Why is STOCKTON so underrated?

[Dagoods]

I honestly do not understand why this man doesn't get any credit.

I wouldn't take the likes of O. ROBERTSON, I. THOMAS, and C. PAUL over STOCKTON, not even at gunpoint.

STOCKTON can pass better than all 3 combined. STOCKTON can defend better than all 3 for sure!
STOCKTON was by far the better shooter!

Big-O was the Westbrick of the 60s.
Zeke was a combo-guard better offensively than Stockton. However, he was not a better playmaker than Stockton.
CP3 is the biggest b!tch I've seen put on a pair of kicks.

What say you?
Your thoughts...your thoughts...

[1987_Lakers]

I'm not so sure Stockton could defend & shoot like CP3, but they are on similar levels in those departments.

His prime/peak was a step below other all-time great PGs like Magic, Nash, CP3, & the Big O, but his longevity more than made up for it.

I always see him listed as a top 25-30 player ever.

I don't think he gets underrated.

[3ba11]

It's funny because someone told me recently that Lebron/AD could've easily destroyed Stocton/Malone

The problem is that Stockton defeated Shaq, Duncan and Hakeem to make the 98' Finals - could AD really do that?

Shaq had 3 all-star teammates in 1998 (Kobe, Van Exel and Eddie Jones) plus Fox, Horry, and Fisher, while Duncan had Robinson and Popovich (56 wins).. Utah swept or gentlemen swept both teams.

So the 10-year organic chemistry meant a lot and every opponent from the 90's West was a long-standing, organic juggernaut like the Suns, Sonics, Blazers, Spurs or Jazz - there was a ton of parity and the team that came out of the 90's West was a battle-tested organic juggernaut that had everything come together for them that year - they were a freight train and that's what Jordan beat - he beat battle-tested, 10-year organic juggernauts that had everything fall just perfect for them that year.. These are the kinds of teams that maul Lebron (14' Spurs, 11' Mavs), so the Lebron/AD combination would stand no chance - they were a talent-based pairing and lack the organic experience and know-how to compete with the 90's West

Lebron's skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically)

[Dagoods]

I'm not so sure Stockton could defend & shoot like CP3, but they are on similar levels in those departments.

His prime/peak was a step below other all-time great PGs like Magic, Nash, CP3, & the Big O, but his longevity more than made up for it.

I always see him listed as a top 25-30 player ever.

I don't think he gets underrated.

He should be considered the best PG of all-time only behind Magic and Curry.

Not the Big Slow
Not the wannabe be shooting guard
and most definitely not that spineless coward CP3!

[HoopologyPhD]

What would the 90s Jazz be like with Stockton?

[FKAri]

What would the 90s Jazz be like with Stockton?

3 champions chips. If wearing Lebron Witnes shoe. It is a good shoe with good grips.

[SouBeachTalents]

What would the 90s Jazz be like with Stockton?
Karl Malone & John Stockton would makes for a pretty good duo. They would defeats Michael Jordan in an NBA Finals. Stockton was a better Finals performers than Kobe.

[FultzNationRISE]

What would the 90s Jazz be like with Stockton?


:roll:

[tpols]

As a peak playoff performer, I feel like Stockton is overrated. He was a poor shooter compared to the guys of today and made his living off feeding Karl Malone who was a true stud MVP talent. His longevity and long term intangibles are great, but if it comes down to a winning a playoff series I'd take a guy like kyrie or dame over him because they actually have the potential to go off in a way Stockton cant.

[Phoenix]

He's not underrated at all. Our resident rankings expert John*random numbers* has him ranked #16 all-time.

[Charlie Sheen]

It might have something to do with the fact that he retired 20 years ago.

[j3lademaster]

He's not underrated at all. Our resident rankings expert John*random numbers* has him ranked #16 all-time.16 for Stockton is overrated if anything.

[Phoenix]

16 for Stockton is overrated if anything.

Yes, I know. Woefully so....

[Lebron23]

he is overrated

Never won an NBA Championship

Not a top 25 player of all time

Only averaged 9 ppg in the 1998 NBA Finals.

