Dwight Howard says he had a better prime than Nikola Jokic

[Im Still Ballin]

https://twitter.com/FanDuelTV/status/1663198511582654464

Thoughts?

[SouBeachTalents]

I mean, of course he's going to pick himself :lol He at least did in a non serious way.

While Jokic is obv better, I really think I'd take prime Dwight over Embiid. I'd like to think he would've led the Sixers past the second round at least once by now.

[Im Still Ballin]

Some notable information from Dwight's prime. Had individual accolades, team, and playoff success.



From 2007-2008 through 2011-2012 (5 seasons):

- 5x All-NBA First Team
- 4x All-Defensive First Team, 1x All-Defensive Second Team
- 3x DPOY (should've won in 2012 but his trade request turned the media against him)
- 4 top 5 finishes in MVP voting (and he was 2nd to Rose in 2011)
- He won 52, 59, 59, 52, and 37 (66-game lockout season) games in the regular season, respectively
- He got to the Conference Finals twice, one time getting to the Finals
- Overall he was like a top 3-5 player in the league during that stretch.

[Im Still Ballin]

I mean, of course he's going to pick himself :lol He at least did in a non serious way.

While Jokic is obv better, I really think I'd take prime Dwight over Embiid. I'd like to think he would've led the Sixers past the second round at least once by now.

I agree, although I'm more bullish on Dwight than most. I definitely agree regarding the Embiid take and argued it a month or two back.

[highwhey]

It’s not an outrageous take. Give a prime Dwight this nuggets roster and they’d be a contender. Everyone acting like nikola is doing it all by himself. He has a great offensive cast.

Rashard Lewis was never as good as Murray. Even on roids.

[BurningHammer]

Nikola won't hear that because he has two MVPs plugging in his ears.

[BarberSchool]

Anyone having adult expectations of Dwight Howard at this point is being ridiculous, unserious, and even borderline cruel.

His mind clearly never developed past a grade school level.
He is to some degree a very high functioning retarded man.

[GimmeThat]

he lived his life with no regrets, it's nice this is something we can hold him accountable for.

[FultzNationRISE]

Anyone having adult expectations of Dwight Howard at this point is being ridiculous, unserious, and even borderline cruel.

His mind clearly never developed past a grade school level.
He is to some degree a very high functioning retarded man.


@highwhey

[Im Still Ballin]

Some playoff numbers. Dwight was the most efficient scorer despite playing in the most defensive-oriented period of time. His rFG and rTS numbers would look great. I wonder what his numbers would look like in today's league. More pace, spacing, and PnR would up his efficiency and usage for sure.


Dwight Howard '08-'11:

- 53 games
- 20.2 ppg, 14.3 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.8 spg, 2.9 bpg, 3.5 topg
- 60.4% FG, 59.6% FT, 62.5% TS, 24.2% usage rate

Joel Embiid '18-'23:

- 53 games
- 24.0 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.8 spg, 1.8 bpg, 3.6 topg
- 46.1% FG, 82.3% FT, 57.9% TS, 31.0% usage rate

Nikola Jokic '19-'23:

- 63 games
- 27.3 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 7.3 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.2 topg
- 52.4% FG, 82.4% FT, 61.0% TS, 30.4% usage rate

Anthony Davis '15-'23:

- 55 games
- 25.9 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 2.7 apg, 1.3 spg, 2.2 bpg, 2.3 topg
- 53.3% FG, 84.1% FT, 61.8% TS, 27.4% usage rate

[Full Court]

Agreed. At his peak I'd put him just above Jokic due to his being elite on both ends of the court.

Looks Jokic could still accomplish more when all is said and done though. Also, a way past prime Howard worked Jokic over in the 2020 playoffs.

[1987_Lakers]

Dwight was far from "elite" on the offensive end.

Jokic is clearly the better player of the two at their peaks. It's not a landslide, but pretty noticeable.

[FultzNationRISE]

Agreed. At his peak I'd put him just above Jokic due to his being elite on both ends of the court.

Looks Jokic could still accomplish more when all is said and done though. Also, a way past prime Howard worked Jokic over in the 2020 playoffs.


Yeah, Dwight’s post-Orlando career trajectory was really interesting. It was basically:

Trash, trash, trash, trash, trash, RESURGENCE/CHAMPION, trash, trash, trash…

And that one abrupt year of resurgence and becoming a champion was with…



LeGuessWho.

