Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Kevin Durant

[Iverson3]

Who is rank higher in the all time lists?? Hakeem led the Houston Rockets to two NBA titles in the 1990's while Durant won 2 championships joining a super team Warriors.

https://www.statspros.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Hakeem-Olajuwon-vs-Kevin-Durant-Stats.jpg

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron

[Im Still Ballin]

Hakeem. Both players have similar flaws: questionable shot selection and passing - especially out of double teams. I like Hakeem's defense over KD's shooting advantage. I also feel more confident in Olajuwon's stronger body and post-up game producing the postseason and clutch.

[plowking]

Your assessment of basketball is straight ass if you pick KD. All I'll say.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Hakeem is the better player. He elevates his teammates more.

[Phoenix]

Brian Scalabrine.

Joke questions necessitate joke replies.

[BlakFrankWhite]

As an efficient scorer : KD

Everything else : Hakeem wipes the floor with KD.

[HoopsNY]

Is this a joke?

[Im Still Ballin]

Is this a joke?

I'm surprised by how many votes KD is getting.

[SouBeachTalents]

What psychopath used 13 alts to vote for KD? :lol

[DMAVS41]

Is this a joke?

Sadly not.

[DMAVS41]

What psychopath used 13 alts to vote for KD :lol

It's not just trolling. You have legit basketball minds and people that would argue KD deserving to be ranked alongside Hakeem. Again, ESPN had him 12th like 2 years ago in their rankings.

[ArbitraryWater]

Their titles could not be any more different :lol

[Phoenix]

I'm surprised by how many votes KD is getting.

You're on ISH. You shouldn't be surprised by anything you read here.

Holy shit I just voted and broke a tie. Oh yeah, refer to above statement. Be surprised at nothing on this site.....

EDIT: and someone just voted after me to tie it up again :oldlol:

[Sean Connery]

That'sh ****ed up, man. Who'sh rigging thish vote? There ain't no way The Shlim Peeper ish a match for The Dream.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm surprised by how many votes KD is getting.

for starters I just accidentally voted Durant :lol

https://i.gyazo.com/6278d318190dbe45632a9fe8a95a1164.png




but any poll that isnt public is useless.


Could be completely troll or alt-infested.

[Im Still Ballin]

You're on ISH. You shouldn't be surprised by anything you read here.

Holy shit I just voted and broke a tie. Oh yeah, refer to above statement. Be surprised at nothing on this site.....

EDIT: and someone just voted after me to tie it up again :oldlol:

Truth.


for starters I just accidentally voted Durant :lol

https://i.gyazo.com/6278d318190dbe45632a9fe8a95a1164.png




but any poll that isnt public is useless.


Could be completely troll or alt-infested.

Word. When I make a thread, it's public. It's no fun if you don't get to see what people voted for.

[Real Men Wear Green]

What psychopath used 13 alts to vote for KD? :lol

We have a poster that names himself "AlternativeAcc," so...

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's not just trolling. You have legit basketball minds and people that would argue KD deserving to be ranked alongside Hakeem. Again, ESPN had him 12th like 2 years ago in their rankings.

Durant had the talent to be one of the five greatest ever... but not the resume.

[DMAVS41]

Durant had the talent to be one of the five greatest ever... but not the resume.

I don't think so as his help throughout his career has been more than good enough to allow him to achieve what you claim if he was actually good enough to warrant top 5 consideration. He basically played with an in prime deserving all-nba teammate every year of his prime. Him not having a good enough resume is on him...hell, his current resume isn't even that great and it was inflated to begin with by getting 2 free titles and finals mvp's he never would have gotten if not for stacking the deck.

His real resume as the best player / leader of a franchise is 1 finals appearance.

His actual impact is in the top 20 or so range to date for his career and that is where he should be ranked unless he does something more in the remainder of his career.

[FultzNationRISE]

Durant had the talent to be one of the five greatest ever… but not the resume.

No he didnt.

Being a tall jump shooter is not the be-all of basketball.

Not sure why people think it is.

[Im Still Ballin]

KD's disregard for proper strength and conditioning was his biggest downfall in my opinion. He could have grown strong and sturdy; he would've developed certain deficiencies in his game and become more well-rounded. He has a similar height, standing reach, and wingspan to Dwight but he hasn't the sturdy frame and bulk.

Some would say he didn't have the build to grow like Giannis and AD did, but I disagree. I'm not sure he really tried. Moses Malone was skinny as hell but he put in work to grow bigger and stronger.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQljOSN8JhFQxbhYaeTn1Zi3lWfgzI4Q F9bpsgwvFsh1PY3WKdgumSzfxjOPN6Yu0AaD8A&usqp=CAU

https://i.ibb.co/1G4cr2f/download.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Xyxpg7v/download.jpg

Adding an extra 40-50 high-quality pounds to his frame would unlock so many things for him. But he's one of those guys who thinks weights slow you down and cause injuries.

[Phoenix]

I don't think so as his help throughout his career has been more than good enough to allow him to achieve what you claim if he was actually good enough to warrant top 5 consideration. He basically played with an in prime deserving all-nba teammate every year of his prime. Him not having a good enough resume is on him...hell, his current resume isn't even that great and it was inflated to begin with by getting 2 free titles and finals mvp's he never would have gotten if not for stacking the deck.

His real resume as the best player / leader of a franchise is 1 finals appearance.

His actual impact is in the top 20 or so range to date for his career and that is where he should be ranked unless he does something more in the remainder of his career.

I read on here once that remove the Warriors years and his career record isn't all that far removed from someone like Allen Iverson. Yeah Durant's the higher % scorer( in a perimeter-friendly era, I digress), but....

Finals appearances:
Durant 1, Iverson 1

MVPs
Durant 1, Iverson 1

All-star
Durant 13, Iverson 11

Scoring titles
Durant 4, Iverson 4

All-NBA
Durant 10, Iverson 7

Now for the comprehensively challenged, no I'm not saying Durant and Iverson are equal( though I do think A.I has started to become underrated because of the advanced stats *ma$terbation and how his career ended), but it's interesting to note the parallels in their accolades.

