Can someone live up to the hype of "best prospect ever" with...

[3ba11]

less chips than Kobe or Duncan and the worst record on the championship level in modern history, which includes numerous record losses and record upsets?

And teaming up with rivals (like Tatum teaming up with Butler), aka hand-picking super-teams and preseason favorites??

That's living up to the hype?

So will Wemby live up to the hype with 2 chips and 2-9 in the Finals after teaming up with rivals and hand-picking super-teams or preseason favorites?

[1987_Lakers]

1-9

[Kblaze8855]

You wouldn’t find anyone from 03 who would put their name on Lebron being a 4 time champ, 4 time mvp, 4 time finals mvp, and scoring 40K points. You can’t predict that of anyone. ISH was saying he’d be between Darius Miles and Jerry Stackhouse.

[StrongLurk]

Mods, please put OP out of his misery. Quit feeding into his obsessions with Lebron. We are dealing with a legit mental illness here, not a simple troll. This is serious.

[red1]

https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg

[red1]

grocery bagging rivals


I would love to see what lebron would do to hornacek :oldlol:


https://media.gettyimages.com/id/513344442/photo/1998-nba-finals-game-one.jpg?s=1024x1024&w=gi&k=20&c=0_SOwLcKCfVeGe3PuKH0LhTsW5q9m5KWEKTN2MMnAuk=

[ShawkFactory]

less chips than Kobe or Duncan and the worst record on the championship level in modern history, which includes numerous record losses and record upsets?

That's living up to the hype?

So will Wemby live up to the hype with 2 chips and 2-9 in the Finals with mostly hand-picked super-teams and preseason favorites?

Yes.

[3ba11]

You wouldn’t find anyone from 03 who would put their name on Lebron being a 4 time champ, 4 time mvp, 4 time finals mvp, and scoring 40K points. You can’t predict that of anyone. ISH was saying he’d be between Darius Miles and Jerry Stackhouse.



By definition of being "the best prospect ever" or even an all-time prospect, people expect the prospect to do great things and win many titles

Without this expectation, they aren't an all-time prospect, by definition

People thought Wilt, Shaq, and Kareem might win every year

People certainly didn't expect Lebron to have a lottery record on the championship level with numerous record blowout losses and record upsets, or a low championship frequency like Wilt (lowest of anyone in the top 10)

[RRR3]

By definition of being "the best prospect ever" or even an all-time prospect, people expect the prospect to do great things and win many titles

Without this expectation, they aren't an all-time prospect, by definition

People thought Wilt, Shaq, and Kareem might win every year

People certainly didn't expect Lebron to have a lottery record on the championship level with numerous record blowout losses and record upsets, or a low championship frequency like Wilt (lowest of anyone in the top 10)
He literally did you retarded piece of shit

[red1]

By definition of being "the best prospect ever" or even an all-time prospect, people expect the prospect to do great things and win many titles

Without this expectation, they aren't an all-time prospect, by definition

People thought Wilt, Shaq, and Kareem might win every year

People certainly didn't expect Lebron to have a lottery record on the championship level with numerous record blowout losses and record upsets, or a low championship frequency like Wilt (lowest of anyone in the top 10)

the dynasty killer

https://wp.usatodaysports.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/2013/06/lebron31.gif
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClhqSGgWIAErVpC.jpg

[red1]

He literally did you retarded piece of shit

he's a troll. he never admits when he's wrong.

used to write essays on how mo williams is a more talented basketball player than scottie pippen


used to argue that varejao could be compared to horace grant


says KG is better than lebron.


he's mentally ill.

[red1]

3balls arguments literally proved that jordan's GOAT case isn't as rock-solid as you'd think


he literally proved that lebron is 1a 1b at worst.

[3ba11]

He literally did you retarded piece of shit


No one thought the "best prospect ever" would need to team up with rivals (like Tatum teaming up with Butler plus a 3rd star) - no one thought he would need to hand-pick super-teams or preseason favorites

[red1]

No one thought the "best prospect ever" would need to team up with rivals (like Tatum teaming up with Butler plus a 3rd star) - no one thought he would need to hand-pick super-teams or preseason favorites

get over it son.


cotton candy rings and grocery bagging rivals.

[red1]

ask the heat fans and cavaliers fans how their "super-team" fared without the GOAT



1-man army


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTEgQ4eUsAAoA24.jpg
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Qs52wQZDVUJntmm6OH-wwDF4bx4=/1400x1050/filters:format(jpeg)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19882606/celticsbron.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

When you have to pretend that 4 MVP's, 4 FMVP's, 19 All-NBA selections and breaking the all time scoring record is some disappointing career, it's time to admit you lost the argument :lol If you held every player in history to these same standards literally everybody's career would look like shit.

[red1]

When you have to pretend that 4 MVP's, 4 FMVP's, 19 All-NBA selections and breaking the all time scoring record is some disappointing career, it's time to admit you lost the argument :lol If you held every player in history to these same standards literally everybody's career would look like shit.

bruh he thinks anderson fcuking varejao and horace grant are on the same exact tier "they're just rebounders"



such a shame that all of the old threads got deleted




my guy wrote ESSAYS, fcuking DOCTORATE papers on how mo williams is a more talented basketball player than scottie pippen


what an absolute fcuking retard.


trolling 3ball will never get old :roll:

[red1]

3ball singlehandedly made the leQuatro bubble run fun


those 2020 meltdowns were epic


https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZjc5NjgwZTg3NzBhNTRiNjdjYTk5YTM zODUyZGM1ZDM2OTE1OTQ1NyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZzX 2dpZklkJmN0PWc/VIVWFx6c91AAwWLwWB/giphy.gif

[3ba11]

ask the heat fans and cavaliers fans how their "super-team" fared without the GOAT



1-man army


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTEgQ4eUsAAoA24.jpg
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Qs52wQZDVUJntmm6OH-wwDF4bx4=/1400x1050/filters:format(jpeg)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19882606/celticsbron.jpg


The 2011 Cavs lost Shaq,, Mo, Zydrunas, Delonte, and Varejao (52 ppg), not just Lebron (30 ppg)

And the 15' Heat were injured but nearly made the 16' ECF like the 94' Bulls..

And Love was hurt in 2019

Team-hoppers like Lebron GUT teams

He went out West and was lottery with Ingram & Kuzma, so he started teaming up with rivals again and hand-picking preseason favorites - the man is a fraud

[3ba11]

When you have to pretend that 4 MVP's, 4 FMVP's, 19 All-NBA selections and breaking the all time scoring record is some disappointing career, it's time to admit you lost the argument :lol If you held every player in history to these same standards literally everybody's career would look like shit.


Smart people understand that the longevity stuff means nothing - "the best prospect ever" needed to team-up with rivals but still couldn't win like his contemporaries and had a lottery record on the championship level

[red1]

lebron gutted the cavs. understood.

