MJ vs LBJ in 4th quarter scoring in the NBA Finals

[warriorfan]

MJ has 332 points in the 4th Q over 6 Finals

Lebron has 306 points in the 4th Q over 10 Finals

[Full Court]

There's levels to greatness. MJ is about 3 levels above Lebron.


There's also a reason why the Bronie is known as LeShrivel.

[RRR3]

OP still distraught curry once again got owned by LeBron without papa Durant or injuries to save him

[Bacchus]

Jordan has played 20 less 4th quarters than Lebron

[Spurs m8]

Yeah no surprise.

This guy is so fvcking junk when it matters...somehow keeps getting worse

[Spurs m8]

How are the bronies gonna mental gymnastics out of this one?

[SaltyMeatballs]

Source? OP could just be making this shit up because according to statmuse (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lerbon-james-career-4th-qtr-stats-in-nba-finals#:~:text=LeBron%20James%20has%20averaged%208 .7,NBA%20Finals%20in%20his%20career.), LeBron has averaged 8.7 ppg in the 4th quarter in 27 finals games. That amounts to 235 points which is way off from what OP said.

[3ba11]

OP still distraught curry once again got owned by LeBron without papa Durant or injuries to save him


Unlike last year, Curry didn't have any scoring options because personal issues took out Wiggins, while Dray took out Poole and age took out Klay.

So it was a 1-man team versus a league-manufactured roster and a bevy of scoring options

[And1AllDay]

OP still distraught curry once again got owned by LeBron without papa Durant or injuries to save him

:oldlol:

[Spurs m8]

Deflection, I see...

[3ba11]

:oldlol:


Jordan.... 9.76
Lebron.... 5.66

an average of 4.1 points more in each 4th quarter for Jordan.

(Jordan didn't play in 1 of the 4th quarters of the 98' Finals)

[And1AllDay]

Jordan.... 9.76
Lebron.... 5.66

an average of 4.1 points more in each 4th quarter for Jordan.

Jordan didn't play in 1 of the 4th quarters of the 98' Finals

who cares?

7900 > 5900

thats all we need to see

[SATAN]

OP still distraught curry once again got owned by LeBron without papa Durant or injuries to save him

:yaohappy:

[3ba11]

who cares?

7900 > 5900

thats all we need to see


Lebron played much longer, while Jordan dominated much more (played far superior basketball, including low turnovers or ball-domination and expert jumpshooting skill - this fostered superior teammate fits and strategic capacity/coaching, so he didn't need as much help and had higher team ceilings/Finals records)

[And1AllDay]

Lebron played much longer, while Jordan dominated much more (played far superior basketball, including low turnovers or ball-domination and expert jumpshooting skill - this fostered superior teammate fits and strategic capacity/coaching, so he didn't need as much help and had higher team ceilings/Finals records)

playing longer means nothing

short quitter career hurts mikey boy, not bran

[Axe]

Jordan.... 9.76
Lebron.... 5.66

an average of 4.1 points more in each 4th quarter for Jordan.

(Jordan didn't play in 1 of the 4th quarters of the 98' Finals)
1-9

[ImKobe]

MJ also has 2 more wins in 4 less series played in the Finals. 24 - 11 vs 22 - 33 :oldlol:

[3ba11]

The gap in 4th quarter scoring average (4 points) accounts for most of the gap in their overall Finals average (33.6 to 28.4)

[SATAN]

Being a shot jacking ball hog is where it's at apparently.

[3ba11]

Being a shot jacking ball hog is where it's at apparently.


Jordan is the only player in history that never had a go-to teammate, so he was forced win with secondary producers and defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) in every series (unique to MJ)

Everyone in history needed teammates to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led his sidekick by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES (edit: there's 3 series where MJ led by 9, 8 and 4 pts)

[And1AllDay]

Jordan is the only player in history that never had a go-to teammate, so he was forced win with secondary producers and defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) in every series (unique to MJ)

Everyone in history needed teammates to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led his sidekick by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES (edit: there's 3 series where MJ led by 9, 8 and 4 pts)



yeah right who was kobes go to?

pau fu gasol?

kobe > mike

[Gudo]

MJ has 332 points in the 4th Q over 6 Finals

Lebron has 306 points in the 4th Q over 10 Finals

This must be a typo. Is this right?

