Why I don't blame Pippen for his views on Jordan and the Bulls.

[97 bulls]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cs87PdPu4bv/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

This video recaps Pippen's role in a tight game 1 win vs. the Jazz in the 97 Finals. Pippen is playing this championship series on a foot that needed surgery. A bunch of so-called Bulls fans and Jordanaires have gone out of their way to call Pippen "soft" and a "bum." Jordan called him selfish for opting to have surgery during the season. Pippen gave his heart and soul this series as he did the previous 4 championships. Only to find out that Krause was trying to trade him. Absolutely no loyalty. Then, his so-called friend Jordan, knowing all that had happened, calls him selfish in that Jordanmentary called the last dance.

Pippen was disrespected by the Bulls organization, the fans, and most of all Michael Jordan. I'd say eff them too.

[iamgine]

But playing his heart out was to his benefit since, you know, he was a competitor and badly wants to win. What you think it was charity that a player gave his heart and soul in the finals? :lol

MJ shouldn't say anything but calling someone selfish for delaying a surgery seems like a footnote. It's like calling MJ selfish for playing baseball, like why would it offend anyone.

[97 bulls]

But playing his heart out was to his benefit since, you know, he was a competitor and badly wants to win. What you think it was charity that a player gave his heart and soul in the finals? :lol
True. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be appreciated.


MJ shouldn't say anything but calling someone selfish for delaying a surgery seems like a footnote. It's like calling MJ selfish for playing baseball, like why would it offend anyone.
No one called MJ selfish for playing baseball until he called Pip selfish for opting to have surgery. It's the double standard.

[nayte]

What a shocker didn't expect that take.

[iamgine]

No one called MJ selfish for playing baseball until he called Pip selfish for opting to have surgery. It's the double standard.

I'm saying it's such a mild response to a situation.

[Airupthere]

True. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be appreciated.


No one called MJ selfish for playing baseball until he called Pip selfish for opting to have surgery. It's the double standard.

Do you agree with the level of meltdown that Pippen has been on so far? I don’t know this for a fact but if we reversed the situation and Pippen had called MJ selfish, do you think MJ would go nonstop spewing out BS after BS? I just think it’s unfortunate that whatever good memories that bulls, mj or pip fans had are just being ruined just because someone wanted to overreact and not even know when to stop.

[kawhileonard2]

What about that he wouldn't had been in the league more than 3 years hadn't he played with MJ and the Bulls.

[Airupthere]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cs87PdPu4bv/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

This video recaps Pippen's role in a tight game 1 win vs. the Jazz in the 97 Finals. Pippen is playing this championship series on a foot that needed surgery. A bunch of so-called Bulls fans and Jordanaires have gone out of their way to call Pippen "soft" and a "bum." Jordan called him selfish for opting to have surgery during the season. Pippen gave his heart and soul this series as he did the previous 4 championships. Only to find out that Krause was trying to trade him. Absolutely no loyalty. Then, his so-called friend Jordan, knowing all that had happened, calls him selfish in that Jordanmentary called the last dance.

Pippen was disrespected by the Bulls organization, the fans, and most of all Michael Jordan. I'd say eff them too.

You obviously share the same sentiments and sensitivity as Pippen. It’s just one big overreaction over the allegedly selfish comment by MJ when it’s surfacing that his sensitivity is due to reasons deeper than that. All these years that he feels he got pushed around and just lacking that sense of accountability for his past situations.

Better drop the 97bulls name and switch to pip assassin.

[Gudo]

Lost respect for Scottie in how he’s handled everything. Haven’t watched any of his highlights since and no longer planning to.

[plowking]

What about that he wouldn't had been in the league more than 3 years hadn't he played with MJ and the Bulls.

Damn Pippen out of the league in 3 years and therefore Jordan with no titles.

Different landscape for the NBA.

[97 bulls]

Lost respect for Scottie in how he’s handled everything. Haven’t watched any of his highlights since and no longer planning to.

So what should he have done? Just get bashed by his so-called teammate and friend? And then, fllw that up with all these Jordan fans is fans bash him in the media?

[97 bulls]

Do you agree with the level of meltdown that Pippen has been on so far? I don’t know this for a fact but if we reversed the situation and Pippen had called MJ selfish, do you think MJ would go nonstop spewing out BS after BS? I just think it’s unfortunate that whatever good memories that bulls, mj or pip fans had are just being ruined just because someone wanted to overreact and not even know when to stop.

Lol. Look at how Jordan is treating Isiah Thomas. He ended his friendship with Charles Barkley because Barkely said he had to many yes men around him. He called Isiah Thomas and "A" hole. Over something that happened in 1985? Jordan ain't never took the high road when it comes to handling people that he feels wronged him.

[Reggie43]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cs87PdPu4bv/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

This video recaps Pippen's role in a tight game 1 win vs. the Jazz in the 97 Finals. Pippen is playing this championship series on a foot that needed surgery. A bunch of so-called Bulls fans and Jordanaires have gone out of their way to call Pippen "soft" and a "bum." Jordan called him selfish for opting to have surgery during the season. Pippen gave his heart and soul this series as he did the previous 4 championships. Only to find out that Krause was trying to trade him. Absolutely no loyalty. Then, his so-called friend Jordan, knowing all that had happened, calls him selfish in that Jordanmentary called the last dance.

Pippen was disrespected by the Bulls organization, the fans, and most of all Michael Jordan. I'd say eff them too.

Loved his block on Russell which led to a breakaway dunk

[HighFlyer23]

Jordan has always been an asshole

Pippen has always been a bitch

Their true nature is on display

Jordans asshole behavior and Pippen being a little bitch

That's the end of it ... No more needs to be said

[Full Court]

Jordan has always been an asshole

Pippen has always been a bitch

Their true nature is on display

Jordans asshole behavior and Pippen being a little bitch

That's the end of it ... No more needs to be said

Pretty much this.

[Airupthere]

Lol. Look at how Jordan is treating Isiah Thomas. He ended his friendship with Charles Barkley because Barkely said he had to many yes men around him. He called Isiah Thomas and "A" hole. Over something that happened in 1985? Jordan ain't never took the high road when it comes to handling people that he feels wronged him.

Yeah, and how did Chuck handle it? Chuck is like the coolest to handle it. Not saying MJ is right. He is an asshole. But the drama Pippen created is just a complete overreaction, considering that supposedly he had the most important legacy to keep with that Bulls team. Isiah has been standing his ground as well. He talks more than Chuck but still not every remotely close to how Pippen reacted.

[Overdrive]

The reason why you don't blame him is, because you're a Pippen-homer.

Why does he keep raving about one line in a 10 piece documentary that actually praised him? Pippen is a whiny pos. So is Isiah and Jordan is a psycho. Nobody came out of this as some sort of good guy.

[97 bulls]

The reason why you don't blame him is, because you're a Pippen-homer.

Why does he keep raving about one line in a 10 piece documentary that actually praised him? Pippen is a whiny pos. So is Isiah and Jordan is a psycho. Nobody came out of this as some sort of good guy.

For the same reason Jordan won't let that Pistons situation in 91, NINETEEN-NINTY FRIGGING ONE!!!!! Over 30 years ago, go. He's asked about his views. Should he lie? And all Thomas did was not shake his hand.

Now, let me ask you a couple questions.

Was Scottie Pippen stabbed in the back by Jordan and the management?

Why hasn't anyone ever stated that Jordan needs to get over his feeling towards the Pistons?

[97 bulls]

Yeah, and how did Chuck handle it? Chuck is like the coolest to handle it. Not saying MJ is right. He is an asshole. But the drama Pippen created is just a complete overreaction, considering that supposedly he had the most important legacy to keep with that Bulls team. Isiah has been standing his ground as well. He talks more than Chuck but still not every remotely close to how Pippen reacted.

Hold up, how did Pippen create the drama when it's Jordan that decided to air out all his teammates dirty laundry and insult Pippen? In my honest opinion, I think Jordan was salty when Pippen started saying that Lebron James may be the GOAT.

[97 bulls]

Lost respect for Scottie in how he’s handled everything. Haven’t watched any of his highlights since and no longer planning to.

Did you lose any respect for Jordan?

[Micku]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cs87PdPu4bv/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

This video recaps Pippen's role in a tight game 1 win vs. the Jazz in the 97 Finals. Pippen is playing this championship series on a foot that needed surgery. A bunch of so-called Bulls fans and Jordanaires have gone out of their way to call Pippen "soft" and a "bum." Jordan called him selfish for opting to have surgery during the season. Pippen gave his heart and soul this series as he did the previous 4 championships. Only to find out that Krause was trying to trade him. Absolutely no loyalty. Then, his so-called friend Jordan, knowing all that had happened, calls him selfish in that Jordanmentary called the last dance.

Pippen was disrespected by the Bulls organization, the fans, and most of all Michael Jordan. I'd say eff them too.

This is what happened with Kobe and Shaq too. Shaq said that he got hurt on company time, and he'll heal on company time. He didn't start to rehab until during the season. This pissed Kobe off. But nobody can deny Shaq's talent and wanting to win when the playoffs started. It's just he didn't have the drive that Kobe had.

