Bird vs Magic 80's

[colts19]

I see people all the time say Magic was the best player of the 80's. As someone who watched them both during that era, I don't understand how they come to that conclusion. I'll just point out that most people at that time thought Bird was the better player. What do I base that on?

Rookie of the year: Bird 63 votes Magic 3.
From 80 to 88, I don't count 89 because Bird missed the whole year.
1st place vote for MVP for those years. Bird 256 Magic 88
Total votes for MVP for those years. Bird 4221 Magic 2404.
Bird finished ahead of Magic for 8 of the 9 years.

So based on that, I think it's clear. Bird was the best player of the 80's.

[mr4speed]

I see people all the time say Magic was the best player of the 80's. As someone who watched them both during that era, I don't understand how they come to that conclusion. I'll just point out that most people at that time thought Bird was the better player. What do I base that on?

Rookie of the year: Bird 63 votes Magic 3.
From 80 to 88, I don't count 89 because Bird missed the whole year.
1st place vote for MVP for those years. Bird 256 Magic 88
Total votes for MVP for those years. Bird 4221 Magic 2404.
Bird finished ahead of Magic for 8 of the 9 years.

So based on that, I think it's clear. Bird was the best player of the 80's.

Saw your post and have to agree. And to put into perspective the MVP vote for each player for those first 9 years Bird was 4,2,2,2,1,1,1,3,and then 2. Magic was not on the list, then 11, 8, 3,3,2,3,1 and 3rd. Magic was not on the first team all NBA until his 4th season. I understand Magic was more popular but even lists today for some people's "top ten" have Magic at 3 or 4 and Bird at 8 or 9?? And Shaq has recently said Bird should be out of the top 10 and Kobe should replace him? Seems like Bird gets less and less respect as time passes IMO.

[ImKobe]

Magic had more success in the Playoffs.

[1987_Lakers]

Bird was the better player up until '87. You can make a great argument for Bird in '88 as well.

[iamgine]

I think they're about equal.

Here's how I'd rate their Playoff performance:

80 Magic
81 Bird
82 Magic
83 Bird
84 Bird
85 Magic (slightly)
86 Bird
87 Magic
88 Magic (slightly)
89 Magic
90 Magic
91 Magic

As you can see, they're about equal before Larry's bone spur injury in the 88-89 season

[kawhileonard2]

Bird was the better player up until '87. You can make a great argument for Bird in '88 as well.

Bird lost with HCA in 88

[mr4speed]

Bird lost with HCA in 88

Boston won 57 games in 88 and Detroit won 54. HCA is not that big a thing between such close teams. Detroit was hungry to avenge the previous year!

[kawhileonard2]

Boston won 57 games in 88 and Detroit won 54. HCA is not that big a thing between such close teams. Detroit was hungry to avenge the previous year!

HCA always matters in the top 5 all time debate.

[Pointguard]

I think they're about equal.

Here's how I'd rate their Playoff performance:

80 Magic
81 Bird
82 Magic
83 Bird
84 Bird
85 Magic (slightly)
86 Bird
87 Magic
88 Magic (slightly)
89 Magic
90 Magic
91 Magic

As you can see, they're about equal before Larry's bone spur injury in the 88-89 season
In Birds first 4 years he played bad in the post season, shot horribly, was turnover prone, and wasn't clutch. While Magic was FMVP in his first year, was super clutch, shot a lot better than Bird, was a better offensive rebounder despite being a guard. And this was all with Magic playing out of position. In '81 I give it to Bird despite the fact he wasn't proven in the playoffs yet and couldn't be counted on. His next four years were his years where when his play was stellar in the playoffs. But Magic had two great years during that four.

So the answer was the playoffs and clutch play.

[Pointguard]

Bird was the better player up until '87. You can make a great argument for Bird in '88 as well.
The first four years who was better in the post season?

[1987_Lakers]

The first four years who was better in the post season?

Magic didn't even make an All-NBA First Team until his 4th year in the league. Bird was First Team from his rookie year and on.