[GimmeThat]

are open shots now a bad thing in the 4th quarter in the finals?

[Airupthere]

MJ also has 2 more wins in 4 less series played in the Finals. 24 - 11 vs 22 - 33 :oldlol:

So pain 33x in the finals? Considering his stacked teams, losing 33x is a lot of pain.

[GimmeThat]

Considering his stacked teams

thought it was considering his stacked teams, there were a lot of pleasure

[Full Court]

Jordan also has a higher career finals 3pt % than Lebron does.

There's just no getting around that LeShrivel is the biggest choker of all time.

[GimmeThat]

Jordan also has a higher career finals 3pt % than Lebron does.

There's just no getting around that LeShrivel is the biggest choker of all time.

that's just the Auerbach cigar blood line

[dankok8]

4th quarters can be blowouts so that data doesn't tell the whole story.

In terms of actual crunch time which is last 5 minutes of the game (4th quarter + OT) within 5 points.

Per 48: 36.4 pts, 11.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 30.7 %FG/25.9 %3P/88.9 %FT with 3.9 tov; 46.8 %TS

Lebron's line isn't amazing to say the least. Look at that efficiency! Too lazy now to compute Jordan's numbers for just the finals but we know he dominates Lebron in crunch-time for their entire playoff careers and since Lebron's finals crunch time stats are much worse than overall playoff average, Jordan surely has a massive edge. I might compute the numbers for MJ later.

[Soundwave]

LeBron's a great player, but there's no shame in not measuring in this aspect. Jordan's wheelhouse is the 4th quarter, to be a dominant scorer in that aspect. It's what he does.

Obviously LeBron is not going to be as good at that, no one is really. No shame in not being as good, this is the bread and butter why Jordan is still so highly regarded even 20+ years after retiring. 4th quarter was his time to go to work, and he was very smart about how he did. Kobe tried to emulate that but wasn't quite as good because he would sometimes force it too much (though when Kobe was hot he could be much the same), Jordan just had the perfect balance.

Jordan's ability to create shots for himself especially from the mid-range and at the rim especially under pressure is just unequaled. His whole game was basically built on that bedrock in the 90s.

[3ba11]

LeBron's a great player, but there's no shame in not measuring in this aspect. Jordan's wheelhouse is the 4th quarter, to be a dominant scorer in that aspect. It's what he does.

Obviously LeBron is not going to be as good at that, no one is really. No shame in not being as good, this is the bread and butter why Jordan is still so highly regarded even 20+ years after retiring. 4th quarter was his time to go to work, and he was very smart about how he did. Kobe tried to emulate that but wasn't quite as good because he would sometimes force it too much (though when Kobe was hot he could be much the same), Jordan just had the perfect balance.

Jordan's ability to create shots for himself especially from the mid-range and at the rim especially under pressure is just unequaled. His whole game was basically built on that bedrock in the 90s.


5 ppg in the 4th quarter in 10 Finals is pathetic for a so-called top 10 all-time player, especially when this includes horrific efficiency in clutch time (last 5 within 5)

[jlip]

Source? OP could just be making this shit up because according to statmuse (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lerbon-james-career-4th-qtr-stats-in-nba-finals#:~:text=LeBron%20James%20has%20averaged%208 .7,NBA%20Finals%20in%20his%20career.), LeBron has averaged 8.7 ppg in the 4th quarter in 27 finals games. That amounts to 235 points which is way off from what OP said.

So we are going to just ignore this post?

