Pippen says young Jordan was horrible to play with.

[Kblaze8855]

Prepare to have this everywhere

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2305270233580315.jpeg

[Keno]

well said :applause:

this isn't anything new though, pippen is just expressing what the media is afraid to.

[tpols]

Pippen is an extremely spiteful and delusional individual.

[highwhey]

we been knowing this

[GimmeThat]

really, cadet kirk, a full stop while we're at warp during a rescue mission

red alert

[L.Kizzle]

His ex wife is getting dunked on by Jordan's son ... I'd say the same thing as Pippen right now too. Lol.

[GimmeThat]

His ex wife is getting dunked on by Jordan's son ... I'd say the same thing as Pippen right now too. Lol.

still, if it was Pippens fault, why is he blaming Jordan.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Pippen made Jordan?

[AlternativeAcc.]

Pippen and Phil taught Jordan how to win, albeit in a mickey mouse league.

I will always give Pippen equal credit for those titles.

[GimmeThat]

Pippen made Jordan?

it's somewhere along the line of Scottie Pippen made Michael Jordan, but Scottie Maurice Pippen did not make Michael Jeffrey Jordan

[Kblaze8855]

He(and many at the time) are obviously talking about being horrible as a teammate not literally bad but you can bet people are gonna pretend that’s what he meant. It’s probably like how when Bird had this 50 point game:



https://youtu.be/KwyozRBxSQE



Which the Celtics lost by 1. Walton told him in the locker room he was the worst player on the floor that night and Bird actually agreed. They started spreading the ball a bit more and won 14 straight and the title.

One of those things. Not literally bad. Just not letting others play.

Sounds bad though.

[lxlHoTsAuSelxl]

I understand why Pippen sour, wife getting slammed by Jordan's son. Surprised he didnt say anything about Malik Beasley.

[GimmeThat]

One of those things. Not literally bad. Just not letting others play.


not this again, the team were not on the same page on lower body workouts

[3ba11]

.
This ungrateful wretch was letting Oakley ragdoll the crap out of him when he was a scrawny, rookie shitting his diapers, but now he can talk down on the GOAT???

Pippen was NEVER a franchise player like Embiid, Barkley or KD - he was a supplementary player like Klay that would be "just another guy" without a generational offensive talent to elevate his resume to media accolade.

Most of Jordan's teammates fell off dramatically once they were outside the dynasty system - Pippen cratered in Houston, while BJ and Longley were relegated to the bench on expansion teams after 3-peating with MJ as starters.



1988 Pippen.... 7.9
1989 Pippen.... 14.0
1990 Pippen.... all-star
1991 Pippen.... champion


So Pippen grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ - ditto Horace and BJ.. Very few players have Jordan's exceptional record of teammate development - it's one of the best ever.

Pippen is lucky that Jordan wasn't a ball- dominator that imposed spot-up roles and horrific fits like Lebron had with Ingram, Westbrook, Hughes or Kuzma - Kuzma was going to be a 12 ppg player for his career until he escaped Lebron.

Instead, Jordan was an off-guard, so Pippen had the ball in his hands with the goat assist target off-ball to make his job easier and bail him out if needed - that's how young ball-handlers grow.. Jordan played the same way Lebron did in 2023 that allowed Austin Reaves to go bananas.. The difference is that Jordan could average 35 off-ball and yield a perennial favorite, while Lebron could barely get 20 off-ball and had his typical whimpering underdog.

[warriorfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSNno0nBxMI

[Soundwave]

Everyone knows Jordan's son is f**king Scottie's ex-wife and there's a giant agenda in him now all of the sudden saying tons of crap about Jordan, Phil Jackson, etc. etc. etc.

https://www.narcity.com/media-library/larsa-pippen-and-marcus-jordan.jpg?id=32931260&width=1245&height=700&coordinates=6%2C0%2C0%2C0

The funny thing is Jordan has never said a bad thing about Pippen ever, always gone out of his way to compliment him, always is clear in giving him his props, but Pippen is a spiteful dude.

[hateraid]

Of course the Jordaneers miss the point. All Pippen was saying Jordan was a ballhog and it wasn't conducive to winning.

[3ba11]

Everyone knows Jordan's son is f**king Scottie's ex-wife and there's a giant agenda in him now all of the sudden saying tons of crap about Jordan, Phil Jackson, etc. etc. etc.

https://www.narcity.com/media-library/larsa-pippen-and-marcus-jordan.jpg?id=32931260&width=1245&height=700&coordinates=6%2C0%2C0%2C0

The funny thing is Jordan has never said a bad thing about Pippen ever, always gone out of his way to compliment him, always is clear in giving him his props, but Pippen is a spiteful dude.


His spite stems from an insecurity that he was carried

This is understandable -. imagine you're a 2nd option and you never get close to the 1st option statistically in any series and never averaged more than about 20 while the 1st option gets 30-40 in every series.. No other sidekick is bending their neck so hard to look up at the 1st option

It's funny because how could a scrawny 7 ppg rookie that grew by leaps each year think anyone was *hard to play with "?? Rookie Pippen had no standing and never thought that - he's just revising history

[JohnMax]

https://twitter.com/BarryOnHere/status/1661748853870297089

[FultzNationRISE]

I understand why Pippen sour, wife getting slammed by Jordan's son. Surprised he didnt say anything about Malik Beasley.


I dont get this narrative.

Sloppy seconds on a gold digger/professional skeez, and one her age no less, isnt really a win tbh.

If I was Pippen Id be laughing.

[Soundwave]

I mean I get it, having your teammate's son f**king your wife is a massive public embarrassment. Pippen probably still has feelings for Larsa, from what I understand he was trying to reconcile with her.

If you're Jordan though really, like what can you do? They're adults, Marcus Jordan is 32 years old. Larsa Pippen knows what she's doing hoping aboard the Jordan express.

Pippen going to be mad at you for that, but you can't really do anything about it. Grown adults gonna f**k, you can't order your grown son around on who he dates.

About the Last Dance doc, I mean Pippen is angry because it dared to show that he did willingly not go back into a do or die playoff game and it highlighted him refusing to get surgery in the last Bulls season ... all of which happened.

I mean what are you supposed to do if you're Michael Jordan. It's not like you're a film editor who's going to say "no, we can't cover anything negative on Scottie, even though the doc did highlight Jordan's gambling troubles and Rodman's crazy unprofessionalism, Pip is the only one complaining.

It's too bad, I don't think this rift will ever be healed, think Scottie will be slinging shit at Jordan, Phil Jackson, Bulls org, etc. etc. etc., just how he rolls.

[3ba11]

I dont get this .

If I was Pippen Id be laughing.


Sure but Pippen isn't - he's losing his mind

[3ba11]

I mean I get it, having your teammate's son f**king your wife is a massive public embarrassment. Pippen probably still has feelings for Larsa.

If you're Jordan though really, like what can you do? They're adults, Marcus Jordan is 32 years old. Larsa Pippen knows what she's doing hoping aboard the Jordan express.

Pippen going to be mad at you for that, but you can't really do anything about it. Grown adults gonna f**k, you can't order your grown son around on who he dates.

About the Last Dance doc, I mean Pippen is angry because it dared to show that he did willingly not go back into a do or die playoff game and it highlighted him refusing to get surgery in the last Bulls season ... all of which happened.

I mean what are you supposed to do if you're Michael Jordan. It's not like you're a film editor who's going to say "no, we can't cover anything negative on Scottie, even though the doc did highlight Jordan's gambling troubles and Rodman's crazy unprofessionalism, Pip is the only one complaining.


Boom

[AlternativeAcc.]

Sure but Pippen isn't - he's losing his mind

His dick is twice the size of Jordan's conformed by Madonna

Everything he says stems from a place of superiority and confidence. He is laughing because jordans son inherited his small dick and isn't pleasing her, despite being 30 years younger

[Soundwave]

His dick is twice the size of Jordan's conformed by Madonna

Everything he says stems from a place of superiority and confidence. He is laughing because jordans son inherited his small dick and isn't pleasing her, despite being 30 years younger

Why's she f**king Jordan Jr. then instead of with Pippen. Scottie looks like a chump in this whole situation, it's why he's mad. I don't even blame him per se, but he can't seriously think like MJ even wants this situation.

Imagine Kyrie's son or something f**king LeBron's wife, lol.

[GimmeThat]

Why's she f**king Jordan Jr. then instead of with Pippen. Scottie looks like a chump in this whole situation, it's why he's mad. I don't even blame him per se, but he can't seriously think like MJ even wants this situation.

Imagine Kyrie's son or something f**king LeBron's wife, lol.

seems like you just want to sound different

[Soundwave]

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/c_fit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw _620/MTk2NDM2ODA1Mjg3OTQ1MzY2/larsa-marcus-1.jpg

https://pagesix.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2023/01/larsa-pippen-marcus-jordan-pda-date-night.jpg?quality=75&strip=all

Larsa knows damn well what she's doing, lol. I gotta say, relative to her age, she looks a good 10 years younger at least. If I didn't know who she was, I would assume she's 33-37.

[AlternativeAcc.]

His dick is twice the size of Jordan's conformed by Madonna

Everything he says stems from a place of superiority and confidence. He is laughing because jordans son inherited his small dick and isn't pleasing her, despite being 30 years younger

They got divorced

And Mike's son dating a 50 year old who Pippen stretched out for years is the most beta thing I've ever seen. Learned well from his pops.

The Jordan's are known for sloppy 2nds, ask Madonna.

[Soundwave]

Gotta admit Larsa looks like she knows how to suck a mean dick, lol, cuz Marcus could land a lot of hot women in their 20s/30s just based on who he is.

