Lebron gets plenty of hate, but people would hate Magic too if he teamed up w/ Bird

[3ba11]

Wade averaged between 20 and 27 in the 2011-2013 Finals, which is similar to Bird's career Finals average (23).

In 2010, Wade was the #2 producer in the NBA behind Lebron based on PER, WS, VORP or BPM - the Kobe/Wade debate was in full force except Wade actually destroyed Kobe across the board statistically (28 to 21 PER.... 9 to 4 BPM).

So Lebron teamed up with a Kobe-like player and added a Pau-caliber guy to play 3rd option (Bosh).. Then he teamed up with Kyrie/Love and then Duncan, I mean AD..

It's a manufactured resume of abandoning teams when things got tough and forming a new super-team - he never persevered with young, old or weak teams.. That's why he get the much-deserved hate.

[1987_Lakers]

1-9

[Airupthere]

It's not just the superteaming with bran. It's almost everything that comes with him. Flopping, faking, lying. All of these fake and leshortcut things that he does make it hard to support him.

[90sgoat]

More likely scenario would be if Magic teamed up with Isiah Thomas.

Isiah, Magic, Kareem.

[1987_Lakers]

Lets not forget OP has Curry top 5 all time while him and peak KD teamed up, but we never hear OP bring that up.

By the time LeBron-Wade were winning chips, Wade was past his prime. Especially in 2013 where he averaged like 15 ppg in the playoff run.

[3ba11]

More likely scenario would be if Magic teamed up with Isiah Thomas.

Isiah, Magic, Kareem.


Exactly - the issue is that Lebron teamed up with opponents/rivals and franchise players/cornerstones

It's one thing to team up with supplementary players like Klay or Pippen, but teaming up with franchise players and cornerstones like Embiid, Barkley, Wade or AD is against the spirit of competition.

[StrongLurk]

OP only hates Lebron because Lebron had the only realistic chance to supplant Jordan as the GOAT. No one else had the combination of size, athleticism, physical gifts, and naturally elite BBIQ.

Most of the world has accepted that Lebron fell short of MJ and will have to settle for second best all time. The only people who still have an obsession over this are the Lebron haters (MJ/Kobe stans) and the Lebron stans. If you take MJ out of the equation and compare Lebron to everyone else, Lebron has just enough production/accomplishments to clear everyone else in the modern era.

[John8204]

Bird walked onto a team with three top 75 players...Magic was on a team that over time got four top 75 and both of them were able to join top level organizations not clown organizations.

The Wade/Lebron/Bosh team might be a top twenty all-time an argument could be made it wasn't.

[jlip]

I'm glad I started watching b-ball and developed a love and understanding of the game before social media era narratives and manufactured criteria for judging a players' greatness was the norm. Magic was my favorite player growing up and is possibly still my favorite player of all time, maybe only behind Penny. But anyways, all of that is to say the following:

In a 1991 LA Times article (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-06-05-sp-83-story.html), Magic said that had the Bulls won the coin toss for the number one pick in the 1979 draft he would have stayed in school because he didn't want to get drafted to a losing franchise. So he gets drafted to the team with the best player in the league, by far, in Kareem who was the MVP of the league that year. Then, the Lakers pick up the Hall of Fame c/pf in Bob McAdoo as a backup. I remember Magic bragging in a post game interview during the 1982 Finals that the Lakers had three MVP caliber players on their team. Then after winning the 1982 championship they were fortunate to have the number one draft pick again and drafted another Hall of Fame player in James Worthy. The 80s Lakers that Magic was on were so loaded that they had the 1987 DPOY, Michael Cooper, coming off the bench.

Why would you go "team up" with somebody else when your front office has just stacked your team with arguably the most loaded roster of the era?

But again, that takes absolutely nothing from Magic's greatness to me, and I'm so glad I was able to develop an appreciation for the game and greatness before fully understanding those things and they meant anything to me.

[3ba11]

OP only hates Lebron because Lebron had the only realistic chance to supplant Jordan as the GOAT. No one else had the combination of size, athleticism, physical gifts, and naturally elite BBIQ.

Most of the world has accepted that Lebron fell short of MJ and will have to settle for second best all time. The only people who still have an obsession over this are the Lebron haters (MJ/Kobe stans) and the Lebron stans.


MJ was only 6'6", so size/athleticism isn't what makes someone goat.. Wilt, Shaq, and Giannis are bigger than Lebron and have goat-level athleticism, so your first statement about Lebron being the only guy with the size/athleticism is false, since other guys have the athleticism and it isn't about athleticism anyway.

Ultimately, I sports-hate Lebron because the media gives him credit for 8 straight Finals and ignores that it was manufactured by putting the top 3 first options in the conference on 1 team - he teamed up with franchise players and cornerstones.

It's like Jokic teaming up with Luka/Curry and then the media gives him flowers for making the Finals.

It's completely absurd.