John Stockton averaged 12.3 points, 8.8 assists and 3.3 rebounds in 12 games in the NBA Finals in his career.

he got the all time record in assists and steals because of longevity and durability.

[Lebron23]

Ring Less and a terrible finals performer

Isiah Thomas averaged 22.6 points, 7.9 assists and 4.2 rebounds in 16 games in the NBA Finals in his career.

Chris Paul has averaged 21.8 points, 8.2 assists and 2.7 rebounds in 6 games in the NBA Finals in his career.

Oscar Robertson averaged 16.3 points, 8.7 assists and 4.2 rebounds in 11 games in the NBA Finals in his career.

Magic Johnson averaged 19.4 points, 11.7 assists and 7.9 rebounds in 50 games in the NBA Finals in his career.

[Lebron23]

Even Russell Westbrook put up better stats than Stockton in the nba finals.

Russell Westbrook has averaged 27.0 points, 6.6 assists and 6.4 rebounds in 5 games in the NBA Finals in his career.

[Lebron23]

I'm not so sure Stockton could defend & shoot like CP3, but they are on similar levels in those departments.

His prime/peak was a step below other all-time great PGs like Magic, Nash, CP3, & the Big O, but his longevity more than made up for it.

I always see him listed as a top 25-30 player ever.

I don't think he gets underrated.

Probably top 30-35

[Reggie43]

He was underrated obviously because of his longevity. The version of him we all remember he was past his prime, not the guy going for 17pts 15 assists and 3 steals on insane percentages at his peak.

He was also unselfish to a fault, not shooting the ball enough despite having the skillset to score in volume. Barkley in interviews have said that Stockton could have scored 25ppg if he wanted to which was nomal opinion among his peers its just that he decided to play a different way

[Phoenix]

He was underrated obviously because of his longevity. The version of him we all remember he was past his prime, not the guy going for 17pts 15 assists and 3 steals on insane percentages at his peak.

He was also unselfish to a fault, not shooting the ball enough despite having the skillset to score in volume. Barkley in interviews have said that Stockton could have scored 25ppg if he wanted to which was nomal opinion among his peers its just that he decided to play a different way

The Jazz may have won a title if he did that, it would make the PnR infinitely more dangerous if Stockton was as lethal scoring as he was passing. 'Deciding to play a different way' if he really had that capability handicapped the ceiling of that team.

[3ba11]

The Jazz may have won a title if he did that, it would make the PNR infinitely more dangerous if Stockton was as dangeous scoring as he was passing. 'Deciding to play a different way' if he really had that capability handicapped the ceiling of that team.


Stockton swept Shaq and Duncan, while Lebron was destroyed by Booker or Jokic with more help

So there are things you aren't considering like Stockton's low turnovers and superior clutch stats - Stockton was Jordan in the clutch - literally - MJ and Stockton were always 1 and 2 in clutch points with Stockton being right there with MJ

Stockton also averaged 21/11 in the 97' WCF including the historic series walk-off over Barkley - this carried the Jazz to the Finals - almost no PG's have done that

[Phoenix]

Stockton swept Shaq and Duncan, while Lebron was destroyed by Booker or Jokic with more help

So there are things you aren't considering like Stockton's low turnovers and superior clutch stats - Stockton was Jordan in the clutch - literally - MJ and Stockton were always 1 and 2 in clutch points with Stockton being right there with MJ

Stockton also averaged 21/11 in the 97' WCF including the historic series walk-off over Barkley - this carried the Jazz to the Finals - almost no PG's have done that

It's funny that I see you quote me and I literally gloss over your post. I couldn't be less interested in anything you have to say directed at me or in general.

[3ba11]

It's funny that I see you quote me and I literally gloss over your post. I couldn't be less interested in anything you have to say directed at me or in general.


Haha you're so mad

Get Lebron's dick out of your mouth son.. Then you won't be so mad

[Phoenix]

Haha you're so mad

Get Lebron's dick out of your mouth son.. Then you won't be so mad

You should take your own advice. The first post you quoted had nothing to do with Lebron, I was talking about Stockton's scoring you stupid fukk :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

You should take your own advice. The first post you quoted had nothing to do with Lebron, I was talking about Stockton's scoring you stupid fukk :oldlol:

:roll:

[Reggie43]

The Jazz may have won a title if he did that, it would make the PNR infinitely more dangerous if Stockton was as dangeous scoring as he was passing. 'Deciding to play a different way' if he really had that capability handicapped the ceiling of that team.

