Was Scottie Pippen a top 5 nba player from 1993 to 1995??

[Lebron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd2GgvXt3SM

The Original Kawhi Leonard the Great Scottie Pippen finished 3rd in MVP Voting in 1993-1994. He was a top 5 player in the NBA without Michael Jordan.

Scottie Pippen 93-94 season age 28 year 7th:
3rd in MVP voting
Lead the Bulls to 55-27 record
NBA all-star/all-star game MVP
All-NBA first team
All first team defense
Defeated the Cavs in the first round of the 94 playoffs. An all-around great season for the HOF


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv7aWMfcDlk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snrVSSH1xWQ

[Sulico]

Yes he was.

They threepeated. Twice.

To threepeat you have to have second best player like Kobe or KD (even though warriors didn't threepeat, we all know they would've).

[3ba11]

.
PIPPEN WAS A WORSE PASSER THAN STOCKTON, HARDAWAY, PAYTON OR KJ AND IN ADDITION TO HAVING THE WORST PASSING AMONG NOTABLE 90'S SIDEKICKS, PIPPEN ALSO HAD THE WORST EFFICIENCY:

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg


AND SPACING:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s


WORST CLUTCH:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=259s

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-04-2022/B-6qB7.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif


LOWEST PEAK CAPABILITY (NOT ON SCOUTING REPORT):

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif


Pippen's low peak capability meant that MJ faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) for every season and series of his career, which is unique to Jordan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s


Pippen was a low-producing, lane-clogger that happened to be there when MJ entered his prime and MJ's goat ability to never lose once he got a single all-star (even a bricklayer like Pippen) allowed Pippen's "Iggy-caliber" to stick around and ride the winning spotlight to all-time status (most overrated player of all-time).

Ultimately, people forget that Magic demanded to play with Kareem or sit out the year - people forget that - it matters because it means he didn't win "organically", aka he didn't win via teammate development, chemistry, and strategic development/coaching.. This is common for ball-dominators because ball-dominators impose spot-up roles that stall young players, so they can't develop teammates (win organically) and also can't carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume).

Since ball-dominators can't win organically and can't carry the scoring load, they need all-time scoring help like Kareem, AD, Wade or Kyrie and all-star scorers at 3rd option.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters are the opposite - they can develop teammates (win organically) and carry the scoring load against top teams (sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume), so they can win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Klay, Pippen, Jason Terry, Lowry or Pau.. Since expert jumpshooters can win with less, they're superior to ball-dominators.. The top 10 all-time should be ranked based on who needed the least help to win, so expert jumpshooters should be at the top (MJ, Kobe, Bird, Curry), followed by centers (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq), foillowed by ball-dominators (Magic, Lebron).. This makes sense because Magic and Kareem are only 5.4 in the Finals, so they can't BOTH be top 5 - one or both must fall back and the aforementioned logic does that and puts them in their proper place.. Btw, notice how ball-dominators like Magic/Lebron are losers in the Finals (9-10) - if those 2 guys can't be winners on the championship level, than it's impossible for that brand of ball and skillset (ball-dominators).

[HoopologyPhD]

Pippen would be a C/PF in the modern L with his terrible handle and lack of outside shooting

[FultzNationRISE]

.
PIPPEN WAS A WORSE PASSER THAN STOCKTON, HARDAWAY, PAYTON OR KJ AND IN ADDITION TO HAVING THE WORST PASSING AMONG NOTABLE 90'S SIDEKICKS, PIPPEN ALSO HAD THE WORST EFFICIENCY:

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg


AND SPACING:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s


WORST CLUTCH:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=259s

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-04-2022/B-6qB7.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif


LOWEST PEAK CAPABILITY (NOT ON SCOUTING REPORT):

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif


Pippen's low peak capability meant that MJ faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) for every season and series of his career, which is unique to Jordan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s


Pippen was a low-producing, lane-clogger that happened to be there when MJ entered his prime and MJ's goat ability to never lose once he got a single all-star (even a bricklayer like Pippen) allowed Pippen's "Iggy-caliber" to stick around and ride the winning spotlight to all-time status (most overrated player of all-time).

Ultimately, people forget that Magic demanded to play with Kareem or sit out the year - people forget that - it matters because it means he didn't win "organically", aka he didn't win via teammate development, chemistry, and strategic development/coaching.. This is common for ball-dominators because ball-dominators impose spot-up roles that stall young players, so they can't develop teammates (win organically) and also can't carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume).

Since ball-dominators can't win organically and can't carry the scoring load, they need all-time scoring help like Kareem, AD, Wade or Kyrie and all-star scorers at 3rd option.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters are the opposite - they can develop teammates (win organically) and carry the scoring load against top teams (sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume), so they can win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Klay, Pippen, Jason Terry, Lowry or Pau.. Since expert jumpshooters can win with less, they're superior to ball-dominators.. The top 10 all-time should be ranked based on who needed the least help to win, so expert jumpshooters should be at the top (MJ, Kobe, Bird, Curry), followed by centers (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq), foillowed by ball-dominators (Magic, Lebron).. This makes sense because Magic and Kareem are only 5.4 in the Finals, so they can't BOTH be top 5 - one or both must fall back and the aforementioned logic does that and puts them in their proper place.. Btw, notice how ball-dominators like Magic/Lebron are losers in the Finals (9-10) - if those 2 guys can't be winners on the championship level, than it's impossible for that brand of ball and skillset (ball-dominators).


Holy shit bro....

[plowking]

Hell yeah he was.

Pip was a less polished Kawhi. Big, strong, able to bring the ball up, lock down defense - best ever from an outside player, and the ability to switch on anyone.

Pip was an MVP candidate at his peak.

[Hey Yo]

Of course he was. That's like asking if 3ball is jealous of LeBron passing MJ.

[Lebron23]

No Pip No Chips

[ImKobe]

Nowhere close. Top 5 is easily MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone & Shaq from '93-'95. He ain't better than guys like Ewing & D-Rob either. He might be arguably the best #2 in this stretch though Drexler's run in '95 was better any any Pippen ring in those years and I'd take Stockton over him as well. Then you get to your Pennys & Grant Hills and I'd rather have those guys in the 96-97 range.

Pip is overrated.

[plowking]

Nowhere close. Top 5 is easily MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone & Shaq from '93-'95. He ain't better than guys like Ewing & D-Rob either. He might be arguably the best #2 in this stretch though Drexler's run in '95 was better any any Pippen ring in those years and I'd take Stockton over him as well. Then you get to your Pennys & Grant Hills and I'd rather have those guys in the 96-97 range.

Pip is overrated.


Pippen had 3 straight years of being All NBA first team. He was leading a team to 55 wins. He was 3rd in MVP voting. He had another top 5 finish. He to this day is the greatest perimeter defender to have played. He was 4th and 7th in two of those seasons in PER.


Yes. Yes he was a top 5 player. Quite comfortably too.

[SATAN]

Pippen had 3 straight years of being All NBA first team. He was leading a team to 55 wins. He was 3rd in MVP voting. He had another top 5 finish. He to this day is the greatest perimeter defender to have played. He was 4th and 7th in two of those seasons in PER.


Yes. Yes he was a top 5 player. Quite comfortably too.

/Thread

[ImKobe]

Pippen had 3 straight years of being All NBA first team. He was leading a team to 55 wins. He was 3rd in MVP voting. He had another top 5 finish. He to this day is the greatest perimeter defender to have played. He was 4th and 7th in two of those seasons in PER.


Yes. Yes he was a top 5 player. Quite comfortably too.

Again, understand what top 5 means

Jordan
Hakeem
Barkley
Malone
Shaq

He was not better than those guys in this span. We're counting the '93 season here right? Because even if we don't, then all Pippen did was lose in the 2nd round and hover around .500 in '95 until MJ came and turned the team back around. There were other guys in the league who had better production & led their team to more success in both RS & POs.

It's fun to make the All-NBA 1st team argument when there was only 1 Center spot, but All-NBA 1st team does not mean top 5, especially in that era.

D-Rob from '93-'95 averaged 27/11/4/2/3 on 58%TS and 28.0 PER, led the league in PER in B2B seasons and led worse Spurs teams to 55 & 62 wins in B2B seasons and at least got them to the WCF
Ewing from '93-'95 led the Knicks to 60, 57 & 55 wins and beat/outplayed Pippen and led a team to the Finals and almost beat Hakeem


You guys are ****ing deluded.

[Micku]

Pippen had 3 straight years of being All NBA first team. He was leading a team to 55 wins. He was 3rd in MVP voting. He had another top 5 finish. He to this day is the greatest perimeter defender to have played. He was 4th and 7th in two of those seasons in PER.


Yes. Yes he was a top 5 player. Quite comfortably too.

I don't know about that.

And just because you made the all nba first team, it doesn't mean you are a better player than someone who made the third team. Case in point, 95. Hakeem was on the third team. Shaq was on the second team. Pippen and David Robinson were on the first team. Hakeem was better than both of them. And Shaq was better than Pippen at that point and could be argued to be better than David Robinson.

And when Pippen was third in mvp, he wasn't the third-best player imo.

You still had Hakeem, Shaq, David Robinson, Barkley, Ewing and Karl Malone in that year.

You could argue that a case for Pippen I think, but I don't know about comfortably. Ewing lead his team to the finals and took a MJ and Pippen to the brink two times.

I think he is arguably top 5 for sure. But idk about it being easily. And it honestly depends on the year. His best year was definitely 94.But I don't think he was top 5 from 93-95. I have to go through the list tho.

[Axe]

Nowhere close. Top 5 is easily MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone & Shaq from '93-'95. He ain't better than guys like Ewing & D-Rob either. He might be arguably the best #2 in this stretch though Drexler's run in '95 was better any any Pippen ring in those years and I'd take Stockton over him as well. Then you get to your Pennys & Grant Hills and I'd rather have those guys in the 96-97 range.

Pip is overrated.
Pippen > Ad

:kobe:

[Micku]

Pippen had 3 straight years of being All NBA first team. He was leading a team to 55 wins. He was 3rd in MVP voting. He had another top 5 finish. He to this day is the greatest perimeter defender to have played. He was 4th and 7th in two of those seasons in PER.


Yes. Yes he was a top 5 player. Quite comfortably too.

And I want to talk about this more. And just because you have more votes as the MVP, it doesn't make you the better player than other ppl. But you did have a good year.

Like when Nash in 06 won mvp, he arguably wasn't even a top 5 player. You had Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Dirk, Tim Duncan, KG. But the case he had for MVP was deserved. He lead that offense and the team was amazing.

When D-Rose won mvp in 2011, was he top 5 player? You had LeBron, Wade, Howard, Dirk, Kobe, Durant. That's tough.

PG-13 in 2019 was top 3 in MVP voting. Ahead of Steph, Kawhi and KD. He got in the first team above KD. He wasn't a top 5 player. He wasn't better than Steph, KD, Kawhi, Giannis, James Harden. He probably wasn't better than Jokic. He wasn't better than LeBron healthy. Arguably wasn't better than Jimmy Butler, but was better than him the RS. Was he better than Dame? He was still elite and had one hell of a season.

But the same can be argued with Pippen. He was elite. But I don't think he's comfortably in the top 5 like that. He has a case, but the other guys had cases too.

[plowking]

And I want to talk about this more. And just because you have more votes as the MVP, it doesn't make you the better player than other ppl. But you did have a good year.



You're taking every point as an individual point. These all happened concurrently.

When he was all NBA first team, he was the best perimeter defender, while being top 5 in PER, while being top 3 in MVP voting, while being all NBA defensive first team, while leading his team to 55 wins.

[3ba11]

You're taking every point as an individual point. These all happened concurrently.

When he was all NBA first team, he was the best perimeter defender, while being top 5 in PER, while being top 3 in MVP voting, while being all NBA defensive first team, while leading his team to 55 wins.


55 wins and #3 for MVP is a garbage peak that compares to Paul George or Blake Griffin pr Marc Gasol..

And they didn't inherit and destroy 3-peat dynasties in 18 months like Pippen did.. Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty like the 95' Bulls (boderline .500 before MJ returned)

Based on stats like PER or win share and based on peak, dominance and overall play - Pippen is borderline top 100

[plowking]

Again, understand what top 5 means

Jordan
Hakeem
Barkley
Malone
Shaq

He was not better than those guys in this span. We're counting the '93 season here right? Because even if we don't, then all Pippen did was lose in the 2nd round and hover around .500 in '95 until MJ came and turned the team back around. There were other guys in the league who had better production & led their team to more success in both RS & POs.


In the 3 seasons Pippen made all NBA first team he put up 21/8/6 with the best defense on the perimeter in the league.

Barkley put up 23/11/4... You want to compare their defensive side now?
Malone put up 26/11/4... Again, shall we compare defense?

This isn't some massive gap that you make it out to be.

[plowking]

55 wins and #3 for MVP is a garbage peak that compares to Paul George or Blake Griffin pr Marc Gasol..

Garbage peak that had him in the all NBA first team 3 straight years - and by your very metrics below using PER as a top 4-7 player in the league.


And they didn't inherit and destroy 3-peat dynasties in 18 months like Pippen did.. Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty like the 95' Bulls (boderline .500 before MJ returned)


Thanks for pointing this out. He did that 55 wins and had the success he did on the back of a team not built for/around him. We never really got an extended look into what Scottie could do because MJ needed and wanted him as his sidekick.
Ultimately - MJ was playing next to a top 5 player, 55 win team already - and then they added Rodman on top of that. Crazy.



Based on stats like PER or win share and based on peak, dominance and overall play - Pippen is borderline top 100

His peak based on the players he played against puts him at 4-7 using just your stats.

[3ba11]

In the 3 seasons Pippen made all NBA first team he put up 21/8/6 with the best defense on the perimeter in the league.

Barkley put up 23/11/4... You want to compare their defensive side now?
Malone put up 26/11/4... Again, shall we compare defense?

This isn't some massive gap that you make it out to be.


Pippen was always considered FAR BELOW barkley and malone

not even close

that's how he was viewed in the 90's - nowhere near these guys

Show me a promo for the 93' or 97' Finals that says something like "a big forward matchup between Pippen and Barkley or Pippen and Malone"

It never happened because no one thought FOR A NANOSECOND that Pippen was on their level

people knew that Pippen was riding the winning spotlight to accolade and that he couldn't really score or shoot without the system to carry him - and even with the system he wasn't a very good scorer with bad efficiency and low peak capability and worst-ever clutch - literally non-existent down the stretch of every game and the clutch stats show that.. everyone knew this in the 90's that Pippen was completely carried to every title - the stats show this clearly - he never had to dominate or take over to win a title - he could just get 18 ppg with bad efficiency and ride MJ's dominance - everyone knew this in the 90's.

[3ba11]

.

His peak based on the players he played against puts him at 4-7 using just your stats.\





Pippen's peak PER or PPG is about 22 - that's horrific and close to Larry Hughes' peak

Pippen's career PER is about 120th all-time... Ditto WS/48

So based on peak or career stats, Pippen ranks about 120th all-time

Imagine Iggy being ranked top 30 all-time due to a 6-chip ring count and association with the GOAT - that's pippen

[plowking]

Pippen's peak PER or PPG is about 22 - that's horrific and close to Larry Hughes' peak

Pippen's career PER is about 120th all-time... Ditto WS/48

So based on peak or career stats, Pippen ranks about 120th all-time

PER is in comparison to those you played against as its derived comparatively. Hence top 4-7 player peak at his prime.
What was Larry Hughes? Don't even know why he is mentioned.

So in a league full of Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, D-Rob and Shaq - Pippen was finishing 4th to 7th in PER during his peak. Nice company.

[3ba11]

PER is in comparison to those you played against as its derived comparatively. Hence top 4-7 player peak at his prime.
What was Larry Hughes? Don't even know why he is mentioned.

So in a league full of Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, D-Rob and Shaq - Pippen was finishing 4th to 7th in PER during his peak. Nice company.


2005 Larry Hughes averaged 22/5/5 with 1st team defense and 22 PER

that's prime Pippen - Pippen never did materially better than that

Pippen was never a dominant producer with heavy burden like Barkley or Malone - he was a secondary or tertiary producer that never played above a prime Iggy-caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to top 30 all-time

[1987_Lakers]

PER is in comparison to those you played against as its derived comparatively. Hence top 4-7 player peak at his prime.
What was Larry Hughes? Don't even know why he is mentioned.

So in a league full of Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, D-Rob and Shaq - Pippen was finishing 4th to 7th in PER during his peak. Nice company.

PER doesn't even take into account defense.

[Micku]

You're taking every point as an individual point. These all happened concurrently.

When he was all NBA first team, he was the best perimeter defender, while being top 5 in PER, while being top 3 in MVP voting, while being all NBA defensive first team, while leading his team to 55 wins.

It was really similar to PG-13 in 2019 imo.

PG-13 was all nba first team. The best perimeter defender. Top 3 in DPOY. First team in all defense. While top 3 in MVP voting. Leading his team to 49 wins, but the West were competitive. He wasn't top 5 in PER. Top 20, but he was better than guys like Whiteside and Trez that were ahead of him. He was 2nd in scoring that year. Without a doubt the best perimeter two way player in the regular season. But he still wasn't top 5 by a long shot.

Same thing with Pippen in 94 imo. He wasn't better than Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson. But was he better than Ewing, Malone or Barkley? It's arguable. But I wouldn't say without a doubt he is top 5. But that's just 94.

In 93, he wasn't. And in 95 he wasn't.