And I also hate Lebron because the media says he has all-time BBIQ when he employs a horrific brand of basketball that marginalizes teammates, needs more help, ties a coach's hands strategically, can't have a #1 offense, and zero young player development in his entire career.. His skillset of abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.. high BBIQ doh... :rolleyes:

Again, it's absurd.

[Hey Yo]

I'm glad I started watching b-ball and developed a love and understanding of the game before social media era narratives and manufactured criteria for judging a players' greatness was the norm. Magic was my favorite player growing up and is possibly still my favorite player of all time, maybe only behind Penny. But anyways, all of that is to say the following:

In a 1991 LA Times article (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-06-05-sp-83-story.html), Magic said that had the Bulls won the coin toss for the number one pick in the 1979 draft he would have stayed in school because he didn't want to get drafted to a losing franchise. So he gets drafted to the team with the best player in the league, by far, in Kareem who was the MVP of the league that year. Then, the Lakers pick up the Hall of Fame c/pf in Bob McAdoo as a backup. I remember Magic bragging in a post game interview during the 1982 Finals that the Lakers had three MVP caliber players on their team. Then after winning the 1982 championship they were fortunate to have the number one draft pick again and drafted another Hall of Fame player in James Worthy. The 80s Lakers that Magic was on were so loaded that they had the 1987 DPOY, Michael Cooper, coming off the bench.

Why would you go "team up" with somebody else when your front office has just stacked your team with arguably the most loaded roster of the era?

But again, that takes absolutely nothing from Magic's greatness to me, and I'm so glad I was able to develop an appreciation for the game and greatness before fully understanding those things and they meant anything to me.

Put rookie Magic on the 04 Cavs for his first 7 seasons and see how many titles he wins / how happy he is.

Plus, Magic signed a 25yr contract that started in 1984. He wasn't going anywhere

[tpols]

Lets not forget OP has Curry top 5 all time while him and peak KD teamed up, but we never hear OP bring that up.

By the time LeBron-Wade were winning chips, Wade was past his prime. Especially in 2013 where he averaged like 15 ppg in the playoff run.

When Curry "teamed up" with superstar talent he was unbeatable.

[tpols]

Bird walked onto a team with three top 75 players...Magic was on a team that over time got four top 75 and both of them were able to join top level organizations not clown organizations.

The Wade/Lebron/Bosh team might be a top twenty all-time an argument could be made it wasn't.

Bird walked onto a 20 win team and instantly made them a champion. McHale was a scrub in the Celtics 1st title win.

[bdonovan]

The worst posters post the most.

[StrongLurk]

MJ was only 6'6", so size/athleticism isn't what makes someone goat.. Wilt, Shaq, and Giannis are bigger than Lebron and have goat-level athleticism, so your first statement about Lebron being the only guy with the size/athleticism is false, since other guys have the athleticism and it isn't about athleticism anyway.

Ultimately, I sports-hate Lebron because the media gives him credit for 8 straight Finals and ignores that it was manufactured by putting the top 3 first options in the conference on 1 team - he teamed up with franchise players and cornerstones.

It's like Jokic teaming up with Luka/Curry and then the media gives him flowers for making the Finals.

It's completely absurd.

And I also hate Lebron because the media says he has all-time BBIQ when he employs a horrific brand of basketball that marginalizes teammates, needs more help, ties a coach's hands strategically, can't have a #1 offense, and zero young player development in his entire career.. His skillset of abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.. high BBIQ doh... :rolleyes:

Again, it's absurd.

Your first paragraph is wrong, it's the combination of Lebron's natural traits and his natural ability to play basketball that gave him a real chance at hitting MJ's level. Wilt is a dumb thing to bring up since he was before MJ, Shaq is a good candidate but he ultimately he didn't have the natural passion for the game like Lebron, and Giannis is a joke to bring up because he was FAR too raw. When you judge potential at a young age, Lebron had the BEST potential from age 18-21 to challenge MJ.

Also the rest of your post is a great example of what's wrong with modern day discourse. People end up hating certain figures, not because of something those figures DID, but how the MEDIA portrays those figures. It's the same shit with politics.

3ball, it sounds like what you hate based on this post is the sports media coverage of Lebron. In fact most of Lebron's "hate" is derived from other sources besides Lebron himself.

This is obvious, but people can't get past their feelings.

[StrongLurk]

I'm glad I started watching b-ball and developed a love and understanding of the game before social media era narratives and manufactured criteria for judging a players' greatness was the norm. Magic was my favorite player growing up and is possibly still my favorite player of all time, maybe only behind Penny. But anyways, all of that is to say the following:

In a 1991 LA Times article (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-06-05-sp-83-story.html), Magic said that had the Bulls won the coin toss for the number one pick in the 1979 draft he would have stayed in school because he didn't want to get drafted to a losing franchise. So he gets drafted to the team with the best player in the league, by far, in Kareem who was the MVP of the league that year. Then, the Lakers pick up the Hall of Fame c/pf in Bob McAdoo as a backup. I remember Magic bragging in a post game interview during the 1982 Finals that the Lakers had three MVP caliber players on their team. Then after winning the 1982 championship they were fortunate to have the number one draft pick again and drafted another Hall of Fame player in James Worthy. The 80s Lakers that Magic was on were so loaded that they had the 1987 DPOY, Michael Cooper, coming off the bench.

