without KD...but even with that...they went like 8-1 without him before the finals and easily made the finals with him not playing the 2nd half of round 2 and all of the conference finals.

[tpols]

Yea they lack chemistry because they've literally never played with each other. Nobody on the sun's out of Paul, Booker, KD, and Ayton had a bad game. They as a whole were efficient but couldn't match the Nuggets chemistry as they've had the same core for years and the sun's have barely played with one another. It's also game 1 at home so that's a must win. They had urgency on their side as well.

[Manny98]

Durant is the least impactful superstar ever, he's not a winning player simple as that

His impact is closer to that of Carmelo Anthony than he is to true GOATs like LeBron and Curry

[bdonovan]

Also it seems OP is still butt hurt about Durant leaving Golden State when it was Draymonds fault for pushing him out.

Will OP keep the same dissection thesis energy today with a new thread on his own team when the Warriors get eliminated from the playoffs?

Focus on the substance of what I'm saying and the videos I posted.

[bdonovan]

Gordon shit 30/100 on wide open 3s this year. The numbers don't lie.

32 percent the year before

32 percent year before that.

You leave that man open in today's NBA.

Gordon was 6 for 9 on 2 pointers. He scored 23 points. He scored 13 on average against the Timberwolves (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/3064290/aaron-gordon). He wasn't guarded period. Durant gave him a True Shooting % of 82% while he had 61% during the regular season (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/aaron-gordon-true-shooting-percentage).

And what was Jamal Murray's 3 point percentage being wide open? Because KD left him wide open. I suggest you watch the video because on switches KD left more people open than just these two.

(Good habit to post your sources).

[bdonovan]

Durant is the least impactful superstar ever, he's not a winning player simple as that

His impact is closer to that of Carmelo Anthony than he is to true GOATs like LeBron and Curry

Its in the intangibles where superstars differentiate themselves from stars. Stars do a few things right- often the highly visible ones like dunking, drives to the basket or shooting. Superstars do most things rights. There is a team-first mentality. It's been cool to watch certain players like Giannis develop this part of their game. Booker certainly doesn't have it and neither does Durant.

[bdonovan]

One must always be careful when sagging off a player - even one that's not a good shooter. A well-timed dribble handoff (DHO) can catch the defense off guard and get a strong shooter a high-quality shot.

The thing is Durant's not guarding anyone. He's conserving energy. I saw this 100x with the Warriors. No matter the % of the opposing player shooting, he will shoot a lower % if he's guarded. No way Gordon should score 23 points in a game, period.

Gordon also had a major impact freeing up other Nuggets with off-ball screens because Durant did not switch. Durant just stays camped in no-mans land and occasionally gets a high-profile block where people assume he's a terrific defender without recognizing the hidden costs.

And there are cases where he refused to contest, take the charge on defense - just like he refused to set screens for his teammates on offense or sulked beyond the 3 point lane forcing his teammates to go 4 on 5 against the Nuggets.

All of these things add up. You cannot beat the best teams in the league with these detrimental actions towards your team. Needs to be active on D and off the ball on offense.

[Im Still Ballin]

The thing is Durant's not guarding anyone. He's conserving energy. I saw this 100x with the Warriors. No matter the % of the opposing player shooting, he will shoot a lower % if he's guarded. No way Gordon should score 23 points in a game, period.

Gordon also had a major impact freeing up other Nuggets with off-ball screens because Durant did not switch. Durant just stays camped in no-mans land and occasionally gets a high-profile block where people assume he's a terrific defender without recognizing the hidden costs.

And there are cases where he refused to contest, take the charge on defense - just like he refused to set screens for his teammates on offense or sulked beyond the 3 point lane forcing his teammates to go 4 on 5 against the Nuggets.

All of these things add up. You cannot beat the best teams in the league with these detrimental actions towards your team. Needs to be active on D and off the ball on offense.

These are all great points.

[tpols]

OP got me thinking...

Is Kevin Durant really just Cypher from The Matrix?


https://youtu.be/_Wgn0KlSHl4

It's all an illusionnn...

Funny but probably true.

[ImKobe]

Aaron Gordon shot 33.3% on 2.4 three-point shots that are open (4ft+) this season. Last year, he made 34.4%; the half-season he played for Denver before that? 35.5%.

