Okay, another Kevin Durant year goes by, another failed run in the books...let's talk

[ArbitraryWater]

Another loss as favorite on a stacked team, beaten by a less talented but superior branded squad.

Probably would have been b2b first round exits had Leonard not gotten injured.

Won 2 playoff series since after 2018.

Another super pathetic showing in an eimination game, stat-masked by going off when the game was over. 2/11 at haftime down 30, then going 6/8 in the 2nd half with the game never going back to a 20 point game. Mister Unreliabe, still all these years later.

How many more excuses will he get? Media ranking him highly, players talking him up... he needs to entirely prove himself all over again. He has never done JACK SHIT outside of the GSW safe haven basketball utopyia.



Where is his legacy going? I dont rate him highly at all.

[John8204]

Now...at best he's George Gervin Isiah Thomas level at worst Carmello Anthony.

He's already fallen below Giannis and Chris Paul...I don't see how I could even rank him ahead those guys.

Jimmy Butler and Kwahi Leonard you have a conversation to put them above him

Jokic and Doncic will likely pass him

Jumping teams and winning isn't a good look, but jumping teams and losing is catastrophic

2 Rings, 2 FMVP's, and 30K points that's not the resume that it once was and certainly not within the context of the talent he played with.

[ArbitraryWater]

Now...at best he's George Gervin Isiah Thomas level at worst Carmello Anthony.

He's already fallen below Giannis and Chris Paul...I don't see how I could even rank him ahead those guys.

Jimmy Butler and Kwahi Leonard you have a conversation to put them above him

Jokic and Doncic will likely pass him

Jumping teams and winning isn't a good look, but jumping teams and losing is catastrophic

2 Rings, 2 FMVP's, and 30K points that's not the resume that it once was and certainly not within the context of the talent he played with.


Are you trolling? Why are you completely excaggerating?

[Indian guy]

Regular 29 ppg 56% FG 68% TS
Playoffs 29 ppg 48% FG 60% TS

That's always been the issue with KD. His ridiculous efficiency rarely ever translates from regular season to playoffs barring those GS years, 1 season in OKC and 1 in BK. The extra physicality and game-planning of the playoffs always seems to expose a couple of holes in his game. He also lacks certain intangibles where it makes it difficult to win with him as your 'leader'.

[ArbitraryWater]

He averaged 29 ppg on 56% FG and 68% TS during the regular season. Was untouchable as a scorer. In the playoffs he averaged 29 ppg on 48% FG and 60% TS. That's always been the issue with KD. His ridiculous efficiency rarely ever translates from regular season to playoffs barring those GS years, 1 season in OKC and 1 in BK. The extra physicality and game-planning of the playoffs always seems to give him trouble.

and thats with in almost every game adding points in 4th quarters when the game is over.

Or tonight, the 2nd half when down 30. He already went 1/12 in the first half lol, it was over then and there.

[DMAVS41]

He was awful last night from the tip. The stats don't even do it justice. He missed wide open shooters early on, missed shots, forced up bad shots, and turned it over...his defense was also shit.

Kevin Durant as the leader of a team has proven so little compared to the guys half of the people here claim he's better than. He does not get the most out of his teammates...my god, just a few years ago people were questioning if Klay/Steph/Dray had declined too much and if Durant could win with him. That is what he does to his teammates...he plays a disconnected offensive gunner game that does not bring the best out of his team. It is all designed for him to get 30 on solid efficiency...been saying this for years.

Think about that though...people were arguing that Steph just wasn't that good anymore...5 ****ing years ago...and look at what he's still doing now...Steph gets lost in these conversations of best players...but he's about as impactful as anyone not named Jokic so far. He still has an argument for most valuable player in the league or best...etc.

As it stands now, until Durant actually does something noteworthy...he is one of the most over-rated players in NBA history.

[Phoenix]

Are you trolling? Why are you completely excaggerating?

You'd be better served putting that poster on ignore. I feel my IQ drop several points every time he posts about rankings.

[FultzNationRISE]

Regular 29 ppg 56% FG 68% TS
Playoffs 29 ppg 48% FG 60% TS

That's always been the issue with KD. His ridiculous efficiency rarely ever translates from regular season to playoffs barring those GS years, 1 season in OKC and 1 in BK. The extra physicality and game-planning of the playoffs always seems to expose a couple of holes in his game. He also lacks certain intangibles where it makes it difficult to win with him as your 'leader'.


^ Very well summed up.

[Jasper]

I will join the hate thread :

Lets see stacked team : no bench / booker and him supposed to take out a top tier team.
lmfao
Even if they had antique CP3 and their 5 , still would not be enough.

Some of you guys act like a super star is a super hero... get your heads out your comic books.
/

[DMAVS41]

I will join the hate thread :

Lets see stacked team : no bench / booker and him supposed to take out a top tier team.
lmfao
Even if they had antique CP3 and their 5 , still would not be enough.

Some of you guys act like a super star is a super hero... get your heads out your comic books.
/

We all agree the Nuggets were better. However, the series was tied 2-2 and at halftime of game 5 it was a 3 point game. It is, of course, reasonable to lose this series. That isn't the point.

The point is...if you want to rightfully go down in NBA history you have to accomplish hard things. Durant, the supposed 12th best player ever or whatever...can't do better in a close road game than shoot 10-24 and turn it over a bunch? He can't get his team competitive in the biggest game at home of the year?

He can't close out a 3-1 series lead against the Warriors in 16...a game in which his team was so good that they had a lead with 5 minutes left despite him being way off.

If the response is always...KD needs more help, he's not capable of doing really hard an amazing things like Duncan beating Shaq/Kobe...etc...he needs a loaded team to win...and even then he needed a big time injury to CP3 in 18 or they almost for sure would have lost. If that is the answer...maybe he's just not as good as everyone says.

Expectations seem awfully low.