As far as Pippen is concerned, he feels disrespected. Some of the stuff is self-inflicted. His whole contract was his fault. Him not wanting to be in the game when Phil drew up the play for Kukoc is his fault. And him calling Phil a racist for it, lol. Not saying Phil isn't or is a racist, but you gotta give proof than Phil not wanting to give you the last shot. And how can you be all about team play when you get upset over that? And the whole thing about him feeling disrespected by MJ seems like he wants more credit. Some analysts say he wants more credit than he deserved.

There are some legit points to him explaining that the Bulls were more than just the MJ one man show. They were a great team. Down from the coaching to the players. MJ was the main dude of course, but you couldn't discount the other guys. I feel the doc was solid at it showing it, but it didn't show everything of course. But it did show MJ being an asshole. Any hardcore hooper would've known that. Pippen felt like they won despite MJ being an asshole. In his book, he showed some times where they succeeded without MJ. And that's great. But it doesn't change the fact that they were almost always better with MJ. Once the team got better, that impact was less and it wasn't MJ carrying them anymore. At least not as much. It was the team itself was well coached, knew their roles, they were the best in their time at executing on both ends of the floor.

I don't think Pippen is handling this the right way if he wants ppl to come to his side. He comes across as whiny and jealous. Some would it's more personal because of what is happening outside of the court and he isn't in the right space. Hardly any of the media talking heads are going to his side publicly and saying he is crazy. But, if he wants attention and money, I guess that is one way. He is doing so by burning some bridges.

One thing it definitely shows, is that team was going through a lot of inner problems. Lots of egos. And they still manage to get things done.

[8Ball]

So what should he have done? Just get bashed by his so-called teammate and friend? And then, fllw that up with all these Jordan fans is fans bash him in the media?

Jordan created a documentary about himself and went ahead and shat on Pippen in a year Jordan didn't even play in 1994.


That's a knife in the back to an old friend.


Kyrie "slighted" Bron in 2017 when he bounced from Cleveland and the two of them practically love each other to death. It's weird.

[TheMan]

Hold up, how did Pippen create the drama when it's Jordan that decided to air out all his teammates dirty laundry and insult Pippen? In my honest opinion, I think Jordan was salty when Pippen started saying that Lebron James may be the GOAT.

Pippen has been all over the place with his take on LeBron vs MJ, from saying that LeBron was the GOAT all around player to saying that there isn't a game he would choose LeBron over MJ if he absolutely had to win one game. It's hard to take someone seriously when you're all over the place on a pretty simple question (it's totally subjective and at the end of the day, it's your opinion)...Ray Ray on the other hand who played against past his prime MJ and with and against LeBron has been consistent on his view that MJ is the GOAT.

[3ba11]

Did you lose any respect for Jordan?


Jordan did nothing wrong - he was hard on teammates because they were single-digit rookies that needed a ton of development and not the franchise players or HOF's that every other great player was gifted.

And Jordan hates Isiah because he was the ringleader of the physical attacks on Jordan - show me where Bill Russell or Hakeem said their objective was to hurt Wilt or Shaq everytime they caught the ball in the paint - here's Salley and Rodman saying the objective was to hurt Jordan (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zWJHnzvF_r4)..

And Pippen wasn't a franchise player like Barkley or Embiid - he was a supplementary player like Klay.. Can you imagine Klay saying that Curry was horrible and Klay that was the driving force behind the titles?.. It's looney tunes stuff.. Pippen is literally a nutjob and it's amazing that MJ led a meltdown machine and supplementary player to 6 titles..

Pippen had a one-off season after inheriting a 3-peat dynasty but he could never grow a team from scratch like Embiid, Giannis, Jordan, or Lebron (franchise players).. History shows that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention quickly due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty like we saw in 95'.

[Overdrive]

For the same reason Jordan won't let that Pistons situation in 91, NINETEEN-NINTY FRIGGING ONE!!!!! Over 30 years ago, go. He's asked about his views. Should he lie? And all Thomas did was not shake his hand.

Now, let me ask you a couple questions.

Was Scottie Pippen stabbed in the back by Jordan and the management?

Why hasn't anyone ever stated that Jordan needs to get over his feeling towards the Pistons?

What about calling Jordan a psycho suggests that I think the grudges he holds aren't pitiful?

[Lebron23]

Jordan is a dickhead. But Pippen needs to be the bigger man. Jordan acknowledged his contributions in the last dance.

[Round Mound]

Jordan and the ones making the film diminished Pippen by mentioning how ontough he was and also the migrane game. The film was dedicated to the 97 Bulls not Jordan but the whole team. What they mentioned every fan or anyone interested in basketball already knew. Jordan showed lack of goodness and disrespected Pippen with his iluminati crew. End of story

[97 bulls]

This is what happened with Kobe and Shaq too. Shaq said that he got hurt on company time, and he'll heal on company time. He didn't start to rehab until during the season. This pissed Kobe off. But nobody can deny Shaq's talent and wanting to win when the playoffs started. It's just he didn't have the drive that Kobe had.

I dont think its similar. According to Pippen, he felt disrespected and thus wasn't gonna go above and beyond for an organization that wasn't going above and beyond for him. How this doesn't make sense is beyond me. I said before, Pippen had no more obligation to have the surgery and rehab in the offseason than the Bulls had the obligation to redo his contract. But people somehow see Pippen as the bad guy. Including Jordan. Jordan could have stated something along the lines that he wished Pippen had the surgery and rehabbed in the offseason, but under the circumstances, you know, playing on that injured foot, the team not wanting to renegotiate his contract, the trade talk for a player that had been loyal, he understood. Jordan sided with management.



As far as Pippen is concerned, he feels disrespected. Some of the stuff is self-inflicted. His whole contract was his fault. Him not wanting to be in the game when Phil drew up the play for Kukoc is his fault. And him calling Phil a racist for it, lol. Not saying Phil isn't or is a racist, but you gotta give proof than Phil not wanting to give you the last shot. And how can you be all about team play when you get upset over that? And the whole thing about him feeling disrespected by MJ seems like he wants more credit. Some analysts say he wants more credit than he deserved. See, I just can't vibe with this double standard. Why is Pippen obligated to take the high road in every situation? The Bulls weren't obligated to redo his contract and he wasn't obligated to have surgery on his free time. But Pippen is the only one wrong? Many players have called Jackson a racist. Robert Horry, Kwame Brown to name a few. I agree Pippen's decision to not go back in the game was the wrong l, but I see why he did it. I would have been hurt if the coach I've been in the trenches with, and know what I've been able to do and what I've contributed to 3 championships, draws up the final play for the rookie. But again, Jordan sided with management here. He once again felt that Pippen should've stayed quiet. And you question him being a team player? How is this for a team player? Toni Kukoc comes in as Pippens replacement, Jerry Krauses boy. Hes signed for more money than Pippen was making even though Pippens proven his worth. Pippen has the option to treat him a certain way. But instead, Pippen TAKES KUKOC UNDER HIS WING. He never was mean to Kukoc.


There are some legit points to him explaining that the Bulls were more than just the MJ one man show. They were a great team. Down from the coaching to the players. MJ was the main dude of course, but you couldn't discount the other guys. I feel the doc was solid at it showing it, but it didn't show everything of course. But it did show MJ being an asshole. Any hardcore hooper would've known that. Pippen felt like they won despite MJ being an asshole. In his book, he showed some times where they succeeded without MJ. And that's great. But it doesn't change the fact that they were almost always better with MJ. Once the team got better, that impact was less and it wasn't MJ carrying them anymore. At least not as much. It was the team itself was well coached, knew their roles, they were the best in their time at executing on both ends of the floor.
What Jordan did in that documentary was explain away his being an asshole to his teammates. All under the guise that he wanted to win sooooo bad. The key moments he allowed in there were all a way to bring tribute to him. He intentionally left out anything the Bulls did that didn't bring glory to his name. Jordan even explained Pippen's taking over the team in 94 and 95 as more of Pippen having to see how hard he (Jordan) had it. SMH. More time was given to that 1.8 seconds situation than anything else.


dont think Pippen is handling this the right wayif he wants ppl to come to his side. He comes across as whiny and jealous. Some would it's more personal because of what is happening outside of the court and he isn't in the right space. Hardly any of the media talking heads are going to his side publicly and saying he is crazy. But, if he wants attention and money, I guess that is one way. He is doing so by burning some bridges.
I keep hearing this. So how should he have handled it? Just take it on the chin? Nobody came to Pippens defense even months after the Last Dance outside of his teammates.

[97 bulls]

What about calling Jordan a psycho suggests that I think the grudges he holds aren't pitiful?

I asked you two specific questions bro. You answered neither.

[3ba11]

Many misperceptions itt, so let's look at the actual facts, video and data

[3ba11]

diminished Pippen by mentioning how untough he was and also the migrane game.





In order to tell an accurate historical account, The Last Dance needed to tell the story of Pippen being a choker and arguably the biggest choker in NBA history (the most legendary chokes and meltdowns).