Not to mention Bird finished ahead of Magic in the MVP voting every year until 1987.

Easy to look good in the playoffs when you have guys like Kareem, Wilkes, Nixon, McAdoo etc. Those guys made Magic's life easier as a playmaker, he also didn't have to worry about scoring much considering he had weapons all over the court.

Not saying Bird didn't have talent because he did, but the Lakers were more talented than Boston throughout the 80's excluding '86.

Magic really peaked as a player in '87, that is when he developed more as a scorer. Improved his jump shot & was pretty damn good in the post.

[FKAri]

Because Bird declined earlier due to injuries and Magic had longer sustained success, people started ranking Magic ahead of Bird post retirement. Kids growing up grew up hearing Magic > Bird and it changed over time to Magic was just better than Bird. This is how history is rewritten. It's an important distinction imo, better player vs better career.

[Phoenix]

Bird lost with HCA in 88

As did Kawhi in 2020.

[Champ]

In Birds first 4 years he played bad in the post season, shot horribly, was turnover prone, and wasn't clutch. While Magic was FMVP in his first year, was super clutch, shot a lot better than Bird, was a better offensive rebounder despite being a guard. And this was all with Magic playing out of position. In '81 I give it to Bird despite the fact he wasn't proven in the playoffs yet and couldn't be counted on. His next four years were his years where when his play was stellar in the playoffs. But Magic had two great years during that four.

So the answer was the playoffs and clutch play.
Stop repeating the lie that Bird wasn't good in the '81 playoffs. He was the best all around postseason player that year and it wasn't really close. Singlehandedly willed his team passed a deeper and more talented Philly squad and came up big when it mattered most in the Finals

[colts19]

My point is only that as far as who was the better player in the 80's, Bird dominated the MVP voting and was clearly considered better than Magic by his contemporaries. As far as the 81 playoffs go, I watched them and Bird was outscored by Maxwell by 1.4 points per game. But Bird out-rebounded him 97 to 52, out-assisted him 42 to 17, and had more steals by 14 to 1. Bird was the best player.

[Phoenix]

Frankly, if you swapped the two I don't see Magic winning 5 with that Celtics squad nor do I see Bird 'only' winning 3 with the Lakers. Kareem between 80 and 86 on the block with Bird on the wings running a two man game would have broken the game in the 80's.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Magic was better at everything.

[mr4speed]

In Birds first 4 years he played bad in the post season, shot horribly, was turnover prone, and wasn't clutch. While Magic was FMVP in his first year, was super clutch, shot a lot better than Bird, was a better offensive rebounder despite being a guard. And this was all with Magic playing out of position. In '81 I give it to Bird despite the fact he wasn't proven in the playoffs yet and couldn't be counted on. His next four years were his years where when his play was stellar in the playoffs. But Magic had two great years during that four.

So the answer was the playoffs and clutch play.

Yes Bird had some bad games but also had some great moments - that 81 series vs the Sixers was incredible. Lets not forget that Bird was the primary focus and target for the opposing team's defense - not so with Magic. The 1980 FMVP was won by Kareem after Magic's great game 6 but because Kareem was not present the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would win the award. Magic in the 80 Finals also set a Finals record for turnovers in 6 games with 30. The very next year in 81 Magic was horrible in the deciding game 3 loss vs Houston. Magic shot 2 for 14 and 6 for 11 FT with 2 missed FT in the 4th quarter and on the last key possession shot an air ball. In the 83 Finals while Moses was outplaying Kareem and LA was being swept, Magic shot 40.3% and had 24 turnovers in those 4 games. My point is we can throw shade at both players. The West was the weaker conference and Magic did not have as demanding of a role as Bird and had a better supporting cast .

[Pointguard]

Yes Bird had some bad games but also had some great moments - that 81 series vs the Sixers was incredible. Lets not forget that Bird was the primary focus and target for the opposing team's defense - not so with Magic. The 1980 FMVP was won by Kareem after Magic's great game 6 but because Kareem was not present the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would win the award. But in fairness to Magic, he had moved into Kareem's position and had a game that Kareem never had in the finals when he was in his 9th year clearly as the best player in the league. When Kareem won the championship Oscar was the best player in the close out game as well. Magic's new inspiring play made this team better, more confident and more cohesive.




