Jokic is starting his GOAT run now

[StrongLurk]

Dude will win a ring/FMVP this year, and silence all the dumbass haters who thought this guy wasn't the best in the world.

And you know what, he may win a third MVP and go back-to-back with another ring/FMVP next year.

Dude is a massive Center and freakish combo between Dirk/Bird with Nash passing ability. :biggums:

Jokic over the last three regular seasons.

31.9 PER, 66.8 TS, 12.9 BPM. - a three year stretch like this is pretty much only matched by MJ and Lebron.

Jokic over the last three playoffs.

31.9 PER, 61.5 TS, 11.7 BPM - again this is MJ/Lebron level.

Jokic's WHOLE playoff career.

59 games - 29.1 PER, 61.1 TS, 10.3 BPM.

This dude has been an all-time superstar over these last five years. People don't want to admit it yet because he hasn't won a ring, but he will this year.

[ImKobe]

Oh boy the overreactions

[AlternativeAcc.]

LeBron is still the best in the world.

Jokic is knocking on the door though.

[SaltyMeatballs]

And you know what, he may win a third MVP and go back-to-back with another ring/FMVP next year.

Alright slow down bud

[StrongLurk]

Oh boy the overreactions

The league isn't stacked with any teams these last few years. A lot of really good teams, but each year is relatively open compared to the past few decades.

As long as Jokic/Murray are healthy, they should be title favorites.

[ImKobe]

The league isn't stacked with any teams these last few years. A lot of really good teams, but each year is relatively open compared to the past few decades.

As long as Jokic/Murray are healthy, they should be title favorites.

Denver doesn't have the depth to be considered that good IMO. Also a poor defensive team. Those kind of teams don't dominate.

[NuggetsFan]

I mean he has been for years now. It likely won't matter because he landed in Denver. He was without his 2nd/3rd best player the past two playoffs. No other star would ever the expectations to win a ring like that. He hasn't played with another All-Star his entire career. He doesn't care about his legacy/awards etc. like he coasted the entire finish to the season instead of aggressively going after his 3rd MVP. I love Murray and playoff Murray is a beast but he can be very inconsistent.

If Jokic landed somewhere where he got to play with a Kobe/Wade/stacked Laker team/stacked Celtic team etc. than yeah we'd be absolutely talking about the potential GOAT right now.

[dazzer87]

Relax its only the first game of the series….:lol

[3ba11]

I like how the game played out because Denver has a good idea what to expect in Game 2

[tpols]

I like how the game played out because Denver has a good idea what to expect in Game 2

Aka don't let Reaves shoot 3s.

[kawhileonard2]

LeBron is still the best in the world.

Jokic is knocking on the door though.

Not even close. Missed playoffs last year and lost in round 1 as favorites. Despite having two other top 75 players alltime with him.

[Full Court]

Jokic is better than prime Lebron.

[StrongLurk]

Relax its only the first game of the series….:lol

This run has been building over the last 3 years...but because NBA fans are stupid, they need to see Jokic win a ring first before giving him any legit credit. This is why I'm saying his GOAT run starts now, because the Nuggets will win the chip this year. I've been hyping Jokic up since his first playoff run in 2019 because it was clear he was a REAL superstar in the making. It's been obvious to see that he is the best player in basketball recently. People wanted to give that title to Giannis or even Curry because they won rings, but Jokic didn't have a healthy team to compete.

Then Jokic legit faced media-fueled racism this year because people wanted to coddle the crying Embiid. People wanted to say Embiid was better than Jokic even though Embiid has NEVER accomplished more than Jokic. Finally enough people are starting to face reality this year than Embiid can't compete with Jokic.

[90sgoat]

I haven't watch Jokic at all this season, so wow am I impressed.

To me it is obvious that he is easily the best player in the league and has taken huge leaps forward, particularly on defense. AD struggled against Jokic's defense and he wasn't a turnstile at all.

We're watching a true all time great, that much I am sure off.

GOAT he won't be, but he might show us what Sabonis the elder might have looked like in the 80s.

The NBA looks bright with the current crop of stars, Giannis, Luka, Jokic, Tatum, Zion, Wemby and others. Great era coming up after a weak era.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic is number 1 all-time in playoff PER by the way.

Dude is so goated. The eye test also shows he is the most skilled offensive center by a good margin, and factually one of the most skilled players of all time while being 7 feet tall.

He can score everywhere on the court at high efficiency and can make every type of pass. Dude is insane.

[Im Still Ballin]

It's great to see big men make a huge comeback over the last half-decade. The last five MVPs have been won by traditional centers and a PF that can't shoot. Hopefully, Wemby and Chet continue the resurgence.

[Jasper]

it'shis year ... hope he gets a ring to honor this great player.

[kawhileonard2]

LeBron is still the best in the world.

Jokic is knocking on the door though.

Lebron wasn't even 2nd team. Couldn't make the playoffs with peak AD, Westbrook, Dwight, Melo last year

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html (Lakers 1st)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html (Lakers 2nd)

[StrongLurk]

One more W until he gets to his first finals. Really hope he wins a ring this year and shuts up all the media/fan morons. Jokic is the most skilled player of all time.

[StrongLurk]

:rockon:

[Axe]

Not a good look amongst those who doubted his team to make the finals. :no:

[StrongLurk]

First 3 finals games for Jokic.

33/14/9 on 59/44/86 splits. If he keeps this up and wins a ring, it might be the best "debut" finals performance since MJ in 91.

[SaltyMeatballs]

First 3 finals games for Jokic.