Just take Jokic, for example, think of all the hate this guy has gotten over the last couple years...despite playing amazing and rightfully winning 2 MVP's...also played great in the playoffs with an injury riddled team that wasn't even that good. If the Nuggets make the finals this year...don't even have to win it...Jokic has essentially accomplished as much as Durant has for his career. The only difference is that Jokic isn't likely to join a dynasty level team without him and win a couple easy rings.

If that happens...why again is Kevin Durant a better all-time player than Jokic? The answer will be...there is no valid reason....the honest answer will simply be that Durant joined the Warriors and has played a little longer...but has accomplished nothing more in those years.

[Phoenix]

I will join the hate thread :

Lets see stacked team : no bench / booker and him supposed to take out a top tier team.
lmfao
Even if they had antique CP3 and their 5 , still would not be enough.

Some of you guys act like a super star is a super hero... get your heads out your comic books.
/

He and Booker went off for 47/39 points in game 3 to win. They also won game 4 with Jokic going off for 53. It wasn't out of the realm for them to take this series. Obviously you can't rely on that to win 4 games, but last night facing elimination wasn't the time to go the opposite direction and go 8-19( and Booker 4-13) while Joker is going 32/12/12. He alone practically matched KD/Booker's scoring volume on exponentially higher %.

[SouBeachTalents]

Indian Guy already addressed this, but the way his efficiency has consistently nosedived in the playoffs, outside of Golden State of course, is pretty remarkable. I understand the majority of players probably do see some kind of drop in efficiency in the postseason, but this has been the theme of KD's career. He's a career 62%TS shooter in the regular season, that gets upped to 63%TS if you remove the first 2 years of his career before he became All-NBA caliber. And this is how he's done in most of his playoff defeats, and it's not just the shooting that becomes more inefficient, his turnovers usually dial up too.

2011 WCF: 55%TS, 4 TO per game
2013 WCSF: 53%TS, 4.5 TO per game
2014 WCF: 56%TS, 3.3 TO per game
2016 WCF: 54%TS, 3.5 TO per game
2022 FR: 53%TS, 5 TO per game
2023 WCSF: 55%TS, 4 TO per game

And he wasn't even the best player on his team, certainly in this series, but arguably in the '14 & '16 WCF as well. For me, it's not even the fact that he didn't win titles in these seasons, it's that his level of play was not as good as his regular season standards.

[Goldrush25]

Another loss as favorite on a stacked team, beaten by a less talented but superior branded squad.

Probably would have been b2b first round exits had Leonard not gotten injured.

Won 2 playoff series since after 2018.

Another super pathetic showing in an eimination game, stat-masked by going off when the game was over. 2/11 at haftime down 30, then going 6/8 in the 2nd half with the game never going back to a 20 point game. Mister Unreliabe, still all these years later.

How many more excuses will he get? Media ranking him highly, players talking him up... he needs to entirely prove himself all over again. He has never done JACK SHIT outside of the GSW safe haven basketball utopyia.



Where is his legacy going? I dont rate him highly at all.

He lost to a more talented team, just less top-heavy.

[Kblaze8855]

How many more excuses will he get? Media ranking him highly, players talking him up... he needs to entirely prove himself all over again.


When you acknowledge the media and basketball people rank him highly…who do you think he needs to prove himself to?

Twitter?

[ArbitraryWater]

When you acknowledge the media and basketball people rank him highly…who do you think he needs to prove himself to?

Twitter?

A just narrative? The truth?


People who are overwhelmingly turning on him and so is public perception?


inb4 "KD is a 2x champ and 2x FMVP and in 30 years no one else will even..."

[Kblaze8855]

Prove himself to the truth? To justice?

Let me ask once more….

When you believe he has the backing of basketball people and the people who cover it….

Who does he need to prove himself to?

The least knowledgeable and invested group left?

He’s a basketball junkie. I think you and I are the lowest on the totem pole of who he wants respect from. He’s a “real hoppers know” advocate I’m sure.


What do you even want to prove he isn’t?

What do people suggest he is…that he “needs” to prove to you?

[ArbitraryWater]

Prove himself to the truth? To justice?

Let me ask once more….

When you believe he has the backing of basketball people and the people who cover it….

Who does he need to prove himself to?

The least knowledgeable and invested group left?

He’s a basketball junkie. I think you and I are the lowest on the totem pole of who he wants respect from. He’s a “real hoppers know” advocate I’m sure.


What do you even want to prove he isn’t?

What do people suggest he is…that he “needs” to prove to you?

says who? You?

Either way, this entire argument is useless. So you think public vote / perception doesnt matter. Okay cool.

At the end of the day these are negative outings for him, and theyre all gonna be taken into any reasonable account of him as a player and his career.

You can dumb it down with your "hes a 2 time champion, 2 time FMVP, everyone loses" yada yada takes, but details matter.

If you want to discredit those details because you think the group using them is inconvincing or even irrelevant, go ahead. I could not care less for that argument though.

[iamgine]

KD's a great player, just not as great as people expect him to be.

Just like other stars, he needs help in order to play well and win.

Phoenix Suns had no depth in the first place, which force him to play way too many minutes. And then they lost their starting PG and C.

That team is not stacked at all.

[tpols]

Regular 29 ppg 56% FG 68% TS
Playoffs 29 ppg 48% FG 60% TS

That's always been the issue with KD. His ridiculous efficiency rarely ever translates from regular season to playoffs barring those GS years, 1 season in OKC and 1 in BK. The extra physicality and game-planning of the playoffs always seems to expose a couple of holes in his game. He also lacks certain intangibles where it makes it difficult to win with him as your 'leader'.

48%FG and 60TS is great efficiency though.

Durant problem isn't scoring efficiency it's that he's weak as a leader. His intangibles are weak. He doesn't put fear in the opponent and he doesn't rally the troops with any type of charisma. When it comes to winning that stuff matters a ton.

[tpols]

Prove himself to the truth? To justice?