The beginner foul choke ("never foul a jumpshooter"):


https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif



THE GOAT MELTDOWN:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-04-2022/B-6qB7.gif



WORST-EVER CLUTCH


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif



^^^^ Pippen was historically embarrassed without MJ.

Let's not forget that Pippen's "migraine" in 1990 prevented one of the biggest upsets in history and Jordan's 1st title.. Pippen also has many bricks and turnovers with the game on the line like his 2 missed FT's before Miller's legendary winner in 98' ECF or the 99' 1st Round blunder with Houston and many more.

And no... He wasn't tough because x-man BULLIED pippen in the 92' 2nd Round, which nearly caused an upset loss and required MJ to step in during Game 7 to confront X-Man and prevent another "migraine".. Pippen was choking in Game 7 all over again but MJ stopped it - being the enforcer for Pippen was part of MJ's organic learning curve.


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif


#carried

[97 bulls]

Jordan is a dickhead. But Pippen needs to be the bigger man. Jordan acknowledged his contributions in the last dance.

I disagree. There were far more moments I think Jordan intentionally left out

The Bulls coming back in the 4th quarter vs Portland. Because Jordan was on the bench.

Rodmans record breaking rebounding in the 96 Finals vs the Sonics. Because it didn't bring glory to MJ

Pippens game saving blocks on Smith. Because too much credit would've gone to Pippen

The Bulls 15 point comeback vs the Jazz in 97. Because once again, Jordan was on the bench.

Pippens game saving steal to seal the 97 Championship. Because Jordan had nothing to do with it.

[3ba11]

I disagree. There were far more moments I think Jordan intentionally left out

The Bulls coming back in the 4th quarter vs Portland. Because Jordan was on the bench.

Rodmans record breaking rebounding in the 96 Finals vs the Sonics. Because it didn't bring glory to MJ

Pippens game saving blocks on Smith. Because too much credit would've gone to Pippen

The Bulls 15 point comeback vs the Jazz in 97. Because once again, Jordan was on the bench.

Pippens game saving steal to seal the 97 Championship. Because Jordan had nothing to do with it.


In the 92' Finals, Jordan re-entered the game with 7 minutes left and the Bulls still down - he proceeded to hit nearly every shot down the stretch to win the game - so he couldn't cover this in the doc without adding more episodes.

And no one ever covered the other crap you mentioned because some of it didn't happen like the blocks on Smith where Jordan and Grant were involved and Jordan had 3 game-winning plays in 97' Finals while Pippen had a horrific series that included 4 points when games were tight down the stretch (clutch-time)

Of course, Rodman averaged 3/8 in the 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter for the 98 Playoffs, so everyone knew that Rodman was a fossil and everyone also knew that Jordan only needed role play from the PF after 3-peating with 12/8 from Horace

[Micku]

I dont think its similar. According to Pippen, he felt disrespected and thus wasn't gonna go above and beyond for an organization that wasn't going above and beyond for him. How this doesn't make sense is beyond me. I said before, Pippen had no more obligation to have the surgery and rehab in the offseason than the Bulls had the obligation to redo his contract. But people somehow see Pippen as the bad guy. Including Jordan. Jordan could have stated something along the lines that he wished Pippen had the surgery and rehabbed in the offseason, but under the circumstances, you know, playing on that injured foot, the team not wanting to renegotiate his contract, the trade talk for a player that had been loyal, he understood. Jordan sided with management.


I don't know why it doesn't make sense. From MJ perspective, you got a job to do. You want to give it your all and be ready as much as you can. Even with issues with management. Kobe would've had that problem since Shaq choose to rehab during company time. Lots of ppl dislike that. It doesn't make Pippen the bad guy or anything, but ppl won't take his side. MJ wanted Pippen on the team.


See, I just can't vibe with this double standard. Why is Pippen obligated to take the high road in every situation? The Bulls weren't obligated to redo his contract and he wasn't obligated to have surgery on his free time. But Pippen is the only one wrong? Many players have called Jackson a racist. Robert Horry, Kwame Brown to name a few. I agree Pippen's decision to not go back in the game was the wrong l, but I see why he did it. I would have been hurt if the coach I've been in the trenches with, and know what I've been able to do and what I've contributed to 3 championships, draws up the final play for the rookie. But again, Jordan sided with management here. He once again felt that Pippen should've stayed quiet. And you question him being a team player? How is this for a team player? Toni Kukoc comes in as Pippens replacement, Jerry Krauses boy. Hes signed for more money than Pippen was making even though Pippens proven his worth. Pippen has the option to treat him a certain way. But instead, Pippen TAKES KUKOC UNDER HIS WING. He never was mean to Kukoc.

I don't know about Kwame Brown. But unless he said otherwise, Horry specifically said Phil isn't a racist. But he had to check him.


"I’ve played for Phil. I don’t think Phil is racist," Horry said. "He’s said some stuff before that kind of, I had to check him on it. For me, I don’t think he’s racist."

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/robert-horry-phil-jackson-scottie-pippen/1ajcjvua8o63a1qs3kyfiof6ga

And Horry had a story that hints that Phil could've been a racist. Pippen was mad that he didn't take the last shot, and that made Phil a racist in his eyes. It was a dumb reason and that's not going to get the masses to his call. And yeah, he contributed to 3 championships. But was the guy to make that shot? And he had moments where he could make the clutch shots down the stretch. It's wild to call yourself a team player and get pissed that you don't take the final shot because you feel like you earned instead of focusing on the win instead. Like it's okay to say that you wanted it. And at that moment, you want to seek that you can prove it without MJ. Magic said something similar without Kareem, and Kobe without Shaq. But Pippen was complaining about it while at the same time calling himself he is all about the team. There is hypocrisy right there. He has reflected and said he was wrong in that regard, and then switch back and say he wanted it and called Phil a racist. And, he still wanted to work with Phil even after that in 2005, when he wanted to join Phil staff as a special assistant for the Lakers.



What Jordan did in that documentary was explain away his being an asshole to his teammates. All under the guise that he wanted to win sooooo bad. The key moments he allowed in there were all a way to bring tribute to him. He intentionally left out anything the Bulls did that didn't bring glory to his name. Jordan even explained Pippen's taking over the team in 94 and 95 as more of Pippen having to see how hard he (Jordan) had it. SMH. More time was given to that 1.8 seconds situation than anything else.


I keep hearing this. So how should he have handled it? Just take it on the chin? Nobody came to Pippens defense even months after the Last Dance outside of his teammates.

I don't know how many assholes they are when they are at the top. But we do focus on MJ. But Shaq was a dude who fought in a fistfight with a teenager (probably) in Kobe. Hakeem would slap people across the face, especially before he became muslim. Kobe made people cry. And they all said they did it to bring the best out of their teammates. I'm not saying this is the right way to do it, but it is one of many ways. We know MJ because its the most well-known. We probably don't know everything that Kobe and Shaq went through, what Jimmy Butler went through, Hakeem, and etc. We do know that Tim Duncan and the Spurs were pretty chill except for the Tony Parker wife thing.

And I don't know whether it didn't leave MJ in a bad light. He did gamble, he was obsessive and he was an ass. He showed his bad traits. And yeah, it talked about Pippen in 94 and 95. But it talked about MJ before Pippen got there. It talked about Rodman before he got to the Bulls too. It showed Rodman in all of his controversial stuff. It showed MJ in his controversial stuff. Yet Pippen is the one who complains about it? And besides, it did not show anything that any hardcore b-ball fan didn't already know. It was already out there.

And Pippen could've done it in a much better light in saying his perspective. I'm sure you and everyone else would see the talking heads in the media and the fans dismiss Pippen as being whiny, mad over minor reasons, and his lashing out isn't getting ppl to his side. MJ always gave Pippen his props. He could've straight up said, "I know the The Last Dance told you this. But there are other details that are missing. This is what made the team great and you can see things from my perspective." Be professional about it. But they may have as much attention or made as much money as what he is doing now.

Regardless, what he is doing isn't gathering ppl to his side. Some ppl are listening to what he has to say and laugh about it because of the context. That is something he would have to improve on. It isn't going to happen tho. And this version is more entertaining for sure, but I don't expect the talking heads would agree with Pippen side.

[Micku]

I disagree. There were far more moments I think Jordan intentionally left out

The Bulls coming back in the 4th quarter vs Portland. Because Jordan was on the bench.

Rodmans record breaking rebounding in the 96 Finals vs the Sonics. Because it didn't bring glory to MJ

Pippens game saving blocks on Smith. Because too much credit would've gone to Pippen

The Bulls 15 point comeback vs the Jazz in 97. Because once again, Jordan was on the bench.

Pippens game saving steal to seal the 97 Championship. Because Jordan had nothing to do with it.

They didn't talk about Cliff Levingston help defense either in 91, which was amazing.

They didn't talk about Rodman defense on Shaq.

They didn't talk about Luc Longley.