33/14/9 on 59/44/86 splits. If he keeps this up and wins a ring, it might be the best "debut" finals performance since MJ in 91.

We're watching greatness right in front of our eyes. Jokic is a special breed who should not be taken for granted

[1_BAD_TIGER]

I find it funny how this board just like most of the country are 4 years late to see Jokic's greatness, no wonder the country is going to S**T, with all the weak brined idiots walking around.

[Manny98]

Statistically he's had a season as good as anyone ever

Offensively I think he's better than LeBron and MJ, Curry is the only player that you can argue is as impactful on the offensive end of the floor

What he's doing is absolutely unfair, he has zero weaknesses offensively

[kawhileonard2]

Statistically he's had a season as good as anyone ever

Offensively I think he's better than LeBron and MJ, Curry is the only player that you can argue is as impactful on the offensive end of the floor

What he's doing is absolutely unfair, he has zero weaknesses offensively

Gotta consider rule changes as well. Never led the league in scoring either.

[StrongLurk]

Dude will win a ring/FMVP this year, and silence all the dumbass haters who thought this guy wasn't the best in the world.

And you know what, he may win a third MVP and go back-to-back with another ring/FMVP next year.

Dude is a massive Center and freakish combo between Dirk/Bird with Nash passing ability. :biggums:

Jokic over the last three regular seasons.

31.9 PER, 66.8 TS, 12.9 BPM. - a three year stretch like this is pretty much only matched by MJ and Lebron.

Jokic over the last three playoffs.

31.9 PER, 61.5 TS, 11.7 BPM - again this is MJ/Lebron level.

Jokic's WHOLE playoff career.

59 games - 29.1 PER, 61.1 TS, 10.3 BPM.

This dude has been an all-time superstar over these last five years. People don't want to admit it yet because he hasn't won a ring, but he will this year.

Bolding this in my OP. Ready to see Jokic win another MVP, ring, and FMVP next year.

[jayfan]

Gotta consider rule changes as well. Never led the league in scoring either.

Which rule changes?

[LeGoat4Life]

If the joker wins next year he will already be ahead of Lebron all time already

Achieving a 2peat. Something Lebron has never done

[Legend248]

LeBron is still the best in the world.

Jokic is knocking on the door though.

you are a ****ing dumbass mother ****er. I swear ALL bron fans are burger flipping peasants

[FultzNationRISE]

If the joker wins next year he will already be ahead of Lebron all time already

Achieving a 2peat. Something Lebron has never done


:wtf:


Are you a stupid ****ing **** sucker ******?? YES YOU ARE.

[FilmyCogTurner]

With basketball you can speculate on what a player could be if they had more help or a healthy team but at the end of the day you still need to confirm it before making any type of declarations on a players greatness. How many times have we seen great players on great teams come up short? Plenty. Basketball is an odd sport where its complicated and easy all at once but that to me is what makes it the greatest sport on earth.

[Goldrush25]

If the joker wins next year he will already be ahead of Lebron all time already

Achieving a 2peat. Something Lebron has never done

It's scary that people that say these type of things are allowed to drive and operate other heavy machinery.

[LeGoat4Life]

:wtf:


Are you a stupid ****ing **** sucker ******?? YES YOU ARE.


Remind us when did Lebron achieve a 2peat with full seasons?

KD curry all did it easily

[StrongLurk]

Dude will win a ring/FMVP this year, and silence all the dumbass haters who thought this guy wasn't the best in the world.

And you know what, he may win a third MVP and go back-to-back with another ring/FMVP next year.

Dude is a massive Center and freakish combo between Dirk/Bird with Nash passing ability. :biggums:

Jokic over the last three regular seasons.

31.9 PER, 66.8 TS, 12.9 BPM. - a three year stretch like this is pretty much only matched by MJ and Lebron.

Jokic over the last three playoffs.

31.9 PER, 61.5 TS, 11.7 BPM - again this is MJ/Lebron level.

Jokic's WHOLE playoff career.

59 games - 29.1 PER, 61.1 TS, 10.3 BPM.

This dude has been an all-time superstar over these last five years. People don't want to admit it yet because he hasn't won a ring, but he will this year.

Bumping this OP which was before the Nugs won the chip last year. Not only did I say Jokic would win the chip/FMVP, but I said Jokic would also win a third MVP and go back-to-back with another ring/FMVP this year. And I still stand by that.

[dazzer87]

Relax its only 1-0 in Oct

[StrongLurk]

Relax its only 1-0 in Oct

Well, I made the thread five months ago...it's been long enough for me :oldlol:

[StrongLurk]

One more ring/FMVP and Jokic is easily a "larry bird" level player, making him top 10 all time.

[StrongLurk]

Crazy to think Jokic should really have won MVP last year and be well on his way to a 4th MVP in a row...

[tpols]

It's amazing how this dude is acting like he called something when it was already well known how great Jokic was.

Would be like saying "I told yall MJ was GOAT in 1993! I told yall!"

https://media1.tenor.com/m/bD9vHNiR1rQAAAAd/boom-mind-blown.gif

[John8204]

One more ring/FMVP and Jokic is easily a "larry bird" level player, making him top 10 all time.

With 1 ring? I think Jokic is in line with Rick Barry and Dr. J...this is a must win season for him though. Bird has I believe at this point in his career 3 MVP's and 3 MVP runner ups along with 3 rings and another finals appearance.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's amazing how this dude is acting like he called something when it was already well known how great Jokic was.

Would be like saying "I told yall MJ was GOAT in 1993! I told yall!"

https://media1.tenor.com/m/bD9vHNiR1rQAAAAd/boom-mind-blown.gif
:oldlol:

Bro, I was calling Mahomes the GOAT way back in 2023.