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/tribdem.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/f/e5/fe58c8cc-369a-11e6-84c6-530ba44fcfd7/5767698c25d7b.image.jpg




I'm sure the heat fans hate lebron for how he ruined their team


https://upperdeckstore.com/media/catalog/product/cache/cca31960a2955b031df57569d9e7c7f0/l/e/lebron-james-front-page-photo-81552_2.jpg

[red1]

who's the best perimeter defender jordan went up against? :oldlol:

[red1]

Smart people understand that the longevity stuff means nothing - "the best prospect ever" needed to team-up with rivals but still couldn't win like his contemporaries and had a lottery record on the championship level

yes 3ball. lets hear some wisdom from some ACTUAL intelligent people:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG8wjJNdf4&t=3s&ab_channel=ESPN

[red1]

kerr back in 2018: "lebron and jordan are 1a 1b"

[red1]

GOAT FCUKING JAMES



https://media.tenor.com/cqLFS9f6xJMAAAAC/vince-carter-its-over.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

Smart people understand that the longevity stuff means nothing - "the best prospect ever" needed to team-up with rivals but still couldn't win like his contemporaries and had a lottery record on the championship level
You can continue to pretend those Cavs teams were equivalent to the Celtics & Lakers teams Russell, Magic, Bird & Kobe played for, but how competent your original teams front office is has no bearing on how good of a player you are. Kobe would've demanded a trade from that Cleveland team within 3 years :lol

And Finals W-L record is irrelevant. Jordan getting his head kicked in by the Pistons before the Finals is not more noble or impressive than LeBron losing to the Warriors in the Finals. You're literally rewarding losing earlier. Just say he won more titles, Finals record will always be an idiotic argument.

[3ba11]

who's the best perimeter defender jordan went up against? :oldlol:


You should understand that Jordan's superpower was having 6'2" quickness at 6'6", so the only guys that could stay in front of him were shorter guys like Dumars, Starks, Moncrief or Payton - taller defenders like Rodman, Drexler, Cooper, Lewis, Mason, Augmon and the like were snails compared to Jordan and had no chance

[red1]

You should understand that Jordan's superpower was having 6'2" quickness at 6'6", so the only guys that could stay in front of him were shorter guys like Dumars, Starks, Moncrief or Payton - taller defenders like Rodman, Drexler, Cooper, Lewis, Mason, Augmon and the like were snails compared to Jordan and had no chance

the correct answer is scottie pippen.

THAT is the best defender jordan went up against.



and he only went up against in him in practice BECAUSE THEY WERE ON THE SAME TEAM :roll:

[red1]

never talk about stacked teams again you clown



jordan's team won 55-games without him and went to game 7 of the eastern semis when he left





that is the DEFINITION of a stacked team






fcuking moron.

[red1]

You can continue to pretend those Cavs teams were equivalent to the Celtics & Lakers teams Russell, Magic, Bird & Kobe played for, but how competent your original teams front office is has no bearing on how good of a player you are. Kobe would've demanded a trade from that Cleveland team within 3 years :lol

And Finals W-L record is irrelevant. Jordan getting his head kicked in by the Pistons before the Finals is not more noble or impressive than LeBron losing to the Warriors in the Finals. You're literally rewarding losing earlier. Just say he won more titles, Finals record will always be an idiotic argument.

I own his soul bro



he said lebron couldnt lead a team to a ring




and then he did it on 3 franchises





at this point the mods should just ban his ass for his spam

[3ba11]

You can continue to pretend those Cavs teams were equivalent to the Celtics & Lakers teams Russell, Magic, Bird & Kobe played for, but how competent your original teams front office is has no bearing on how good of a player you are. Kobe would've demanded a trade from that Cleveland team within 3 years :lol





Dirk won 67 games in the West with Josh Howard, while Lebron won 66 games in the East with Mo Williams (45 wins before Mo).

Accordingly, we watched one guy persevere (Dirk) and the other guy packed his bags and sought an easier route (Lebron).. Dirk won with Terry, while Lebron lost with Mo and teamed up with rivals.

Imagine if Wemby can't win with the Spurs after 8 years and decides to team-up with Luka and D'Aaron Fox - that isn't living up to the hype - it's literally the definition of NOT living up to the hype, especially if he mostly lost the title after the team-ups.






And Finals W-L record is irrelevant. Jordan getting his head kicked in by the Pistons before the Finals is not more noble or impressive than LeBron losing to the Warriors in the Finals. You're literally rewarding losing earlier. Just say he won more titles, Finals record will always be an idiotic argument.





It's pretty disingenuous to say that MJ had early exits before the Finals when Lebron had just as many and needed to team up with rivals to stop the early exits.

Lebron had 6 early exits before his first chip, which is the same as Jordan.

And since Lebron was locked up by the 07' Spurs and 08' Celtics, history shows that Lebron was either locked up, lottery or upset for every season from 2004-2011, except 2006 (although only 26 on 45% vs Pistons). A proven champion and clutch assassin (Wade) had to teach Lebron how to win and perform under pressure.

[red1]

Dirk won 67 games in the West with Josh Howard, while Lebron won 66 games in the East with Mo Williams (45 wins before Mo).

Accordingly, we watched one guy persevere (Dirk) and the other guy packed his bags and sought an easier route (Lebron).. Dirk won with Terry, while Lebron lost with Mo and teamed up with rivals.

Imagine if Wemby can't win with the Spurs after 8 years and decides to team-up with Luka and D'Aaron Fox - that isn't living up to the hype - it's literally the definition of NOT living up to the hype, especially if he mostly lost the title after the team-ups.






It's pretty disingenuous to say that MJ had early exits before the Finals when Lebron had just as many and needed to team up with rivals to stop the early exits.

Lebron had 6 early exits before his first chip, which is the same as Jordan.

And since Lebron was locked up by the 07' Spurs and 08' Celtics, history shows that Lebron was either locked up, lottery or upset for every season from 2004-2011, except 2006 (although only 26 on 45% vs Pistons)

why are you always ducking and flip-flopping



how is jordan's team not stacked when they win 55-games and go to game-7 ECF without him?



find one single lebron team that could do that - you have 20 years to pick from :oldlol:

[tpols]

Lebron was the best high school player of all time and it's not close. He almost looks in 2009 form when he was only 17. Biggest, but also the fastest with elite IQ to boot. In the NBA he succumbed to media pressure and chose to take the easy way out to win team hopping everywhere.

He's still one of the greatest if not the greatest talent ever but he had to cheat with all the flopping and team hopping to win compared to MJ Kobe Duncan Bird Curry etc who all stuck it out through the good and the bad and still won.

[tontoz]

Lebron was the best high school player of all time and it's not close. He almost looks in 2009 form when he was only 17. Biggest, but also the fastest with elite IQ to boot. In the NBA he succumbed to media pressure and chose to take the easy way out to win team hopping everywhere.

He's still one of the greatest if not the greatest talent ever but he had to cheat with all the flopping and team hopping to win compared to MJ Kobe Duncan Bird Curry etc who all stuck it out through the good and the bad and still won.


If Lebron and Wemby were in the same draft i'm pretty sure Lebron goes first. Lebron already had a NBA body in high school. He weighed 245 lbs at the combine.

[red1]

Lebron was the best high school player of all time and it's not close. He almost looks in 2009 form when he was only 17. Biggest, but also the fastest with elite IQ to boot. In the NBA he succumbed to media pressure and chose to take the easy way out to win team hopping everywhere.