[Im Still Ballin]

Dwight was far from "elite" on the offensive end.

Jokic is clearly the better player of the two at their peaks. It's not a landslide, but pretty noticeable.

It depends on what one means by "elite."

Dwight's scoring efficiency was very high, while his volume was moderate, and his diversity low. Wasn't much of a creator but his assists per game sell him short a little. Hockey assists, screen assists, and off-ball gravity opened up shots for teammates. Offensive rebounding created new possessions altogether.

Don't forget the foul pressure and his low usage/dominance of possession. He was a very easy player to play with, which should be considered a plus.

What does it take to be classified as an elite offensive player?

Anyone putting up 20+ PPG on 60%+ FG and 62.5% TS is pretty damn good on offense. Especially when those numbers occur in a league where the average 2pt percentage is 48.7% and the average true shooting percentage is 54.2% TS.

He was definitely flawed. Couldn't do what others could, but you could say the same for them regarding Dwight.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Dwight was Bam on steroids. And we all saw how good of a job washed Howard did on prime Jokic defensively. He might not be better than Jokic individually but he might lock him down and create a bad matchup team wise. Like Embiid and Horford or Gasol.

[ArbitraryWater]

Agreed. At his peak I'd put him just above Jokic due to his being elite on both ends of the court.

Looks Jokic could still accomplish more when all is said and done though. Also, a way past prime Howard worked Jokic over in the 2020 playoffs.


:oldlol::oldlol::oldlol:


classic full court take

[1987_Lakers]

Jokic is closer to Larry Bird than he is Dwight.

[tpols]

Anyone having adult expectations of Dwight Howard at this point is being ridiculous, unserious, and even borderline cruel.

His mind clearly never developed past a grade school level.
He is to some degree a very high functioning retarded man.

That's why he's got that retard strength though. His prime athleticism was undeniable. But he's got a peanut head and brain on top of the superman frame.

[1987_Lakers]

The forgotten awkward moment in NBA history


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y08gvGpGCwA

[Im Still Ballin]

Dwight was Bam on steroids. And we all saw how good of a job washed Howard did on prime Jokic defensively. He might not be better than Jokic individually but he might lock him down and create a bad matchup team wise. Like Embiid and Horford or Gasol.

Dwight never had Bam's DHO passing game. I do wonder if he would've developed that had he come up in today's era. He also never had Bam's range. Fun fact: Bam shot 49.8% on shots from 10-16 this season. 26.5% of his field goals, too - good volume.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jokic is clearly a top 5 all-time caliber player. top 5 arguable peak already assuming he wins and dominates the finals.

People have underrated Jokic up until this point because the lack of playoff success, but after a ring his 3 year run will be viewed in a much more favorable light. It's not even close between him and Dwight.

[SouBeachTalents]

Dwight never had Bam's DHO passing game. I do wonder if he would've developed that had he come up in today's era. He also never had Bam's range. Fun fact: Bam shot 49.8% on shots from 10-16 this season. 26.5% of his field goals, too - good volume.
Yeah, I don’t think they’re comparable at all :lol He honestly plays nothing like Bam.

[tpols]

Dwight never had Bam's DHO passing game. I do wonder if he would've developed that had he come up in today's era. He also never had Bam's range. Fun fact: Bam shot 49.8% on shots from 10-16 this season. 26.5% of his field goals, too - good volume.

Bam couldn't buy even a 5 foot hook shot last game. :lol it's like there was a lid on the rim.

[Im Still Ballin]

I imagine prime Dwight's playoff numbers might have looked something like this in today's era:

'20-'23:

- 22-23 ppg, 13-14 rpg, 1-2 apg, 0.8 spg, 2.9 bpg
- 65.1% FG, 59.6% FT, 66.3% TS

The FG% and TS% are simple adjustments from 2008-2011 to 2020-2023. He's adding extra points from that alone. You'd have to think his usage goes up a little due to more PnR and increased spacing. Those numbers, aside from the shooting percentages, are close to what AD did in the 2023 playoffs.

The PPG might even be selling him short. The era-adjustment by itself takes him from 20.4 to 21.5 ppg. Maybe 23-25 ppg all things considered.

