True or False: Philly would be better with prime Dwight instead of Joel Embiid

[Im Still Ballin]

Title.

I think they're a better team. Dwight's superior conditioning, motor, and durability are the primary reasons. I also think he's a more impactful defender and has a less disruptive offensive game. He would get more out of his teammates like he did with Jameer, Rashard, and Hedo. They would play faster and more together.

Thoughts?

[warriorfan]

Embiid is much more talented but prime Dwight had ironman availability that would probably give him the slight edge for me.

injuries suck, imagine the basketball we missed with brandon roy, derrick rose… ect. embiid not too that extent yet but it would be nice to see him be able to stay more healthy.

[tpols]

The spacing dynamic would be a tremendous change since prime Dwight played out of the deep post and required a double team or it was a dunk. Embiid otoh works from the outside in, so if you double him the defenders recovery distance is much shorter.

Dwight is also the superior defender, rebounder and athlete. I think they'd be way better. It doesn't make sense for a guy 7'2 to play outside in and hurt his perimeter teammates spacing. While always flopping and getting hurt.

[John8204]

I would say true because if you have Dwight you aren't signing Tobias Harris, and you are likely taking Ball over Fultz

C - Howard
PF - Simmons
SF - Butler
SG - Reddick
PG - Lonzo Ball

[PeroAntic]

It wouldn't make a difference because Harden is a bum and he already failed once with Dwight so as long as hes running the show its a lost cause.

[ImKobe]

Nope.

Embiid would have made it further than the 2nd round if he had the help that Dwight did in in '09. The Tobias Harris contract is really hurting the Sixers' depth.

They basically play 4 on 5 on offense as PJ Tucker rarely takes shots and his 2nd Harden can't score on a consistent basis either and they're paying another dude damn near 40 million to be a damn role player as well. Harris is an expiring next year so they'll finally be able to move on from him and get 2-3 solid role players for his expiring contract at the trade deadline.

Embiid wouldn't have to put up 33 points a game in the RS if he had a good team, his usage rate is way too high for a dude his size & with his injury history, which is why he breaks down & fatigues in the Playoffs.

If you put Dwight at his place in Philly you'd have to make up for a lot of the scoring that Embiid provides for you on the offensive end, and you lose spacing as well since Dwight was only limited to 10 ft as a scorer. You improve on D but you don't have a go-to scorer you can rely on in the POs and Dwight would be unplayable offensively down the stretch of close games due to his poor FT shooting ability.

[Carbine]

The spacing dynamic would be a tremendous change since prime Dwight played out of the deep post and required a double team or it was a dunk. Embiid otoh works from the outside in, so if you double him the defenders recovery distance is much shorter.

Dwight is also the superior defender, rebounder and athlete. I think they'd be way better. It doesn't make sense for a guy 7'2 to play outside in and hurt his perimeter teammates spacing. While always flopping and getting hurt.

Dwight was not a great post up player or offensive player in general. Revisionist history at its finest

[Jasper]

in his prime Howard , owned the backboard as well as interior defense.
his jump hook and out let pass are far more superior than Joel's .

[tpols]

Dwight was not a great post up player or offensive player in general. Revisionist history at its finest

You must not have been old enough to see prime Magic Dwight.


https://youtu.be/7EvPtggzPtY

He was unstoppable in single coverage on the low block.

[red1]

embiid is better.



dwight was trash. got completely outplayed by gasol.



his only achievement was feasting on old-ass Z en route to the finals that 1 year in 2009.

[red1]

dwight has the obvious major advantage of health

[hateraid]

Philly would win with prime Harden over current Harden

[Im Still Ballin]

Nope.

Embiid would have made it further than the 2nd round if he had the help that Dwight did in in '09. The Tobias Harris contract is really hurting the Sixers' depth.