Let me ask once more….

When you believe he has the backing of basketball people and the people who cover it….

Who does he need to prove himself to?

The least knowledgeable and invested group left?

He’s a basketball junkie. I think you and I are the lowest on the totem pole of who he wants respect from. He’s a “real hoppers know” advocate I’m sure.


What do you even want to prove he isn’t?

What do people suggest he is…that he “needs” to prove to you?

His Twitter record says otherwise.

He absolutely let's nobodies get in his head.

[ArbitraryWater]

KD's a great player, just not as great as people expect him to be.

Just like other stars, he needs help in order to play well and win.

Phoenix Suns had no depth in the first place, which force him to play way too many minutes. And then they lost their starting PG and C.

That team is not stacked at all.


Durant, Booker, Paul, Ayton, Warren, Ross, Payne, Shamet is not stacked?

[tpols]

Durant, Booker, Paul, Ayton, Warren, Ross, Payne, Shamet is not stacked?

Paul and Ayton quit.

Ross, Payne and shamet is stacked?

:facepalm

[Phoenix]

48%FG and 60TS is great efficiency though.

Durant problem isn't scoring efficiency it's that he's weak as a leader. His intangibles are weak. He doesn't put fear in the opponent and he doesn't rally the troops with any type of charisma. When it comes to winning that stuff matters a ton.

Makes you wonder how Kawhi managed to win in 2019 because everything you said about KD applies to him. Mind you, if KD played that series and Klay doesn't get injured halfway through the end result is likely different.

[SouBeachTalents]

Makes you wonder how Kawhi managed to win in 2019 because everything you said about KD applies to him. Mind you, if KD played that series and Klay doesn't get injured halfway through the end result is likely different.
I feel like Kawhi's game is more resilient in the playoffs than KD's. Outside of that atrocious Game 7 against Denver, he's honestly been great in the playoffs since 2017, and even with the endless amount of injuries has enough of a sample size where you could make a reasonable evaluation. Over 62 games, he's averaged 30/9/5 on a blistering 64%TS.

So while I completely agree Kawhi lacks all the leadership & intangibles that KD does, he's been more consistent in the playoffs than KD has.

[tpols]

Makes you wonder how Kawhi managed to win in 2019 because everything you said about KD applies to him. Mind you, if KD played that series and Klay doesn't get injured halfway through the end result is likely different.

Kawhi has far more balls than KD and he's physically much stronger. Durant wouldn't have made it out that sixers series with Jimmy butler on his ass and given the unreal performance from kawhi that it took to barely win by an inch.

[sbw19]

He had a pedestrian series. Battled health and fitness issues prior. Excellent before that.

Traded to new team that gave up plenty to get him mid-season, and injuries and lack of depth further exposed their deficiencies vs a well-established and balanced team.

Part of the loss is on him, but it's pretty apparent from the get-go this team just wasn't gonna go far without their main cogs healthy and they weren't.

[Phoenix]

I feel like Kawhi's game is more resilient in the playoffs than KD's. Outside of that atrocious Game 7 against Denver, he's honestly been great in the playoffs since 2017, and even with the endless amount of injuries has enough of a sample size where you could make a reasonable evaluation. Over 62 games, he's averaged 30/9/5 on a blistering 64%TS.

So while I completely agree Kawhi lacks all the leadership & intangibles that KD does, he's been more consistent in the playoffs than KD has.

Agree...


Kawhi has far more balls than KD and he's physically much stronger. Durant wouldn't have made it out that sixers series with Jimmy butler on his ass and given the unreal performance from kawhi that it took to barely win by an inch.

And agree. Kawhi is physically stronger and less prone to being affected by more phyiscal playoff basketball. Boston was physical with KD last year and we saw how that series went.

[hold this L]

Makes you wonder how Kawhi managed to win in 2019 because everything you said about KD applies to him. Mind you, if KD played that series and Klay doesn't get injured halfway through the end result is likely different.
Lowry even though he's a massive c*nt, is a great leader. And yeah, they had 2/3 best players from the Warriors in that series (Dray is usually the 3rd, but Klay had it in the finals while Dray was kind of underwhelming) go down. With the Spurs, he played with one of the 3 best leaders in NBA history.

[ArbitraryWater]

Paul and Ayton quit.

Ross, Payne and shamet is stacked?

:facepalm

when depth is the only argument against stackedness but their depth is fine, theyre stacked.

[bdonovan]

You won't find the answer to this question by copy/pasting publicly available statistics.

His greatness is not impaired by dropping a few points in TS% in the postseason compared to the regular season.

Further it entirely misses the point of measuring greatness by applying a narrow measure of efficiency. For thinking more broadly about a player's impact on the game, I strongly recommend the book "Thinking Basketball" by Ben Taylor, particularly his take on global impact of a player. You'll start to understand why teams led by Curry, LeBron, Giannis tend to win, and all-stars some of you are fanatical over don't win.

One element of global impact is a player's contribution to team defense; there are no statistics that capture this effectively so you have to watch the game. I've distilled key examples that show how Durant breaks his own team's defense:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511742-Durant-s-defense-cost-the-Suns

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511502-Suns-Defensive-Missteps-in-Game-2-Durant-in-Particular

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511447-Why-Durant-and-the-Suns-lost

Watch the video and examples to understand why Durant's teams struggle with defense.

Durant will keep attracting legions of casuals and selling sneakers because he does what fans pay to watch - have impressive drives to the basket. In the end, his shortcomings in the team aspect of the game (offense as well as defense; team offense entails setting screens for teammates, movement off the ball, commitment on each play whereas durant takes plays off and forces his team to go 4 on 5 vs the opposition), nullify his offensive performance. He won't win. Not without joining a team that can win without him.

[ArbitraryWater]

You won't find the answer to this question by copy/pasting publicly available statistics.

His greatness is not impaired by dropping a few points in TS% in the postseason compared to the regular season.