[Im Still Ballin]

Moses at 19: 215 pounds at 6'10"
AD at 19: 212 pounds at 6'10"
KD at 19:212 pounds at 6'9"

Moses at 24: 235 pounds at 6'10"
AD at 21: 240 pounds at 6'10"
KD at 21: 223 pounds at 6'9"

Moses at maximum weight: 255-260 pounds at 6'10"
AD at 23: 253 pounds at 6'10"
KD at 23: 231 pounds at 6'9"

AD with Lakers: probably 255-260+ pounds
KD at 26: 237 pounds at 6'9"

KD 2021 Olympics: 225 pounds

[DMAVS41]

I read on here once that remove the Warriors years and his career record isn't all that far removed from someone like Allen Iverson. Yeah Durant's the higher % scorer( in a perimeter-friendly era, I digress), but....

Finals appearances:
Durant 1, Iverson 1

MVPs
Durant 1, Iverson 1

All-star
Durant 13, Iverson 11

Scoring titles
Durant 4, Iverson 4

All-NBA
Durant 10, Iverson 7

Now for the comprehensively challenged, no I'm not saying Durant and Iverson are equal( though I do think A.I has started to become underrated because of the advanced stats *ma$terbation and how his career ended), but it's interesting to note the parallels in their accolades.

Yep, we talked about that a bit ago...

What is even worse for Durant, is that he played with significantly better teams than Iverson did in the comparison you did above....and yes, there were some better playoff runs...etc, but overall in terms of really accomplishing things as the leader...it isn't much of a difference at all.

Yet we have people, to this day, he could be top 5.

If you gave Allen Iverson the kind of help Durant got in his non-warriors career...you'd expect more than only 1 finals appearance...anyone with any amount of honesty and objectivity...would admit that.

[kawhileonard2]

Hakeem won for the franchise that drafted him and won multiple titles. Lebron didnt do that.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Durant stays getting disrespected... lol @ this thread.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Hakeem won for the franchise that drafted him and won multiple titles. Lebron didnt do that.

I think You meant to post in this thread http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?471464-Hakeem-or-LeBron-all-time

[Nike D'Antoni]

I think only people who haven’t seen Hakeem play would say, Durant.

[AlternativeAcc.]

We have a poster that names himself "AlternativeAcc," so...

I have 2 accounts dawg. Get out of here with this shit.

[3ba11]

1) MJ
2) Kobe
3) Bird
4) Curry
5) Russell
6) Wilt
7) Kareem
8) Duncan
9) Shaq
10) agic
11) Lebron
12) Hakeem
13) Durant
15) Oscar
16) Dr. J
17) Baylor
18) West
19) Moses
20) Jokic
21) Barkley
22) Malone
23) Dirk
24) Giannis
25) Walton

Pettit
Reed
Robinson
Embiid
Wade
Isiah
Havlicek
Frazier

AD
Ewing
KG
Barry
Kawhi
Drexler

Payton
Mcadoo
Butler
Iverson

Dominique
Tmac
Harden
Mikan
McHale
Stockton
Pierce
CP3
Nash


50+ guys that are all capable of elite, dominant production and far better than Pippen

[kawhileonard2]

1) MJ
2) Kobe
3) Bird
4) Curry
5) Russell
6) Wilt
7) Kareem
8) Duncan
9) Shaq
10) agic
11) Lbron
12) Hakeem
13) Durant*
15) Oscar
16) Dr. J
17) Baylor
18) West
19) Moses
20) Barkley
21) Malone
22) Dirk
23) Giannis
24) Jokic
Pettit
Reed
Robinson
Embiid
Wade
Isiah
Havlicek
Frazier

AD
Ewing
KG
Barry
Kawhi
Drexler

Payton
Mcadoo
Butler
Iverson

Dominique
Tmac
Harden
Mikan
McHale
Stockton
Pierce
CP3
Nash

Horrible list. Kobe #2. Kawhi outside top 15? Come on now.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I think only people who haven’t seen Hakeem play would say, Durant.

It's the other way around.

Hakeem was an inefficient black hole who people falsey give credit for winning by himself. His role players were amazing and his comp was flat-out bad.

The dude was always a shadow to the real greats most of his career.... Durant was always considered top 2 when healthy.

[3ba11]

Horrible list. Kobe #2. Kawhi outside top 15? Come on now.


Kawhi would be much higher but he doesn't play.. He literally doesn't play anymore and rarely did even in his prime.. He had 1 "great" playoff run in his career otherwise he was injured.. And I left Walton off the list so there's some holes in the list

[kawhileonard2]

Hakeem did something Lebron couldn't do and that win multiple titles for the franchise that drafted him

[SouBeachTalents]

1) MJ
2) Kobe
3) Bird
4) Curry
5) Russell
6) Wilt
7) Kareem
8) Duncan
9) Shaq
10) agic
11) Lebron
12) Hakeem
13) Durant
15) Oscar
16) Dr. J
17) Baylor
18) West
19) Moses
20) Jokic
21) Barkley
22) Malone
23) Dirk
24) Giannis
25) Walton

Pettit
Reed
Robinson
Embiid
Wade
Isiah
Havlicek
Frazier

AD
Ewing
KG
Barry
Kawhi
Drexler

Payton
Mcadoo
Butler
Iverson

Dominique
Tmac
Harden
Mikan
McHale
Stockton
Pierce
CP3
Nash


50+ guys that are all capable of elite, dominant production and far better than Pippen
Wow, Kawhi went from top 5 all the way to 38th, while Giannis & Dirk went from top 10 to outside the top 20.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I don't think so as his help throughout his career has been more than good enough to allow him to achieve what you claim if he was actually good enough to warrant top 5 consideration. He basically played with an in prime deserving all-nba teammate every year of his prime. Him not having a good enough resume is on him...hell, his current resume isn't even that great and it was inflated to begin with by getting 2 free titles and finals mvp's he never would have gotten if not for stacking the deck.

His real resume as the best player / leader of a franchise is 1 finals appearance.

His actual impact is in the top 20 or so range to date for his career and that is where he should be ranked unless he does something more in the remainder of his career.

I said he had the talent but not the resume. I am well aware that what he actually did was not top 5 worthy or even close. I am more talking about what I think he could have done had he wanted to. He could have gone after the all- time scoring record. May not have got it but had he tried for it he would have as many scoring titles as he wanted. He could have averaged a good 8+ rebounds as many seasons as he wanted to as well. And in the defensive end, especially before he tore his Achilles, his man defense was rough on any wing he put his mind to stopping other than James. I am not saying that being driven to do a much as he possibly could would have lead to a lot more winning but if he is at this stage of his career with 20 scoring titles, bigger career rebounding numbers and some more mvp awards he at least has a more impressive resume.