[GimmeThat]

Gotta admit Larsa looks like she knows how to suck a mean dick, lol, cuz Marcus could land a lot of hot women in their 20s/30s just based on who he is.

not sure how a woman being unable to make a living without putting out has lead you to your conclusion.

the girl is going after her ex-husbands long time teammates son, do you know how you ought to be able to conclude she was dumped

because that's called being a gold digger

[Axe]

Yikes, that's a roast. :oldlol:

https://media.tenor.com/VfocajfKFUIAAAAC/eww-umm-no.gif

[SATAN]

lol@the MJ stans who rushed in to slander Pippen about his ex and completely avoided Pippen's account of what Mikey was like as a teammate back in the day.

:facepalm

[Full Court]

lol@the MJ stans who rushed in to slander Pippen about his ex and completely avoided Pippen's account of what Mikey was like as a teammate back in the day.

:facepalm

^Bitch fit.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2F9e10d cacd2226e3f64209cbc5ebd13cd%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3 D10647085&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=541913fbd7fd117f11e549be3a1c61ac9525b58c9a5bc5 017a7d661cb960c29d&ipo=images

[Full Court]

We've known that about MJ since the 90s. Especially after the book The Jordan Rules came out.

The difference between Jordan and a lot of other players though, is that he changed his game, was coachable, learned how to win with his team, and three-peated twice.

Without MJ, Pippen wouldn't have a single ring, so he shouldn't be such a bitter crybaby.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Pip has been angry ever since he got burned in Last Dance. MJ son taking his woman certainly didn't help matters though Pip unfortunately didn't think deeper than her appearance when he wifed her, that one is on Pip and MJ son for being kind of weird. Respect Jordan's competitive drive but as much credit and respect as he gets he didn't need to embarrass Pippen like that. It was petty of him. So Pip seems like he will hold a grudge and be bitter for the rest of their lives. As much as they accomplished together that's really too bad.

[GimmeThat]

https://media.tenor.com/VfocajfKFUIAAAAC/eww-umm-no.gif

I suppose that necklace of God didn't keep Jay-Z out of trouble

[Soundwave]

Nothing goes together like Jordan and Pippen, lulz

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fhi4UuXWIAMWfvp?format=jpg&name=medium

Scottie rode Jordan to 6 chips, now Larsa riding Marcus' dong straight to that $400 million+ inheritance. :oldlol:

[GimmeThat]

Scottie rode Jordan to 6 chips, now Larsa riding Marcus' dong straight to that $400 million+ inheritance. :oldlol:

she probably tells him "fake breasts are bad, fake pussys are bad, and a good ole ass pounding makes you weak"

[theman93]

Jordan was so horrible to play with that Pippen begged him to come out of retirement to play with him again on national television

https://media.giphy.com/media/JO9l9C4I21g4M/giphy.gif

[SATAN]

Jordan was so horrible to play with that Pippen begged him to come out of retirement to play with him again on national television

https://media.giphy.com/media/JO9l9C4I21g4M/giphy.gif

Pip was merely taunting MJ about Madonna.

[Soundwave]

Jordan was so horrible to play with that Pippen begged him to come out of retirement to play with him again on national television

https://media.giphy.com/media/JO9l9C4I21g4M/giphy.gif

Think Larsa did the same thing to Marcus just with no clothes on, lol.

[ELITEpower23]

well said :applause:

this isn't anything new though, pippen is just expressing what the media is afraid to.

+1

Everyone knows MJ was a 1-9 chucking failure until

ALONG CAME SCOTTIE

[Full Court]

+1

Everyone knows MJ was a 1-9 chucking failure until

ALONG CAME SCOTTIE

Nah, very low IQ take. Not surprising though, seeing who you choose to idolize.

It was Phil Jackson coming along that straightened MJ out. Pippen had nothing to do with it.

[ELITEpower23]

I dont get this narrative.

Sloppy seconds on a gold digger/professional skeez, and one her age no less, isnt really a win tbh.

If I was Pippen Id be laughing.

+1

It's a knock on Pippen's slutty wife-NOT Pippen.

[ELITEpower23]

Nah, very low IQ take. Not surprising though, seeing who you choose to idolize.

It was Phil Jackson coming along that straightened MJ out. Pippen had nothing to do with it.

F a l s e

Next

[kawhileonard2]

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/jordanpippen_090910.jpg




“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”




“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a
mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”



Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”





------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html

Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html



Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.
[/quote]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html



Sam: I remember Jordan helping Pippen with this. In Pippen’s first several seasons, he rarely got calls on drives. Jordan used to show him — we were permitted to watch practice then — how to drive into contact and then react to the contact. Pippen used to practice it all the time with Jordan showing him.

[Lebron23]

https://scontent.fmnl8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/349292664_209548471421266_7817920962232245970_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=CpdzxwqVjoMAX--KYRp&_nc_ht=scontent.fmnl8-1.fna&oh=00_AfCeII4c6-KzBfaanLFQg7K6q99drMDQmcxLYQmqNulWVw&oe=647692DE

[Soundwave]

https://scontent.fmnl8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/349292664_209548471421266_7817920962232245970_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=CpdzxwqVjoMAX--KYRp&_nc_ht=scontent.fmnl8-1.fna&oh=00_AfCeII4c6-KzBfaanLFQg7K6q99drMDQmcxLYQmqNulWVw&oe=647692DE

That doesn't really paint Pippen in a great light. Jordan's always been complimentary and gave Scottie a lot of props any time he's been asked.

Pippen meanwhile is kind of like a 13 year old with mood swings all over the place.

Kinda telling that when Kukoc was recently inducted into the Hall of Fame, he chose Jordan and Phil Jackson to welcome him in and left Pippen out.

Granted in this sense, I get it, having a teammate's son hooking up with your wife in a very public way would likely be a kick in the nuts to anyone, even though this is not Jordan's fault (they're two adults, what can you do).

[Airupthere]

https://scontent.fmnl8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/349292664_209548471421266_7817920962232245970_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=CpdzxwqVjoMAX--KYRp&_nc_ht=scontent.fmnl8-1.fna&oh=00_AfCeII4c6-KzBfaanLFQg7K6q99drMDQmcxLYQmqNulWVw&oe=647692DE

Put MJ on the 1990s Utah Jazz, I bet the MJ on the Bulls does not get a ring.

[Soundwave]

Put MJ on the 1990s Utah Jazz, I bet the MJ on the Bulls does not get a ring.

You mean Jordan with Karl Malone? Are you kidding me? He'd win 7 or 8 titles.

[ImKobe]

He got cucked by Malik Beasley & MJ's son :oldlol: that's why he's lashing out.

[red1]

Im tired of all of the jordan slander



jordan was a bald sociopath with zero fashion sense, but that doesnt mean he wasnt the GOAT (of his era)

[ImKobe]

pinoy midget


That makes it even worse.. Jordan always gave Pippen more credit than he deserved, but Pip in return couldn't handle the fact that he was in Jordan's shadow the entire time, even though he was never close to as good. Imagine getting carried in every single series for all 6 of those title runs and you turn on your big dog like that.

THREE 30-point games total in 6 title runs, and he still thinks he didn't get enough credit. Pride is a mf.


Im tired of all of the jordan slander



jordan was a bald sociopath with zero fashion sense, but that doesnt mean he wasnt the GOAT (better than Lebron by a mile)

Agreed.

[red1]

That makes it even worse.. Jordan always gave Pippen more credit than he deserved, but Pip in return couldn't handle the fact that he was in Jordan's shadow the entire time, even though he was never close to as good. Imagine getting carried in every single series for all 6 of those title runs and you turn on your big dog like that.

THREE 30-point games total in 6 title runs, and he still thinks he didn't get enough credit. Pride is a mf.



Agreed.

these kobe fans need to sit down

jordan's own teammate reps lebron


youtube.com/watch?v=7MG8wjJNdf4&t=50s&ab_channel=ESPN

[red1]

jordan outclasses kobe, but so does lebron



that debate is over

[ImKobe]

these kobe fans need to sit down

jordan's own teammate reps lebron


youtube.com/watch?v=7MG8wjJNdf4&t=50s&ab_channel=ESPN

MJ ruled with an iron fist. I don't think many people liked him in general with how much of a dickhead he was.

Lebron seems like a really nice guy in comparison, but we all know he's a passive-aggressive bitch who you'd absolutely hate playing with.

I don't think Scottie understands how good he had it with MJ. Imagine if Jordan threw Pip under the bus like Bran did with Kevin Love, who became a scapegoat his whole time in Cleveland. Kyrie was Bran's #2 and only lasted until 2017, and he was willing to sabotage his entire 2018 season if the Cavs didn't trade him out of there.


Pip thought he was the man in '94 but we all saw what happened in the POs. Phil trusted a rookie over him to win the game and he quit on the team. :oldlol: Imagine if MJ ever did that :oldlol: .

[red1]

MJ ruled with an iron fist. I don't think many people liked him in general with how much of a dickhead he was.

Lebron seems like a really nice guy in comparison, but we all know he's a passive-aggressive bitch who you'd absolutely hate playing with.

I don't think Scottie understands how good he had it with MJ. Imagine if Jordan threw Pip under the bus like Bran did with Kevin Love, who became a scapegoat his whole time in Cleveland. Kyrie was Bran's #2 and only lasted until 2017, and he was willing to sabotage his entire 2018 season if the Cavs didn't trade him out of there.


Pip thought he was the man in '94 but we all saw what happened in the POs. Phil trusted a rookie over him to win the game and he quit on the team. :oldlol: Imagine if MJ ever did that :oldlol: .

bro we're talking about basketball ability


jordan was an all-time gifted athlete but lebron is equally gifted if not moreso



leGOAT would run through the 90's competition like it was the eastern conference - while missing every jumpshot and missing 30% of his freethrows





even skip bayless admits lebron has the highest basketball IQ in the league and has overwhelming physical advantages




Im just a fan of greatness

[red1]

mentality is important and I respect the jordan kobe mentality more than the modern mentality - that doesnt make a big difference though


its all about ABILITY



ie what can you do on the court

[1987_Lakers]

MJ ruled with an iron fist. I don't think many people liked him in general with how much of a dickhead he was.