[plowking]

2005 Larry Hughes averaged 22/5/5 with 1st team defense and 22 PER

That's cool and all - but we are talking about Pippen. Not players who weren't even top 20 in PER that season.
We're talking about top 5 type PER guys who actually made all NBA first team.


that's prime Pippen - Pippen never did materially better than that

Facts say he did significantly better.


Pippen was never a dominant producer with heavy burden like Barkley or Malone - he was a secondary or tertiary producer that never played above a prime Iggy-caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to top 30 all-time

Andre Igoudala. Again... Interesting choice. Never top 5 PER wise, and no all NBA teams. Never top 3 in MVP voting.

[3ba11]

PER is in comparison to those you played against as its derived comparatively. Hence top 4-7 player peak at his prime.
What was Larry Hughes? Don't even know why he is mentioned.

So in a league full of Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, D-Rob and Shaq - Pippen was finishing 4th to 7th in PER during his peak. Nice company.


Malone and Barkley peaked at 29 PER, while Pippen peaked at 23, which is a top 200 peak

Larry Hughes had a similar peak PER

So Pippen had a garbage peak capability, which is why Shaq said that Pippen wasn't on the scouting report - there's no need to scout for a guy that can't get more than 22 ppg on bad efficiency and bricklaying with zero clutch - system player - no need to put on scouting report - he's just an athlete, dunker and defender - never a go-to player..

any team with pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty

[HoopologyPhD]

The real question is how good would the 90's Jazz be with Pippen?

[3ba11]

.
PLAYOFFS


09' Iguodala vs Dwight.... 21.5... 6.3... 6.7... 44.9%... lost in 6 (no kukoc miracle)

94' Pippen vs Ewing......... 21.7... 7.7... 4.7... 40.5%... lost in 7 (kukoc miracle)



I

But was he better than Ewing, Malone or Barkley? It's arguable.





It isn't arguable

Pippen was never ANYWHERE NEAR barkley or malone - you obviously never watched in the 90's

Pippen was literally like Andre Igoudala - would you say that Iggy was on Barkley's level?.. It's crazy..

Pippen's legacy is simply boosted by 6 rings, but show me a single series where he played materially above a peak-Iggy caliber (20 ppg and 5-6 apg give or take) - show me where he played above this level?.. he NEVER did - so when you think of Pippen, you should think of an Iggy-caliber player that was inflated by the winning spotlight of 6 chips

it's a fact that outside the system (triangle), Pippen was worse than prime Jeff Green (14 on 40% in 1999 and 1989)

[3ba11]

.
Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat



Playoffs

14' WADE...... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' PIPPEN.... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions

14' WADE...'.. 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' PIPPEN.... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg


So playing less than 14' Wade is top 5?.... :biggums:

In the playoffs, 93' Pippen had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick (PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM, TS, ORTG)

[3ba11]

.
Top 150 PER and low peak capability system player =



https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

Speaking of Shaq

https://www.marca.com/en/basketball/nba/los-angeles-lakers/2023/02/08/63e341aa268e3e313a8b45f8.html

[ImKobe]

In the 3 seasons Pippen made all NBA first team he put up 21/8/6 with the best defense on the perimeter in the league.

Barkley put up 23/11/4... You want to compare their defensive side now?
Malone put up 26/11/4... Again, shall we compare defense?

This isn't some massive gap that you make it out to be.

Want to include the efficiency numbers, tough guy?

Barkley & Malone led teams to the Finals. Pippen 2nd round and later on choked on stacked teams post-MJ. Pip apparently was already better than Chuck in the mid-90s but was 2nd option next to him when they teamed up in '99 LMAO. Stop with this nonsense man.

Pippen from '93-'95 averaged 21/8/6 on 48.1%FG/53.8%TS

Barkley averaged 24/12/5 (nice job rounding down his numbers you clown) on 50.2%FG/57.9%TS. He led the Suns to 62 wins with KJ missing half the season in '93 & won MVP and led his team to the Finals and gave the Bulls arguably their toughest Finals in the entire MJ era. He also outplayed Pippen by a country mile in the Finals which you also obviously wouldn't want to mention in this case. Pippen in the '93 Finals averaged 21.2 ppg 9.2 rpg 7.7 apg 4.3 TOV on 43.9%FG 54.3%FT/45.9%TS (lmao) to Barkley's 27.3 ppg 13.0 rpg 5.5 apg 47.6%FG/54.4%TS.


Malone from '93 to '95 averaged 26/11/4 on 52.8%FG/58.4%TS and also outplayed Pippen in both the '97 & '98 Finals.

Nice try though. You Bran dickriders are something else. You think that Pippen was on the level of guys who were actual league MVPs and who led teams to 60+ wins & Finals as the #1 options and who peaked way higher? Cmon.

There's no ****ing way he was on their level. Karl Malone was still putting up prime Pippen numbers at age 39. You're not convincing anyone.

[3ba11]

Speaking of Shaq

https://www.marca.com/en/basketball/nba/los-angeles-lakers/2023/02/08/63e341aa268e3e313a8b45f8.html


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-23-2023/UTpe-0.gif


Shaq always said MJ was GOAT

But the GOAT debate is opinion anyway, whereas Shaq had intimate knowledge of whether Pippen was on the scouting report - so it's objective fact that Pippen wasn't on the scouting report - this speaks to Pippen's low peak capability of 20 points via the system and just an athletic dunker/hustler with bad efficiency and zero clutch

[SouBeachTalents]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-23-2023/UTpe-0.gif


Shaq always said MJ was GOAT

But the GOAT debate is opinion anyway, whereas Shaq had intimate knowledge of whether Pippen was on the scouting report - so it's objective fact that Pippen wasn't on the scouting report - this speaks to Pippen's low peak capability of 20 points via the system and just an athletic dunker/hustler with bad efficiency and zero clutch
Yeah bro, a top 10 player in the league wasn't even on the scouting report. Shaq has never been known to lie or exaggerate for effect. What he says can always be taken literally.

[Micku]

.
PLAYOFFS


09' Iguodala vs Dwight.... 21.5... 6.3... 6.7... 44.9%... lost in 6 (no kukoc miracle)

94' Pippen vs Ewing......... 21.7... 7.7... 4.7... 40.5%... lost in 7 (kukoc miracle)





It isn't arguable

Pippen was never ANYWHERE NEAR barkley or malone - you obviously never watched in the 90's

Pippen was literally like Andre Igoudala - would you say that Iggy was on Barkley's level?.. It's crazy..

Pippen's legacy is simply boosted by 6 rings, but show me a single series where he played materially above a peak-Iggy caliber (20 ppg and 5-6 apg give or take) - show me where he played above this level?.. he NEVER did - so when you think of Pippen, you should think of an Iggy-caliber player that was inflated by the winning spotlight of 6 chips

it's a fact that outside the system (triangle), Pippen was worse than prime Jeff Green (14 on 40% in 1999 and 1989)

I don't think it's wise to compare across eras like that. The defense isn't the same, the rules aren't the same, offensive tactics, and they didn't even face the same teams. It's better to do stats respect to their eras. But Pippen still had worse efficiency I think.

And another thing, Barkley stepped it up in the playoffs with the volume in 94. Pippen was less efficient on similar stats as he did in the RS. But the impact is the biggest factor. I do think Barkley had a superior impact, but some ppl think Pippen did. I think Ewing had more impact than Pippen due to him leading his team to the finals and going against MJ and Pippen both. I can see an argument being on the same tier as Ewing, and he might be, but I don't think Pippen was better than him that year.

I don't think Pippen was clearly top 5 in the league in 94. It was a great showing tho after MJ. The Bulls didn't suck.

[3ba11]

I don't think it's wise to compare across eras like that. The defense isn't the same, the rules aren't the same, offensive tactics, and they didn't even face the same teams. It's better to do stats respect to their eras. But Pippen still had worse efficiency I think.

And another thing, Barkley stepped it up in the playoffs with the volume in 94. Pippen was less efficient on similar stats as he did in the RS. But the impact is the biggest factor. I do think Barkley had a superior impact, but some ppl think Pippen did. I think Ewing had more impact than Pippen due to him leading his team to the finals and going against MJ and Pippen both. I can see an argument being on the same tier as Ewing, and he might be, but I don't think Pippen was better than him that year.

I don't think Pippen was clearly top 5 in the league in 94. It was a great showing tho after MJ. The Bulls didn't suck.


In the 90's, if someone said that Pippen was equal to Ewing or other top 1st options, you would've been laughed out of the room

Pippen was viewed as an Iggy-caliber player that was riding the winning spotlight to accolade - that WAS his perception in the 90's because he never dominated and was carried in every series.

For example, I was completely shocked the first time that I looked on bballref and saw that Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals because I watched that series and was unaware - everyone was unaware because Pippen's performance wasn't tracked - no one paid attention to whether Pippen got 15 on 34% or whether he got 20 on 45% because it was always a low peak (never dominant) and a small fraction of what jordan got... So no one paid attention to Pippen - it was all about Jordan and Pippen just got the benefit of the doubt due to ring count and consistent winning spotlight... Pippen's many bed-wettings go unnoticed and ignored but in today's social media climate, his bed-wettings would relegate him to the low status that he deserves as a Jared Vanderbilt type with slightly better scoring

[Lebron23]

.
PLAYOFFS


09' Iguodala vs Dwight.... 21.5... 6.3... 6.7... 44.9%... lost in 6 (no kukoc miracle)

94' Pippen vs Ewing......... 21.7... 7.7... 4.7... 40.5%... lost in 7 (kukoc miracle)





It isn't arguable

Pippen was never ANYWHERE NEAR barkley or malone - you obviously never watched in the 90's

Pippen was literally like Andre Igoudala - would you say that Iggy was on Barkley's level?.. It's crazy..

Pippen's legacy is simply boosted by 6 rings, but show me a single series where he played materially above a peak-Iggy caliber (20 ppg and 5-6 apg give or take) - show me where he played above this level?.. he NEVER did - so when you think of Pippen, you should think of an Iggy-caliber player that was inflated by the winning spotlight of 6 chips

it's a fact that outside the system (triangle), Pippen was worse than prime Jeff Green (14 on 40% in 1999 and 1989)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

[BigShotBob]

Penny was better than Pippen in 94-95

[SouBeachTalents]

Penny was better than Pippen in 94-95
In 1994, when he was a rookie? Absolutely not :oldlol: If you meant just '95, disregard.

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-20-2021/7_4XkA.gif


At his peak, Pippen struggled to get 20 ppg with weak efficiency in a system and only 14 ppg outside the system, while Barkley averaged 25-30 as a standard - Barkley was an all-time 1st option, while Pippen was a 3rd to 7th option (he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ and otherwise anyone decent made him 3rd to 7th option).

[Micku]

In the 90's, if someone said that Pippen was equal to Ewing or other top 1st options, you would've been laughed out of the room

Pippen was viewed as an Iggy-caliber player that was riding the winning spotlight to accolade - that WAS his perception in the 90's because he never dominated and was carried in every series.

For example, I was completely shocked the first time that I looked on bballref and saw that Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals because I watched that series and was unaware - everyone was unaware because Pippen's performance wasn't tracked - no one paid attention to whether Pippen got 15 on 34% or whether he got 20 on 45% because it was always a low peak (never dominant) and a small fraction of what jordan got... So no one paid attention to Pippen - it was all about Jordan and Pippen just got the benefit of the doubt due to ring count and consistent winning spotlight... Pippen's many bed-wettings go unnoticed and ignored but in today's social media climate, his bed-wettings would relegate him to the low status that he deserves as a Jared Vanderbilt type with slightly better scoring

Hahaha! I think Pippen is one of those guys that do get revisionist history in terms of how good he was. Pippen was good, but not like Ewing good at least from ppl at the time. But it happens and I could see some arguments being made, especially in hindsight. I still feel like Pippen top ten for sure and the best at his position, depending on the year. I think Ewing gets underrated tbh. I think if MJ were teammates with Ewing, I feel like ppl would call him a much better center than what he was. I don't think Pippen was better than Ewing at all during the 1st peat and I don't think he was better than him in 94 either, but that's imo. Ppl can argue that his stats don't represent in how good he was, and I could see that. Top 5 is pushing it to me, but there are ppl who would argue it.

It was like this in the 00s too that ppl either overrate Pippen or underrate Pippen on the forums. He was just one of those types of players.

[3ba11]

Hahaha! I think Pippen is one of those guys that do get revisionist history in terms of how good he was. Pippen was good, but not like Ewing good at least from ppl at the time. But it happens and I could see some arguments being made, especially in hindsight. I still feel like Pippen top ten for sure and the best at his position, depending on the year. I think Ewing gets underrated tbh. I think if MJ were teammates with Ewing, I feel like ppl would call him a much better center than what he was. I don't think Pippen was better than Ewing at all during the 1st peat and I don't think he was better than him in 94 either, but that's imo. Ppl can argue that his stats don't represent in how good he was, and I could see that. Top 5 is pushing it to me, but there are ppl who would argue it.

It was like this in the 00s too that ppl either overrate Pippen or underrate Pippen on the forums. He was just one of those types of players.


Ewing was a dominant 1st option that carried a 15-year organic team (2 Finals trips and 5 other series vs MJ), whereas any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent - this includes a 3-peat dynasty like the 95' Bulls, so any idea that Pippen's 1-time run after inheriting a 3-peat dynasty compares to Ewing carrying a 15-year organic team is absurd.. Pippen was never a franchise player or cornerstone, while Ewing, Barkley, Malone, and others were - it's a completely different level - it's like comparing Iggy or Klay to Embiid or something.

Pippen was a low-producing, lane-clogger that happened to be there when MJ entered his prime and MJ's goat ability to never lose once he got a single all-star allowed Pippen's "Iggy-caliber" to stick around and ride the winning spotlight to all-time status (most overrated player of all-time, aka imagine Iggy being rated top 30 due to winning 6 chips alongside the goat).

[Hey Yo]

No Pip, no chips

No Phil, no thrills

[3ba11]

No Pip, no chips

No Phil, no thrills


It could've been anyone - MJ just needed 1 all-star for 6 chips, while Lebron went 2/4 with Wade/Bosh or 1/3 with Love/Kyrie or 1/4 with rich man's Pippen (AD) - so we know that Lebron is a 1/4 or 2/4 guy and nowhere a dynasty, 3-peat or 6 chips with any lineup, aka objectively inferior to MJ (vastly)

[red1]

lebron is the GOAT



agreed :applause:

[Hey Yo]

It could've been anyone - MJ just needed 1 all-star for 6 chips, while Lebron went 2/4 with Wade/Bosh or 1/3 with Love/Kyrie or 1/4 with rich man's Pippen (AD) - so we know that Lebron is a 1/4 or 2/4 guy and nowhere a dynasty, 3-peat or 6 chips with any lineup, aka objectively inferior to MJ (vastly)

MJ needed Pip's All-NBA and All-defensive in order to win 2 of the first 3.

MJ needed to take 22mos. off to win the next 3 which are widely considered as the *3

4 >>>>>>> 3

[Soundwave]

I mean if you want to talk seasons I honestly don't think he was top 5 in any of these three seasons. He was probably 6th (right at the cut off) in 93-94.

92-93 - Not even close (28th in the league for scoring)

Jordan
Barkley
Hakeem
Malone
Ewing


93-94: Close but I still have these five guys above him

Hakeem
DRob
Shaq
Karl Malone
Ewing

94-95: No way

Hakeem
Shaq
DRob
Malone
Barkley

People don't really give Karl Malone, David Robinson, and Ewing their due. Ewing beat Pippen, outplayed him in that series head to head, and took the Knicks to the NBA Finals, but Pippen is better in 1994? lol. Does that logic hold for any other star player?

[Micku]

I mean if you want to talk seasons I honestly don't think he was top 5 in any of these three seasons. He was probably 6th (right at the cut off) in 93-94.

92-93 - Not even close (28th in the league for scoring)

Jordan
Barkley
Hakeem
Malone
Ewing


93-94: Close but I still have these five guys above him

Hakeem
DRob
Shaq
Karl Malone
Ewing

94-95: No way

Hakeem
Shaq
DRob
Malone
Barkley

People don't really give Karl Malone, David Robinson, and Ewing their due. Ewing beat Pippen, outplayed him in that series head to head, and took the Knicks to the NBA Finals, but Pippen is better in 1994? lol. Does that logic hold for any other star player?

I feel like as time goes on, Ewing gets overlooked a lot. He gave the Bulls with MJ their toughest series during the first peat. He was part of the defensive anchor of the Knicks and their culture.

And as you said, I feel like the closest Pippen has ever been to top 5 was 94 to me. And imo, I don't think he was better than Ewing.

[Keno]

1-9 is enough proof for this debate

[plowking]

Want to include the efficiency numbers, tough guy?

I guess I'm pretty tough. What you bench?


Barkley & Malone led teams to the Finals. Pippen 2nd round and later on choked on stacked teams post-MJ. Pip apparently was already better than Chuck in the mid-90s but was 2nd option next to him when they teamed up in '99 LMAO. Stop with this nonsense man.


Pip was 1st team every year and went to the finals too in some of those years too... 99 is 3 years removed from that. Charles averaged what? A whole point and a bit more than Scottie? End of day, Scottie was taking more shots - hence he was the second option.


Pippen from '93-'95 averaged 21/8/6 on 48.1%FG/53.8%TS


All time great defense too.


Barkley averaged 24/12/5 (nice job rounding down his numbers you clown) on 50.2%FG/57.9%TS.

I didn't round his numbers down. I said in the 3 seasons Scottie was All NBA first team and compared their numbers there... He put up 22.6/11.3/4.1. If anything - rounding helped Barkley here and made the gap seem bigger lol. Thanks for pointing that out. There wasn't even a whole 2 points difference in scoring, but rather 1.7ppg.
Scottie also played significantly more games. Being even more valuable. Can't be good if you aren't on the court.



