Peak Larry Bird vs Peak Nikola Jokic

[1987_Lakers]

Who was better

[1987_Lakers]

bump

[FultzNationRISE]

Jokic.

I really dont see a case for anyone being ‘better’ in their era than Jokic is. You could argue for some guys being equal, but I dont know how you sit there and make a logical case anyone was ‘better.’*

I mean you could compare “resumés” but Im talking about like… meaningful ways. Not simplistic irrelevant ways.



*Besides Lebron, obviously.

[elementally morale]

Jokic.

I really dont see a case for anyone being ‘better’ in their era than Jokic is. You could argue for some guys being equal, but I dont know how you sit there and make a logical case anyone was ‘better.’*

I mean you could compare “resumés” but Im talking about like… meaningful ways. Not simplistic irrelevant ways.


It looks like Jokic will be the first player to average a triple double in the playoffs AND winning a ring. Plus he was like 5 rebounds and 7 assists away from averaging a triple double in the regular season. And should've won MVP. Too bad he didn't. This would probably be a top 3 season all time. At any rate, he still has time to improve. Will be just 28 this year. I think he still has another gear. He is barely making a sweat this season.

[Carbine]

Jokic.

I really dont see a case for anyone being ‘better’ in their era than Jokic is. You could argue for some guys being equal, but I dont know how you sit there and make a logical case anyone was ‘better.’*

I mean you could compare “resumés” but Im talking about like… meaningful ways. Not simplistic irrelevant ways.



*Besides Lebron, obviously.

MJ was definitely better in his peak. So was Hakeem.

[BarberSchool]

Will be at least 5 years before anyone can accurately call this definitively.

As of right now, it’s Bird by eons. But Jokic looks like his style of play won’t yield many “high flying injuries” lol, and his game uses very little athleticism, so he’ll probably sustain for a long a$$ time without much drop off as he goes thru his 30’s.

[1987_Lakers]

Will be at least 5 years before anyone can accurately call this definitively.

Why? Jokic is already at his peak. You could call this when the series is over.

[ShawkFactory]

MJ was definitely better in his peak. So was Hakeem.

Meh. MJ I'd give you but was Hakeem really better? He was certainly different and a more traditional big on both ends. Jokic is a different animal.

No way you can say Hakeem was "definitely" better. Especially since the Nuggets very likely will win a ring this year and look pretty fvcking good for the next several to get a few more. Injuries are always a thing I suppose but this squad has that dynasty It factor look to it.

[FultzNationRISE]

MJ was definitely better in his peak. So was Hakeem.

MJ played for stats and his team won 56 games without him.

Im talking about the impact a guy makes on the W-L column. You cant convince me Mike was more valuable.

[elementally morale]

Why? Jokic is already at his peak.

I'm not sure any more. Every year he keeps improving. The peak is visible only in the rear view mirror. He may be getting even better.

[kawhileonard2]

MJ played for stats and his team won 56 games without him.

Im talking about the impact a guy makes on the W-L column. You cant convince me Mike was more valuable.

Sure MJ won 72, 69, 67 games. Also never lost with HCA nor won bronze medals.

[FultzNationRISE]

Sure MJ won 72, 69, 67 games. Also never lost with HCA nor won bronze medals.

No, Pippen did that.

Also, Reggie Miller broke MJ.

[kawhileonard2]

No, Pippen did that.

Also, Reggie Miller broke MJ.

Yep thats why he won league, finals mvp, DPOY and scored 2 points in a game 7.

Dwight Howard broke Lebron soo hard that Lebron switched teams and then joined forces with him.

Devin Booker broke Lebron. Devin Booker put up 47 his playoff career high on Lebron .....
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

Lebron stacking the deck in 2022 because he is afraid of Devin Booker
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

[BarberSchool]

Why? Jokic is already at his peak. You could call this when the series is over.
What would you say Bird’s peak was ?

A single post season ? Or several post seasons ? Or a 5+ year window in which Bird won a handful of rings ?

Now apply that same logic to Jokic…. He is just barely beginning to approach his peak. Denver has a half decade or so window that is just beginning this post season now that they’re all healthy finally.

[ShawkFactory]

To me Jokic is more like Duncan than Bird, whiteness and passing skills aside. A completely unselfish and humble superstar who doesn't care about his numbers or anything and truly just wants to make the players around him and thus the team better.