Why would you go "team up" with somebody else when your front office has just stacked your team with arguably the most loaded roster of the era?

But again, that takes absolutely nothing from Magic's greatness to me, and I'm so glad I was able to develop an appreciation for the game and greatness before fully understanding those things and they meant anything to me.

Exactly, so many of these other GOATs had far better situations than MJ and Lebron right out of the gate in their careers. Plus the free agency restrictions/lack of modern day money incentivized players to stay where they were.

[John8204]

Bird walked onto a 20 win team and instantly made them a champion. McHale was a scrub in the Celtics 1st title win.

Bird walked onto a team with Cowens, Archibald, and Maravich

by 1981 they had Parish and McHale

by 1983 they got Dennis Johnson

in 1985 they got Bill Walton to come off the bench

That's seven franchise/elite/HOF players in 7 seasons....Cleveland didn't do that

[GimmeThat]

to stay on topic, yes, the sun gets plenty of hate, but if natural resources, similar to the sun, contributes to the power used by society for human expansion, the earth itself would be hated as well.

[mr4speed]

Bird walked onto a team with Cowens, Archibald, and Maravich

by 1981 they had Parish and McHale

by 1983 they got Dennis Johnson

in 1985 they got Bill Walton to come off the bench

That's seven franchise/elite/HOF players in 7 seasons....Cleveland didn't do that

Need to put some context on these players = Cowens and Maravich were on their last legs and only played 1 year with Bird and retired. Nate Archibald played 4 years with Bird and Nate's productivity declined every year and then he only played 1 more year after being traded. McHale did not become a starter until the 84-85 season. Bird went to a 29 win team and was instrumental ( along with new coach Bill Fitch) in winning 61 games for a 32 game turnaround. Magic and Bird would have never teamed up as they wanted to beat each other on the basketball court more than anything.

[Phoenix]

https://i.postimg.cc/xddkw47g/3nutball2.gif

[red1]

GOAT james

[Lebron23]

1-9

[baudkarma]

Pretty much every successful player gets hated on. Fans just have to find a reason to justify their hatred for player X. If Magic had joined the Celtics then Lakers fans would have hated him. If Bird had gone to LA, same thing in reverse. Dirk and Duncan have haters, and they're both class acts who have been loyal to their respective franchises. If fans want to hate, they'll find an excuse. Hell, Pat Tillman probably has haters.

[3ba11]

https://i.postimg.cc/xddkw47g/3nutball2.gif


Shannon referred to Lebron today as "top 5 all-time", so the post-prime reduction in ranking is already starting, just like it did for old Kobe

[3ba11]

Pretty much every successful player gets hated on. Fans just have to find a reason to justify their hatred for player X. If Magic had joined the Celtics then Lakers fans would have hated him. If Bird had gone to LA, same thing in reverse. Dirk and Duncan have haters, and they're both class acts who have been loyal to their respective franchises. If fans want to hate, they'll find an excuse. Hell, Pat Tillman probably has haters.


Fans won't find an excuse if there's nothing to hate on like Bird of Magic staying with their original teams.. Otoh, if they started teaming up with opponents and opposing franchise players and cornerstones, then everyone would rightfully hate them for stacking the deck and teaming up with rivals.

[Phoenix]

Shannon referred to Lebron today as "top 5 all-time", so the post-prime reduction in ranking is already starting, just like it did for old Kobe
https://i.postimg.cc/HLPJdt1m/3nutball3.gif

[GimmeThat]

Pretty much every successful player gets hated on. Fans just have to find a reason to justify their hatred for player X. If Magic had joined the Celtics then Lakers fans would have hated him. If Bird had gone to LA, same thing in reverse. Dirk and Duncan have haters, and they're both class acts who have been loyal to their respective franchises. If fans want to hate, they'll find an excuse. Hell, Pat Tillman probably has haters.

there's really no reason for the term 'context' to exist, since it's just a lie.


the origin of the all the "why"

[StrongLurk]

Fans won't find an excuse if there's nothing to hate on like Bird of Magic staying with their original teams.. Otoh, if they started teaming up with opponents and opposing franchise players and cornerstones, then everyone would rightfully hate them for stacking the deck and teaming up with rivals.

It all depends on what team they are leaving and what team they are joining.

Lebron had every right to leave Cleveland after those 7 years because he couldn't get any real talent around him. Kawhi and KD both left MUCH better situations multiple times (as have other superstar over the last 15 years), but I haven't ever seen you complain about them. We know damn well Kobe would've left the Lakers eventually of they never got Pau.