He led the Suns to 62 wins with KJ missing half the season in '93 & won MVP and led his team to the Finals and gave the Bulls arguably their toughest Finals in the entire MJ era. He also outplayed Pippen by a country mile in the Finals which you also obviously wouldn't want to mention in this case. Pippen in the '93 Finals averaged 21.2 ppg 9.2 rpg 7.7 apg 4.3 TOV on 43.9%FG 54.3%FT/45.9%TS (lmao) to Barkley's 27.3 ppg 13.0 rpg 5.5 apg 47.6%FG/54.4%TS.

Sweet - in the year Pip was going to the 1st team All NBA, Barkley didn't do that.
Scottie also outplayed Barkley in 3 of those finals games - while Barkley outplayed Pip in 3 - just as an FYI.



Malone from '93 to '95 averaged 26/11/4 on 52.8%FG/58.4%TS and also outplayed Pippen in both the '97 & '98 Finals.

Yes - Malone continued as a first option, while Pippen was now a second option in 97 and 98. Scottie sacrificed stats and glory to stay on a competitive team and win championships. You're the same type of person that'll change their narrative and tell us Chris Bosh was a top 5 player in the league yet ignore his putrid stats on the Heat. Also ignore the fact he never made more than one All NBA team, never came close to an MVP, never came close to an All defensive team and simply put up pretty stats.


Nice try though. You Bran dickriders are something else. You think that Pippen was on the level of guys who were actual league MVPs and who led teams to 60+ wins & Finals as the #1 options and who peaked way higher? Cmon.

Is that honestly the best you can do? Lose an argument then resort to "xxxxx dickrider". I'm in the Denver and Lakers gamethread consistently rooting for the Nuggets. Kinda like you were - but you because you're sad and still take the time to hate a player. :oldlol:


There's no ****ing way he was on their level. Karl Malone was still putting up prime Pippen numbers at age 39. You're not convincing anyone.

I don't need to convince anyone. When Pippen had his own team - he factually, with stats and analytics was a top 5 guy in the league. He also led them to 55 wins - which would have been good for 1st seed in the West this year.
That 55 wins was more than Malone and Stockton achieved together that season.
1 win off the Suns.
That was all while MJ was taken off their team - should have been a far bigger impact - no?

Scottie in his first season alone - with no time to adapt in the 1st option role manages to take them to 55 wins.

[3ba11]

Scottie also outplayed Barkley in 3 of those finals games - while Barkley outplayed Pip in 3 - just as an FYI.





Barkley, Malone and Ewing were dominant 1st options that carried a teams to contention for 15 years, whereas Pippen could never be 1st option for any period of time without the team falling out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent - this includes a 3-peat dynasty like the 95' Bulls, so any idea that Pippen's 1-time run after inheriting a 3-peat dynasty compares to Ewing carrying a 15-year organic team is absurd..

Pippen was never a franchise player or cornerstone, while Ewing, Barkley, Malone, and others were - it's a completely different level - it's like comparing Iggy or Klay to Embiid or something.

Pippen was a low-producing, lane-clogger that happened to be there when MJ entered his prime and MJ's goat ability to never lose once he got a single all-star allowed Pippen's "Iggy-caliber" to stick around and ride the winning spotlight to all-time status (most overrated player of all-time).. aka imagine Iggy being rated top 30 due to winning 6 chips alongside the goat

[Phoenix]

It should also be noted that Pippen missed 10 games and Horace 12 in '94. That probably cost them at minimum a half dozen wins off their total.

[theman93]

1994 was the closest he came. 1993 and 1995 not even close.

[3ba11]

.
Clutch Points (last 5 within 5) for 2016 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2022/-5mtpL.gif

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=TotalsMode=Totals



Clutch Points for 1994 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif



The Heat were injured in 15' but nearly made 16' ECF just like 94' Bulls without MJ:


Playoffs

16' FOSSIL WADE..... 22.3 PER.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PRIME PIPPEN.... 22.8 PER.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%


^^™ the difference is that Wade was building the Heat like a real 1st option does, while Pippen drove the Bulls downward and was borderline lottery in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat caliber

[plowking]

.
Clutch Points (last 5 within 5) for 2016 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2022/-5mtpL.gif

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=TotalsMode=Totals



Clutch Points for 1994 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif



The Heat were injured in 15' but nearly made 16' ECF just like 94' Bulls without MJ:


Playoffs

16' FOSSIL WADE..... 22.3 PER.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PRIME PIPPEN.... 22.8 PER.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%


^^™ the difference is that Wade was building the Heat like a real 1st option does, while Pippen drove the Bulls downward and was borderline lottery in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat caliber


Dwyane Wade never led the Heat to 55 wins as a first option. Scottie did.
Scottie also made more 1st team ALL NBA selections than Wade.

Just interesting food for thought type stuff.

[3ba11]

Dwyane Wade never led the Heat to 55 wins as a first option. Scottie did.
Scottie also made more 1st team ALL NBA selections than Wade.

Just interesting food for thought type stuff.


Wade was a cornerstone like Luka or KD that you could build a champion around, while Pippen was a supplementary player like Klay or Iggy - night and day

Even when Wade was a fossil in 2016, he still nearly made the ECF with the pile of ashes that Lebron left him, while peak Pippen had a 3-peat dynasty but was a massive choker compared to Wade (3 points on 20% in the 4th quarter for peak-Pippen, while fossil-Wade was the clutch leader in the 2016 2nd Round along with Curry).

Essentially, you guys were mad at Wade in 2013 and 2014 because he'd fallen to prime Pippen level (21/5/5 and 21 PER).. That was Pippen's caliber... The 55 wins was because he inherited a prime 3-peat dynasty and added Kukoc - but again, any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty, and that's what happened in 95' before MJ returned.. Pippen couldn't grow a team like a real 1st option is supposed to, while Wade was building the Heat back up after Lebron left him a record-losing team (not a 3-peat dynasty).

[plowking]

Essentially, you guys were mad at Wade in 2013 and 2014 because he'd fallen to prime Pippen level (21/5/5 and 21 PER).. That was Pippen's caliber... The 55 wins was because he inherited a prime 3-peat dynasty and added Kukoc - but again, any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty, and that's what happened in 95' before MJ returned.. Pippen couldn't grow a team like a real 1st option is supposed to, while Wade was building the Heat back up after Lebron left him a record-losing team (not a 3-peat dynasty).


Wade put up 18/5/4 with average defense post the 2011 playoffs run in the playoffs.

Scottie in the first Bulls 3 peat put up 20/8/6 with all time great defense.
He put up 18/7/5 in the second 3 peat.

He was significantly better than Wade as a second option - predominantly due to the fact that he was a massive plus on defense - and guarded the best player on the other team. Meanwhile - LeBron was doing that on the Heat.

[warriorfan]

God damn. This thread is a complete slaughter. :applause:



Wade put up 18/5/4 with average defense post the 2011 playoffs run in the playoffs.

Scottie in the first Bulls 3 peat put up 20/8/6 with all time great defense.
He put up 18/7/5 in the second 3 peat.

He was significantly better than Wade as a second option - predominantly due to the fact that he was a massive plus on defense - and guarded the best player on the other team. Meanwhile - LeBron was doing that on the Heat.

team scottie with lebron and see what happens

he would better start working on his corner 3

[plowking]

God damn. This thread is a complete slaughter. :applause:




team scottie with lebron and see what happens

he would better start working on his corner 3

LeBron is great and all - but his style of play comes with a lot of caveats. Is it successful? Clearly.

Only reason I like the guy is because he played on the Heat during my peak team fandom years. I've never really been a fan of his style per se. I honestly don't care who the better player out of Mike and Bron is.

But Scottie getting disrespected is ridiculous.

[3ba11]

Wade put up 18/5/4 with average defense post the 2011 playoffs run in the playoffs.

Scottie in the first Bulls 3 peat put up 20/8/6 with all time great defense.
He put up 18/7/5 in the second 3 peat.

He was significantly better than Wade as a second option - predominantly due to the fact that he was a massive plus on defense - and guarded the best player on the other team. Meanwhile - LeBron was doing that on the Heat.


Anyone can cherry-pick Pippen's best years and match them with Wade's worst or some other player's worst to make Pippen look like he wasn't that bad.

That's what you did..

In the 96' and 98' Playoffs, Pippen averaged 16.8 with the worst efficiency that anyone ever had for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG - this included 15.7 on 40% in both Finals - Wade simply never played that badly on any playoff run alongside Lebron.. Wade averaged 20 on 47% in the 2013 Finals compared to 16 on 34% for Pippen's worst chip in 96'.

You could argue that Wade's 2014 Playoffs were as bad as Pippen's 96-98' Playoffs, but Wade averaged 20/5/5 on 47% in the ECF, while Lebron was an equal-scoring partner - this is great help compared to Pippen's 16 on 39% for the 98' or 97' ECF, while MJ doubled this.

The proper thing to do is match Wade's best years alongside Lebron (11' and 12') to Pippen's best (91' or 92') and then match Wade's worst years (13' and 14') to Pippen's worst (93' or 96-98').. When it's done this way we see that Wade was far superior, but we already knew this because Wade was a cornerstone like Luka or KD, while Pippen was always a supplementary player like Klay or Iggy - night and day

Pippen was never a true "2nd option" - he wasn't a go-to player like Wade - Pippen was a hustler/defender and system player that wasn't available in the 2nd half of playoff games or 4th quarters - so that's night and day with Wade

[Micku]

Wade put up 18/5/4 with average defense post the 2011 playoffs run in the playoffs.

Scottie in the first Bulls 3 peat put up 20/8/6 with all time great defense.
He put up 18/7/5 in the second 3 peat.

He was significantly better than Wade as a second option - predominantly due to the fact that he was a massive plus on defense - and guarded the best player on the other team. Meanwhile - LeBron was doing that on the Heat.

Yeah, Wade was hurt during the POs every year post 2011. But he also regressed more and more. I feel like Pippen was a better second option too due to his everything he brought to the table. Pippen was hurt in 96 too. But it's a year by year basis. Wade 2012 was great despite playing with one knee in the POs. Wade in 2013 when healthy was amazing, but not in the POs. 2014, Wade was a shell of his former shell.

[Micku]

LeBron is great and all - but his style of play comes with a lot of caveats. Is it successful? Clearly.

Only reason I like the guy is because he played on the Heat during my peak team fandom years. I've never really been a fan of his style per se. I honestly don't care who the better player out of Mike and Bron is.

But Scottie getting disrespected is ridiculous.

You aren't as hyped for this Heat team?

The Heat were always underdogs except when LeBron was there. But before that, I felt like Wade was underrated. Even during the 05 and 06 Heat teams, I felt they were the underdogs.

[plowking]

Anyone can cherry-pick Pippen's best years and match them with Wade's worst or some other player's worst to make Pippen look like he wasn't that bad.

You're the one trying to do that. Not me. The question is around Pippen in those years. I'm staying consistent and only talked about those years that reference when he was All NBA first team. You're also the one that brought in Wade for whatever reason.

You are the one with an underlying agenda to every discussion. Not me. Pippen factually in those years hovered at the top 5 level - as displayed via All NBA selections, all Defense selections, his MVP standing, and PER signifying so. That is a significant amount of confluence to draw a conclusion to the question posed. You on the other hand start talking about Larry Hughes and all kinds of other shit - which I indulged in briefly.


That's what you did..

Only because you changed the confines of the original question. If you want to go tit for tat, and compared what you are actually trying to do, which is supporting casts of MJ vs LeBron, because you're deluded and can't stick to a basketball convo without any hidden agenda, then as second options - Pippen was clearly better than Wade. We don't need any other seasons aside from the ones they were second options. Pippen>Wade as a second option.


In the 96' and 98' Playoffs, Pippen averaged 16.8 with the worst efficiency that anyone ever had for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG - this included 15.7 on 40% in both Finals - Wade simply never played that badly on any playoff run alongside Lebron.. Wade averaged 20 on 47% in the 2013 Finals compared to 16 on 34% for Pippen's worst chip in 96'.

Yet he still put up better raw stats than Wade, and his PER was higher in that "shocking" 96 playoffs compared to Wade's last two with Bron. Again - all this with PER having very little adjustment for defense. Which Pippen blew Wade away on, especially those late playoff runs as the Heat trio.


You could argue that Wade's 2014 Playoffs were as bad as Pippen's 96-98' Playoffs, but Wade averaged 20/5/5 on 47% in the ECF, while Lebron was an equal-scoring partner - this is great help compared to Pippen's 16 on 39% for the 98' or 97' ECF, while MJ doubled this.


You don't have to argue it. Pip's raw numbers even in the second 3 peat are better, with significantly better defense. Aside from PER over the 3 seasons for both - Pip blows Wade out of the water in all the other advanced metrics include BPM, WS, WS per 48, etc. Everything points to Pip>Wade as a second option.



The proper thing to do is match Wade's best years alongside Lebron (11' and 12') to Pippen's best (91' or 92') and then match Wade's worst years (13' and 14') to Pippen's worst (93' or 96-98').. When it's done this way we see that Wade was far superior, but we already knew this because Wade was a cornerstone like Luka or KD, while Pippen was always a supplementary player like Klay or Iggy - night and day

Wade at his best was a better player than Pippen. The thing is - LeBron had that Wade for one season, and they f*cked up hard against the Mavs. After that, Bron was leading the team, and Wade was clearly a worse second option than Pippen.


Pippen was never a true "2nd option" - he wasn't a go-to player like Wade - Pippen was a hustler/defender and system player that wasn't available in the 2nd half of playoff games or 4th quarters - so that's night and day with Wade

He was. He won 6 rings as a second option.
He was a 20ppg scorer, great rebounder, best passer on the team, best defender, and an All NBA first teamer. All as a second option.

Stop changing the narrative anyway. Pip was top 4-7 in PER during those years. All NBA first team 3 years running. Sounds very top 5ish, or arguable at the very least.

[plowking]

You aren't as hyped for this Heat team?

The Heat were always underdogs except when LeBron was there. But before that, I felt like Wade was underrated. Even during the 05 and 06 Heat teams, I felt they were the underdogs.

I watch now more for great players. I don't really have any allegiance to teams. I only do for EPL (Soccer). Don't really care for basketball too much.

TBH - I don't care who wins, but I think I'd rather Jokic win this one.

[3ba11]

Yeah, Wade was hurt during the POs every year post 2011. But he also regressed more and more. I feel like Pippen was a better second option too due to his everything he brought to the table. Pippen was hurt in 96 too. But it's a year by year basis. Wade 2012 was great despite playing with one knee in the POs. Wade in 2013 when healthy was amazing, but not in the POs. 2014, Wade was a shell of his former shell.



Wade's 2013 and 2014 Playoffs vs. Pippen's 96-98

Pippen...... 17.6 on 41%... woat clutch stats
Wade........ 16.8 on 48%... good clutch stats


^^^ So even when we look at the most favorable comparison, Wade is still the superior scorer and the small gap in PPG is explained by Wade sharing the scoring load with a Big 3 of all-star scorers, while Pippen didn't have to share burden with a 3rd option.




Wade's 2012-2014 Playoffs vs Pippen's 96-98'

Wade...... 18.9 on 47%
Pippen..... 17.6 on 41%


Modern fans don't realize that Pippen wasn't a 2nd option - he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ - if he was on the Blazers, he would've been 3rd or 4th option behind Drexler and Porter, while Duckworth or Buck Williams would've been ahead of Pippen on many nights.

If he was on the Suns, he would've been 5th option behind Barkley, KJ, Dumas, and Ceballos

If he was on the Sonics, he would've been 4th option behind Payton, Kemp and Schrempf

If he was on the Lakers, he would've been 5th option behind Magic, Worthy, Divac and Perkins, or maybe 4th option

It took almost nothing to supplant Pippen from the 2nd option role - Kukoc frequently did so like the 96' or 98' finals

[WhiteKyrie]

MVP Voting

1992 - 9th
1994 - 3rd
1995 - 7th
1996 - 5th
1997 - 11th
1998 - 10th

Besides that he wasn’t even ranked

[basketballcat]

Pippen was in the All NBA FIRST team from 93 to 95. He finished 3rd in MVP voting in 94. Yes, he was top 5.

[3ba11]

No. He was top 5 in 1994, maybe.


If a secondary producer and supplementary player like Klay inherited a 3-peat dynasty in a one-off year (cratered in Year 2), no one would say decades later that he was better than franchise cornerstones like Embiid or Luka, regardless of the stats or team records.

Guys like Klay or Pippen are supplementary players that can't be compared to a cornerstone like Luka, KD, Embiid, Ewing or Barkley.. It's absurd and shows the shallow understanding of young fans that are forced to learn history on a computer screen and bballref.

At no point did anyone consider Pippen better than Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, MJ, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Drexler, while most knowledgeable fans considered him inferior to Penny, Hill, Kemp and many more.. That would be like saying supplementary players like Klay or Iggy are better than cornerstones like Embiid, Luka, or KD just because they had a 1-off year after inheriting a 3-peat dynasty.

This nonsense over 1994 is absurd - it's the lowest peak BY FAR of anyone in the top 50.. We're talking only 22 ppg peak with 55 wins and 2nd Round exit.. this includes worst-ever efficiency or clutch and getting destroyed by Ewing - that's the BEST pippen could do with everything going for him and a 3-peat dynasty to boot - the best he could do was get destroyed and completely embarrassed and exposed in historic fashion with 3.0 on 20% in the 4th - imagine if that happened in today's social media era

[plowking]

If a secondary producer and supplementary player like Klay inherited a 3-peat dynasty in a one-off year (cratered in Year 2), no one would say decades later that he was better than franchise cornerstones like Embiid or Luka, regardless of the stats or team records.