Not to say Bird didn't want those things but he was more of a killer as a scorer at his peak. He moved quickly and looked for his shot more than Jokic does and it seemed like when Bird would have a game where he'd take 7 shots it would be intentionally almost to make a point that he could dominate without scoring. Jokic doesn't care about any of those mind games.

One isn't better than the other though. If your life is on the line it's hard to not have Larry in your corner.

[ILLsmak]

I agree w dudes saying no way to know peak. That’s a compliment btw.

28 is a beastly age. Wait til u guys are 28. Still able to do what u do, able to step back, mental toughness. At least wait til dood is 30 to look back on his career.

-Smak

[Axe]

MJ played for stats and his team won 56 games without him.

Im talking about the impact a guy makes on the W-L column. You cant convince me Mike was more valuable.
Lol they're not gonna like this.

[Carbine]

Meh. MJ I'd give you but was Hakeem really better? He was certainly different and a more traditional big on both ends. Jokic is a different animal.

No way you can say Hakeem was "definitely" better. Especially since the Nuggets very likely will win a ring this year and look pretty fvcking good for the next several to get a few more. Injuries are always a thing I suppose but this squad has that dynasty It factor look to it.

Hakeem was the best offensive and defensive player in the league during his peak. That's why.

[ShawkFactory]

Hakeem was the best offensive and defensive player in the league during his peak. That's why.

Idk about that. He was certainly the best combination of both.

[Carbine]

Jordan wasn't around when Hakeem peaked.

[Carbine]

He lead playoff scoring for everyone two years in a row. Be was averaging 4.5 assists per game too over that timeframe which was excellent for that time period.

He PROVED he was the best offensive player. He played against a gauntlet of big men during those runs. And outplayed them all very clearly.

[1987_Lakers]

Guys?

[kawhileonard2]

Guys?

Jokic won a title for a franchise that drafted him without leaving. Lebron left and still was losing.

[WhiteKyrie]

Why this comparison

[1987_Lakers]

Why this comparison

Why not?

[j3lademaster]

I really like Bird’s swagger and his style of play, but he’s probably the worst player out of the top 10. Too many bad showings in the playoffs.

Jokic otoh, I can’t even recall him ever having a bad game. This might be the most consistent player of all time.

[Manny98]

Current Jokic is better than anyone outside of maybe Peak MJ, LeBron and maybe Curry as well

[TheMan]

This puts to bed the narrative from younger NBA fans who claim that Larry Bird wouldn't do shit in this era because he wasn't athletic enough. We just witnessed a fat slow white guy put on one of the GOAT playoff runs in NBA history in this GOAT athletic era :lol Of course Larry Bird would kill in this era.

Now between Jokic and Bird? Tough to say, both play different positions. OP being lazy as usual comparing them because of their skin color :rolleyes:

[brownmamba00]

Bird got his silverware competing against Magic Kareem Dr.J etc...

This Heat team can't compare to some of the teams Larry Legend had to go through to get his rings. Disrespectful to compare them. Jokic is a big guy 7fter.

[theman93]

Bird 1984-86 vs Jokic 2021-23 Regular Season:

Points: Bird - 26.4 | Jokic - 26

Rebounds: Bird - 10.3 | Jokic - 12.2

Assists: Bird - 6.6 | Jokic 8.7

Steals: Bird - 1.7 | Jokic 1.1

Blocks: Bird - 1.1 | Jokic 0.7

TS%: Bird - 57.3% | Jokic 66.8%

PER: Bird - 25.5 | Jokic 31.9

BPM: Bird - 8.4 | Jokic - 12.9

WS/48: Bird - .232 | Jokic - .302

VORP: Bird - 24.4 (241 games) | Jokic - 27.4 (215 games)


Statistically it's pretty close, but analytically Jokic so far and away blows him out of the water that it makes it not even close. If the statistics and analytics make it a close call I usually defer to hardware. But not in this case.

[Micku]

Bird 1984-86 vs Jokic 2021-23 Regular Season:

Points: Bird - 26.4 | Jokic - 26

Rebounds: Bird - 10.3 | Jokic - 12.2

Assists: Bird - 6.6 | Jokic 8.7

Steals: Bird - 1.7 | Jokic 1.1

Blocks: Bird - 1.1 | Jokic 0.7

TS%: Bird - 57.3% | Jokic 66.8%

PER: Bird - 25.5 | Jokic 31.9

BPM: Bird - 8.4 | Jokic - 12.9

WS/48: Bird - .232 | Jokic - .302

VORP: Bird - 24.4 (241 games) | Jokic - 27.4 (215 games)


Statistically it's pretty close, but analytically Jokic so far and away blows him out of the water that it makes it not even close. If the statistics and analytics make it a close call I usually defer to hardware. But not in this case.