[3ba11]

I don't think so as his help throughout his career has been more than good enough to allow him to achieve what you claim if he was actually good enough to warrant top 5 consideration. He basically played with an in prime deserving all-nba teammate every year of his prime. Him not having a good enough resume is on him...hell, his current resume isn't even that great and it was inflated to begin with by getting 2 free titles and finals mvp's he never would have gotten if not for stacking the deck.

His real resume as the best player / leader of a franchise is 1 finals appearance.

His actual impact is in the top 20 or so range to date for his career and that is where he should be ranked unless he does something more in the remainder of his career.


Durant had an unprecedented advantage in 2017, but Lebron had an unprecedented advantage for the 6 years before that, which yielded 3 chips in 6 years and preseason favorite status for 6 straight years (11-16').

So Lebron's unprecedented advantage lasted twice as long and stopped KD from winning organically with Westbrook in 2012, while also stopping organic chips from Duncan in 2013 or Curry in 2016.

Essentially, Durant was merely breaking Lebron's record for deck-stacking but unfortunately he did so 6 years too late and after Lebron won 3 chips in 6 years with preseason favorite status for 6 straight years.

It's easy to forget that Wade was drastically out-producing Kobe in 2009 and 2010 - he was considered a Kobe-level player and you can't lose twice with a Kobe-level teammate, even without considering the Pau-level player at 3rd option.. It's simply far below GOAT-caliber - if Lebron was goat-caliber, he would've won more than 2/4 with Wade or 1/4 with Love or 1/4 with AD - if he can't have a dynasty, 3-peat or 6 chips with any lineup, then he's objectively inferior to MJ

[j3lademaster]

Moses at 19: 215 pounds at 6'10"
AD at 19: 212 pounds at 6'10"
KD at 19:212 pounds at 6'9"

Moses at 24: 235 pounds at 6'10"
AD at 21: 240 pounds at 6'10"
KD at 21: 223 pounds at 6'9"

Moses at maximum weight: 255-260 pounds at 6'10"
AD at 23: 253 pounds at 6'10"
KD at 23: 231 pounds at 6'9"

AD with Lakers: probably 255-260+ pounds
KD at 26: 237 pounds at 6'9"

KD 2021 Olympics: 225 poundsIt's hard to criticize this part of KD's game. It'd be one thing if he was a similar player to AD in college, displaying true defensive talent, but he wasn't. And there isn't anything wrong with that. To me, in terms of skill and ability he maxed out. What holds him back is strictly mental. He has crapped the bed every time he's supposed to win outside of Golden State, where he was far and away running with the goat cast. Besides that, the only truly great playoff series was 2021 vs the Bucks where he didn't have the pressure of having to win, and in that kind of circumstance we can see what KD is truly capable of in terms of pure basketball ability... and man, that was something to behold.

[Im Still Ballin]

It's hard to criticize this part of KD's game. It'd be one thing if he was a similar player to AD in college, displaying true defensive talent, but he wasn't. And there isn't anything wrong with that. To me, in terms of skill and ability he maxed out. What holds him back is strictly mental. He has crapped the bed every time he's supposed to win outside of Golden State, where he was far and away running with the goat cast. Besides that, the only truly great playoff series was 2021 vs the Bucks where he didn't have the pressure of having to win, and in that kind of circumstance we can see what KD is truly capable of in terms of pure basketball ability... and man, that was something to behold.

Sounds like more excuses to me.

LeBron wasn't a good post-up player early in his career. He worked on it and improved to the point that he lead the league in post-up efficiency in 2014.

Mike Conley Jr was a poor three-point shooter in college. He worked on it and became a very good one.

You can't say he "maxed out" his potential if he didn't fully embrace strength and conditioning. Your physical qualities play a large factor regarding skill acquisition and basketball ability. He never showed things he was probably good at because he wasn't strong and heavy enough to effectively utilize them in games.

[ImKobe]

Hakeem lost early in the POs many, many times & underperformed with his own "superteams" from '97-'99. Can't go wrong with either but I'd rather have KD personally.

[j3lademaster]

Sounds like more excuses to me.

LeBron wasn't a good post-up player early in his career. He worked on it and improved to the point that he lead the league in post-up efficiency in 2014.

Mike Conley Jr was a poor three-point shooter in college. He worked on it and became a very good one.

You can't say he "maxed out" his potential if he didn't fully embrace strength and conditioning. Your physical qualities play a large factor regarding skill acquisition and basketball ability. He never showed things he was probably good at because he wasn't strong and heavy enough to effectively utilize them in games.Conley became a good 3 point shooter because that's the league he plays in. Malone bulked up because that was the league he played in. This isn't the 90's where you want a 6'8 Charles Oakley, Rodman type enforcer. It's much more important to guard in space these days. Be disruptive with your length, which Durant is pretty underrated at. I mean, the guy shoots 55% on middies, which is equivalent to ~37% from 3- meaning it's better because of situations where you don't need a 3, and the mid range is something Durant can get whenever he wants.

I'm not making excuses. I'm just saying, watching Durant I think most here will agree in terms of pure talent and ability dude is top 5 all time or flirting with it. So it's hard to point at that and go "well he should have done xyz different". It's honestly all mental. In every series where he's the favorite(which are a lot becaues he's very good and has always had good help), but winning or losing hinges on him playing well, he simply comes up short.

[KingMambaFan]

Hakeem!

[Im Still Ballin]

Conley became a good 3 point shooter because that's the league he plays in. Malone bulked up because that was the league he played in. This isn't the 90's where you want a 6'8 Charles Oakley, Rodman type enforcer. It's much more important to guard in space these days. Be disruptive with your length, which Durant is pretty underrated at. I mean, the guy shoots 55% on middies, which is equivalent to ~37% from 3- meaning it's better because of situations where you don't need a 3, and the mid range is something Durant can get whenever he wants.