Magic in the 80 Finals also set a Finals record for turnovers in 6 games with 30. The very next year in 81 Magic was horrible in the deciding game 3 loss vs Houston. Magic shot 2 for 14 and 6 for 11 FT with 2 missed FT in the 4th quarter and on the last key possession shot an air ball. In the 83 Finals while Moses was outplaying Kareem and LA was being swept, Magic shot 40.3% and had 24 turnovers in those 4 games. My point is we can throw shade at both players. The West was the weaker conference and Magic did not have as demanding of a role as Bird and had a better supporting cast .
I don't care about the opposition. Either you play like a great or you don't in the playoffs. If you don't, can't say he'd played better than the guy who did. Very different if Bird had showed he was the man that made the big plays and won the big games but he wasn't that player for 4 years which is a long period of time. To say he was better than a guy who won 2 championships and 2 finals MVPs while he was still unproven is unfair. Even when Boston won it all he wasn't the best player in the first 4 years. Magic was involved nearly every big play. We all can pick bad games on ANY player - Bird had much more of those games than Magic in the PS. Even the great Jordan had bad games.

[Pointguard]

Stop repeating the lie that Bird wasn't good in the '81 playoffs. He was the best all around postseason player that year and it wasn't really close. Singlehandedly willed his team passed a deeper and more talented Philly squad and came up big when it mattered most in the Finals
Sorry, great players are expected to have great series. Can you name me a few others. One isn't cutting it. At that point its considered an abberation.

[Pointguard]

Magic didn't even make an All-NBA First Team until his 4th year in the league. Bird was First Team from his rookie year and on.

Not to mention Bird finished ahead of Magic in the MVP voting every year until 1987.

Easy to look good in the playoffs when you have guys like Kareem, Wilkes, Nixon, McAdoo etc. Those guys made Magic's life easier as a playmaker, he also didn't have to worry about scoring much considering he had weapons all over the court.

Not saying Bird didn't have talent because he did, but the Lakers were more talented than Boston throughout the 80's excluding '86.

Magic really peaked as a player in '87, that is when he developed more as a scorer. Improved his jump shot & was pretty damn good in the post.

I never said anything about the regular season. He wasn't going to get MVP votes because he wasn't a scorer. And most of the voters didn't understand his game or how he totally changed the game. His teams were crazy efficient. By today's standards he wins MVP easily in his 2nd year at PG. His team shot an all time great 545% from the field (555% from 2pt fg) and had a definitely better TS% than that great Golden State shooting team. He shot 637% TS himself and lead the league in assist and triple doubles. 4th in PER as a pure PG is unheard of at that time. All of his top 5 players were top 15 in 2 point FG%. He clearly outplays the MVP Bird in the finals where he should have won FMVP. He was at top level in 1985 but was great from the start. In '85 they weren't talking this stuff I am mentioning,

20 years later a far less impressive Nash beats out Kobe, Wade, Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, Garnett and Lebron two years straight.

[mr4speed]

But in fairness to Magic, he had moved into Kareem's position and had a game that Kareem never had in the finals when he was in his 9th year clearly as the best player in the league. When Kareem won the championship Oscar was the best player in the close out game as well. Magic's new inspiring play made this team better, more confident and more cohesive.


I don't care about the opposition. Either you play like a great or you don't in the playoffs. If you don't, can't say he'd played better than the guy who did. Very different if Bird had showed he was the man that made the big plays and won the big games but he wasn't that player for 4 years which is a long period of time. To say he was better than a guy who won 2 championships and 2 finals MVPs while he was still unproven is unfair. Even when Boston won it all he wasn't the best player in the first 4 years. Magic was involved nearly every big play. We all can pick bad games on ANY player - Bird had much more of those games than Magic in the PS. Even the great Jordan had bad games.