Magic was drafted to an incredible situation, Bird was drafted to a good one (Celtics top 5 org for the NBA), Duncan caught a great break with David Robinson missing all of 1997, Kobe got prime/peak Shaq and good Lakers players right out the gate, Shaq himself got Penny one year later on the Magic, Hakeem was drafted to a bad team but they at least had an elite talent already with Ralph Sampson.

Pretty much only MJ and Lebron were drafted to dogshit situations.

[And1AllDay]

1-9

[Axe]

No pip?

[3ba11]

.
2009 Cavs....... #3 defense
1990 Bulls..... #19 defense

And Mo was far superior to Pippen offensively across the board (scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48)





Lebron had every right to leave Cleveland after those 7 years because he couldn't get any real talent around him.





Dwight and Dirk didn't have good teammates and were big underdogs, but they both made the Finals or won the title.. Guys like Isiah, Hakeem, Jordan, Giannis or Jokic started with nothing but became champions as well.. So Lebron has no excuse for leaving.

Infact, the only reason Lebron didn't win the East in 2010 is because he averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games, which lost a 2-1 lead in historic meltdown and massive upset loss - that's the only reason he didn't face Kobe in the Finals and ran away to form super-teams - it was basically out of embarrassment from losing.

The 2010 Celtics were already fossils and underdogs, so the East was going to be wide open for the next decade with Lebron, Derozan, Bosh, George and Wade battling for supremacy - but Lebron just teamed up with everyone instead.

Finally, Jordan had a worse team in 1990 than Lebron had in 2009 (stats above), but Jordan won the next year while Lebron was SUPPOSED TO WIN in 2010 but had the aforementioned meltdown in the 2nd Round.

So there's no excuse for leaving but his departure is related to his skillset - his skillset of imposing spot-up roles can't develop teammates and therefore needs ready-made stars.

[plowking]

People hate you OP.

[3ba11]

People hate you OP.


Dumb people hate smart people

[Duffy Pratt]

Bird walked onto a 20 win team and instantly made them a champion. McHale was a scrub in the Celtics 1st title win.

Cowens, Archibald, and Maravich were all top 75 players, and all at the end of their careers. They had managed only 29 wins the year before. Bird led them to 62 wins - the biggest impact in win differential ever made by a rookie. They did not win a championship that year. McHale was acquired the next year, and was 6th man (not a scrub) averaging 14 and 8 in 28 minutes per game. It was the Celtics 14th title win. Otherwise, everything you’ve said is perfectly correct.

[Full Court]

Lets not forget OP has Curry top 5 all time while him and peak KD teamed up, but we never hear OP bring that up.

By the time LeBron-Wade were winning chips, Wade was past his prime. Especially in 2013 where he averaged like 15 ppg in the playoff run.

^Bitch fit. :roll:

Man, when is this guy ever gonna stop his meltdowns? He should be used to his hero losing by now.

[3ba11]

Lets not forget OP has Curry top 5 all time while him and peak KD teamed up, but we never hear OP bring that up.

By the time LeBron-Wade were winning chips, Wade was past his prime. Especially in 2013 where he averaged like 15 ppg in the playoff run.


Lebron never won a Finals without 20 ppg from a sidekick and that sidekick was always a franchise player or cornerstone - he never won with supplementary players like Klay, Pippen or Wiggins who peak at the secondary numbers that you chastise Wade for.

Btw, Wade had a 26.3 PER in 2012 and was top 5 in everything (PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP).. And that was with him taking a step back to let Lebron be top dawg.



Lets not forget OP has Curry top 5 all time while him and peak KD teamed up, but we never hear OP bring that up.

By the time LeBron-Wade were winning chips, Wade was past his prime. Especially in 2013 where he averaged like 15 ppg in the playoff run.


History shows that passers like Magic and Lebron need all-time scorers to pass to and a passer's need for scoring help is exacerbated by being too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams.

For example, Magic was massively-upset when he tried to carry the scoring load against KJ's Suns in 1990, which was similar to Lebron losing the 2009 ECF and therefore never beating a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades).

Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry, Kobe, or MJ can score 40 while the ball moves and teammates assist them, so their superior brand can beat top teams at carry-job volume and therefore win with less scoring help, aka secondary-producers at sidekick like Wiggins or Pau, which forces the 1st option to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level).

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron never won a Finals without 20 ppg from a sidekick and that sidekick was always a franchise player or cornerstone - he never won with supplementary players like Klay, Pippen or Wiggins who peak at the secondary numbers that you chastise Wade for.

Btw, Wade had a 26.3 PER in 2012 and was top 5 in everything (PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP).. And that was with him taking a step back to let Lebron be top dawg.

And his PER dropped to 22 in the '12 playoffs, and 18.7 in 2013.