I'm not making excuses. I'm just saying, watching Durant I think most here will agree in terms of pure talent and ability dude is top 5 all time or flirting with it. So it's hard to point at that and go "well he should have done xyz different". It's honestly all mental. In every series where he's the favorite(which are a lot becaues he's very good and has always had good help), but winning or losing hinges on him playing well, he simply comes up short.

And what about Giannis and AD? Two modern players that added 40-50 pounds and reaped the benefits.

[j3lademaster]

And what about Giannis and AD? Two modern players that added 40-50 pounds and reaped the benefits.Durant doesn't have the frame for that. AD and Giannis have naturally wide shoulders, meaning they have the frame to add weight easier.

https://i.insider.com/612d34cd9ef1e50018f8cd24?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELHFxtwX0AAuhnH.jpg:large

https://netswire.usatoday.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2020/12/Kevin-Durant-Sonics-13.jpg?w=1000

And Durant doesn't play the same position. Durant is a tweener forward, who plays the 4 when the other team goes small. What, are you suggesting Durant would have been better if he put on that weight and played center? Strength training effects your shot, which is Durant's biggest asset. If AD and Giannis stayed skinny, they aren't shooting 55% from mid-range and 40% from 3 to make up for that.

[Im Still Ballin]

Now we're just going around back in circles. I already explained why the "he didn't have the frame" argument is bullshit. He reportedly got up to 237 to 242 pounds while still looking lean. Moses Malone was as skinny as he was and had similar looking shoulders but had no issue getting up to an effective 250+ pounds.

KD just didn't like lifting weights. He has said as much. I doubt he was even doing strength and conditioning properly. Some of those NBA S&C coaches are absolute hacks. And strength training doesn't affect your shot - if you do it correctly, which again, most players don't. Karl Malone said weight training made him a better shooter.

Basketball is a sport full of tall, skinny, long-armed individuals that get by on skills, anthropometry, and basic conditioning. I wouldn't ask a baller about strength and conditioning because a lot of them still believe in age-old misconceptions.

And just because KD didn't do something doesn't mean he couldn't. What I see is a 9'2" to 9'3" standing reach and a 7'5"+ wingspan. He could've absolutely found more use for those anthropometric features if he embraced his size through strength and conditioning.

[DMAVS41]

I said he had the talent but not the resume. I am well aware that what he actually did was not top 5 worthy or even close. I am more talking about what I think he could have done had he wanted to. He could have gone after the all- time scoring record. May not have got it but had he tried for it he would have as many scoring titles as he wanted. He could have averaged a good 8+ rebounds as many seasons as he wanted to as well. And in the defensive end, especially before he tore his Achilles, his man defense was rough on any wing he put his mind to stopping other than James. I am not saying that being driven to do a much as he possibly could would have lead to a lot more winning but if he is at this stage of his career with 20 scoring titles, bigger career rebounding numbers and some more mvp awards he at least has a more impressive resume.

I agree that his mentality and lack of team first attitude hurts him...and that he likely did not get the most out of his talents and advantages, but very few players reach their full potential. I don't think an optimal Durant is even better than an optimal KG in terms of talent....

[Real Men Wear Green]

I wasn't criticizing his attitude really. Just my opinion on his talent. I do wish he was more of a competitor so that he wouldn't do something like joining G State the way he did but that's not really about how good he was as a player.

[r0drig0lac]

Is this a joke?
this.

[DMAVS41]

I wasn't criticizing his attitude really. Just my opinion on his talent. I do wish he was more of a competitor so that he wouldn't do something like joining G State the way he did but that's not really about how good he was as a player.

His mentality and lack of team attitude absolutely impacts how good he was/is as a player. To me, talent isn't just about shooting, size, reach...skillset. So many guys have that in spades, look great playing pickup...and then get in an organized game...and it doesn't translate. Just like it is a talent to know when to trust your teammates and when to set the tone. Two things I think Durant has failed to master as a leader.

Now, obviously it has translated for KD and he's one of the best ever....but, for example, playing through physical defense, to me, is a talent both mentally and physically...and I think KD is very much lacking in that regard.

If you want to just talk about who would look the best playing at the park, I agree KD would be picked before most guys in history, but that isn't what the NBA actually is.

[Im Still Ballin]

Imagine Prime Hakeem in today's league. A more reliable Joel Embiid on offense; a more durable, better Anthony Davis on defense.

[Im Still Ballin]

22 points, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, 7 blocks; 9-19 FG.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTVGW4IO5Jw&pp=ygUUaGFrZWVtIG9sYWp1d29uIDE5OTQ%3D

[90sgoat]

Come on!

I don't rank KD above Clyde Drexler.

[Phoenix]

Come on!

I don't rank KD above Clyde Drexler.

Lol, from one extreme to another..

[Bacchus]

Offensively there pretty even. On the defensive on it's Hakeem by mile. Hakeem is all time 10th in career steals. I was looking at the top 50 in steals and no other center is on the list. He also has 600 more blocks than anyone in the league all-time

[tpols]

Now we're just going around back in circles. I already explained why the "he didn't have the frame" argument is bullshit. He reportedly got up to 237 to 242 pounds while still looking lean. Moses Malone was as skinny as he was and had similar looking shoulders but had no issue getting up to an effective 250+ pounds.

KD just didn't like lifting weights. He has said as much. I doubt he was even doing strength and conditioning properly. Some of those NBA S&C coaches are absolute hacks. And strength training doesn't affect your shot - if you do it correctly, which again, most players don't. Karl Malone said weight training made him a better shooter.

Basketball is a sport full of tall, skinny, long-armed individuals that get by on skills, anthropometry, and basic conditioning. I wouldn't ask a baller about strength and conditioning because a lot of them still believe in age-old misconceptions.

And just because KD didn't do something doesn't mean he couldn't. What I see is a 9'2" to 9'3" standing reach and a 7'5"+ wingspan. He could've absolutely found more use for those anthropometric features if he embraced his size through strength and conditioning.

It would've taken away from his elite mobility and shooting prowess though.

Giannis and Moses were two guys who used banging around the rim to be great. That just isn't KDs game.

[SouBeachTalents]

Come on!

I don't rank KD above Clyde Drexler.
Now THAT's retarded.

[Im Still Ballin]

It would've taken away from his elite mobility and shooting prowess though.

Giannis and Moses were two guys who used banging around the rim to be great. That just isn't KDs game.