Whats really the difference between having 10 more points compared to 5 more assists? Passing more increases the effectivity of his teammates while promoting team chemistry. Jazz never had that deep of a team to begin with especially in their Finals runs and he made them a more dangerous team overall because of his unselfishness.

[3ba11]

.
Clutch Points 1997 PLAYOFFS

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-20-2022/ZNXS7G.gif


Clutch Points 1997 FINALS

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-20-2022/j3_9OV.gif




You should take your own advice. The first post you quoted had nothing to do with Lebron, I was talking about Stockton's scoring you stupid fukk :oldlol:


Yes and my post was about Stockton's scoring (despite the Lebron derail) - aka almost no point guards averaged 21/11 in the conference finals to lead their team to the Finals - Stockton did that in the 97' WCF and hit the historic walk-off over Barkley, while being MJ in the clutch - again, almost no PG's have played at this level to lead their team to a Finals.. Stockton was a better scorer than you're giving him credit for... And that wasn't his only big-scoring series.

[1987_Lakers]

Stockton was never known as a scorer. Dude is really showing "clutch points" in 1997, the year he averaged around 15 ppg or so. I can only imagine how much you would shit on a player if he put up those numbers playing with MJ.

Now, prime Nash... that is a good example of a point guard who could take over a game occasional with his scoring.

[Phoenix]

Yes and my post was about Stockton's scoring (despite the Lebron derail)

As far as I read. Yes, you took a post about Stockton and saw an opportunity to mention Lebron. We could have been talking about pvssy and you'd segway that into Lebron, dumb fukk :oldlol:

[Dagoods]

FG - 51.5%
FG3% - 38.4%

In this era, the tutti fruity/Curry era, he'd be boss!!!


https://youtu.be/Y8l6mnxb1yQ

Look at that range!

the BIG SLOW? No thank you!
the combo guard? Nope!
CPB!tch? Not a chance!

Give me Stockton all day!

[3ba11]

Stockton was never known as a scorer. Dude is really showing "clutch points" in 1997, the year he averaged around 15 ppg or so. I can only imagine how much you would shit on a player if he put up those numbers playing with MJ.

Now, prime Nash... that is a good example of a point guard who could take over a game occasional with his scoring.


Stockton was a better scorer than Pippen in the 97' Playoffs:



Playoffs

97' Pippen.......... 19/7/4 on 42%..... clutch = zero
97' Stockton....... 16/4/9 on 52%..... clutch = MJ


Stockton's 97' run also exceeded Pippen's 96' and 98' runs where Pippen averaged 16.8 on literally the worst efficiency that anyone ever had for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 mpg

[LeGoat4Life]

Cause most people on the forums are too young to have watched him play

Perfect examples are the Lebron fanboys who are mainly 18-30 years old working at a burger joint

[Lebron23]

He was underrated obviously because of his longevity. The version of him we all remember he was past his prime, not the guy going for 17pts 15 assists and 3 steals on insane percentages at his peak.

He was also unselfish to a fault, not shooting the ball enough despite having the skillset to score in volume. Barkley in interviews have said that Stockton could have scored 25ppg if he wanted to which was nomal opinion among his peers its just that he decided to play a different way i don’t think so. He never had the Alpha male mentality to average over 20 ppg even in his younger years unlike Isiah Thomas who was a deadly scorer in the playoffs. And still averaged double digits in Assists.

[Lebron23]

Cause most people on the forums are too young to have watched him play

Perfect examples are the Lebron fanboys who are mainly 18-30 years old working at a burger joint

Because he is an inferior player compared to LeBron.

[Reggie43]

i don’t think so. He never had the Alpha male mentality to average over 20 ppg even in his younger years unlike Isiah Thomas who was a deadly scorer in the playoffs. And still averaged double digits in Assists.