You admitted that you don't watch any games. I did. Wade wasn't near regular season form in two of those playoff runs. In 2012 he started the postseason pretty good, then got noticeably worse from about game 3 vs Boston up until the Finals ended. in 2013 he was even worse. He had to have his knee drained in both postseason runs.

[1987_Lakers]

History shows that passers like Magic and Lebron need all-time scorers to pass to and a passer's need for scoring help is exacerbated by being too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams.

This dude really just called James Worthy ('87 & '88) and 2013 Wade all-time great scorers. :oldlol:

[3ba11]

Wade's PER dropped to 22 in the '12 playoffs





That's 91' pippen... the only viable playoff run that pippen ever had.






Wade had 18.7 PER in 2013 PO.





Same as Pippen for every title run except 91'

So you're complaining about Wade because he fell to prime Pippen level.






You admitted that you don't watch any games. I did. Wade wasn't near regular season form in two of those playoff runs. In 2012 he started the postseason pretty good, then got noticeably worse from about game 3 vs Boston up until the Finals ended. in 2013 he was even worse. He had to have his knee drained in both postseason runs.


Wade averaged 23 and 20 ppg in the 12' and 13' Finals, which was only 5 less than Lebron, so Lebron never carried teams to Finals victory like Curry did.

Wade was a franchise player that Lebron had playing sidekick - any version of Wade was better production than Klay or Wiggins... And Lebron still had Bosh who was better than Klay and Wiggins too despite being reduced to spot-up role in Lebron-ball..

Lebron clearly had more help, which included an 11-time all-star at 3rd option and a sidekick that was better than prime Pippen in 2012, and about the same as prime Pippen from 2013-2016 (21/5/5 and 21 PER).. Fossil Wade nearly led the Heat to the ECF in 2016 with the same numbers as peak Pippen in 94' Playoffs.

[lxlHoTsAuSelxl]

The hate in general is just towards the team known as the Los Angeles Lakers. I mean common, if another team keeps beating my team, winning the finals eventually you'll learn to natural dispise them. The hate gets amplified when you gotta go against the greatest in Kobe, Lebron. Imagine if these noobs where born in the 70-80s during the Laker Showtime era with Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Thompson, Cooper, A.C.Green, Rambis with the current social media? Some of these guys would of probably committed suicide already.

[1987_Lakers]

PER doesn't take into account defense which is something Pippen was way better at compared to Wade. In fact I remember a thread here years ago about "gamescore" which is something you use often, and it showed Pippen often outplayed the opponents #2 option in the postseason. You posted in that thread and had quite a meltdown.

[3ba11]

PER doesn't take into account defense which is something Pippen was way better at compared to Wade. In fact I remember a thread here years ago about "gamescore" which is something you use often, and it showed Pippen often outplayed the opponents #2 option in the postseason. You posted in that thread and had quite a meltdown.


Lebron had more defensive help than Jordan because the 1st three-peat Bulls had the #7 defense, while Lebron had top 5 defenses in 07', 09', 11', 12', 20', 21' (and #7 in 2010).

So Lebron usually had more defensive help and ALWAYS had more rebounding help because Jordan had 3 guys average 7+ rebounds for him (pippen, grant, rodman), while Lebron had dozens (Zydrunas, Gooden, Wallace, Shaq, Varejao, Jamison, Mosgov, Tristan, Bosh, Birdman, Haslem, Love, AD, Dwight, McGee).

And Lebron had far more rim protection by having many guys average 1.5 blocks (Zydrunas, Shaq, Mosgov, AD, McGee, Birdman, Bosh, and more) compared to only a couple guys for Jordan (longley, horace).




PER doesn't take into account defense which is something Pippen was way better at compared to Wade. In fact I remember a thread here years ago about "gamescore" which is something you use often, and it showed Pippen often outplayed the opponents #2 option in the postseason. You posted in that thread and had quite a meltdown.


Here's a quick example - Terry Porter shot 53% on threes (6 attempts) and averaged 26/4/8 in the 92' WCF to carry the Blazers to the Finals, but then he wet the bed against the Bulls with 16 ppg on horrific efficiency.

Accordingly, the opposing 2nd options were mostly guards that drastically underperformed against MJ (Porter, KJ, Hornacek, Stockton, Payton, Starks, Dumars, Hersey Hawkins (PHI), Penny, Price/Harper (CLE), Tim Hardaway (MIA), Steve Smith (97' ATL).

Otherwise, most of these guys carried their teams in numerous big series and were far superior scorers with much higher peak capability (worthy of scouting report) than a transition and system player like Pippen.

[plowking]

Same as Pippen for every title run except 91'

So you're complaining about Wade because he fell to prime Pippen level.


.


Why lie?

5 of Pippen's runs were above an 18 PER. Also Pippen's 91 run is statistically and impact wise > Wade's 2013 title run.