But they also didn't think about MJ scoring like 15-20 pts in the clutch in 1989 against the Cavs. They talk about the game winner, but not the details of it. Hell, no one really mention how impressive that 89 run was in detail.

They didn't talk about how good of a job MJ did on defending Cylde Drexler.

I don't remember if they talked about the good defense Pippen did on Mark Jackson? I legit forgot.

We talk about how good MJ was, they don't talk about the details in the actual game plan. I think the Knicks straight up tried not to toss the ball or run their actions where ever MJ side was. They talk about how the shot creation overall nor the low turnovers. Dude created like 15 open shots in one game for his teammates while scoring 39 pts 1992 Finals and that was more than the entire 2014 playoffs.

The documentary did show how good of a player MJ was but not in detail. Not in detail at all. Dude doing things that were insane and this was before all of the advanced stats started.
The Bulls were insane too tho, more than just MJ. They were a great team. The best in their respective era. From the coaching staff to most of the teammates that they have, they were really great. And they weren't the most talented team either.

But the documentary itself wasn't Kobe's "detailed" series for hardcore b-ball fans.

It really could've talked about how good the Bulls were from a basketball standpoint and really show why MJ was the best player. It wasn't that type of documentary and you'll never get that from a mainstream format. It didn't even describe the triangle in detail if I can recall.

[97 bulls]

I don't know why it doesn't make sense. From MJ perspective, you got a job to do. You want to give it your all and be ready as much as you can. Even with issues with management. Kobe would've had that problem since Shaq choose to rehab during company time. Lots of ppl dislike that. It doesn't make Pippen the bad guy or anything, but ppl won't take his side. MJ wanted Pippen on the team.
It doesn't make sense because the whole argument centers around obligation. You said yourself that it was Pippens fault he signed that contract right? So the Bulls had no obligation to redo it. Neither did Pippen when it comes to the rehabilitation of his foot. Again, the Shaq situation wasn't the same because at that time, Shaq wasn't being disrespected by the Lakers. So to sum it up, neither Scottie Pippen nor the Chicago Bulls had any legal obligation to do what's best for the team. Why is the blame only going one way? Jordan blamed Pippen. What's more, is he abandoned the team in 94. So he's in no position to talk. I don't want to hear the logic that his father died because you're not giving Pippen any concessions here. Pippen has the right to do what's in the best interest of his family just like Jordan.


I don't know about Kwame Brown. But unless he said otherwise, Horry specifically said Phil isn't a racist. But he had to check him.


https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/robert-horry-phil-jackson-scottie-pippen/1ajcjvua8o63a1qs3kyfiof6ga

And Horry had a story that hints that Phil could've been a racist. Pippen was mad that he didn't take the last shot, and that made Phil a racist in his eyes. It was a dumb reason and that's not going to get the masses to his call. And yeah, he contributed to 3 championships. But was the guy to make that shot? And he had moments where he could make the clutch shots down the stretch. It's wild to call yourself a team player and get pissed that you don't take the final shot because you feel like you earned instead of focusing on the win instead. Like it's okay to say that you wanted it. And at that moment, you want to seek that you can prove it without MJ. Magic said something similar without Kareem, and Kobe without Shaq. But Pippen was complaining about it while at the same time calling himself he is all about the team. There is hypocrisy right there. He has reflected and said he was wrong in that regard, and then switch back and say he wanted it and called Phil a racist. And, he still wanted to work with Phil even after that in 2005, when he wanted to join Phil staff as a special assistant for the Lakers.
Again, I responded to this argument. That decison doesn't not make him a team player. He felt he was the best guy for the job. The only reason this is even an argument is because Kukoc made the shot. I do believe he should've went back in and handled the situation internally. Not going in wasn't the right decision. But he showed he was a team player by setting his personal issue with the way Kukoc was being propped over him and welcomed Kukoc in with open arms. Kukoc said Pippen was his favorite teammate.



I don't know how many assholes they are when they are at the top. But we do focus on MJ. But Shaq was a dude who fought in a fistfight with a teenager (probably) in Kobe. Hakeem would slap people across the face, especially before he became muslim. Kobe made people cry. And they all said they did it to bring the best out of their teammates. I'm not saying this is the right way to do it, but it is one of many ways. We know MJ because its the most well-known. We probably don't know everything that Kobe and Shaq went through, what Jimmy Butler went through, Hakeem, and etc. We do know that Tim Duncan and the Spurs were pretty chill except for the Tony Parker wife thing.
Bro. MJ being called an asshole by many is viewed as a compliment. They say it to say Jordan being that way is why they won. That's just excusing bad behavior. I hold the people that put up with that kind of behavior in high regard. There's no way I could be on the same team with a guy like that.


And I don't know whether it didn't leave MJ in a bad light. He did gamble, he was obsessive and he was an ass. He showed his bad traits. And yeah, it talked about Pippen in 94 and 95. But it talked about MJ before Pippen got there. It talked about Rodman before he got to the Bulls too. It showed Rodman in all of his controversial stuff. It showed MJ in his controversial stuff. Yet Pippen is the one who complains about it? And besides, it did not show anything that any hardcore b-ball fan didn't already know. It was already out there.
Pippen wasnt the only one that complained about it. Horace Grant, Craig Hodges, Ron Harper, Stacey King, also felt like Jordan was wrong for what he said in the Last Dance. And as i said in my other post to you Jordan expalined away his stuff. Or denied it. When he went to Atlanta during that series, he said he needed a break. That the media and leading the team was a heavy lead he had to bare. Rodman thrives off the negative. So im not surprised he didnt say anything. And Jordan didn't lobby any personal insults to Rodman. He insulted Pippen, Grant, and Thomas. PUBLICLY. And they publicly responded. We keep hearing about Pippen because Pippen is constantly asked about it. I bet before any interview that Jordan does, he makes the interviewer sign an NDA to not talk about what Pippen said.



And Pippen could've done it in a much better light in saying his perspective. I'm sure you and everyone else would see the talking heads in the media and the fans dismiss Pippen as being whiny, mad over minor reasons, and his lashing out isn't getting ppl to his side. MJ always gave Pippen his props. He could've straight up said, "I know the The Last Dance told you this. But there are other details that are missing. This is what made the team great and you can see things from my perspective." Be professional about it. But they may have as much attention or made as much money as what he is doing now.
How is Pippen whiney? He's being asked these questions. Hes not making random tweets and IG posts blasting MJ and the Bulls.

Regardless, what he is doing isn't gathering ppl to his side. Some ppl are listening to what he has to say and laugh about it because of the context. That is something he would have to improve on. It isn't going to happen tho. And this version is more entertaining for sure, but I don't expect the talking heads would agree with Pippen side.
True. Let me tell you what's gonna happen. All these biases and agendas will be exposed when a similar situation arises and they take the other side. Mark my words.

[kawhileonard2]

Damn Pippen out of the league in 3 years and therefore Jordan with no titles.

Different landscape for the NBA.

He made Pippen. He would have made anyone a better version of Pippen. Probably won 12 titles with someone else. Pippen had 2 points in a game 7 and went 1-10.

[Micku]

It doesn't make sense because the whole argument centers around obligation. You said yourself that it was Pippens fault he signed that contract right? So the Bulls had no obligation to redo it. Neither did Pippen when it comes to the rehabilitation of his foot. Again, the Shaq situation wasn't the same because at that time, Shaq wasn't being disrespected by the Lakers. So to sum it up, neither Scottie Pippen nor the Chicago Bulls had any legal obligation to do what's best for the team. Why is the blame only going one way? Jordan blamed Pippen. What's more, is he abandoned the team in 94.

I don't think it was an obligation per say from a legal standpoint. Afterall, he did it anyway. That was never the point. The point is, it rubbed some ppl the wrong way. And MJ didn't like it and expressed his opinions. As you said, Shaq wasn't being disrespected by the Lakers, so the reasoning why was different. But Kobe hated that and wanted him to put in the work like he did. MJ wanted Pippen there and expressed his thoughts on it. There is no bad/good guy here. Just MJ didn't like it. And Pippen didn't like that MJ didn't like it. That's that.

And I don't know what you are talking about abandoning the team. He "retired". Played another sport. Then he came back. It'll be one thing if he wanted a trade or something. He didn't do a James Harden and just quit on the team to get them to trade him.



Again, I responded to this argument. That decison doesn't not make him a team player. He felt he was the best guy for the job. The only reason this is even an argument is because Kukoc made the shot. I do believe he should've went back in and handled the situation internally. Not going in wasn't the right decision. But he showed he was a team player by setting his personal issue with the way Kukoc was being propped over him and welcomed Kukoc in with open arms.
I think it was more that he felt like he deserved to get the shot off than he felt like he was the best guy to do it. He probably thought he was in his head, but he felt disrespected. And he lashed out calling Phil a racist because of it, which was stupid. He even said himself that he felt like he deserved it because he did all the dirty work. That is being selfish.

And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But him preaching about team ball is hypocritical because he wanted a selfish thing at that very moment. And he didn't let it go against Phil. He didn't reflect on the idea that he was being selfish at that moment. You could be a great team player and be selfish at those moments too. Many players comment on how great of a teammate Pippen is, including MJ lol! But that was a low moment for him and him talking about it and calling Phil a racist is even lower.