Guys like Klay or Pippen are supplementary players that can't be compared to a cornerstone like Luka, KD, Embiid, Ewing or Barkley.. It's absurd and shows the shallow understanding of young fans that are forced to learn history on a computer screen and bballref.

At no point did anyone consider Pippen better than Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, MJ, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Drexler, while most knowledgeable fans considered him inferior to Penny, Hill, Kemp and many more.. That would be like saying supplementary players like Klay or Iggy are better than cornerstones like Embiid, Luka, or KD just because they had a 1-off year after inheriting a 3-peat dynasty.

This nonsense over 1994 is absurd - it's the lowest peak BY FAR of anyone in the top 50.. We're talking only 22 ppg peak with 55 wins and 2nd Round exit.. this includes worst-ever efficiency or clutch and getting destroyed by Ewing - that's the BEST pippen could do with everything going for him and a 3-peat dynasty to boot - the best he could do was get destroyed and completely embarrassed and exposed in historic fashion with 3.0 on 20% in the 4th - imagine if that happened in today's social media era

Scottie was 8th in scoring that year. So he was better than 20+ other first options.
All while averaging more assists than the other 7 who were higher than him. Ultimate playmaker and scorer.

All while being 1st team Defense too!

Scottie does it all!

[3ba11]

Scottie was 8th in scoring that year. So he was better than 20+ other first options.
All while averaging more assists than the other 7 who were higher than him. Ultimate playmaker and scorer.

All while being 1st team Defense too!

Scottie does it all!


8th in scoring and 22 ppg is a horrific PEAK - Pippen had the worst peak of any top 50 player based on scoring, efficiency, regular season winning, or playoff performance.

People don't realize that the 94' Bulls weren't going to recover from their 2nd Round loss.. Any team with a secondary producer like Pippen or Klay as the team's best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY as we saw in 95'... Nonetheless, you guys think a historically-unique scenario (one-off season) by a secondary producer like Klay or Pippen puts them up there with cornerstones like Embiid, Barkley or Luka.. It's absurd..

If we could invent a guy that was going to be carried to 6 titles, Pippen would be the guy.. Our guy would average about 15-20 ppg on bad efficiency and NEVER hit a big shot, while the 1st option gets 30-35 and hits every big shot.. How could a player be carried MORE than this?

[ELITEpower23]

Of course he was. That's like asking if 3ball is jealous of LeBron passing MJ.

"Hey Yo at the Buzzer...!"

BAAAANG!!

[3ba11]

"Hey Yo at the Buzzer...!"

BAAAANG!!


Thread Cliffs


The Bulls were done by Year 2 of the "pippen era", so having a one-off fluke from inheriting a 3-peat dynasty doesn't make a secondary producer and supplementary player like Klay or Pippen comparable to cornerstones that carry franchises for decades like Embiid, Barkley or Luka.. aka Pippen wasn't better than Barkley in 1994 just because his PER was higher in that one year.

And Pippen's 94' season represents the lowest peak of anyone in the top 50 based on scoring, efficiency, regular season winning or playoff performance... It literally compares to 2005 Larry Hughes based on all of those metrics.

[Lebron23]

Thread Cliffs


The Bulls were done by Year 2 of the "pippen era", so having a one-off fluke from inheriting a 3-peat dynasty doesn't make a secondary producer and supplementary player like Klay or Pippen comparable to cornerstones that carry franchises for decades like Embiid, Barkley or Luka.. aka Pippen wasn't better than Barkley in 1994 just because his PER was higher in that one year.

And Pippen's 94' season represents the lowest peak of anyone in the top 50 based on scoring, efficiency, regular season winning or playoff performance... It literally compares to 2005 Larry Hughes based on all of those metrics.

Why did Michael Jordan never won an nba championship without Scottie Pippen??

[3ba11]

Why did Michael Jordan never won an nba championship without Scottie Pippen??


It's because MJ was good enough to never lose the instant he got 1 all-star, whereas 1 all-star wasn't enough for anyone else, so they got additional all-stars

Pippen was low-producing luckbox that just happened to be there when MJ entered his prime and MJ's goat ability to never lose once he got a single all-star allowed Pippen's "Iggy-caliber" to stick around and ride the winning spotlight to all-time status (most overrated player of all-time).

[Axe]

It's because MJ was good enough to never lose the instant he got 1 all-star, whereas 1 all-star wasn't enough for anyone else, so they got additional all-stars

Pippen was low-producing luckbox that just happened to be there when MJ entered his prime - MJ's goat ability to never lose once he got a single all-star allowed Pippen's "Iggy-caliber" to stick around and ride the winning spotlight to all-time status (most overrated player of all-time).
1-9

[3ba11]

1-9


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2023/7K2WYU.gif


Pippen just happened to be there when MJ entered his prime and MJ's goat ability to never lose once he got a single all-star allowed Pippen's "Iggy-caliber" to stick around and ride the winning spotlight to all-time status (most overrated player of all-time).

[ImKobe]

I guess I'm pretty tough. What you bench?



Pip was 1st team every year and went to the finals too in some of those years too... 99 is 3 years removed from that. Charles averaged what? A whole point and a bit more than Scottie? End of day, Scottie was taking more shots - hence he was the second option.



All time great defense too.



I didn't round his numbers down. I said in the 3 seasons Scottie was All NBA first team and compared their numbers there... He put up 22.6/11.3/4.1. If anything - rounding helped Barkley here and made the gap seem bigger lol. Thanks for pointing that out. There wasn't even a whole 2 points difference in scoring, but rather 1.7ppg.
Scottie also played significantly more games. Being even more valuable. Can't be good if you aren't on the court.




Sweet - in the year Pip was going to the 1st team All NBA, Barkley didn't do that.
Scottie also outplayed Barkley in 3 of those finals games - while Barkley outplayed Pip in 3 - just as an FYI.



Yes - Malone continued as a first option, while Pippen was now a second option in 97 and 98. Scottie sacrificed stats and glory to stay on a competitive team and win championships. You're the same type of person that'll change their narrative and tell us Chris Bosh was a top 5 player in the league yet ignore his putrid stats on the Heat. Also ignore the fact he never made more than one All NBA team, never came close to an MVP, never came close to an All defensive team and simply put up pretty stats.



Is that honestly the best you can do? Lose an argument then resort to "xxxxx dickrider". I'm in the Denver and Lakers gamethread consistently rooting for the Nuggets. Kinda like you were - but you because you're sad and still take the time to hate a player. :oldlol:



I don't need to convince anyone. When Pippen had his own team - he factually, with stats and analytics was a top 5 guy in the league. He also led them to 55 wins - which would have been good for 1st seed in the West this year.
That 55 wins was more than Malone and Stockton achieved together that season.
1 win off the Suns.
That was all while MJ was taken off their team - should have been a far bigger impact - no?

Scottie in his first season alone - with no time to adapt in the 1st option role manages to take them to 55 wins.

So no real answers just skirting around the facts provided in my post. Typical Bran meatrider behavior.

I'll even throw in the POs for '94 to make a further case here

Barkley in the '94 POs averaged 28/13/5/3 on 50.9%FG/57.5%TS w/ a 27.8 PER & 8.8 BPM & 1.1 VORP (#1 PER & BPM)
Meanwhile Pippen averaged 23/8/5/2 on 43.4%FG/54.9%TS 18.9 PER 5.9 BPM 0.8 VORP (this is supposed to be a #1 option at his peak btw)

Barkley in that POs had a 56/14/4/3 game on 23/31 shooting/80.1%TS to close out the Warriors too, I've never seen Pippen do anything even remotely close to that in any game of his career. Even a slightly diminished Barkley was miles ahead of peak Pippen.

Pippen did have the better RS due to Barkley's injury but by no means was he ever on prime Chuck level. We saw in the '93 Finals, we saw it in the Playoffs throughout their careers and we saw it when they were teammates and a washed Barkley was still a more impactful player.

Again, All-NBA means jack shit (could only have one of the Centers on 1st team, even Jokic this year was 2nd team this year) in ranking players based on their performance in RS + POs to make your top 5 argument for peak Pippen, and he failed to be a top 5 player in the league even with MJ retired and giving up one of those spots. Pippen was never a top 5 player in the league, whether you cherry-pick the non-MJ seasons where MJ was retired, or them playing together. You're not going to convince anyone who actually knows shit about the 90s NBA history about Pippen being a legitimate top 5 player at any point in his career.

You would never choose Pippen as one of the first 5 guys in the POs in any of those seasons. Even when he peaked in the RS in his absolute prime he put up stinkers in the Playoffs and couldn't carry the scoring load of a #1 option. He was always a #2 and someone that needed to be carried on the offensive end, and that mattered more in the 90s than perhaps in any other era besides the early 2000s.

[Lebron23]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2023/7K2WYU.gif


Pippen just happened to be there when MJ entered his prime and MJ's goat ability to never lose once he got a single all-star allowed Pippen's "Iggy-caliber" to stick around and ride the winning spotlight to all-time status (most overrated player of all-time).

Pippen was a rookie in 1988. LMAO.

[Bawkish]

Pippen was a rookie in 1988. LMAO.

Using your Wizards MJ logic, so what?

[3ba11]

Pippen was a rookie in 1988. LMAO.


Was Pippen a "franchise player"?

Supplementary players like Klay or Pippen can't be compared to cornerstones like Embiid, Barkley or Luka that carry franchises for entire decades.

A one-off season after inheriting a dynasty can't be used to compare the winning ability of a supplementary player with a cornerstone that is weathering the ups and downs.

If Embiid is your leading scorer, then there's a lot of room to have good scorers and good help beneath him, whereas any team led by Pippen or Klay will fall out of contention quickly due to lack of talent like we saw with the 95' Bulls.. This is why supplementary players aren't compared to cornerstones, especially based on one-off seasons from inheriting a dynasty.

And Pippen's 94' season represents the lowest peak of anyone in the top 50 based on scoring, efficiency, regular season winning or playoff performance... It literally compares to 2005 Larry Hughes based on all of those metrics.

[basketballcat]

Was Pippen a "franchise player"?

94 Pippen led the Bulls to a 55-win season. That's better than Reggie Miller's Pacers. He's their franchise player. Even took the Bulls to a 7-game series later on. That's better than the Shaq's Orlando Magic. He's their franchise player. He took the Magic to the Finals later on. That's as good as David Robinson's San Antonio Spurs. He was their franchise player before Duncan came along.

You seem to continually belittle Pippen's 94 season. He finished 3rd in MVP voting. That's as high as Wade ever got.

You seem to be obsessed with scoring, like every other casual on the internet. Let's look at other equally important aspects of the game. Pippen made the All Defensive team 10 times. Only 5 players made it more times. How many times did Wade make it? 3 times. He's down there at #78 in all time selections.

In 94, he led the team in points, assists, and steals. 2nd in rebounds and blocks. Far lesser players have been tagged as a "franchise player".

Pippen led the league in steals in 95. Did any of LeBron's main teammates ever gotten such an accomplishment? Nah. Not even close.

The GOAT coach himself had this to say about Pippen:
"Scottie is such an unselfish player. He is the greatest all-around player in the NBA right now. He is absolutely terrific. Michael is a terrific player and I am not trying to take anything away from him, but Scottie as a rebounder, as a passer, as a defender, you know, the whole complete package. The greater energy he can have on the court, he does a lot of things on the basketball court. He can lead a team as well, he can get 10-12 points, 10 rebounds, and 10 assists and be the determining factor in a game. Nobody can score on Michael and scoring is a wonderful thing to do, but it is not the be-all end-all."

Look, mate. Everybody can see through your b*****it. You want to diminish Pippen to elevate your boyfriend. You want to perpetuate the Nike-funded narrative that the 90s plumber boy was a lone wolf that did it all by himself. You're also afraid that your plumber is going to get exposed as having superteams all along. It's pathetic, really.

[ImKobe]

94 Pippen led the Bulls to a 55-win season. That's better than Reggie Miller's Pacers. He's their franchise player. Even took the Bulls to a 7-game series later on. That's better than the Shaq's Orlando Magic. He's their franchise player. He took the Magic to the Finals later on. That's as good as David Robinson's San Antonio Spurs. He was their franchise player before Duncan came along.


Look, mate. Everybody can see through your b*****it. You want to diminish Pippen to elevate your boyfriend. You want to perpetuate the Nike-funded narrative that the 90s plumber boy was a lone wolf that did it all by himself. You're also afraid that your plumber is going to get exposed as having superteams all along. It's pathetic, really.

Correcting people on Pippen's actual standing in the league is not hating. You're asking people to suspend belief and put him on the same level with players like Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq & Malone... He wasn't THAT guy. So you're fine with diminishing all the other superstars in the 90s just to prop Pippen up?

And people keep parroting the 55-win season bs when the Bulls were significantly worse than the year before, but overperformed in crunch time (in large part bc of Kukoc, who was a rookie) which is why the win total is as high as it was. The Bulls went from a #2 Offense to 14th, went from #4 SRS to #11 and went from being #2 in Net Rating to #11 as well. They won 20 out of 22 games that were decided by 2 possessions (+/- 6 pts) or less in the RS.

Pippen was not good enough offensively to be the #1 on a contender and it showed in the POs. He put up less points on worse efficiency vs. the Knicks team (a worse version of the Knicks with Starks injured before the POs and playing hurt) without Jordan. When he became the main focus of the opposing defense he couldn't carry the offense in the half court.

Pip was like the perfect #2 for a team that had a dominant #1 scoring option but he wasn't THAT guy.

[ILLsmak]

Maybe not. 95--> yea

ILL Smak you know. IL. Da stupid pun. I didn't stay in IL my whole life, but I was right there during the whole bulls thing. A bit young for 1st 3peat but was really into the 2nd. Bulls homer announcers (and honestly big wigs, and hyperbole people like Bill Walton) consistently put Pip AT NUMBER TWO, like right behind Michael no shit. Was that true? I dunno. It was true enough to say and nobody got mad. He was definitely a gigantic factor.

The whole dynamic of teams/leading... whatever, not sure it's well understood. There isn't ONE ALPHA all the time. Scottie was not the leader, but he was right there, and prol the only time anyone gave him biz was MJ in practice. Pippen has some of the most iconic moments (haha ye the sitting out thing is a black mark) in bball history, too! Some of those dunks were v nice.

He just had a special mindset. Ho Grant I think slightly beefed with MJ. Pip might have a little, too, but once MJ saw him in the showers... haha nah, but the 2nd 3 peat team was so good not cuz they were all at the top but because Pip was a true superstar who was down to play whatever role he had to. I'm even gonna get his back on the U GONNA DRAW UP A PLAY FOR TONI NOW?! But then you had Rodman who was also a huge personality and not submissive to Michael, but it was all cohesive. They more or less put it all on the other team. No discord. Pretty crazy to absorb someone like Rodman and bring out the best in him, at least for one year, then float to 2 more rangz. MJ himself couldn't have controlled Rodman. The MJ/Pip dynamic is very underrated and it's like THE BENCHMARK for duos. It's just a big issue cuz people try to use it to discredit MJ or who even knows why haha.

I don't necessarily go along with people's opinion, though. I mean, is Pip better than Shaq? Never. Hakeem when he was b2b? Doubt. It gets kind of muddied after that. All those young guys come in, don't really remember who got injured when. PENNY for instance was a monster before he got injured, but judging him against Pip is tough. I know Penny could do his own thing better, but who impacts a bball team more? Pip prol.

Also keep in mind consensus 1 and top 5 is a biiig gap. Afaik, nobody ever said Pip was the best player in the NBA (in a serious way, not just some off the cuff Bill Walton hi grade stuff.) Pretty sure I can find dudes gushing over the other 90s stars. And yea, you do kind of have to be able to get 25-30 ppg to lead a team. Back then teams were scoring like 100, so that was a lot of pts.

Pip's a guy who is gonna play 75+ games and be NBA team 1 more than likely, so... I mean, I dunno what the POINT OF THIS THREAD IS, but yeah I think he was, at least by the end.

Edit:
Barkley.


oya, but that's still not 5. Malone haha.

-Smak

[basketballcat]

Correcting people on Pippen's actual standing in the league is not hating. You're asking people to suspend belief and put him on the same level with players like Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq & Malone... He wasn't THAT guy. So you're fine with diminishing all the other superstars in the 90s just to prop Pippen up?

And people keep parroting the 55-win season bs when the Bulls were significantly worse than the year before, but overperformed in crunch time (in large part bc of Kukoc, who was a rookie) which is why the win total is as high as it was. The Bulls went from a #2 Offense to 14th, went from #4 SRS to #11 and went from being #2 in Net Rating to #11 as well. They won 20 out of 22 games that were decided by 2 possessions (+/- 6 pts) or less in the RS.

Pippen was not good enough offensively to be the #1 on a contender and it showed in the POs. He put up less points on worse efficiency vs. the Knicks team (a worse version of the Knicks with Starks injured before the POs and playing hurt) without Jordan. When he became the main focus of the opposing defense he couldn't carry the offense in the half court.

Pip was like the perfect #2 for a team that had a dominant #1 scoring option but he wasn't THAT guy.

Yet another dumb strawman argument. Nowhere did I say that Pippen is on the same tier as Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq & Malone. Those are MVPs.

HOWEVER, he is clearly good enough to be a franchise player. How many franchises are there in the NBA? 30. If you are a top 30 player, you are definitely good enough to be a franchise player. A franchise player, by definition, is the player by which a franchise is built around. Are you telling me peak Pippen isn't good enough to be best player in any NBA team? That's ABSURD.