[StrongLurk]

It's amazing how this dude is acting like he called something when it was already well known how great Jokic was.

Would be like saying "I told yall MJ was GOAT in 1993! I told yall!"

https://media1.tenor.com/m/bD9vHNiR1rQAAAAd/boom-mind-blown.gif

Uh, this thread was made before Jokic had won a ring and in my OP I predicted him to go back-to-back with MVPs, rings, and FMVPs. That is FAR from a guarantee.

Read the OP again and look at the date. Even the numbers I posted are outdated and they are actually even BETTER when you factor in Jok's playoff run.

[StrongLurk]

With 1 ring? I think Jokic is in line with Rick Barry and Dr. J...this is a must win season for him though. Bird has I believe at this point in his career 3 MVP's and 3 MVP runner ups along with 3 rings and another finals appearance.

What do you mean with one ring? If Jokic wins again then he has two rings/two FMVPs.

[StrongLurk]

Bumping Jokic's GOAT run. I made this thread last year before he won a ring, and I said not only would he win (in 2023), but he'd go back to back and win this year too.

Jokic has lead the league in PER, Win Shares, Win Shares/48, BPM, AND VORP in EACH of the last four seasons. He also led is TS% last year and has been top 10 every year over the last four years.

Honestly no one has advanced stats over a 4-year period like Jokic except for MJ and Lebron. I still think Jokic is getting underrated. He doesn't get anywhere CLOSE to the media or fan attention that MJ and Lebron got.

[StrongLurk]

It's amazing how this dude is acting like he called something when it was already well known how great Jokic was.

Would be like saying "I told yall MJ was GOAT in 1993! I told yall!"



I made this thread before Jokic won anything. So actually it would be like me saying MJ is starting his GOAT run at the start of the 1991 playoffs.

[tontoz]

I made this thread before Jokic won anything. So actually it would be like me saying MJ is starting his GOAT run at the start of the 1991 playoffs.


You started this thead on 5/16/23. Jokic already had 2 MVPs and his two best teammates were finally healthy for the first time since the bubble AND they had already reached the WCF against a play in team.

You weren't exactly going out on a limb predicting success for Jokic and Denver.

[StrongLurk]

You started this thead on 5/16/23. Jokic already had 2 MVPs and his two best teammates were finally healthy for the first time since the bubble AND they had already reached the WCF against a play in team.

You weren't exactly going out on a limb predicting success for Jokic and Denver.

Bro I am literally predicting a GOAT run. That is FAR more than just saying "Jokic and Denver will have success".

I am saying Jokic is starting his run that will get him firmly placed in the top 10 of all time. I never made a thread like this for Steph, KD, Kawhi, or whatever all time elite superstars over the last decade outside of Lebron. I think Jokic is THE next player in line after Lebron for real GOAT discussions (Steph and KD messed up both of their chances).

I've made threads way back in 2021/2022 claiming that Jokic is actually underrated and saying he is "just an MVP winner" is selling him short. Even last year, we saw plenty of people claiming Jokic was one of the worst MVP winners ever which is ridiculous.

[tontoz]

Bro I am literally predicting a GOAT run. That is FAR more than just saying "Jokic and Denver will have success".

I am saying Jokic is starting his run that will get him firmly placed in the top 10 of all time. I never made a thread like this for Steph, KD, Kawhi, or whatever all time elite superstars over the last decade outside of Lebron. I think Jokic is THE next player in line after Lebron for real GOAT discussions (Steph and KD messed up both of their chances).

I've made threads way back in 2021/2022 claiming that Jokic is actually underrated and saying he is "just an MVP winner" is selling him short. Even last year, we saw plenty of people claiming Jokic was one of the worst MVP winners ever which is ridiculous.



You can't begin a GOAT run AFTER back to back MVPs sitting in the WCF as a heavy favorite. The run was already well on it's way.

If you had made the prediction during the bubble then you would get some credit.

[SaltyMeatballs]

I'll give you credit OP

If you look at my response in the first page, I told you to slow down when you said "And you know what, he may win a third MVP and go back-to-back with another ring/FMVP next year."

He's already locked in for that 3rd MVP this season, and Nuggets are probably the biggest threat to come out West. With 3 MVPs, 2 rings, and 2 FMVPs, we'll need to start talking about who Jokic can replace in the top 10 all-time list.

[StrongLurk]

I'll give you credit OP

If you look at my response in the first page, I told you to slow down when you said "And you know what, he may win a third MVP and go back-to-back with another ring/FMVP next year."

He's already locked in for that 3rd MVP this season, and Nuggets are probably the biggest threat to come out West. With 3 MVPs, 2 rings, and 2 FMVPs, we'll need to start talking about who Jokic can replace in the top 10 all-time list.

Exactly.

Let's be completely real here - he is a better basketball player than Larry Bird. He doesn't have the legacy yet, but he is straight up better than Larry on the court in my opinion.

[StrongLurk]

You can't begin a GOAT run AFTER back to back MVPs sitting in the WCF as a heavy favorite. The run was already well on it's way.

If you had made the prediction during the bubble then you would get some credit.

No one else made the prediction. NO ONE. Show me where anyone in the entire world or media says Jokic is starting a GOAT run last year.

Jokic is the hill I am dying on. He is that good in my opinion.

[tontoz]

No one else made the prediction. NO ONE. Show me where anyone in the entire world or media says Jokic is starting a GOAT run last year.

Jokic is the hill I am dying on. He is that good in my opinion.

