Will Bam start making All-NBA after a couple titles like Pippen did?

[3ba11]

Their careers are eerily-similar except Bam landed alongside Jimmy Butler, while Pippen landed alongside a 35/6/6/3/2 DPOY

Can Bam's secondary production ride the winning spotlight to all-time status and media accolade?

[ShawkFactory]

If the Heat win multiple titles then yes, because it will be due to an extreme contribution from him. As it was with Pippen.

Bam is a strange player though because he doesn't have great hands or touch but is money from 10-15 feet and does everything defensively. He's a dawg.

[3ba11]

If the Heat win multiple titles then yes, because it will be due to an extreme contribution from him. As it was with Pippen.

Bam is a strange player though because he doesn't have great hands or touch but is money from 10-15 feet and does everything defensively. He's a dawg.


20 ppg as 2nd option normally doesn't make all-nba often - perennial all-nba is normally reserved for franchise players or the occasional dpoy center..

it's the same thing with Murray - if he wins a couple titles then he'll make all-nba every year like pippen

And 20 ppg of system points isn't "extreme contribution" when the 1st option is getting 35-40 and commanding all the defensive attention and being the primary defender on drexler or magic in the Finals - if Bam only has to get 20 ppg of flow points with bad efficiency and zero clutch while Butler gets 40 - that isn't "extreme contribution"

[ShawkFactory]

20 ppg as 2nd option normally doesn't make all-nba often - perennial all-nba is normally reserved for franchise players or the occasional dpoy center

And 20 ppg of system points isn't "extreme contribution" when the 1st option is getting 35-40 and commanding all the defensive attention - if Bam only has to get 20 ppg of flow points with bad efficiency and zero clutch - that isn't "extreme contribution"

Depends. If that guy wins multiple titles and proves that he has it in him to perform on the biggest stage and do the little things necessary to win then that's different from the norm. If the Heat rip off 2 straight titles and Bam scores 20ppg, plays great defense, and does the little things he's always well then no one will be talking about..Jaylen Brown, Bradley Beal, Trae Young, or even Donovan Mitchell being better.

[Charlie Sheen]

It used to be top 3 C, top 6 F, top 6 G

Now we are looking at top 15 players, > 65 games played

The old format Bam realistically only had a chance at one spot on 3rd team with Joker and Embiid expected to lock down the first 2 selections. There are many more paths for him to make all nba now.

[3ba11]

Depends. If that guy wins multiple titles and proves that he has it in him to perform on the biggest stage and do the little things necessary to win then that's different from the norm. If the Heat rip off 2 straight titles and Bam scores 20ppg, plays great defense, and does the little things he's always well then no one will be talking about..Jaylen Brown, Bradley Beal, Trae Young, or even Donovan Mitchell being better.


Tons of guys can do what you said (enlarged above), so the only difference is whether the sidekick is alongside a winner like MJ or a loser like Embiid - if the sidekick is alongside a winner, then their secondary production rides the winning spotlight to media accolade and all-time status.. If the sidekick ISN'T alongside a winner, then their secondary production gets the attention it deserves, aka none.

Bam's situation is similar to Murray - if Murray wins a couple titles, he will start to be a perennial all-nba player..

[ShawkFactory]

Tons of guys can do what you said (enlarged above), so the only difference is whether the sidekick is alongside a winner like MJ or a loser like Embiid - if the sidekick is alongside a winner, then they're secondary production rides the winning spotlight to media accolade and all-time status.. If the sidekick ISN'T alongside a winner, then their secondary production gets the attention it deserves, aka none.

Bam's situation is similar to Murray - if Murray wins a couple titles, he will start to be a perennial all-nba player..

There's some truth to that. But there's also truth in that some secondary players are built differently. Murray has multiple 30 ppg series and has shown that he can completely take over games at times. Bam has completely locked down entire offenses at times and does everything right regardless of the situation or how big the moment is. He does the dirty work for the Heat and makes fantastic decisions regularly.