Kareem in the 1980 Finals was the best Laker. The voters chose Kareem after Magic's great game 6. What is often overlooked in that game is Jim Chones guarding Dawkins and holding Dawkins to 14 points and Jaamal Wilkes scoring his career high 37 points. I get that you like Magic, but even Magic offered to give the 80 FMVP award back to Kareem and Kareem told Magic it was ok for him to keep it.
You said Bird "wasn't that player for 4 years" ( to make big plays) - did you see Bird in the 81 post season? Celtics down 3 to 1 vs Sixers and Celtic players have said it was Bird's leadership that enabled them to win that series. In the final game 7 Bird was 23 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists and 5 steals and hit the game winning basket on a bank shot. This was Dr J's MVP season and head to head vs Dr J for the series Bird was 26.7 points, 13.4 rebounds 7.8 assists to Dr J at 19.9 points, 5.9 rebounds and 4.1 assists. Then in the 81 Finals please see game 6 in Houston especially the 4th quarter where Bird hit several clutch shots, one of which was a 3 pointer to put Rockets away for good. Bird was better overall than Maxwell in that series but Bird shunned the press and avoided any interviews and reporters and IMO the press was happy to pick Maxwell and the FMVP.

[Pointguard]

Kareem in the 1980 Finals was the best Laker. The voters chose Kareem after Magic's great game 6. What is often overlooked in that game is Jim Chones guarding Dawkins and holding Dawkins to 14 points and Jaamal Wilkes scoring his career high 37 points. I get that you like Magic, but even Magic offered to give the 80 FMVP award back to Kareem and Kareem told Magic it was ok for him to keep it.
You said Bird "wasn't that player for 4 years" ( to make big plays) - did you see Bird in the 81 post season? Celtics down 3 to 1 vs Sixers and Celtic players have said it was Bird's leadership that enabled them to win that series. In the final game 7 Bird was 23 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists and 5 steals and hit the game winning basket on a bank shot. This was Dr J's MVP season and head to head vs Dr J for the series Bird was 26.7 points, 13.4 rebounds 7.8 assists to Dr J at 19.9 points, 5.9 rebounds and 4.1 assists. Then in the 81 Finals please see game 6 in Houston especially the 4th quarter where Bird hit several clutch shots, one of which was a 3 pointer to put Rockets away for good. Bird was better overall than Maxwell in that series but Bird shunned the press and avoided any interviews and reporters and IMO the press was happy to pick Maxwell and the FMVP.

A great series and serval good games to add to it. Jame Harden, Anthony Davis, Jimmy Butler all have done this and they don't get compared to Lebron, Curry or Durant... rightfully so.

[Pointguard]

Kareem in the 1980 Finals was the best Laker. He was the best player in the league for like 11 years. He wasn't the best closeout player. He wasn't the best winner in big games. He didn't inspire his teammates. The most important player was Magic.


The voters chose Kareem after Magic's great game 6. What is often overlooked in that game is Jim Chones guarding Dawkins and holding Dawkins to 14 points and Jaamal Wilkes scoring his career high 37 points. I get that you like Magic, but even Magic offered to give the 80 FMVP award back to Kareem and Kareem told Magic it was ok for him to keep it.

Kareem was a jerk with Magic. Magic was trying to win him over and keep the peace. Laker administration had to step in.

[John8204]

Magic had the better teams but Bird was the better player. Magic only had one real MVP season during the 80's...Jordan, Barkley, and even John Stockton were doing incredible things during Magics last two MVP seasons

[mr4speed]

He was the best player in the league for like 11 years. He wasn't the best closeout player. He wasn't the best winner in big games. He didn't inspire his teammates. The most important player was Magic.

Kareem was a jerk with Magic. Magic was trying to win him over and keep the peace. Laker administration had to step in.

