Is this the GOAT playoff run by Nikola Jokic?

[iamgine]

I mean...30ppg 13rpg 10apg on 70 TS%

No one else in history has that kind of impact.

[Spurs m8]

Won't Joker and Butler be a joy to watch...

2 leaders who you can actually respect in this league...rare these days

[Axe]

Duh.

[ILLsmak]

I mean...30ppg 13rpg 10apg on 70 TS%

No one else in history has that kind of impact.

go 2 bed

-Smak

[plowking]

go 2 bed

-Smak


Stop being a Jokic hater smak. This certainly is in contention for GOAT playoff run. Especially with the narrative built around it of him being pushed out of the MVP due to "NBA politics".

He essentially did to Davis what Hakeem did to Robinson.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yeah, it's up there. Not since Wilt has there been a center amass so many assists. A playmaking center: a protomodern archetype? Maybe we'll begin to see more of them in the future.

[Ass Dan]

it all comes so effortlessly out of the natural flow of the offense.

Jamal Murray
genius
KCP
genius
Bruce Brown
genius
Michael Malone
genius

this team is special

[HoopologyPhD]

Amazing team, you can see the chemistry in the video of them celebrating sweeping the L's

[tontoz]

His playoff TS isn't 70%. It's 62.3%. Great run no doubt.

[StrongLurk]

He needs a ring/FMVP to cap it off. But yes, he's pacing for GOAT level play.

[Overdrive]

Stop being a Jokic hater smak. This certainly is in contention for GOAT playoff run. Especially with the narrative built around it of him being pushed out of the MVP due to "NBA politics".

He essentially did to Davis what Hakeem did to Robinson.

Nah he did it to Embiid, without even directly playing him.

[Kblaze8855]

I suppose it comes down to if the decider chooses to acknowledge what has happened to numbers as the league has changed itself to the product it wants to put on tv.

Joker is obviously a legend but so were a lot of old guys we kinda pretend didn’t exist because their numbers couldn’t be compared 1 to 1 with the numbers we got used to for a good 25 years.

If we are gonna count Westbrooks 37/12/11 39/27/80% 5 game loss series the same as Birds 21/13/7 42/25/83% 6 game loss or look at Jimmy as better than 09 Kobe….be hard not to call Jokers run all time elite. Like top 5ish with some of the old ones we previously disregarded.

If it’s just a matter of the numbers being what they are Jordan leading a title team with 31/8/5 on 52% true shooting taking 26 shots a game isn’t too great. But we are really selective about when we acknowledge todays game being more likely to produce these epic numbers.

Everyone acknowledges it when we have multiple 70 point games, old guys doing numbers they didn’t used to, 6-7 30ppg guys, or a guy averages a triple double for 4 years while another guy does 32/9/8 but we get the “You can say it’s todays game but….” throwaway line of dismissal when it’s a player who’s numbers we are more prone to respect.

So in the end it’s just personal.

If you want context and all we introduce our own biases and make whoever we pick the most impressive usually through hypocritical means.

If numbers are numbers regardless of the era….it’s just a different discussion.

You pick a side and it changes the answer to this question.

[Carbine]

Yes, for number nerds.

Not even close for eye testers.

[1987_Lakers]

Yes, for number nerds.

Not even close for eye testers.

Your eye test told you Mitchell = Wade

[Kblaze8855]

Yes, for number nerds.

Not even close for eye testers.


I wouldn’t say it isn’t even close. Jokic is pretty ****ing ridiculous from an eye test pov as well. He’s making some absolutely bullshit shots, is one of the best passers ever regardless of position, is a bully inside…has just shy of wing handles despite being a 7 foot loaf of bread…he’s got touch around the basket, quick decision making and the aggression a great player needs.

Hes got it all other than eye popping athletic ability and the defensive issue that presents with his body type.

[FultzNationRISE]

I suppose it comes down to if the decider chooses to acknowledge what has happened to numbers as the league has changed itself to the product it wants to put on tv.

Joker is obviously a legend but so were a lot of old guys we kinda pretend didn’t exist because their numbers couldn’t be compared 1 to 1 with the numbers we got used to for a good 25 years.

If we are gonna count Westbrooks 37/12/11 39/27/80% 5 game loss series the same as Birds 21/13/7 42/25/83% 6 game loss or look at Jimmy as better than 09 Kobe….be hard not to call Jokers run all time elite. Like top 5ish with some of the old ones we previously disregarded.

If it’s just a matter of the numbers being what they are Jordan leading a title team with 31/8/5 on 52% true shooting taking 26 shots a game isn’t too great. But we are really selective about when we acknowledge todays game being more likely to produce these epic numbers.

Everyone acknowledges it when we have multiple 70 point games, old guys doing numbers they didn’t used to, 6-7 30ppg guys, or a guy averages a triple double for 4 years while another guy does 32/9/8 but we get the “You can say it’s todays game but….” throwaway line of dismissal when it’s a player who’s numbers we are more prone to respect.