Sure, try to knock him down because he didn't win a ring. So did a VAST number of all time greats including Malone. Lillard has not had a sniff at a championship yet he is clearly a "franchise player".

Finally, that comment about the Bulls dropped in wins AFTER A TOP 3 PLAYER OF THE PREVIOUS SEASON LEFT THE TEAM is just dumb. How did Jordan do without Pippen or Phil? 1-9.

Pippen is a franchise player caliber player. He went as far as top 3 MVP and later on conference finals without Jordan. What has Jordan done without Pippen? 1-9.

[ImKobe]

I dunno what the POINT OF THIS THREAD IS, but yeah I think he was, at least by the end.


Point of this thread is to diminish MJ's accomplishments because Lebron underperformed in the Playoffs yet again. Bran stans are in full deflect mode and shitting on everyone not named Lebron since he choked and got swept for the 3rd time in his career.

Pippen was an amazing player and at times could look like he belonged, but he was in the 2nd tier due to his limited offense. Of course he had a lot of hype and how could you not respect someone who was a #2 for two three-peats? But the Jordan stuff is just flat out undeniable with him leading the Bulls in every single series for his career, and we don't have to use Pippen to diminish what he did.

And then when the pro-Jordan folk respond and say "wait, hold on..." it's considered hating or diminishing Pippen's legacy, but I don't think anyone had a problem with how he was viewed before the Lebron stans started acting like he was as good as anyone in the 90s.

[ImKobe]

Yet another dumb strawman argument. Nowhere did I say that Pippen is on the same tier as Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq & Malone. Those are MVPs.

HOWEVER, he is clearly good enough to be a franchise player. How many franchises are there in the NBA? 30. If you are a top 30 player, you are definitely good enough to be a franchise player. A franchise player, by definition, is the player by which a franchise is built around? Are you telling me peak Pippen isn't good enough to be best player in all NBA teams? That's ABSURD.

Sure, try to knock him down because he didn't win a ring. So did a VAST number of all time greats including Malone. Lillard has not had a sniff at a championship yet he is clearly a "franchise player".

Finally, that comment about the Bulls dropped in wins AFTER A TOP 3 PLAYER OF THE PREVIOUS SEASON LEFT THE TEAM is just dumb. How did Jordan do without Pippen or Phil? 1-9.

Pippen is a franchise player caliber player. He went as far as top 3 MVP and later on conference finals without Jordan. What has Jordan done without Pippen? 1-9.

What the **** does that even mean? So he wasn't as good as the actual superstars who won MVPs & led teams to 60+ wins and WCF/Finals in the POs, which means he was not a top 5 player at any point, even when Jordan retired.

And you put the final nail in your coffin by bringing up the 1-9 argument.

Pippen was not a top 5 player. End of story.

[basketballcat]

Pippen was an amazing player and at times could look like he belonged, but he was in the 2nd tier due to his limited offense.
A couple of questions.

1. Which players were 1st tier in the 90s?

2. Which of LeBron's teammates was 1st tier? If none, who was the best during his years with LeBron?

Btw, we get it. You like Kobe. Kobe is just Jordan Lite. If Jordan gets diminished, so does Kobe. :kobe:

[ImKobe]

A couple of questions.

1. Which players were 1st tier in the 90s?

2. Which of LeBron's teammates was 1st tier? If none, who was the best during his years with LeBron?



Hakeem - 1st option
Barkley - 1st option
Shaq - 1st option
Malone - 1st option
D-Rob - 1st option
Ewing - 1st option

All those guys led their teams to better Regular Seasons and everyone besides D-Rob got their team to the Finals as well.

Pip wasn't that guy. Sorry.


Wade and AD both were 1st tier.

[ImKobe]

Btw, we get it. You like Kobe. Kobe is just Jordan Lite. If Jordan gets diminished, so does Kobe. :kobe:

This has nothing to do with Kobe man.

Pippen objectively was not one of the 5 best players in the league at any point in his career. You can talk about his defense all you want but he lacked the offense to be the man and you really needed a dominant #1 in the 90s.

[basketballcat]

What the **** does that even mean?
Your lack of basic comprehension skills is just astounding.


he was not a top 5 player at any point
Pippen literally finished 3rd in MVP voting in 94. :kobe:

[ImKobe]

Your lack of basic comprehension skills is just astounding.


Pippen literally finished 3rd in MVP voting in 94. :kobe:

Ok?

Was D-Rob the best player in the league in '95?
Was Malone better than Jordan when he won MVP in '97?

:banghead:

[basketballcat]

Hakeem - 1st option
Barkley - 1st option
Shaq - 1st option
Malone - 1st option
D-Rob - 1st option
Ewing - 1st option

All those guys led their teams to better Regular Seasons and everyone besides D-Rob got their team to the Finals as well.

Pip wasn't that guy. Sorry.


Wade and AD both were 1st tier.

Wade & AD never won MVP or FMVP while with LeBron. In fact, LeBron won those award over them. Wade & AD were never the "first option" in those years with LeBron. Wade's highest result in MVP voting is 3rd. Pippen got that in 94. Pippen is a far superior defensive player too. AD's best result was 6th. Pippen surpassed that.

As for the 90s players those are just 6. That's not a big number. Pippen was arguable better than some of those in his peak.

How about this list?
Durant
CP3
Kobe
Parker
Love
Dwight
Rondo
Nash
You know what those are? Players better than Wade in 2012. Sorry.

Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Kobe
CP3
Parker
Duncan
Harden
Westbrook
All better than Wade in 2013. Sorry. He wasn't THAT guy. :kobe:

[basketballcat]

Ok?

Was D-Rob the best player in the league in '95?
Was Malone better than Jordan when he won MVP in '97?

:banghead:

The Spurs had 62 wins in 95. Who else had more? Who else deserves the REGULAR SEASON AWARD more? :kobe:

In 97, Malone was as good as Jordan. AT WORST, he's the 2nd best player in the league. Are we going to act like he was 10th best? :facepalm

[ImKobe]

Wade & AD

Again, you're losing here.

If we cherry-pick the one non-MJ season from Pippen in '94, Wade put up much better numbers and led a team to championship before Lebron even joined his team.. and carried the Heat in the 2011 Finals with 27 ppg on elite efficiency when Bran choked & got outscored by Jason ****ing Terry. AD led the Lakers in everything but APG in the 2020 RS and led them in scoring in the POs.


This is all that it boils down to. You don't care about Pippen and probably agree with me that he wasn't THAT guy, but your only goal is to diminish Jordan in order to make some weird case for Lebron, which he clearly doesn't have.

[basketballcat]

Again, you're losing here.

If we cherry-pick the one non-MJ season from Pippen in '94, Wade put up much better numbers and led a team to championship before Lebron even joined his team.. and carried the Heat in the 2011 Finals with 27 ppg on elite efficiency when Bran choked & got outscored by Jason ****ing Terry. AD led the Lakers in everything but APG in the 2020 RS and led them in scoring in the POs.


This is all that it boils down to. You don't care about Pippen and probably agree with me that he wasn't THAT guy, but your only goal is to diminish Jordan in order to make some weird case for Lebron, which he clearly doesn't have.
Wade before LeBron is not the same Wade DURING LeBron. Championship Wade was 5 years prior to LeBron. Wade before LeBron is irrelevant. What did Wade do right after LeBron left? Miss the playoffs.

[ImKobe]

Wade before LeBron is not the same Wade DURING LeBron. Championship Wade was 5 years prior to LeBron. Wade before LeBron is irrelevant. What did Wade do right after LeBron left? Miss the playoffs.

'94 Pippen is not the same Pippen DURING Jordan.

Bran choked with prime Wade in 2011 so you can go **** yourself.

[basketballcat]

Hakeem - 1st option
Barkley - 1st option
Shaq - 1st option
Malone - 1st option
D-Rob - 1st option
Ewing - 1st option

The obsession with being "1st option" reeks of casual fan logic. Magic was the 3rd option in 1980. He was FMVP. Was he not "that guy"? Same in 82.

Also, since you keep bringing up numbers, is Trae Young better than Isiah Thomas? Trae's numbers (points, assists) this year obliterates Isiah's numbers on his 2 championship years. Even Ja Morant this year has better numbers than Isiah.

[basketballcat]

'94 Pippen is not the same Pippen DURING Jordan.

Bran choked with prime Wade in 2011 so you can go **** yourself.

94 Pippen is sandwiched between the two 3-peats. Literally one year from Jordan left.

Wade's championship run was a distant memory when James came to Miami.

[ImKobe]

94 Pippen is sandwiched between the two 3-peats. Literally one year from Jordan left.

Wade's championship run was a distant memory when James came to Miami.

Ok? So was '96-'98 Pippen as good as '94 Pippen? lol..

Wade was arguably as good as Kobe and Lebron in '09 (his peak season) and was a monster in 2010 and 2011 as well..

And AGAIN

2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals

Answer?

[ImKobe]

The obsession with being "1st option" reeks of casual fan logic. Magic was the 3rd option in 1980. He was FMVP. Was he not "that guy"? Same in 82.

Also, since you keep bringing up numbers, is Trae Young better than Isiah Thomas? Trae's numbers (points, assists) this year obliterates Isiah's numbers on his 2 championship years. Even Ja Morant this year has better numbers than Isiah.

Exception does not make the rule when it comes to Magic, and Magic had series where he was a #1 option in his title runs and his efficiency was way above anything Pippen could ever dream of. Pippen never led the Bulls in scoring in any series in any of the Jordan years once.

[basketballcat]

Ok? So was '96-'98 Pippen as good as '94 Pippen? lol..

Wade was arguably as good as Kobe and Lebron in '09 (his peak season) and was a monster in 2010 and 2011 as well..

And AGAIN

2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals
2011 Finals

Answer?

2011 was when a 26-year old James made to the Finals. What did 26-year old Jordan do? Got dismissed in the 2nd round.

As for Wade, he wasn't "that guy". You know who was "that guy"? Dirk. :violin:

AGAIN, 1-9. :kobe:

[basketballcat]

Exception does not make the rule when it comes to Magic, and Magic had series where he was a #1 option in his title runs and his efficiency was way above anything Pippen could ever dream of. Pippen never led the Bulls in scoring in any series in any of the Jordan years once.

How many series did Jordan lead the Bulls in anything other than scoring in any of his Pippen years?

Ben Wallace was the best player and the key to the Pistons defense. He was far from the first option. Billups was the FMVP. He wasn't the first option.

The GOAT himself has 5 MVPs and 11 rings. He was never the first option.

[ImKobe]

2011 was when a 26-year old James made to the Finals. What did 26-year old Jordan do? Got dismissed in the 2nd round.

As for Wade, he wasn't "that guy". You know who was "that guy"? Dirk. :violin:

AGAIN, 1-9. :kobe:

Wade was the best player in the series by a comfortable margin and your idol choked worse than anyone ever has in NBA history.

[basketballcat]

Wade was the best player in the series by a comfortable margin and your idol choked worse than anyone ever has in NBA history.

That's a lot better than getting bounced in the 2nd round at the same age. :kobe:

[ImKobe]

How many series did Jordan lead the Bulls in anything other than scoring in any of his Pippen years?

Ben Wallace was the best player and the key to the Pistons defense. He was far from the first option. Billups was the FMVP. He wasn't the first option.

The GOAT himself has 5 MVPs and 11 rings. He was never the first option.

He led the '91 Bulls in points, assists & blocks in the POs
He led the '93 Bulls in points & assists in the POs
He led the '97 Bulls in points, assists & steals in the POs



You can keep moving the goalposts all you like but Pippen was never a top 5 player and Lebron will never come close to being the GOAT.

[basketballcat]

He led the '91 Bulls in points, assists & blocks in the POs
He led the '93 Bulls in points & assists in the POs
He led the '97 Bulls in points, assists & steals in the POs



You can keep moving the goalposts all you like but Pippen was never a top 5 player and Lebron will never come close to being the GOAT.

Let's look at 91. In the main stats that Jordan didn't lead, Pippen led: rebounds and steals. In the categories that Jordan led, Pippen was 2nd. Jordan had a stacked team because the Bulls had two franchise players. Super team. :kobe:

Incidentally, Pippen had higher playoff ppg than Magic that year. :lebronamazed:

[ImKobe]

Let's look at 91. In the main stats that Jordan didn't lead, Pippen led: rebounds and steals. In the categories that Jordan led, Pippen was 2nd. Jordan had a stacked team because the Bulls had two franchise players. Super team. :kobe:

Incidentally, Pippen had higher playoff ppg than Magic that year. :lebronamazed:

Pippen also led them in turnovers despite MJ carrying all the load lol..

Magic averaged 21.8 ppg in the '91 Playoffs, Pippen 21.6, and Magic was way more efficient too and he was a #1 option

oopsie

[basketballcat]

Pippen also led them in turnovers despite MJ carrying all the load lol..

Magic averaged 21.8 ppg in the '91 Playoffs, Pippen 21.6, and Magic was way more efficient too and he was a #1 option

oopsie

91 Finals
Pippen: 20.8 :lebronamazed:
Magic: 18.6

Magic was the SECOND option.

In fact, Pippen had higher ppg than ANY Laker. Wow. :kobe:

[ImKobe]

91 Finals
Pippen: 20.8 :lebronamazed:
Magic: 18.6

Magic was the SECOND option.

In fact, Pippen had higher ppg than ANY Laker. Wow. :kobe:

Pippen - 20.8 ppg on 52.7%TS
Magic - 18.6 ppg on 61.2%TS

Worthy was actually the #1 option before his injury in Game 4 since the Bulls focused a lot of their defensive attention on Magic. He averaged 21.7 ppg on 50.9%FG through the first 3 games of the series to Pippen's 19.3 on 44.2%.

Again, you lose lol.

[Axe]

Pippen > Ad

:kobe:

[ImKobe]

Pippen > Ad

:kobe:

AD is what Bran stans think Pippen was in the 90s lol. It's ridiculous. AD is a better defender and is tiers above Pippen offensively too. Imagine if Jordan won one of those 6 rings with Pippen leading the team in points :roll: we'd never hear the end of it.

[basketballcat]

Pippen - 20.8 ppg on 52.7%TS
Magic - 18.6 ppg on 61.2%TS

Worthy was actually the #1 option before his injury in Game 4 since the Bulls focused a lot of their defensive attention on Magic. He averaged 21.7 ppg on 50.9%FG through the first 3 games of the series to Pippen's 19.3 on 44.2%.

Again, you lose lol.

Oh, we care about TS now? Okay.

Career TS
LeBron: 58.8%
Jordan: 56.9%

Whoopsie :djparty

[Axe]

55 wins > 48 wins

Also took the knicks to 7 games in the 1994 ecsf vs. exiting in 5 games against gs in the 2018 wcsf.

2000 playoff run with the blazers was a good one as well when they almost bounced the eventual champion lakers in the wcf.

:lebronamazed:

[ImKobe]

Oh, we care about TS now? Okay.

Career TS
LeBron: 58.8%
Jordan: 56.9%

Whoopsie :djparty

Doesn't really work that way but you do you.

So we established that Pippen was in fact not top 5 and that Lebron is still a choking loser. Was fun.

[basketballcat]

AD is a better defender and is tiers above Pippen offensively too.

Holy s**t, that's dumb.

AD's best finish is 3rd in DPOY. Pippen came in 2nd, TWICE. Lost to Mutombo, then Payton.

You're clearly delusional. Ciao. :kobe:

P.S. I love helicopters. :yaohappy:

[ImKobe]

55 wins > 48 wins

Also took the knicks to 7 games in the 1994 ecsf vs. exiting in 5 games against gs in the 2018 wcsf.

2000 playoff run with the blazers was a good one as well when they almost bounced the eventual champion lakers in the wcf.

:lebronamazed:

Want to tell me what Pippen did in the 2nd half of that Game 7? 4th quarter? I wouldn't brag about the greatest choke job in Game 7 history, which it probably was at the time.

How about the 1999 series against the Lakers when he turned the ball over down 1 to win the game for the Lakers in Game 1, and the Rockets lost in 4 games with Pippen shooting 32.9%? How did that Barkley-Pippen-Hakeem superteam work out btw? :oldlol:

:roll:

[ImKobe]

Holy s**t, that's dumb.

AD's best finish is 3rd in DPOY. Pippen came in 2nd, TWICE. Lost to Mutombo, then Payton.

You're clearly delusional. Ciao. :kobe:

P.S. I love helicopters. :yaohappy:

Bulls had a better defender in Jordan, who actually won DPOY :lol

[WhiteKyrie]

Pippen was a rookie in 1988. LMAO.

No, you can’t have it both ways.

So the narrative strawman was MJ didn't win in the playoffs without Pippen. As of that was immediately the deciding factor in bim advancing in the playoffs.

In a conference mind you that was more difficult than the east was in the 2000s and definitely the 2010s. Two of Michael’s first three postseason’s, on a absolutely dogshit team, faced a top-five team ever in Larry Bird Celtics. Who is faulting him for losing those in their right mind? Especially considering how he performed?

Bulls got to the ECSF in 1988
MJ: 36 ppg 7 rpg 5 apg
Pippen: 10 ppg 5 rpg 2 apg

Scottie was role player status at best, irregardless of it being his rookie year. It just goes to show you he wasn’t a superstar player out of the gates. And that’s the point.

Bulls got to the ECF in 1989 and gave the Pistons their only two losses
MJ: 35 ppg 7 rpg 8 apg
Pippen: 13 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg

So Michael came within two games of getting to the Finals that playoffs with Scottie Pippen still being nothing more than a best a role player.