Of course nobody is going to say that he is starting a run after winning back to back MVPs lol. That makes no sense.

That is like saying you are starting your road trip to Florida in Tenn when you actually left from MD.

[tpols]

Exactly.

Let's be completely real here - he is a better basketball player than Larry Bird. He doesn't have the legacy yet, but he is straight up better than Larry on the court in my opinion.

I called him a 7 foot Larry Bird way before this thread.

You wrote this in MAY 2023!

:roll:

[SATAN]

I don't understand how people say the current era is weak blah blah and then go and say Jokic is one the goats all of a sudden.

Jokic would be an afterthought if prime LeBron was in the league currently.

[StrongLurk]

I called him a 7 foot Larry Bird way before this thread.

You wrote this in MAY 2023!

:roll:

I made a thread about Jokic and Bird in September 2021.

In fact, you were the first response in that thread and said "You're comparing statistics from entirely different circumstances. Jokic is an awesome player, but he isn't as mean as Bird was. Both great players... its just a short sighted comparison given we don't know how Jokic career will pan out"

:lol

[tontoz]

Strangely enough I was the next post in that thread.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497681-Would-Bird-basically-be-a-slightly-shorter-Jokic-in-this-era-(2017-now)


Jokic does remind me of Bird. Their games are pretty similar. Jokic benefits from his extra size and the better spacing in this era.

In past I think jokic was too unselfish. This year he finally became more aggressive looking for his shot. Quite an impressive season and fun guy to watch.

[SouBeachTalents]

To reiterate the other points that have been made, this thread was made after Jokic had already won b2b MVP's, and let's be real, he should've won 3 in a row if not for a late media push to give it to Embiid. He did this while putting up historically great production and advanced metrics 3 straight years. And this thread was made literally days after he had put up a 35/13/10 on 66%TS series against Phoenix. He also had a healthy team around him for the first time in years. I hate to break it to OP, but he's not going to get the credit he so clearly thinks he deserves for making this thread :lol

[SATAN]

If Luka doesn't get injured he will win the MVP next season because people feel sorry for him putting up (some) nice looking numbers but not getting the recognition Jokic gets. Bookmark it. I am right. In fact, I will bookmark it myself.

[kawhileonard2]

To reiterate the other points that have been made, this thread was made after Jokic had already won b2b MVP's, and let's be real, he should've won 3 in a row if not for a late media push to give it to Embiid. He did this while putting up historically great production and advanced metrics 3 straight years. And this thread was made literally days after he had put up a 35/13/10 on 66%TS series against Phoenix. He also had a healthy team around him for the first time in years. I hate to break it to OP, but he's not going to get the credit he so clearly thinks he deserves for making this thread :lol

He won MVP's as the 6th seed.

[Axe]

I don't understand how people say the current era is weak blah blah and then go and say Jokic is one the goats all of a sudden.

Jokic would be an afterthought if prime LeBron was in the league currently.
Both of them will be obsolete once wemby the giraffe starts thriving in the league, tho only if he can go without being hampered by injuries.

[StrongLurk]

To reiterate the other points that have been made, this thread was made after Jokic had already won b2b MVP's, and let's be real, he should've won 3 in a row if not for a late media push to give it to Embiid. He did this while putting up historically great production and advanced metrics 3 straight years. And this thread was made literally days after he had put up a 35/13/10 on 66%TS series against Phoenix. He also had a healthy team around him for the first time in years. I hate to break it to OP, but he's not going to get the credit he so clearly thinks he deserves for making this thread :lol

No one else is claiming Jokic is on a GOAT path. I never made these threads for Curry or Giannis after their b2b MVPs.

I will die on this hill right now that Jokic will go down for sure as a top 10 and maybe even top 5 player of all time. If Magic Johnson can be considered a top 5 all time player while not being a good defender AND playing with Kareem his whole career, then Jokic can enter that space too.

[beasted]

Magic is far from a consensus top 5 player. The only consensus among the top 5 seems to be Kareem, Jordan, and LeBron, if you ask 80% of non-troll fans with common sense. From there, it is highly debatable and contested amongst Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Malone, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Curry, etc.

So to use him as the benchmark is a bad argument.

[AlternativeAcc.]

No one else is claiming Jokic is on a GOAT path. I never made these threads for Curry or Giannis after their b2b MVPs.

I will die on this hill right now that Jokic will go down for sure as a top 10 and maybe even top 5 player of all time. If Magic Johnson can be considered a top 5 all time player while not being a good defender AND playing with Kareem his whole career, then Jokic can enter that space too.

He's already top 10 based off peak alone. Hell, he's already in my top 3. I'm a big peak guy. He and LeBron have the greatest peaks ever.

[SATAN]

Both of them will be obsolete once wemby the giraffe starts thriving in the league

Looks like Mikey will be out of the top 5 then if that happens :(

[Axe]

Looks like Mikey will be out of the top 5 then if that happens :(
Luka will take up his spot.

[StrongLurk]

32/12/7, 2 steals, no turnovers, 67 TS% in game 1.

Jokic is just head and shoulders above everyone in the NBA right now.

15 more wins and he is top ten all time.

[SouBeachTalents]

And NOBODY called it but OP :applause:

[StrongLurk]

And NOBODY called it but OP :applause:

So you expected Jokic to go back-to-back with rings/FMVPS? I didn't see any threads on that. I didn't see anyone in the media claim it either (they were actually hating Jokic and babying Embiid last year lol).

See my post below from when I made this thread (may 2023) and you'll understand why I waited on the "GOAT" run. It's only due to Jok's teammates finally be healthy last year.