Lebron seems like a really nice guy in comparison, but we all know he's a passive-aggressive bitch who you'd absolutely hate playing with.

I don't think Scottie understands how good he had it with MJ. Imagine if Jordan threw Pip under the bus like Bran did with Kevin Love, who became a scapegoat his whole time in Cleveland. Kyrie was Bran's #2 and only lasted until 2017, and he was willing to sabotage his entire 2018 season if the Cavs didn't trade him out of there.

Is that why Kevin Love invited LeBron to his wedding not too long ago and they are still good friends to this day?

Kyrie already came out and said he was wrong in the Cleveland situation and now we just saw him attend a Lakers playoff game with him and LeBron dabbing it up.

Then you have guys like Smush Parker who said playing with Kobe was an overrated experience.

[ImKobe]

bro we're talking about basketball ability


jordan was an all-time gifted athlete but lebron is equally gifted if not moreso



leGOAT would run through the 90's competition like it was the eastern conference - while missing every jumpshot and missing 30% of his freethrows





even skip bayless admits lebron has the highest basketball IQ in the league and has overwhelming physical advantages




Im just a fan of greatness

Yeah, and Jordan was more skilled than Lebron. MJ had the GOAT athletic ability and was also arguably the GOAT mid-range scorer, which is why his production was so damn consistent for his entire career in Chicago.

Bran has the edge as a passer, but even then the gap is not that great to make me put him on Jordan's level purely from a skill standpoint. Imagine if Bran had MJ's ability from mid-range and/or the post... we'd be having a real conversation about him as the GOAT instead of the trolling we do here.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Is that why Kevin Love invited LeBron to his wedding not too long ago and they are still good friends to this day?

Kyrie already came out and said he was wrong in the Cleveland situation and now we just saw him attend a Lakers playoff game with him and LeBron dabbing it up.

Then you have guys like Smush Parker who said playing with Kobe was an overrated experience.

The redeem team doc shed a lot of light on how Kobe and lebron are with teammates. Kobe was a social outcast and loner. Hard working mofo but very self oriented.

Lebron was the glue keeping everyone laughing but also stern enough in practice to get the most out of his teammates. He's the best of both worlds as a leader, Kobe was one-dimensional and thus alienated a ton of his teammates.

[red1]

Yeah, and Jordan was more skilled than Lebron. MJ had the GOAT athletic ability and was also arguably the GOAT mid-range scorer, which is why his production was so damn consistent for his entire career in Chicago.

Bran has the edge as a passer, but even then the gap is not that great to make me put him on Jordan's level purely from a skill standpoint. Imagine if Bran had MJ's ability from mid-range and/or the post... we'd be having a real conversation about him as the GOAT instead of the trolling we do here.

yeah jordan was a better shooter


I agree



your point? do you think jordan and pippen are stopping lebron and kyrie? :oldlol:

[red1]

they needed to stack the deck and add kd to a 73-win team - everyone knows thats the most bullshit overpowered team in the history of the league



just to stop lebron and kyrie :oldlol:




draymond literally told kd we didnt even need you - and then went ahead and proved it by winning another ring last year with a similar squad :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

The redeem team doc shed a lot of light on how Kobe and lebron are with teammates. Kobe was a social outcast and loner. Hard working mofo but very self oriented.

Lebron was the glue keeping everyone laughing but also stern enough in practice to get the most out of his teammates. He's the best of both worlds as a leader, Kobe was one-dimensional and thus alienated a ton of his teammates.

Bran was out there partying with the teammates while Kobe took it seriously and was at the gym. He led by example and it worked in the end.

KB, like Jordan, challenged his teammates all the time. It can alienate most people if they don't take their craft seriously, but it also weeds out the weak bitches like Smush Parker.

[ImKobe]

yeah jordan was a better shooter


I agree



your point? do you think jordan and pippen are stopping lebron and kyrie? :oldlol:

There's a better chance they stop the 2 than the other way around. MJ & Pip are both better defensively than Bran & Kyrie.

They let prime Bran have any wide open jump shot he wanted basically. I don't think you understand how much better MJ was as a jump shooter.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Bran was out there partying with the teammates while Kobe took it seriously and was at the gym. He led by example and it worked in the end.

KB, like Jordan, challenged his teammates all the time. It can alienate most people if they don't take their craft seriously, but it also weeds out the weak bitches like Smush Parker.

Waking up at 4am isn't the only way to take it seriously, and sleep deprivation is HORRIBLE for athletes. For everyone really, but atrocious for high level athletes.

But LeBron started training with Kobe early, and the rest of the guys followed LeBron because he had established relationships. Mind you, LeBron was only 23 in that doc. And came off as a natural leader and was the vocal leader all throughout that film.

[red1]

There's a better chance they stop the 2 than the other way around. MJ & Pip are both better defensively than Bran & Kyrie.

They let prime Bran have any wide open jump shot he wanted basically. I don't think you understand how much better MJ was as a jump shooter.

you're a dumbass



its obvious from all of your opinions




no one is stopping lebron and kyrie. the warriors with kd curry and klay just outscored them with all of the best shooters in the league on the same team. I think they were literally #1 2 and 3, PLUS they had great defenders in iggy and dray



lebron was the best player in the word both of those years (2017 and 2018) and kerr said it himself

[red1]

these dumbass kobe fans man



so sick of these retards

[red1]

kobe is the easiest player to roast in NBA history

[1987_Lakers]

Bran was out there partying with the teammates while Kobe took it seriously and was at the gym. He led by example and it worked in the end.

KB, like Jordan, challenged his teammates all the time. It can alienate most people if they don't take their craft seriously, but it also weeds out the weak bitches like Smush Parker.

Kobe was a narcissist. Dude got mad at his teammates for not standing up for him during his rape trial, another teammate had to slap some sense into him and tell him, "Why would we be by your side if you didn't even invite us to your wedding?". This is a true story.

Kobe just wasn't a natural leader like LeBron.

[red1]

Kobe was a narcissist. Dude got mad at his teammates for not standing up for him during his rape trial, another teammate had to slap some sense into him and tell him, "Why would we be by your side if you didn't even invite us to your wedding?". This is a true story.

Kobe just wasn't a natural leader like LeBron.

kobe is arguably the most overrated player in NBA history


the dude just wasnt as good as his fans think



he was a streaky shooter who got hot, VERY hot, giving the perception that he was unguardable



in reality he always relied on dominant big men because he always shot poorly when it counted

[iamgine]

Jordan was at the level of best player of all time playing with people so far inferior to him. Hard to be a good teammate in that situation.

[John8204]

Pippen isn't saying anything that's wrong. Most people who know basketball know Jordan was only able to succeed in that small window of 8 seasons. Wilt said it best...the Bulls were able to surround Jordan with role players he'd be an outside shooter in the 60's or out of the league because of his attitude. Doesn't mean he's not the GOAT but their is a difference between being the GOAT and being some messianic figure beyond criticism.

[90sgoat]

He(and many at the time) are obviously talking about being horrible as a teammate not literally bad but you can bet people are gonna pretend that’s what he meant. It’s probably like how when Bird had this 50 point game:



https://youtu.be/KwyozRBxSQE



Which the Celtics lost by 1. Walton told him in the locker room he was the worst player on the floor that night and Bird actually agreed. They started spreading the ball a bit more and won 14 straight and the title.

One of those things. Not literally bad. Just not letting others play.

Sounds bad though.

Who is going to be the Walton to tell Luka?

Probably no one.

[90sgoat]

the dude just wasnt as good as his fans think


Nah, Kobe was probably better technically than most people think. If you go back and watch him, there is not a player today with similar skill level.

His problem was horrendous shot selection. He'd have streches of games where he just didn't pass the ball. He didn't take a shot based on it being a good shot or not, just if he felt the team needed him to shoot.

That really was his main issue.

[Wardell Curry]

Nah, Kobe was probably better technically than most people think. If you go back and watch him, there is not a player today with similar skill level.

His problem was horrendous shot selection. He'd have streches of games where he just didn't pass the ball. He didn't take a shot based on it being a good shot or not, just if he felt the team needed him to shoot.

That really was his main issue.

That's very true. Something that he never completely got away from his entire time in the league, despite the rest of his brilliance, and minor improvements from time to time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew8kp9vpdrA

There's Jordan summing it up all the way back in 1998 at the 1 minute mark. Kobe was an incredibly selfish me first player with a putrid shot selection. And still became an all time great despite it.

https://blacksportsonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/What-Kobe-Sees.jpg


Just like LeBron has never gotten completely away from lacking confidence in the closing moments of games. Despite all of the shots he has hit in game winning situations, and there have been a lot more than people give him credit for, it's often times written all over his body language and play style. I am not talking about him passing to an open teammate instead of taking contested shots. It's difficult to articulate, but you know it when you see it. He is a bit scared. I've watched him for 20 years. You can't deny it. Kwame Brown was fairly accurate the other day in saying that LeBron's attempt at the end of the game 4 was bullshit and that someone like Jordan would have pulled up and got a cleaner look at the basket. This is why LeBron's percentages are higher. He takes higher percentage shots. And while that may sound smart and it may often times be, it often lacks full context.

[Wardell Curry]

It's funny in a way. Confidence was both Kobe's and is LeBron's weakness. Just opposites sides of the same coin.

[Wardell Curry]

I ignorantly forgot to mention perhaps LeBron's other big problem is his seeming inability to reliably create his own shot.

[90sgoat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew8kp9vpdrA


Great find.

Yes, it was a different time back then for sure. A different code.

I've talked about this before, but the NBA in the 90s was still based on working class culture. You see it in the raw crowds, not as wild as the 80s maybe, but still noticeably more similar to european soccer culture, at least in NY and Boston.