They basically play 4 on 5 on offense as PJ Tucker rarely takes shots and his 2nd Harden can't score on a consistent basis either and they're paying another dude damn near 40 million to be a damn role player as well. Harris is an expiring next year so they'll finally be able to move on from him and get 2-3 solid role players for his expiring contract at the trade deadline.

Embiid wouldn't have to put up 33 points a game in the RS if he had a good team, his usage rate is way too high for a dude his size & with his injury history, which is why he breaks down & fatigues in the Playoffs.

If you put Dwight at his place in Philly you'd have to make up for a lot of the scoring that Embiid provides for you on the offensive end, and you lose spacing as well since Dwight was only limited to 10 ft as a scorer. You improve on D but you don't have a go-to scorer you can rely on in the POs and Dwight would be unplayable offensively down the stretch of close games due to his poor FT shooting ability.

I have to disagree, bro.

I rate Maxey, Harden, and Harris over Lewis, Turkoglu, and Nelson.

I'm not sure Embiid gets past Boston let alone Cleveland in 2009. The Celtics, even without Garnett, were a 59-win-pace team over 25 regular season games. They went 18-7 and nearly made it to the ECF. Let's not forget that Orlando was missing its all-star PG Jameer Nelson for half of the regular season and all of the Eastern Conference playoff run.

People try to always discredit Dwight for that postseason run, but it was certified FRESH. He beat a "59-win team" and a 66-win team, then put up a tough fight against a 65-win team. That NBA Finals series went five but included multiple overtime games. It could've easily gone 6 or 7.

I disagree with the "he had to put up 33 PPG" angle because "he had a bad team." There's a degree of friction between Embiid and Harden's games. Embiid takes that many shots because he wants to. It's how he likes to play the game. Lesser players have gotten more out of teammates than he has.

I disagree about the last paragraph. Those points would just be redistributed among the other players. Dwight would 21-25 PPG of it on 63 to 68% TS. Anyways, it's a bad way to analyze the game; you don't add or take points - possessions are redistributed.

I thought you of all people would understand this. You know, LeBron ball? Kevin Love and Chris Bosh being reduced to role players.

I also disagree with "Dwight only being able to score inside 10 feet and losing spacing being an issue." The team would adapt its game plan and lineups to match its personnel. The spacing wasn't an issue for Orlando and it won't be an issue for Philadelphia.

And besides, why is a big "only being able to score inside 10 feet" a problem? Seems rather arbitrary. It wasn't an issue for Shaq and Giannis, and it wasn't one for Dwight. A big man dominating the paint. Since when is that a problem?

The free-throw issues and "not being a go-to player" are arbitrary as well. Shaq, Giannis, and Dwight all found success despite these faults.


Dwight was not a great post up player or offensive player in general. Revisionist history at its finest

Going to have to disagree with you here, bro. Since when does putting up 18-23 PPG on 57-61% FG and 60-63% TS make you a bad player? Mind you, those numbers were from 2008-2012 when 2pt% was almost 7% lower and TS% was 4%+ lower.

If you adjust Prime Dwight's numbers for today's averages and pace, he'd be doing like 21-25 PPG on 64-68% FG and 64-67% TS.

Dwight was a great offensive player in his prime. He just wasn't skilled. It wasn't pretty, but you don't get extra points for style. Power players and finishers get underrated; finesse players and creators get overrated.

Regarding the specifics of Dwight's post-up game. Like Shaq, his value came from his ability to get deep, within five feet of the basket. Also like Shaq, he had a season or two where he had okay range in the paint, outside of the restricted area. Both were around 45% on those shots.

But the value of their post-up games came largely from their ability to get close to the basket. This is still post-up play, although a lot of people for some reason think that it's not. Once again, goes back to my whole point about power players being underrated and finesse being overrated. No extra points for flash.

Dwight and Shaq could get five feet from the basket more frequently because of their unique combination of size and athleticism.