This is him rationalizing calling Phil a racist in his book:


“I was so hurt when he picked Toni over me that I needed to come up with an explanation for why I was rejected,” he writes. “So I told myself at the time that Phil’s decision must have been racially motivated. Only when I saw my words in print did it dawn on me how wrong I was — after thirty years!”


It was dumb and stupid because he wanted to Phil to support him to take the last shot. He even realize how wrong he was, then he still go on interviews to say that he is racist (probably to promote the book).



Bro. MJ being called an asshole by many is viewed as a compliment. They say it to say Jordan being that way is why they won. That's just excusing bad behavior. I hold the people that put up with that kind of behavior in high regard. There's no way I could be on the same team with a guy like that.


It's similar to Jimmy Butler and to Kobe. Some of the press called Butler a team cancer, even though he contributed to wins. But now look where he is now compared to the teams that let him go. And I don't know if that's the behavior that is the reason why they won. I don't think so, because there are many ways to win. But some people can't play like that. Some people can. While you don't want to play with a guy like that, Jimmy Butler probably would. Hell Hakeem was similar. Shaq was similar. Kobe was similar. Cuz they can be psychos. Shaq and Kobe were so bad that Rodman couldn't take being on the team.

But it seemed like MJ was an ass outside of the court too. That's a different story.



Pippen wasnt the only one that complained about it. Horace Grant, Craig Hodges, Ron Harper, Stacey King, also felt like Jordan was wrong for what he said in the Last Dance. And as i said in my other post to you Jordan expalined away his stuff. Or denied it. When he went to Atlanta during that series, he said he needed a break. That the media and leading the team was a heavy lead he had to bare. Rodman thrives off the negative. So im not surprised he didnt say anything. And Jordan didn't lobby any personal insults to Rodman. He insulted Pippen, Grant, and Thomas. PUBLICLY. And they publicly responded. We keep hearing about Pippen because Pippen is constantly asked about it. I bet before any interview that Jordan does, he makes the interviewer sign an NDA to not talk about what Pippen said.


I think Ron Harper said recently that Pippen shouldn't have a mic in front of him anymore. And the complaints were different than how Pippen complained.

Grant did complain about it. But he complained that it was like MJ bullied him. And Grant said he would fight back against MJ bully tactics. And he said that he wasn't the one who snitched. And hardcore b-ball fans been knew about this drama.

Ron Harper didn't really complain tho. He even complimented MJ style. He said this:



"MJ knew who he can talk to and knew who he had to push. He was one of those guys who made you work harder because you see how he works," Harper said. "You ain't gonna talk crazy to me and don't think I'm going to talk crazy to you. He would talk to Scott Burrell and Scott wasn't man enough to stand up for who he was. You ain't doing that s--- with me."

"I felt that it could've been more about what the team did and what the players done. But you know I understand they gave the copyrights to MJ. So it was more like 'Come Fly With Me, Part 2.' But it was good," he added.

https://www.insider.com/michael-jordan-ex-bulls-teammates-unhappy-with-the-last-dance-2020-5

Ron Harper wasn't the man the bullied. Robert Parish said the same thing. He said some ppl on the team were scared of MJ, but Parish said he is a champion already and had to check MJ on his bully tactics. Here is a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EErVPyH2Ro


I don't know what Chris Hodges said. But no one complained how Pippen is complaining.

Bill Cartwright complained too. But he did it in a professional manner. He said straight up, "MJ was great. The best player in the league. Not the best leader off the court. We won, not because of just MJ. We won because of a great coaching staff, great defensive schemes, the best starting five in the league and players who were great and competitive." Which was true. The Bulls when they started winning, became great without MJ. And 94, if MJ played, they would've been even better.

And Pippen comes across as whiny because he is always complaining about MJ getting all the spotlight and wanted the media and others to give him more credit. Wrote a book about of why. Complaining how MJ would never be a superstar without him when they were already giving MJ shoe deals before he came into the league. They were calling MJ the best ever by 1989, but he didn't have any rings. It was amazing how MJ captivated the media and the league.

Anyway, Bill Cartwright didn't whine. He flat out said what he thought and that's that. Pippen goes off.

[97 bulls]

I don't think it was an obligation per say from a legal standpoint. Afterall, he did it anyway. That was never the point. The point is, it rubbed some ppl the wrong way. And MJ didn't like it and expressed his opinions. As you said, Shaq wasn't being disrespected by the Lakers, so the reasoning why was different. But Kobe hated that and wanted him to put in the work like he did. MJ wanted Pippen there and expressed his thoughts on it. There is no bad/good guy here. Just MJ didn't like it. And Pippen didn't like that MJ didn't like it. That's that.
Right. So why isnt Jordan considered a whiner? The double standard is real. Buf thats not all. Again, your argument is that the Bulls didnt have to give Pippen a raise hecause he was under a contract he signed. I agree. So Pippen is obligated to fulfill the stipulations in his contract and thats what he did.


And I don't know what you are talking about abandoning the team. He "retired". Played another sport. Then he came back. It'll be one thing if he wanted a trade or something. He didn't do a James Harden and just quit on the team to get them to trade him.

Perhaps you need to look up the word "abandoned". Most players retire because theyre too old to play or are injured. Jordan, the man that says there nothing more important than winning, abruptly retires and thus destroys any opportunity for the Bulls to win 4 straight Championships. And not only did he retire, but he does it 3 weeks before the start of the season. So the Bulls couldn't find a suitable replacement. Once again, I get it. I cant seem to understand why Jordan gets a pass and Pippen doesnt. I dont care that he retired. He left his team hanging.


I think it was more that he felt like he deserved to get the shot off than he felt like he was the best guy to do it. He probably thought he was in his head, but he felt disrespected. And he lashed out calling Phil a racist because of it, which was stupid. He even said himself that he felt like he deserved it because he did all the dirty work. That is being selfish. Thats not all he said. He said it was his turn yes. Hes said he was the one with the experience, Jackson gave the last shot to Kukoc a rookie. I dont think hed be as upset had the shot been drawn up for Armstrong. But Pippen also said he wanted to at least be on the court. He said he was the Bulls most dangerous player. I don't think it being selfish. The way he handled it wasnt right.


And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But him preaching about team ball is hypocritical because he wanted a selfish thing at that very moment. And he didn't let it go against Phil. He didn't reflect on the idea that he was being selfish at that moment. You could be a great team player and be selfish at those moments too. Many players comment on how great of a teammate Pippen is, including MJ lol! But that was a low moment for him and him talking about it and calling Phil a racist is even lower.

This is him rationalizing calling Phil a racist in his book:


It was dumb and stupid because he wanted to Phil to support him to take the last shot. He even realize how wrong he was, then he still go on interviews to say that he is racist (probably to promote the book).



It's similar to Jimmy Butler and to Kobe. Some of the press called Butler a team cancer, even though he contributed to wins. But now look where he is now compared to the teams that let him go. And I don't know if that's the behavior that is the reason why they won. I don't think so, because there are many ways to win. But some people can't play like that. Some people can. While you don't want to play with a guy like that, Jimmy Butler probably would. Hell Hakeem was similar. Shaq was similar. Kobe was similar. Cuz they can be psychos. Shaq and Kobe were so bad that Rodman couldn't take being on the team.
The fact that you keep referring to these players as "psychos" and "assholes" seems weird. When youre a psycho and people can still be successful with you being a psycho, theyre doing it in spite of you not beacause of you. The onle reason that behavior goes over is because the teams are winning.




I think Ron Harper said recently that Pippen shouldn't have a mic in front of him anymore. And the complaints were different than how Pippen complained.

Grant did complain about it. But he complained that it was like MJ bullied him. And Grant said he would fight back against MJ bully tactics. And he said that he wasn't the one who snitched. And hardcore b-ball fans been knew about this drama.

Ron Harper didn't really complain tho. He even complimented MJ style. He said this:


https://www.insider.com/michael-jordan-ex-bulls-teammates-unhappy-with-the-last-dance-2020-5

Ron Harper wasn't the man the bullied. Robert Parish said the same thing. He said some ppl on the team were scared of MJ, but Parish said he is a champion already and had to check MJ on his bully tactics. Here is a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EErVPyH2Ro


I don't know what Chris Hodges said. But no one complained how Pippen is complaining.

Bill Cartwright complained too. But he did it in a professional manner. He said straight up, "MJ was great. The best player in the league. Not the best leader off the court. We won, not because of just MJ. We won because of a great coaching staff, great defensive schemes, the best starting five in the league and players who were great and competitive." Which was true. The Bulls when they started winning, became great without MJ. And 94, if MJ played, they would've been even better.

And Pippen comes across as whiny because he is always complaining about MJ getting all the spotlight and wanted the media and others to give him more credit. Wrote a book about of why. Complaining how MJ would never be a superstar without him when they were already giving MJ shoe deals before he came into the league. They were calling MJ the best ever by 1989, but he didn't have any rings. It was amazing how MJ captivated the media and the league.