No, it wouldn't. Proper strength and conditioning training makes you MORE mobile, not less. Ditto for shooting, or any basketball-related skills.

[theman93]

Hakeem and I don’t believe it’s particularly close.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Hakeem and I don’t believe it’s particularly close.

Hakeem has a shitty career, his rings are vastly overrated.

He's another inefficient "skills" guy like Kobe who people overrate

[theman93]

Hakeem has a shitty career, his rings are vastly overrated.

He's another inefficient "skills" guy like Kobe who people overrate

A universally agreed upon top 10-15 player had a shitty career? Lol what?

[AlternativeAcc.]

A universally agreed upon top 10-15 player had a shitty career? Lol what?

Look where he finished in MVP voting most of his career. It's a good indicator of where he fell in the landscape of the league during his time. People look at a 2 year window where he avoided the dynasty Bulls, and didn't play with big names, and assume he's better than he was. His teams were very good and productive in the playoffs despite not being big names.

His overall career doesn't stand up to KD's, and KD was a more dynamic player with much greater takeover ability.

[DMAVS41]

Look where he finished in MVP voting most of his career. It's a good indicator of where he fell in the landscape of the league during his time. People look at a 2 year window where he avoided the dynasty Bulls, and didn't play with big names, and assume he's better than he was. His teams were very good and productive in the playoffs despite not being big names.

His overall career doesn't stand up to KD's, and KD was a more dynamic player with much greater takeover ability.

Nonsense, as usual.

Hakeem was the best player on the 86 Rockets. They made the finals and lost to one of the best teams ever....Hakeem was in his 2nd year. His entire career is is 2 years? You ****ing go nuts over KD's stats....but why not the same for Hakeem?

Hakeem has a 10 year stretch in the playoffs averaging 28/12/4 while providing a level of defense that Durant' can't touch.....even though I do think Hakeem was slightly over-rated defensively. During that stretch he made 3 finals as the best player and won two titles...one ring coming as perhaps the most impressive single star title ever won.

The **** are you talking about?

[SouBeachTalents]

Nonsense, as usual.

Hakeem was the best player on the 86 Rockets. They made the finals and lost to one of the best teams ever....Hakeem was in his 2nd year. His entire career is is 2 years? You ****ing go nuts over KD's stats....but why not the same for Hakeem?

Hakeem has a 10 year stretch in the playoffs averaging 28/12/4 while providing a level of defense that Durant' can't touch.....even though I do think Hakeem was slightly over-rated defensively. During that stretch he made 3 finals as the best player and won two titles...one ring coming as perhaps the most impressive single star title ever won.

The **** are you talking about?
KD’s titles > Hakeem’s.

[AlternativeAcc.]

KD’s titles > Hakeem’s.

This..

[theman93]

Look where he finished in MVP voting most of his career. It's a good indicator of where he fell in the landscape of the league during his time. People look at a 2 year window where he avoided the dynasty Bulls, and didn't play with big names, and assume he's better than he was. His teams were very good and productive in the playoffs despite not being big names.

His overall career doesn't stand up to KD's, and KD was a more dynamic player with much greater takeover ability.

So finishing top 1-7 in MVP voting for the majority of his career is shitty? LOL are you retarded? He literally walked in to the league his rookie year and garnered MVP points, then followed it up his sophomore season and finished 4th in total voting.

This is such a terrible argument anyways. Kevin Durant finished 9th, 7th, and 8th in MVP voting from 2017-19. Are you really prepared to debate he wasn't even a top 5 player when he was on the Warriors?

[Micku]

Imo, KD has more consistent and longevity play. Granted, the era makes it easier to be efficient, play longer, and have better training, medicine, and nutrition.

But prime-wise, I think Hakeem was more impactful. I think he was unlucky in that he didn't have more talent around him. His defense was more important than his offense, and his offense was scary. But he took some difficult shots, but he made'em.

He did have Barkely in 97, but he wasn't the same.

I would still take Hakeem. I think Hakeem peaked higher. I can see why ppl would take KD tho. KD's that good.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Imo, KD has more consistent and longevity play. Granted, the era makes it easier to be efficient, play longer, and have better training, medicine, and nutrition.

But prime-wise, I think Hakeem was more impactful. I think he was unlucky in that he didn't have more talent around him. His defense was more important than his offense, and his offense was scary. But he took some difficult shots, but he made'em.

He did have Barkely in 97, but he wasn't the same.

I would still take Hakeem. I think Hakeem peaked higher. I can see why ppl would take KD tho. KD's that good.

That's fair if you think he peaked higher. I think KD's peak was better... Best scorer in the world.. go-to scorer, insanely clutch, elite defender in his own right perfectly suited for his era... 35/8/5 in the finals... beast mode.

[Micku]

That's fair if you think he peaked higher. I think KD's peak was better... Best scorer in the world.. go-to scorer, insanely clutch, elite defender in his own right perfectly suited for his era... 35/8/5 in the finals... beast mode.

Yeah man. I think they are around the same tier. But KD is one of the GOAT scorers for sure. Even this year in the POs, bad year, he still manage to score 29 ppg on 60% overall. Denver played him well, but he still got his points.

I just think the combination of Hakeem defense and offense pull him ahead in terms of peak for me. And he done it as a center piece of the team. But I won't argue much cuz I think KD is right there.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yeah man. I think they are around the same tier. But KD is one of the GOAT scorers for sure. Even this year in the POs, bad year, he still manage to score 29 ppg on 60% overall. Denver played him well, but he still got his points.

I just think the combination of Hakeem defense and offense pull him ahead in terms of peak for me. And he done it as a center piece of the team. But I won't argue much cuz I think KD is right there.



say what

[plowking]

Imo, KD has more consistent and longevity play. Granted, the era makes it easier to be efficient, play longer, and have better training, medicine, and nutrition.

But prime-wise, I think Hakeem was more impactful. I think he was unlucky in that he didn't have more talent around him. His defense was more important than his offense, and his offense was scary. But he took some difficult shots, but he made'em.

He did have Barkely in 97, but he wasn't the same.

I would still take Hakeem. I think Hakeem peaked higher. I can see why ppl would take KD tho. KD's that good.

Hakeem has more All NBA selections that KD - so longevity wise - Hakeem has been elite just as long...