He's still one of the greatest if not the greatest talent ever but he had to cheat with all the flopping and team hopping to win compared to MJ Kobe Duncan Bird Curry etc who all stuck it out through the good and the bad and still won.

that's just not true.


those heat teams were flawed as hell. VERY easy to exploit the lack of a center and pointguard on their roster. "the decision" and spectacle was a mistake and I understand why everyone hated them. thats completely fair and I will give you that.


those cavs weren't doing shit until he came back. kyrie wasn't leading them to shit - lebron and their defense and rebounding is what made them so deadly. kyrie's scoring was the beautiful icing on the cake.


he came to the lakers when they weren't on shit.




that's just a hater narrative tbh.

[red1]

bro the pistons celtics spurs - they were all ganging up on him



he shot poorly in the playoffs but really put the team on his back when he was young


and he was iron man for the heat. always put the team on his back when wade and bosh went down. and he never went down himself.





he really deserves more respect for the way he's carried teams

[3ba11]

Lebron was the best high school player of all time and it's not close. He almost looks in 2009 form when he was only 17. Biggest, but also the fastest with elite IQ to boot. In the NBA he succumbed to media pressure and chose to take the easy way out to win team hopping everywhere.

He's still one of the greatest if not the greatest talent ever but he had to cheat with all the flopping and team hopping to win compared to MJ Kobe Duncan Bird Curry etc who all stuck it out through the good and the bad and still won.


Lebron has a case for goat talent, but nowhere near goat skills - the weaker skills (expert jumpshooting) and the resulting abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position yields weaker teammate fits and strategic capacity/coaching, which yields lower team ceiling/Finals record (aka needs more help than MJ, Kobe, Curry and others)

[ShawkFactory]

OP also seems to be confused as the what prospect means. Being the GOAT prospect doesn't mean that that individual is expected to be the GOAT player.

It just means that at that stage then the player in question is more advanced than anyone else at that stage. Whether that be body, skills, athleticism, or some combination of all of them. It doesn't matter.

If Wemby has a long productive career, wins a couple MVPs and a couple titles then no one will be saying that he didn't live up to anything.

[tpols]

that's just not true.


those heat teams were flawed as hell. VERY easy to exploit the lack of a center and pointguard on their roster. "the decision" and spectacle was a mistake and I understand why everyone hated them. thats completely fair and I will give you that.


those cavs weren't doing shit until he came back. kyrie wasn't leading them to shit - lebron and their defense and rebounding is what made them so deadly. kyrie's scoring was the beautiful icing on the cake.


he came to the lakers when they weren't on shit.




that's just a hater narrative tbh.

Bro.... the 2011 decision was an all time debacle and team hop.

He joined prime Dwayne Wade who was considered as good as Kobe at the time, and added Bosh coming off his best statistical season along with a bunch of sniper role players.

You're only revising history here by saying it wasn't considered unfair when it happened. He stacked the deck and barely won.

They said they would win 7 or 8 titles together and had a losing Finals record together.


https://youtu.be/EYe8B--jrbs

[red1]

Lebron was the best high school player of all time and it's not close. He almost looks in 2009 form when he was only 17. Biggest, but also the fastest with elite IQ to boot. In the NBA he succumbed to media pressure and chose to take the easy way out to win team hopping everywhere.

He's still one of the greatest if not the greatest talent ever but he had to cheat with all the flopping and team hopping to win compared to MJ Kobe Duncan Bird Curry etc who all stuck it out through the good and the bad and still won.

people dont realize how bad the cavs were


lebron would have won countless rings if drafted to the spurs celtics lakers or even the warriors. it's completely ridiculous to even bring up.



its not an apples to apples comparison. you can look at how inept the cavs front office was from 2003-2010.

[red1]

Bro.... the 2011 decision was an all time debacle and team hop.

He joined prime Dwayne Wade who was considered as good as Kobe at the time, and added Bosh coming off his best statistical season along with a bunch of sniper role players.

You're only revising history here by saying it wasn't considered unfair when it happened. He stacked the deck and barely won.

They said they would win 7 or 8 titles together and had a losing Finals record together.


he said that was a mistake and was swept up in the energy and spectacle of the crowd. was pandering to his home crowd.


how is a 2-2 record a losing record? 4 finals and 2 chips is a great run. could've been a 3-peat if wade's knees didn't fall apart by 2014.





wade was a massively declined version of himself. please dont act like he played with prime wade outside of the first year in 2011.

[red1]

I would give it to you and say it was a stacked team if he got prime wade, but that wasn't the case AT ALL

[3ba11]

why are you always ducking and flip-flopping



how is jordan's team not stacked when they win 55-games and go to game-7 ECF without him?



find one single lebron team that could do that - you have 20 years to pick from :oldlol:


Pippen inherited a fully-grown 3-peat dynasty and could never grow a team from scratch like MJ or Lebron (true 1st options) - Pippen did the opposite of growth by destroying a 3-peat dynasty QUICKLY to borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned.. 1995 confirmed that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty.

[red1]

people used to call him a frontrunner and 4th-quarter choker


those arguments completely fell apart because we know he's the greatest player in the history of the game with his back against the wall


it's been proven many times over

[John8204]

Team-hoppers like Lebron GUT teams

He went out West and was lottery with Ingram & Kuzma, so he started teaming up with rivals again and hand-picking preseason favorites - the man is a fraud

In 7 seasons in Cleveland
Finals - 1
Conference Finals -1
In 4 seasons in Miami
Finals - 4
Rings - 2
In 4 seasons in his return to Cleveland
Finals - 4
Rings - 1
In 5 seasons in Los Angeles
Finals - 1
Conference Finals - 1(for now)
Ring - 1

I don't know what the measure of success is for you but you "gut" your teams for those results.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Kobe started his career next to a near GOAT. Duncan same and had 4 titles in 10 years. Bird immediately had HOF teammates. Curry won titles basically as soon as he was healthy. Team got a steal contract because he was so unreliable. Then he's healthy and they are dominant.

None of those guys persevered through crap rosters to get to their first titles. Jordan is the only one that claim is remotely close to reasonable and with him the team was clearly on the upswing until they won titles. They weren't stagnating with bad roster, no assets and a front office blowing every trade and free agent acquisition.

[red1]

Pippen inherited a fully-grown 3-peat dynasty and could never grow a team from scratch like MJ or Lebron (true 1st options) - Pippen did the opposite of growth by destroying a 3-peat dynasty QUICKLY to borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned.. 1995 confirmed that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty.

so ****ing stacked. 55-wins and game 7 semis without him.


lebron would salivate at playing with such a stacked team


and you're predictable and obvious - this is the reason why you always discredit pippen and grant and rodman and kukoc and every other bull ever



because you know it's true.

[3ba11]

I would give it to you and say it was a stacked team if he got prime wade, but that wasn't the case AT ALL


2010 Kobe...... 21 PER.... 4.1 BPM
2010 Wade..... 28 PER.... 9.2 BPM

Lebron teamed up with a Kobe-like player but needed a miracle bailout to avoid going 1/4.

Wade was the #2 producer in the league behind Lebron, so that's like Joker teaming up with Giannis.. Everyone's jaws dropped to the floor when we found out that Lebron & Wade were teaming up

[red1]

2010 Kobe...... 21 PER.... 4.1 BPM
2010 Wade..... 28 PER.... 9.2 BPM

Lebron teamed up with a Kobe-like player but needed a miracle bailout to avoid going 1/4.

wade fell off a cliff. he admitted it himself.


he had his meniscus removed in college. and with his playstyle it was only a matter time.



being the veteran G that dwade was - he still played like an allstar despite being FAR from his 2006 and 2009 glory days



not everyone plays with a healthy stud like pippen

[tpols]

he said that was a mistake and was swept up in the energy and spectacle of the crowd.