[TheMan]

Dwight was far from "elite" on the offensive end.

Jokic is clearly the better player of the two at their peaks. It's not a landslide, but pretty noticeable.

I don't disagree with that but put prime Howard with this Nuggets team and I think they would be a more balanced team. What they lose in Jokic's O they more than make up in Howard's D...that's a nasty team right there.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Joker is a starter.

Dwight was the fifth option, by his own choice.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I don't disagree with that but put prime Howard with this Nuggets team and I think they would be a more balanced team. What they lose in Jokic's O they more than make up in Howard's D...that's a nasty team right there.

What the fukk does this even mean? :lol


Yeah losing a GOAT tier scorer and passer with extremely high IQ is made up because of Dwights defense. Makes no sense.

[90sgoat]

They're completely different players, so no use in comparing them.

Dwight to me looks bad in retrospect, because he played so many seasons after his backinjury where he was honestly trash.

He never improved offensively, so when his jumping ability went, it looked very ugly, until he accepted being a role player.

[1_BAD_TIGER]

It’s not an outrageous take. Give a prime Dwight this nuggets roster and they’d be a contender. Everyone acting like nikola is doing it all by himself. He has a great offensive cast.

Rashard Lewis was never as good as Murray. Even on roids.

No way, a prime Dwight on this Nugget squad is a second round exit team. Howard can't do what Jokic does, plus he couldn't hit a FT to save his life. Without Jokic to keep the offense running, they would have to rely on Mick Malone's play calling which is average at best.

[Im Still Ballin]

No way, a prime Dwight on this Nugget squad is a second round exit team. Howard can't do what Jokic does, plus he couldn't hit a FT to save his life. Without Jokic to keep the offense running, they would have to rely on Mick Malone's play calling which is average at best.

I don't know, prime Dwight beat the '09 Celtics and '09 Cavaliers.

Even without Garnett, Boston went 18-7 and won a playoff series. Not to mention that NBA All-Star Jameer Nelson was out injured. Orlando really challenged LA in the NBA Finals too. It was a five-game series with two OT games that LA won. It would've been a seven-game series if Orlando won those.

Jamal Murray would work perfectly with Dwight; he's like a supercharged Jameer Nelson in this context. I'm not sure about the Aaron Gordon fit but you could trade him for like a Jerami Grant.

Jamal Murray
Kentavious-Caldwell Pope
Michael Porter Jr
Jerami Grant
Dwight Howard

That's a great starting five right there. Better than any of Dwight's in Orlando.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I don't know, prime Dwight beat the '09 Celtics and '09 Cavaliers.

Even without Garnett, Boston went 18-7 and won a playoff series. Not to mention that NBA All-Star Jameer Nelson was out injured. Orlando really challenged LA in the NBA Finals too. It was a five-game series with two OT games that LA won. It would've been a seven-game series if Orlando won those.

Jamal Murray would work perfectly with Dwight; he's like a supercharged Jameer Nelson in this context. I'm not sure about the Aaron Gordon fit but you could trade him for like a Jerami Grant.

Jamal Murray
Kentavious-Caldwell Pope
Michael Porter Jr
Jerami Grant
Dwight Howard

That's a great starting five right there. Better than any of Dwight's in Orlando.

Dwight's teams were way ahead of the curve and had ample spacing, way more than other teams.

And no you can't trade Gordon for Jeremi Grant.


Stop trying to make this comparison happen.

[Im Still Ballin]

Dwight's teams were way ahead of the curve and had ample spacing, way more than other teams.

And no you can't trade Gordon for Jeremi Grant.


Stop trying to make this comparison happen.

Time machines don't exist last time I checked. All of this is hypothetical; I can do whatever I want. I'll make the trade, thanks. Gordon and Grant seem like they're on a similar tier.

[Micku]

I don't know, prime Dwight beat the '09 Celtics and '09 Cavaliers.

Even without Garnett, Boston went 18-7 and won a playoff series. Not to mention that NBA All-Star Jameer Nelson was out injured. Orlando really challenged LA in the NBA Finals too. It was a five-game series with two OT games that LA won. It would've been a seven-game series if Orlando won those.

Jamal Murray would work perfectly with Dwight; he's like a supercharged Jameer Nelson in this context. I'm not sure about the Aaron Gordon fit but you could trade him for like a Jerami Grant.