Not to mention he was elite on both ends of the court.

[Micku]

say what

29 ppg and 60% TS. Mah bad.

[ArbitraryWater]

29 ppg and 60% TS. Mah bad.

55% this series, 53% after game 1. even less when you remove the stat padding.

[Micku]

Hakeem has more All NBA selections that KD - so longevity wise - Hakeem has been elite just as long...

Not to mention he was elite on both ends of the court.

I feel like context is needed for that one. KD wasn't on any all-nba teams in 21, yet he was definitely one of the best players. Arguably best in the world at least that year. His toe was on the line, so he screwed up that. And he isn't on all-nba this year, again due to injuries.

But even being in the all-nba team doesn't mean you play the same lvl of course. Sabonis made all nba this year, but is he better than KD? Better than Booker? Better than Kawhi? Of course you have Embiid vs Jokic convo, but that's another story.

Hakeem made the first team in 97, right? But I don't think he was better than Shaq that year. Shaq just missed games cuz he was hurt. Patrick Ewing got it over than Shaq too, and definitely wasn't better than Shaq. And is Hakeem 97 just as good as KD is now? Even respectively compared to their eras? You might be able to argue it, but I personally don't think so. I think KD peak was 2021 in terms of POs. But I think he is aging more gracefully. He isn't that far away from it. But it's hard to tell cuz this era is much more offensive-friendly. Hakeem wasn't as good compared to his prime, but was still elite. Defense was still there tho.

[AlternativeAcc.]

55% this series, 53% after game 1. even less when you remove the stat padding.

That's Hakeems career playoff efficiency.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I feel like context is needed for that one. KD wasn't on any all-nba teams in 21, yet he was definitely one of the best players. Arguably best in the world at least that year. His toe was on the line, so he screwed up that. And he isn't on all-nba this year, again due to injuries.

But even being in the all-nba team doesn't mean you play the same lvl of course. Sabonis made all nba this year, but is he better than KD? Better than Booker? Better than Kawhi? Of course you have Embiid vs Jokic convo, but that's another story.

Hakeem made the first team in 97, right? But I don't think he was better than Shaq that year. Shaq just missed games cuz he was hurt. Patrick Ewing got it over than Shaq too, and definitely wasn't better than Shaq. And is Hakeem 97 just as good as KD is now? Even respectively compared to their eras? You might be able to argue it, but I personally don't think so. I think KD peak was 2021 in terms of POs. But I think he is aging more gracefully. He isn't that far away from it. But it's hard to tell cuz this era is much more offensive-friendly. Hakeem wasn't as good compared to his prime, but was still elite. Defense was still there tho.

Durant was literally MVP favorite before getting injured this year and a DPOY candidate. Led 12 game win streak with Nets and undefeated with Suns.

Didn't make all NBA.

Good post

[3ba11]

Durant's career was thrown off the "decision" that robbed him of winning organically with baby Wesbrick in 2012 and also stopped organic chips from Duncan in 2013 or Curry in 2016.

What would Durant's career look like if he wins with Westbrick in 2012? They probably get a bunch of studs to join them in OKC since it's a great organization.

So it's hard to gauge Durant's career when he took 6 years to respond to unprecedented, deck-stacking from the main rival industry competitor (Lebron).

People claim that Durant had an unprecedented advantage in 2017, but Lebron had an unprecedented advantage for the 6 years before that, which yielded 3 chips in 6 years and preseason favorite status for 6 straight years (11-16').

So Lebron's unprecedented advantage lasted twice as long and stopped KD, Duncan, and Curry from winning organically.

Essentially, Durant was merely breaking Lebron's record for deck-stacking but unfortunately he did so 6 years too late.

[Micku]

55% this series, 53% after game 1. even less when you remove the stat padding.

The Denver series, yeah. But not for the playoffs. KD was amazing in the Clippers series. He had 68% TS with like 28 ppg on 52%.

If you want to be more critical of him with Denver go for it. He had a tough series. Missed a bunch open shots. Denver would sometimes double Booker, leaving KD open. KD still got his points tho. But I feel like you also got to give credit to Denver and Aaron Gordon. He contested a lot of KD shots well and played physically with him.

You can also say that Clippers with Kawhi would slow down KD too.

But one thing that separates the superstars from the rest is consistency. I feel like KD has the consistency of getting his points. The efficiency may drop. But every star goes through that. But I think his impact isn't as good as some other stars to me. Sometimes it's the little things. Sometimes it's luck. But bottom line is that KD didn't perform as well, and Denver was the better team. Booker playing like the 2k sliders were all the way up was the reason why it wasn't a sweep.

[ArbitraryWater]

The Denver series, yeah. But not for the playoffs. KD was amazing in the Clippers series. He had 68% TS with like 28 ppg on 52%.

If you want to be more critical of him with Denver go for it. He had a tough series. Missed a bunch open shots. Denver would sometimes double Booker, leaving KD open. KD still got his points tho. But I feel like you also got to give credit to Denver and Aaron Gordon. He contested a lot of KD shots well and played physically with him.

You can also say that Clippers with Kawhi would slow down KD too.

But one thing that separates the superstars from the rest is consistency. I feel like KD has the consistency of getting his points. The efficiency may drop. But every star goes through that. But I think his impact isn't as good as some other stars to me. Sometimes it's the little things. Sometimes it's luck. But bottom line is that KD didn't perform as well, and Denver was the better team. Booker playing like the 2k sliders were all the way up was the reason why it wasn't a sweep.

lol clips missed their 2 best perimeter defenders. Westbrook was their nr. 1 option.

congrats that he played well in a 4-1 first round.

he impacted the WCSF not one bit.

[Micku]

lol clips missed their 2 best perimeter defenders. Westbrook was their nr. 1 option.

congrats that he played well in a 4-1 first round.

he impacted the WCSF not one bit.

It's better than shitting the bed lol! Imagine if the suns would've got upsetted? Or played like Embiid is rn? Or how he played last year?

You're right, he didn't impact the Denver series that much.
He helped a lot and I think Booker performance really overshadowed him.
But there weren't going to win that series. Denver was the better team with the best player.