You shouldn't compare stats across eras like that. They play with two vastly different rules and philosophies in how they play the game, what defense looks like, what the coaching looks like and etc. If Bird played in this era, he would've taken more 3s. Not to mention, they play two different positions.

It's better to compare them to their relative competition.


But one thing to note is that Jokic always performed better in the POs than in the RS in terms of volume. Bird didn't do that as much.

[theman93]

You shouldn't compare stats across eras like that. They play with two vastly different rules and philosophies in how they play the game, what defense looks like, what the coaching looks like and etc. If Bird played in this era, he would've taken more 3s. Not to mention, they play two different positions.

It's better to compare them to their relative competition.


But one thing to note is that Jokic always performed better in the POs than in the RS in terms of volume. Bird didn't do that as much.

Pure statistics, sure. But advanced stats I disagree.

[Micku]

Pure statistics, sure. But advanced stats I disagree.

You think it's fair to compare their TS% when teams back then didn't even practice the 3?

And the thought process of the offense where you want to step inside of the 3pt line for a long midrange shot, which is often thought of as the worst shot you can take nowadays? And the spacing wasn't nearly as pronounced as it is now? Not to mention there was no 3 defensive seconds, so big men could camp at the paint, there was no zone, and etc etc with different rules. I think the efficiency would range depending on the era. I would say it's better to judge their efficiency in comparison to their era that they played in than across eras.

[Norcaliblunt]

Why can’t idiots understand that you can’t compare players from different eras?

The first three threads at the top of this page as I type this is comparing dudes across eras.

Just Stfu. You are smarter than this my Bay Area dude.

[theman93]

You think it's fair to compare their TS% when teams back then didn't even practice the 3?

And the thought process of the offense where you want to step inside of the 3pt line for a long midrange shot, which is often thought of as the worst shot you can take nowadays? And the spacing wasn't nearly as pronounced as it is now? Not to mention there was no 3 defensive seconds, so big men could camp at the paint, there was no zone, and etc etc with different rules. I think the efficiency would range depending on the era. I would say it's better to judge their efficiency in comparison to their era that they played in than across eras.

We're not talking about teams. We're talking about Bird vs Jokic. Are you telling me Bird did not practice 3's? Even if his 3 point volume increased he's not closing that Grand Canyon sized gap. Look at Jokic's FG% by distance these past 3 seasons. He's averaging greater than 50% from everywhere inside the 3 point line and it's not like it's some small sample size either. I mean this isn't even something a guy like Dirk Nowitzki accomplished even once in his career. The only other guy I could find who's done this is KD (admittedly I did not spend hours researching players though). What he's doing is largely unprecedented.

Jokic only averages 3.1 three point attempts during this 3 year span, while Bird averaged 1.7 from 1984-86. So this isn't some situation where Jokic's TS% is blowing Bird's out of the water because of volume. And let's also not act like Bird saw this big resistance from the defense guarding the 3 point line. Less focus on the 3 pointer by the offense = less focus on defending it. Just like more focus on the 3 pointer by the offense = more focus on defending it. The logic should flow both ways.

The average TS% from 1984-86 hovered at a tick above 54%. For all the things you mentioned regarding era's, the league average TS% didn't even reach 55% until 2017. The league average TS% the past 3 seasons has been 57.2%, 56.6%, and 58.1% respectively. Jokic absolutely dwarfs that during this stretch.

[Micku]

We're not talking about teams. We're talking about Bird vs Jokic. Are you telling me Bird did not practice 3's? Even if his 3 point volume increased he's not closing that Grand Canyon sized gap. Look at Jokic's FG% by distance these past 3 seasons. He's averaging greater than 50% from everywhere inside the 3 point line and it's not like it's some small sample size either. I mean this isn't even something a guy like Dirk Nowitzki accomplished even once in his career. The only other guy I could find who's done this is KD (admittedly I did not spend hours researching players though). What he's doing is largely unprecedented.