No. :oldlol:

That was the commonly held sentiment that they would dominate the league going forward but they didn't and even failed in their 1st year together where you guys can't argue health or primes.

It is what it is.

[red1]

No. :oldlol:

That was the commonly held sentiment that they would dominate the league going forward but they didn't and even failed in their 1st year together where you guys can't argue health or primes.

It is what it is.

I'm talking about the "not 1 not 2 not 3" comment


if health permitted it was a possibility, wade and bosh ran out of steam but lebron was still going in 2014


even if they were healthy it was still a stupid thing for him to say. and again - I get the hate.

[red1]

No. :oldlol:

That was the commonly held sentiment that they would dominate the league going forward but they didn't and even failed in their 1st year together where you guys can't argue health or primes.

It is what it is.

do you know how stupid you sound?


how many teams dominate in their first year?


chemistry is a real thing. lebron and wade had to FIGURE OUT how to play together. because they are nearly the same player.


wade had to defer.

[3ba11]

Kobe started his career next to a near GOAT. Duncan same and had 4 titles in 10 years. Bird immediately had HOF teammates. Curry won titles basically as soon as he was healthy. Team got a steal contract because he was so unreliable. Then he's healthy and they are dominant.

None of those guys persevered through crap rosters to get to their first titles. Jordan is the only one that claim is remotely close to reasonable and with him the team was clearly on the upswing until they won titles. They weren't stagnating with bad roster, no assets and a front office blowing every trade and free agent acquisition.


Dirk persevered and won with Terry, while Lebron lost with Mo/Jamison and bounced

Jokic will persevere with Murray

Giannis persevered with Middletown

Of course Curry persevered, so that ruins your narrative too

Furthermore, Kobe persevered when Shaq left and only needed a 1x all-star (Pau) to win titles, while Lebron needed a 6x all-star at 3rd option and a Kobe-like stud at sidekick, aka night and day - Kobe persevered without completely stacking deck like Lebron

[Ainosterhaspie]

Dirk persevered and won with Terry, while Lebron lost with Mo/Jamison and bounced

Jokic will persevere with Murray

Giannis persevered with Middletown

And Curry persevered, so that ruins your narrative too

Curry didn't need to dominate the ball and impose spot-up roles, so his expert jumpshooting skill yielded superior teammate fits, strategic capacity/coaching and ultimately team ceiling/Finals record

And Kobe persevered when Shaq left and only needed a 1x all-star (Pau) to win titles, while Lebron needed a 6x all-star at 3rd option and a Kobe-like stud at sidekick, aka night and day - Kobe persevered without completely stacking deck like Lebron

Was responding to Tpols post a page back but got disrupted and a bunch of posts squeezed in. Every star I mentioned he mentioned and the only point i was making is that they are all bad examples for the point he was making.

[SouBeachTalents]

he said that was a mistake and was swept up in the energy and spectacle of the crowd. was pandering to his home crowd.


how is a 2-2 record a losing record? 4 finals and 2 chips is a great run. could've been a 3-peat if wade's knees didn't fall apart by 2014.





wade was a massively declined version of himself. please dont act like he played with prime wade outside of the first year in 2011.
tpols has literally never admitted Wade declined as a player after 2011. I've probably called him out on it a dozen times, yet he will be in every thread on the subject saying "He had Wade though!" when Wade was a shell of himself those last 2 playoff runs together.

[tpols]

tpols has literally never admitted Wade declined as a player after 2011. I've probably called him out on it a dozen times, yet he will be in every thread on the subject saying "He had Wade though!" when Wade was a shell of himself those last 2 playoff runs together.

Lebron lost with 2011 prime Wade.

That destroys every argument you've ever made even though you're lying about the fact that it wasn't just health but fit.

Which 2011 also proved.

[red1]

Lebron lost with 2011 prime Wade.

That destroys every argument you've ever made even though you're lying about the fact that it wasn't just health but fit. Which 2011 also proved.

first year


still working on chemistry




easy answer.

[red1]

tpols has literally never admitted Wade declined as a player after 2011. I've probably called him out on it a dozen times, yet he will be in every thread on the subject saying "He had Wade though!" when Wade was a shell of himself those last 2 playoff runs together.

he'll come around eventually


I think wade said it himself - he was hiding injuries those years

[3ba11]

tpols has literally never admitted Wade declined as a player after 2011. I've probably called him out on it a dozen times, yet he will be in every thread on the subject saying "He had Wade though!" when Wade was a shell of himself those last 2 playoff runs together.


Why does Lebron need the #2 producer in the league to win?

Wade was the #2 producer in the league when Lebron teamed up with him, so who cares if Wade declined to a 20-24 ppg player - that was enough for Kobe, MJ or Curry to win and they didn't have a perennial all-star 3rd option like Bosh and a shooter like Allen.

So why does Lebron need Wade to be completely dominant? Why can't Wade average the same as Klay, Pippen or Pau?

You're making the point that Lebron needed a lot more help to win.

[SouBeachTalents]

Why does Lebron need the #2 producer in the league to win?

Wade was the #2 producer in the league when Lebron teamed up with him, so who cares if Wade declined to a 20-24 ppg player - that was enough for Kobe, MJ or Curry to win and they didn't have a perennial all-star 3rd option like Bosh and a shooter like Allen.

So why does Lebron need Wade to be completely dominant? Why can't Wade average the same as Klay, Pippen or Pau?

You're making the point that Lebron needed a lot more help to win.
Averaging an inefficient 16 ppg is completely dominant now :lol We calling his performance in the 2014 Finals dominant too. That's what's so hilarious about this subject, Wade wasn't even playing at the "mere" 20 ppg level you're referring to, yet you and tpols try to pretend that he had some dominant supporting cast those last two years in Miami.

[Ainosterhaspie]

first year


still working on chemistry




easy answer.

It wasn't just a chemistry issue. LeBron leveled up that off-season because he had no remaining viable excuses for losing. "My teammates weren't good enough" wouldn't fly after that performance. So he put in work on himself and holes in his game and skill set and returned the next season a more complete player. Everybody always pushing agendas over 2011 and miss what should be the central focus. It was a wakeup call and he changed for the better. It shouldn't be excused and written off. It made him better. It shouldn't be the end of his legacy, it made him better.

Jordan had a similar leveling up after running into the Pistons stonewall year after year. He got bigger so he could handle the physicality. He learned to play in a system instead of hero balling all the time. He leveled up mentally and physically and became the GOAT of his day.

It doesn't make sense to take a guy's career prior to leveling up and push the narrative that that's the end of the story. Jordan got punked over and over by a guy who can't Crack the top 20 ATG list. That's a stupid narrative especially since Jordan got better because of losing to that guy, realized his full potential and played GOAT level after that.

Jordan was good enough to win titles and be a FMVP before that if the circumstances were right, but even with earlier titles he wouldn't have been as good a player. Same with LeBron pre 2011. Both hit circumstances that forced them to be better. Both responded by getting better. Both should be judged on what happened after they got better, not perpetually hounded for having room to grow as players.