"Winners" typically have secondary guys like that. It's not solely the one way in that the star makes the secondary. It's a mutualistic relationship.

Plenty of #2's don't have the ability to go off or the play the way it takes to win a title.

[jlip]

I only have one or two max responses in me to 3ball's meaningless troll threads. So no matter how or if he replies to this post, I may or may not respond.

Anyways, Pippen made the all star team before winning a title. He then made the All defensive 2nd team in 1991 which was a regular season all league achievement, meaning he made that BEFORE ever winning a title. Then after proving that he was the most effective perimeter defender on the Bulls during the 1991 Finals by holding Magic to his worse performance of the series in Game 2, which was the game that he served as the primary defender on Magic, his defensive prowess became well known landing him to the All Defensive 1st team in 1992 after just ONE title, not a couple, as mentioned in the OP. Pippen was also voted to the All NBA 2nd team in 1992 which was after winning just ONE title, not a couple considering again, the voting was done by the end of the regular season before the finals began. Then as early as February 1992 after only winning ONE title he was already getting talk about being the 2nd best all around player in the game and even better than Dominique who was averaging 28 ppg.


https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/02/24/out-of-the-shadow-after-years-of-being-eclipsed-by-his-teammate-michael-jordan-the-chicago-bulls-scottie-pippen-has-stepped-into-the-limelight

https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/02/03/the-nba

[3ba11]

There's some truth to that. But there's also truth in that some secondary players are built differently. Murray has multiple 30 ppg series and has shown that he can completely take over games at times. Bam has completely locked down entire offenses at times and does everything right regardless of the situation or how big the moment is. He does the dirty work for the Heat and makes fantastic decisions regularly.

"Winners" typically have secondary guys like that. It's not solely the one way in that the star makes the secondary. It's a mutualistic relationship.

Plenty of #2's don't have the ability to go off or the play the way it takes to win a title.


You're being results-oriented..

[ShawkFactory]

You're being results-oriented..

Ummm....

:lol

[3ba11]

Ummm....

:lol


If Bam was on another team where the 1st option lacked carry-job ability and the Heat didn't win, then no one would pay attention to Bam..

The only reason you notice Bam's intangibles and respect his secondary production is because Butler can carry the load and win with it.. Bam's 17 ppg looks like a shiny winner with "intangibles" only if Butler can carry him to a title by averaging 35 or so.

TLDR: the only 2nd options whose secondary production and "intangibles" get praised are the ones getting carried to titles by generational offensive talents like Curry or MJ - Butler or Jokic must achieve this goat-level to elevate Bam or Murray to media accolade like MJ/Curry did for their teammates

[plowking]

This is how you know 3ba11 doesn't know jackshit about basketball.

He sees some numbers and thinks Bam is comparable to Pippen.

Pippen is literally 3 times the player Bam is. Anyone who watched the series against Boston, or Bam's general play in the playoffs outside of a few select series will tell you how much he shrinks in the moment, and just plays far smaller than he is.

[John8204]

Bam is more Horace than Pip

[3ba11]

Bam shrinks in the moment, and just plays far smaller than he is.





WTF do you think Pippen did jfc?.... :biggums:... :whatever:


Pippen was the KINGPIN of shrinking and disappearing with bad games or bad series - his 4th quarter stats, clutch production and choking is literally the worst-ever and historic.. No one has more bad series or disappearances than Pippen.. No one..

No one disappeared in the 4th more than Pippen or had worse 4th quarter stats... No one hit fewer big shots (pippen has zero big shots in his entire prime)... No one has more historic chokes like the historic "migraine" game, or the kukoc miracle, or the hubert davis foul.... and many turnovers or missed FT's on the last possession to lose big playoff games like Game 4 of 98' ECF, or Game 1 of 99' First Round and many more.