[3ba11]

Source? OP could just be making this shit up because according to statmuse (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lerbon-james-career-4th-qtr-stats-in-nba-finals#:~:text=LeBron%20James%20has%20averaged%208 .7,NBA%20Finals%20in%20his%20career.), LeBron has averaged 8.7 ppg in the 4th quarter in 27 finals games. That amounts to 235 points which is way off from what OP said.


Lebron played in 55 Finals games, not 27

One thing that can be verified on bballref and stats.nba.com is that Lebron shot 40% on 3.0 attempts in clutch-time of the 06-19' Playoffs, compared to 48% on 3.6 attempts for 97' and 98' Jordan - so OLD Jordan shot far better in the clutch on 20% bigger clutch burden

[Full Court]

LeBron's a great player, but there's no shame in not measuring in this aspect. Jordan's wheelhouse is the 4th quarter, to be a dominant scorer in that aspect. It's what he does.

Obviously LeBron is not going to be as good at that, no one is really. No shame in not being as good, this is the bread and butter why Jordan is still so highly regarded even 20+ years after retiring. 4th quarter was his time to go to work, and he was very smart about how he did. Kobe tried to emulate that but wasn't quite as good because he would sometimes force it too much (though when Kobe was hot he could be much the same), Jordan just had the perfect balance.

Jordan's ability to create shots for himself especially from the mid-range and at the rim especially under pressure is just unequaled. His whole game was basically built on that bedrock in the 90s.

Yes there is. There is lots of shame in being a choke artist.

[Airupthere]

Lebron played in 55 Finals games, not 27

One thing that can be verified on bballref and stats.nba.com is that Lebron shot 40% on 3.0 attempts in clutch-time of the 06-19' Playoffs, compared to 48% on 3.6 attempts for 97' and 98' Jordan - so OLD Jordan shot far better in the clutch on 20% bigger clutch burden

:lebronamazed:

[jlip]

Yeah. OP just made up those stats. I can't find them anywhere else other than his post.

Also, I just looked up LeBron's finals 4th quarter point totals on bballref. According to my calculation, his total is 398 points. I'm not going to go back and check to see if I made a mistake or not. Y'all can do it yourselves if you care to. Interestingly, his 2007 total, despite being a pretty bad finals, was rather solid at 39 total 4th quarter points in just four games. He actually had more 4th quarter points in the four 2007 finals games than he had in the 11 combined games of the 2011 and 2014 finals. Obviously three of the four finals games in 2007 were decided by single digits, and scoring more was required. His 2013 (54pts), 2015 (61pts), 2016 (57pts), and 2020 (55pts) were pretty strong 4th quarters as far as totals were concerned. I didn't bother to look at fg%. Fg% could have been good or bad. I don't care.

Unfortunately, Bballref only has 4th quarter finals box scores as far back as the 1997 Finals. MJ scored 64 total points in the 4th quarter of the '97 finals and 53 in the 4th quarter of the '98 finals. I would assume that his '91, '92 and '93 point totals would be closer to the '97 finals. I know that '96 was pretty low because of games 4,5, and 6.

[dankok8]

NBA Finals - Per 48 in Crunch Time: (Crunch time is last 5 minutes of the game 4th quarter and OT within 5 points)

Lebron (career): 36.4 pts, 11.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 30.7 %FG/25.9 %3P/88.9 %FT with 3.9 tov; 46.8 %TS
Jordan (97, 98): 53.0 pts, 9.0 reb, 4.0 ass, 2.0 stl, 0.0 blk on 44.2 %FG/25.0 %3P/77.8 %FT with 2.0 tov; 52.0 %TS

Jordan's stats are for 1997 and 1998 Finals only. Surely his career numbers are much better.

[1987_Lakers]

NBA Finals - Per 48 in Crunch Time: (Crunch time is last 5 minutes of the game 4th quarter and OT within 5 points)

Lebron (career): 36.4 pts, 11.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 30.7 %FG/25.9 %3P/88.9 %FT with 3.9 tov; 46.8 %TS
Jordan (97, 98): 53.0 pts, 9.0 reb, 4.0 ass, 2.0 stl, 0.0 blk on 44.2 %FG/25.0 %3P/77.8 %FT with 2.0 tov; 52.0 %TS

Jordan's stats are for 1997 and 1998 Finals only. Surely his career numbers are much better.