[tpols]

Why does Lebron need the #2 producer in the league to win?

Wade was the #2 producer in the league when Lebron teamed up with him, so who cares if Wade declined to a 20-24 ppg player - that was enough for Kobe, MJ or Curry to win and they didn't have a perennial all-star 3rd option like Bosh and a shooter like Allen.

So why does Lebron need Wade to be completely dominant? Why can't Wade average the same as Klay, Pippen or Pau?

You're making the point that Lebron needed a lot more help to win.

He'll never answer to 2011 when both were prime or address the chemistry topic.

[3ba11]

Averaging an inefficient 16 ppg is completely dominant :lol You wanna see what that dude averaged in the 2014 Finals too. That's what's so hilarious about this subject, Wade wasn't even playing at the "mere" 20 ppg level you're referring too. and you and tpols still make it out to seem like he had some dominant supporting cast those last two years in Miami.


Wade averaged 20/5/5 on 47% in the 2014 ECF, while Lebron only averaged 23, so no one was required to do much on a super-team against a diluted conference.

Wade had a bad Finals, but tons of guys won with that type of help like 2006 Wade, 2003 Duncan, 94' Hakeem, or 96 and 98' Jordan.. And those guys didn't have a 3rd star like Bosh but unfortunately, Bosh's capacity to step up was taken away by being reduced to a spot-up role in the simpleton Lebron-ball system (same thing with Love).. It's one of the main reasons that Lebron had weaker teams than expected in Miami and the 2nd stint in Cleveland.

Btw, Wade averaged 20/5/5 on 48% in the 2013 Finals, so Lebron never won a Finals without a 20 ppg sidekick.

[tpols]

It wasn't just a chemistry issue. LeBron leveled up that off-season because he had no remaining viable excuses for losing. "My teammates weren't good enough" wouldn't fly after that performance. So he put in work on himself and holes in his game and skill set and returned the next season a more complete player. Everybody always pushing agendas over 2011 and miss what should be the central focus. It was a wakeup call and he changed for the better. It shouldn't be excused and written off. It made him better. It shouldn't be the end of his legacy, it made him better.

Jordan had a similar leveling up after running into the Pistons stonewall year after year. He got bigger so he could handle the physicality. He learned to play in a system instead of hero balling all the time. He leveled up mentally and physically and became the GOAT of his day.

It doesn't make sense to take a guy's career prior to leveling up and push the narrative that that's the end of the story. Jordan got punked over and over by a guy who can't Crack the top 20 ATG list. That's a stupid narrative especially since Jordan got better because of losing to that guy, realized his full potential and played GOAT level after that.

Jordan was good enough to win titles and be a FMVP before that if the circumstances were right, but even with earlier titles he wouldn't have been as good a player. Same with LeBron pre 2011. Both hit circumstances that forced them to be better. Both responded by getting better. Both should be judged on what happened after they got better, not perpetually hounded for having room to grow as players.

Thats a poor analogy since MJ produced well vs Detroit while Pippen wet the bed... and Wade produced well in 2011 while Lebron wet the bed.

The GOAT standard is hard to live up to. Lebron is an all time great basketball player... one of the GOATs... but he doesn't stack up to MJ.

[rmt]

https://upperdeckstore.com/media/catalog/product/cache/cca31960a2955b031df57569d9e7c7f0/l/e/lebron-james-front-page-photo-81552_2.jpg

I wonder where you got this from - I've lived in Miami for over 4 decades, and I've never heard of this newspaper.

[TheMan]

who's the best perimeter defender jordan went up against? :oldlol:

Sidney Moncreif and Michael Cooper come to mind. To act like he never faced elite defenders is disingenuous at best and trolling at worse...

[TheMan]

To address OP's premise, not a fan of LeBron but to say he didn't live up to expectations is trolling. He isn't the GOAT IMO but he is an all time great, I'm just not a fan of his ball dominating style of play.

[3ba11]

To address OP's premise, not a fan of LeBron but to say he didn't live up to expectations is trolling. He isn't the GOAT IMO but he is an all time great, I'm just not a fan of his ball dominating style of play.


Lebron didn't live up to expectations because no one expects the "best prospect ever" to need to team-up with rivals and hand-pick super-teams and preseason favorites.

Imagine if Jokic teams up with Giannis to win - will that be meeting expections?

No one expects that this is the only way the "best prospect ever" can have some winning success and win a few titles.

So no, he didn't live up to expectations because he couldn't do anything without teaming up with rivals and hand-picking super-teams.. and yet he STILL couldn't win as much as his peers like Duncan or Kobe and couldn't exceed curry.. It's a joke tbh.. A charade

[ShawkFactory]

The "expectations" for this type prospect is to be a hugely impactful or superstar level player. That's literally it.

All the other circumstances and development that can be involved throughout the course of a career are unpredictable are not taken into account at this stage. It's really not a difficult concept.

[TheMan]

Lebron didn't live up to expectations because no one expects the "best prospect ever" to need to team-up with rivals and hand-pick super-teams and preseason favorites.

Imagine if Jokic teams up with Giannis to win - will that be meeting expections?

No one expects that this is the only way the "best prospect ever" can have some winning success and win a few titles.

So no, he didn't live up to expectations because he couldn't do anything without teaming up with rivals and hand-picking super-teams.. and yet he STILL couldn't win as much as his peers like Duncan or Kobe and couldn't exceed curry.. It's a joke tbh.. A charade

I get your argument but you're looking at it too black and white. Yes it was annoying that LeBron had to team hop and stack the deck to win and he did set a horrible precedent by ushering in the Super Friends era but regardless, he's been beasting since he joined the league, 4 titles, 4 FMVPs, 4 MVPs and the all time scoring record...you simply can't say he didn't overall meet expectations...and he can still get one more ring albeit he's no longer the Lakers' top dog, this Laker team goes as far as AD takes them, it would still be impressive to win a 5th title as a 38 year old Robin. I'm in agreement with you that he isn't the GOAT, too much team hopping, stacking the deck and stat padding but still, he has accomplished shit that 99% of all the NBA players that ever played in the league ever did. You can't say with a straight face that he didn't live up to expectations coming out of HS :facepalm

[Ainosterhaspie]

Thats a poor analogy since MJ produced well vs Detroit while Pippen wet the bed... and Wade produced well in 2011 while Lebron wet the bed.

The GOAT standard is hard to live up to. Lebron is an all time great basketball player... one of the GOATs... but he doesn't stack up to MJ.

Adversity drove both to improve their game and when they did they started winning titles.

[3ba11]

The "expectations" for this type prospect is to be a hugely impactful or superstar level player. That's literally it.

All the other circumstances and development that can be involved throughout the course of a career are unpredictable are not taken into account at this stage. It's really not a difficult concept.


So why was I able to predict that Luka's skillset would need super-team help to win just like Lebron did?.. I made a thread about this before Luka's disastrous season this year.

Winning isn't some random occurance

Lebron should've won with Mo just like Dirk won with Terry... But unfortunately, Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles doesn't develop teammates, chemistry, or strategy and coaching like Dirk's skillset, so he needed a lot more help to win than Dirk did.

