If Denver wins it all, where do you rank Jokic' greatness? And his peak?

[elementally morale]

I'm not just talking about 'being better' which is not directly linked to team achievements but also 'greater player to go won in history'.

I think Jokic is arguably greater than Dirk if Denver wins it all this year. Which foreigners is he not greater than? Hakeem is an obvious choice as is Tim Duncan if you want to count him as a foreigner. Who else? Giannis has 2 MVPs and a ring.... so that may be three. Dirk is a stretch but you can argue Jokic is still below Dirk at this pont greatnesswise. It would/should still catapult the Joker to a top 5 career as a foreigner.

If the question is different and we are asking prime or peak play, I have Jokic higher. I also think it is not necessarily the best question now because I strongly feel we haven't seen his peak yet. He has entered his prime 3 years ago but keeps improving. There is a great chance he will become even better.

So.

The question is two-fold:


1) Where would you rank Jokic on an all-time great player's list historically if Denver wins it all this year with the Joker as FMVP and MVP os the West playoffs? (greatness so far)

2) Where do you rank his so-far best year (this year)? How many player's you know who were better in any year of their careers? (peak so far)

[L.Kizzle]

Wherever you have Giannis, he's not far behind.

[theman93]

Top 20 probably

[Akeem34TheDream]

I think it's not smart to judge a player's historical ranking during his prime.

[elementally morale]

Wherever you have Giannis, he's not far behind.

I don't know where I have Giannis. Peak is somehow easier for me. And I don't have many peaks I'd rank ahead of Jokic this year. 2000 Shaq. 1991 Jordan. 1987 or so Magic. 1985 or so Bird. (The latter were not any better on defense than the Joker, so I'm not sure.) 1994ish Hakeem... maybe. Who else? Kareem in the 70s but I'm not old enough to have watched that. Same for Wilt. Some may argue LeBron's peak... well... okay you can get me convinced. But it's still a top 10 peak for Jokic pretty easily. On offense, a top 5 one.

Greatness is harder for me. E.g.: what difference does it make all time if Jokic has one ring or two rings? Overtaking Hakeem comes to mind... but if it works like that than Jokic should be close to top 10 right now, which I think not too many people would agree with.

[elementally morale]

I think it's not smart to judge a player's historical ranking during his prime.

I agree. Said so myself: it's not the best of questions. However, we can pretend his career end in July. Taken by aliens or whatever. I just wanted some input like a snapshot: where h ranks now in the eyes of some fans here. But I agee with you this not being the best of questions.

[tontoz]

Jokic is only 28 and the nuggets could be contenders for years. Their weakness is their bench which is pretty easy to strenthen. MJ won his first title at 28.

2 MVPs, 1 ring and an assumed FMVP is certainly a strong first half of a career. I thought he was underrated years ago. I remember getting into arguments a couple of years ago about him being better than Embiid and AD but i think most people accept by now that Jokic is better.

[elementally morale]

I remember getting into arguments a couple of years ago about him being better than Embiid and AD but i think most people accept by now that Jokic is better.

It was 4 years ago I argued them the best talents and being equal at the time. I was either right that time or I wasn't.

But I know what I was wrong about (never argued though, I just thought something that now I think was completely wrong). I predicted Embbid to become better in the end (never told this to anybody but that was my expectation). I was looking forward to seeing jokic not improving much compared to his 2019 self and that Embiid would indeed become a taller, better Hakeem. I was wrong on both accounts.

[tontoz]

It was 4 years ago I argued them the best talents and being equal at the time. I was either right that time or I wasn't.

But I know what I was wrong about (never argued though, I just thought something that now I think was completely wrong). I predicted Embbid to become better in the end (never told this to anybody but that was my expectation). I was looking forward to seeing jokic not improving much compared to his 2019 self and that Embiid would indeed become a taller, better Hakeem. I was wrong on both accounts.



Two things really elevated Jokic. First of all he became more aggressive looking to score. Then he lost weight. Those two together have elevated him to the best player in the league the last 3 years imo.

He used to be fat and too passive on offense. He is pretty skinny now relative to his frame and that has really helped him running the floor.

[elementally morale]

Two things really elevated Jokic. First of all he became more aggressive looking to score. Then he lost weight. Those two together have elevated him to the best player in the league the last 3 years imo.

He used to be fat and too passive on offense. He is pretty skinny now relative to his frame and that has really helped him running the floor.

I agree. He is by far the best player now. There s another area I think he improved: passing. He had all the passes in the book 4 years ago, too, but he know is a passing career highlight every other game. The last time I had this feeling was Magic. Then to a degree Nash but Nash wasn't as good as Jokic is now. As far as passing, I have 3 guys at the top: Magic, Bird and Jokic.