Working class culture frowns on trying to go it by yourself. You work with your crew and you follow the rules and work hard, work your way up.

Then with the end of the 90s, we had the first millennials, first generation, like Kobe, raised with a high standard of living, from the huge boomer middle class families.

Kobe is not a true millennial either, that would be someone like McGrady, but it's still a very noticeably shift, in these guys coming in, they're either from well off backgrounds, like Kobe, or they're from thug backgrounds like Iverson. There's not really anyone coming in with that working class background.

[HylianNightmare]

How's their relationship nowadays

[Phoenix]

Great find.



Kobe is not a true millennial either, that would be someone like McGrady, but it's still a very noticeably shift, in these guys coming in, they're either from well off backgrounds, like Kobe, or they're from thug backgrounds like Iverson. There's not really anyone coming in with that working class background.

What do you mean by this? Kobe was born in August 1978, Tmac May 1979. You're saying the millennial line occurred within the 9 month difference between the two of them? Technically neither one are millenials though, they're Xenials, the micro generation between Generation X and Millenial.

[ImKobe]

Kobe was a narcissist. Dude got mad at his teammates for not standing up for him during his rape trial, another teammate had to slap some sense into him and tell him, "Why would we be by your side if you didn't even invite us to your wedding?". This is a true story.

Kobe just wasn't a natural leader like LeBron.

such a great leader... definitely not a narcissist who constantly lies about the most trivial shit


https://youtu.be/QyS4Maf4FnI


Remember when he quit on the Laker team?

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/HvM9BTVOs3Q5XbIOPEgA9SCA6Ig=/1400x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/13741106/lebron.jpg

Everyone on ISH knows Bran is no leader bro

[90sgoat]

What do you mean by this? Kobe was born in August 1978, Tmac May 1979. You're saying the millennial line occurred within the 9 month difference between the two of them? Technically neither one are millenials though, they're Xenials, the micro generation between Generation X and Millenial.

You're right, Lebron is the millennial generation, Kobe/McGrady is technically Xennial generation.

[bdonovan]

I think he's telling the truth even if "horrible" is an exaggeration. A better way of saying it was Jordan was a selfish ISO player before Pippen.

I remember watching a documentary that said that Jordan did not share the ball on the Bulls in the early years because he felt he had no one to pass to.

Here's the 1984-5 Bulls Roster (Jordan's first year). See if there's anyone worth passing the ball to:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1985.html

Pippen by being an offensive force in his own right, Jordan realized he could pass to someone who could reliably score. They began to play off each other and became a fierce tandem. I get nightmares thinking of their chemistry because they used that prowess to trash my home team (Knicks).

Jordan began to trust his teammates more after Pippen, because of Pippen.

Some people may misremember Jordan or not have watched him and assume he was a selfish ISO player. He wasn't. Post Pippen's arrival, he was a skilled ball distributor. Often, he would spend the first quarter or two passing to teammates and then torch the opposing team in the 2nd half.

Credit to Pippen for getting headlines with the way he framed it, but he's sharing an essential truth about Jordan's transformation as a player.

[sdot_thadon]

I think he's telling the truth even if "horrible" is an exaggeration. A better way of saying it was Jordan was a selfish ISO player before Pippen.

I remember watching a documentary that said that Jordan did not share the ball on the Bulls in the early years because he felt he had no one to pass to.

Here's the 1984-5 Bulls Roster (Jordan's first year). See if there's anyone worth passing the ball to:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1985.html

Pippen by being an offensive force in his own right, Jordan realized he could pass to someone who could reliably score. They began to play off each other and become a fierce tandem. It get nightmares thinking of their chemistry because they used that prowess to trash my home team (Knicks).

Jordan began to trust his teammates more after Pippen, because of Pippen.

Some people may misremember Jordan or not have watched him and assume he was a selfish ISO player. He wasn't. He was a skilled ball distributor. Often, he would spend the first quarter or two passing to teammates and then torch the opposing team in the 2nd half.

Credit to Pippen for getting headlines with the way he framed it, but he's sharing an essential truth about Jordan's transformation as a player.

Pretty much this. He's not lying but his presentation is just as terrible as he's saying Mj was for what it's worth. Mj was widely known as a hotdog and a ballhog by old heads when I was a kid. I could care less, I was entertained lol.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NodZ0hIGzg4

Treats teammates like trash, doesn't speak to them for 4 months if they stand up for themselves. :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

Jordan was considered a hot dog solo act in the 80's, that was the narrative at the time that a scoring champion would never win a chip. That sentiment probably held doubly true for scoring champ guards because it was still a big mans league at that point. Only Falks, Mikan, Alcindor, Jordan and Shaq have been scoring champ/won title in the same year.

[Phoenix]

You're right, Lebron is the millennial generation, Kobe/McGrady is technically Xennial generation.

Yes, alot of people still use the term 'millenial' to mean 'younger people' but a significant number are north of 40.

[Jasper]

Pippen is an extremely spiteful and delusional individual.

really sad IMO

Where was Pippen .. he was nothing until he was molded.
MJ tried to carry the Bulls , by scoring 30+ a game. Even with a losing record, he put it on his shoulders.

[ImKobe]

That's very true. Something that he never completely got away from his entire time in the league, despite the rest of his brilliance, and minor improvements from time to time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew8kp9vpdrA

There's Jordan summing it up all the way back in 1998 at the 1 minute mark. Kobe was an incredibly selfish me first player with a putrid shot selection. And still became an all time great despite it.


Just to be clear here, Kobe had a higher or similar assist ratio in crunch time in most scenarios than Lebron and a better AST/TO ratio, and was more efficient in crunch time than he ever got credit for. ESPN cherry-picked the one situation where he shot poorly and ran with the narrative (just pure FG% too, no context on 3PA and FTAs), and y'all fell for it because you guys don't fact-check anything.

And it's the same with Jordan. A lot of the historic shots by his teammates were a direct result of him passing the ball & trusting them in the biggest moment. Paxson ('91 vs Lakers) & Kerr ('97 vs Jazz) both hit series-clinching shots off MJ's assists in the Finals. Derek Fisher hit the game-winner in Game 4 of the '09 Finals off a Kobe pass. Artest hit the big Game 7 shot off a pass from Kobe. Shaq's most iconic play (alley-oop dunk to clinch the WCF against Portland in 2000) is a pass from Kobe.

And people here try to tell us how great of a leader & how unselfish Pip was, but he literally quit on his team and refused to finish the game because Phil drew up the game-winning shot for Kukoc in '94 in the ECSF against the Knicks.

[90sgoat]

Yes, alot of people still use the term 'millenial' to mean 'younger people' but a significant number are north of 40.

Well, young people now are Zoomers and people in their late 20s to late 30s are millennials, it's just that some people in the late 30s to early 40s are a group that are not X'ers and not Millennials either, like you say, their own group, one foot in the digital millennials and one foot in the analog X'ers.

[Phoenix]

Well, young people now are Zoomers and people in their late 20s to late 30s are millennials, it's just that some people in the late 30s to early 40s are a group that are not X'ers and not Millennials either, like you say, their own group, one foot in the digital millennials and one foot in the analog X'ers.

Yeah, if you grew up in a world of 8-track, records, BETA/VHS and then CD/DVD/internet went mainstream just as you were approaching young adulthood, you're basically a xennial( where I fall).

[hateraid]

lol@the MJ stans who rushed in to slander Pippen about his ex and completely avoided Pippen's account of what Mikey was like as a teammate back in the day.

:facepalm

Exactly. Which seems to be the norm for Jordaneers

[hateraid]

Pippen isn't saying anything that's wrong. Most people who know basketball know Jordan was only able to succeed in that small window of 8 seasons. Wilt said it best...the Bulls were able to surround Jordan with role players he'd be an outside shooter in the 60's or out of the league because of his attitude. Doesn't mean he's not the GOAT but their is a difference between being the GOAT and being some messianic figure beyond criticism.

It's like you have independent thinking. Great post

[sdot_thadon]

Just to be clear here, Kobe had a higher or similar assist ratio in crunch time in most scenarios than Lebron and a better AST/TO ratio, and was more efficient in crunch time than he ever got credit for. ESPN cherry-picked the one situation where he shot poorly and ran with the narrative (just pure FG% too, no context on 3PA and FTAs), and y'all fell for it because you guys don't fact-check anything.

And it's the same with Jordan. A lot of the historic shots by his teammates were a direct result of him passing the ball & trusting them in the biggest moment. Paxson ('91 vs Lakers) & Kerr ('97 vs Jazz) both hit series-clinching shots off MJ's assists in the Finals. Derek Fisher hit the game-winner in Game 4 of the '09 Finals off a Kobe pass. Artest hit the big Game 7 shot off a pass from Kobe. Shaq's most iconic play (alley-oop dunk to clinch the WCF against Portland in 2000) is a pass from Kobe.

And people here try to tell us how great of a leader & how unselfish Pip was, but he literally quit on his team and refused to finish the game because Phil drew up the game-winning shot for Kukoc in '94 in the ECSF against the Knicks.

Man I hate to derail the conversation but hold on.

How in THE entire hell are people still giving Mj credit for Paxsons shot. He literally did not make the pass to paxson, nor the hockey assist either. It's 2023 and the footage has been viewed millions of times I'd guess, are we just purposely giving a false account?

[Manny98]

He really said no pip no chip :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

confusing quote.

"ive seen michael play before I was on the bulls. hes a horrible player"


what?

[ArbitraryWater]

Everyone knows Jordan's son is f**king Scottie's ex-wife and there's a giant agenda in him now all of the sudden saying tons of crap about Jordan, Phil Jackson, etc. etc. etc.

https://www.narcity.com/media-library/larsa-pippen-and-marcus-jordan.jpg?id=32931260&width=1245&height=700&coordinates=6%2C0%2C0%2C0

The funny thing is Jordan has never said a bad thing about Pippen ever, always gone out of his way to compliment him, always is clear in giving him his props, but Pippen is a spiteful dude.