Ultimately, any all-time great will enjoy GM's bending over backwards for them, so they'll have many teams that fit their skillset with sufficient on-paper talent to win.. And again, this stuff is predictable - any abnormal ball-dominator will impose spot-up roles that yield weaker chemistry and strategy, thereby needing more help.

[3ba11]

I get your argument but you're looking at it too black and white. Yes it was annoying that LeBron had to team hop and stack the deck to win and he did set a horrible precedent by ushering in the Super Friends era but regardless, he's been beasting since he joined the league, 4 titles, 4 FMVPs, 4 MVPs and the all time scoring record...you simply can't say he didn't overall meet expectations...and he can still get one more ring albeit he's no longer the Lakers' top dog, this Laker team goes as far as AD takes them, it would still be impressive to win a 5th title as a 38 year old Robin. I'm in agreement with you that he isn't the GOAT, too much team hopping, stacking the deck and stat padding but still, he has accomplished shit that 99% of all the NBA players that ever played in the league ever did. You can't say with a straight face that he didn't live up to expectations coming out of HS :facepalm


^^^ Lebron needed to team up with rivals to achieve those accomplishments, so they're meaningless just like it would be meaningless achievements for Jokic to team up with Giannis to win the conference and titles.

[ShawkFactory]

So why was I able to predict that Luka's skillset would need super-team help to win just like Lebron did?.. I made a thread about this before Luka's disastrous season this year.

Winning isn't some random occurance

Lebron should've won with Mo just like Dirk won with Terry... But unfortunately, Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles doesn't develop teammates, chemistry, or strategy and coaching like Dirk's skillset, so he needed a lot more help to win than Dirk did.

Ultimately, any all-time great will enjoy GM's bending over backwards for them and will have many teams that fit their skillset and have sufficient on-paper talent to win.. And again, this stuff is predictable - any abnormal ball-dominator will impose spot-up roles that yield weaker chemistry and strategy, thereby needing more help.

Winning isn't necessarily a random occurrence. But there are factors that aren't to be predicted...it's impossible. Luka literally just turned 24 years old. Who knows what his game and resume will look like in 5 or 10 years. Maybe he changes his game up and improves in some areas, maybe he dedicates himself more to being in shape, maybe *insert other factor here*

With Wemby (I know this thread isn't about Wemby in the slightest but about Lebron and the same things you always say about him, but I'll throw some common sense in just for the hell of it), if he turns out like maybe...KAT? Not necessarily a bust but yea people will say he didn't live up to expectations. If he turns into a player on the level of truly elite guys of the last decade like Giannis, Curry, Lebron, KD, Jokic, and Kawhi? No one will be saying anything. His expectation is to be that level of player. Anything else is impossible to predict right now.

[TheMan]

So why was I able to predict that Luka's skillset would need super-team help to win just like Lebron did?.. I made a thread about this before Luka's disastrous season this year.

Winning isn't some random occurance

Lebron should've won with Mo just like Dirk won with Terry... But unfortunately, Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles doesn't develop teammates, chemistry, or strategy and coaching like Dirk's skillset, so he needed a lot more help to win than Dirk did.

Ultimately, any all-time great will enjoy GM's bending over backwards for them, so they'll have many teams that fit their skillset with sufficient on-paper talent to win.. And again, this stuff is predictable - any abnormal ball-dominator will impose spot-up roles that yield weaker chemistry and strategy, thereby needing more help.

LeBron did need help but so did every all time great that ever played. It's a team game, even MJ who burst onto the scene as a rookie, he was putting up insane stats trying to carry a bunch of coked out stiffs, he still wasn't winning shit until his teammates started carrying their own weight. But yeah, LeBron has needed much more help than MJ, Jordan would've ended up with at least 10 titles if he had Shaq, Irving, KLove, Wade, Bosh, RAllen, AD throughout his career :lol

[3ba11]

Winning isn't necessarily a random occurrence. But there are factors that aren't to be predicted...it's impossible. Luka literally just turned 24 years old. Who knows what his game and resume will look like in 5 or 10 years. Maybe he changes his game up and improves in some areas, maybe he dedicates himself more to being in shape, maybe *insert other factor here*





Lebron didn't change anything by 2010 - he just formed super-teams because his existing skillset imposed spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.

He actually added some wrinkles to his game AFTER teaming up and losing with Wade/Bosh







With Wemby (I know this thread isn't about Wemby in the slightest but about Lebron and the same things you always say about him, but I'll throw some common sense in just for the hell of it), if he turns out like maybe...KAT? Not necessarily a bust but yea people will say he didn't live up to expectations. If he turns into a player on the level of truly elite guys of the last decade like Giannis, Curry, Lebron, KD, Jokic, and Kawhi? No one will be saying anything. His expectation is to be that level of player. Anything else is impossible to predict right now.


We're talking about meeting expectation - aka doing what you're expected to do - only Lebron gets a cookie for this..

So Lebron gets a cookie for meeting expectation, while most guys must exceed expectation or overcome and persevere with bad teams to eventually win..

Lebron didn't do any of this.. He needed to team up with rivals to win and still yielded perennial underdogs and losers even with the hand-picked super-teams and preseason favorites.. The only way that he exceeded expectation is the longevity

[ralph_i_el]

Nobody is ever going to do what MJ did again. He was too popular, and the sport grew because of him. It's just a tougher league to win in now imo. There are more viable championship contenders now for anyone to go 6/6 in the finals again.

Let's just let this kid live and enjoy the ride.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron didn't change anything by 2010 - he just formed super-teams because his existing skillset imposed spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.

He actually added some wrinkles to his game AFTER teaming up and losing with Wade/Bosh






We're talking about meeting expectation - aka doing what you're expected to do - only Lebron gets a cookie for this..

So Lebron gets a cookie for meeting expectation, while most guys must exceed expectation or overcome and persevere with bad teams to eventually win..

Lebron didn't do any of this.. He needed to team up with rivals to win and still yielded perennial underdogs and losers even with the hand-picked super-teams and preseason favorites.. The only way that he exceeded expectation is the longevity

Okay so you agree...Lebron lived up to the hype. Whether or not he gets a cookie for it was not part of your argument until now.

Moving on.

[Phoenix]

Two threads (this and the Morant one) and everyone giving 3ball the attention he craves, knowing full well it's exactly what he wants. Kudos to everyone.... :applause:

[red1]

I wonder where you got this from - I've lived in Miami for over 4 decades, and I've never heard of this newspaper.

google


there are a lot more


https://i.huffpost.com/gen/1204726/thumbs/o-HEAT-570.jpg
https://i.huffpost.com/gen/1204730/thumbs/o-HEAT-570.jpg?6

[red1]

He'll never answer to 2011 when both were prime or address the chemistry topic.

its not that complicated


they won the next two years against similar competition



it just shows it was a chemistry issue - even more apparent when you consider wade declined for the title runs

[Full Court]

If Ja Morant would have teamed up with Wade and Bosch, he would have won a championship.

Same goes for Tatum.

And Butler.

And AD.

And Pippen.

And Luka.

Etc.

Etc.

[SaltyMeatballs]

If Ja Morant would have teamed up with Wade and Bosch, he would have won a championship.

Same goes for Tatum.

And Butler.

And AD.