On his best years he was at 17ppg on 12 shots on insane efficiency with 14 assists and 3 spg, would two more field goals make him an Alpha lol

[John8204]

He's not underrated at all. Our resident rankings expert John*random numbers* has him ranked #16 all-time.

That's right I do....I consider the man to be the best pure point guard in NBA history. A man who is behind Jordan and Lebron in VOR. But what makes Stockton special is the man was a consistent machine...he played 82 games a season 11 times during his career averaged a double double for 10 seasons, only man to break the 14 APG line and when it counted 8-1 record against Shaq in the playoffs.

numbers aren't random BTW

[SATAN]

The Glove feared Stockton more than he feared MJ (didn't even fear MJ at all actually lol!)

[GimmeThat]

I wouldn't say that a guy that gives you 20% gratuity is underrated

[ILLsmak]

I'm not so sure Stockton could defend & shoot like CP3, but they are on similar levels in those departments.

His prime/peak was a step below other all-time great PGs like Magic, Nash, CP3, & the Big O, but his longevity more than made up for it.

I always see him listed as a top 25-30 player ever.

I don't think he gets underrated.

Stockton would devour CP3, eat a ball punch, and still win with that same expressionless face.

I disagree with his prime being worse than, honestly, any of those dudes. He was that good. Magic and the Big O are universal top 15 players and legends, so maybe they did shine more, but the other dudes ehhh. Still, people don't understand the role of a PG. The further you delve into the actual job of a PG, the more you realize that Stock was as good as it gets. I'd have him push PG on my all time team.

The reason he had longevity is because he didn't really get injured and he was a good PG. Haha. All great PGs have longevity, if you think about it. They are small, generally healthy... even CP3, getting injured ever year, is still a factor and he ain't young. Even if they inflated his assist totals, they are so far beyond the competition, he still had more. Also, he was way more money at shooting and driving than people think. He would be the one who came up with a big basket a lot of the time.

He's underrated in that few will name him as GOAT PG, but he is. He might not be the GOAT player you can slot at PG and have impact, but in terms of pushing a team in the modern era, I don't think anyone else comes close.

Edit: vid of Stock pushing it HARD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnGmWQG_EIc

-Smak

[ImKobe]

he is overrated

Never won an NBA Championship

Not a top 25 player of all time

Only averaged 9 ppg in the 1998 NBA Finals.

John Stockton averaged 12.3 points, 8.8 assists and 3.3 rebounds in 12 games in the NBA Finals in his career.

he got the all time record in assists and steals because of longevity and durability.

Stockton is so far ahead of #2 in assists & steals that he could have retired in '99 (4 seasons or 328 games before he actually did) and still been #1 in both.

[ILLsmak]

As a peak playoff performer, I feel like Stockton is overrated. He was a poor shooter compared to the guys of today and made his living off feeding Karl Malone who was a true stud MVP talent. His longevity and long term intangibles are great, but if it comes down to a winning a playoff series I'd take a guy like kyrie or dame over him because they actually have the potential to go off in a way Stockton cant.

Karl was one of the only actual talents John played with. Since he wasn't a scorer, he didn't have the same lanes as other people. He got bums buckets, not just passing it to people who are wide open, but giving them the ball to execute their bummy go to moves and it worked mostly.

Karl is overrated because he came up empty a lot. It's possible w/ just a little more from Karl, Jazz could have won a ring.

Kyrie and Dame can get you 50, but they aren't better players or PGs. Stock's career high is like 30, true, but again, he's a PG!!


-Smak

[Phoenix]

That's right I do....I consider the man to be the best pure point guard in NBA history. A man who is behind Jordan and Lebron in VOR. But what makes Stockton special is the man was a consistent machine...he played 82 games a season 11 times during his career averaged a double double for 10 seasons, only man to break the 14 APG line and when it counted 8-1 record against Shaq in the playoffs.

numbers aren't random BTW

Good for you.

[r0drig0lac]

Stockton is so far ahead of #2 in assists & steals that he could have retired in '99 (4 seasons or 328 games before he actually did) and still been #1 in both.

unreal

[90sgoat]

To put it so zoomers can understand:

Stockton is the Jokic of point guards.