MJ should have never allowed this relationship.

Its mad weird.

[Micku]

MJ should have never allowed this relationship.

Its mad weird.

Man, his son is a grown man. His son could date or marry whoever he wants.

It is weird tho, but whatever.

[lxlHoTsAuSelxl]

MJ should have never allowed this relationship.

Its mad weird.

People should already know she's in it for the 'Jordan' brand, fame. On the other end, he's in it just for the smash, of course it not going to last. Wasnt she messing around with the rapper Future while still married to Pippen? After that she moved on to Malik Beasley who is currently playing for the Lakers alongside Pippen's son, rookie Scotty Pippen Jr.........worst then a Jerry Springer episode.

[Micku]

I just watch more of the Pippen interview.

He was calling Phil Jackson selfish. Called MJ selfish. And blame them for the break up of the team. He also said MJ character and him being critical or being rough on his teammates didn't drive them to win. And no free agent or whatever wanted to play with MJ. And no one likes being belittled.

[ArbitraryWater]

Man, his son is a grown man. His son could date or marry whoever he wants.

It is weird tho, but whatever.

I dont care.

If thats my son, I tell him not to do that shit.

It should be weird for MJ also.

[Micku]

I dont care.

If thats my son, I tell him not to do that shit.

It should be weird for MJ also.

I feel like you could tell him, but he won't have to listen to you. He is his own person.

But I do agree, it's weird. And as other ppl said, she could be after the big Jordan brand money. Who knows, and we don't know the ppl. This definitely seems like a soap opera tv show.

[90sgoat]

Yeah, if you grew up in a world of 8-track, records, BETA/VHS and then CD/DVD/internet went mainstream just as you were approaching young adulthood, you're basically a xennial( where I fall).

Same bro.

If you remember arcades, but it was Nintendo 8-bit that got you into gaming, then you're a xennial.

If your defining moment in basketball was the '92 Olympics.

...

go on..

[90sgoat]

And no one likes being belittled.

I wouldn't call what MJ did belittling, I would call it psychopathic sadistic bullying, but just kept just within acceptable range.

MJ of course having more than normal levels of anti-social personality traits.

[Micku]

I wouldn't call what MJ did belittling, I would call it psychopathic sadistic bullying, but just kept just within acceptable range.

MJ of course having more than normal levels of anti-social personality traits.


They did win 6 championships like that. But I would think there are other ways to make it work for sure.

Pippen argument is that they won despite all of that.
But I think it just depends on the ppl that you surround yourself with. Jimmy Butler is similar. T-Wolves and Philly passed up on that, but with the Heat they are cool.
Kobe was similar and it worked out for him. He made one dude cry.
Shaq was similar too, but he had more of a fun side to him and didn't reach that same lvl of intensity in his self care.

Like Barkley said, there are some dudes that you could push and go really hard on them, and others you can't. I remember in an interview, Jimmy Butler said that's what he liked about in Miami. They get on you. They yell at you. They expect you to work. With the T-Wolves and with philly, they didn't like it when Butler does that. They consider him a potential team cancer. But with Miami, they embrace it.

With that said, I think there are some lvls of truth in Pippen statements. At the same time, I think he is still reaching and just hurting with his others. He is attacking Phil Jackson and MJ. I think he even attacked LeBron's play this postseason I think? Or at least how the Lakers played.

[hateraid]

They did win 6 championships like that. But I would think there are other ways to make it work for sure.

Pippen argument is that they won despite all of that.
But I think it just depends on the ppl that you surround yourself with. Jimmy Butler is similar. T-Wolves and Philly passed up on that, but with the Heat they are cool.
Kobe was similar and it worked out for him. He made one dude cry.
Shaq was similar too, but he had more of a fun side to him and didn't reach that same lvl of intensity in his self care.

Like Barkley said, there are some dudes that you could push and go really hard on them, and others you can't. I remember in an interview, Jimmy Butler said that's what he liked about in Miami. They get on you. They yell at you. They expect you to work. With the T-Wolves and with philly, they didn't like it when Butler does that. They consider him a potential team cancer. But with Miami, they embrace it.

With that said, I think there are some lvls of truth in Pippen statements. At the same time, I think he is still reaching and just hurting with his others. He is attacking Phil Jackson and MJ. I think he even attacked LeBron's play this postseason I think? Or at least how the Lakers played.

Philly did not pass up on Butler. It was Butler or Tobias and Butler did not want to play behind Embiid and Simmons

[Full Court]

Bronie fluffers are just as bitter about MJ as Pippen is. :lol

Jordan was such a terrible person to play with, that Pippen played with him for 10 years all the way up until Jordan retired. I guess Pippen must have liked being carried to titles.

And everyone knows playing with Jordan was rough. Winning ain't easy.

:lebroncry:

[Micku]

Philly did not pass up on Butler. It was Butler or Tobias and Butler did not want to play behind Embiid and Simmons

Apparently, someone said they would keep him if someone can control him. If they could, they would think about having him back. Added that with Tobias and Simmons. Jimmy said it here unless there are other sources that he said about it was either him or Tobias.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciKdF97JWpU#t=08m20s

[1987_Lakers]

And everyone knows playing with Jordan was rough. Winning ain't easy.

:lebroncry:

Russell won 11 times and we never heard stories of him being an asshole towards teammates.

Brady has 7 and loved by teammates.

[bdonovan]

I just watch more of the Pippen interview.

He was calling Phil Jackson selfish. Called MJ selfish. And blame them for the break up of the team. He also said MJ character and him being critical or being rough on his teammates didn't drive them to win. And no free agent or whatever wanted to play with MJ. And no one likes being belittled.

This was because Jordan in the documentary implied Pippen was selfish and got surgery he didn't need to.

[Phoenix]

Same bro.

If you remember arcades, but it was Nintendo 8-bit that got you into gaming, then you're a xennial.

If your defining moment in basketball was the '92 Olympics.

...

go on..

If Star Wars to you is...
https://ychef.files.bbci.co.uk/976x549/p01y6s01.jpg

and
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/GVeWd7qhnPoam0LAaaRGTDhpbQ4=/0x2:803x537/1200x800/filters:focal(0x2:803x537)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/47807099/12189961_1033808203349553_1017265756971102909_n.0. 0.jpg

and not this bullshit
https://media.tenor.com/UcgjPabc3iYAAAAd/boss-nass-shaking-head.gif

[999Guy]

Never horrible. Definitely had natural sloppy habits.

I actually give Phil Jackson the credit.

He cleaned Shaq's game up when he went to LA as well. Immediately won the title when he got there. Jordan the Bulls were a hair from being in the Finals his first year.


I think Shaq and Jordan have Wilt Chamberlain careers without Phil. Uber talented controversial underachievers to the onlookers of their eras.

Giannis is another naturally sloppy guy whose prime immediately started when Budenholzer got ahold of him and gave him a structured offense and defense. What a disastrous firing.

[GimmeThat]

the same people that thinks Michael Jackson having a bleached white face is odd, are the same ones that begged him to do it.

because when his face turns black, everyone expected their reaction would be "great, things are back to normal", instead of the reality in which "what the hell were you doing back then."

again, everyone hates Trump

[Bacchus]

Pippen went from winning a 3peat with Jordan, to losing in the first round the following season playing with Hakeem and Barkley

[SaltyMeatballs]

Without MJ, Pippen wouldn't have a single ring, so he shouldn't be such a bitter crybaby.

You can reverse that statement and it would still be accurate

[TheMan]

His dick is twice the size of Jordan's conformed by Madonna

Everything he says stems from a place of superiority and confidence. He is laughing because jordans son inherited his small dick and isn't pleasing her, despite being 30 years younger

Now we talking about dick sizes? Lol

Anyways, Pip keeps this up, he gonna be declared persona non grata in Chicago :lol

[hateraid]

Apparently, someone said they would keep him if someone can control him. If they could, they would think about having him back. Added that with Tobias and Simmons. Jimmy said it here unless there are other sources that he said about it was either him or Tobias.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciKdF97JWpU#t=08m20s

Tobi and Butler had contract extensions at the exact same time. We couldn't keep both AND rework Embiid's too. One had to be signed and it was Tobias being cheaper and wanted to be here

I would 10 out of 10 signed Butler and released Tobi. But unfortunately Butler didn't like the culture and the back seat

[hateraid]

You can reverse that statement and it would still be accurate

Reverse logic does not compute with Jordaneers.

[97 bulls]

Reverse logic does not compute with Jordaneers.

You Jordanites are missing the context of what Pippen stated. He was referring to the Bulls success. Jordan tried winning games on his own. And he flopped miserably. And it wasn't that he had a bad team. He had George Gervin who was an Allstar the previous year and Charles Oakley. Gervin hardly played in that series vs the Celtics in 86 because he and Jordan couldn't play together.

[Micku]

You Jordanites are missing the context of what Pippen stated. He was referring to the Bulls success. Jordan tried winning games on his own. And he flopped miserably. And it wasn't that he had a bad team. He had George Gervin who was an Allstar the previous year and Charles Oakley. Gervin hardly played in that series vs the Celtics in 86 because he and Jordan couldn't play together.

It was a bad team. But there is merit to what Pipen is saying for sure. MJ didn't like Gervin being on the team. Thought he was old. And he was on the bench the whole team during the Celts series. But that team had no shot of beating the Celts. MJ did single handily kept them in the game.