:roll:

[3ba11]

:roll:



What's so funny?

The stats show old Jordan scored 20 more points per 48 in clutch time

with HALF the turnovers and 45% FG to 30% for Lebron

Jordan was doing that at 34 and 35, while Lebron was lottery at 34 with Ingram/Kuzma

The details will always show Jordan as far superior

[3ba11]

Yeah. OP just made up those stats. I can't find them anywhere else other than his post.

Also, I just looked up LeBron's finals 4th quarter point totals on bballref. According to my calculation, his total is 398 points. I'm not going to go back and check to see if I made a mistake or not. Y'all can do it yourselves if you care to. Interestingly, his 2007 total, despite being a pretty bad finals, was rather solid at 39 total 4th quarter points in just four games. He actually had more 4th quarter points in the four 2007 finals games than he had in the 11 combined games of the 2011 and 2014 finals. Obviously three of the four finals games in 2007 were decided by single digits, and scoring more was required. His 2013 (54pts), 2015 (61pts), 2016 (57pts), and 2020 (55pts) were pretty strong 4th quarters as far as totals were concerned. I didn't bother to look at fg%. Fg% could have been good or bad. I don't care.

Unfortunately, Bballref only has 4th quarter finals box scores as far back as the 1997 Finals. MJ scored 64 total points in the 4th quarter of the '97 finals and 53 in the 4th quarter of the '98 finals. I would assume that his '91, '92 and '93 point totals would be closer to the '97 finals. I know that '96 was pretty low because of games 4,5, and 6.


My calculations say Lebron scored 399 fourth quarter points in 55 games, or 7.25 per fourth quarter

For Jordan, I can only find 97' and 98' where he scored 118 in 12 fourth quarters, or 9.8 per fourth quarter

So that's a 2.5 point advantage for old Jordan

His 91-93' Finals would show the best 4th quarter stats and bump his career average in the 4th well over 10 points and maybe even 11 or 12

[Baller789]

One cant just use 4th quarter points.

Because Lebron had blowout losses and he shamelessly padded his stats.

[TheMan]

Being a shot jacking ball hog is where it's at apparently.

No, winning more Finals game than losing them is where it's at.

[2qr3]

MJ has 332 points in the 4th Q over 6 Finals

Lebron has 306 points in the 4th Q over 10 Finals

These stats are very telling. It truly highlight Jordan's ability to rise to the occasion when the game is on the line. It's nothing against Lebron of course, but rather just shows why Jordan never even made to a game 7 of the finals.

[ImKobe]

Take into account that it's been much easier to score in the 2015- era of NBA as well, and Bran is still behind MJ in this stat. Lebron's played in 55 Finals games to MJ's 35. MJ has also won 2 more Finals games than Bran despite playing in 4 less series. Bran got swept & blown out quite a bit.

[jstern]

Take into account that it's been much easier to score in the 2015- era of NBA as well, and Bran is still behind MJ in this stat. Lebron's played in 55 Finals games to MJ's 35. MJ has also won 2 more Finals games than Bran despite playing in 4 less series. Bran got swept & blown out quite a bit.

This is a very good point. I looked at the Box scores for the 1998 Finals after reading your post, and only one team score above 88 points, with the Bulls scoring 96 in Game 3. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199806120CHI.html

The 1997 Box scores are a similar story. I'm too tired to check the rest of the series.

[dankok8]

:roll:

Yep. Hilarious how a 34/35 year old Jordan has dominant crunch time stats compared to Lebron.

[Baller789]

Scoring 40 back then is like scoring 50 now. Which makes Mikes scoring all the more impressive.

[red1]

I like this pic. I really do. :oldlol:


https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg

[Baller789]

I like this pic. I really do. :oldlol:


https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg

Gay people also like other men so...