And Pippen.

And Luka.

Etc.

Etc.

https://media.tenor.com/MnfWyfZZmcgAAAAM/laughing-cracking-up.gif

[RRR3]

https://media.tenor.com/MnfWyfZZmcgAAAAM/laughing-cracking-up.gif
“Bosch”

[plowking]

bruh he thinks anderson fcuking varejao and horace grant are on the same exact tier "they're just rebounders"





Turns out Horace Grant was the 7th most effective player of his time ahead of guys like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson using all the stats he likes to use. Thanks to Im Still Ballin for finding those stats.

So LeBron had his Dwade and Bosh rolled into one player.

[plowking]

If Ja Morant would have teamed up with Wade and Bosch, he would have won a championship.

Same goes for Tatum.

And Butler.

And AD.

And Pippen.

And Luka.

Etc.

Etc.


A guy like Durant teamed up with two better guys in Harden and Kyrie and couldn't win. Also Harden and Westbrook. Now Booker, Ayton and Paul.

I thought Durant was better than Bron - yet he couldn't win with even more talent stacked teams than the Heat?

[John8204]

If Ja Morant would have teamed up with Wade and Bosch, he would have won a championship.

Same goes for Tatum.

And Butler.

And AD.

And Pippen.

And Luka.

Etc.

Etc.

Kobe couldn't win with Nash and Howard

Jordan couldn't win with Gervin or Stackhouse

Hakeem couldn't win with Barkley and Pippen

Shaq couldn't win with KG, Penny, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Lebron James, Paul Pierce, Karl Malone

Dantley couldn't win on the greatest team ever assembled

What did Wade, Bosh, Love, AD, and Kyrie do on their own?

[tpols]

If Ja Morant would have teamed up with Wade and Bosch, he would have won a championship.

Same goes for Tatum.

And Butler.

And AD.

And Pippen.

And Luka.

Etc.

Etc.

If prime Wade is as good as people made him out to be which is => Kobe, him and Bosh and good role players should be a title contender. And that shouldn't take much All Star talent to add onto to make it overwhelming. Prime Richard Jefferson should be enough.

[plowking]

If prime Wade is as good as people made him out to be which is => Kobe, him and Bosh and good role players should be a title contender. And that shouldn't take much All Star talent to add onto to make it overwhelming. Prime Richard Jefferson should be enough.

The issue is - and I say this is a Heat fan - there was 1 season of "prime" Wade.

The Wade that won that title against the Spurs was a net negative. Say all you want about him being Wade, there were several shooting guards in the league better than him at that point. He was horrid outside of one or two games in the finals, and I'm pretty sure we played a bunch of playoff games without him.
By the next season where we lost to the Spurs - he was even worse.

Since the topic of Bosh came up - he was never a first option kind of guy. He played on a bad team that would miss the playoffs, make the playoffs, it didn't matter. A guy that put up pretty stats because no one else would on his team. I remember being on here at the time there was chat the Heat were after a PF and we had no idea Bron would come as well - the majority of us had Amare way ahead of Bosh, and even Boozer ahead of him. Bosh was my last choice in the list of options.

Since you're a Kobe fan - were the Heat more stacked than the Kobe title Lakers? Probably. Not by much though. Having Bynum and Gasol was massive - and Gasol is comfortably a better player than Bosh. Like - clearly.
The Heat also played far better competition outside of those Mavericks who they should have beat.

[warriorfan]

The issue is - and I say this is a Heat fan - there was 1 season of "prime" Wade.

The Wade that won that title against the Spurs was a net negative. Say all you want about him being Wade, there were several shooting guards in the league better than him at that point. He was horrid outside of one or two games in the finals, and I'm pretty sure we played a bunch of playoff games without him.
By the next season where we lost to the Spurs - he was even worse.

Since the topic of Bosh came up - he was never a first option kind of guy. He played on a bad team that would miss the playoffs, make the playoffs, it didn't matter. A guy that put up pretty stats because no one else would on his team. I remember being on here at the time there was chat the Heat were after a PF and we had no idea Bron would come as well - the majority of us had Amare way ahead of Bosh, and even Boozer ahead of him. Bosh was my last choice in the list of options.

Since you're a Kobe fan - were the Heat more stacked than the Kobe title Lakers? Probably. Not by much though. Having Bynum and Gasol was massive - and Gasol is comfortably a better player than Bosh. Like - clearly.
The Heat also played far better competition outside of those Mavericks who they should have beat.

dude, bosh made all nba before lebron and was a 11 time all star and potentially more until his career prematurely ended

[3ba11]

The whole point is to build a championship team, so if you fail and need to team up with your frieking opponents - game over - you failed and are literally teaming up with your opponents - there's no bigger fail.

That's the reason that Lebron never lived up to expectation - the "decision" to give up and team up with his opponents

Also, the story every single year is that Lebron needs more help - how can someone that's supposed to be great need so much help?.. There's never been a player where the story was always about needing more help, yet that's the story every year with Lebron.. And even after teaming up and getting super-teams, he fields perennial underdogs and losers - his skillset of abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position (imposing spot-up roles) yields weak teammate fits, strategy/coaching and ultimately crappier teams that need more help (low team ceiling/Finals record).

[ShawkFactory]

Two threads (this and the Morant one) and everyone giving 3ball the attention he craves, knowing full well it's exactly what he wants. Kudos to everyone.... :applause:

He’s cut off at 8:30 EST this evening.

[RRR3]

He’s cut off at 8:30 EST this evening.
He's an old man, not a teenager.

[Axe]

1-9

[plowking]

dude, bosh made all nba before lebron and was a 11 time all star and potentially more until his career prematurely ended

Bosh made all NBA once... ONCE. 1 time.
All star? Cool. He was Canada's token good player at the time.
He went to the playoffs twice - a long time ago before joining the Heat - and was ass average.

If Bosh doesn't join the Heat, he goes down a Shareef, Larry Johnson, Jamison, David West route. The "oh yeah, he was a decent PF back in the day" when someone actually remembers to bring him up.

Certain players get the benefit of a reputation that outweighs how good they actually are - while others get it the other way.
Zach Randolph was constantly underrated his whole career.
Reggie Miller overrated.
Blake Griffin overrated.
Jamal Crawford didn't get love until later in his career.

Bosh falls very much into the overrated one since he was in a big market, and hyped. You had a guy like Aldridge who was better - and yet you wouldn't know it since he doesn't have the story Bosh does.

EDIT - I don't even care for the teammates Bron played with debate, because he has clearly played on some great teams, but Bosh is dead ass overrated historically. And I get part of the reason on this board is because he played with LeBron - but try and take that away from any argument we're having here, and he just isn't all that. Your standard, slightly above average PF in the vein of Boozer, Randolph, Jamison and a few others.

[ShawkFactory]

He's an old man, not a teenager.

That’s just when the game starts and tired repeated rhetoric becomes boring again.

[3ba11]

That’s just when the game starts and tired repeated rhetoric becomes boring again.


It's objective fact - the objective is to build a championship team - that's a fact.

So if you fail and need to team up with your frieking opponents - game over - you failed and are literally teaming up with your opponents - there's no bigger fail.