They were in danger of missing the playoffs until MJ got back and made a push for it. And they restricted him to 15 mins and they were losing bad until he got fed up and told Krause he wanted to play longer. Krause was trying to play it cautious, saying he is looking out for the future. They were 9-9 overall when MJ played. And he was on a min restriction when he came back. And a few of those games they probably could've won if MJ played. They were one game maybe two games of missing the playoffs entirely. Resulting in 29 or 28 wins overall for the season. When MJ came back, and played longer than 15 mins, they would sometimes beat teams by a couple of points. By the last 7 games of the season, dude was averaging about 29 ppg on 48%.

So, it's obvious he was positive for his team. But MJ didn't trust his teammates for sure. But it wasn't like Kobe at his worst in taking bad shots.

[Full Court]

Russell won 11 times and we never heard stories of him being an asshole towards teammates.

Brady has 7 and loved by teammates.

Nobody's claiming MJ wasn't an a-hole. So who are you Bronie fluffers even arguing with?


:biggums:

[97 bulls]

It was a bad team. But there is merit to what Pipen is saying for sure. MJ didn't like Gervin being on the team. Thought he was old. And he was on the bench the whole team during the Celts series. But that team had no shot of beating the Celts. MJ did single handily kept them in the game.

They were in danger of missing the playoffs until MJ got back and made a push for it. And they restricted him to 15 mins and they were losing bad until he got fed up and told Krause he wanted to play longer. Krause was trying to play it cautious, saying he is looking out for the future. They were 9-9 overall when MJ played. And he was on a min restriction when he came back. And a few of those games they probably could've won if MJ played. They were one game maybe two games of missing the playoffs entirely. Resulting in 29 or 28 wins overall for the season. When MJ came back, and played longer than 15 mins, they would sometimes beat teams by a couple of points. By the last 7 games of the season, dude was averaging about 29 ppg on 48%.

So, it's obvious he was positive for his team. But MJ didn't trust his teammates for sure. But it wasn't like Kobe at his worst in taking bad shots.

Think about what you said. They were 9-9 with him. That's not a bad team. And that's just on talent seeing as how they didn't really have much time to gel. Now what if Jordan was willing to share the ball more? Gervin basically insinuated that he didn't play in that Celtics series because Jordan didn't want him to. I think that's what Pippen meant when he called Jordan a bad player. He was a selfish ballhog.

[Micku]

Think about what you said. They were 9-9 with him. That's not a bad team. And that's just on talent seeing as how they didn't really have much time to gel. Now what if Jordan was willing to share the ball more? Gervin basically insinuated that he didn't play in that Celtics series because Jordan didn't want him to. I think that's what Pippen meant when he called Jordan a bad player. He was a selfish ballhog.

On talent without MJ, they are missing the playoffs.

9 of those games they won. And a lot of them barely won, and that's with MJ scoring a lot. You could argue that they would've had 21 wins without MJ. And as I said before, it's pretty safe bet they would've missed the playoffs without them. This showed how MJ was valuable to the team. You could argue that the team could've done something with MJ healthy, get higher in the standings and have a favorable matchup, but we won't ever know.

But MJ being selfish ballhog during that era was overstated. Like he wasn't Adrian Dantley or anything. Nowadays, if ppl looked back, they would be like "Really? They consider this to be ballhog?" We have seen worse. We saw worse back then and we see worse now. He didn't trust his teammates for sure tho. You could argue he didn't make his teammates better or give his teammates the best shots. But eeeh...like they were open. They had good shots. They double-team and triple-team MJ, even with the Celts series. MJ passed. The teammates didn't make it. You can argue they didn't have a rhythm or that MJ constantly attacking would take his teammates out of the game. And that is a fair criticism. Especially at the time when we saw how Bird and Magic play. However, he still attracted a bunch of gravity from the defense even when they started winning championships. He wasn't a willing passer, but he did pass.

The criticism of him not taking good shots, idk about that. He did take some bad shots, but it wasn't often. I do feel like MJ did get better at balancing getting his teammates involved and attacking later on his career for sure. At the same time, you can argue he had better teammates and coaching too.

And the Bulls were going to get swept either way by the Celts. Close game 2. And this was MJ second year lol.

I think we get things twisted that when MJ started to pass is when they started winning. Naw, it wasn't just that. It was a collective things. The coaching along with the system, the players improving (hitting open shots), MJ buying in.

[ImKobe]

Man I hate to derail the conversation but hold on.

How in THE entire hell are people still giving Mj credit for Paxsons shot. He literally did not make the pass to paxson, nor the hockey assist either. It's 2023 and the footage has been viewed millions of times I'd guess, are we just purposely giving a false account?


https://youtu.be/7nLzQN25bSE

First shot of that sequence is what I'm referring to

MJ trusted his teammates in big moments.

[Axe]

Russell won 11 times and we never heard stories of him being an asshole towards teammates.

Brady has 7 and loved by teammates.
:applause:

[HighFlyer23]

:applause:

You can win without being an asshole

[GimmeThat]

You can win without being an asshole

word of the wise to the kids without a father figure

[Axe]

You can win without being an asshole
Yes. I can recall mj punching steve kerr in 1995 if i remember correctly.

[HighFlyer23]

Yes. I can recall mj punching steve kerr in 1995 if i remember correctly.

But ran away when the heavyweight champion of the world iron Mike Tyson stepped up to him

I know that nearly every human on the planet would back off from Tyson but reports were that Jordan literally ran away

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Mike was a terrible player...a horrible teammate...but miraculously became the highest order...when Scottie Pippen arrived. Right. :oldlol: Everyone does him wrong including the "racist" coach. Yeah, I know...

Pip just chatting lol

[HighFlyer23]

Mike was a terrible player...a horrible teammate...but miraculously became the highest order...when Scottie Pippen arrived. Right. :oldlol: Everyone does him wrong including the "racist" coach. Yeah, I know...

Pip just chatting lol

Pip will forever be a sidekick number #2 robin

[97 bulls]

On talent without MJ, they are missing the playoffs.

9 of those games they won. And a lot of them barely won, and that's with MJ scoring a lot. You could argue that they would've had 21 wins without MJ. And as I said before, it's pretty safe bet they would've missed the playoffs without them. This showed how MJ was valuable to the team. You could argue that the team could've done something with MJ healthy, get higher in the standings and have a favorable matchup, but we won't ever know.

But MJ being selfish ballhog during that era was overstated. Like he wasn't Adrian Dantley or anything. Nowadays, if ppl looked back, they would be like "Really? They consider this to be ballhog?" We have seen worse. We saw worse back then and we see worse now. He didn't trust his teammates for sure tho. You could argue he didn't make his teammates better or give his teammates the best shots. But eeeh...like they were open. They had good shots. They double-team and triple-team MJ, even with the Celts series. MJ passed. The teammates didn't make it. You can argue they didn't have a rhythm or that MJ constantly attacking would take his teammates out of the game. And that is a fair criticism. Especially at the time when we saw how Bird and Magic play. However, he still attracted a bunch of gravity from the defense even when they started winning championships. He wasn't a willing passer, but he did pass.

The criticism of him not taking good shots, idk about that. He did take some bad shots, but it wasn't often. I do feel like MJ did get better at balancing getting his teammates involved and attacking later on his career for sure. At the same time, you can argue he had better teammates and coaching too.

And the Bulls were going to get swept either way by the Celts. Close game 2. And this was MJ second year lol.

I think we get things twisted that when MJ started to pass is when they started winning. Naw, it wasn't just that. It was a collective things. The coaching along with the system, the players improving (hitting open shots), MJ buying in.

I'm not talking about the Bulls without MJ. Neither was Pippen. Why hold Jordan accountable for games he (Jordan) didn't play in? He's talking about the games Jordan did play in. Again, go back to what you said. The Bulls were 9-9 with Jordan. Jordan didn't trust his teammates. Now something has to give here. The biggest knock on Pippen is that he wasn't great scorer. Some would say he was even a bad scorer (smdh). Just to give my argument some scale, players like Tim Duncan and Grant Hill had only 1 or 2 seasons of over 10 years of play in which they scored more than the 22ppg that Pippen did in 94. Without having a player as ball dominant as Jordan to have to play with. But because they were able to accomplish more than 22ppg once or twice, theyre deemed to be the far superior offensive player to Pippen. Well, Orlando Woolridge hit 26ppg one time in his career. Gervin was coming off an allstar season and is considered one of the greatest scorers the league has ever had. And his age shouldn't be considered because Pippen gets cut no slack for not being able to win at damn near 35 years old and much more milage than Gervin had at 33. Gervin said he didn't play much in that series vs the Celtics because Jordan didn't want him to. And I believe that because like Jordan at the time, Gervin was more of a 1 man show offensively. Jordan was able to coexist so well with Pippen because Pippen wasn't a selfish player, and more importantly, he could impact a game without having to score a bunch of points.

Now, I beleieve Jordan needed more help. But when trolls try to relegate success in basketball to just scoring, then theyre gonna have to answer why Jordan couldnt even get a win when he had 2 players that could get you more than 20ppg on that team in 86. The argument that Jordan would've won earlier if he had more offensive help is a bold faced lie because he had plenty of guys that could score.

[ImKobe]

Russell won 11 times and we never heard stories of him being an asshole towards teammates.

Brady has 7 and loved by teammates.

Brady constantly chewed out his teammates on the sideline on TV man.. just last season he cussed the shit out of his O-line during the game for everyone to see lol. He's known for that shit.

[3ba11]

Russell won 11 times and we never heard stories of him being an asshole towards teammates.

Brady has 7 and loved by teammates.


There was no need for Russell to yell at HOF'ers (8 HOF teammates) and Brady was carried as well, while Jordan had a 7 ppg rookie and a bunch of bums to make into champions - the ONLY way to get bums to elevate into champions is the hardline approach.. There's no room to let crappy players think they can slack off.