Jamal Murray
Kentavious-Caldwell Pope
Michael Porter Jr
Jerami Grant
Dwight Howard

That's a great starting five right there. Better than any of Dwight's in Orlando.

I think Howard's second best player in those Magic years was Hedo Turkoglu for a while.

I think this Denver team would fit well around Howard but obviously, they wouldn't be good offensively. They would be better defensively. And Jermai Grant is a better fit for Howard than Gordon. Michael Malone would have to change a lot of things tho. He probably won't be the right coach for Howard's play style.

I don't think they would be better than a Jokic lead team, but I think Howard team wouldn't do that bad. But I do think they would struggle more with the Suns and the Lakers. Since Jokic can pull centers out of the paint and his passing ability is arguably the best in the league, they wouldn't be able to get easy points. AD and Ayton would be able to rim protect better. Howard isn't really the type of player that you could always rely on to get a bucket like Jokic. Remember he averaged like 15 ppg in the finals with 48% shooting against the Lakers. It's mostly because they had big bodies to throw down there. They played him one-on-one if I recall. They didn't really double, but they had big bodies that could bang with him. He didn't score with the Celtics too, only averaging about 16 pts. Granted, there is more of a small ball era than the 09, so I would imagine a prime Howard would take better advantage of that. But he had the talent back then, just not the skill or the aggressive nature.

It's unknown whatever his defense could cover for his lack of go to moves offensively like that. But I guess it's a self-bet to say team wouldn't be as good offensively. They wouldn't get as many open 3s. Jokic playmaking is contagious too, and they wouldn't have that with Howard.

I don't think Howard was that guy. He developed more moves in 2011 season. I feel like he was at his peak there.

[Im Still Ballin]

I think Howard's second best player in those Magic years was Hedo Turkoglu for a while.

I think this Denver team would fit well around Howard but obviously, they wouldn't be good offensively. They would be better defensively. And Jermai Grant is a better fit for Howard than Gordon. Michael Malone would have to change a lot of things tho. He probably won't be the right coach for Howard's play style.

I don't think they would be better than a Jokic lead team, but I think Howard team wouldn't do that bad. But I do think they would struggle more with the Suns and the Lakers. Since Jokic can pull centers out of the paint and his passing ability is arguably the best in the league, they wouldn't be able to get easy points. AD and Ayton would be able to rim protect better. Howard isn't really the type of player that you could always rely on to get a bucket like Jokic. Remember he averaged like 15 ppg in the finals with 48% shooting against the Lakers. It's mostly because they had big bodies to throw down there. They played him one-on-one if I recall. They didn't really double, but they had big bodies that could bang with him. He didn't score with the Celtics too, only averaging about 16 pts. Granted, there is more of a small ball era than the 09, so I would imagine a prime Howard would take better advantage of that. But he had the talent back then, just not the skill or the aggressive nature.

It's unknown whatever his defense could cover for his lack of go to moves offensively like that. But I guess it's a self-bet to say team wouldn't be as good offensively. They wouldn't get as many open 3s. Jokic playmaking is contagious too, and they wouldn't have that with Howard.

I don't think Howard was that guy. He developed more moves in 2011 season. I feel like he was at his peak there.

All fair points.

Just to reiterate to everyone in this thread: I'd take Jokic over Dwight. I hope that's not lost on anyone. Embiid is a different story, however. And I'd take this Jokic-led Denver team over the hypothetical Dwight-led one I listed. But I could see it making the Finals like The Nuggets did this year.

[SouBeachTalents]

Could the Nuggets make the Finals with Dwight? Sure. I think there's a good chance they lose to Phoenix without Jokic's GOAT tier series, and they definitely don't sweep the Lakers. Dwight was a great player, but Jokic is legitimately top 10 caliber, I feel like way too many posters have tried to claim that they're equals in this thread, when they really aren't, or even frankly that close to it.

[Im Still Ballin]

Could the Nuggets make the Finals with Dwight? Sure. I think there's a good chance they lose to Phoenix without Jokic's GOAT tier series, and they definitely don't sweep the Lakers. Dwight was a great player, but Jokic is legitimately top 10 caliber, I feel like way too many posters have tried to claim that they're equals in this thread, when they really aren't, or even frankly that close to it.