[Lebron23]

unreal

zero rings

zero nba titles

[3ba11]

Here's why Gary Payton says that Stockton is the greatest PG of all-time:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/gts76duz3LU

[Chick Stern]

I honestly do not understand why this man doesn't get any credit.

https://y.yarn.co/19ceb2ad-8df2-463a-a95c-515ecb6209d4_text.gif

[Baller234]

I actually think Stockton is kind of overrated.

At his peak he was never hands down the best PG in the league. He was the most well balanced and maybe the best two way player, but he was never above his competition in the way that Magic was. In Stockton's era you had legit 20 & 10 guys who weren't just great playmakers but could score as well. Stockton emerged as the winner from that generation but only in hindsight and because of his longevity. In reality though there were multiple players winning all-nba ahead of him in certain years. So yea I think he's overrated, but only because his name gets tossed around in the holy pantheon.

Now I will say you can make the argument he's the best "pure" PG of all time, but that's a different discussion.

[Meticode]

One thing I always think about is Stockton has the assist record by a clear margin, but in his first three seasons he came off the bench and didn't even average over 24 minutes per game for three straight seasons. And he was an awful three point shooter early in his career. Awful meaning sub 20%. And while he never took a whole bunch of threes because of his era he didn't turn into a respectable three point shooter until his 4th season.

Stockton gets underrated because he wasn't more of a scorer and never won a ring. If he was out there averaging 20/14 for several years instead of 16/14 while getting a ring in the Jordan era he would come to people's minds more often.

[Xiao Yao You]

He should have started from day 1. Not being a scorer or 3 point shooter wasnt a bad thing at the time. Thise guys were the exception. The jazz have never had great foresight. If they had they would have traded theirvall star pg and got something for him instead of losing him in the expansion draft. I could see stockton was special from the first time i saw him and i loved ricky green

[tpols]

He should have started from day 1. Not being a scorer or 3 point shooter wasnt a bad thing at the time. Thise guys were the exception. The jazz have never had great foresight. If they had they would have traded theirvall star pg and got something for him instead of losing him in the expansion draft. I could see stockton was special from the first time i saw him and i loved ricky green

I guess thats why they called him The Comedian.

[Xiao Yao You]

I guess thats why they called him The Comedian.

I call him that because he made himself the head coach when he was more of a jokester than a coach

[Norcaliblunt]

I actually think Stockton is kind of overrated.

At his peak he was never hands down the best PG in the league. He was the most well balanced and maybe the best two way player, but he was never above his competition in the way that Magic was. In Stockton's era you had legit 20 & 10 guys who weren't just great playmakers but could score as well. Stockton emerged as the winner from that generation but only in hindsight and because of his longevity. In reality though there were multiple players winning all-nba ahead of him in certain years. So yea I think he's overrated, but only because his name gets tossed around in the holy pantheon.

Now I will say you can make the argument he's the best "pure" PG of all time, but that's a different discussion.

It was never about his peak but how he out lasted and out endured every single elite guard from that era.

From KJ, Tim Hardaway, Mark Price, Penny, Gary Payton, and even dudes like Magic and Isiah. Stockton was a goddamn marathon man. That’s why he gets props.

Edit

Oh and his peak was best playmaker and top 5 defender at the guard position in the league. lol.

[Baller234]

It was never about his peak but how he out lasted and out endured every single elite guard from that era.

From KJ, Tim Hardaway, Mark Price, Penny, Gary Payton, and even dudes like Magic and Isiah. Stockton was a goddamn marathon man. That’s why he gets props.

Edit

Oh and his peak was best playmaker and top 5 defender at the guard position in the league. lol.

Stockton was the best playmaker in the league? Well I guess that depends on how you define "playmaker". Somewhere along the way that word just became synonymous with getting assists and I think that's wrong.

Making a play means scoring yourself or create scoring opportunities for others. When you take both things into account I don't think you can argue that Stockton was at the top of the league. So much of what the Jazz did also depended on Karl Malone.

I trust Michael Jordan to make a play before I trust John Stockton, so by default he was a better playmaker.

[Xiao Yao You]

Stockton was the best playmaker in the league? Well I guess that depends on how you define "playmaker". Somewhere along the way that word just became synonymous with getting assists and I think that's wrong.