That's the reason that Lebron never lived up to expectation - it was his "decision" to give up and team up with his opponents.. It's stunning that such a fraud has so many fans - it's a sign of a declining society that gets dumber by the day

Was the "expectation" upon entering the league that Lebron would team up with his opponents? how is that meeting expectation?.. It's objectively failing the expectation because no one expected him to team up with opponents.

[ShawkFactory]

It's objective fact - the objective is to build a championship team - that's a fact.

So if you fail and need to team up with your frieking opponents - game over - you failed and are literally teaming up with your opponents - there's no bigger fail.

That's the reason that Lebron never lived up to expectation - it was his "decision" to give up and team up with his opponents.. It's stunning that such a fraud has so many fans - it's a sign of a declining society that gets dumber by the cday

8:27.

Nice timing.

[3ba11]

8:27.

Nice timing.


Lakers getting blownied tonight - you won't even watch the 4th

[warriorfan]

Bosh made all NBA once... ONCE. 1 time.
All star? Cool. He was Canada's token good player at the time.
He went to the playoffs twice - a long time ago before joining the Heat - and was ass average.

If Bosh doesn't join the Heat, he goes down a Shareef, Larry Johnson, Jamison, David West route. The "oh yeah, he was a decent PF back in the day" when someone actually remembers to bring him up.

Certain players get the benefit of a reputation that outweighs how good they actually are - while others get it the other way.
Zach Randolph was constantly underrated his whole career.
Reggie Miller overrated.
Blake Griffin overrated.
Jamal Crawford didn't get love until later in his career.

Bosh falls very much into the overrated one since he was in a big market, and hyped. You had a guy like Aldridge who was better - and yet you wouldn't know it since he doesn't have the story Bosh does.

EDIT - I don't even care for the teammates Bron played with debate, because he has clearly played on some great teams, but Bosh is dead ass overrated historically. And I get part of the reason on this board is because he played with LeBron - but try and take that away from any argument we're having here, and he just isn't all that. Your standard, slightly above average PF in the vein of Boozer, Randolph, Jamison and a few others.

I don’t know we can agree to disagree I guess. If you want to call Bosh a slightly better than average power forward….I don’t even know what to say about that

[sdot_thadon]

To answer the OP question, yes Lebron has done this already. A legit candidate with whatever caveats you listed, imagine how bad a m'fer he is to be considered goat or #2 despite these things you say......



Lebron didn't change anything by 2010 - he just formed super-teams because his existing skillset imposed spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.

He actually added some wrinkles to his game AFTER teaming up and losing with Wade/Bosh
Incorrect, while his moveset didn't vary much up to this point, because duh he was beyond unstoppable with what he already had, they started experimenting hard with WHERE he was operating on the floor In different matchups. He had been spending short stints at PF already by 2010 and put up astronomical numbers there but he didn't like the banging. His speed and strength from the perimeter allowed him to do what he wanted for the most part and he was able to start the offense from the high post like he did in the Orlando series which was a completely different look for him. In Miami they just expanded on the experiments Mike Brown and Co. started.





We're talking about meeting expectation - aka doing what you're expected to do - only Lebron gets a cookie for this..

So in 2003 in high school ESPN televised games, you expected a goat candidate all time leading scorer with only less mvps than Mj, Russell, and Kareem? And only less fmvp than Mj? Cause i know I didn't expect any of that.

[3ba11]

To answer the OP question, yes Lebron has done this already. A legit candidate with whatever caveats you listed, imagine how bad a m'fer he is to be considered goat or #2 despite these things you say......



Incorrect, while his moveset didn't vary much up to this point, because duh he was beyond unstoppable with what he already had, they started experimenting hard with WHERE he was operating on the floor In different matchups. He had been spending short stints at PF already by 2010 and put up astronomical numbers there but he didn't like the banging. His speed and strength from the perimeter allowed him to do what he wanted for the most part and he was able to start the offense from the high post like he did in the Orlando series which was a completely different look for him. In Miami they just expanded on the experiments Mike Brown and Co. started.






So in 2003 in high school ESPN televised games, you expected a goat candidate all time leading scorer with only less mvps than Mj, Russell, and Kareem? And only less fmvp than Mj? Cause i know I didn't expect any of that.


No one expected Lebron to fail at building a champion and then team up with opponents, so that's why he didn't meet expectation

He was a massive loser and bed-wetter before the "decision" to team up with opponents - he was locked up, lottery or upset every year from 2004-2011, except 2006 (although only 26 on 46% vs Pistons).

[sdot_thadon]

No one expected Lebron to fail at building a champion and then team up with opponents, so that's why he didn't meet expectation

He was a massive loser and bed-wetter before the "decision" to team up with opponents - he was locked up, lottery or upset every year from 2004-2011, except 2006 (although only 26 on 46% vs Pistons).

Exactly buddy, Noone expected such high marks for an 18 year old kid. Just expecting him to be a great player was questionable enough. He's exceeded, no, blown every expectation set throughout his career out of the water more or less. I know you need your hate porn though so keep it doom and gloom on a guy who is untouchable from a legacy standpoint save for a very small handful of guys to ever play.

[red1]

Bosh made all NBA once... ONCE. 1 time.
All star? Cool. He was Canada's token good player at the time.
He went to the playoffs twice - a long time ago before joining the Heat - and was ass average.

If Bosh doesn't join the Heat, he goes down a Shareef, Larry Johnson, Jamison, David West route. The "oh yeah, he was a decent PF back in the day" when someone actually remembers to bring him up.

Certain players get the benefit of a reputation that outweighs how good they actually are - while others get it the other way.
Zach Randolph was constantly underrated his whole career.
Reggie Miller overrated.
Blake Griffin overrated.
Jamal Crawford didn't get love until later in his career.

Bosh falls very much into the overrated one since he was in a big market, and hyped. You had a guy like Aldridge who was better - and yet you wouldn't know it since he doesn't have the story Bosh does.

EDIT - I don't even care for the teammates Bron played with debate, because he has clearly played on some great teams, but Bosh is dead ass overrated historically. And I get part of the reason on this board is because he played with LeBron - but try and take that away from any argument we're having here, and he just isn't all that. Your standard, slightly above average PF in the vein of Boozer, Randolph, Jamison and a few others.

all facts



completely accurate.

[red1]

The issue is - and I say this is a Heat fan - there was 1 season of "prime" Wade.

The Wade that won that title against the Spurs was a net negative. Say all you want about him being Wade, there were several shooting guards in the league better than him at that point. He was horrid outside of one or two games in the finals, and I'm pretty sure we played a bunch of playoff games without him.
By the next season where we lost to the Spurs - he was even worse.

Since the topic of Bosh came up - he was never a first option kind of guy. He played on a bad team that would miss the playoffs, make the playoffs, it didn't matter. A guy that put up pretty stats because no one else would on his team. I remember being on here at the time there was chat the Heat were after a PF and we had no idea Bron would come as well - the majority of us had Amare way ahead of Bosh, and even Boozer ahead of him. Bosh was my last choice in the list of options.

Since you're a Kobe fan - were the Heat more stacked than the Kobe title Lakers? Probably. Not by much though. Having Bynum and Gasol was massive - and Gasol is comfortably a better player than Bosh. Like - clearly.
The Heat also played far better competition outside of those Mavericks who they should have beat.

I'm a huge dwade fan as well and this is all facts.