[ImKobe]

I like this pic. I really do. :oldlol:




Sure you do..

Jordan played against Magic & beat him in the Finals for his first ring. I don't see anyone in ur dumb pic who's even close to Magic all-time.

[Baller789]

Sure you do..

Jordan played against Magic & beat him in the Finals for his first ring. I don't see anyone in ur dumb pic who's even close to Magic all-time.
Magic was also runner up MVP that year I believe.

[ImKobe]

Magic was also runner up MVP that year I believe.

Yeah, and he won MVP the year before and dominated through the first 3 rounds of the Playoffs leading up to that '91 Finals.

[Baller789]

Yeah, and he won MVP the year before and dominated through the first 3 rounds of the Playoffs leading up to that '91 Finals.

Lebron never faced a top ATG at that level.

[Da_Realist]

I like this pic. I really do. :oldlol:


https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg

Starks is the best representation of MJ's opposition? Lame. Even Starks was backed by Ewing in the middle and 3-4 bruising PF's. It was a team effort to defend MJ in all cases. It wasn't just John Starks. It wasn't just Gary Payton. Payton supposedly slowed down MJ in the 96 Finals but when George Karl left Payton on an island the next season, MJ hung 45 on him in Seattle. After that, Karl swore he would go back to treating MJ like a serious threat.

[BarberSchool]

MJ has 332 points in the 4th Q over 6 Finals

Lebron has 306 points in the 4th Q over 10 Finals

Now let’s see how many total games, and do the division for averages….

[GimmeThat]

MJ has 332 points in the 4th Q over 6 Finals

Lebron has 306 points in the 4th Q over 10 Finals

Now let’s see how many total games, and do the division for averages….

so Lebron's teammates just had to keep their poop down for the 4th, while Jordan's teammates were all using public bathrooms till the 4th.

[HoopsNY]

4th quarters can be blowouts so that data doesn't tell the whole story.

In terms of actual crunch time which is last 5 minutes of the game (4th quarter + OT) within 5 points.

Per 48: 36.4 pts, 11.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 30.7 %FG/25.9 %3P/88.9 %FT with 3.9 tov; 46.8 %TS

Lebron's line isn't amazing to say the least. Look at that efficiency! Too lazy now to compute Jordan's numbers for just the finals but we know he dominates Lebron in crunch-time for their entire playoff careers and since Lebron's finals crunch time stats are much worse than overall playoff average, Jordan surely has a massive edge. I might compute the numbers for MJ later.

Are you sure this is accurate? These numbers don't seem right.

[HoopsNY]

Starks is the best representation of MJ's opposition? Lame. Even Starks was backed by Ewing in the middle and 3-4 bruising PF's. It was a team effort to defend MJ in all cases. It wasn't just John Starks. It wasn't just Gary Payton. Payton supposedly slowed down MJ in the 96 Finals but when George Karl left Payton on an island the next season, MJ hung 45 on him in Seattle. After that, Karl swore he would go back to treating MJ like a serious threat.

It's a disingenuous take by LeBron stans to only focus on Starks but conveniently leave out how good defensively those Knicks teams were. Not to mention, if the focus is on individual scoring, then compare the scoring of the top 3 players on each team:

'91 Knicks

Ewing: 27 PPG
Vandeweghe: 17 PPG
Wilkins: 14 PPG

'92 Knicks

Ewing: 24 PPG
McDaniel: 14 PPG
Starks: 14 PPG

'93 Knicks

Ewing: 24 PPG
Starks: 18 PPG
Smith: 12 PPG

'96 Knicks

Ewing: 23 PPG
Mason: 15 PPG
Harper: 14 PPG

Compare them to the Celtics of '08-'10...

'08 Celtics

Pierce: 20 PPG
KG: 19 PPG
Allen: 17 PPG

'10 Celtics

Pierce: 18 PPG
Allen: 16 PPG
KG: 14 PPG

'11 Celtics

Pierce: 19 PPG
Allen: 17 PPG
KG: 15 PPG

'12 Celtics

Pierce: 19 PPG
KG: 16 PPG
Allen: 14 PPG

The Knicks generally played at a higher pace and the offenses favored Boston to an extent, but the differences are not significant when accounting for offensive and defensive rankings...