"This run has been building over the last 3 years...but because NBA fans are stupid, they need to see Jokic win a ring first before giving him any legit credit. This is why I'm saying his GOAT run starts now, because the Nuggets will win the chip this year. I've been hyping Jokic up since his first playoff run in 2019 because it was clear he was a REAL superstar in the making. It's been obvious to see that he is the best player in basketball recently. People wanted to give that title to Giannis or even Curry because they won rings, but Jokic didn't have a healthy team to compete.

Then Jokic legit faced media-fueled racism this year because people wanted to coddle the crying Embiid. People wanted to say Embiid was better than Jokic even though Embiid has NEVER accomplished more than Jokic. Finally enough people are starting to face reality this year than Embiid can't compete with Jokic."

[BarberSchool]

I don’t think Jokic has a realistic path into the top 5 of all time.

Unless he wins 5 more titles, and continues his current statistical / advanced stats dominance for another 7-8 years.

I don’t think he has the motivation or physical nature to sustain his current play for that long.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I don’t think Jokic has a realistic path into the top 5 of all time.

Unless he wins 5 more titles, and continues his current statistical / advanced stats dominance for another 7-8 years.

I don’t think he has the motivation or physical nature to sustain his current play for that long.
5 more titles? What are you talking about. Another title or 2 and he already has a top 5 resume.

Dude is 29. His game doesn't rely on raw athleticim. What physical nature are you talking about?

[BarberSchool]

5 more titles? What are you talking about. Another title or 2 and he already has a top 5 resume.

Dude is 29. His game doesn't rely on raw athleticim. What physical nature are you talking about?I’ve always been one to allude to the same thing you just did, that players who rely on athleticism like Westbrook, generally have very steep drop offs in ability and production in their mid 30’s.

2 titles wouldn’t put him in anyone’s top 5. He would be somewhere from 8-12 with a measly two titles. To get to #3, #4, he would need at least 4-5 total Chanpionships at this same level of dominance. To get to #2 he would need 6. He cannot surpass Jordan, unless he wins 7, all with the level of dominance he currently has, or very close to it for the last two.

I say “motivation” & “physical nature” because yes he seems durable, and you can’t really get feet under him since he stays on the floor, and doesn’t rely on athleticism, but …. I mean more that his dismissive nature about professional basketball, American culture, the NBA as a business… he doesn’t think that highly of it all, and this, will likely not stay super motivated to sustain his greatness for as long as he could, if he were more motivated, or if he had a body which had enough of a frame to sustain this even as it withered.

He doesn’t have much muscle mass, and while that helps him not get as tired at elevation as those with large volumes of muscle mass, it also means his joints and connective tissue take more of the wear and tear, instead of being supported by the skeletal muscle system. His flabby, loose, janky physical nature isn’t giving his hips, knees, and other joints as much support as they might want. And while his style of play hasn’t resulted in any significant injuries yet, I think he is at risk for such as time passes.

[FultzNationRISE]

I’ve always been one to allude to the same thing you just did, that players who rely on athleticism like Westbrook, generally have very steep drop offs in ability and production in their mid 30’s.

2 titles wouldn’t put him in anyone’s top 5. He would be somewhere from 8-12 with a measly two titles. To get to #3, #4, he would need at least 4-5 total Chanpionships at this same level of dominance. To get to #2 he would need 6. He cannot surpass Jordan, unless he wins 7, all with the level of dominance he currently has, or very close to it for the last two.

I say “motivation” & “physical nature” because yes he seems durable, and you can’t really get feet under him since he stays on the floor, and doesn’t rely on athleticism, but …. I mean more that his dismissive nature about professional basketball, American culture, the NBA as a business… he doesn’t think that highly of it all, and this, will likely not stay super motivated to sustain his greatness for as long as he could, if he were more motivated, or if he had a body which had enough of a frame to sustain this even as it withered.


He’ll be in mine.

And mine’s better than the collective “everyone’s.”

[SouBeachTalents]

I’ve always been one to allude to the same thing you just did, that players who rely on athleticism like Westbrook, generally have very steep drop offs in ability and production in their mid 30’s.

2 titles wouldn’t put him in anyone’s top 5. He would be somewhere from 8-12 with a measly two titles. To get to #3, #4, he would need at least 4-5 total Chanpionships at this same level of dominance. To get to #2 he would need 6. He cannot surpass Jordan, unless he wins 7, all with the level of dominance he currently has, or very close to it for the last two.

I say “motivation” & “physical nature” because yes he seems durable, and you can’t really get feet under him since he stays on the floor, and doesn’t rely on athleticism, but …. I mean more that his dismissive nature about professional basketball, American culture, the NBA as a business… he doesn’t think that highly of it all, and this, will likely not stay super motivated to sustain his greatness for as long as he could, if he were more motivated, or if he had a body which had enough of a frame to sustain this even as it withered.

He doesn’t have much muscle mass, and while that helps him not get as tired at elevation as those with large volumes of muscle mass, it also means his joints and connective tissue take more of the wear and tear, instead of being supported by the skeletal muscle system. His flabby, loose, janky physical nature isn’t giving his hips, knees, and other joints as much support as they might want. And while his style of play hasn’t resulted in any significant injuries yet, I think he is at risk for such as time passes.
You shouldn't rely on championships to this great an extent to rank players.

[BarberSchool]

You shouldn't rely on championships to this great an extent to rank players.
I don’t.
I have Barkley ranked much higher than most do, due to his insane peak in the late 80’s and early 90’s, and his uniqueness as a player and personality.