[HighFlyer23]

Hakeem Olajuwon is a man

KD is a little bitch

Let’s keep it sane

[plowking]

I feel like context is needed for that one. KD wasn't on any all-nba teams in 21, yet he was definitely one of the best players. Arguably best in the world at least that year. His toe was on the line, so he screwed up that. And he isn't on all-nba this year, again due to injuries.

But even being in the all-nba team doesn't mean you play the same lvl of course. Sabonis made all nba this year, but is he better than KD? Better than Booker? Better than Kawhi? Of course you have Embiid vs Jokic convo, but that's another story.

Hakeem made the first team in 97, right? But I don't think he was better than Shaq that year. Shaq just missed games cuz he was hurt. Patrick Ewing got it over than Shaq too, and definitely wasn't better than Shaq. And is Hakeem 97 just as good as KD is now? Even respectively compared to their eras? You might be able to argue it, but I personally don't think so. I think KD peak was 2021 in terms of POs. But I think he is aging more gracefully. He isn't that far away from it. But it's hard to tell cuz this era is much more offensive-friendly. Hakeem wasn't as good compared to his prime, but was still elite. Defense was still there tho.

Sure - valid point if we already didn't know who they were as players. The point is - Hakeem has longevity and has every bit been as elite as long as Durant has.

[Micku]

Sure - valid point if we already didn't know who they were as players. The point is - Hakeem has longevity and has every bit been as elite as long as Durant has.

Fair enough I suppose.

It's hard to compare due to different eras and positions. I feel like Hakeem if he were to play now would be able to play for longer anyway. Probably would be more effective. I would argue that KD lvl of play was higher in a decade-long stretch, but I think Hakeem peaked higher. But eh, it's hard to compare to the eras. And it's true that Hakeem was elite for a while. Definitely the best center in his position in his era for longer than KD was in his position, but there is some other context involved like the lvl of competition in that position. Not that Hakeem lacked that lvl of competition.

We'll see how long KD can stay elite.

[Full Court]

LeBron

Lebron has no case for being ranked higher than Hakeem.

Nice try though, Dudley.

[HighFlyer23]

Fair enough I suppose.

It's hard to compare due to different eras and positions. I feel like Hakeem if he were to play now would be able to play for longer anyway. Probably would be more effective. I would argue that KD lvl of play was higher in a decade-long stretch, but I think Hakeem peaked higher. But eh, it's hard to compare to the eras. And it's true that Hakeem was elite for a while. Definitely the best center in his position in his era for longer than KD was in his position, but there is some other context involved like the lvl of competition in that position. Not that Hakeem lacked that lvl of competition.

We'll see how long KD can stay elite.


Elite at what?

Hakeem led his team to multiple championships. He’s in the elite of the elite for that feat alone.

KD has never done that and never will. Until you defeat the competition as the leader and best player on your team you’re not truly elite.

He can put up cute stats but he cannot carry or force his way to victories like Hakeem, MJ, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Kareem, Magic, Lebron

[Micku]

Elite at what?

Hakeem led his team to multiple championships. He’s in the elite of the elite for that feat alone.

KD has never done that and never will. Until you defeat the competition as the leader and best player on your team you’re not truly elite.

What? You don't consider Jokic elite right now? Tatum? Giannis pre 2021? Luka?

I understand what you're saying. And I agree that Hakeem was the centerpiece to the title runs while KD wasn't with GSW. And if that's your criteria, so be it.

But you can see players who are elite without winning as the leader imo. MJ was elite from 88-90. The best player in the league in those years and among the best stretch of high quality play in nba history imo. But he didn't win. Hakeem was elite prior to the championships. He just didn't win. Barkley best play was in philly for sure. He just didn't win. Elite doesn't mean best in the world. But you're top tier.

[j3lademaster]

Fair enough I suppose.

It's hard to compare due to different eras and positions. I feel like Hakeem if he were to play now would be able to play for longer anyway. Probably would be more effective. I would argue that KD lvl of play was higher in a decade-long stretch, but I think Hakeem peaked higher. But eh, it's hard to compare to the eras. And it's true that Hakeem was elite for a while. Definitely the best center in his position in his era for longer than KD was in his position, but there is some other context involved like the lvl of competition in that position. Not that Hakeem lacked that lvl of competition.

We'll see how long KD can stay elite.Good post. Hakeem would play a face up game if we came in today. Like Giannis but less physical and much deadlier from mid-range. He'd have even better handles since he'd focus on that aspect more and he'll probably have a 3 point shot in his arsenal as well, as we see some older cross era bigs pick it up as the style of play in the league changed(Horford and Lopez come to mind). It seems bigs with decent mid range touch are typically able to step out to 3 if you make them practice that as part of their game.

And yeah, both played with insane competition at their respective positions. Hakeem with Ewing, Shaq, Drob while KD has to duke it out with Lebron, Kawhi and PG. All-NBA's obviously coming harder for centers since there can be only one.

[j3lademaster]

Now we're just going around back in circles. I already explained why the "he didn't have the frame" argument is bullshit. He reportedly got up to 237 to 242 pounds while still looking lean. Moses Malone was as skinny as he was and had similar looking shoulders but had no issue getting up to an effective 250+ pounds.

KD just didn't like lifting weights. He has said as much. I doubt he was even doing strength and conditioning properly. Some of those NBA S&C coaches are absolute hacks. And strength training doesn't affect your shot - if you do it correctly, which again, most players don't. Karl Malone said weight training made him a better shooter.

Basketball is a sport full of tall, skinny, long-armed individuals that get by on skills, anthropometry, and basic conditioning. I wouldn't ask a baller about strength and conditioning because a lot of them still believe in age-old misconceptions.

And just because KD didn't do something doesn't mean he couldn't. What I see is a 9'2" to 9'3" standing reach and a 7'5"+ wingspan. He could've absolutely found more use for those anthropometric features if he embraced his size through strength and conditioning.How so? This was your original quote:


Adding an extra 40-50 high-quality pounds to his frame would unlock so many things for him. But he's one of those guys who thinks weights slow you down and cause injuries.

Behind the logic of "hey it really helped AD, Giannis and Moses's careers, so why not KD's?"