Making a play means scoring yourself or create scoring opportunities for others. When you take both things into account I don't think you can argue that Stockton was at the top of the league. So much of what the Jazz did also depended on Karl Malone.

I trust Michael Jordan to make a play before I trust John Stockton, so by default he was a better playmaker.

Id say playmaker used to mean making plays for others and has changed now not the other way around. Stockton was a playmaker before karl and would have been with anyone

[Xiao Yao You]

It was never about his peak but how he out lasted and out endured every single elite guard from that era.

From KJ, Tim Hardaway, Mark Price, Penny, Gary Payton, and even dudes like Magic and Isiah. Stockton was a goddamn marathon man. That’s why he gets props.

Edit

Oh and his peak was best playmaker and top 5 defender at the guard position in the league. lol.

Yep. There were years i thought some of those guys were comparable to stockton but he was up there every year while those names came and went

[bizil]

Stock ISN'T underrated! He's WIDELY considered a top 5 GOAT PG. He's on the Mt. Rushmore of great floor general PG's along with Magic for DAMN SURE! The last two slots are up for debate. BUT Magic and Stock are LOCKS in my opinion! Longevity wise, he was an elite player LONGER than any other PG damn near too. I would say the difference between Stock and other floor general type PG's (not score first PG's) like Magic, Oscar, Zeke, Frazier, Nash, Payton, CP3, etc. is THE FACT those guys had more stage presence dominating games scoring when it was time. For example, Magic, Oscar, and Zeke had #1 scoring option-alpha dog scoring shit in their games. Stock didn't truly have that next gear. BUT he was still a very capable scorer though.

But I wouldn't say Stock is underrated. Peak-prime wise, I wouldn't put him in the my top 10 PG's ever. BUT GOAT wise, he's a top 5 PG of all time! And GOAT is the more important list! But I gotta say IF Isiah or Magic was on that Utah team in place of him, the chances they win a ring GO UP very noticeably. Because Magic and Isiah were on Stock's level as floor generals. BUT scoring wise, they had the alpha dog scoring bag they could go into. They wouldn't have to look for Malone to dominate games scoring as much. Isiah-Malone or Magic-Malone puts them on another level offensively. That doesn't make Stock underrated though. He's the RARE legend who wasn't a great scorer (or even the next level below that scoring wise) that you COULD STILL consider a superstar level player on the court. In the vein of J Kidd, Bill Russell, Bill Walton, etc. 17 PPG, 14 dimes, 3 SPG, tough af, and being a Mt. Rushmore floor general was what you got from Stock at the peak of his powers!

[bizil]

Stockton was the best playmaker in the league? Well I guess that depends on how you define "playmaker". Somewhere along the way that word just became synonymous with getting assists and I think that's wrong.

Making a play means scoring yourself or create scoring opportunities for others. When you take both things into account I don't think you can argue that Stockton was at the top of the league. So much of what the Jazz did also depended on Karl Malone.

I trust Michael Jordan to make a play before I trust John Stockton, so by default he was a better playmaker.

I agree. If we are talking PURE floor general where it's ABOUT dropping dimes and being the QB, then Stock was the best in the league along with Magic and Isiah in his young days. After they were done or past their best days, Stock was CLEARLY the best floor general in the league. When Kidd got rolling then that was somebody who could compare to Stock floor general wise.

But as OFFENSIVE PLAYMAKERS (scoring, IQ, and dimes combined) then Magic and Isiah were HANDS DOWN better than Stock. Not really close BECAUSE Magic and Isiah could up the ante scoring to an alpha dog level. So Magic and Isiah could literally tailor their games OFFENSIVELY to what their teams needed. BUT at heart they were pass first PG's. Isiah's scoring dropped below 20 PPG when they won rings BECAUSE they had a complete team on both sides of the court. So he didn't have to be as ball dominant, scoring as many points, or drop as many dimes for the Pistons to be successful. BECAUSE AT HEART Zeke was a pass first floor general! As great as Stock was, he couldn't tailor his game offensively the way Magic and Zeke could. LET alone somebody like MJ!