[plowking]

Wherever you have Giannis, he's not far behind.

This is probably the correct answer.

In reality Giannis and Joker are the non mainstream stars of this era/recent era. Giannis is a two time MVP, DPOY winner, as well as having the greatest finals performance ever with his 50 point game against the Suns. He won - and won in spectacular fashion, yet its far easier for us to remember a dull Durant championship, one where Kobe underperformed, or a standard Bron one. Why? These players have had a narrative around them since being in the league - Giannis and Jokic don't.

For me - he goes somehwhere in the top 12-20 players ever. You have to rate him behind Giannis as prime wise they are similar (GOAT level), but Giannis has achieved more. Both ahead of Dirk. Who is ahead of Durant, etc.

Peak play? He is ahead of Magic - does everything he does and better. Probably ahead of Bird too. He is a better player than Dirk too.

[FultzNationRISE]

I literally have him Top 5 ever already. But I dont care about things like team accomplishments. I rate guys by how valuable they are relative to other players in their era. Thats it. Thats my criterion.

Joker is utterly dominant and has been for a few years now. And he makes a huge impact in the playoffs, unlike regular season track meet MVPs like Giannis and Westbrook.

If you count playoff performance, and especially if you weight it even more heavily than the regular season as I do, hes light years ahead of those guys.

[FultzNationRISE]

This is probably the correct answer.

In reality Giannis and Joker are the non mainstream stars of this era/recent era. Giannis is a two time MVP, DPOY winner, as well as having the greatest finals performance ever with his 50 point game against the Suns. He won - and won in spectacular fashion, yet its far easier for us to remember a dull Durant championship, one where Kobe underperformed, or a standard Bron one. Why? These players have had a narrative around them since being in the league - Giannis and Jokic don't.

For me - he goes somehwhere in the top 12-20 players ever. You have to rate him behind Giannis as prime wise they are similar (GOAT level), but Giannis has achieved more. Both ahead of Dirk. Who is ahead of Durant, etc.

Peak play? He is ahead of Magic - does everything he does and better. Probably ahead of Bird too. He is a better player than Dirk too.

The Suns made the absolutely inexplicable decision that series not to “build the wall” and basically let Giannis feast on them relentlessly, which made no sense. His supporting cast was good but they werent good enough to say “lets keep them from shooting if it means giannis getting to the rim every time.” The Suns absolutely picked the wrong strategy, and weve seen the right strategy be effective in stopping Greek. He hasnt really proven to be unstoppable in the playoffs, the Suns just weirdly chose not to stop him. Hes had a couple really nice playoff series and a lot of underwhelming ones. Im not giving him “extra credit” because the team that played worst against him happened to be a finals opponent.

Across the board hes been far from a “playoff beast” in his career.

[elementally morale]

For me - he goes somehwhere in the top 12-20 players ever. You have to rate him behind Giannis as prime wise they are similar (GOAT level), but Giannis has achieved more. Both ahead of Dirk. Who is ahead of Durant, etc.

I'm a Jokic fan (folloiwng and rooting for Denver simply due to him) but a greatness level in the 12-20 range is something like Barkley or Karl Malone or david Robinson. I'm not sure the Joker is there yet but I have little doubt he will be. However: if you have Giannis higher he should be almost top 10 to you. I absolutely don't believe that. We can agree to disagree but for me that's way too high.



Peak play? He is ahead of Magic - does everything he does and better. Probably ahead of Bird too. He is a better player than Dirk too.


Well, it's tough. On the one hand it just 'sounds wrong' to put someone at a higher level than Magic or Bird. On the other hand, when I think about it, it's not that far fetched based on actual play.

I think I'd say the peak I've seen so far from Jokich is top 10 and if he wins it all this year he is top 20-25 all time. A bit higher than Dirk but lower than Barkley. For the time being. If he keeps up this level of play for 7-8 more years and has still another gear... I thnk he has... we shall just wait and see.

[elementally morale]

I literally have him Top 5 ever already. But I dont care about things like team accomplishments. I rate guys by how valuable they are relative to other players in their era. Thats it. Thats my criterion.


I understand this and I think your way of assessing it is 'the right way'. Remaining on the same track: I would give reular season MVP to the best player and I wouldn't care much about team accomplishments. But we know in reality it's not how it goes.

Let's just entertain the thought Jokic is top 5. Who are the other (maximum) 4 players for you ahead of him?

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
.... ???

Is this right?