Agreed on all points.

I do think that the hypothetical Denver team with Prime Dwight that I listed could beat Jokic's Denver squad. Just as Dwight beat LeBron in 2009. Doesn't make him better, though. Sometimes it happens. Boston got swept by Milwaukee in 1983. Houston beat LA in 1981.

[FultzNationRISE]

Dwight would still be a great defender today by today’s standards, but I do think he loses some impact in today’s game as all defensive bigs currently do, in that it’s simply a more perimeter oriented league. Three blocks per game means more when an average score is 91-88 than when it’s 127-122.

As far as the Nuggets with Dwight, they would lack playmaking and not be a dangerous team. Murray is mainly a scorer, and the Nuggets dont have any point forwards like Turkoglu. The offense would not be consistent enough to make a serious run in today’s game IMO, even with the addition of elite rim protection.

[Micku]

Could the Nuggets make the Finals with Dwight? Sure. I think there's a good chance they lose to Phoenix without Jokic's GOAT tier series, and they definitely don't sweep the Lakers. Dwight was a great player, but Jokic is legitimately top 10 caliber, I feel like way too many posters have tried to claim that they're equals in this thread, when they really aren't, or even frankly that close to it.

I think so too. I think with the Denver squad that they could potentially make it to the finals with Dwight. It would be a harder road. The Lakers definitely wouldn't be a sweep. And the Suns would've been shaky too for them to get pass.

[RRR3]

Agreed on all points.

I do think that the hypothetical Denver team with Prime Dwight that I listed could beat Jokic's Denver squad. Just as Dwight beat LeBron in 2009. Doesn't make him better, though. Sometimes it happens. Boston got swept by Milwaukee in 1983. Houston beat LA in 1981.
Dwight beat LeBron because LeBron was playing with absolute trash.

[Im Still Ballin]

Dwight would still be a great defender today by today’s standards, but I do think he loses some impact in today’s game as all defensive bigs currently do, in that it’s simply a more perimeter oriented league. Three blocks per game means more when an average score is 91-88 than when it’s 127-122.


We just saw Anthony Davis - the closest defender to prime Dwight - dominate in the playoffs with his defense. I don't see why Dwight couldn't do the same. He had the same unique ability as AD. He could defend both the ball handler and the roll man at the same time.

Unlike Davis, Prime Dwight was durable as hell and had world-class conditioning and motor.

But you may be right. Hard to say.


As far as the Nuggets with Dwight, they would lack playmaking and not be a dangerous team. Murray is mainly a scorer, and the Nuggets dont have any point forwards like Turkoglu who fit Dwight’s Magic perfectly.

They would just lose a ton of general offensive mojo/playmaking/chemistry, and even elite rim protection defensively would not be enough to compensate the way the game is played now IMO.

Is Jamal Murray not good enough of a playmaker? Just how important was Jameer's playmaking? He went down with an injury and they didn't miss a beat. Went 27-12 and won three playoff series.

Not to mention, Hedo left the team after 2009 and they won the same amount of games. They had a higher SRS too. Including the postseason, they had three fewer wins but a better W/L percentage overall I believe.

2009 Orlando: 72-34
2010 Orlando: 69-27

Players were in and out of that Orlando team but they continued to perform well. Dwight was the one primary constant.

[FultzNationRISE]

We just saw Anthony Davis - the closest defender to prime Dwight - dominate in the playoffs with his defense. I don't see why Dwight couldn't do the same. He had the same unique ability as AD. He could defend both the ball handler and the roll man at the same time.


AD’s defense was great and helpful, he didnt “dominate” the result of games with his defense. Most of their losses came when his offense failed to show up, regardless of how he played D.

Also youre comparing a team with Lebron Raymone James to a Nuggets team with no high level playmakers besides Jokic.

It’s apple juice to orange soda.

[Im Still Ballin]

Dwight beat LeBron because LeBron was playing with absolute trash.

You really add to this forum, don't you? Fascinating contribution.

[FultzNationRISE]

Put it this way: Replace AD with Jokic and how far do you think the Lakers go?

They would sweep thru the finals quite possibly.

Thats the difference between Jokic and Dwight on the Nuggets.