So in the end it’s just personal.

If you want context and all we introduce our own biases and make whoever we pick the most impressive usually through hypocritical means.

If numbers are numbers regardless of the era….it’s just a different discussion.

You pick a side and it changes the answer to this question.

Coincidentally I think if you put Jokic in earlier eras he probably loses offense but gains defense. He’d have to battle against the Ewings, Mournings, DRobs etc instead of soft ass Ayton and AD. But at the same time, he guards dudes like that fairly well too, he just looks terrible against modern offenses that spread the whole floor out and make bigs chase them around the perimeter.

That said, we rightfully assume some bigs of yesterday would be proficient three point shooters from today. No doubt some of them would. Tho it’s hard to imagine any being BETTER than Jokic, since he’s already at a pretty high level and the only tier above him is basically elite shooters like Lillard, Booker, etc. Whereas we do know for a fact Jokic has footwork and touch around the basket comparable to any big from any era. So he’s the only guy we can say with certainty dominates from all three levels, PLUS hes the best passer ever.

So on logical grounds, if you take stats and team accomplishments out of it, theres still plenty of argument for him based on pure reason. Ofc you can make sound arguments for other guys too, but saying he’s the best center or having the best run does hold up to rational scrutiny IMO.

[tpols]

Well... we've never seen a guy that can pass like magic, shoot/score like Bird, and rebound like Moses. The only thing he's not elite at is defense but his offense and rebounding are so gamebreaking it doesn't matter...

This is the clutch dagger shot that got Denver the sweep last night.


https://youtu.be/8UFKXjEqFQ4

The **** you supposed to do about that?

[SouBeachTalents]

Well... we've never seen a guy that can pass like magic, shoot/score like Bird, and rebound like Moses. The only thing he's not elite at is defense but his offense and rebounding are so gamebreaking it doesn't matter...

This is the clutch dagger shot that got Denver the sweep last night.


https://youtu.be/3Rv1G8sT5FwL

The **** you supposed to do about that?
He hit like 4 or 5 shots like that during the series.

[Im Still Ballin]

I suppose it comes down to if the decider chooses to acknowledge what has happened to numbers as the league has changed itself to the product it wants to put on tv.

Joker is obviously a legend but so were a lot of old guys we kinda pretend didn’t exist because their numbers couldn’t be compared 1 to 1 with the numbers we got used to for a good 25 years.

If we are gonna count Westbrooks 37/12/11 39/27/80% 5 game loss series the same as Birds 21/13/7 42/25/83% 6 game loss or look at Jimmy as better than 09 Kobe….be hard not to call Jokers run all time elite. Like top 5ish with some of the old ones we previously disregarded.

If it’s just a matter of the numbers being what they are Jordan leading a title team with 31/8/5 on 52% true shooting taking 26 shots a game isn’t too great. But we are really selective about when we acknowledge todays game being more likely to produce these epic numbers.

Everyone acknowledges it when we have multiple 70 point games, old guys doing numbers they didn’t used to, 6-7 30ppg guys, or a guy averages a triple double for 4 years while another guy does 32/9/8 but we get the “You can say it’s todays game but….” throwaway line of dismissal when it’s a player who’s numbers we are more prone to respect.

So in the end it’s just personal.

If you want context and all we introduce our own biases and make whoever we pick the most impressive usually through hypocritical means.

If numbers are numbers regardless of the era….it’s just a different discussion.

You pick a side and it changes the answer to this question.

I agree.


Yes, for number nerds.

Not even close for eye testers.

I disagree. A lot of Jokic's impact cannot be seen in the basic box score. More than the significant majority of players. More advanced tracking cues us in on the value of his screening, passing, and active hands. He rates highly in screen assists, hockey assists, and deflections. He's also consistently led the league in touches and passes despite a low time of possession.

He's the connective tissue that brings it all together and makes it work.

[FultzNationRISE]

Yes, for number nerds.

Not even close for eye testers.


Perhaps your eye test needs glasses.

[Carbine]

There is a clear difference between him and Lebron second Cleveland stint playoff runs. Pick any Jordan first 3 peat runs. Hakeem.

Jamal Murray was their best player this series. How you gonna be the goat playoff run when you got outplayed by your teammate in the WCF? We are talking about GOAT standard here.



I love Jokic by the way, but you have to be realistic. Old ass Lebron did 28/10/10 this series on better efficiency than Jokic. Lebron would have done some crazy shit against this Nuggets squad if he were 31 yr old

[KNOW1EDGE]

If the Nuggets win the championship, it will be, IMO, the most impressive ring since Dirks Mavs in 2011.

[Kblaze8855]

Well... we've never seen a guy that can pass like magic, shoot/score like Bird, and rebound like Moses.