For Jokic tho, and his style of play, championships factor in more than they do for Sir Charles.

[j3lademaster]

The reason Jordan is so highly regarded is because he brought 6 rings to a nothing franchise. Not just 6, but with his individual dominance up until that point he was being compared to Bird and Magic after his first championship and had goat talks in 92/93. What makes Jokic so different that he needs 5 to even enter top 5 talks? He brought a title to a historically bad franchise, all his objective(so hateproof) metrics are topping all time levels- even defensive metrics, and he’s proving himself to be a top 5 if not goat court mapper of all time. He never even had a great squad. How many teams wanted Aaron Gordon? KCP was a scapegoat in LA. Murray is good, but he isn’t some all time sidekick. There’s nothing that makes him better than, say, Maxey if we compare them side by side. Jokic makes these guys all look like winners. He doesn’t have a Kobe, Pippen, McHale, KAJ etc… in a league where teams are more stacked than ever. If he wins this year in his usual fashion he is top 10 and it’s not ridiculous to put him top 5 if he wins 3.

[StrongLurk]

The reason Jordan is so highly regarded is because he brought 6 rings to a nothing franchise. Not just 6, but with his individual dominance up until that point he was being compared to Bird and Magic after his first championship and had goat talks in 92/93. What makes Jokic so different that he needs 5 to even enter top 5 talks? He brought a title to a historically bad franchise, all his objective(so hateproof) metrics are topping all time levels- even defensive metrics, and he’s proving himself to be a top 5 if not goat court mapper of all time. He never even had a great squad. How many teams wanted Aaron Gordon? KCP was a scapegoat in LA. Murray is good, but he isn’t some all time sidekick. There’s nothing that makes him better than, say, Maxey if we compare them side by side. Jokic makes these guys all look like winners. He doesn’t have a Kobe, Pippen, McHale, KAJ etc… in a league where teams are more stacked than ever. If he wins this year in his usual fashion he is top 10 and it’s not ridiculous to put him top 5 if he wins 3.

Since 1999 - Top MVPs/FMVPS (must have at least one of each).

Tier 1: Lebron (8)
Tier 2: Duncan (5)
Tier 3: Shaq (4)
Tier 4: Kobe (3), Curry (3), Durant (3), Giannis (3), Jokic (3).
Tier 5: Dirk (2)

Hopefully this helps put Jokic in some perspective. Dude is 29 years old and has a great chance of leaping to tier 2 with Duncan if he wins MVP/FMVP this year. Keep in mind Jokic is legit at the top of all-time career advanced stats (ahead of Lebron/MJ).

(Regular season) - Among superstar/1st options, Jokic is number 1 all time in PER, number 1 in True Shooting %, number 1 in Offensive Rating, number 1 in Win Share/48, and number 1 in Box Score Plus-Minus.

(Playoffs)- Among superstar/1st options, Jokic is number 1 all time in PER, number 4 in TS%, number 1 in Offensive Rating, number 3 in Win Share/48, and number 2 in Box Score Plus-Minus.

[BarberSchool]

Since 1999 - Top MVPs/FMVPS (must have at least one of each).

Tier 1: Lebron (8)
Tier 2: Duncan (5)
Tier 3: Shaq (4)
Tier 4: Kobe (3), Curry (3), Durant (3), Giannis (3), Jokic (3).
Tier 5: Dirk (2)

Hopefully this helps put Jokic in some perspective. Dude is 29 years old and has a great chance of leaping to tier 2 with Duncan if he wins MVP/FMVP this year. Keep in mind Jokic is legit at the top of all-time career advanced stats (ahead of Lebron/MJ).

(Regular season) - Among superstar/1st options, Jokic is number 1 all time in PER, number 1 in True Shooting %, number 1 in Offensive Rating, number 1 in Win Share/48, and number 1 in Box Score Plus-Minus.

(Playoffs)- Among superstar/1st options, Jokic is number 1 all time in PER, number 4 in TS%, number 1 in Offensive Rating, number 3 in Win Share/48, and number 2 in Box Score Plus-Minus.

This is a very detail oriented, well presented post, in support of Jokic’s proposed run. But one thing …. Very very few people who played the game at a high level would ever consider ranking Duncan ahead of Shaq on any all time list. Shaq’s individual dominance was something Duncan did not even approach. As is the spectacle of his dominance, and his entertainment value, for the game growing globally during his prime.

It’s why Bird/Magic are ranked higher than they should be stat-wise as well, because their rivalry and decade of excellence made the game much much more popular amongst the public. Same with Jordan, his blatant individual talent gap was plain to see for everyone, even those who never played the game at any level. This type of universal popularity of both his own championships, and the DREAM TEAM (of which Barkley still doesn’t get enough recognition) helped players like Shaq & Kobe have a larger more international audience … and will also help many more to come …

…but Duncan, Jokic, and Dirk don’t have this same type of appeal/personality/aura, and while that is not a major knock against their greatness to people who know the game inside and out, and who appreciate less entertaining, less gripping, less spectacular types of statistical or strategic dominance… I think it counts for something, in addition to comparing pace and defensive changes per era.

Jokic would be great in any era, but if he played in the 90’s or 00’s, his advanced stats would slide down some, and would not bolster such an argument the same way, as the fortunate era he finds himself in now. Jokic is the type of talent that requires many other moving pieces to amplify his own abilities. On his own, without such cooperation and specialization, he would not have the same all-time statistical achievement.

That contrasts with players who can achieve such feats without the same level of moving pieces around them magnifying and amplifying their own abilities. Diverging arguments can evolve from that. Saying that Bird could do both, but that Magic and Jokic needed the mobile teammates to amplify their own talents, for instance.