You can’t sling this stupid narrative strawman as a LeBrons Stan, that has somehow gained stupid traction over the past 5 to 8 years, and then when somebody mention, Scottie Pippen was nothing but a role player, his first 2 1/2 years in the league, complain, and say he was only a rookie and sophomore player. Because that’s the point he wasn’t anything of note until late 1990 and wasn’t truly reliable as a star sidekick until 1991.

[Axe]

Want to tell me what Pippen did in the 2nd half of that Game 7? 4th quarter? I wouldn't brag about the greatest choke job in Game 7 history, which it probably was at the time.

How about the 1999 series against the Lakers when he turned the ball over down 1 to win the game for the Lakers in Game 1, and the Rockets lost in 4 games with Pippen shooting 32.9%? How did that Barkley-Pippen-Hakeem superteam work out btw? :oldlol:

:roll:
Eh, no need to answer any of that shit. :rockon:

What i do tho know is, at least he's gotten farther in the playoffs without jordan versus vice versa. While as for ad, well, he's never made the conference finals yet without a superstar by his side. Go figure. :lol

[Airupthere]

No, you can’t have it both ways.

So the narrative strawman was MJ didn't win in the playoffs without Pippen. As of that was immediately the deciding factor in bim advancing in the playoffs.

In a conference mind you that was more difficult than the east was in the 2000s and definitely the 2010s. Two of Michael’s first three postseason’s, on a absolutely dogshit team, faced a top-five team ever in Larry Bird Celtics. Who is faulting him for losing those in their right mind? Especially considering how he performed?

Bulls got to the ECSF in 1988
MJ: 36 ppg 7 rpg 5 apg
Pippen: 10 ppg 5 rpg 2 apg

Scottie was role player status at best, irregardless of it being his rookie year. It just goes to show you he wasn’t a superstar player out of the gates. And that’s the point.

Bulls got to the ECF in 1989 and gave the Pistons their only two losses
MJ: 35 ppg 7 rpg 8 apg
Pippen: 13 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg

So Michael came within two games of getting to the Finals that playoffs with Scottie Pippen still being nothing more than a best a role player.

You can’t sling this stupid narrative strawman as a LeBrons Stan, that has somehow gained stupid traction over the past 5 to 8 years, and then when somebody mention, Scottie Pippen was nothing but a role player, his first 2 1/2 years in the league, complain, and say he was only a rookie and sophomore player. Because that’s the point he wasn’t anything of note until late 1990 and wasn’t truly reliable as a star sidekick until 1991.

Excellent post but this will go way over his head. Ask questions like, put Wemby on the 90s Jazz, how many ringz?

[ImKobe]

Eh, no need to answer any of that shit. :rockon:

What i do tho know is, at least he's gotten farther in the playoffs without jordan versus vice versa. While as for ad, well, he's never made the conference finals yet without a superstar by his side. Go figure. :lol

The hell does that even mean? So MJ's '89 Playoff run doesn't count because Pippen happened to be on the team? He wasn't even a damn All-Star at that point. Jordan averaged damn near 22 more ppg than Pippen in that Playoff run. Somehow Pippen gets more credit for making the WCF as a 3rd option lmao.

[WhiteKyrie]

The hell does that even mean? So MJ's '89 Playoff run doesn't count because Pippen happened to be on the team? He wasn't even a damn All-Star at that point. Jordan averaged damn near 22 more ppg than Pippen in that Playoff run. Somehow Pippen gets more credit for making the WCF as a 3rd option lmao.

It’s a narrative strawman that was spun in the media to push the LeBron agenda for young dumb viewership and attempt to find some crack that could be exploited in MJs resume. But if you watched or understand what happened, you know it’s retarded.

[jlip]

Whether he was top five or not during that window, he definitely received a lot of praise for being top five from basically 1992-1998.


Anonymous coaches' poll from 1994-
•Best one-on-one defender: Bull forward Scottie Pippen (six votes) edged Spur forward Dennis Rodman (four). Olajuwon, Blaylock and Sonic guard Gary Payton (two votes each) were the only other players chosen by more than one coach. "Rodman used to be the guy. but he's slipped—he doesn't like to go too far from the basket anymore," says a Western coach, I think Pippen can disrupt more than Rodman."

•Player you would pay to see: Barkley, Olajuwon and Pippen tied with four votes each. O'Neal, with two votes, was the only other player with more than one.

Finally, it's worth noting that Pippen was the only player to receive at least one vote in five categories—last shot, starting a franchise, best defender, best passer and player worth paying to see.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1994/02/28/the-nba


Going back as early as 1992
February 24, 1992-

He is 15th in the league in scoring. (Michael Jordan is first.) He is 34th in the league in rebounding. (Jordan is not in the top 40, which is as low as the rankings go.) He is 12th in the league in assists per game. (Jordan is 23rd.) He is 15th in the league in steals per game. (Jordan is sixth.) He is 34th in the league in blocked shots per game. (Jordan is 17th.) He is 35th in the league in field goal percentage. (Jordan is 16th.) His height is 6'7". (Jordan's is 6'6".) His weight is 210 pounds. (Jordan's is 198.) His age is 26. (Jordan's is 29.) The numbers do not lie. Scottie Pippen has become a very, very good player. (Very close—heart, be still—to Jordan.)

"You think about it, Scottie Pippen might just be the second-best all-around player in the league," Bill Walton, the broadcaster and former NBA All-Star, says. "Who's better, outside of Michael? Who does more things? Karl Malone, maybe. Maybe not."

https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/02/24/out-of-the-shadow-after-years-of-being-eclipsed-by-his-teammate-michael-jordan-the-chicago-bulls-scottie-pippen-has-stepped-into-the-limelight


February 03, 1992-
No, Wilkins is not as good an all-around player as Pippen—or Bird, for that matter—but he has averaged 28.6 points per game and, like Adams, has a high fun factor. Pippen's versatility mandates his inclusion on Si's roster, as does Rodman's big-time rebounding.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/02/03/the-nba

Bird on Pippen in 1998
“Michael Jordan played the mind game better than almost anyone. He really knew how to get inside people’s heads,” Bird wrote. “Plus, I believe he had the second best player in the league right next to him in Scottie Pippen. You take Michael off that team, and Scottie moves down to fifth. But when Michael was out there with him, they were the best two in the league."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bird_Watching/SoXikyW3S40C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Plus,+I+believe+he+had+the+second+best+player+i n+the+league+right+next+to+him+in+Scottie+Pippen.&pg=PT147&printsec=frontcover


During the 1996 Finals Dr. J said that the Bulls had "two of the three best American players" on the same team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z8mm3WUH7I#t=7m15s

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

For those two seasons anyway.

Pippen was the best perimeter defender, while also affecting that end like a bigman. Overall...he was like top 5 in BPM as well as Value Over Replacement. That's Hakeem, Shaq and DRob company.

The impact and advanced stats are there. So objectively there's at least a case to be had.

[Axe]

The hell does that even mean? So MJ's '89 Playoff run doesn't count because Pippen happened to be on the team? He wasn't even a damn All-Star at that point. Jordan averaged damn near 22 more ppg than Pippen in that Playoff run. Somehow Pippen gets more credit for making the WCF as a 3rd option lmao.
Lol jordan only got farther once he started sharing the ball with his teammates, which also led his ppg numbers to drop as well. Then after years passed by, those renowned teammates were completely able to make the playoffs without him in 1994.

[Axe]

It’s a narrative strawman that was spun in the media to push the LeBron agenda for young dumb viewership and attempt to find some crack that could be exploited in MJs resume. But if you watched or understand what happened, you know it’s retarded.
This fuming casual obviously lacks brain cells to acknowledge the truth. :confusedshrug:

[Micku]

No, you can’t have it both ways.

So the narrative strawman was MJ didn't win in the playoffs without Pippen. As of that was immediately the deciding factor in bim advancing in the playoffs.

In a conference mind you that was more difficult than the east was in the 2000s and definitely the 2010s. Two of Michael’s first three postseason’s, on a absolutely dogshit team, faced a top-five team ever in Larry Bird Celtics. Who is faulting him for losing those in their right mind? Especially considering how he performed?

Bulls got to the ECSF in 1988
MJ: 36 ppg 7 rpg 5 apg
Pippen: 10 ppg 5 rpg 2 apg

Scottie was role player status at best, irregardless of it being his rookie year. It just goes to show you he wasn’t a superstar player out of the gates. And that’s the point.

Bulls got to the ECF in 1989 and gave the Pistons their only two losses
MJ: 35 ppg 7 rpg 8 apg
Pippen: 13 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg

So Michael came within two games of getting to the Finals that playoffs with Scottie Pippen still being nothing more than a best a role player.

You can’t sling this stupid narrative strawman as a LeBrons Stan, that has somehow gained stupid traction over the past 5 to 8 years, and then when somebody mention, Scottie Pippen was nothing but a role player, his first 2 1/2 years in the league, complain, and say he was only a rookie and sophomore player. Because that’s the point he wasn’t anything of note until late 1990 and wasn’t truly reliable as a star sidekick until 1991.

Yeah. That's why ppl shouldn't take that seriously. And they might not even watch the games. Pippen wasn't the Pippen that we knew from the championship run. And the Bulls team did suck. It was like they couldn't do anything without MJ. I'm sure LeBron fans or any superstar fans know what it's like when a star player would pass it to their role players who are wide open and they could miss the shot.

That's what happened in 88 against the Pistons. They couldn't buy a bucket. The Piston's defense was mostly all on MJ. And ppl that did say, "MJ didn't pass!" didn't watch the games. He did. MJ was double/triple team. The role players had good looks. But they weren't good enough.

Pippen started to be good with the jumper in 91. It was bad. MJ averaged 36.3 ppg in the POs. His next highest scorer was Sam Vincent who average 10.2 ppg on 37% shooting. Pippen 10 ppg, but he was a rookie. It's amazing that the bulls to 50 wins that year. The cast of the Bulls in the 80s was bad. Pippen and Grant developed tho. And Paxson got better at his shot. MJ started to trust them more too.

[plowking]

Whether he was top five or not during that window, he definitely received a lot of praise for being top five from basically 1992-1998.


Anonymous coaches' poll from 1994-
•Best one-on-one defender: Bull forward Scottie Pippen (six votes) edged Spur forward Dennis Rodman (four). Olajuwon, Blaylock and Sonic guard Gary Payton (two votes each) were the only other players chosen by more than one coach. "Rodman used to be the guy. but he's slipped—he doesn't like to go too far from the basket anymore," says a Western coach, I think Pippen can disrupt more than Rodman."

•Player you would pay to see: Barkley, Olajuwon and Pippen tied with four votes each. O'Neal, with two votes, was the only other player with more than one.

Finally, it's worth noting that Pippen was the only player to receive at least one vote in five categories—last shot, starting a franchise, best defender, best passer and player worth paying to see.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1994/02/28/the-nba


Going back as early as 1992
February 24, 1992-

He is 15th in the league in scoring. (Michael Jordan is first.) He is 34th in the league in rebounding. (Jordan is not in the top 40, which is as low as the rankings go.) He is 12th in the league in assists per game. (Jordan is 23rd.) He is 15th in the league in steals per game. (Jordan is sixth.) He is 34th in the league in blocked shots per game. (Jordan is 17th.) He is 35th in the league in field goal percentage. (Jordan is 16th.) His height is 6'7". (Jordan's is 6'6".) His weight is 210 pounds. (Jordan's is 198.) His age is 26. (Jordan's is 29.) The numbers do not lie. Scottie Pippen has become a very, very good player. (Very close—heart, be still—to Jordan.)

"You think about it, Scottie Pippen might just be the second-best all-around player in the league," Bill Walton, the broadcaster and former NBA All-Star, says. "Who's better, outside of Michael? Who does more things? Karl Malone, maybe. Maybe not."

https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/02/24/out-of-the-shadow-after-years-of-being-eclipsed-by-his-teammate-michael-jordan-the-chicago-bulls-scottie-pippen-has-stepped-into-the-limelight


February 03, 1992-
No, Wilkins is not as good an all-around player as Pippen—or Bird, for that matter—but he has averaged 28.6 points per game and, like Adams, has a high fun factor. Pippen's versatility mandates his inclusion on Si's roster, as does Rodman's big-time rebounding.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/02/03/the-nba

Bird on Pippen in 1998
“Michael Jordan played the mind game better than almost anyone. He really knew how to get inside people’s heads,” Bird wrote. “Plus, I believe he had the second best player in the league right next to him in Scottie Pippen. You take Michael off that team, and Scottie moves down to fifth. But when Michael was out there with him, they were the best two in the league."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bird_Watching/SoXikyW3S40C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Plus,+I+believe+he+had+the+second+best+player+i n+the+league+right+next+to+him+in+Scottie+Pippen.&pg=PT147&printsec=frontcover


During the 1996 Finals Dr. J said that the Bulls had "two of the three best American players" on the same team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z8mm3WUH7I#t=7m15s



Great research and post.

Its funny the people in here with agenda have completed skewed the question. Talks of all these years outside the ones mentioned just to hammer home a point. Yet the question is simple - in this particular time frame, was he top 5?

Based on advanced metrics, wins, impact, award standings, and then given your response - the evaluation of his peers and coaches around the league - that very much seemed the case. Or at least - bordering on it.

No one here is saying he had a higher peak than Barkley or DRob as an example, but was he potentially better than some players for a 3 year stretch given their decline? Yes.

[Baller789]

This fuming casual obviously lacks brain cells to acknowledge the truth. :confusedshrug:

So which one of the pre-Pippen Bulls were better than Pip's Blazers and Rockets? And were they better than those Jordanless Bulls with Pip?

[ImKobe]

Lol jordan only got farther once he started sharing the ball with his teammates, which also led his ppg numbers to drop as well. Then after years passed by, those renowned teammates were completely able to make the playoffs without him in 1994.

He averaged 33.7 ppg for a 3-Peat lol with a 41 ppg Finals to cap it off.

[1987_Lakers]

He averaged 33.7 ppg for a 3-Peat lol with a 41 ppg Finals to cap it off.

What did Kobe average in the finals?

[Bawkish]

He averaged 33.7 ppg for a 3-Peat lol with a 41 ppg Finals to cap it off.

That fuming casual obviously lacks brain cells to acknowledge the truth.

[Micku]

Lol jordan only got farther once he started sharing the ball with his teammates, which also led his ppg numbers to drop as well. Then after years passed by, those renowned teammates were completely able to make the playoffs without him in 1994.

He took as many shots in 92 as he did in 90. Which was 26 shots in 92, and 27 shots in 90. But he took 28 shots in 93. That was his third-highest ppg in the POs in his career with 35 ppg.

Maybe you are talking about the RS, but even then in his first 3peat, he averaged 31 on 24 shots 91-93. In 88-90, he averaged 34 on 24 shots.

It ain't that big of a difference. I think it's overblown that MJ was just a one-man show that just scored and defend. It wasn't like that. It's true he didn't trust his teammates as much, but they also got better. But let's not forget, you have to give credit to Phil Jackson and Tex Winter too. They made it sure they had more of an opportunity to succeed. And they tried harder on defense too.

[Axe]

So which one of the pre-Pippen Bulls were better than Pip's Blazers and Rockets? And were they better than those Jordanless Bulls with Pip?
Clueless casual spotted. Also can't stop following me in different threads.


He averaged 33.7 ppg for a 3-Peat lol with a 41 ppg Finals to cap it off.
I suggest you watch this video to see my point.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RqGDLV-do9c

[Axe]

He took as many shots in 92 as he did in 90. Which was 26 shots in 92, and 27 shots in 90. But he took 28 shots in 93. That was his third-highest ppg in the POs in his career with 35 ppg.

Maybe you are talking about the RS, but even then in his first 3peat, he averaged 31 on 24 shots 91-93. In 88-90, he averaged 34 on 24 shots.

It ain't that big of a difference. I think it's overblown that MJ was just a one-man show that just scored and defend. It wasn't like that. It's true he didn't trust his teammates as much, but they also got better. But let's not forget, you have to give credit to Phil Jackson and Tex Winter too. They made it sure they had more of an opportunity to succeed. And they tried harder on defense too.
No doubt he is the best scorer that the team had bt. But what i was trying to point out earlier was that he didn't score at least 60 in the playoffs anymore when his team got better. And the way the bulls were constructed, although he was a driving force behind their championships, they didn't rely on him for their entire success alone. Kinda like the kawhi raptors that still had a good rs after he left the team before. And ofc, without the zenmaster and winter, the bulls wouldn't be the way they are. The right pieces definitely make them a formidable team with good cohesiveness.

[ImKobe]

No doubt he is the best scorer that the team had bt. But what i was trying to point out earlier was that he didn't score at least 60 in the playoffs anymore when his team got better. And the way the bulls were constructed, although he was a driving force behind their championships, they didn't rely on him for their entire success alone. Kinda like the kawhi raptors that still had a good rs after he left the team before. And ofc, without the zenmaster and winter, the bulls wouldn't be the way they are. The right pieces definitely make them a formidable team with good cohesiveness.

He had 54 in the ECF and 55 in the Finals :oldlol: and averaged 15 more ppg than his 2nd option for the POs and 20 more ppg than his #2 in the Finals in '93. Still ended up being an MJ carry-job and not some 2 superstar run like you Bran stans make it out to be.

[Baller789]

Clueless casual spotted. Also can't stop following me in different threads.


Youre actually more casual than I am because you can't answer that question bec. your entire BS argument falls apart.