Pippen was a better second option. This is all without taking defense into account which is hardly factored in via PER. Pip was far and away a better defender than Wade at that point in his career, who was a net negative on defense by their last run at the title.

Then we had Horace Grant who was another defensive beast who let Jordan rest on that end and roam, and just be able to focus on offense. Meanwhile - LeBron had to be the defensive anchor as well as lead all major categories on offense.

There is a reason in Bron 3 runs to the finals as the Heat number 1 option he had a higher PER and WS per 48 than MJ in his first 3 peat and his second 3 peat. He needed to. He needed to do more to win.

[3ba11]

Why lie?

5 of Pippen's runs were above an 18 PER. Also Pippen's 91 run is statistically and impact wise > Wade's 2013 title run.





Where's the lie?

You said that Wade had a 18.7 PER in the 13' Playoffs, which compares well to Pippen's 16.9-19.5 PER in 4 of his title runs.

So Wade's 22 PER in 2012 matches Pippen's best run of 1991, while Wade's worst title of 18.7 exceeds Pippen's worst by a lot (16.9 PER in 93') and matches Pippen's other runs






Pippen was a better second option.





Pippen was never a 2nd option.

He was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer

Any other team would have other scorers to bump him down to 3rd or 7th option like we saw in Houston or Portland.






This is all without taking defense into account





Lebron had better defensive casts than Jordan, which includes FAR superior rebounding help or rim protection and better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls in 07', 09', 10', 11', 12', 20', 21'






Lebron had to be the defensive anchor





Lebron wasn't required to be a good defender for half his chips (no all-defense in his 30's), so you're just talking out of your ass

Jordan was required to be 1st team defense and get more DPOY votes than Pippen every year except 96' and 97' - he was also the primary defender on the opponent's best player like Magic, Drexler or Payton..

So again, you're talking out of your ass - MJ is in the conversation for goat defender for a non-big, while Lebron is nowhere near and a matador most of the time - he was a liability that gave up 4 FMVP's to his matchup.. This includes stars like Kawhi and KD or benchwarmers like 2015 Iggy.






There is a reason in Bron 3 runs to the finals as the Heat number 1 option he had a higher PER and WS per 48 than MJ in his first 3 peat and his second 3 peat. He needed to. He needed to do more to win.


Even when we baby Lebron and omit 2011, Jordan still destroys Lebron in this particular argument and here's why:

Due to super-team casts, Lebron enjoyed an efficiency advantage by never having to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry the scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title run)

So the stats are deceiving - Jordan basically matched Lebron in PER and WS despite facing maximum defensive attention, while Lebron's teammates were franchise players and equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (near-equal-scoring partners).

And again, if we have to exclude 2011, then Jordan wins automatically.. There's no such thing as babying the real GOAT

[plowking]

Where's the lie?

You said that Wade had a 18.7 PER in the 13' Playoffs, which is the same as Pippen's 19 PER in 5 of his title runs.



You're comparing one title run to 5 cumulative. He had several that were significantly better than that Wade run. Just because it is skewed by one poor PER run - stop trying to skew the stats because of a heavy outlier.



Pippen was never a 2nd option.

He was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer

Any other team would have other scorers to bump him down to 3rd or 7th option like we saw in Houston or Portland.


Yes he was. In fact he was one of the better scoring second options in the league. Along with that - as a first option he led the Bulls to 55 wins and 47 wins. That is a respectable 1st option. That is better than the likes of KAT, Grant Hill, Stackhouse, etc - who you have at times tried to play off as better options than Pippen lol.




Lebron had better defensive casts than Jordan, which includes FAR superior rebounding help or rim protection and better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls in 07', 09', 10', 11', 12', 20', 21'

Name me all the All NBA defensive players Jordan played with compared to Bron at the time they were playing. How about naming all the DPOY's they played with barely removed from winning the award?

Wrong again - and good try lying.



Lebron wasn't required to be a good defender for half his chips (no all-defense in his 30's), so you're just talking out of your ass

Jordan was required to be 1st team defense and get more DPOY votes than Pippen every year except 96' and 97' - he was also the primary defender on the opponent's best player like Magic, Drexler or Payton..

So again, you're talking out of your ass - MJ is in the conversation for goat defender for a non-big, while Lebron is nowhere near and a matador most of the time - he was a liability that gave up 4 FMVP's to his matchup.. This includes stars like Kawhi and KD or benchwarmers like 2015 Iggy.

Jordan at his peak was a better defender than MJ.




Due to super-team casts, Lebron enjoyed an efficiency advantage by never having to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry the scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title run)

We've already proven that Jordan's team was more stacked and advanced statistics prove he carried a lesser burden in his titles. This has been proved through PER, WS per 48, etc. These are facts. Bron had a higher PER and WS per 48. Your logic, not mine.
Therefore Bron statistically did more than Jordan.