Anyway, Bill Cartwright didn't whine. He flat out said what he thought and that's that. Pippen goes off.

Lol. Bro. They publicly complained. Point blank. As I stated earlier. Pippen isn't intentionally going on tirades, he's being asked about it in interviews. Is he supposed to lie? Why isn't Jordan a whiner for still complaining about Isiah Thomas and the Pistons years later? The double standard is damn near maddening. Lol

[Micku]

Right. So why isnt Jordan considered a whiner? The double standard is real. Buf thats not all. Again, your argument is that the Bulls didnt have to give Pippen a raise hecause he was under a contract he signed. I agree. So Pippen is obligated to fulfill the stipulations in his contract and thats what he did.


If you want to consider MJ a whiner for not having Pippen then, you could do so. I'm not going to debate that. But ppl don't. The reason why they don't is because they just agree with MJ side of things and not Pippen here. But ppl said similar things about Shaq.



Perhaps you need to look up the word "abandoned". Most players retire because theyre too old to play or are injured. Jordan, the man that says there nothing more important than winning, abruptly retires and thus destroys any opportunity for the Bulls to win 4 straight Championships. And not only did he retire, but he does it 3 weeks before the start of the season. So the Bulls couldn't find a suitable replacement. Once again, I get it. I cant seem to understand why Jordan gets a pass and Pippen doesnt. I dont care that he retired. He left his team hanging.


I think you get why, but you don't agree with it. MJ gets a pass because his dad died and he wanted to play baseball for respect for his dad. He "retired" for emotional reasons. Pippen healed on company time because he felt disrespected by the organization and it rubbed some ppl the wrong way. That's pretty much it. You argue the points of how you feel it's unjust, but I don't think it's a winning battle at this time to change the ppl mass mindset. And that's not what ppl think about when it comes to Pippen anyway. But Pippen felt hurt that MJ would think so and said it publicly. It's not in the wrong nor in the right. It just is what it is.


Thats not all he said. He said it was his turn yes. Hes said he was the one with the experience, Jackson gave the last shot to Kukoc a rookie. I dont think hed be as upset had the shot been drawn up for Armstrong. But Pippen also said he wanted to at least be on the court. He said he was the Bulls most dangerous player. I don't think it being selfish. The way he handled it wasnt right.


He said he was their best player. He felt disrespected. He felt like he could've made the shot and deserved it. And the way he handled it wasn't right. He imagined that Phil was a racist to give a reason to reject him. Even when he knew he was in the wrong of thinking that, he still called him a racist in interviews. And everyone who wants the last shot has to have confidence within themselves. But his reasoning was selfish to me. It wasn't about "I would've been okay if it was another person" he complained about "Why wasn't it for me?" At that point, it wasn't about the team. It was about respect. And it was respected within himself. The fact he talks about himself in that regard is selfish imo. That there isn't anything wrong with being selfish, but I just don't like him talking about the team yet wanting that to himself. And calling Phil a racist just because of that call because his feelings were hurt. And he admitted this, and he admitted he was in the wrong. Yet in interviews, he doubles down.


The fact that you keep referring to these players as "psychos" and "assholes" seems weird. When youre a psycho and people can still be successful with you being a psycho, theyre doing it in spite of you not beacause of you. The onle reason that behavior goes over is because the teams are winning.



Some of the best players in the world were psychos or assholes though. I mean, you are b-ball fan. You should know how crazy-obsessed Kobe was, and how mean Hakeem and Shaq were. And MJ was the same thing. Hell, Kobe and Shaq would tell how crazy they were. How Magic was obsessed. But not all of them were assholes. And if they were assholes, they weren't assholes off the court. A lot of the stories are kept hidden from us, so we don't know everything. And it's unknown how that sort of leadership work out. Shaq tried to fight Kobe multiple times, but they were amazing together. Shaq tried similar bully tactics that MJ did. Kobe said that Shaq wouldn't respect ppl what he would bully. He would get in their face, destroy them in practice, and talk a bunch of shit, to the point where they were scared to even get on the bus. How much of that weed ppl out or contribute to winning? I don't know. But their play still impacted the game.

And it depends on your tolerance level and how much you are willing to take in terms of personality. Kenny Smith said there were fights every other practice and Hakeem would yell at them and slap/fight ppl. And they would still win and it motivated each other. Bill Russell was an ass to ppl he coached. Jimmy Butler was an ass while he was with the T'wolves yet they went to the playoffs the first year after missing it for first two years when KAT was there. And after Butler left, they missed it for 4 years.

CP3 is reportedly an asshole, yet he evaluated his team everywhere he goes. He is also described as crazy competitive and obsessed.

We don't know how many top players are assholes. And guys like Rodman who saw MJ, couldn't deal with the Shaq and Kobe environment. Guys like KG headbutt rookie Kendrick Perkins, called him trash and try to punk him. And yet he was also one of the most amazing floor raisers when it comes to defense, communication, and etc. But that was just rookie Perkins, don't know how he is with his teammates overall. But he would yell and talk a lot.

There is a bunch of nuances. You can be an ass, but on the floor, you could evaluate your teammates. We have seen that happen. But you don't have to be an ass. We have seen that too. With MJ, he was an ass. Pip wasn't.


Lol. Bro. They publicly complained. Point blank. As I stated earlier. Pippen isn't intentionally going on tirades, he's being asked about it in interviews. Is he supposed to lie? Why isn't Jordan a whiner for still complaining about Isiah Thomas and the Pistons years later? The double standard is damn near maddening. Lol

Are we ignoring the context? What they complained about? Like Ron Harper said it was good documentary and MJ inspired his teammates to work harder. He just wished it talk about the team better. Ron Harper doesn't agree with Pippen. At least not all the way.

Grant complained about being a snitch and the idea of being "bullied" than the team play.

Will Purdue got punched by MJ. That doesn't get talked about. He also thought MJ was a great teammate despite being an asshole. He didn't complain nearly as much as Pippen.

Pippen wrote a book complaining about everything The Last Dance did. And what he could've done is what Bill Cartwright and Ron Harper did. No one is calling them whiners. It's because of how they said it.

It's just like the thing you said with Horry. That Horry said Phil Jackson was a racist, but he said the exact opposite. There was the context within what he said. You said Ron Harper complained about the doc, but he also said it was good. He complimented MJ and inspired others to work hard. He wasn't the only one said that, but a lot of them acknowledge that the team was more than just one person.

Like I said, you could call MJ a whiner about the Pistons. But the reason why ppl called Pippen a whiner about this whole thing is that it seems like jealousy and wanting more credit than what ppl think he deserved. Whatever that's true, it's up to the individual to decide.

[97 bulls]

If you want to consider MJ a whiner for not having Pippen then, you could do so. I'm not going to debate that. But ppl don't. The reason why they don't is because they just agree with MJ side of things and not Pippen here. But ppl said similar things about Shaq.

I dont consider either as being a whiner. Thats not my argument. Im asking as to why theres a different set of rules for the two players.



I think you get why, but you don't agree with it. MJ gets a pass because his dad died and he wanted to play baseball for respect for his dad. He "retired" for emotional reasons. Pippen healed on company time because he felt disrespected by the organization and it rubbed some ppl the wrong way. That's pretty much it. You argue the points of how you feel it's unjust, but I don't think it's a winning battle at this time to change the ppl mass mindset. And that's not what ppl think about when it comes to Pippen anyway. But Pippen felt hurt that MJ would think so and said it publicly. It's not in the wrong nor in the right. It just is what it is.
I most definitely know why. Jordan has a bigger fan base. And thus all logic gets thrown out. I'm big on consistency. It's not just that Jordan retired. It's when he decoded to retire. Keep in mind that were talking about doing what's in the best interest of the team even over family. It's just the double standard.



He said he was their best player. He felt disrespected. He felt like he could've made the shot and deserved it. And the way he handled it wasn't right. He imagined that Phil was a racist to give a reason to reject him. Even when he knew he was in the wrong of thinking that, he still called him a racist in interviews. And everyone who wants the last shot has to have confidence within themselves. But his reasoning was selfish to me. It wasn't about "I would've been okay if it was another person" he complained about "Why wasn't it for me?" At that point, it wasn't about the team. It was about respect. And it was respected within himself. The fact he talks about himself in that regard is selfish imo. That there isn't anything wrong with being selfish, but I just don't like him talking about the team yet wanting that to himself. And calling Phil a racist just because of that call because his feelings were hurt. And he admitted this, and he admitted he was in the wrong. Yet in interviews, he doubles down.
This is your interpretation. The only thing that makes it remotely valid is that Kukoc made the shot. Had he missed, then Pippen is much more vindicated. Had Kukoc missed, eveyone wouldve been saying that Pippen shouldve taken the last shot. Or why would Jackson give the shot to Kukoc a rookie?