Jokic only averages 3.1 three point attempts during this 3 year span, while Bird averaged 1.7 from 1984-86. So this isn't some situation where Jokic's TS% is blowing Bird's out of the water because of volume. And let's also not act like Bird saw this big resistance from the defense guarding the 3 point line. Less focus on the 3 pointer by the offense = less focus on defending it. Just like more focus on the 3 pointer by the offense = more focus on defending it. The logic should flow both ways.

The average TS% from 1984-86 hovered at a tick above 54%. For all the things you mentioned regarding era's, the league average TS% didn't even reach 55% until 2017. The league average TS% the past 3 seasons has been 57.2%, 56.6%, and 58.1% respectively. Jokic absolutely dwarfs that during this stretch.
Yeah, he didn't really practice 3s.



The best part was Larry Bird never even practiced three-point shooting.

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/larry-bird-revealed-his-favourite-3-point-spots-to-kevin-mchale

He said it another time too in an interview.

And his teammate Sichting also said they didn't really practice shooting 3s.



“You had a couple of assistant coaches, maybe. We couldn’t practice 3s. It would take us all day to shoot as many 3s in the summer as these guys take because we didn’t have (rebounders). We’d be chasing the ball all over the gym. We would have shot a lot more if we had all that kind of manpower.”

https://theathletic.com/1519920/2020/01/09/larry-bird-celtics/

I'm surprised you don't know this. No one back then really even practiced the 3, not like how they do today. They considered it a bad shot.

And when it comes to your comment about the team, I'm talking about the team as much as about the rules, the defense, and the philosophy of the era during that team. It's completely different. NBA right now is easier to score because of a multitude of reasons. And efficiency is also emphasized more now. And the league changes over time. You can't compare the 60s to the 80s. You can compare the 80s to 00s. You definitely can't compare to 20s to 80s. It's more accurate to compare their rTS than their raw TS.

And some stats like plus/minus depends on the context that you use them in. A higher plus/minus don't really mean player a > player b. It's just that player a team needs him more, but it doesn't make "player a" a better player than "player b".

With that said, Jokic is an amazing player and is scoring at a crazy efficient rate. His advanced stats are off the charts. But I do think with certain stats, you shouldn't compare across eras in general. You should use them within context too.

[1987_Lakers]

Speaking of Sichting, he probably would have been a great 3 point shooter today, I've seen a bunch of '86 Celtics games and dude never missed a mid-range shot it seemed. His defense also frustrated Isiah like hell.

[Micku]

Speaking of Sichting, he probably would have been a great 3 point shooter today, I've seen a bunch of '86 Celtics games and dude never missed a mid-range shot it seemed. His defense also frustrated Isiah like hell.

Right? He was automatic from the games that I watched.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VlM1h5vwyY

1:26 mark

"What did you say Brent?"

[warriorfan]

Speaking of Sichting, he probably would have been a great 3 point shooter today, I've seen a bunch of '86 Celtics games and dude never missed a mid-range shot it seemed. His defense also frustrated Isiah like hell.

lol back in the day on realgm there was a guy who’s username was sichting lives or something like that and I had no idea what it meant :lol

[theman93]

Yeah, he didn't really practice 3s.


https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/larry-bird-revealed-his-favourite-3-point-spots-to-kevin-mchale

He said it another time too in an interview.

And his teammate Sichting also said they didn't really practice shooting 3s.



https://theathletic.com/1519920/2020/01/09/larry-bird-celtics/

I'm surprised you don't know this. No one back then really even practiced the 3, not like how they do today. They considered it a bad shot.

And when it comes to your comment about the team, I'm talking about the team as much as about the rules, the defense, and the philosophy of the era during that team. It's completely different. NBA right now is easier to score because of a multitude of reasons. And efficiency is also emphasized more now. And the league changes over time. You can't compare the 60s to the 80s. You can compare the 80s to 00s. You definitely can't compare to 20s to 80s. It's more accurate to compare their rTS than their raw TS.

And some stats like plus/minus depends on the context that you use them in. A higher plus/minus don't really mean player a > player b. It's just that player a team needs him more, but it doesn't make "player a" a better player than "player b".

With that said, Jokic is an amazing player and is scoring at a crazy efficient rate. His advanced stats are off the charts. But I do think with certain stats, you shouldn't compare across eras in general. You should use them within context too.

Bird's quote reads, "...we never really worked on it." Which I'm obviously aware of, it's common knowledge shooting 3's was not emphasized. My point is that it's not like he literally did not work on it at all.