Further it entirely misses the point of measuring greatness by applying a narrow measure of efficiency. For thinking more broadly about a player's impact on the game, I strongly recommend the book "Thinking Basketball" by Ben Taylor, particularly his take on global impact of a player. You'll start to understand why teams led by Curry, LeBron, Giannis tend to win, and all-stars some of you are fanatical over don't win.

One element of global impact is a player's contribution to team defense; there are no statistics that capture this effectively so you have to watch the game. I've distilled key examples that show how Durant breaks his own team's defense:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511742-Durant-s-defense-cost-the-Suns

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511502-Suns-Defensive-Missteps-in-Game-2-Durant-in-Particular

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511447-Why-Durant-and-the-Suns-lost

Watch the video and examples to understand why Durant's teams struggle with defense.

Durant will keep attracting legions of casuals and selling sneakers because he does what fans pay to watch - have impressive drives to the basket. In the end, his shortcomings in the team aspect of the game (offense as well as defense; team offense entails setting screens for teammates, movement off the ball, commitment on each play whereas durant takes plays off and forces his team to go 4 on 5 vs the opposition), nullify his offensive performance. He won't win. Not without joining a team that can win without him.


Spot on.

[8Ball]

Another loss as favorite on a stacked team, beaten by a less talented but superior branded squad.

Probably would have been b2b first round exits had Leonard not gotten injured.

Won 2 playoff series since after 2018.

Another super pathetic showing in an eimination game, stat-masked by going off when the game was over. 2/11 at haftime down 30, then going 6/8 in the 2nd half with the game never going back to a 20 point game. Mister Unreliabe, still all these years later.

How many more excuses will he get? Media ranking him highly, players talking him up... he needs to entirely prove himself all over again. He has never done JACK SHIT outside of the GSW safe haven basketball utopyia.



Where is his legacy going? I dont rate him highly at all.

Kevin Durant's problem was playing during LeBron's era.


The media propped him up to be LeBron's equal and it never happened. Iso scorers can never be put on Bron's level.


Even in golden state the everyone considered Bron the better player and Durant was a bitch that joined a 73 win team. His teammate Draymond all but confirmed it.

[Naero]

I will join the hate thread :

Lets see stacked team : no bench / booker and him supposed to take out a top tier team.
lmfao
Even if they had antique CP3 and their 5 , still would not be enough.

Some of you guys act like a super star is a super hero... get your heads out your comic books.
/

I don't think people are penalizing Durant harshly for this loss itself. The bigger problem is the rest of his legacy, which is still incomplete.

Fair or not, he needs to lead a non-Olympian team to a championship to cement his career. Until then, his legacy is still being written, and losses like this will hurt it—if only because they're blown opportunities. He lost with several title-contending teams outside of Golden State throughout his career—often underpeforming in the process—and people will that against him until he cashes in on one of those opportunities.

Even this series was fairly winnable, and the Suns probably would've copped at least one more win (namely Game 2) if Durant shot better. Was it a tall task? Perhaps, but most legends have accomplished even harder feats at one point or another; it shouldn't be an overstretch for him to do it as well if he truly deserves comparisons to them.

The closest he came to that was in 2021, when he was a toe away from beating the eventual champions with an injury-ravaged supporting cast. I don't think KD gets enough credit for that, and it rarely seems to get mentioned in discussions like this. Years like that prove he is at least capable of leading non-superteams to a title.

There's a fine line between proving it's doable and actually doing it, however. If something like that actually materializes, people may recontextualize his two rings; otherwise, they'll (not so unreasonably) credit the Warriors for the fact that he's not in the conversation for the best ringless player of all time.

[tontoz]

Even this series was fairly winnable, and the Suns probably would've copped at least one more win (namely Game 2) if Durant shot better.

This series was not fairly winnable. Their two wins were both tight games at home when Booker shot 80% from the field. Every loss was double digits.

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't think people are penalizing Durant harshly for this loss itself. The bigger problem is the rest of his legacy, which is still incomplete.

Fair or not, he needs to lead a non-Olympian team to a championship to cement his career. Until then, his legacy is still being written, and losses like this will hurt it—if only because they're blown opportunities. He lost with several title-contending teams outside of Golden State throughout his career—often underpeforming in the process—and people will that against him until he cashes in on one of those opportunities.

Even this series was fairly winnable, and the Suns probably would've copped at least one more win (namely Game 2) if Durant shot better. Was it a tall task? Perhaps, but most legends have accomplished even harder feats at one point or another; it shouldn't be an overstretch for him to do it as well if he truly deserves comparisons to them.

The closest he came to that was in 2021, when he was a toe away from beating the eventual champions with an injury-ravaged supporting cast. I don't think KD gets enough credit for that, and it rarely seems to get mentioned in discussions like this. Years like that prove he is at least capable of leading non-superteams to a title.

There's a fine line between proving it's doable and actually doing it, however. If something like that actually materializes, people may recontextualize his two rings; otherwise, they'll (not so unreasonably) credit the Warriors for the fact that he's not in the conversation for the best ringless player of all time.
I don't think anyone actually disputes that. Despite his flaws, KD is, at worst, one of the 20-25 best players in the history of the league. And he did get very unlucky in 2021 that both Harden AND Kyrie got hurt, and that his toe was on the line on what would've been the series winner. For all the times he never quite played up to his potential, he was absolutely out of his mind that series, that was some of the most impressive basketball I've watched.

Giannis should give thanks every night that KD's toe was on the line, I could not even imagine the shit he would be getting right now if he was still ringless after losing to an 8 seed :oldlol: Good lord.

To me, that's been the most pivotal moment in the league over the last 5 or so years. The Nets likely don't break up, all those trades that went down never happen, the league would literally look completely different, and KD & Giannis would have wildly different reputations.

[ArbitraryWater]

This series was not fairly winnable. Their two wins were both tight games at home when Booker shot 80% from the field. Every loss was double digits.