Kareem was not a close out player???? In the 85 Finals after his poor game 1 Kareem in the next 5 games put up a per game of 28.4 points, 10.2 rebounds and 6,0 assists on 61% shooting and was the reason LA beat Boston and was the FMVP.
If LA had won game 7 in 84 in Boston, Kareem would have been FMVP not Magic. In game 7 in 84 Kareem was 12 of 22 for 29 points and Magic was 5 of 14 for 16 points and had 7 turnovers!
Did you forget game 5 of the 80 Finals where Kareem sprained his ankle in the 3rd quarter and returned to lead LA to the win over Sixers and put in 40 points?
Also Kareem in the 71 Finals was clearly the FMVP and had a better overall final game 4 than Oscar. Oscar had 30 points, 3 rebounds and 9 assists to Kareem's 27 points 12 rebounds and 7 assists. And the year before in 1970 in the final game 5 clinching game vs the Sixers Kareem had 46 points and 25 rebounds. Maybe Kareem was aloof off the court but he was definitely great on the court.

[Pointguard]

Kareem was not a close out player???? In the 85 Finals after his poor game 1 Kareem in the next 5 games put up a per game of 28.4 points, 10.2 rebounds and 6,0 assists on 61% shooting and was the reason LA beat Boston and was the FMVP.

In the 10 years where Kareem was the best player in the league, he wasn't the best close out player. Its not a slight - he can't be everything. You tried to change up what I said. He did make clutch shots. But he wasn't the decision maker or creator, or floor manager in any year he won in. If Magic or Oscar fouled out those games would be loses. When Kareem didn't have them for like seven years he was light years better than the next player but not a close out player. Great for sure, just not everything.

You mention '85 when a team has all five of its offensive players top 15 in shooting percentage for the league its about the floor manager, creator and decision maker. The guy who sets the table and makes everything easier. They shot 55% from 2 point range as a team. You think that was about the individuals?

[GimmeThat]

I called the phone company, they said Magic Johnson doesn't exist

[bizil]

GOAT wise, Magic is clearly superior to Bird. Because GOAT status is your entire resume. And Magic's overall career resume is superior to Bird. Peak-prime wise, you could go either way. I'm not gonna argue if someone says Bird. BUT the fact Magic LEGIT played all five positions, is the GOAT passer, put the triple-double on the map in the modern era, and STILL has alpha dog scoring cred make me lean slightly to Magic. Magic is the GODFATHER of positionless basketball. Of course he redefined basketball being a 6'9 PG. BUT the Lakers were SMART ENOUGH to employ him at the other positions as well. WAYYYYY ahead of his time!! Positionless basketball DIDN'T become a catchphrase until the late 2010's pretty much. Magic was doing it in 1979-1980!

[Pointguard]

Magic had the better teams but Bird was the better player. Magic only had one real MVP season during the 80's...Jordan, Barkley, and even John Stockton were doing incredible things during Magics last two MVP seasons

You don't understand Magic's game. In 85' his team had a superior TS% than the great GS accurate shooting team. How does that happen? It was Magic. In '86 the Celtics were called the greatest passing team team ever yet offensively and assist wise they didn't compare any of Magics teams between '83 - '87. Magic consistently kept his team at a different level than Chicago, Philly and Utah. Before Magic got to the Lakers they weren't winning or functioning on that level either.

[mr4speed]

GOAT wise, Magic is clearly superior to Bird. Because GOAT status is your entire resume. And Magic's overall career resume is superior to Bird. Peak-prime wise, you could go either way. I'm not gonna argue if someone says Bird. BUT the fact Magic LEGIT played all five positions, is the GOAT passer, put the triple-double on the map in the modern era, and STILL has alpha dog scoring cred make me lean slightly to Magic. Magic is the GODFATHER of positionless basketball. Of course he redefined basketball being a 6'9 PG. BUT the Lakers were SMART ENOUGH to employ him at the other positions as well. WAYYYYY ahead of his time!! Positionless basketball DIDN'T become a catchphrase until the late 2010's pretty much. Magic was doing it in 1979-1980!