[RRR3]

You really add to this forum, don't you? Fascinating contribution.
We can't all have genius ideas like Dwight Howard would beat Nikola Jokic with equal casts :facepalm

[Im Still Ballin]

We can't all have genius ideas like Dwight Howard would beat Nikola Jokic with equal casts :facepalm

Like how Moses in 1981 beat Kareem and Magic? Sometimes it happens. Doesn't mean as much as people want it to. You misquoted me by the way. I said could. Not would. Better teams than Denver have lost to worse teams than Prime Dwight's Orlando Magic... Or that hypothetical team.

[SaltyMeatballs]

Dwight beat LeBron because LeBron was playing with absolute trash.

Exactly. LeBron was going off in that series. His supporting cast wasn't doing jack

[warriorfan]

You really add to this forum, don't you? Fascinating contribution.

lmfao


Dwight beat LeBron because LeBron was playing with absolute trash.

It was good enough to get 66 wins in the East. I guess the entire conference was trash then.

The Magic were starting an and1 point guard, lol

[AlternativeAcc.]

Exactly. LeBron was going off in that series. His supporting cast wasn't doing jack

Magic shot 41% from 3 in that series on far more attempts than Cle, who only shot 32%,


This idea that Dwight's numbers would go crazy in todays game because of increased spacing is nonsense. He had elite spacing already. It's his defensive game that would take a major hit in todays league if anything, due to increased 3pt shooting league wide forcing him out of the paint.

[1987_Lakers]

It was good enough to get 66 wins in the East. I guess the entire conference was trash then.

Warriors got 73 wins in 2016 and we all know what happened.

[TheMan]

Magic shot 41% from 3 in that series on far more attempts than Cle, who only shot 32%,


This idea that Dwight's numbers would go crazy in todays game because of increased spacing is nonsense. He had elite spacing already. It's his defensive game that would take a major hit in todays league if anything, due to increased 3pt shooting league wide forcing him out of the paint.

Changing the subject, g'head and tell me who's winning tonight, Nostradamus? :lol

[RRR3]

lmfao



It was good enough to get 66 wins in the East. I guess the entire conference was trash then.

The Magic were starting an and1 point guard, lol
They got 66 wins because of peak LeBron. One man teams can dominate a regular season but not the playoffs. Not that you’d know about one man teams because Steph has never been on one since he became a star. God you’re dumb.

[RRR3]

Warriors got 73 wins in 2016 and we all know what happened.
Commence him sobbing Draymond wasn’t allowed to play MMA

[Im Still Ballin]

Magic shot 41% from 3 in that series on far more attempts than Cle, who only shot 32%,


This idea that Dwight's numbers would go crazy in todays game because of increased spacing is nonsense. He had elite spacing already. It's his defensive game that would take a major hit in todays league if anything, due to increased 3pt shooting league wide forcing him out of the paint.

2009 Orlando shot 49.5% on two-point shots. 2023 Orlando shot 53.9%. The three-point attempt rate went up by 2.6% too, and Orlando is ranked 22nd out of 30.

So, let me get this straight. League-wide 2pt % goes up like 7.5%, the three-point rate goes up significantly, and pick-and-roll frequency increases... Yet Dwight wouldn't see an increase in his shooting percentage?

We have guys like Mason Plumlee and Nick Claxton shooting damn near 70% on 6-8 two-point field goals. Deandre Ayton scoring more efficiently and taking more two-point shots than Dwight? Come on, man. Look at this page; filter by 2pt%.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_game.html

Dwight would be doing like 65-70% FG on 11+ attempts per game. If Nick Claxton is doing 70.8% on 7.7 attempts, prime Dwight is doing better.

I don't think you understand. 2009 Orlando would be a below-average protomodern team. Almost all of the teams in the league shoot more threes relatively speaking. Set more screen and rolls too.

[RRR3]

2009 Orlando shot 49.5% on two-point shots. 2023 Orlando shot 53.9%. The three-point attempt rate went up by 2.6% too, and Orlando is ranked 22nd out of 30.

So, let me get this straight. League-wide 2pt % goes up like 7.5%, the three-point rate goes up significantly, and pick-and-roll frequency increases... Yet Dwight wouldn't see an increase in his shooting percentage?