[FultzNationRISE]

I understand this and I think your way of assessing it is 'the right way'. Remaining on the same track: I would give reular season MVP to the best player and I wouldn't care much about team accomplishments. But we know in reality it's not how it goes.

Let's just entertain the thought Jokic is top 5. Who are the other (maximum) 4 players for you ahead of him?

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
.... ???

Is this right?


I dont really worry too much about precise orders because the reality is there often isnt some objective difference in value between two players. Theres no way to truly measure who’s better between Magic and Bird. Youd have to invoke very arbitrary reasons to put one guy ahead of the other. It’s not a 1 on 1 sport. Stats dont tell the whole story. Team results dont tell the whole story. Theres no good way to prove who’s better between two guys on a similar level. Sometimes you gotta just say they have different styles and it depends on circumstance.

All I know if Lebron is BY FAR the greatest and most anatomically well endowed player in history, but after that there probably arent 4 players Id take over Jokic if I have a series to win.

[elementally morale]

I dont really worry too much about precise orders because the reality is there often isnt some objective difference in value between two players. Theres no way to truly measure who’s better between Magic and Bird. Youd have to invoke very arbitrary reasons to put one guy ahead of the other. It’s not a 1 on 1 sport. Stats dont tell the whole story. Team results dont tell the whole story. Theres no good way to prove who’s better between two guys on a similar level. Sometimes you gotta just say they have different styles and it depends on circumstance.

Agree wi this too, as I have tiers and never really argue about all-time lists. So it's not something that's important to me I just wanted to kill some time on the clock befor the game starts today (2:30 AM here).

I usually don't even comment on players who played all or most of their careers before I started watching 'live'. So even though I did get ti watch Kareem live, that was in the 80s and that's not Kareem's peak... so I usually leave him out. (Wilt and Russell and Oscar and dr. J, etc. I never spend any time discussing on. So if I want to put some tiers out there using players whose careers started post 1979-80 it would be something like this:

Jordan
______________

Magic
Bird
LeBron
______________

Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
_____________

The rest.

I think I have Jokic in that last tier... whoch may also include Curry. So top 10. Top 5? I'm a fan of Jokic and would love to think at some point he is top 5... but I'd also love to see him become even better. I think it is possible. He can improve on defense and could/should be looking for his shot a bit more. I think he has another level in him and I'd like to see that.

[plowking]

I'm a Jokic fan (folloiwng and rooting for Denver simply due to him) but a greatness level in the 12-20 range is something like Barkley or Karl Malone or david Robinson. I'm not sure the Joker is there yet but I have little doubt he will be. However: if you have Giannis higher he should be almost top 10 to you. I absolutely don't believe that. We can agree to disagree but for me that's way too high.



Why not though? His level of play, mixed in with the accolades says yes.

How many 2 time MVPs are there that have won a title as the best player on their team?

Just as a reference point - there is 14 guys that have won 2 or more MVPs. All of them are players you'd consider in the top 20 bar Steve Nash.

[elementally morale]

Why not though? His level of play, mixed in with the accolades says yes.

Being conservative, I guess. I also don't want to be the prisoner of the moment. But realistically, I'm sure I haven't seen more than 5 guys being better at basketball than Jokic.

Besides, it is rare that the player I find great plays on a team or in a system I like. For example I now for a fct MJ was the greatest I've seen, but I never liked Jordan. Rooted against the Bulls and MH all the time. I was a lot older when LeBron hit his prime so the level of hate I felt was lower, but I never enjoyed LeBron's teams' games or his game either (save for his forst 2-3 years on the Cavs). The last player I could root for and think he is or can be top 5 all-time was Magic. I could root for Kobe and I enjoyed his career a lot, bu I never thought of him as top 5 material). With Jokic and the Nuggets it's great. Nice basketball, all time talent, solid fanbase online.

[John8204]

1-2-3 - Wilt, KAJ, Bill
4-5-6 - Mikan, Moses, Hakeem
7-8-9 - Shaq, Robinson (Jokic)
10-11-12 - Reed, Thurmond, Ewing
13-14-15 - Hayes, Walton, Embiid

[StrongLurk]

Jokic is undeniably having one of the best three year stretches of all time, it's a huge shame that his side kick Jamal Murray has missed the 1st 2 years due to injury.

Jokic with a FMVP/Ring this year immediately vaults to top 20 all time. He is the best three level scorer and best passer in the league.

Jokic has been a superstar every playoff run he's been in. He's never been "stopped" before like Giannis has been a few times.