That would put KD in the ~270-280 range. All muscle or not, he's going to lose his ability to change direction and stop on a dime for pullups. And i'm sure you know just because two people are similar sizes and bodytypes doesn't always translate to the same output of strength. Durant can gain that weight and lose his bread and butter(being able to move like a 6'5 shooting guard while being near 7'), while not being as strong as Giannis to boot. Giannis otoh, has nothing to lose and everything to gain by putting on the muscle, unless you think Giannis would have been better served coming off screens for catch and shoot 3's and taking hesi pullups.

You weren't completely wrong about the strength training. That's important. But you're emphasizing all of the upside without the downside. Stronger legs = ability to carry more upper body weight while helping with end to end speed and vert. But all that weight takes away from your ability to stop on a dime, change direction and first step. How many elite athletes at 255-260+ are/were elite in those traits?

Anyway, my original point is Durant as is is already an arguable top 5 all time in terms of talent and ability. I doubt anyone here would deny that, so saying Durant should have made a change that drastic is dealing with too many known unknowns and unknown unknowns. It's like asking to hit in blackjack when you already have 20.

[Im Still Ballin]

How so? This was your original quote:


Now we're just going around back in circles. I already explained why the "he didn't have the frame" argument is bullshit. He reportedly got up to 237 to 242 pounds while still looking lean. Moses Malone was as skinny as he was and had similar looking shoulders but had no issue getting up to an effective 250+ pounds.

KD just didn't like lifting weights. He has said as much. I doubt he was even doing strength and conditioning properly. Some of those NBA S&C coaches are absolute hacks. And strength training doesn't affect your shot - if you do it correctly, which again, most players don't. Karl Malone said weight training made him a better shooter.

Basketball is a sport full of tall, skinny, long-armed individuals that get by on skills, anthropometry, and basic conditioning. I wouldn't ask a baller about strength and conditioning because a lot of them still believe in age-old misconceptions.

And just because KD didn't do something doesn't mean he couldn't. What I see is a 9'2" to 9'3" standing reach and a 7'5"+ wingspan. He could've absolutely found more use for those anthropometric features if he embraced his size through strength and conditioning.


That Durant and Moses Malone's bodies weren't all that different. Both came into the league around 6'9" to 6'10" and 210-215 pounds. Both had long skinny limbs and narrow-looking shoulders. There really isn't that much different regarding their "frames."


Behind the logic of "hey it really helped AD, Giannis and Moses's careers, so why not KD's?"

That would put KD in the ~270-280 range. All muscle or not, he's going to lose his ability to change direction and stop on a dime for pullups. And i'm sure you know just because two people are similar sizes and bodytypes doesn't always translate to the same output of strength. Durant can gain that weight and lose his bread and butter(being able to move like a 6'5 shooting guard while being near 7'), while not being as strong as Giannis to boot. Giannis otoh, has nothing to lose and everything to gain by putting on the muscle, unless you think Giannis would have been better served coming off screens for catch and shoot 3's and taking hesi pullups.

You weren't completely wrong about the strength training. That's important. But you're emphasizing all of the upside without the downside. Stronger legs = ability to carry more upper body weight while helping with end to end speed and vert. But all that weight takes away from your ability to stop on a dime, change direction and first step. How many elite athletes at 255-260+ are/were elite in those traits?

Anyway, my original point is Durant as is is already an arguable top 5 all time in terms of talent and ability. I doubt anyone here would deny that, so saying Durant should have made a change that drastic is dealing with too many known unknowns and unknown unknowns. It's like asking to hit in blackjack when you already have 20.

I meant 40-50 pounds from his draft weight. So that'd be around 250-260 pounds; the same weight range as AD, Giannis, and Moses.

As far as the rest of your post, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm of the belief that, when done correctly, strength and conditioning won't take away those athletic elements you mentioned. The agility package: lateral movement, change of pace (acceleration and deceleration), change of direction speed; the fluidity.

In my opinion, most basketball players don't do it correctly. So they get slower, more injury prone, less agile, and stiffer - more mechanical in their movements. They lose the fluidity, durability, and athletic package they had when they were younger and lighter.

I understand my critique is coming from my perspective - my knowledge and experience regarding strength and conditioning. I also acknowledge that, if KD did try to do as I'm suggesting, he probably would've done it poorly, given questionable S&C coaches. He most likely would've lost fluidity, agility, and speed.

I'm coming from a hypothetical best-case scenario. Not a realistic one that acknowledges the people and trainers he was around and his own personality traits.

I'm just saying what he could've been based on what he was working with. If he had an A1 strength and conditioning guy and he was 100% receptive to the training and embraced it. Which we know he didn't in reality.

My criticism of KD also obviously extends to his playstyle, which is greatly influenced by his size and athleticism. I think the added size and strength would've not only improved how he did play but also how he could've played.

He fully embraced his perimeter game, but he never grew into an interior one. Had the physical tools to do it is all I'm saying.

[HighFlyer23]

What? You don't consider Jokic elite right now? Tatum? Giannis pre 2021? Luka?

I understand what you're saying. And I agree that Hakeem was the centerpiece to the title runs while KD wasn't with GSW. And if that's your criteria, so be it.

But you can see players who are elite without winning as the leader imo. MJ was elite from 88-90. The best player in the league in those years and among the best stretch of high quality play in nba history imo. But he didn't win. Hakeem was elite prior to the championships. He just didn't win. Barkley best play was in philly for sure. He just didn't win. Elite doesn't mean best in the world. But you're top tier.

Elite as of now are guys like Giannis, Lebron and Steph

The rest are a step below and want to get to that level

Leading your team to championships puts you in that supreme class. There is nothing above that. They are all great players but winning a title volts them to true elite status.

[Lebron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXb7dn7yKWk&t=115s from 1994 to 1995 Hakeem was the best player in the NBA. It's very unfortunate that after he was injured in the 1996 NBA playoffs Hakeem was no longer the same player who beat Shaq who beat the Bulls in the 1995 NBA playoffs. , Malone and Stockton, Barkley, Ewing, Payton and Kemp in the playoffs.

[HighFlyer23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXb7dn7yKWk&t=115s from 1994 to 1995 Hakeem was the best player in the NBA. It's very unfortunate that after he was injured in the 1996 NBA playoffs Hakeem was no longer the same player who beat Shaq who beat the Bulls in the 1995 NBA playoffs. , Malone and Stockton, Barkley, Ewing, Payton and Kemp in the playoffs.
Fuvk off you dirty midget