We have guys like Mason Plumlee and Nick Claxton shooting damn near 70% on 6-8 two-point field goals. Deandre Ayton scoring more efficiently and taking more two-point shots than Dwight? Come on, man. Look at this page; filter by 2pt%.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_game.html

Dwight would be doing like 65-70% FG on 11+ attempts per game. If Nick Claxton is doing 70.8% on 7.7 attempts, prime Dwight is doing better.

I don't think you understand. 2009 Orlando would be a below-average protomodern team. Almost all of the teams in the league shoot more threes relatively speaking. Set more screen and rolls too.
Dwight shooting that high would mean you’re eliminating asking him to create for himself which imo makes it unlikely he threatens to average 25 like you’ve said.

[AlternativeAcc.]

2009 Orlando shot 49.5% on two-point shots. 2023 Orlando shot 53.9%. The three-point attempt rate went up by 2.6% too, and Orlando is ranked 22nd out of 30.

So, let me get this straight. League-wide 2pt % goes up like 7.5%, the three-point rate goes up significantly, and pick-and-roll frequency increases... Yet Dwight wouldn't see an increase in his shooting percentage?

We have guys like Mason Plumlee and Nick Claxton shooting damn near 70% on 6-8 two-point field goals. Deandre Ayton scoring more efficiently and taking more two-point shots than Dwight? Come on, man. Look at this page; filter by 2pt%.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_game.html

Dwight would be doing like 65-70% FG on 11+ attempts per game. If Nick Claxton is doing 70.8% on 7.7 attempts, prime Dwight is doing better.

I don't think you understand. 2009 Orlando would be a below-average protomodern team. Almost all of the teams in the league shoot more threes relatively speaking. Set more screen and rolls too.
The only guy I see scoring more than 20ppg and over 60% on 2's are Jokic and Durant. It's not like there's a crazy amount of guys doing it now.


Dwight would probably doing it obviously, but acting like he would take a massive leap on offense doesn't seem right. He would probably be slightly more efficient, but he's not miraculously a high volume scorer. His impact overall stays about the same.

[Im Still Ballin]

Dwight shooting that high would mean you’re eliminating asking him to create for himself which imo makes it unlikely he threatens to average 25 like you’ve said.

Would it? Dwight would still play bully ball in the post when plays break down and stagnate. When he has a mismatch. All that's changing is that he'd benefit from even more spacing and a greater focus on PnRs and DHOs. Here's a little 411 on prime Dwight's post-up game:


This video is a good representation of how Dwight's post-up game looked at its best. Notice how he rarely makes a shot further than five feet. How his strength and athleticism allow him to get high-percentage looks close to the basket. Whether that was backing down a guy or facing up and blowing by him. It wasn't pretty; people wouldn't call it skilled, but it was effective.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-s9vfrpOM0

Was he a great post-up player? I'm not sure; I'd have to see Synergy numbers. But anyone saying he was bad is just flat-out wrong. He was, at worst, a good pivot threat.

Would he average 25 ppg? Probably not. If you look at my original post, that was the maximal peak of my estimation. I said 22-23 ppg is more likely, and that 23-25 is a maybe. Dwight could do 25 ppg if he wanted to. He put up 22.9 ppg on 61.6% TS in 2011. He had a 40-game stretch averaging 24.5 ppg, 14.7 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.3 spg, 2.2 bpg on 60.4% FG, 63.1% TS.


The only guy I see scoring more than 20ppg and over 60% on 2's are Jokic and Durant. It's not like there's a crazy amount of guys doing it now.


Dwight would probably doing it obviously, but acting like he would take a massive leap on offense doesn't seem right. He would probably be slightly more efficient, but he's not miraculously a high volume scorer. His impact overall stays about the same.

It's all relative. 20 ppg on 60% FG back then would be like 23 ppg on 65% FG now. It's just numbers; the impact wouldn't change. He was a top-five guy then; he could be now. Dwight did 22.9 ppg on 59.3% FG in 2011, including a 41-game stretch of 24.5 ppg on 60.4% FG. That was a period of time when 25+ PPG scorers were scarce.

[AlternativeAcc.]

It's all relative. 20 ppg on 60% FG back then would be like 23 ppg on 65% FG now. It's just numbers; the impact wouldn't change. He was a top-five guy then; he could be now. Dwight did 22.9 ppg on 59.3% FG in 2011, including a 41-game stretch of 24.5 ppg on 60.4% FG. That was a period of time when 25+ PPG scorers were scarce.