Some of the best players in the world were psychos or assholes though. I mean, you are b-ball fan. You should know how crazy-obsessed Kobe was, and how mean Hakeem and Shaq were. And MJ was the same thing. Hell, Kobe and Shaq would tell how crazy they were. How Magic was obsessed. But not all of them were assholes. And if they were assholes, they weren't assholes off the court. A lot of the stories are kept hidden from us, so we don't know everything. And it's unknown how that sort of leadership work out. Shaq tried to fight Kobe multiple times, but they were amazing together. Shaq tried similar bully tactics that MJ did. Kobe said that Shaq wouldn't respect ppl what he would bully. He would get in their face, destroy them in practice, and talk a bunch of shit, to the point where they were scared to even get on the bus. How much of that weed ppl out or contribute to winning? I don't know. But their play still impacted the game.

And it depends on your tolerance level and how much you are willing to take in terms of personality. Kenny Smith said there were fights every other practice and Hakeem would yell at them and slap/fight ppl. And they would still win and it motivated each other. Bill Russell was an ass to ppl he coached. Jimmy Butler was an ass while he was with the T'wolves yet they went to the playoffs the first year after missing it for first two years when KAT was there. And after Butler left, they missed it for 4 years.

CP3 is reportedly an asshole, yet he evaluated his team everywhere he goes. He is also described as crazy competitive and obsessed.

We don't know how many top players are assholes. And guys like Rodman who saw MJ, couldn't deal with the Shaq and Kobe environment. Guys like KG headbutt rookie Kendrick Perkins, called him trash and try to punk him. And yet he was also one of the most amazing floor raisers when it comes to defense, communication, and etc. But that was just rookie Perkins, don't know how he is with his teammates overall. But he would yell and talk a lot.

There is a bunch of nuances. You can be an ass, but on the floor, you could evaluate your teammates. We have seen that happen. But you don't have to be an ass. We have seen that too. With MJ, he was an ass. Pip wasn't.
At the least, when you get to that level, most athletes have egos. Jordan being a jerk seems to be more a thing of a strength in the eyes of his fans. I'm a Jordan fan and I never saw that logic. Again, I think the Bulls success relieved much of Jordan's behavior. I don't believe Jordan being a jerk made his teammates better.




Are we ignoring the context? What they complained about? Like Ron Harper said it was good documentary and MJ inspired his teammates to work harder. He just wished it talk about the team better. Ron Harper doesn't agree with Pippen. At least not all the way.

Grant complained about being a snitch and the idea of being "bullied" than the team play.

Will Purdue got punched by MJ. That doesn't get talked about. He also thought MJ was a great teammate despite being an asshole. He didn't complain nearly as much as Pippen.

Pippen wrote a book complaining about everything The Last Dance did. And what he could've done is what Bill Cartwright and Ron Harper did. No one is calling them whiners. It's because of how they said it.

It's just like the thing you said with Horry. That Horry said Phil Jackson was a racist, but he said the exact opposite. There was the context within what he said. You said Ron Harper complained about the doc, but he also said it was good. He complimented MJ and inspired others to work hard. He wasn't the only one said that, but a lot of them acknowledge that the team was more than just one person.

The common denominator is Jordan. Jordan couldve spoke more about the team in his documentary, Jordan was violent, Jordan was a bully, Jordan insulted Pippen. You don't see the pattern? Again Pippen is being called a whiner for answering QUESTIONS. ANSWERING QUESTIONS. You don't want to acknowledge that.


Like I said, you could call MJ a whiner about the Pistons. But the reason why ppl called Pippen a whiner about this whole thing is that it seems like jealousy and wanting more credit than what ppl think he deserved. Whatever that's true, it's up to the individual to decide.
How is it whining if you're answering a question? Lol. Jordan gets asked about Thomas and the Pistons and he tells how he feels. Whining is unnecessary complaining. I just can't seem to understand why it's ok for one and not the other.

[Overdrive]

I asked you two specific questions bro. You answered neither.

I gave you a general answer because you thought I hold Jordan to a different standard than Pippen or the rest. I don't.

Did Pippen get backstabbed by:

Jordan? Yes, in a way. He praised him, while highlighting a few shortcomings in order to bolster his own ego. Should a great player like Jordan do that? No, it's a clear sign of insecurity and a lack of empathy for Pippen who's obviously also struggling with selfworth.

The management? No. Pippen signed a deal before the new CBA against any advice and kept complaining about it. If you do this in the private sector you'll get laid off. That was his own doing.

I answered the second question with my general answer. It's pitiful. Media just loves him for being what he was as a basketballplayer so he often isn't held accountable for his off court shortcomings. This in no way makes Pippen's behavour any better or excuseable.

The only way you can excuse Pippen's behaviour is by saying "but the others did too" and that's no reasoning that makes any sense beyond elementary school level. Pippen is a frustrated, insecure idiot, who believes he deserves more credit than he's given, because he thinks of himself as an equal to Jordan in skills, because at some point someone might've said so, while the general basketball watching public thinks differently.

He simply can't cope with that emotionally and Jordan, the reckless psycho that he is, shoved that down his throat in the doc. Both parties are at wrong here, but you act like Pippen is some sort of victim.

A victim to what? We've seen peak Pippen without MJ, we've seen his ceiling. His career would've been that of Dominque or even worse. So he's the victim of being a top 30 player by being teammates with Jordan, albeit the most important one. He should just come out and say: "MJ you're an asshole, but I'm grateful to have been part of the most successful orga of the 90s." But he can't. He wants to be the victim.

[Micku]

I dont consider either as being a whiner. Thats not my argument. Im asking as to why theres a different set of rules for the two players.

I most definitely know why. Jordan has a bigger fan base. And thus all logic gets thrown out. I'm big on consistency. It's not just that Jordan retired. It's when he decoded to retire. Keep in mind that were talking about doing what's in the best interest of the team even over family. It's just the double standard.


MJ does have a bigger fanbase, that is true. And that does play into it. However the fanbase would acknowledge that MJ was an asshole and he might have been the best teammate, but he got shit done. With Pippen, they didn't like that he didn't play. Even with Shaq with his fanbase, ppl didn't like it that he healed on company time either. I do get Pippen side. Even though they warned him what they were going to do before he signed the contract, it showed that they treat it like a business. So, Pippen decided to do what he did. He isn't in the wrong.



This is your interpretation. The only thing that makes it remotely valid is that Kukoc made the shot. Had he missed, then Pippen is much more vindicated. Had Kukoc missed, eveyone wouldve been saying that Pippen shouldve taken the last shot. Or why would Jackson give the shot to Kukoc a rookie?


What is my interpretation? The only thing I put that my take on is that he was being selfish. I did provide quotes. I reference his books and I could even put up his videos. He still called Phil a racist even though he knew it was wrong and stupid. He admitted his feelings were hurt. He admitted that he wanted the shot because of all the dirty work and wanted a chance to prove it without MJ being there. He said that on video. There was nothing he said about the team.

And that's okay that he wanted the last shot and the chance to prove it without MJ. But like you said and other ppl said, he handled it in the wrong way. Now why did Phil decide to give it Kukoc? I don't know. Was he right? It turned out to be a good choice but those things go up and down.


At the least, when you get to that level, most athletes have egos. Jordan being a jerk seems to be more a thing of a strength in the eyes of his fans. I'm a Jordan fan and I never saw that logic. Again, I think the Bulls success relieved much of Jordan's behavior. I don't believe Jordan being a jerk made his teammates better.


MJ wasn't the only superstar to do that. We legit don't talk about the antics that Shaq did and we don't know even the half of it. Same thing with other stars. It's still being done now. I don't know the full capacity of MJ being jerk. All we know is that his teammates called MJ a jerk. Was he more of an ass than Shaq-Kobe? Jimmy Butler was an ass while he was on the court, but with Miami he is the perfect fit? And keep in mind, these guys always provide wins.

The question is whether their attitude help the teammates win or was the level of play? I do think with their talent, they almost always a positive on the floor. I don't know if that is the right way to play all the time. As Barkley said, there are some players who would get to evaluate themselves by talking trash, being mean to each other, and keeping themselves mentally tough in practice. To lit a fire. And there are some players that you can't. Each player is different. And some of MJ teammates don't consider him a good leader or person. But some do consider him a good leader, but not a good person. You would have to be in that type of environment to see if it's right for you.

We don't know whether it had a positive effect or not in terms of MJ style of leadership. We know his teammates didn't like it, but just because you didn't like something doesn't mean it isn't working or that is working. They did win, but they won because they had a great team. Not just because of MJ leadership. And again, you can win in multiple ways and different styles of leadership.




The common denominator is Jordan. Jordan couldve spoke more about the team in his documentary, Jordan was violent, Jordan was a bully, Jordan insulted Pippen. You don't see the pattern? Again Pippen is being called a whiner for answering QUESTIONS. ANSWERING QUESTIONS. You don't want to acknowledge that.


How is it whining if you're answering a question? Lol. Jordan gets asked about Thomas and the Pistons and he tells how he feels. Whining is unnecessary complaining. I just can't seem to understand why it's ok for one and not the other.

I answered this and even acknowledge this. And again I said this:



And what he could've done is what Bill Cartwright and Ron Harper did. No one is calling them whiners. It's because of how they said it.