'91 Knicks: 16th ORTG/12th DRTG
'92 Knicks: 12th ORTG/ 2nd DRTG
'93 Knicks: 22nd ORTG/ 1st DRTG
'96 Knicks: 21st ORTG/ 4th DRTG

'08 Celtics: 10th ORTG/1st DRTG
'10 Celtics: 15th ORTG/5th DRTG
'11 Celtics: 18th ORTG/2nd DRTG
'12 Celtics: 27th ORTG/1st DRTG

You'll see LeBron stans continuously act like the Celtics are an all-time great rival team, which could be said about the '08 Celtics, but overall, the scoring of the top 3 and team rankings are comparable. They'll never mention that though. Instead, it's always "look at who was Mikey's greatest rivals!"

[HoopsNY]

MJ has 332 points in the 4th Q over 6 Finals

Lebron has 306 points in the 4th Q over 10 Finals

Where are you getting this info?

[dankok8]

Are you sure this is accurate? These numbers don't seem right.

It's from NBA.com. It should be 100% accurate.

[SATAN]

Players play to their strengths. What a shock! :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

Players play to their strengths. What a shock! :oldlol:

If you call choking a “strength”, then yes, you are correct.

[GimmeThat]

If you call choking a “strength”, then yes, you are correct.

choking is more lik Alzheimer tho

[HoopsNY]

It's from NBA.com. It should be 100% accurate.

They isolate the finals? Can you link us? Definitely interested to see this from NBA.com.

[Baller789]

MJ has 332 points in the 4th Q over 6 Finals

Lebron has 306 points in the 4th Q over 10 Finals

Now let’s see how many total games, and do the division for averages….

Even a bigger disparity if you adjust for pace.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


Jordan was the biggest-producer ever in the 4th quarter, while Lebron's 4th-quarter scoring was similar to a decent sidekick caliber, except worst-ever efficiency and turnover machine

[Shaquille O'Neal]

People forget this, and how awful Pippen was in the 1998 Finals due to his "back issues". Game 5 Pip = 6 points. Game 6? 8 pts. Imagine if Letard didn't have Kyrie hitting the game winner in 2016 or going for 41 pts on 71% shooting in one of the finals games. Or even 2012, which had Chalmers dropping in 25 pts, a Shane Battier Game with 7 3's, and a Mike Miller game with 8 3's?
Everything the Klutch Sports media machine has been telling you is a lie.

[HoopsNY]

People forget this, and how awful Pippen was in the 1998 Finals due to his "back issues". Game 5 Pip = 6 points. Game 6? 8 pts. Imagine if Letard didn't have Kyrie hitting the game winner in 2016 or going for 41 pts on 71% shooting in one of the finals games. Or even 2012, which had Chalmers dropping in 25 pts, a Shane Battier Game with 7 3's, and a Mike Miller game with 8 3's?
Everything the Klutch Sports media machine has been telling you is a lie.

Pippen may have had awful efficiency in game 5, but Kukoc went 11-13 (85%) with 30 points in that game. Everyone needs help and MJ is no exception.

[3ba11]

Everyone needs help





Not MJ

Only MJ had to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load).. Everyone in history had teammates match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led his sidekick by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES.. So only MJ was forced to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) in every series - this is statistical fact.

MJ simply needed the least help - he set the standard for the least help needed to have an unbeatable team or dynasty

Kareem had 9 guys be all-stars alongside him, while Magic, Lebron, Shaq, Duncan and everyone else had at least 6 all-star teammates..

MJ only had 1 all-star

And MJ's all-star teammate wasn't a franchise player or a dominant, great scoring sidekick and there was no 3rd scoring option.. It's simply the least help ever needed to have an unbeatable team or dynasty.