The series not winnable because KD cant get the best out of a team and just does his iso thing while not contributing any other way.

Game 5 was a 1 possession game at HT, and they couldnt have won? Please.

[tontoz]

The series not winnable because KD cant get the best out of a team and just does his iso thing while not contributing any other way.

Game 5 was a 1 possession game at HT, and they couldnt have won? Please.

Yeah lets just ignore the fatigue/altitude thing.

[Naero]

This series was not fairly winnable. Their two wins were both tight games at home when Booker shot 80% from the field. Every loss was double digits.

I disagree. It's not like the Suns were an entire tier below their opponent.

They won both games in their homestand without CP3, and they probably win Game 2 (which was neck-and-neck until the last-few minutes) as well if Durant shoots up to par. Also, the double-digit differentials can be misleading; for example, do the Nuggets pull away so easily in Game 6 if Durant staunches the bleeding early on? Psychological momentum is a thing, after all, and it tilted in the Nuggets' favor partly because he shot so poorly early on (2-10, if I'm remembering correctly).

Were the Nuggets the logical favorites? Sure, and I'm not necessarily faulting KD for losing to them. I'm just saying it's not unreasonable to expect him to pull off an upset or some other equivalent feat in his career if he's to justify his all-time ranking, which seems to be around 10-15 by consensus. If he shoots as well as he did in the regular season (as an ATG of his rank should), then yes, the series was winnable enough.

[Naero]

I don't think anyone actually disputes that. Despite his flaws, KD is, at worst, one of the 20-25 best players in the history of the league. And he did get very unlucky in 2021 that both Harden AND Kyrie got hurt, and that his toe was on the line on what would've been the series winner. For all the times he never quite played up to his potential, he was absolutely out of his mind that series, that was some of the most impressive basketball I've watched.

Giannis should give thanks every night that KD's toe was on the line, I could not even imagine the shit he would be getting right now if he was still ringless after losing to an 8 seed :oldlol: Good lord.

To me, that's been the most pivotal moment in the league over the last 5 or so years. The Nets likely don't break up, all those trades that went down never happen, the league would literally look completely different, and KD & Giannis would have wildly different reputations.

When people claim he needs a historically loaded team to win it all, it sure sounds like they're disputing it. Many legitimately seem to doubt that he's capable of leading lower-tier champions, even though he's played just as well as, if not more than, others who've done it; they need to actually see it to believe it. In an ideal world, his near-miss 2021 carry-job would've done more for his legacy than his Warriors rings.

It takes some level of luck to do it and, yes, Giannis had no shortage of it in 2021. But you often also have to play great (as Giannis did) to capitalize on it, and KD failed to do so on other years. Once you get to the top-15 or -10 pantheon of ATGs, it takes more than one or two questionable rings to complete one's legacy (and this applies to Giannis as well) and drown out all the blackmarks.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yeah lets just ignore the fatigue/altitude thing.

lmao, ive never genuinely heard "altitude" being used as an excuse not to perform in Denver in the playoffs :oldlol:

thats wild. Maybe for a game. Not when its your 3rd game there and youve stayed a week.

[ArbitraryWater]

When people claim he needs a historically loaded team to win it all, it sure sounds like they're disputing it. Many legitimately seem to doubt that he's capable of leading lower-tier champions, even though he's played just as well as, if not more than, others who've done it; they need to actually see it to believe it. In an ideal world, his near-miss 2021 carry-job would've done more for his legacy than his Warriors rings.

It takes some level of luck to do it and, yes, Giannis had no shortage of it in 2021. But you often also have to play great (as Giannis did) to capitalize on it, and KD failed to do so on other years. Once you get to the top-15 or -10 pantheon of ATGs, it takes more than one or two questionable rings to complete one's legacy (and this applies to Giannis as well) and drown out the flameouts.

He does. 2021 is the outlier in that regard. And he still had Kyrie for 4 games. He balled out for the next 3 games, but it was just 3 games without them. 3 games. It doesnt mean he could have done the same in the ECF or Finals.

[tpols]

I don't think anyone actually disputes that. Despite his flaws, KD is, at worst, one of the 20-25 best players in the history of the league. And he did get very unlucky in 2021 that both Harden AND Kyrie got hurt, and that his toe was on the line on what would've been the series winner. For all the times he never quite played up to his potential, he was absolutely out of his mind that series, that was some of the most impressive basketball I've watched.

Giannis should give thanks every night that KD's toe was on the line, I could not even imagine the shit he would be getting right now if he was still ringless after losing to an 8 seed :oldlol: Good lord.

To me, that's been the most pivotal moment in the league over the last 5 or so years. The Nets likely don't break up, all those trades that went down never happen, the league would literally look completely different, and KD & Giannis would have wildly different reputations.

The butterfly effect is extremely powerful lol.


https://youtu.be/kkWQLjI2rAU

Awesome movie.

[tontoz]

I disagree. It's not like the Suns were an entire tier below their opponent.

They won both games in their homestand without CP3, and they probably win Game 2 (which was neck-and-neck until the last-few minutes) as well if Durant shoots up to par. Also, the double-digit differentials can be misleading; for example, do the Nuggets pull away so easily in Game 6 if Durant staunches the bleeding early on? Psychological momentum is a thing, after all, and it tilted in the Nuggets' favor partly because he shot so poorly early on (2-10, if I'm remembering correctly).

Were the Nuggets the logical favorites? Sure, and I'm not necessarily faulting KD for losing to them. I'm just saying it's not unreasonable to expect him to pull off an upset or some other equivalent feat in his career if he's to justify his all-time ranking, which seems to be around 10-15 by consensus. If he shoots as well as he did in the regular season (as an ATG of his rank should), then yes, the series was winnable enough.



Booker shot 80% from the field in the two home games they won.

Before the series even started i said that Gordon would give KD a hard time.