[PeroAntic]

ppg bro strikes again

ppg ppg ppg

[3ba11]

ppg bro strikes again

ppg ppg ppg


Scoring help is the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed, except the GOAT - the GOAT is the only guy where scoring help wasn't that important

So when you say "ppg, ppg, ppg", you're talking about everyone else - that's what they need - tons of scoring help... only the goat didn't need ppg help

Not having scoring help forced MJ to defeat maximum defensive attention, aka carry scoring load in every series (unique to MJ and the toughest path that requires the most help)

[StrongLurk]

I remember Kobe getting the "winning spotlight" treatment when Shaq carried him to three rings. Kobe wasn't better than Duncan, Iverson, or even Vince Carter during those years. Shaq's dominant winning as first option give Kobe the "scott pippen" boost and overhyped him during those Shaq years.

Kobe had a putrid 15.6ppg on like 35% shooting in the 2000 finals, and then AI outscored him 35ppg to 24ppg in the 2001 finals.

[3ba11]

I remember Kobe getting the "winning spotlight" treatment when Shaq carried him to three rings. Kobe wasn't better than Duncan, Iverson, or even Vince Carter during those years. Shaq's dominant winning as first option give Kobe the "scott pippen" boost and overhyped him during those Shaq years.

Kobe had a putrid 15.6ppg on like 35% shooting in the 2000 finals, and then AI outscored him 35ppg to 24ppg in the 2001 finals.


I agree - Kobe was inflated until he won with secondary producer (pau), which Lebron has never done...

And he won Finals with his sidekick getting less than 20 ppg (which Lebron has never done)...

And he won by defeating maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load on championship level), which Lebron has never done..

Lebron can't carry scoring load on the championship level because his passing style needs more scoring help, while also being too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams - this is why he never beat ANY top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick

[tpols]

I remember Kobe getting the "winning spotlight" treatment when Shaq carried him to three rings. Kobe wasn't better than Duncan, Iverson, or even Vince Carter during those years. Shaq's dominant winning as first option give Kobe the "scott pippen" boost and overhyped him during those Shaq years.

Kobe had a putrid 15.6ppg on like 35% shooting in the 2000 finals, and then AI outscored him 35ppg to 24ppg in the 2001 finals.

Kobe got hurt early in the 2000 Finals intentionally by jalen rose which skewed his averages and ability.


https://youtu.be/f2GB-O3aDIQ

You're exposing yourself by not understanding the context of the situation.

If Kobe never won after Shaq, you'd have a point but he lapped Vince Carter, Duncan, Iverson, Tmac everybody in the late 2000s winning two rings with a guy that had never even made an All NBA team before he played with Kobe.

Pau and Pippen are similar in that regard. They were nice players but nowhere near superstar or even All NBA talents on their own.

[StrongLurk]

I agree - Kobe was inflated until he won with secondary producer (pau), which Lebron has never done...

And he won Finals with his sidekick getting less than 20 ppg (which Lebron has never done)...

And he won by defeating maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load on championship level), which Lebron has never done..

Lebron can't carry scoring load on the championship level because his passing style needs more scoring help, while also being too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams - this is why he never beat ANY top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick

Remember you had Lebron, Magic, and Shaq outside of the top 10 all time? I remember :roll:

[PeroAntic]

Scoring help is the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed, except the GOAT - the GOAT is the only guy where scoring help wasn't that important

So when you say "ppg, ppg, ppg", you're talking about everyone else - that's what they need - tons of scoring help... only the goat didn't need ppg help

Not having scoring help forced MJ to defeat maximum defensive attention, aka carry scoring load in every series (unique to MJ and the toughest path that requires the most help)

You get scoring help from the entire team, not one player. If the second top scorer of a title winning team was a 20 ppg player, it means he was doing other things great and there were others who chipped in with the scoring.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe got hurt early in the 2000 Finals intentionally by jalen rose which skewed his averages and ability.


https://youtu.be/f2GB-O3aDIQ

You're exposing yourself by not understanding the context of the situation.