[Axe]

^^Meh stick to 4chan and reddit. It will definitely make you feel better since everyone here knows that you're a useless troll. :sleeping


He had 54 in the ECF and 55 in the Finals :oldlol: and averaged 15 more ppg than his 2nd option for the POs and 20 more ppg than his #2 in the Finals in '93. Still ended up being an MJ carry-job and not some 2 superstar run like you Bran stans make it out to be.
Yeah just like that, you always flame his teammate just because he didn't post a lot of significant numbers on the offensive end. :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

No way was Scottie Pippen better than Patrick Ewing. Ewing beat him head to head in 94 and was a lot better in that series and got his team to the Finals.

If Jordan + Ewing were on the same team, shit they'd win probably 7-8+ titles in a row, likely starting in the late 80s frankly (bye bye Pistons).

[Micku]

I suggest you watch this video to see my point.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RqGDLV-do9c

I seen that video and that goes against what you were saying.
You said:


Lol jordan only got farther once he started sharing the ball with his teammates, which also led his ppg numbers to drop as well. Then after years passed by, those renowned teammates were completely able to make the playoffs without him in 1994.

Thinking Basketball said at the end:

first, they affirm that jordan's supporting cast radically improved during their title-winning seasons, not necessarily Michael himself.
He mentioned MJ looked superhuman before the Bulls started to win their rings, but he just needed the right cast around him to do it. In 89, they were -20 when MJ off the court and plus 4 when MJ was on the court. That's a +24 difference.

In 88, it was a 4 point difference.

You can see how his teammates were better when they were title contenders. With Pippen becoming an all-star and all-nba caliber, and the coaching staff, they had a nice system and culture. But once they got better, the overall team got better. But during the 80s, it was rough. Doug Collins and MJ were frustrated about that haha. If you saw the games, you'll definitely see what they were talking about.



“Michael scores 46 points, and people say he’s not sharing enough of the offense. Now he takes eight shots and you tell him he’s the highest-priced decoy in the game.

“Is that fair?”

Jordan sure didn’t think so.

He made a conscious effort, he said, to involve his teammates in the offense, what with the Pistons putting everybody but their trainer on him when he touched the ball.

“Why should I take the shots if they’re double-teaming me, triple-teaming me, sometimes even putting four guys on me?” Jordan asked. “Didn’t we still get good shots?”

Yes, Michael.

“Well, did we hit ‘em?”

No, Michael.

“That’s the whole story,” Jordan said. “We gotta hit ‘em.”

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-01-sp-1414-story.html

The Bulls shots didn't fall down. They weren't good shooters or scorers then to take the load off of MJ. You could argue with the triangle system, it maximizes the talent of the team tho. At the same time, they got better.

Bottom line, at least for me, it wasn't necessary that MJ didn't trust or pass to his teammates. There were definitely times when he did a Kobe and took a few tough shots instead of passing it, but it was never as bad as Kobe at his worse. He did pass. And the Pippen, Armstrong, Grant, Paxson were open. Wide open. They just didn't knock it down. The Pistons ganged up on MJ and he saw multiple double teams, triple teams, nearly every time he drive. They even double team him from half court. They dared the other guys to score.

They couldn't do that with the 91 and onwards Bulls team. And it's not just because MJ "trusted" his teammates. It's that they could finally hit a shot and provide enough scoring without MJ.

[ImKobe]

Yeah just like that, you always flame his teammate just because he didn't post a lot of significant numbers on the offensive end. :oldlol:

Ok, but you guys flame AD for "only" averaging 23 ppg on 60%TS while being by far the best defensive player in these Playoffs and Bran put up 2 more points per game while chucking them out of 4th quarters yet it's all AD's fault lol.

Jordan was also a great defender. Jordan also carried the offense. This thread is about creating a narrative where Pippen supposedly was this top 5 superstar who was an equal with players like Shaq and Barkley. Stop the cap.

[warriorfan]

2011 was when a 26-year old James made to the Finals. What did 26-year old Jordan do? Got dismissed in the 2nd round.

As for Wade, he wasn't "that guy". You know who was "that guy"? Dirk. :violin:

AGAIN, 1-9. :kobe:

if you use age excuse for lebron at 26 then it asterisks out his 2012 chip because both westbrook and durant were 22 and 23

[Axe]

Ok, but you guys flame AD for "only" averaging 23 ppg on 60%TS while being by far the best defensive player in these Playoffs and Bran put up 2 more points per game while chucking them out of 4th quarters yet it's all AD's fault lol.
Lmao suddenly this topic turns into bran/ad scapegoating. :lol

So have you figured out who played with injury between those two?


Jordan was also a great defender. Jordan also carried the offense. This thread is about creating a narrative where Pippen supposedly was this top 5 superstar who was an equal with players like Shaq and Barkley. Stop the cap.
That's a fair take but op didn't say he was a top 5 player on par with likes of shaq or barkley. He was asking if he was a top 5 during the mid of 90s while jordan was gone. :confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

1-9 is such a dumb narrative anyway, lol, like no one actually cares about that but about 9 mental cases on this forum, lol.

No one wants to see an athlete just come into a league and win and dominate with no struggle. You're supposed to taste some losses early in your career and no one is gonna blame Jordan for not winning against loaded Celtics teams when he had a crap supporting cast. The 63 point game speaks for itself.

The fact that the Bulls were a shit franchise and Jordan didn't have an All-Star team handed to him and had to lose early in his younger days if anything only builds his popularity. People love that kind of story, it's relatable, it's something you can aspire to. Same with frankly the Nike stuff, people love to now mythologize the fact that Nike was a nothing company in the basketball world before Jordan got there and he built it into the leading powerhouse and pop culture phenomenon that continues to this day. It wouldn't be a great story if he just joined Nike and they were already the no.1 basketball sneaker brand.

"I just ran off to an All-Star team to collude and win titles" is stuff that the general public doesn't like.

The point is once the Bulls got over the hump, they were damn near unbeatable and that's all anyone really cares about.

No one cares if you lose in your first few years in a team sport. Frankly you're kinda supposed to. It's about what you do once you reach your prime years.

[Axe]

I seen that video and that goes against what you were saying.
You said:


Thinking Basketball said at the end:

He mentioned MJ looked superhuman before the Bulls started to win their rings, but he just needed the right cast around him to do it. In 89, they were -20 when MJ off the court and plus 4 when MJ was on the court. That's a +24 difference.

In 88, it was a 4 point difference.

You can see how his teammates were better when they were title contenders. With Pippen becoming an all-star and all-nba caliber, and the coaching staff, they had a nice system and culture. But once they got better, the overall team got better. But during the 80s, it was rough. Doug Collins and MJ were frustrated about that haha. If you saw the games, you'll definitely see what they were talking about.


https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-01-sp-1414-story.html

The Bulls shots didn't fall down. They weren't good shooters or scorers then to take the load off of MJ. You could argue with the triangle system, it maximizes the talent of the team tho. At the same time, they got better.

Bottom line, at least for me, it wasn't necessary that MJ didn't trust or pass to his teammates. There were definitely times when he did a Kobe and took a few tough shots instead of passing it, but it was never as bad as Kobe at his worse. He did pass. And the Pippen, Armstrong, Grant, Paxson were open. Wide open. They just didn't knock it down. The Pistons ganged up on MJ and he saw multiple double teams, triple teams, nearly every time he drive. They even double team him from half court. They dared the other guys to score.

They couldn't do that with the 91 and onwards Bulls team. And it's not just because MJ "trusted" his teammates. It's that they could finally hit a shot and provide enough scoring without MJ.
I don't disagree with you but i think i didn't clarify my point enough earlier. I read phil's book 'eleven rings' bt and he was telling jordan to distribute the ball better instead of thinking how many points he should average in each game. And to be fair to him, he at least did comply to it.

[warriorfan]

Also needs to be acknowledged that a big reason why scottie could be so great at D is he played with the best offensive player of all time. It’s a lot easier when you can dedicate such a large focus to D and not worry about both sides of the ball because you know MJ is going to come through every time.

Scottie was one of those guys where while he was of course athletic he didn’t have much of an offensive game. He would rattle in a three pointer or two, maybe some hustle points off an offensive board, few layups cutting to the basket, some easy transition buckets, and end up with a sleepy 20. He is a lot like LeBron in this regard as he has a similar M.O. Scottie wasn’t a guy creating his own shot or taking over at the end of the game in tight half court sets. That wasn’t his game, then it was MJ time.

Scottie was in the perfect situation with the Bulls. If he played out his career on any other organization he would be looked at as a completely different player.


The trolls can say that MJ needed scottie (which is obviously not true), but the reality is that Scottie definitely needed MJ.

[Bawkish]

I don't disagree with you but i think i didn't clarify my point enough earlier. I read phil's book 'eleven rings' bt and he was telling jordan to distribute the ball better instead of thinking how many points he should average in each game. And to be fair to him, he at least did comply to it.

Looks like you're confused, so what's basically your point?

[Axe]

^^Another clueless casual spotted.

[Baller789]

^^Another clueless casual spotted.

Perhaps instead of impulsively vomitting useless ad hominems, may I suggest you answer legit questions instead of dodging them.

[Axe]

:sleeping

[ImKobe]

That's a fair take but op didn't say he was a top 5 player on par with likes of shaq or barkley. He was asking if he was a top 5 during the mid of 90s while jordan was gone. :confusedshrug:

You'd kinda have to because Hakeem, Ewing, D-Rob & even Malone are locks for top 4 based on RS + Playoffs. You can make the games played argument against Barkley but he played only 7 less than Pip who missed 10 himself, and the Suns were below .500 (8 - 9 without Barkley, Bulls were 4 - 6 without Pip so both 1 game below .500 without their guy) with Barkley in those games but still finished with 56 wins (with a much better SRS/Net Rating and they had the #1 offense), and he was much better than Pippen in the POs.

Shaq put up ridiculous numbers in the RS. He carried that Magic team to 50 wins and they had better SRS & Net Rating numbers than the Bulls but the Bulls had a "fluke" 55-win season in terms of winning 20 out of 22 games decided by 6 pts or less, so they were actually a rather mediocre team in terms of their +/- and their offense but had good fortune down the stretch of games, kind of similar to what you saw with the Miami Heat in the RS this year.

It's a tough argument to make. We know what Pippen was as a #2 option and we saw him as the "#1" option. There wasn't much of a gap in his production. He couldn't increase his scoring volume much even without Jordan being there. The offense of the team overall cratered. He was essentially the same player.

[Bawkish]

^^Another clueless casual spotted.

Looks like you are the one confused casual here

[warriorfan]

Looks like you are the one confused casual here

pro tip homies, throw him on the ignore list and call it a day.

you won’t be missing much. lol

[Baller789]

You'd kinda have to because Hakeem, Ewing, D-Rob & even Malone are locks for top 4 based on RS + Playoffs. You can make the games played argument against Barkley but he played only 7 less than Pip who missed 10 himself, and the Suns were below .500 (8 - 9 without Barkley, Bulls were 4 - 6 without Pip so both 1 game below .500 without their guy) with Barkley in those games but still finished with 56 wins (with a much better SRS/Net Rating and they had the #1 offense), and he was much better than Pippen in the POs.

Shaq put up ridiculous numbers in the RS. He carried that Magic team to 50 wins and they had better SRS & Net Rating numbers than the Bulls but the Bulls had a "fluke" 55-win season in terms of winning 20 out of 22 games decided by 6 pts or less, so they were actually a rather mediocre team in terms of their +/- and their offense but had good fortune down the stretch of games, kind of similar to what you saw with the Miami Heat in the RS this year.

It's a tough argument to make. We know what Pippen was as a #2 option and we saw him as the "#1" option. There wasn't much of a gap in his production. He couldn't increase his scoring volume much even without Jordan being there. The offense cratered. He was essentially the same player.

Pip just wasn't THAT GUY.



His offense isn't elite enough to consistently be a one seed as the main scorer, ergo he's the GOAT sidekick.

Let's not make this more than it actually is. At best he probably could take a loaded team to the finals once, like CP3, and have 2nd and 3rd round exits left and right.

[Axe]

Crackhead fan on suicide watch because he's still waiting for the first day of next month. Poor fella. :(


:cry:
Says the whiny bitch who literally can't stop crying about lebron fans itb. :roll:

[Baller789]

Looks like you are the one confused casual here

Axe is probably the most dishonest poster here. He always argues in bad faith and is a closet Bronie.

At least the other Bronies are straight up about it. :oldlol:

[Bawkish]

pro tip homies, throw him on the ignore list and call it a day.

you won’t be missing much. lol

dude's similar to Kyrie, and im not talking about basketball skills

[Axe]

You'd kinda have to because Hakeem, Ewing, D-Rob & even Malone are locks for top 4 based on RS + Playoffs. You can make the games played argument against Barkley but he played only 7 less than Pip who missed 10 himself, and the Suns were below .500 (8 - 9 without Barkley, Bulls were 4 - 6 without Pip so both 1 game below .500 without their guy) with Barkley in those games but still finished with 56 wins (with a much better SRS/Net Rating and they had the #1 offense), and he was much better than Pippen in the POs.

Shaq put up ridiculous numbers in the RS. He carried that Magic team to 50 wins and they had better SRS & Net Rating numbers than the Bulls but the Bulls had a "fluke" 55-win season in terms of winning 20 out of 22 games decided by 6 pts or less, so they were actually a rather mediocre team in terms of their +/- and their offense but had good fortune down the stretch of games, kind of similar to what you saw with the Miami Heat in the RS this year.

It's a tough argument to make. We know what Pippen was as a #2 option and we saw him as the "#1" option. There wasn't much of a gap in his production. He couldn't increase his scoring volume much even without Jordan being there. The offense of the team overall cratered. He was essentially the same player.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTU6cQJByIvxuHKGhMCtDsjlc2Ny5Ejl QBv_g&usqp=CAU

Lol he didn't thrive offensively like those players above but that doesn't mean he isn't valuable to his team. At least he was there to avoid the bulls from rebuilding the first time jordan 'retired'. :confusedshrug:

[Axe]

:blah
Says the 4chan and reddit addict. What a sore loser. :lol

Anyway here's your attention, weirdo. :yaohappy:

https://media.tenor.com/KxS34Ujcq-cAAAAC/dog-funny.gif

[Micku]

I don't disagree with you but i think i didn't clarify my point enough earlier. I read phil's book 'eleven rings' bt and he was telling jordan to distribute the ball better instead of thinking how many points he should average in each game. And to be fair to him, he at least did comply to it.

Oh yeah. Phil Jackson did hamper home for MJ to trust more in his teammates and pass it to them instead of taking some of the tough shots for sure. He mentioned that he would sometimes try to do everything himself because he wanted that win so badly.

I do think that MJ incorporate his scoring with passing the ball more effectively as time went on, but ppl do overblown it in the 80s. I suspect it was because they saw Magic and Bird were winning and thought that's the style you have to win as. It was a miracle that the Bulls were that good. He did pass it to them in the 80s. They weren't ready yet. The team wasn't good enough. They didn't need that much evidently. They didn't have the talent that the Pistons, Celts, Lakers, Portland had. I think the Bulls just had everything happen at once with them with the coaching and teammates developing into better players.

Onwards to Pippen being a top 5 player, I think he had a case for it in 94. I just don't think so because I don't think he was better than Ewing. I don't think he has a case in 95. He played great in 94 without MJ. We saw he could be the best player on a playoff team of his own. Took the Knicks to seven games. Great all-around player. Probably the best after MJ in the 90s. Grant Hill was probably the better version of Pippen, but injuries got in the way.

[Baller789]

Says the 4chan and reddit addict. What a sore loser. :lol

Anyway here's your attention, weirdo. :yaohappy:

https://media.tenor.com/KxS34Ujcq-cAAAAC/dog-funny.gif

Even with Axe's reply to ImKobe is intellectually dishonest. Nowhere did IMKobe say Pip wasn't valuable to the team.

And yet here is Axe making another strawman argument.

Clownworld.

[ImKobe]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTU6cQJByIvxuHKGhMCtDsjlc2Ny5Ejl QBv_g&usqp=CAU

Lol he didn't thrive offensively like those players above but that doesn't mean he isn't valuable to his team. At least he was there to avoid the bulls from rebuilding the first time jordan 'retired'.

Again, this is stupid. Look at the gap in their scoring while all the other stats are pretty damn close. So Jordan carried the scoring load while also doing 90% of what Pippen did on defense... and then we got guys here arguing for Pippen being anywhere near MJ in contributing to wins like he was prime Wade or AD. Stop it.

Pippen was a great #2. That's it. There was no 1a/1b situation ever with these two like we had with Shaq & Kobe. We don't have to diminish Jordan's greatness by making Pippen out to be someone he was clearly not.

[Bawkish]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTU6cQJByIvxuHKGhMCtDsjlc2Ny5Ejl QBv_g&usqp=CAU

Lol he didn't thrive offensively like those players above but that doesn't mean he isn't valuable to his team. At least he was there to avoid the bulls from rebuilding the first time jordan 'retired'.

The Bulls FO considered trading him for Shawn Kemp around that time

He was obviously on a "rebuilding process" after MJ retired

[Baller789]

Again, this is stupid. Look at the gap in their scoring while all the other stats are pretty damn close. So Jordan carried the scoring load while also doing 90% of what Pippen did on defense... and then we got guys here arguing for Pippen being anywhere near MJ in contributing to wins like he was prime Wade or AD. Stop it.

Thats Axe for you.

Gets triggerred pretty easily too.

[Axe]

:cry:
This bitch just literally whining about what other users post because she really couldn't contribute anything insightful. Poor fella. :(

[warriorfan]

Again, this is stupid. Look at the gap in their scoring while all the other stats are pretty damn close. So Jordan carried the scoring load while also doing 90% of what Pippen did on defense... and then we got guys here arguing for Pippen being anywhere near MJ in contributing to wins like he was prime Wade or AD. Stop it.