MJ had to build a champion from scratch and he eventually won with the least help anyone ever had that won multiple chips (1 all-star teammate and zero go-to or dominant teammates)

[Micku]

I'm not talking about the Bulls without MJ. Neither was Pippen. Why hold Jordan accountable for games he (Jordan) didn't play in? He's talking about the games Jordan did play in. Again, go back to what you said. The Bulls were 9-9 with Jordan. Jordan didn't trust his teammates. Now something has to give here. The biggest knock on Pippen is that he wasn't great scorer. Some would say he was even a bad scorer (smdh). Just to give my argument some scale, players like Tim Duncan and Grant Hill had only 1 or 2 seasons of over 10 years of play in which they scored more than the 22ppg that Pippen did in 94. Without having a player as ball dominant as Jordan to have to play with. But because they were able to accomplish more than 22ppg once or twice, theyre deemed to be the far superior offensive player to Pippen. Well, Orlando Woolridge hit 26ppg one time in his career. Gervin was coming off an allstar season and is considered one of the greatest scorers the league has ever had. And his age shouldn't be considered because Pippen gets cut no slack for not being able to win at damn near 35 years old and much more milage than Gervin had at 33. Gervin said he didn't play much in that series vs the Celtics because Jordan didn't want him to. And I believe that because like Jordan at the time, Gervin was more of a 1 man show offensively. Jordan was able to coexist so well with Pippen because Pippen wasn't a selfish player, and more importantly, he could impact a game without having to score a bunch of points.

Now, I beleieve Jordan needed more help. But when trolls try to relegate success in basketball to just scoring, then theyre gonna have to answer why Jordan couldnt even get a win when he had 2 players that could get you more than 20ppg on that team in 86. The argument that Jordan would've won earlier if he had more offensive help is a bold faced lie because he had plenty of guys that could score.

The reason why I talk about the Bulls without MJ is to emphasize how bad the team was. It was bad. You talk about talent with the team, yet how good is that talent if it can't win anything without their best player? I know sometimes you can have talent and be a bad team because it's a bad fit. We have seen this countless of times. MJ was the engine of that team and was extremely valuable. And MJ was the reason why they made the POs in the first place and was the reason why they came close to taking a game from the Celts. But I do think they had the potential to be better if they played for longer or had a better coach.

And like I said before, MJ being selfish and a ballhog is overstated in terms of the reason why they didn't win. They weren't going to win that Celtics series. And we saw better teams than the Bulls get swept. The Bucks that same year in 86 got swept by the Celtics. It's less that MJ was selfish, and more that the team wasn't good enough. And that's something every nba fan struggles to get sometimes. Like is it that specific player or the team? Like the Lakers core with LeBron and AD. They weren't good with Westbrook because it was a bad fit. They traded their pieces to get players who fit around their core and watch them flourish. Westbrook started to play better with the Clips than the Lakers. And the Lakers started playing better without him. Thus the core itself wasn't the problem.

Now going back to MJ. Was MJ the problem or was the construction of the team around him? With that asked, he still had to trust in his teammates more.

And in terms of MJ fitting well with Pippen cuz he is an unselfish player? That's true. But to an extent. We really don't know how MJ will fit with Ewing, Hakeem, Bird, Cylde, or with IT.

And the age thing is true to a point. Why are you talking about Pippen at 34 in comparison to Gervin at 33 and how Pippen gets no slack? The 2000 Portland?

It is true that some ppl pull up the age thing but are hypocrites when they say it. I remember when they said Pistons were old, when they were 29-31 with IT, Joe Dumars and Rodman. The bulls in 96 were older.

[97 bulls]

The reason why I talk about the Bulls without MJ is to emphasize how bad the team was. It was bad. You talk about talent with the team, yet how good is that talent if it can't win anything without their best player? I know sometimes you can have talent and be a bad team because it's a bad fit. We have seen this countless of times. MJ was the engine of that team and was extremely valuable. And MJ was the reason why they made the POs in the first place and was the reason why they came close to taking a game from the Celts. But I do think they had the potential to be better if they played for longer or had a better coach.

And like I said before, MJ being selfish and a ballhog is overstated in terms of the reason why they didn't win. They weren't going to win that Celtics series. And we saw better teams than the Bulls get swept. The Bucks that same year in 86 got swept by the Celtics. It's less that MJ was selfish, and more that the team wasn't good enough. And that's something every nba fan struggles to get sometimes. Like is it that specific player or the team? Like the Lakers core with LeBron and AD. They weren't good with Westbrook because it was a bad fit. They traded their pieces to get players who fit around their core and watch them flourish. Westbrook started to play better with the Clips than the Lakers. And the Lakers started playing better without him. Thus the core itself wasn't the problem.

Now going back to MJ. Was MJ the problem or was the construction of the team around him?

And in terms of MJ fitting well with Pippen cuz he is an unselfish player? That's true. But to an extent. We really don't know how MJ will fit with Ewing, Hakeem, Bird, Cylde, or with IT.

And the age thing is true to a point. Why are you talking about Pippen at 34 in comparison to Gervin at 33 and how Pippen gets no slack? The 2000 Portland?

It is true that some ppl pull up the age thing but are hypocrites when they say it. I remember when they said Pistons were old, when they were 29-31 with IT, Joe Dumars and Rodman. The bulls in 96 were older.

I agree with everything you stated. I'm pointing out the inconsistencies. Jordan didn't have help in his first few years. But it wasn't so much that he didn't have offensive help. The Bulls had guys that could score. They didn't mesh well. They were bad on defense. But conversations on this forum always center around scoring the ball and not much else.

As far as Pippen, I agree that Jordan wasn't much of a team player in the beginning of his career. It wasn't overblown. Everyone said it. He was a one man show.

[Micku]

I agree with everything you stated. I'm pointing out the inconsistencies. Jordan didn't have help in his first few years. But it wasn't so much that he didn't have offensive help. The Bulls had guys that could score. They didn't mesh well. They were bad on defense. But conversations on this forum always center around scoring the ball and not much else.

As far as Pippen, I agree that Jordan wasn't much of a team player in the beginning of his career. It wasn't overblown. Everyone said it. He was a one man show.

That's what I disagree about.

Like...I'm not disagreeing that MJ became a better team player over time. He did for sure. No question. And I'm not disagreeing he was selfish.

But I do think it's overblown in terms of how bad it was in terms of the reason why they were losing. When it comes down to it, did he have the talent built around him to win it all? Or to win period? What was the best course of action to win? To pass? To score? etc. And when you look at the games in which they played, it wasn't like Kobe shooting the ball over two ppl falling out of bounds. It wasn't like AI. It wasn't like James Harden in the Rocket days. But you could say the style of MJ wasn't a great fit to maximize the 86 and 87 team potential. I could see that.

There was a video on thinking basketball who watched the games and track the stats. Even he noted it wasn't necessarily MJ played differently in 88-90 compared to 91. It was more the other teammates got better. They were a - 20 pts when MJ was on the bench in 89 and +24 with MJ on the court. That's insane. A good team shouldn't be outscored by that many pts imo, but it happens. While it showed the value of MJ in the 80s, it also showed how the team couldn't play well without him. Which caused them to lose games. And even when you look at the game when MJ got them open shots, they just couldn't knock it down. However, this was with Pippen on the team.

84-87 was similar, but you can say MJ passed less. And that's true lol. While ppl did call MJ a ballhog and not a team player. They also said you couldn't win a chip and be winning a scoring title. He did. Kareem did. Shaq did. But it is true, sometimes doing less is better for the team. And part of the reason why they said this was because of Magic and Bird. Anyway, it did take him a while to find that balance of attacking and getting his teammates involved. I would argue he did it earlier than 91, but he had to be constantly reminded by the coaching staff.

Same as KD. I remember in 2018, Kerr had to remind KD to pass. And that MJ story where Phil Jackson was like, Paxson is open. KD passed it before to open ppl. But sometimes in those moments in the game, star players with a scorer mentality have to be reminded.

[97 bulls]

That's what I disagree about.

Like...I'm not disagreeing that MJ became a better team player over time. He did for sure. No question. And I'm not disagreeing he was selfish.

But I do think it's overblown in terms of how bad it was in terms of the reason why they were losing. When it comes down to it, did he have the talent built around him to win it all? Or to win period? What was the best course of action to win? To pass? To score? etc. And when you look at the games in which they played, it wasn't like Kobe shooting the ball over two ppl falling out of bounds. It wasn't like AI. It wasn't like James Harden in the Rocket days.

There was a video on thinking basketball who watched the games and track the stats. Even he noted it wasn't necessarily MJ played differently in 88-90 compared to 91. It was more the other teammates got better. They were a - 20 pts when MJ was on the bench in 89 and +24 with MJ on the court. That's insane. A good team shouldn't be outscored by that many pts imo, but it happens. While it showed the value of MJ in the 80s, it also showed how the team couldn't play well without him. Which caused them to lose games. And even when you look at the game when MJ got them open shots, they just couldn't knock it down. However, this was with Pippen on the team.

84-87 was similar, but you can say MJ passed less. And that's true lol. While ppl did call MJ a ballhog and not a team player. They also said you couldn't win a chip and be winning a scoring title. He did. Kareem did. Shaq did. But it is true, sometimes doing less is better for the team. And part of the reason why they said this was because of Magic and Bird. Anyway, it did take him a while to find that balance of attacking and getting his teammates involved. I would argue he did it earlier than 91, but he had to be constantly reminded by the coaching staff.

Same as KD. I remember in 2018, Kerr had to remind KD to pass. And that MJ story where Phil Jackson was like, Paxson is open. KD passed it before to open ppl. But sometimes in those moments in the game, star players with a scorer mentality have to be reminded.

Bro. Not only did Pippen say this, but Phil Jackson, Larry Bird, Tex Winter, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, to name a few all said Jordan was a ballhog. Their +/- was that bad because they didn't really have an offense outside of Jordan. Remember during the last dance, when Tex Winter said he told Doug Collins that he needed to do a better job of getting other players involved and he got exiled to basically sitting with the fans. Even after the Bulls dynasty when Jordan joined the Wizards Stackhouse said Jordan hired Doug Collins because he'd run the offense through Jordan.