Magic may have a slightly better resume( as a player) but Bird was the better player. Lets look at how each team played and the results when Bird and Magic were on and off the court. In Magic's 2nd year he missed 45 games and played 37. In those 37 games LA won 26 and lost 11 = win% of 70.2%. Without Magic LA in the 45 games won 28 and lost 17 = win% of 62.2% = and 8 percent drop. Bird played 76 games in 88 and Boston won 55 and lost 21= win% of 72.3 and the next year Bird missed 76 games and Boston won 40 and lost 36 = win% of 52.6% = a drop of 19.7% so what team missed what player more? Boston missed Bird more.

[Pointguard]

Magic may have a slightly better resume( as a player) but Bird was the better player. Lets look at how each team played and the results when Bird and Magic were on and off the court. In Magic's 2nd year he missed 45 games and played 37. In those 37 games LA won 26 and lost 11 = win% of 70.2%. Without Magic LA in the 45 games won 28 and lost 17 = win% of 62.2% = and 8 percent drop. Bird played 76 games in 88 and Boston won 55 and lost 21= win% of 72.3 and the next year Bird missed 76 games and Boston won 40 and lost 36 = win% of 52.6% = a drop of 19.7% so what team missed what player more? Boston missed Bird more.

This is the problem with you guys on the Bird promotion tour. Birds greatness can't be based on the arguments that are being presented. Magic established his greatness before Bird did. He did great things as the opportunity afforded itself. True, Bird changed his team. Did he step up and carry his team? Was he the best player when they needed him? His averages weren't impressive for a great in the regular season or post season in the first 4 years. His shooting was average to mediocre. Magic had great series, and solid whole years, lead the league in categories in both seasons. Shot very well. Bird had a couple of great series not much else. Nothing really stands out for Bird as an individual in comparison. You guys keep giving Bird early years when that type of player gets no play today over a proven winner today. Bird's averages his first four years were very similar to a top regular season for Sabonis.

A great player does great things. There is no substitute for that.

[mr4speed]

This is the problem with you guys on the Bird promotion tour. Birds greatness can't be based on the arguments that are being presented. Magic established his greatness before Bird did. He did great things as the opportunity afforded itself. True, Bird changed his team. Did he step up and carry his team? Was he the best player when they needed him? His averages weren't impressive for a great in the regular season or post season in the first 4 years. His shooting was average to mediocre. Magic had great series, and solid whole years, lead the league in categories in both seasons. Shot very well. Bird had a couple of great series not much else. Nothing really stands out for Bird as an individual in comparison. You guys keep giving Bird early years when that type of player gets no play today over a proven winner today. Bird's averages his first four years were very similar to a top regular season for Sabonis.

A great player does great things. There is no substitute for that.

I disagree. Bird has legitimate arguments and Bird established his greatness before Magic. How? By being a big reason why Boston went from a 29 win team to a 61 win team and winning ROY. Again Magic had a phenomenal game 6 in the 80 Finals but Kareem was voted the FMVP after game 6. Bird in 81 led Boston back from a 3 to 1 deficit to win a 7 game series by outplaying Dr. J in Dr. J's MVP season, and Bird hit the game winning shot in game 7. Bird was the better overall player in the 81 Finals but got snubbed by a press that Bird avoided. Bird after the 81 season was on the cover of SI as "The NBA's Best All Around Player". Bird - like Kareem - was the focal point of the opposing teams defense. Magic did not get that defensive attention. In Magic's book "Touch" pages 74-76 regarding taking the last shot in a game "I was scared to go for it because for so many years I wasn't the guy. I wasn't used to those situations... to set up the offense and take the jump shot? No way. Kareem was the first option, Jaamal was second and Norm third. I just got crumbs but that was cool, that's all I wanted. But that attitude caught up with me in 1984 during the championship with Boston". That is Magic describing himself after 5 full seasons. Magic was not the alpha dog on his team and Bird was from day and year 1. For me , this is why I have Bird over Magic.

[Pointguard]

I disagree. Bird has legitimate arguments and Bird established his greatness before Magic. How?
In the first 4 years... .
One player had three national championships and was the main player on those championships. He beat Bird at the college level championship.
The other had one championship and wasn't the main player in the championship. That's a huge distinction. You still need help?