[StrongLurk]

This is a very detail oriented, well presented post, in support of Jokic’s proposed run. But one thing …. Very very few people who played the game at a high level would ever consider ranking Duncan ahead of Shaq on any all time list. Shaq’s individual dominance was something Duncan did not even approach. As is the spectacle of his dominance, and his entertainment value, for the game growing globally during his prime. It’s why Bird/Magic are ranked higher than they should be stat-wise as well, because their rivalry and decade of excellence made the game much much more popular amongst the public. Same with Jordan, his blatant individual talent gap was plain to see for everyone, even those who never played the game at any level. This type of universal popularity helped players like Shaq & Kobe have a larger more international audience … and will also help many more to come … but Duncan, Jokic, and Dirk don’t have this same type of appeal/personality/aura, and while that is not a major knock against their greatness to people who know the game inside and out, and who appreciate less entertaining, less gripping, less spectacular types of statistical or strategic dominance… I think it counts for something, in addition to comparing pace and defensive changes per era. Jokic would be great in any era, but if he played in the 90’s or 00’s, his advanced stats would slide down some, and would not bolster such an argument the same way, as the fortunate era he finds himself in now.

This is an interesting post because I have always considered Shaq to be underrated. Most top ten lists I've seen over the past few years have him 9 or 10 for some reason...I actually would take Shaq and Duncan over both Magic and Bird.

Ultimately I can hype Jok as much as I want, but as always, the proof will be in the results.

[BarberSchool]

This is an interesting post because I have always considered Shaq to be underrated. Most top ten lists I've seen over the past few years have him 9 or 10 for some reason...I actually would take Shaq and Duncan over both Magic and Bird.

Ultimately I can hype Jok as much as I want, but as always, the proof will be in the results.
The rightful knock against Shaq, is that his skill set was very very limited, he could be punished & embarrassed at the free throw line, and that the league tolerated alot of offensive fouls from him. But no one can deny his plain to see physical dominance and gigantic entertainment value, and likability (as a player), he’s not nearly as likable as a commentator lol

[tpols]

The reason Jordan is so highly regarded is because he brought 6 rings to a nothing franchise. Not just 6, but with his individual dominance up until that point he was being compared to Bird and Magic after his first championship and had goat talks in 92/93. What makes Jokic so different that he needs 5 to even enter top 5 talks? He brought a title to a historically bad franchise, all his objective(so hateproof) metrics are topping all time levels- even defensive metrics, and he’s proving himself to be a top 5 if not goat court mapper of all time. He never even had a great squad. How many teams wanted Aaron Gordon? KCP was a scapegoat in LA. Murray is good, but he isn’t some all time sidekick. There’s nothing that makes him better than, say, Maxey if we compare them side by side. Jokic makes these guys all look like winners. He doesn’t have a Kobe, Pippen, McHale, KAJ etc… in a league where teams are more stacked than ever. If he wins this year in his usual fashion he is top 10 and it’s not ridiculous to put him top 5 if he wins 3.

A lot of teammates get overrated next to all time great players but I don't know if Jamal Murray is one of them at this point. His WCF and overall playoff run last year was better than anything Pippen ever produced in a playoff run.

[StrongLurk]

14 more wins go to for GOAT Jokic.

First 2 playoff games - 30/16/9 with 2 steals on 68.7 TS% :lol

[John8204]

You shouldn't rely on championships to this great an extent to rank players.

Greatness really is determined based on how you distinguish yourself from your contemporaries...

With that said 2 rings at his mid-career point he shouldn't be ranked in the top 40 let alone top 10-15.

We hype up contemporary players way to much

Pts - 14,139
Rb - 7,249
As - 4,667

This is a very good stat line...Luka is going to pass Joker in assists next year and points in maybe two years

[StrongLurk]

Greatness really is determined based on how you distinguish yourself from your contemporaries...

With that said 2 rings at his mid-career point he shouldn't be ranked in the top 40 let alone top 10-15.

We hype up contemporary players way to much

Pts - 14,139
Rb - 7,249
As - 4,667

This is a very good stat line...Luka is going to pass Joker in assists next year and points in maybe two years

:roll:

You gotta troll better than this.

[StrongLurk]

Another W for Jokic, 24/15/9 on 74.6 TS%.

13 W's to go.

[SouBeachTalents]

Greatness really is determined based on how you distinguish yourself from your contemporaries...

With that said 2 rings at his mid-career point he shouldn't be ranked in the top 40 let alone top 10-15.

We hype up contemporary players way to much

Pts - 14,139
Rb - 7,249
As - 4,667

This is a very good stat line...Luka is going to pass Joker in assists next year and points in maybe two years
I admit you do an excellent deadpan delivery, but your trolling is slipping of late. You need to make it more believable going forward.

[RogueBorg]

Lebron's getting sent to retirement not being able to beat Jokic.

[Hoopexpert]

This guy is STILL so underrated by everyone.

[ImKobe]

Crazy how some random 2nd round pick from Serbia is on pace to be a top 10 GOAT after this season if he pulls off another championship.

[Manny98]

He probably moves into my top 5 all time if he wins this year what he's doing is unbelievable

He's arguably playing at a higher level than both peak LeBron and MJ

[StrongLurk]

He probably moves into my top 5 all time if he wins this year what he's doing is unbelievable

He's arguably playing at a higher level than both peak LeBron and MJ

I agree that he is up there on offense with MJ and Lebron, but you can't say (yet) that he is ABOVE peak MJ and Lebron.