[SouBeachTalents]

lmao, ive never genuinely heard "altitude" being used as an excuse not to perform in Denver in the playoffs :oldlol:

thats wild. Maybe for a game. Not when its your 3rd game there and youve stayed a week.
I don't recall hearing about that once during the '09 WCF for example. That's been like the only relevant basketball to have taken place in Denver before this year :lol

[tontoz]

Most teams don't have their star players playing 40+ minutes in Denver.

[DMAVS41]

The altitude definitely matters and is an advantage. How big...probably not a ton, but it isn't nothing with a team already lacking quality depth.

I do think the series was winnable going in, but I think we all were, at least I was, too dismissive of Paul going down not impacting the Suns. After watching the series, I think it hurt more than I thought it would overall. Also, Ayton takes a lot of shit, but he definitely is a positive player for the Suns and missing him clearly hurt last game in terms of offensive spacing.

Having said that, even with those circumstances...the Suns were one great half away from going back home with a 3-2 series lead. If Durant was great, I definitely think they had a chance, but were underdogs...

End of the day, for me, Durant wasn't great and it skews the result. Yes, it was going to be hard on him, but that is the thing...most all-time greats can perform great when the circumstances are easy...this is just another example of Durant not doing something special. Does it hurt him? No, not really...but every year that goes by...his legacy becomes more and more dependent on the Warriors.

[imdaman99]

Oh here we go with the witch hunt. Nothing but negativity from op

[tontoz]

Paul played the first two games and they scored 107 and 87. The next two games without him they scored 120+. I just don't think he is an impact player any more.

Just looking at the outcomes ignores the reality of how much better Denver was. All 4 wins were double digits. It took Booker going into video game mode to pull out close wins at home.

Acting like they had a chance in game 5 is ridiculous. They lost by 16. That's not close.

A Denver sweep was a lot closer to happening than a Suns victory.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Durant needs to play in the mid post, and play a lot like older Dirk. Pick and roll of course. But get the ball at the nail, and work off of that. Durant is a decent passer and the doubles will come.

But Durant never had any desire to be a better post scorer earlier in his career and now with him being older, it's harder.

He spends way too much time trying to drive from the 3 point line when he doesn't have great handles, and he is really turnover prone. Denver dang sure exploited that on defense.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, I'm sorry...we must pretend that a team coming off 2 straight wins down 3 at halftime...has absolutely no chance to win a game on the road.

Think about how absurd this statement is and reflect on this.

Also, Paul had a positive on court differential in game 2 and Monty hadn't given in to play more offensive oriented lineups yet...again, adjustments are made in a series....I do agree, however, that the team on the court in game 6 was close to drawing dead without Ayton...but that isn't what people are talking about.

[dankok8]

I don't think this loss really hurts Durant but the door is slowly closing on him ever breaking into the pantheon (top 12) all time.

It's not that he struggled but he failed to put a stamp on the series the way Jokic and Booker did. KD was the 3rd best player on the floor which isn't a great look.

[tontoz]

Yes, I'm sorry...we must pretend that a team coming off 2 straight wins down 3 at halftime...has absolutely no chance to win a game on the road.

Think about how absurd this statement is and reflect on this.

Also, Paul had a positive on court differential in game 2 and Monty hadn't given in to play more offensive oriented lineups yet...again, adjustments are made in a series....I do agree, however, that the team on the court in game 6 was close to drawing dead without Ayton...but that isn't what people are talking about.

Yes it is absurd to pretend a 16 point loss was a winnable game. You are trying to rewrite the entire second half :oldlol:

What would you say about the Suns 7 pt and 4 point wins at home? If a 16 point loss was winnable for the Suns then those two were certainly winnable for Denver which would have been a sweep.

A winnable game is one where not much has to change for the outcome to change.

[DMAVS41]

Yes it is absurd to pretend a 16 point loss was a winnable game. You are trying to rewrite the entire second half :oldlol:

What would you say about the Suns 7 pt and 4 point wins at home? If a 16 point loss was winnable for the Suns then those two were certainly winnable for Denver which would have been a sweep.

A winnable game is one where not much has to change for the outcome to change.

I'm not rewriting anything. I responded to your post in which you said "acting like they had a chance in game 5 is ridiculous"...implying that there was no chance...which is an absurd statement. You seemed confused again...as has been put to you before...

There is no way at halftime of game 5...if we all got together and were doing the chances of the Suns winning that game and then the series...would any reasonable person come up with "no chance"...in fact, it would fail to surprise many people that aren't even that high on Durant...if he came out and played a great 2nd half and stole that game.

Me thinking the above...does not mean I don't fully agree what the Nuggets could have won both games 3 and 4, never had I said anything like that...just like I think you dismiss the chances of the Suns winning game 2 like it just was impossible if Paul doesn't get hurt.

Nobody knows what would or wouldn't happen...but I can assure you this...if you were a big Nuggets fan or had a lot of money on this series...there is no ****ing way in hell that at halftime of game 5 anyone would be feeling like there was no chance for the Suns to pull something off.

That has been my point the entire time...never did I say half of what you seem to be responding to like the Nuggets couldn't have won games 3 or 4.

[tontoz]

It doesn't matter what anybody felt at halftime of game 5. We know the outcome. We know Denver won by 16. That game was not close to being a suns victory.

Using your logic every game is winnable since they start tied. That is just ignoring what actually happened.

[ArbitraryWater]

It doesn't matter what anybody felt at halftime of game 5. We know the outcome. We know Denver won by 16. That game was not close to being a suns victory.

Using your logic every game is winnable since they start tied. That is just ignoring what actually happened.


Except Durant had many opportunities to impact that game with just 1 half left and didn‘t. He had a below average game.

If he had player like a top 15 all time, it would have gone down to the wire.

[tontoz]

I think we needs to give Gordon some credit for his defense which is a big reason why they traded for him in the first place. They gave up a first round pick and Gary Harris who was starting for them.