As already mentioned Jokic's rTS% blows Bird's out of the water. Without even looking at that initially it wouldn't have been a tough assumption to make considering the raw TS% gap is like the parting of the Red Sea. I also never claimed BPM determines which player is better, but it is a useful ingredient when comparing players.

I have no problem if you only want to measure players against their contemporaries of their era and see how far they separated themselves. I disagree though. But if we only do it your way, from 1984-86... Bird led the league in PER 2/3 times - Jokic led it 3/3 times. Bird led the league in WS/48 2/3 times - Jokic led it 3/3 times. They both led the league in BPM and VORP 3/3 times. Advantage still goes to Jokic by your criteria.

[Micku]

Bird's quote reads, "...we never really worked on it." Which I'm obviously aware of, it's common knowledge shooting 3's was not emphasized. My point is that it's not like he literally did not work on it at all.

As already mentioned Jokic's rTS% blows Bird's out of the water. Without even looking at that initially it wouldn't have been a tough assumption to make considering the raw TS% gap is like the parting of the Red Sea. I also never claimed BPM determines which player is better, but it is a useful ingredient when comparing players.

I have no problem if you only want to measure players against their contemporaries of their era and see how far they separated themselves. I disagree though. But if we only do it your way, from 1984-86... Bird led the league in PER 2/3 times - Jokic led it 3/3 times. Bird led the league in WS/48 2/3 times - Jokic led it 3/3 times. They both led the league in BPM and VORP 3/3 times. Advantage still goes to Jokic by your criteria.

Oh, I'm not arguing for Bird here with the stats comparison to Jokic to say Bird was a better player than Jokic or whatever. That wasn't my intention.

I think Jokic peaked higher. Dude is amazing. Even relative to the league, I think Jokic is blowing most players out of the water with his efficiency with rTS and stats to his competition.

I was just arguing that the comparison with the stats across era shouldn't be used in that format is all. I think it's more accurate to compare them relative to their era instead of going across eras. But there is some nuance to it. And to add that Jokic is a center. He should be more efficient, but he also has insane impact.

[HighFlyer23]

How do we know that Jokic has peaked yet? What if he continues to elevate?

[HoopsNY]

Bird's quote reads, "...we never really worked on it." Which I'm obviously aware of, it's common knowledge shooting 3's was not emphasized. My point is that it's not like he literally did not work on it at all.

As already mentioned Jokic's rTS% blows Bird's out of the water. Without even looking at that initially it wouldn't have been a tough assumption to make considering the raw TS% gap is like the parting of the Red Sea. I also never claimed BPM determines which player is better, but it is a useful ingredient when comparing players.

I have no problem if you only want to measure players against their contemporaries of their era and see how far they separated themselves. I disagree though. But if we only do it your way, from 1984-86... Bird led the league in PER 2/3 times - Jokic led it 3/3 times. Bird led the league in WS/48 2/3 times - Jokic led it 3/3 times. They both led the league in BPM and VORP 3/3 times. Advantage still goes to Jokic by your criteria.

How are you dissecting that? Bird entered the league when the three pointer was just introduced. It wasn't until the '86 season he had any kind of regularity or volume with it, relative to the era in which he played. Then his career was basically over in '89 when he missed almost the entire season.

From '86-'88, his rTS is +6. Jokic's attempts don't climb over 2 threes a game until 2018. From 2018-23, his rTS is +6.8.

[Axe]

It's 7'1 brian windhorst.

http://t0.gstatic.com/licensed-image?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvA_kFtnJthkoFWcpV_gYNUVb82ojzAV Q1QdnTj-iIhmCR2xWid--V0_Or7sM6iBCaZHlvgpUVa_8gTelB8SEDdDyQf8bcKm8VTBUuA t0

[theman93]

How are you dissecting that? Bird entered the league when the three pointer was just introduced. It wasn't until the '86 season he had any kind of regularity or volume with it, relative to the era in which he played. Then his career was basically over in '89 when he missed almost the entire season.

From '86-'88, his rTS is +6. Jokic's attempts don't climb over 2 threes a game until 2018. From 2018-23, his rTS is +6.8.