Peak MJ and peak Lebron did not get to play in this era/format of basketball.

I know I have been hyping Jokic up constantly since 2021, but I still do admit that Jokic (and others) are peaking in the easiest offensive format in the 3 point era. So that does need to factor into all time comparisons.

I have made threads that basketball after 2020 really should be considered a "new" era and can't be compared to previous eras, but either way, Jokic is going to be the GOAT of this era and I think end up top 10 all time (and maybe top 6 all time).

[tpols]

It's still kinda crazy to me what old Dwight did to Jokic.

https://youtube.com/shorts/PdcI_DBgKkE?si=ZHLMMqLKDTBrQDEP

[Micku]

It's still kinda crazy to me what old Dwight did to Jokic.

https://youtube.com/shorts/PdcI_DBgKkE?si=ZHLMMqLKDTBrQDEP

I wonder if he can still do that against this version of Jokic? Back then it was right before MVP lvl Jokic. It wasn't just Howard either. It was JaVale McGee too coming off the bench.

But even 2021, I think Ayton gave Jokic troubles too. Ever since 22, Jokic been on another lvl.

[SATAN]

He's arguably playing at a higher level than both peak LeBron and MJ

What would his ring count look like if peak LeBron or MJ were in the league though?

[StrongLurk]

Another monster game for Jokic.

29/15/10 on super high efficiency so far in the playoffs :lol

[beasted]

Nope.

[ImKobe]

Grand opening, grand closing.

[RRR3]

Yikes.

[Mask the Embiid]

The league isn't stacked with any teams these last few years. A lot of really good teams, but each year is relatively open compared to the past few decades.

As long as Jokic/Murray are healthy, they should be title favorites.

https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif

[StrongLurk]

I was wrong, will admit it. I did preface that Jamal Murray needed to be healthy, and he clearly wasn't, and the Nuggets lack of depth caught up with them.

That's the tough part regarding the GOAT criteria. It requires winning, which ultimately requires some good luck. Jokic is still the best player in the league though. Will be interesting to see if Denver can retool a bit next year.

[Carbine]

Jokic could never win another playoff game in his life and his 3 MVP, 1 title + 1 FMVP four year stretch is still one of the goat stretches ever. It cemented himself as the clear best player if his era.

[beasted]

Jokic could never win another playoff game in his life and his 3 MVP, 1 title + 1 FMVP four year stretch is still one of the goat stretches ever. It cemented himself as the clear best player if his era.

An "era" isn't a 4 year run.

[Carbine]

His era of players. The ones he has competed with since entering his prime or near it that are within his age range.

He has more MVPs than anyone during that time and as many titles. His contemporaries be would be competing with are Giannis, Embiid... Luka and Tatum if you wanted to stretch it age wise. Before them it was the LBJ and Curry era. Before them Kobe, Shaq and Duncan.

Jokic has separated himself from his peers so far. Tatum or Luka could get one this year, but they will still pale in comparison overall to Jokic resume.

[hold this L]

His era of players. The ones he has competed with since entering his prime or near it that are within his age range.

He has more MVPs than anyone during that time and as many titles. His contemporaries be would be competing with are Giannis, Embiid... Luka and Tatum if you wanted to stretch it age wise. Before them it was the LBJ and Curry era. Before them Kobe, Shaq and Duncan.

Jokic has separated himself from his peers so far. Tatum or Luka could get one this year, but they will still pale in comparison overall to Jokic resume.

One of them is 4 years younger, the other is 3 years. I'd say his comparisons are Giannis and Embiid, not the younger guys in their mid 20s.

[beasted]

His era of players. The ones he has competed with since entering his prime or near it that are within his age range.

He has more MVPs than anyone during that time and as many titles. His contemporaries be would be competing with are Giannis, Embiid... Luka and Tatum if you wanted to stretch it age wise. Before them it was the LBJ and Curry era. Before them Kobe, Shaq and Duncan.

Jokic has separated himself from his peers so far. Tatum or Luka could get one this year, but they will still pale in comparison overall to Jokic resume.

By this logic Nash has more MVPs than most of the guys in his "era". Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Wade, etc. Nobody considers him better than any of those guys in all- time rankings.

[beasted]

My point is not to trash Jokic. It's simply to call out that he needs more to cement himself. The notion that if he retired today he'd be in anyone's top 10 list is totally absurd

[Carbine]

By this logic Nash has more MVPs than most of the guys in his "era". Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Wade, etc. Nobody considers him better than any of those guys in all- time rankings.

The only thing Nash has over Kobe on his resume would be the extra MVP. In it's totality, Kobe vs Nash is a non conversation. 5 titles, two as the man vs zero finals appearances for Nash. Way more All NBA teams, more all defensive, more FMVP.

Jokic doesn't just have 3 MVPs, he has the entire package besides All Defensive selections. Giannis resume is the only one that stacks up comparatively. We will see how the back half of their careers go to see who separates from the pack. Or maybe they don't.

[beasted]

The only thing Nash has over Kobe on his resume would be the extra MVP. In it's totality, Kobe vs Nash is a non conversation. 5 titles, two as the man vs zero finals appearances for Nash. Way more All NBA teams, more all defensive, more FMVP.

Jokic doesn't just have 3 MVPs, he has the entire package besides All Defensive selections. Giannis resume is the only one that stacks up comparatively. We will see how the back half of their careers go to see who separates from the pack. Or maybe they don't.
Your reply seems to support my point that multiple MVPs in a short period don't define a career. If you're agreeing, then we are saying the same thing which is that Jokic has a great foundation, but more work needs to be done to say he's dominated his era.