[DMAVS41]

It doesn't matter what anybody felt at halftime of game 5. We know the outcome. We know Denver won by 16. That game was not close to being a suns victory.

Using your logic every game is winnable since they start tied. That is just ignoring what actually happened.

That isn't how it works and not even what I'm arguing.

That actually isn't my logic and I'm not the one being obtuse here. LOL @ knowing the outcome...that is exactly my point....and it is your logic that no game is winnable that isn't won because we know the outcome.

I'm literally talking about the exact opposite thing....it is about gauging the damn response to the potential outcomes...not the outcomes themselves as nobody is arguing that given how the game 5 was played...it was winnable at the end.

[tontoz]

Every game could be a potential win or a potential loss :oldlol:

You could make that argument about literally every game. ' we lost by 30 but we were up 5 in the second quarter so we could have won '.

Of course you could have won but you weren't even close to winning.

[Kblaze8855]

.says who? You?

Either way, this entire argument is useless. So you think public vote / perception doesnt matter. Okay cool.

At the end of the day these are negative outings for him, and theyre all gonna be taken into any reasonable account of him as a player and his career.

You can dumb it down with your "hes a 2 time champion, 2 time FMVP, everyone loses" yada yada takes, but details matter.



You thinking your morning sports talk show takes arent “dumbing it down” relative to basketball people who evaluate aspects of the game most fans barely realize are happening is hilarious. There is nothing more dumbed down for easy public consumption than “See? He lost. But ____ didn’t. Let’s talk.”

It’s literally the Mike Greenberg cookie cutter sports host with nothing to say approach to player evaluation. It’s fluff. But it’s popular. It lets people who have no idea what they’re seeing feel like part of the conversation. It’s what my friends call “Gavin talk”. We have a younger cousin named Gavin who knows nothing about sports but stays trying to shoehorn in his takes about who lost and how they suck and all….

It’s “I can’t keep quiet” talk. And it’s fine. It’s required for sports discussion to be done on a large scale. But it is what it is.

Its 1-9, 6/24, 4/10, “But what he do without Steph/Pippen/Lebron/Brady/Whoever” talk to fill 4 minutes till the hard network out has to play the zip recruiter ad.

It isn’t basketball evaluation. It’s noise. And like I said…it’s fine. But let’s not act like the guys like Iggy who will talk at length about his wingspan being hard to deal with when he covers you , his immediate understanding and execution of concepts when they’re changed, or the footwork on his pull-up are the people dumbing it down.

The players and certain media who have been in the game factually do know more than you do. And more than I do for that matter. And people have a reeeeal problem admitting that. Like more knowledgeable people existing threatens the validity of their take.

It doesn’t.

People who know more than you still disagree with each other. People who dwarf you or I in experience and have spent 30 years designing the plays they run and feeling how strong guys are and how hard they are to move ARE more informed. These are the people generally impressed by KD.

Fans don’t look at the game that way because they have no way to. You’re watching clips. They’re hearing how he communicates on D, seeing how he scores even when they knew what he was gonna do…they’re talking real world experience you can’t compare to. They have all the surface level shit you have from tv and Google but you have none of the deeper experience they live.

And it bugs people to admit. Doesn’t bug me though. I don’t care if Evan Turner thinks I’m wrong. Wes Matthews might think I’m right. Its not as simple as knowledge making anyone infallible. They still disagree with each other.

Not many seem to land on the side always shitting on KD though. And as a rule…I lean towards expertise and against the people working as landscapers telling the experts they’re way off. I’m just not listening to you over an nfl CB about how hard some wide receiver is to cover. If you feel that unreasonable….I’ll live with that.

[DMAVS41]

I've tried, at length, to explain to you that it isn't about the actual outcome...

When people talk like this it is about potential outcomes and value judgments...

As when someone says..."If Durant had come out and played a great 2nd half in game 5, I think they could have won the series"...built into that statement is everything that happened combined with their value judgment on that potential outcome. They aren't saying something so meaningless as every game has potential.

They are making a specific statement related to Durant needing to be truly great to win and pushing back on the narrative that Durant just had no chance in this series...etc. Gordon making it tough on him doesn't change the statement they are making...one could get into a conversation about how realistic it would be (hence trying to quantify things), but in this specific case...someone is saying, hey...if Durant wants to get his props on his own...he needs to do special things when his team is only a half away from going home with the series lead.

I cannot believe this needs to be explained to you, but apparently it does.

[tontoz]

If a doughnut didn't have a hole it would be a danish. But it does so it's not.

When normal people talk about winnable games they are talking about games that were actually close at the end and could have gone the other way if one or two possessions went differently. They arent talking about 16 point losses. :oldlol:

[iamgine]

Durant, Booker, Paul, Ayton, Warren, Ross, Payne, Shamet is not stacked?
lol listing them don't make it better. :lol

[DMAVS41]

If a doughnut didn't have a hole it would be a danish. But it does so it's not.

When normal people talk about winnable games they are talking about games that were actually close at the end and could have gone the other way if one or two possessions went differently. They arent talking about 16 point losses. :oldlol:

Determining how and when to draw that line is difficult.

Did the Sixers not have a winnable game 6 because they ended up losing by 9?

How about the Mavs in game 2 of the 11 finals when they were down 15 with 6 minutes left...just not winnable...right? Normal people don't view that as winnable...right?

You are either choosing to act stupid or are mentally challenged...either way it is kind of pathetic. You can't remove the players from what happens....for example, if Jason Terry misses those shots and free throws...the Mavs wouldn't come back and win...and people like you would be saying it wasn't a winnable game even though we live in the ****ing universe in which they won the damn game.

You can have the last word, but I refuse to believe you are this dense.

[ArbitraryWater]

If a doughnut didn't have a hole it would be a danish. But it does so it's not.