So the stats are deceiving - Jordan basically matched Lebron in PER and WS despite facing maximum defensive attention, while Lebron's teammates were franchise players and equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (near-equal-scoring partners).

Prove he faced more defensive attention. Pippen was as capable a scorer as Wade in the second option role - and Jordan had the GOAT 3 point shooter by efficiency in Kerr on his team opening up the court.


And again, if we have to exclude 2011, then Jordan wins automatically.. There's no such thing as babying the real GOAT

Sure - an outlier and black mark in a GOAT career.

The point is - even when he did have to win - he had to do more. All proven by stats. Advanced metrics and raw numbers show Bron had to do more and in more categories. Bron had to be the scorer as well as the utility guy all in one, while also having to guard the best player. Meanwhile Jordan has the GOAT perimeter defender next to him in Pippen, Horace Grant, and another DPOY player in Rodman. Oh the luxury.

[3ba11]

You're comparing one title run to 5 cumulative. He had several that were significantly better than that Wade run. Just because it is skewed by one poor PER run - stop trying to skew the stats because of a heavy outlier.





The outlier is Pippen's 16.9 PER in the 93' Playoffs, which is the worst PER for a winning sidekick ever

So Wade's 22 PER in 2012 matches Pippen's best run of 1991, while Wade's worst title of 18.7 exceeds Pippen's worst by a lot (16.9 in 93') and also exceeds Pippen's 97' run (18.1)






Along with that - as a first option he led the Bulls to 55 wins





Pippen won 55 by inheriting a 3-peat dynasty but destroyed the team in Year 2 (borderline lottery before MJ returned).

So any team with a supplementary player like Pippen or Klay as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty like we saw in 95' before MJ returned..

Only true franchise players and cornerstones like Barkley, Embiid or KD can grow teams and keep them in contention each year.. Pippen did the opposite by destroying a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months and then begging MJ to return.






Lebron at his peak was a better defender than MJ.





Right that's why Lebron won DPOY and broke records by being the first guy to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season like MJ did twice.

lol... Lebron never got DPOY and never got 200 steals OR 100 blocks in a season.






We've already proven that Jordan's team was more stacked





https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-09-2023/K9U1HQ.gif


Even without the 2011 season, Jordan destroyed Lebron in BPM and matched him in PER or WS despite downward pressure on the primary driver of these stats (efficiency) from facing maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load).






Prove he faced more defensive attention.





Equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).

Lebron had franchise players and cornerstones like Wade, AD and Kyrie to match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES...

So it's night and day - Jordan or Curry carried supplementary players like Pippen and Klay, while Lebron had franchise players to dominate for him - Lebron is the only guy with sidekicks that outplayed league MVP's (Curry, Jokic, Dirk).. Having teammates outplay league MVP's is the most help possible.







an outlier and black mark in a GOAT career.





Lebron was a -500 favorite to win the 2010 2nd Round but lost a 2-1 lead because he averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games - this was a historic meltdown that the media ignored..

After the 2010 and 2011 meltdowns, he averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games of the 13' Finals, while teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit.. His 23 on 43% through 6 games amounted to another goat choke but Ray Allen saved him...

Then he melted down in the 2014 Finals with cramps and record loss (his team gave up on national TV) and then he melted down in the 18' Finals over JR's blunder and disappeared in OT.. Then he melted down over the no-call this year vs Tatum - Lebron is simply a meltdown machine... And he's has a shaky hand in the clutch (12 TO's per 48 minutes in clutch time of the 09' ECF, aka impossible to win)







The point is - even when he did have to win - he had to do more. All proven by stats






PLAYOFFS

06-14' Lebron...... 28/8/6 on 49%
85-93' Jordan...... 35/7/7 on 50%


So Lebron passed less than Jordan for half their chips and wasn't required to be a good defender for the other half (no all-defense in his 30's)..

Lebron only started averaging more playoff assists than Jordan when Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone starting in 2015.

Of course Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention either and always needed franchise players at sidekick (couldn't win with secondary producers or supplementary players at sidekick).






Name me all the All NBA defensive players Jordan played with compared to Bron at the time they were playing. How about naming all the DPOY's they played with barely removed from winning the award?

Wrong again - and good try lying.





Lebron had better rim protectors, rebounders, athletic guards, and team defenses, while Jordan was stuck with zero rim protection, 1 rebounder and unathletic guard teammates..

lebron also played with more teammates that had all-defense on their resume like Battier, Hughes, Wade, AD or Varejao






Yes he was. In fact he was one of the better scoring second options in the league.





Pippen peak capability was about 20 points IN THE SYSTEM (worse than prime Jeff Green outside the system) - this is statistical fact and it's the worst scoring capability among 90's sidekicks - there was no need to gameplan for a low efficiency, non-shooting transition hustler and system player.