Pippen was a great #2. That's it. There was no 1a/1b situation ever with these two like we had with Shaq & Kobe. We don't have to diminish Jordan's greatness by making Pippen out to be someone he was clearly not.

Yeah, those stats reinforce everything we have been talking about. lol

Major backfire.

[Axe]

Again, this is stupid. Look at the gap in their scoring while all the other stats are pretty damn close. So Jordan carried the scoring load while also doing 90% of what Pippen did on defense... and then we got guys here arguing for Pippen being anywhere near MJ in contributing to wins like he was prime Wade or AD. Stop it.
Like i said, your worshipping always have to do with scoring. Lmao.


Pippen was a great #2. That's it. There was no 1a/1b situation ever with these two like we had with Shaq & Kobe. We don't have to diminish Jordan's greatness by making Pippen out to be someone he was clearly not.
Never said anything like that. Doesn't change the fact that he was the most successful player in the 90s tho, at least in terms of playoffs runs.

[Axe]

The Bulls FO considered trading him for Shawn Kemp around that time

He was obviously on a "rebuilding process" after MJ retired
But jordan stated he wouldn't come back on the bulls in 1995 if he wasn't on the team anymore. So...

[Micku]

Pip just wasn't THAT GUY.



His offense isn't elite enough to consistently be a one seed as the main scorer, ergo he's the GOAT sidekick.

Let's not make this more than it actually is. At best he probably could take a loaded team to the finals once, like CP3, and have 2nd and 3rd round exits left and right.

You could build a championship-contending team around Pippen. But imo, he isn't a top 5 choice in the 90s. Haha

His ability to score is sus for sure. I think it could be hard for him to construct a team around him like that, but it's doable. They have to be talented. It's definitely preferred to get a bucket-getter type of player with him. Give him a Mitch Richmond or Glen Rice. He just wouldn't be a leading scorer. lol Maybe even an Eddie Jones.

But the Portland team in 00 with a peak Pippen would be interesting for sure.

[Baller789]

You could build a championship-contending team around Pippen. But imo, he isn't a top 5 choice in the 90s. Haha

His ability to score is sus for sure. I think it could be hard for him to construct a team around him like that, but it's doable. They have to be talented. It's definitely preferred to get a bucket-getter type of player with him. Give him a Mitch Richmond or Glen Rice. Maybe even an Eddie Jones.

But the Portland team in 00 with a peak Pippen would be interesting for sure.

I don't think an Eddie Jones type would be enough. The team has to be built much like a LBJ team. He'll need a prime Drexler and yes, Richmond I think.

Surrounded by shooters and with an offensive weapon as a teammate in the clutch.

[Baller789]

Yeah, those stats reinforce everything we have been talking about. lol

Major backfire.

Yup. Thick-faced Axe simply wouldn't admit it.

Has no shame whatsoever.

[Axe]

^^Keep barking like an idiot, my bitch.


Oh yeah. Phil Jackson did hamper home for MJ to trust more in his teammates and pass it to them instead of taking some of the tough shots for sure. He mentioned that he would sometimes try to do everything himself because he wanted that win so badly.

I do think that MJ incorporate his scoring with passing the ball more effectively as time went on, but ppl do overblown it in the 80s. I suspect it was because they saw Magic and Bird were winning and thought that's the style you have to win as. It was a miracle that the Bulls were that good. He did pass it to them in the 80s. They weren't ready yet. The team wasn't good enough. They didn't need that much evidently. They didn't have the talent that the Pistons, Celts, Lakers, Portland had. I think the Bulls just had everything happen at once with them with the coaching and teammates developing into better players.

Onwards to Pippen being a top 5 player, I think he had a case for it in 94. I just don't think so because I don't think he was better than Ewing. I don't think he has a case in 95. He played great in 94 without MJ. We saw he could be the best player on a playoff team of his own. Took the Knicks to seven games. Great all-around player. Probably the best after MJ in the 90s. Grant Hill was probably the better version of Pippen, but injuries got in the way.
Yeah, don't have any problems if he's not top 5. At least top 10 would be much accurate. It's just impressive that despite being average on offense, the bulls still found a way to have a winning season in 1994 under his leadership and not dip down significantly in the standings. Other teams would have been in lottery if they lost their primary options for seasons but that was never the case for the bulls at all.

[warriorfan]

You could build a championship-contending team around Pippen. But imo, he isn't a top 5 choice in the 90s. Haha

His ability to score is sus for sure. I think it could be hard for him to construct a team around him like that, but it's doable. They have to be talented. It's definitely preferred to get a bucket-getter type of player with him. Give him a Mitch Richmond or Glen Rice. Maybe even an Eddie Jones.

But the Portland team in 00 with a peak Pippen would be interesting for sure.

It would still be a long shot. The only guaranteed ring he would get with no Jordan is if he was in a 2004 Detroit type situation where he would replace Tayshaun Prince.

[Bawkish]

But jordan stated he wouldn't come back on the bulls in 1995 if he wasn't on the team anymore. So...

Your confused again

You said Pip kept the team from rebuilding until MJ "returned". MJ saved his neck by saying he won't come back if the core gets dismantled. Pip has got nothing to do to maintain the status quo since he himself is on the trading block

[Axe]

Your confused again

You said Pip kept the team from rebuilding until MJ "returned". MJ saved his neck by saying he won't come back if the core gets dismantled. Pip has got nothing to do to maintain the status quo since he himself is on the trading block
You're clearly trolling lmao. Trading block or not, he even used to say that there would be no michael jordan if not for scottie pippen.

[Baller789]

Your confused again

You said Pip kept the team from rebuilding until MJ "returned". MJ saved his neck by saying he won't come back if the core gets dismantled. Pip has got nothing to do to maintain the status quo since he himself is on the trading block

And Jordan was the main reason why Pip was staying in Chicago for so long.

[plowking]

What did Kobe average in the finals?

Notice how someone like ImKobe skips over posts like this.

Why?

Because the whole consistency/thesis of his argument would change based on whether he likes the player or not. The same logic when applied to his own favourite player - doesn't hold up.

There is only one group in here who has changed the goalposts - the ones who think Pippen apparently sucks.

[Bawkish]

You're clearly trolling lmao. Trading block or not, he even used to say that there would be no michael jordan if not for scottie pippen.

LMAO you clearly missed the point here

Im not even saying MJ can flourished without Pip, those two were like binded by destiny

Having said that, Pip was indebted to MJ. We can argue career stats wise but definitely not when roster management is concerned

[Axe]

LMAO you clearly missed the point here

Im not even saying MJ can flourished without Pip, those two were like binded by destiny

Having said that, Pip was indebted to MJ. We can argue career stats wise but definitely not when roster management is concerned
Ah roster management huh. So jerry krause was a bad or incompetent gm bt, is that what you are trying to point out here and that jordan had influence to keep them together?

[warriorfan]

Notice how someone like ImKobe skips over posts like this.

Why?

Because the whole consistency/thesis of his argument would change based on whether he likes the player or not. The same logic when applied to his own favourite player - doesn't hold up.

There is only one group in here who has changed the goalposts - the ones who think Pippen apparently sucks.

I don’t know man. Seems like from what I’ve read in this thread there has been thorough context added to everything with Scottie Pippen. Doing a lazy analysis of taking Kobes career Finals stats and not accounting for the fact that in his first series he was 21 years old and Jalen Rose admitting he injured Kobe Bryant on purpose….seems disingenuous to say the least.

Also in that tough break Finals for the 21 year old, he ended up coming back in game 4 and playing 47 minutes on a bum ankle and scoring 28 while playing amazing defense in a win to bring the series to 3-1, pretty much closing the door on the series.

[Bawkish]

Ah roster management huh. So jerry krause was a bad or incompetent gm bt, is that what you are trying to point out here and that jordan had influence to keep them together?

Krause has good and bad decisions.While he's responsible for getting the championship rosters, he's also responsible for dismantling them instantly

[Axe]

Krause has good and bad decisions.While he's responsible for getting the championship rosters, he's also responsible for dismantling them instantly
Well i could agree to that. Firing phil after they went on to win their sixth championship was sad. Even told him he doesn't care if the team went 82-0 in the succeeding season, just shouted that 'he's fukking gone' once and for all.

[Baller789]

Krause has good and bad decisions.While he's responsible for getting the championship rosters, he's also responsible for dismantling them instantly

If Krause had his way, the 2nd 3 peat would not have happened.

[ImKobe]

Notice how someone like ImKobe skips over posts like this.

Why?

Because the whole consistency/thesis of his argument would change based on whether he likes the player or not. The same logic when applied to his own favourite player - doesn't hold up.

There is only one group in here who has changed the goalposts - the ones who think Pippen apparently sucks.

I skip over the spam/troll posts which have 0 to do with the subject.


Pippen NEVER led a single series in scoring playing next to MJ and I don't think he ever even got close to it. '00 is Kobe's only sidekick ring and I've talked about it before, but even then Kobe was the closer and the best player on the floor in a Game 7. Even then he made game-winners & clutch FTs to ice games on the road. '00 Kobe reached heights that even prime Pippen couldn't in the biggest moments. The 2000 title run is the only run out of the 3 where Shaq averaged more points in the last 5 minutes of a close game (score +/- 5 in the 4th) and it was 4 ppg to 3.5 at that point. Fast forward to 2001 and Kobe averaged 3.1 to Shaq's 0.9 and Kobe was the best player in 3 out of 4 series in a title run. Pippen was NEVER better than Jordan in any series in his career.

If you don't see the difference in the dynamic between these two duos that's your problem.

[Lebron23]

Scottie Pippen averaged 20.9 points, 8.9 rebounds and 7.4 assists in 17 games in the NBA Finals between the 1990-91 and 1992-93 seasons.

Kobe Bryant averaged 22.0 points, 6.1 rebounds and 5.1 assists in 14 games in the NBA Finals between the 1999-00 and 2001-02 seasons.

[ImKobe]

Scottie Pippen averaged 20.9 points, 8.9 rebounds and 7.4 assists in 17 games in the NBA Finals between the 1990-91 and 1992-93 seasons.

Kobe Bryant averaged 22.0 points, 6.1 rebounds and 5.1 assists in 14 games in the NBA Finals between the 1999-00 and 2001-02 seasons.

Again, using the 1st quarter injury in 2000 to weigh down his averages to make your point is never going to work with people who know better. At 22 Kobe averaged 29.4/7.3/6.1 for a title run with 25/8/6 averages in the Finals.

Also

1999 first round

Pippen (age 33): 18.3 ppg 32.9%FG/44.8%TS
Kobe (age 20): 18.3 ppg 40.9%FG/50%TS

So Pippen coming off a 3-Peat was a worse scorer than a young Kobe, who started for the first year in his career.

2000 WCF

Pippen: 15.1 ppg 42.5%FG/54.1%TS
Kobe: 20.4 ppg 43.9%FG/55.2%TS

Also 25/11/7 4 blocks in Game 7 to Pippen's 12/10/3 in a historic choke job by the Blazers and Kobe beat Pippen 1 on 1 3 times in a row in crunch time to win the game.

Pippen never led the Bulls in scoring in any series with MJ. He averaged 25 ppg just once in a series in his career in the 1st rd against the Cavs in '94. With MJ his highest scoring series was 24.0 ppg to Jordan's 45 ppg in that same series in '92, and that was a 3-game sweep where he had 2 of his 3 total 30+ pt games in that 3-Peat and an 11 pt game to average it out.

He had 30+ points 3 times during that first 3-Peat and 0 in the 2nd. His Playoff points high through his entire Playoffs career was 37 points.

And you can't even give me the excuse of "MJ took all the shots! Pippen never had a chance to score more!" because in '93 Pippen had 0 30+ pt games in the Playoffs, and had 26 points in the 3OT game vs. Suns in the Finals, where he attempted 35 shots.

[plowking]

I don’t know man. Seems like from what I’ve read in this thread there has been thorough context added to everything with Scottie Pippen. Doing a lazy analysis of taking Kobes career Finals stats and not accounting for the fact that in his first series he was 21 years old and Jalen Rose admitting he injured Kobe Bryant on purpose….seems disingenuous to say the least.

He, like many others opposing, went off track first. That post was made more in jest - but it clearly points out that his reasoning/logic would change completely when its a player he likes. The funny thing - while he has gone off track and mentioned series for Pippen outside of the 3 years in question - he doesn't realise that Pippen was legitimately injured in the series he cites as massive negatives. But that context is not applied for Pippen - yet it is for Kobe.


Also in that tough break Finals for the 21 year old, he ended up coming back in game 4 and playing 47 minutes on a bum ankle and scoring 28 while playing amazing defense in a win to bring the series to 3-1, pretty much closing the door on the series.

Again - I don't care. Kobe is great. So is Pippen. But he can't maintain consistency as it refutes his entire argument.

Facts are - Pippen in those 3 years was:

- All NBA First team all 3 years
- Top 3 in MVP one year
- Had a PER in the top 4-7 range those years
- Was voted by his peers/coaches to be one of the more impactful/top 5 ish type players, and only one that received a vote in all categories.
- Led his team to 55 and 47 wins as a first option. Could have been more if not for injuries.
- All NBA Defensive First team all years.
- Was top 8 in scoring the year they went to 55 wins.

These are the facts under the confines of the question.
So he was top 5 in MVP voting, the advanced stats support him being in or around top 5, he was in the all nba first team all 3 years, same as defensive team, and the analysis by his peers and coaches supported him being right there. So eye test, analytical, and accolades, as well as wins and team performance all pointed towards top 5.

[GimmeThat]

top 5 performer

[John8204]

I'd say top ten

Reggie, Ewing, Payton, Robinson, Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Stockton, Malone, and Barkley. Pippen can fit in that group but top five is a stretch.

[Axe]

He, like many others opposing, went off track first. That post was made more in jest - but it clearly points out that his reasoning/logic would change completely when its a player he likes. The funny thing - while he has gone off track and mentioned series for Pippen outside of the 3 years in question - he doesn't realise that Pippen was legitimately injured in the series he cites as massive negatives. But that context is not applied for Pippen - yet it is for Kobe.



Again - I don't care. Kobe is great. So is Pippen. But he can't maintain consistency as it refutes his entire argument.

Facts are - Pippen in those 3 years was:

- All NBA First team all 3 years
- Top 3 in MVP one year
- Had a PER in the top 4-7 range those years
- Was voted by his peers/coaches to be one of the more impactful/top 5 ish type players, and only one that received a vote in all categories.
- Led his team to 55 and 47 wins as a first option. Could have been more if not for injuries.
- All NBA Defensive First team all years.
- Was top 8 in scoring the year they went to 55 wins.

These are the facts under the confines of the question.
So he was top 5 in MVP voting, the advanced stats support him being in or around top 5, he was in the all nba first team all 3 years, same as defensive team, and the analysis by his peers and coaches supported him being right there. So eye test, analytical, and accolades, as well as wins and team performance all pointed towards top 5.
Very astute observation.

He also does this towards current players also, namely tatum and ingraham. He's always been critical of the former but the latter? It's as if the guy is a legitimate star who's on par with the renowned superstars when he isn't at all. His biasedness is always apparent.

[3ba11]

Kobe is great. So is Pippen.






Kobe = franchise player and cornerstone like Barkley or Luka

Pippen = supplementary player like Klay


^^^ that's based on their actual performance and stats, but the winning spotlight inflated Pippen to media accolade.

Pippen was NEVER a franchise player or cornerstone like Kobe or Karl Malone - he was clearly levels below as a secondary producer and supplementary player like Draymond.

Pippen had a one-off after inheriting a dynasty and cratered the team in Year 2, which can't be compared to franchise players that carry franchises for decades... Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention quickly due to lack of talent, which is what we saw in 1995.

[ImKobe]

He, like many others opposing, went off track first. That post was made more in jest - but it clearly points out that his reasoning/logic would change completely when its a player he likes. The funny thing - while he has gone off track and mentioned series for Pippen outside of the 3 years in question - he doesn't realise that Pippen was legitimately injured in the series he cites as massive negatives. But that context is not applied for Pippen - yet it is for Kobe.



Again - I don't care. Kobe is great. So is Pippen. But he can't maintain consistency as it refutes his entire argument.

Facts are - Pippen in those 3 years was:

- All NBA First team all 3 years
- Top 3 in MVP one year
- Had a PER in the top 4-7 range those years
- Was voted by his peers/coaches to be one of the more impactful/top 5 ish type players, and only one that received a vote in all categories.
- Led his team to 55 and 47 wins as a first option. Could have been more if not for injuries.
- All NBA Defensive First team all years.
- Was top 8 in scoring the year they went to 55 wins.

These are the facts under the confines of the question.
So he was top 5 in MVP voting, the advanced stats support him being in or around top 5, he was in the all nba first team all 3 years, same as defensive team, and the analysis by his peers and coaches supported him being right there. So eye test, analytical, and accolades, as well as wins and team performance all pointed towards top 5.

Top 5 over who

who are you taking him over

Make a top 5 list for '94

Did Pippen get injured in the 1st quarter and it reduced his series average by 5 ppg like it did for Kobe?

Kobe in 2000 WC 1st round averaged 27.8 ppg vs. the Sacramento Kings at 21 years old, that's higher than Pippen's average in any series of his career since Pippen peaked at 25.3 vs an injured Cavs team in the 1st round in '94. :kobe: Kobe had as many 30-pt games vs. Kings in the 2000 series as Pippen had for all of his 6 titles :lol