OP opened the discussion of peak vs peak so this is based off of Jokic's 2021-23 seasons and Bird's 1984-86 seasons where he won 3 consecutive MVP's. Looking at his numbers though it's pretty cut and dry that he was better in 1987 than 1984 so we can take 1985-87 instead. However he didn't lead the league in PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP in 1987 like he did in 1984 if we want to zoom this thing in even farther when it comes to the contemporary comparison.

Something I think that gets lost in all this is what I brought up before regarding how defenses defended the three point line back then. From Bird's own mouth in the article Micku posted - "we wouldn’t even guard guys beyond the 3-point line. We would stay away underneath, go under every pick." If we can all agree players are better at shooting the 3 today because they practice it more, I think it also needs to be acknowledged that players in Bird's era received their own benefit of having basically target practice in live games. That is an absolutely massive advantage for a naturally great shooter like Bird who didn't practice the shot that much to even be good at it in the first place.

[HoopsNY]

OP opened the discussion of peak vs peak so this is based off of Jokic's 2021-23 seasons and Bird's 1984-86 seasons where he won 3 consecutive MVP's. Looking at his numbers though it's pretty cut and dry that he was better in 1987 than 1984 so we can take 1985-87 instead. However he didn't lead the league in PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP in 1987 like he did in 1984 if we want to zoom this thing in even farther when it comes to the contemporary comparison.

Something I think that gets lost in all this is what I brought up before regarding how defenses defended the three point line back then. From Bird's own mouth in the article Micku posted - "we wouldn’t even guard guys beyond the 3-point line. We would stay away underneath, go under every pick." If we can all agree players are better at shooting the 3 today because they practice it more, I think it also needs to be acknowledged that players in Bird's era received their own benefit of having basically target practice in live games. That is an absolutely massive advantage for a naturally great shooter like Bird who didn't practice the shot that much to even be good at it in the first place.

My contention isn't with that so much. What I'm looking at is how rTS is weighed given the data. If we apply context, then the two are much closer than what meets the eye. It's unfair to use Jokic's first couple of seasons, as his volume was low. Similarly, Bird had a similar fate, but the data is still skewed after '88 due to the injuries.

When we look at the samples on a more even footing, then the difference in rTS aren't significant, though Jokic does have him slightly. I'm actually already convinced Jokic is a better offensive player, but I don't think the difference is as significant as you may be thinking. I also think the two are more even in passing, but I prefer Bird's defensive abilities more (especially in help defense), and Bird is a GOAT leader.

Time can change that though. Jokic is only 27. This might very well just be the beginning of his peak, and maybe he hasn't even peaked yet. Given that players (elite players) are playing longer into their careers, then he could very well pass Bird. Time will tell.

[theman93]

My contention isn't with that so much. What I'm looking at is how rTS is weighed given the data. If we apply context, then the two are much closer than what meets the eye. It's unfair to use Jokic's first couple of seasons, as his volume was low. Similarly, Bird had a similar fate, but the data is still skewed after '88 due to the injuries.

When we look at the samples on a more even footing, then the difference in rTS aren't significant, though Jokic does have him slightly. I'm actually already convinced Jokic is a better offensive player, but I don't think the difference is as significant as you may be thinking. I also think the two are more even in passing, but I prefer Bird's defensive abilities more (especially in help defense), and Bird is a GOAT leader.

Time can change that though. Jokic is only 27. This might very well just be the beginning of his peak, and maybe he hasn't even peaked yet. Given that players (elite players) are playing longer into their careers, then he could very well pass Bird. Time will tell.

But I’m not using Jokic’s first couple of seasons? I’m using 2021, 2022, and 2023 which he only averaged like 3 threes/game. That’s not a lot of volume at all.

[HoopsNY]

But I’m not using Jokic’s first couple of seasons? I’m using 2021, 2022, and 2023 which he only averaged like 3 threes/game. That’s not a lot of volume at all.

Yea, I can see why you did that. Though even then, I'd argue that Jokic benefits from better spacing in today's era. If Bird has a clearer path to the basket, especially given that he played well off the ball, then intuition tells me he sees an increase in his overall TS% as well.

[theman93]

Yea, I can see why you did that. Though even then, I'd argue that Jokic benefits from better spacing in today's era. If Bird has a clearer path to the basket, especially given that he played well off the ball, then intuition tells me he sees an increase in his overall TS% as well.

Yeah, but even though Jokic benefits from better spacing today, Bird benefitted from the defense not even defending the 3 by his own account. So in a way it almost offsets.