He wasn't a player that pundits labeled a "scorer" and he couldn't break his man down off-the-dribble or create his own shot in the halfcourt - literally worthless down the stretch of tight games like Andre Roberson or something.. He wasn't a go-to player and this is common knowledge (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=114s).

[plowking]

The outlier is Pippen's 16.9 PER in the 93' Playoffs, which is the worst PER for a winning sidekick ever

So Wade's 22 PER in 2012 matches Pippen's best run of 1991, while Wade's worst title of 18.7 exceeds Pippen's worst by a lot (16.9 in 93') and also exceeds Pippen's 97' run (18.1)






Pippen won 55 by inheriting a 3-peat dynasty but destroyed the team in Year 2 (borderline lottery before MJ returned).

So any team with a supplementary player like Pippen or Klay as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty like we saw in 95' before MJ returned..

Only true franchise players and cornerstones like Barkley, Embiid or KD can grow teams and keep them in contention each year.. Pippen did the opposite by destroying a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months and then begging MJ to return.






Right that's why Lebron won DPOY and broke records by being the first guy to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season like MJ did twice.

lol... Lebron never got DPOY and never got 200 steals OR 100 blocks in a season.






https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-09-2023/K9U1HQ.gif


Even without the 2011 season, Jordan destroyed Lebron in BPM and matched him in PER or WS despite downward pressure on the primary driver of these stats (efficiency) from facing maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load).






Equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).

Lebron had franchise players and cornerstones like Wade, AD and Kyrie to match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES...

So it's night and day - Jordan or Curry carried supplementary players like Pippen and Klay, while Lebron had franchise players to dominate for him - Lebron is the only guy with sidekicks that outplayed league MVP's (Curry, Jokic, Dirk).. Having teammates outplay league MVP's is the most help possible.






Lebron was a -500 favorite to win the 2010 2nd Round but lost a 2-1 lead because he averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games - this was a historic meltdown that the media ignored..

After the 2010 and 2011 meltdowns, he averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games of the 13' Finals, while teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit.. His 23 on 43% through 6 games amounted to another goat choke but Ray Allen saved him...

Then he melted down in the 2014 Finals with cramps and record loss (his team gave up on national TV) and then he melted down in the 18' Finals over JR's blunder and disappeared in OT.. Then he melted down over the no-call this year vs Tatum - Lebron is simply a meltdown machine... And he's has a shaky hand in the clutch (12 TO's per 48 minutes in clutch time of the 09' ECF, aka impossible to win)







PLAYOFFS

06-14' Lebron...... 28/8/6 on 49%
85-93' Jordan...... 35/7/7 on 50%


So Lebron passed less than Jordan for half their chips and wasn't required to be a good defender for the other half (no all-defense in his 30's)..

Lebron only started averaging more playoff assists than Jordan when Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone starting in 2015.

Of course Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention either and always needed franchise players at sidekick (couldn't win with secondary producers or supplementary players at sidekick).






Lebron had better rim protectors, rebounders, athletic guards, and team defenses, while Jordan was stuck with zero rim protection, 1 rebounder and unathletic guard teammates..

lebron also played with more teammates that had all-defense on their resume like Battier, Hughes, Wade, AD or Varejao






Pippen peak capability was about 20 points IN THE SYSTEM (worse than prime Jeff Green outside the system) - this is statistical fact and it's the worst scoring capability among 90's sidekicks - there was no need to gameplan for a low efficiency, non-shooting transition hustler and system player.

He wasn't a player that pundits labeled a "scorer" and he couldn't break his man down off-the-dribble or create his own shot in the halfcourt - literally worthless down the stretch of tight games like Andre Roberson or something.. He wasn't a go-to player and this is common knowledge (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=114s).


Damn long way to say you're wrong and I'm correct.

Actually I'm not even correct, the stats are. Which prove Jordan had more stacked teams, and Bron had to do more. I can't go against the stats.

[3ba11]

Damn long way to say you're wrong and I'm correct.

Actually I'm not even correct, the stats are. Which prove Jordan had more stacked teams, and Bron had to do more. I can't go against the stats.


Actually, I realized that when we look at the years Lebron won like 12' and 13', his playoff PER & WS was less than Jordan's winning years (91-93').

You included a year that he lost (14'), which should be compared to Jordan's losses like 1990 (31.7 PER)

So no, you're wrong

That's why Jordan has higher advanced stats for their career and is #1 all-time (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP seasons) - it's because he had higher numbers when we compare his winning seasons to other players, and higher numbers in his losing years.

All the facts and details were presented in the previous post that you can't refute

[tpols]

Damn long way to say you're wrong and I'm correct.

Actually I'm not even correct, the stats are. Which prove Jordan had more stacked teams, and Bron had to do more. I can't go against the stats.

Winning 2 3peats with Pippen and Horace Grant and old Rodman isn't stacked bro. Teaming up with guys like prime Wade and many others is. That would be like prime Barkley and MJ playing on the sun's together instead of competing with each other.