[Taurus]

Side note, but does anyone else find Jordan's son dating Pippen's ex to be pretty disturbing?

Marcus was born in 1990 and Larsa and Scottie got married in 1997. There's a very high chance that she met him while he was still a kid and she was in her 20s.

[GimmeThat]

Side note, but does anyone else find Jordan's son dating Pippen's ex to be pretty disturbing?

Marcus was born in 1990 and Larsa and Scottie got married in 1997. There's a very high chance that she met him while he was still a kid and she was in her 20s.

they currently both work in home security

[Micku]

Bro. Not only did Pippen say this, but Phil Jackson, Larry Bird, Tex Winter, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, to name a few all said Jordan was a ballhog. Their +/- was that bad because they didn't really have an offense outside of Jordan. Remember during the last dance, when Tex Winter said he told Doug Collins that he needed to do a better job of getting other players involved and he got exiled to basically sitting with the fans. Even after the Bulls dynasty when Jordan joined the Wizards Stackhouse said Jordan hired Doug Collins because he'd run the offense through Jordan.

I know Larry Bird also defended MJ of the notion that he was a ballhog or he didn't make his teammates better? I don't remember if it was after the 86 series or the 87 series. But he basically said that he just has no help. He went on to credit Mchale, Parish and DJ. Michael Cooper and IT wanted MJ to pass the ball. Cooper said you were always okay with MJ passing the ball. IT mentioned they wanted the other team to beat them besides MJ because they didn't respect the other guys. I do remember IT saying that MJ didn't make his teammates better, at the same time, he wasn't scared of any of his team taking the shot.

MJ did play off the ball and MJ did pass. Unwilling, but pass. He got better at that over time. I think all of them stated that he trusted his teammates more overtime.

And I remember that Tex and Phil wanted other players to get involved more. Going off a little bit to connect a point, but I remember Doc Rivers was asked why you give the ball to Perkins at the top of the key to give the ball to someone else? It seemed like a waste. And Doc responded by saying it's better to share the ball with everyone to get them more engage in the game. They play better defense that way. And even hustle more on offense and defense.

This is something MJ didn't get at first, but Phil and Tex did. They wanted to involve the team more. This would help them grow. And after watching the games and seeing how the defense played MJ and seeing how he did pass, this is why I think it is a combination of things. Phil and Tex coaching, players improving, MJ trusting in the system. It wasn't really a ballhog per say as much as it was getting the offensive system in place, getting the players to buy in, and improving their skills. And when they get into a difficult situation again, they are already practiced for that situation.

The way MJ was playing in 89 was like he needed better shooters around him playing like that. But again, he gave the Pistons their only two losses. And the Bulls weren't even supposed to reach that far. And his teammates missed open shots. They were making them in 91 for sure.

But I suppose here is what I'm trying to say in a clearer way. Relative to the time, MJ was a ball hog. Magic and Bird didn't play that way and they won. MJ took too many shots, took difficult shots, and etc. He was so skilled that he went in half the time, but ppl say it wasn't the way to win championships and best utilize the team. Nowadays? His style is anything but a ball hog. If that was ball hogging, then they didn't see AI yet. They didn't see Kobe yet. They didn't see James Harden. They didn't see Luka.

It was before the guard dominance era. MJ didn't play like the guards who dominant the ball now, who would've considered to be ball hogs. But the previous gen and that gen who saw MJ thought he was a ball hog. Nowadays, anybody watching it would probably think it was overstated.

[Micku]

Russell won 11 times and we never heard stories of him being an asshole towards teammates.

Brady has 7 and loved by teammates.

Hahaha, they didn't snitch probably! Haha! I don't know. I never heard that much about Russell stories either as a player. But I heard some stuff as a coach. Kenny would say on TNT sometimes. Calling some of his players losers.

And Brady did yell at his teammates.

I think straight up there are different ways to approach the game and win. MJ did it one way, but LeBron or Tim Duncan did it another. I think Pippen could win a chip with him being the leader of his own team too in terms of scoring. It would just be a bit harder, but it's doable.

Ppl do talk about MJ punching Steve Kerr. But Shaq got into a fight with Kobe. Shaq tried to punch him. Hakeem was slapping Vernon Maxwell and probably slapped other teammates. And we haven't even heard all of the stories that came out of pre muslim Hakeem. Magic would yell at his teammates and throw a fastball at one I think.

It doesn't happen to all championship teams tho. The Spurs were drama free. Miami Heat 06 was drama free. I didn't hear about the Pistons. If anything happened, they kept it under wraps. MJ was an asshole and tried to yell in order to lit a fire under his teammates. But it's shown that you could win without doing all that. That's just how he played. Pippen was a nice alternative for that and his teammates loved him for it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

https://i.postimg.cc/sX6nvVY2/Untitled2.png

https://fadeawayworld.net/former-bulls-champion-ron-harper-takes-a-shot-at-scottie-pippen-for-his-controversial-take-on-michael-jordan

Harp on point :lol

[ImKobe]

https://i.postimg.cc/sX6nvVY2/Untitled2.png

https://fadeawayworld.net/former-bulls-champion-ron-harper-takes-a-shot-at-scottie-pippen-for-his-controversial-take-on-michael-jordan

Harp on point :lol

No one likes Scottie

no wonder his wife cucked him

[Soundwave]

I'm not talking about the Bulls without MJ. Neither was Pippen. Why hold Jordan accountable for games he (Jordan) didn't play in? He's talking about the games Jordan did play in. Again, go back to what you said. The Bulls were 9-9 with Jordan. Jordan didn't trust his teammates. Now something has to give here. The biggest knock on Pippen is that he wasn't great scorer. Some would say he was even a bad scorer (smdh). Just to give my argument some scale, players like Tim Duncan and Grant Hill had only 1 or 2 seasons of over 10 years of play in which they scored more than the 22ppg that Pippen did in 94. Without having a player as ball dominant as Jordan to have to play with. But because they were able to accomplish more than 22ppg once or twice, theyre deemed to be the far superior offensive player to Pippen. Well, Orlando Woolridge hit 26ppg one time in his career. Gervin was coming off an allstar season and is considered one of the greatest scorers the league has ever had. And his age shouldn't be considered because Pippen gets cut no slack for not being able to win at damn near 35 years old and much more milage than Gervin had at 33. Gervin said he didn't play much in that series vs the Celtics because Jordan didn't want him to. And I believe that because like Jordan at the time, Gervin was more of a 1 man show offensively. Jordan was able to coexist so well with Pippen because Pippen wasn't a selfish player, and more importantly, he could impact a game without having to score a bunch of points.

Now, I beleieve Jordan needed more help. But when trolls try to relegate success in basketball to just scoring, then theyre gonna have to answer why Jordan couldnt even get a win when he had 2 players that could get you more than 20ppg on that team in 86. The argument that Jordan would've won earlier if he had more offensive help is a bold faced lie because he had plenty of guys that could score.

lol maybe because they were playing the freaking best version of the 80s BOSTON CELTICS in the 1st round because Jordan's foot was broken?

You know like one of the greatest teams of all time?

[Soundwave]

No one likes Scottie

no wonder his wife cucked him

He's going to burn down all the bridges he has with the Bulls organization and dynasty era players.

Kukoc chose Jordan and Reinsdorf to welcome him into the Hall of Fame, left Pippen out.

https://images.eurohoops.net/2021/09/9563b172-kukoc-jordan-hall-of-fame.jpg

Harper now calling out Scottie.

Also if Scottie wants to take shots at Jordan for his first 2-3 seasons in the league (where he didn't even really play much in the 2nd season period) ... what about Pippen?

What the **** was he for his first 2-3 years in the league? Nothing special at all.

[SATAN]

Kukoc chose Jordan and Reinsdorf to welcome him into the Hall of Fame, left Pippen out.

He also left out every other player. So? Maybe Pippen didn't wanna go. :confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

He also left out every other player. So? Maybe Pippen didn't wanna go. :confusedshrug:

I mean quite interesting that he chooses Jordan over Pippen.

Think Toni deep down still has some side-eye towards Pippen for acting like a jerk off over him making more money than Pippen for a couple of years and also getting the call for the game 3 do or die shot in the 94 Knicks series.

That's not something I would forget either.

[Baller789]

I mean quite interesting that he chooses Jordan over Pippen.

Think Toni deep down still has some side-eye towards Pippen for acting like a jerk off over him making more money than Pippen for a couple of years and also getting the call for the game 3 do or die shot in the 94 Knicks series.

That's not something I would forget either.

Pip was like a child for doing that.

May be if he actually had a consistent jumpshot, his coach might have drawn more end plays for him.

Instead he plays himself as the victim.

[97 bulls]

lol maybe because they were playing the freaking best version of the 80s BOSTON CELTICS in the 1st round because Jordan's foot was broken?

You know like one of the greatest teams of all time?

Again. The argument from people like you is that Jordans teamamtes were trash because he didn't have much offensive help. When he played the Celtics, he had two guys with him that could drop 30 at nau given time. One being another Hall of Famer in George Gervin.

I say this to prove that success in basketball goes far past scoring.

[Baller789]

Again. The argument from people like you is that Jordans teamamtes were trash because he didn't have much offensive help. When he played the Celtics, he had two guys with him that could drop 30 at nau given time. One being another Hall of Famer in George Gervin.

I say this to prove that success in basketball goes far past scoring.

Wait. George Gervin?

[Bawkish]

Wait. George Gervin?

That's like saying, "Why can't Bron trusted Shaq to score more when they were teammates?, He's the MDE for chrissakes!! It ain't all about scoring bruh!!!"