One player lead the league in assist one year, and steals twice and did it again in the playoffs. The other didn't lead the league in anything. Great players distinguish themselves from the pack in some way. What was Bird's distinguishing factor in the first four years. Magic was playing out of position the first four years but greatness has a way of standing out.

One shot noticably better than the other. One was noticably a better better offensive rebounder from the guard position.

There was a graphic before todays game speaking of Lebron's playoff production having fallen off and was his worst year but was similar to another great forward's career playoff numbers - it was Bird! Sobeit, Lebron's numbers were better than Bird's first four years.


Magic was not the alpha dog on his team and Bird was from day and year 1. For me , this is why I have Bird over Magic.
On the Knicks for three years the alpha dog was Julius Randle. Come playoff time he's not a good player. He's not near the player his PG is. Jalen Brunson is the better and the more important player.

[mr4speed]

In the first 4 years... .
One player had three national championships and was the main player on those championships. He beat Bird at the college level championship.
The other had one championship and wasn't the main player in the championship. That's a huge distinction. You still need help?

One player lead the league in assist one year, and steals twice and did it again in the playoffs. The other didn't lead the league in anything. Great players distinguish themselves from the pack in some way. What was Bird's distinguishing factor in the first four years. Magic was playing out of position the first four years but greatness has a way of standing out.

One shot noticably better than the other. One was noticably a better better offensive rebounder from the guard position.

There was a graphic before todays game speaking of Lebron's playoff production having fallen off and was his worst year but was similar to another great forward's career playoff numbers - it was Bird! Sobeit, Lebron's numbers were better than Bird's first four years.


On the Knicks for three years the alpha dog was Julius Randle. Come playoff time he's not a good player. He's not near the player his PG is. Jalen Brunson is the better and the more important player.

So now we are going to talk about Michigan State and Indiana State? Magic had 3 other teammates that saw an NBA roster in Greg Kelser ( played 7 seasons before the knee injury) Jay Vincent ( played 10 seasons for Dallas) and Ron Charles ( drafted by the Bulls in 1980). The MSU plan on defense was to double team Bird every time Bird touched the ball = it worked!
You are incorrect about Bird not leading in anything? Bird led the league in defensive win shares in 1980 and again in 1981. And regarding all forwards in the NBA, Bird in assists per game was 2nd, then 1st, 1st and 1st again in his first 4 years. Bird after leading Boston to a ring in 81 was regarded as the best passing forward to ever play, surpassing Rick Barry. Bird was on the all NBA team his first 9 years. Magic was not on the 2nd team all NBA until his 3rd season and was not on the 1st all NBA team until his 4th season. I get that Magic is your favorite player and that's cool, but Bird was better.

[tpols]

So now we are going to talk about Michigan State and Indiana State? Magic had 3 other teammates that saw an NBA roster in Greg Kelser ( played 7 seasons before the knee injury) Jay Vincent ( played 10 seasons for Dallas) and Ron Charles ( drafted by the Bulls in 1980). The MSU plan on defense was to double team Bird every time Bird touched the ball = it worked!


Great context.

I don't think Magic could've done what Bird did with those early 80s Celtics. Magic demanded playing with the Lakers and Kareem because he's a passer first and foremost and if you're passing and want to win you need elite help. Bird is a GOAT passer too but he's a much better scorer than Magic. He's tougher, clutcher, and more well rounded.

[Pointguard]

Great context.

I don't think Magic could've done what Bird did with those early 80s Celtics. Magic demanded playing with the Lakers and Kareem because he's a passer first and foremost and if you're passing and want to win you need elite help. Bird is a GOAT passer too but he's a much better scorer than Magic. He's tougher, clutcher, and more well rounded.

Clutcher is a big lie. Magic clutch shot makes were more plentiful in the playoffs and much more fantastic. If Bird was more well rounded and clutcher, why did Magic shoot so much better in the playoffs and win more often. Magic had one bad series in the playoffs and it got way over exaggerated. The only time Bird beat Magic was when Magic played subpar, Even in his only loss he was the determinant - not Bird. In the h2h games Magic was the better scorer as well if you include FG%. Magic also was a better offensive rebounder in the first four years from the shooting guard position. Magic had better judgment (which is why he shot better from the field), was a better leader, and dictated pace as good as any player ever.