0.8/2.4 = 33.3% 3PT
1.1/3.2 = 34.4% 3PT
1.1/3.1 = 35.5% 3PT

It's hard to know if the sagging-off strategy is sound. Is it actually taking away higher-percentage baskets?

I do agree with the general premise of the thread. KD's multi-year RAPM numbers are lacking in comparison to his box score numbers.

Yes it is. Denver shoots far better from 3 as a team than Aaron Gordon and you'd rather leave him open and help on Jokic or Murray. If he averages 25 for the series and shoots 40% from 3 then you lose but you have to live with it. The alternative is giving Jokic & Murray easier looks and you don't want to get them hot.

[bdonovan]

Yes it is. Denver shoots far better from 3 as a team than Aaron Gordon and you'd rather leave him open and help on Jokic or Murray. If he averages 25 for the series and shoots 40% from 3 then you lose but you have to live with it. The alternative is giving Jokic & Murray easier looks and you don't want to get them hot.

I've already addressed this fallacious argument here:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511447-Why-Durant-and-the-Suns-lost&p=14766552&viewfull=1#post14766552

This brilliant strategy of Durant not guarding anyone resulted in Aaron being turned into an all-star, Jokic scoring as he usually does, Murray going for over 30, and letting the Nuggets go 5 on 4 on the Suns on most offensive possessions and scoring more against the Suns than ANY game against the Timberwolves.

Keep up the brilliant defensive strategy.

I await all the excuses when the Suns get knocked out. The Suns fans base is as illiterate on how defense works as Durant.

[AlternativeAcc.]

OP = Russwest0 AKA Simon

Unhinged after his picture was posted here and Durant left for GSW.


Don't make me link to your page bro..

[ImKobe]

I've already addressed this fallacious argument here:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511447-Why-Durant-and-the-Suns-lost&p=14766552&viewfull=1#post14766552

This brilliant strategy of Durant not guarding anyone resulted in Aaron being turned into an all-star, Jokic scoring as he usually does, Murray going for over 30, and letting the Nuggets go 5 on 4 on the Suns on most offensive possessions and scoring more against the Suns than ANY game against the Timberwolves.

Keep up the brilliant defensive strategy.

I await all the excuses when the Suns get knocked out. The Suns fans base is as illiterate on how defense works as Durant.

He's playing off Gordon to help on Murray & Jokic and on the glass.. Suns are too small outside of him & Ayton. You don't know shit lol.

Good on you for playing the results off 1 game like Gordon is prime Ray Allen from 3 lmao. He shoots below league average from 3 but you think it's a bad defensive strategy to let him shoot those when he takes less than 3 per game all year? I think I'll live with Aaron Gordon shooting 3s instead of giving Murray open driving lanes & 2nd chances for Jokic. Gordon made FOUR threes in the entire 1st rd series. You'll let him shoot 4-5 threes per game & live with the results.

[Carbine]

You can't take everything away. Teams score 110 a game for a reason, you gotta pick your poison these days.

Gordon 3's you'll live with.

Kind of like how the warriors are living with Sabonis taking jumpers. It's not that Looney is being lazy it playing non winning basketball. It's the gameplan.

[AlternativeAcc.]

He's playing off Gordon to help on Murray & Jokic and on the glass.. Suns are too small outside of him & Ayton. You don't know shit lol.

Good on you for playing the results off 1 game like Gordon is prime Ray Allen from 3 lmao. He shoots below league average from 3 but you think it's a bad defensive strategy to let him shoot those when he takes less than 3 per game all year? I think I'll live with Aaron Gordon shooting 3s instead of giving Murray open driving lanes & 2nd chances for Jokic. Gordon made FOUR threes in the entire 1st rd series. You'll let him shoot 4-5 threes per game & live with the results.

Bingo... Durant is a zone roamer and secondary rim protector

[ArbitraryWater]

Again, youre literally lying and making things up.

Irving got injured in game 4 while the Nets were trailing near haftime. So they were already on pace for the series to be tied 2-2.


no learning curve for tpols ever. too much pride to admit he was wrong.

in the near future he will once more claim the nets were destroying the bucks before kyrie went down. just an incapable fan/analyst.

[FKAri]

Its crazy that you can actually analyze ball well yet at the same time make weird posts about white supremacists officials, Draymond Green/Sabonis, Giannis skin color, etc.

It's the human condition.