Thats where it gets tricky. He doesn’t exactly do any of those things. He can pass while stationary like anyone but most of the “Magic” was on the move. Largely for mobility reasons Jokic can’t be Magic. He’s closer to passing like Bird if everyone were spread out with wide passing lanes instead of all his highlights being in traffic and passing to bigs for quick dunks.

He also doesn’t really shoot like Bird…he just has percentages on his side which aren’t really the same thing. Bird shot worse from 3 than a number of people he was a better shooter than. Even in his time. It’s kinda like how Horford shoots better than Dirk from 3 and on more attempts. It doesn’t match the multi level shooting or the variety of shots. Jokic obviously has some “That didn’t even make sense” in him but not Birds whole floor “Can’t do anything about that” shot making. Bird was Kobe like in his unbalanced, seemingly random, “You can’t have worked on that” shot making but bigger.

And he definitely doesn’t rebound like Moses. If you put Moses out there vs teams playing 1 big and a wing at the 4 with another tweener at the 4 next to him his numbers would be quite different. Moses can get you 12-13 a game while playing next to Barkley vs other teams with 2-3 bigs. He can get you the numbers on the same team as Kevin Willis who got like 16 a game himself when Moses was gone.

Anyone who can rebound today should absolutely slaughter modern teams on the boards. You’re not playing Laimbeer and Rodman on the same team. Or Ewing and Oakley. Or Barkley and Moses or Moses and Willis…Shaq and Horace…Zo and LJ. Not that that was every team but it was how most teams were built.

These teams are built for spacing not pushing you around. The second true big really throws these things off.

That said what I really like is his hands while rebounding. Guys like him, Bird, Moses, and Hakeem who can get into position and softly get the ball tipped in are a handful. He must be so frustrating to play. Makes you play the whole possession. Can’t fall asleep on the box out.

Hes fundamentally sound as hell.

Hes as close as his body type will allow in the things you said but someone who could do all you said would barely be human.

[Im Still Ballin]

He's faced strong opposition, has an average supporting cast for a potential championship team, and has performed well above expectations.

All three playoff opponents were far better than their regular season records. Minnesota would've been closer to 50 wins with a healthy squad. Phoenix and LA both played at a level above 55+ wins.

[kawhileonard2]

I mean...30ppg 13rpg 10apg on 70 TS%

No one else in history has that kind of impact.

It’s on par with Kawhi 2019

[tpols]

Jokic obviously has some “That didn’t even make sense” in him but not Birds whole floor “Can’t do anything about that” shot making.


I'd argue he does have that. Along with last night's dagger he hit this one too in this series.


https://youtu.be/Suq5zRm9tho

All on AD playing perfect defense. Those are morale crushing shots because there's just nothing you can do. He's chucking the ball so high it damn near scrapes the jumbotron and then ends up nothing but net with the defender left dumbfounded scratching his head.

[Micku]

Thats where it gets tricky. He doesn’t exactly do any of those things. He can pass while stationary like anyone but most of the “Magic” was on the move. Largely for mobility reasons Jokic can’t be Magic. He’s closer to passing like Bird if everyone were spread out with wide passing lanes instead of all his highlights being in traffic and passing to bigs for quick dunks.

He also doesn’t really shoot like Bird…he just has percentages on his side which aren’t really the same thing. Bird shot worse from 3 than a number of people he was a better shooter than. Even in his time. It’s kinda like how Horford shoots better than Dirk from 3 and on more attempts. It doesn’t match the multi level shooting or the variety of shots. Jokic obviously has some “That didn’t even make sense” in him but not Birds whole floor “Can’t do anything about that” shot making. Bird was Kobe like in his unbalanced, seemingly random, “You can’t have worked on that” shot making but bigger.

And he definitely doesn’t rebound like Moses. If you put Moses out there vs teams playing 1 big and a wing at the 4 with another tweener at the 4 next to him his numbers would be quite different. Moses can get you 12-13 a game while playing next to Barkley vs other teams with 2-3 bigs. He can get you the numbers on the same team as Kevin Willis who got like 16 a game himself when Moses was gone.

Anyone who can rebound today should absolutely slaughter modern teams on the boards. You’re not playing Laimbeer and Rodman on the same team. Or Ewing and Oakley. Or Barkley and Moses or Moses and Willis…Shaq and Horace…Zo and LJ. Not that that was every team but it was how most teams were built.

These teams are built for spacing not pushing you around. The second true big really throws these things off.

That said what I really like is his hands while rebounding. Guys like him, Bird, Moses, and Hakeem who can get into position and softly get the ball tipped in are a handful. He must be so frustrating to play. Makes you play the whole possession. Can’t fall asleep on the box out.

Hes fundamentally sound as hell.

Hes as close as his body type will allow in the things you said but someone who could do all you said would barely be human.