When normal people talk about winnable games they are talking about games that were actually close at the end and could have gone the other way if one or two possessions went differently. They arent talking about 16 point losses. :oldlol:

thats very close minded. just cause it normally doesnt happen, doesnt mean those games arent winable.

Especially if you dont impact these games much to begin with.

There was so much upside from KDs end.

[tontoz]

thats very close minded. just cause it normally doesnt happen, doesnt mean those games arent winable.

Especially if you dont impact these games much to begin with.

There was so much upside from KDs end.


But you can make that argument with any game, which makes it irrelevant.

If we know what actually happened, then we can clearly see what games could have realistically gone the other way. If you have to change 6 possessions that isn't realistic.

[ILLsmak]

Another loss as favorite on a stacked team, beaten by a less talented but superior branded squad.

Probably would have been b2b first round exits had Leonard not gotten injured.

Won 2 playoff series since after 2018.

Another super pathetic showing in an eimination game, stat-masked by going off when the game was over. 2/11 at haftime down 30, then going 6/8 in the 2nd half with the game never going back to a 20 point game. Mister Unreliabe, still all these years later.

How many more excuses will he get? Media ranking him highly, players talking him up... he needs to entirely prove himself all over again. He has never done JACK SHIT outside of the GSW safe haven basketball utopyia.



Where is his legacy going? I dont rate him highly at all.

His legacy is ass cuz a lot of bad luck imo. He’s a once in a life time player tho from tx to when he couldn’t bench 185. He did it on biggest stage. Took stephs mvps. He’s the truth. Not many ppl in nba history can stop him, plus he was playing d, too. He’s like deron Williams, just got really off track. But kd is a stud. Would have loved a fair Bron v kd match up. No Wb. U start w Wb then jump around. Trash. But he showed he was on another level in gs. Which to me was always obvious, but he kinda weird n easy to hate yea.

-Smak

[tontoz]

Determining how and when to draw that line is difficult.

Did the Sixers not have a winnable game 6 because they ended up losing by 9?

How about the Mavs in game 2 of the 11 finals when they were down 15 with 6 minutes left...just not winnable...right? Normal people don't view that as winnable...right?

You are either choosing to act stupid or are mentally challenged...either way it is kind of pathetic. You can't remove the players from what happens....for example, if Jason Terry misses those shots and free throws...the Mavs wouldn't come back and win...and people like you would be saying it wasn't a winnable game even though we live in the ****ing universe in which they won the damn game.

You can have the last word, but I refuse to believe you are this dense.

Again you are selectively ignoring what actually happened. You are looking at it from the perspective of a game that is in progress, not one that is actually over .

[DMAVS41]

Again you are selectively ignoring what actually happened. You are looking at it from the perspective of a game that is in progress, not one that is actually over .

Last post as I promised to give you the last word, but I had to respond.

I honestly can't grasp what you are missing, but whatever...you have confused yourself to where you now are essentially arguing that the level of impact from a player doesn't affect the outcome because the game is over....

Guy: "If Durant had played a great game 5 or dominant 2nd half...I think the Suns could have won game 5"

You: "Nonsense, they factually lost by 16, it wasn't a winnable game"

Guy: "Correct, and the outcome of the game was in part impacted by the fact that Durant did not take over the game, that is my point"

You: "Nonsense, you are forgetting the game is actually over"

All yours...:cheers:

[tontoz]

Last post as I promised to give you the last word, but I had to respond.

I honestly can't grasp what you are missing, but whatever...you have confused yourself to where you now are essentially arguing that the level of impact from a player doesn't affect the outcome because the game is over....

Guy: "If Durant had played a great game 5 or dominant 2nd half...I think the Suns could have won game 5"

You: "Nonsense, they factually lost by 16, it wasn't a winnable game"

Guy: "Correct, and the outcome of the game was in part impacted by the fact that Durant did not take over the game, that is my point"

You: "Nonsense, you are forgetting the game is actually over"

All yours...:cheers:


If you have to change 6+ possessions to change the outcome, that isn't a realistic scenario. This isn't hard to grasp, or shouldn't be.

[ArbitraryWater]

If you have to change 6+ possessions to change the outcome, that isn't a realistic scenario. This isn't hard to grasp, or shouldn't be.

It is though.

He coud have competey set the tone, it woud have been a different game. You never know when you just dont, do anything.

Same for game 6.

Imagine if KD had one performance like Bookers. Maybe Book would have been more inspired (almost surely).

[tontoz]

It is though.

He coud have competey set the tone, it woud have been a different game. You never know when you just dont, do anything.

Same for game 6.

Imagine if KD had one performance like Bookers. Maybe Book would have been more inspired (almost surely).



The most field goals he made in a game this series was 12, and it wasn't for lack of trying.

If Booker shoots only 50% from the field and from 3 in games 3 and 4, there wouldn't have been a game 5. Of course that doesn't matter it is just hypothetical nonsense.

[ArbitraryWater]

The most field goals he made in a game this series was 12, and it wasn't for lack of trying.

If Booker shoots only 50% from the field and from 3 in games 3 and 4, there wouldn't have been a game 5. Of course that doesn't matter it is just hypothetical nonsense.


Okay, so no hypotheticals: Durant played like poop, denying them any chance of winning

[tontoz]

Okay, so no hypotheticals: Durant played like poop, denying them any chance of winning


I do think he tries to iso too much. That leads to some turnovers and tough shots

I also think Denver deserves some credit for their defense. A lot of people were predicting that KD would shred them.

Bottom line is their roster is a mess. Just imagine if they had any two of Gordon/KCP/Brown.

Look at Miami. They have 4 guys in their rotation that were undrafted.

[Charlie Sheen]

Going to Golden state was never the problem... leaving was. Once you make that move you gotta win and keep winning until the league changes the rules against you. Winning just a little bit was a waste. Might as well have stayed the lovable loser if he wasnt all in for bill russell's #