[bizil]

Well he vaults up the GOAT center charts for damn sure. A minimum of two MVP's, a ring, and redefining the center position as a package are things MOST of the top 10 centers don't have on their resume. From there, he's hands down the most skilled OFFENSIVE center of all time. I'm talking his scoring skillset and passing ability as a package. Even if you are talking about the best offensive center ever in general (regardless of actual skill), he's likely the best center of all time. I'm talking the scoring and passing ability as a package.

He's the premier triple double center of all time as well. He's ALREADY 6th all time in triple doubles among ALL PLAYERS! And by the time his career is over, he could VERY WELL be #1 all time in triple doubles! So when u add all this shit up, IF he wins a ring I think he's a top 7 center GOAT wise already. Cap, Russ, Wilt, Shaq, Dream, and Moses would be the only ones I would have over him at this point. He JUMPS over the guys like The Admiral, Ewing, Mikan, Reed, etc. But peak wise, he's looking like he's a top 5 center of all time. In the group with Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and Dream. What he brings to the table SUPERCEDES the other great centers who are more athletic, more physical, or better two way players!

[Carbine]

He's better than Barkley, Robinson and Ewing. That's all I know. You'd take him as a ball player and his career over all three of them.

#18ish overall sounds about right

[bizil]

The scary part about Joker is IF he stays healthy, his game is built to last for the long haul. From a STAIONARY POSITION or off a bounce or two, Bird and Joker are the most effective OFFENSIVE PLAYERS EVER! Similar to how Bird dominated the SF position in that same manner, Joker brought that same shit to the center spot. Great shooters from downtown, great in the midrange, great on the block, and are among the best passers to ever live.

[Dagoods]

Top 10 Center for sure.

He's a modern-day Bill Walton.
Bill Walton made Kareem beg for mercy.
Ironically, Joker is toying with LeBron!!!

[SATAN]

He's a below average defender and Jamal Murray carried him to a W last game.

Let's not turn a blind eye to this stuff...

[FultzNationRISE]

He's a below average defender and Jamal Murray carried him to a W last game.

Let's not turn a blind eye to this stuff...


Let's not turn a blind eye to the fact his career includes a game where a teammate played well?

:roll:

Thanks for the intelligent contribution.

[ILLsmak]

Hard to say cuz nba is super soft, injured and bummy. This is absolutely an awful era. They had the super team era then war era then it’s like super teams where 1/3 is injured or one is James harden etc. Stats are inflated. I’d love to see jokic match up vs 90s guys. He wouldn’t get the same stats but he would probably be as good and impactful.

My thoughts: jokic is really good. I think he’d get toasted vs mt Rushmore bigs cuz he’s just not that dude, but he’s a championship caliber leader and first ballot. As for him in the goat/top x debate, I’m not putting anyone up there right now.

Not jokic, not Giannis… it’s shame cuz there are good players and teams but the nba as a whole is a joooooke. All these broken down super teams. Sad.

I think w Chris Paul that phx comes out of west n I hate cp3. Something about how they were playing before he went down was intriguing to me.

-Smak

[elementally morale]

He's had an equal to or better than career than Barkley or Karl Malone at this point. At 27 that's not bad. He has time to win multiple rings and a 1 or 2 more MVPs.

(Had another subpar game today and it was still 30/14/13. And these are his bad games. It could've easily been a 40/15/15 game because he missed many shots he normally makes and Porter+Gordon missed lots of open looks.)

[plowking]

Hard to say cuz nba is super soft, injured and bummy. This is absolutely an awful era. They had the super team era then war era then it’s like super teams where 1/3 is injured or one is James harden etc. Stats are inflated. I’d love to see jokic match up vs 90s guys. He wouldn’t get the same stats but he would probably be as good and impactful.

My thoughts: jokic is really good. I think he’d get toasted vs mt Rushmore bigs cuz he’s just not that dude, but he’s a championship caliber leader and first ballot. As for him in the goat/top x debate, I’m not putting anyone up there right now.

Not jokic, not Giannis… it’s shame cuz there are good players and teams but the nba as a whole is a joooooke. All these broken down super teams. Sad.

I think w Chris Paul that phx comes out of west n I hate cp3. Something about how they were playing before he went down was intriguing to me.

-Smak

Nah.

He is even better in the 90s where the ball is played through him and he is on an island a lot more. His stats probably get slightly better.

And no - the NBA is at a point now where everyone can shoot and spread the floor. We've gone from thinking the NBA is in a hole with Bron exiting and KD leaving soon. Meanwhile Giannis, Jokic and the next potential lot are as talented if not more so than them.

The level below the superstars in the league is a step higher than it was the last 20 years. The gap has closed due to everyone being good at the 3 ball.