Yeah, I think so too. I think he is more of a bigger Larry Bird than any comparison. His passes are similar to Bird, he plays almost off the ball similar to Bird, and even has a similar shooting motion. He doesn't have the shooting touch that Bird has despite the 3pt %. He does have better touch within the paint. Although the spacing is better nowadays, and easier to score in the paint. He still scores over AD, Gobert, Ayton, and etc.

He isn't as agile as Bird was, but he is stronger. He is more similar to Larry Bird than anybody that I seen. But just because he is similar, it doesn't mean he is exactly the same of course.

[Carbine]

Let's just make this clear so everyone understands what this "goat playoff run" means.

You're saying this version of Jokic is the best basketball player ever. This is him. This is what the best looks like. Ever. Of all time.

Jokic ain't like that boys.

[Im Still Ballin]

I still feel like "a mix of Bird, Dirk, and McHale" is the best comparison for Jokic. He displays many of their best attributes: Bird's passing, vision, and ball handling; Dirk's shooting and elbow scoring; McHale's paint touch and fluidity.

He hits high-arcing, timely fadeaway jump shots like Nowitzki. He operates in the paint like a slower yet stronger McHale. He makes laser-sharp touch passes and high-low fastball strikes like Larry.

[FultzNationRISE]

Let's just make this clear so everyone understands what this "goat playoff run" means.

You're saying this version of Jokic is the best basketball player ever. This is him. This is what the best looks like. Ever. Of all time.

Jokic ain't like that boys.

We’re obviously excluding Lebron who has like the top 4-5 consensus GOAT playoff runs.

But outside that it’s at least a valid opinion to have. Theres no right or wrong, it’s subjective.

I think youre assuming a GOAT run has to be about racking up big points on flashy shots and jumping in the air for an iconic fist pump afterward.

Murray has had a great playoff run so far, but if you think they go farther without Jokic than without Murray youre nuts.

Without Murray they lose a few of those games but still conceivably win each series.

Take away Jokic and they do not have a chance in any series they played.

The game is more than just about individual point totals. Jokic elevates the impact of every player on the team like few in history have done. If your eye test is just about who explodes for points, you need to check your depth perception.

[FultzNationRISE]

That said, the obsession with stars and GOAT runs is overblown anyway. Teams are not just one guy.

The Heat role players are playing great because theyre playing great, not because Butler is making them. And the Nuggets role players are also balling in their own right, its not like Jokic can make them make shots. Teams win games.

A lot of MJ’s runs look great on highlight reels but the volume of shots he took wasnt even necessary to win. They won bc the Bulls had better teams.

Fans just love hero narratives. Which is fine, sports is entertainment. But its a little bit silly the degree to which we act like individuals achieve the entire result on their own.

[tpols]

That said, the obsession with stars and GOAT runs is overblown anyway. Teams are not just one guy.

The Heat role players are playing great because theyre playing great, not because Butler is making them. And the Nuggets role players are also balling in their own right, its not like Jokic can make them make shots. Teams win games.

A lot of MJ’s runs look great on highlight reels but the volume of shots he took wasnt even necessary to win. They won bc the Bulls had better teams.

Fans just love hero narratives. Which is fine, sports is entertainment. But its a little bit silly the degree to which we act like individuals achieve the entire result on their own.

The Heat and Nuggets wouldn't have even made the playoffs without Jokic or Butler. The Heat were in the play in tournament with Jimmy lol. Imagine without him.

It's pretty clear those guys are the huge driving force behind their teams success and they wouldn't be anything without them.

[BarberSchool]

No.

Denver has a good well rounded squad.

The fact that many of the very good players on Denver aren’t household names obsessed over by the golden calf worshipping media, doesn’t mean they aren’t great players.

Denver has great RYTHM, great chemistry, and great coaching.

Jokic is just the cornerstone / load stone. That ties it all together, and distributes the ball at the exact right times, as a real team player should. He’s like an offensive genius version of Duncan.

[FultzNationRISE]

The Heat and Nuggets wouldn't have even made the playoffs without Jokic or Butler. The Heat were in the play in tournament with Jimmy lol. Imagine without him.

It's pretty clear those guys are the huge driving force behind their teams success and they wouldn't be anything without them.

I get that but Im saying that in these playoffs, their teammates are factually playing great. And thats a big part of what is separating these teams right now.

Butler and Jokic were great players last year and the year before and the year before. And yet theyve made a combined 1 finals. Any team that wins it all gets a great performance out of the whole team, or they DONT win it all. Dirk and Hakeem’s casts played fantastic despite none of them being credited as “co-superstars.”

No so-called GOAT playoff run carries a team alone (besides Lebron). Any team that wins a chip was the best TEAM in those playoffs. Even if its not the most talented team in the league on paper, you have to play the best as a team in the playoffs to win.