But that implies Jokic goes down to 22ppg and loses 5% efficiency in 2009, and I'm not buying that. Guys like Dwight have a certain ceiling, and I think his numbers then would be about what he'd average now. He had more spacing than anyone at the time, his team took the same amount of 3's as the current Suns on better efficiency. They were perfectly suited for his game and maximized his numbers.

[kawhileonard2]

Dwight lost in round 1 to Josh Smith with HCA.

[NbaFan432]

Idk who’s better but Dwight was a beast and it saddens me people seem to have forgot. I remember thinking he was every bit as good as Lebron around like 2009-2011.

[1987_Lakers]

Idk who’s better but Dwight was a beast and it saddens me people seem to have forgot. I remember thinking he was every bit as good as Lebron around like 2009-2011.

You were greatly overrating him if that was your mindset.

The consensus was that he was top 5, but LeBron, Wade, & Kobe were seen as better players.

[SouBeachTalents]

Dwight lost in round 1 to Josh Smith with HCA.
You really add to this forum, don't you? Fascinating contribution.

[kawhileonard2]

Dwight beat LeBron because LeBron was playing with absolute trash.

He had Ben Wallace who won 4x DPOY and was the only allstar on a team that won it all. Also Mo Williams. Dwight was missing Nelson and still won.

[tpols]

Wow... Miami has came out with nothing.

Living up to those -320 odds.

[HighFlyer23]

Jokic is better than Howard ever was

Howard had 2 moves at best in the post

He didn’t have the IQ to even learn how to develop an offensive game aside from easy dunks and lay ups

[Im Still Ballin]

Jokic is better than Howard ever was

Howard had 2 moves at best in the post

He didn’t have the IQ to even learn how to develop an offensive game aside from easy dunks and lay ups

Could say the same about Giannis and even Shaq. You'd be surprised to know that Dwight and Shaq had similar shooting percentages outside the restricted area.


Shaq's numbers from the restricted area vs. outside it:

1999-2000
Restricted Area: 74.8% FG (763 FGA)
Everywhere Else: 42.7% FG (902 FGA)

2000-2001
Restricted Area: 77.4% FG (654 FGA)
Everywhere Else: 40.0% FG (768 FGA)

2001-2002
Restricted Area: 73.6% FG (662 FGA)
Everywhere Else: 39.7% FG (567 FGA)


Dwight's numbers from the restricted area vs. outside it:

2008-2009
Restricted Area: 70.0% FG (560 FGA)
Everywhere Else: 40.1% FG (419 FGA)

2009-2010
Restricted Area: 74.1% FG (483 FGA)
Everywhere Else: 43.3% FG (351 FGA)

2010-2011
Restricted Area: 73.6% FG (596 FGA)
Everywhere Else: 40.4% FG (448 FGA)

2011-2012 [Lockout-shortened season]
Restricted Area: 66.2% FG (447 FGA)
Everywhere Else: 43.0% FG (279 FGA)


Shaquille O'Neal 3-10 feet
Regular season: 43.4% FG (41.6% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 40.7% FG (46.1% of total shots attempted)

We only have numbers from 1997 onwards, but Hakeem's percentages are awesome; the numbers below include all his old, broken-down years.

Hakeem Olajuwon 3-10 feet
Regular season: 46.6% FG (28% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 52.1% FG (34.4% of total shots attempted)

It was really the super-deep paint presence where Shaq dominated. The restricted area. Similar to Dwight in that respect actually. It's funny how Dwight was criticized for his post-up game when his 3-10 feet numbers weren't too different from Shaq's.

Dwight Howard 3-10 feet
Regular season: 41.6% FG (33.6% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 40.5% FG (35.0% of total shots attempted)

[elementally morale]

But that implies Jokic goes down to 22ppg and loses 5% efficiency in 2009, and I'm not buying that. Guys like Dwight have a certain ceiling, and I think his numbers then would be about what he'd average now. He had more spacing than anyone at the time, his team took the same amount of 3's as the current Suns on better efficiency. They were perfectly suited for his game and maximized his numbers.

LeBron being eliminated does wonders to you abilities as a poster. :applause:
Keep up the good work. (With LeBron playing next year you can still post on this level. It's night and day compared to your usual self.)