Dwight had a 9'3.5" standing reach, was 280 pounds at his peak, and had a 39" vertical jump. Shaq's standing reach was 9'5", was anywhere from 300-340 pounds in best condition, and had a vertical ranging from 36" to probably 30". He came into the league 303 pounds with a 36" vertical. I doubt Embiid can even jump 30 inches high.

Dwight was a strong post-up player in his prime. It just wasn't pretty. You'd also be surprised to find that Dwight's number of field goals assisted was actually lower than a lot of bigs from his era.

Dwight from 2008-2012: 55.6% of 2pt FGs assisted

Include only his three best seasons (09, 10, and 11) and the number is 51.5%. Gets as low as 49.6% in 2010.

Duncan from 1998-2003: 52.5% of 2pt FGs assisted
Garnett from 2000-2007: 63.1% of 2pt FGs assisted
Amar'e from 2005-2011: 60.9% of 2pt FGs assisted
Yao from 2004-2009: 63.4% of 2pt FGs assisted

This notion that prime Dwight was bird-fed easy baskets is incorrect. Should he have embraced the pick-and-roll more? Sure. But that was true for the entire league. Some of those unassisted FGs are coming from putbacks, but you'll be surprised at how often Dwight played out of the post from 2008-2012.

It just wasn't pretty - but it was effective.


You must not have been old enough to see prime Magic Dwight.


https://youtu.be/7EvPtggzPtY

He was unstoppable in single coverage on the low block.

This guy knows. It was ugly but it was effective bully ball. Minimal range but his 9'3.5" standing reach, 280-pound frame, and 39" vertical allowed him to get within five feet of the basket frequently.

[Im Still Ballin]

Imagine if prime Diesel Dwight had James Harden.

Imagine.

[90sgoat]

Embiid has all the tools, but can't get it done.

He's not easy to root for with all the flopping.

[Carbine]

You must not have been old enough to see prime Magic Dwight.


https://youtu.be/7EvPtggzPtY

He was unstoppable in single coverage on the low block.

I lived through Howard's entire career and knew what I was watching. I wasn't 6 years old watching Dwight in other words.

He was great at finishing. Legit all time great. But to say he was a guy you play through in the post, or was a dominant post offensive player it just wasn't the case. Nobody said that during his time, if anything it was the opposite - fans wanting MORE from him post up game.

He got his points off offensive rebounds, running the floor and dump offs.

I'm not saying he wasn't an overall dominant player, but an "unstoppable" post offensive player he was not.

[Carbine]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?124738-How-good-will-Dwight-Howard-be-in-his-prime-if-he-s-not-already-in-it-now/page1

There are plenty of posts in here saying Dwight is not very skilled on offense.

"If he learns a basic right book"

Lol

This was in 2008, he didn't get much better than this. Like I said, revisionist history at its finest.

[ArbitraryWater]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?124738-How-good-will-Dwight-Howard-be-in-his-prime-if-he-s-not-already-in-it-now/page1

There are plenty of posts in here saying Dwight is not very skilled on offense.

"If he learns a basic right book"

Lol

This was in 2008, he didn't get much better than this. Like I said, revisionist history at its finest.

yea


https://i.gyazo.com/32836d42067907703784d8d8df9eb73e.png

[HighFlyer23]

Philly would win with prime Harden over current Harden

This

Embiid really hasn't had the impact Harden has had in the current series against Boston

[Wally450]

In today's NBA, probably not.

[Im Still Ballin]

This video is a good representation of how Dwight's post-up game looked at its best. Notice how he rarely makes a shot further than five feet. How his strength and athleticism allow him to get high-percentage looks close to the basket. Whether that was backing down a guy or facing up and blowing by him. It wasn't pretty; people wouldn't call it skilled, but it was effective.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-s9vfrpOM0

Was he a great post-up player? I'm not sure; I'd have to see Synergy numbers. But anyone saying he was bad is just flat-out wrong. He was, at worst, a good pivot threat.