If Kobe never won after Shaq, you'd have a point but he lapped Vince Carter, Duncan, Iverson, Tmac everybody in the late 2000s winning two rings with a guy that had never even made an All NBA team before he played with Kobe.

Pau and Pippen are similar in that regard. They were nice players but nowhere near superstar or even All NBA talents on their own.

I am completely aware of Kobe getting hurt during that series...but that makes it even worse for Kobe. Shaq STILL won with Kobe not at 100% and Kobe for some reason still gets "1st option" credit for that 2000 ring. All his stans say "Kobe has five rings" as his best all time argument and tries to count all those rings the same :roll: It's why Kobe ultimately can't be considered top five all time and his competition is with guys like Bird and Duncan in the back 10.

Hell Duncan was winning MVPs and FMVPs way before Kobe did.

[Hey Yo]

I only have one or two max responses in me to 3ball's meaningless troll threads. So no matter how or if he replies to this post, I may or may not respond.

Anyways, Pippen made the all star team before winning a title. He then made the All defensive 2nd team in 1991 which was a regular season all league achievement, meaning he made that BEFORE ever winning a title. Then after proving that he was the most effective perimeter defender on the Bulls during the 1991 Finals by holding Magic to his worse performance of the series in Game 2, which was the game that he served as the primary defender on Magic, his defensive prowess became well known landing him to the All Defensive 1st team in 1992 after just ONE title, not a couple, as mentioned in the OP. Pippen was also voted to the All NBA 2nd team in 1992 which was after winning just ONE title, not a couple considering again, the voting was done by the end of the regular season before the finals began. Then as early as February 1992 after only winning ONE title he was already getting talk about being the 2nd best all around player in the game and even better than Dominique who was averaging 28 ppg.


https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/02/24/out-of-the-shadow-after-years-of-being-eclipsed-by-his-teammate-michael-jordan-the-chicago-bulls-scottie-pippen-has-stepped-into-the-limelight

https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/02/03/the-nba

3ball hates when people point out the facts about Pippen shutting down Magic due to MJ not being up to the task after the 1st game. That's why he didn't reply to your post

[tpols]

Kobe for some reason still gets "1st option" credit for that 2000 ring


Literally... nobody has ever said that. Kobe was All NBA and All Defense in 2000 and before he got hurt vs the pacers was playing great, especially in their toughest test of the playoffs vs the trailblazers.

Kobe has a legit 4 superstar rings. He arguably had his most dominant post season in 2001 when he had better advanced metrics than Shaq over the entirety of the playoff run. You're cherrypicking series... I'm looking at the whole year and the whole run.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe got hurt early in the 2000 Finals intentionally by jalen rose which skewed his averages and ability.


https://youtu.be/f2GB-O3aDIQ

You're exposing yourself by not understanding the context of the situation.

If Kobe never won after Shaq, you'd have a point but he lapped Vince Carter, Duncan, Iverson, Tmac everybody in the late 2000s winning two rings with a guy that had never even made an All NBA team before he played with Kobe.

Pau and Pippen are similar in that regard. They were nice players but nowhere near superstar or even All NBA talents on their own.

If Kobe was injured, why take a combined 47fga in games 5 and 6 where he shot 12-47.

[3ba11]

.
DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)






holding Magic to his worse performance of the series in Game 2, which was the game that he served as the primary defender on Magic





Game 2 was a blowout win where Pippen's defense made no difference in the outcome

Game 3 was the nail-biter and series-shifter that required MJ to shut down Magic for the 4th quarter and OT where Pippen was MIA (pippen fouled out in regulation by choke-fouling Vlade on the last possession to lose the game, except MJ hit the game-tyer to force OT)

MJ was the primary defender on Magic for every game except Game 2 - his defense on a top 5 all-time player + his goat offense = the best 2-way performance anyone ever had