[Pointguard]

So now we are going to talk about Michigan State and Indiana State? Magic had 3 other teammates that saw an NBA roster in Greg Kelser ( played 7 seasons before the knee injury) Jay Vincent ( played 10 seasons for Dallas) and Ron Charles ( drafted by the Bulls in 1980). The MSU plan on defense was to double team Bird every time Bird touched the ball = it worked!
You are incorrect about Bird not leading in anything? Bird led the league in defensive win shares in 1980 and again in 1981. And regarding all forwards in the NBA, Bird in assists per game was 2nd, then 1st, 1st and 1st again in his first 4 years. Bird after leading Boston to a ring in 81 was regarded as the best passing forward to ever play, surpassing Rick Barry. Bird was on the all NBA team his first 9 years. Magic was not on the 2nd team all NBA until his 3rd season and was not on the 1st all NBA team until his 4th season. I get that Magic is your favorite player and that's cool, but Bird was better.

Defensive win shares is cancelled out when you take the weaker cover. When Celtics played the Knicks he wasn't guarding Bernard King. McHale and Maxwell took the harder cover. And you can youtube it. Its criminal that Bird was getting defensive credit when Worthy would be way more efficient than Bird and Bird would still get defensive credit while guarding Kurt Rambis. Its totally a cheat to say Bird was top defender on those teams. Maxwell and McHale were better defensive forwards and DJ was a better defender as well.

Magic is not my favorite player. He was three years younger than Bird and adapted to the league quicker than Bird despite not playing his natural position.

[mr4speed]

Defensive win shares is cancelled out when you take the weaker cover. When Celtics played the Knicks he wasn't guarding Bernard King. McHale and Maxwell took the harder cover. And you can youtube it. Its criminal that Bird was getting defensive credit when Worthy would be way more efficient than Bird and Bird would still get defensive credit while guarding Kurt Rambis. Its totally a cheat to say Bird was top defender on those teams. Maxwell and McHale were better defensive forwards and DJ was a better defender as well.

Magic is not my favorite player. He was three years younger than Bird and adapted to the league quicker than Bird despite not playing his natural position.

Bird was on 3 all defense teams ( 2nd team) and Magic never was on an all defense team his entire career. Bird in 1983 finished tied for 3rd place for the DPOY award. Magic could not guard the quicker point guards and Norm Nixon took that defensive assignment. Byron Scoot and Cooper also were used to cover Magic's weakness on defense. See the thinking basketball "Greatest Peaks" series where Magic is placed 9th because of his poor defense. See Magic's book "My Life" pages 100-101 where Magic admits the zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the NBA and Magic needed special coaching. From Magic himself = " Before long I started to wonder, can I guard anyone in this league? My teammates were probably wondering the same thing".

[Hey Yo]

But in fairness to Magic, he had moved into Kareem's position and had a game that Kareem never had in the finals when he was in his 9th year clearly as the best player in the league. When Kareem won the championship Oscar was the best player in the close out game as well. Magic's new inspiring play made this team better, more confident and more cohesive.


I don't care about the opposition. Either you play like a great or you don't in the playoffs. If you don't, can't say he'd played better than the guy who did. Very different if Bird had showed he was the man that made the big plays and won the big games but he wasn't that player for 4 years which is a long period of time. To say he was better than a guy who won 2 championships and 2 finals MVPs while he was still unproven is unfair. Even when Boston won it all he wasn't the best player in the first 4 years. Magic was involved nearly every big play. We all can pick bad games on ANY player - Bird had much more of those games than Magic in the PS. Even the great Jordan had bad games.
Magic playing Center that game is a myth. He repped LA for the opening tip and that was his extent of playing Center.

Brent Musberger even says it right after the game was over "Magic starts at Center and finishes at Forward and Guard"