Again, he is not a whiner for answering the question. He is coming off as a whiner for how he is answering the question.

You don't have to like the doc. No one is calling ppl who didn't like the doc whiny. And no one is saying Pippen is whiny because he didn't like the doc. The context of why he didn't like the doc and how he is expressing it is coming off as whiny. There is a difference between how Pippen and Grant answer the question and how Harper and Cartwright answer the question.

Pippen goes:
"MJ wouldn't have been a star without me! They didn't talk about the team as much! Look what we did that one game while MJ was on the bench! We can be good without MJ! Look at our 94 year!! Phil was a racist because he didn't let me take the last shot! But I think it's silly now that I writing it. My bad! All my teammates loved me more than MJ!"

then writes a whole book about it. Thinking he got disrespected.

Cartwright said:
"MJ was a great player, the best player in the league, but his leadership wasn't the best. The doc is okay, but it didn't highlight the whole team. The coaching staff got us prepared. We were all competitive."

Harper said:
"MJ inspired us to work harder, he's a good leader, but he tried to bully you. I'm not one to be bullied. The doc is cool, but it doesn't show exactly how good the team was."

And again, I'm not the only one who thinks Pippen come across as whiny. There are reviews of his books that state he is whiny. Articles and talking heads. You can go on amazon right now and check it out. I'll give you some quotes:



the more appropriate title for this book would be "Butthurt" rather than "Unguarded". Pippen comes off very pretentious and unusually bitter. He communicates that he feels snubbed when people retrospectively consider that Bull's dynasty. He thinks MJ got too much credit and that Jordan was inappropriately self-glorifying in The Last Dance.
...
MJ was certainly unapologetically selfish and harsh. But the irony is that through this book Pippen demonstrates the same brash arrogance that he accuses MJ of having.

This person rated it 4 stars.



Other reviewers comment that Scottie is bitter, jealous, etc. On the contrary. Read the book. Put yourselves in Scottie's shoes. You can't read this book, thinking you're MJ or anyone else.


This person rated it 5 stars.

https://www.amazon.com/Unguarded-Scottie-Pippen/dp/1982165197#customerReviews

And the fact that ppl are constantly saying that he is coming off as bitter, whiny and jealous shows that something is wrong with in how he is saying it. This shows his miscommunication in how he gets his point across. If everyone is calling you whiny, bitter and jealous, and you don't want to express that, then you have to change how you communicate. Change the words and tone of how you say it.

[97 bulls]

MJ does have a bigger fanbase, which is true. And that does play into it. However, the fanbase would acknowledge that MJ was an asshole and he might have been the best teammate, but he got shit done. With Pippen, they didn't like that he didn't play. Even with Shaq with his fanbase, ppl didn't like it that he healed on company time either. There were a few who defended his actions. But that's it. But it's not something that gets brought up too often. Just in the doc where MJ said he didn't want like it. Pippen incident in 94 gets talked about way more often.

Lol. Again for like the 5th time. People calling Jordan an asshole is to be taken as a compliment. They literally say that Jordan being that way shaped the team into a killing machine. Calling Jordan an asshole by his fans is by no means to be taken as being disparaging.


What is my interpretation? The only thing I put that my take on is that he was being selfish. I did provide quotes. I reference his books and I could even put up his videos. He still called Phil a racist even though he knew it was wrong and stupid. He admitted his feelings were hurt. He admitted that he wanted the shot because of all the dirty work and wanted a chance to prove it without MJ being there. He said that on video. There was nothing he said about the team.
He also said, he was the most dangerous player on the team, he had the experience, Kukoc was a rookie, he at least wanted to be on the court even if to be nothing more than a decoy. You cherrypicked certain quotes from Pippen. He didnt just say that the only reason he wanted the shot was because it was his turn. You take it as him being selfish, I take it as he feeling he was the Bulls best shot at winning. Like is said, had Kukoc MISSED? I beleive Jackson goes down in infamy, because everyone wouldve said that Pippen shouldve been given the opportunity.




MJ wasn't the only superstar to do that. We legit don't talk about the antics that Shaq did and we don't know even the half of it. Same thing with other stars. It's still being done now. I don't know the full capacity of MJ being jerk. All we know is that his teammates called MJ a jerk. Was he more of an ass than Shaq-Kobe? Jimmy Butler was an ass while he was on the court, but with Miami he is the perfect fit? And keep in mind, these guys always provide wins.

The question is whether their attitude help the teammates win or was the level of play? I do think with their talent, they almost always a positive on the floor. I don't know if that is the right way to play all the time. As Barkley said, there are some players who would get to evaluate themselves by talking trash, being mean to each other, and keeping themselves mentally tough in practice. To lit a fire. And there are some players that you can't. Each player is different. And some of MJ teammates don't consider him a good leader or person. But some do consider him a good leader, but not a good person. You would have to be in that type of environment to see if it's right for you.

We don't know whether it had a positive effect or not in terms of MJ style of leadership. We know his teammates didn't like it, but just because you didn't like something doesn't mean it isn't working or that is working. They did win, but they won because they had a great team. Not just because of MJ leadership. And again, you can win in multiple ways and different styles of leadership.

True



I answered this and even acknowledge this. And again I said this:



Again, he is not a whiner for answering the question. He is coming off as a whiner for how he is answering the question.

You don't have to like the doc. No one is calling ppl who didn't like the doc whiny. And no one is saying Pippen is whiny because he didn't like the doc. The context of why he didn't like the doc and how he is expressing it is coming off as whiny. There is a difference between how Pippen and Grant answer the question and how Harper and Cartwright answer the question.

Pippen goes:
"MJ wouldn't have been a star without me! They didn't talk about the team as much! Look what we did that one game while MJ was on the bench! We can be good without MJ! Look at our 94 year!! Phil was a racist because he didn't let me take the last shot! But I think it's silly now that I writing it. My bad! All my teammates loved me more than MJ!"

then writes a whole book about it. Thinking he got disrespected.

Cartwright said:
"MJ was a great player, the best player in the league, but his leadership wasn't the best. The doc is okay, but it didn't highlight the whole team. The coaching staff got us prepared. We were all competitive."

Harper said:
"MJ inspired us to work harder, he's a good leader, but he tried to bully you. I'm not one to be bullied. The doc is cool, but it doesn't show exactly how good the team was."
I think the problem with Pippen is that his words dont come out quite right. Like the quote you mentioned. Jordan was already a great individual player, but it didnt translate to winning. I wouldve said I dont believe Jordan comes to be considered the GOAT by the consensus without me (Pippen). And thats not whining. Thats true. Or, Pippen saying Jordan was a terrible player before he arrived. Lol smh, thats nuts. But when I listen to the context, he meant from a team perspective. And again, that's true. See what people miss, is that in that same interview, when he's asked to name his all-time starting five, he lists Jordan. The other quotes you mentioned came from teammates who didn't invest nearly as much as Pippen did. Pip was there from the start. So they're answering two different talking points. Harper and Cartwright are talking about Jordans effect on the teams success with regard to his attitude. Pippen is talking about his effect on how Jordan came to be regarded.

And I do feel Pippen gets a raw deal as far as his credit. People saying stupid stuff like Jordan made him? That's an insult. You got people saying Jordan literally won 6 titles by himself. When you're called a Pippen, it's considered an insult, lol. Stupid talking points like anyone could've won with Jordan? Those are insults. You got a bunch of Jordan fans that literally say Pippen was a bum. I think the credit Pippen is looking for isn't so much from his contemporaries but from the fans.


And again, I'm not the only one who thinks Pippen comes across as whiny. There are reviews of his books that state he is whiny. Articles and talking heads. You can go on amazon right now and check it out. I'll give you some quotes:


This person rated it 4 stars.



This person rated it 5 stars.

https://www.amazon.com/Unguarded-Scottie-Pippen/dp/1982165197#customerReviews

The fact that ppl are constantly saying that he is coming off as bitter, whiny, and jealous shows that something is wrong with how he is saying it. This shows his miscommunication in how he gets his point across. If everyone is calling you whiny, bitter, and jealous, and you don't want to express that, then you have to change how you communicate. Change the words and tone of how you say it.

Lol. He should be bitter. I'd be bitter too based on how he's portrayed in media. I'd be bitter if I'm playing on a foot that needs to be surgically repaired, underpaid, and co-helped my team win 5 titles. And as a reward, I'm hearing my name being brought up in trade talks. You wouldn't be bitter?

[Micku]

Lol. Again for like the 5th time. People calling Jordan an asshole is to be taken as a compliment. They literally say that Jordan being that way shaped the team into a killing machine. Calling Jordan an asshole by his fans is by no means to be taken as being disparaging.



You're right about that. If they were losing, then it would've been MJ would've been a team cancer based on his attitude and behavior with his teammates. Like I said previously, I do get Pippen being hurt by the organization. I get his side. The Bulls did give him the courtesy of telling them what they were going to do if he signed the contract. On that part, it was self-inflicted on Pippen''s part. But the Bulls treat it like a business and didn't take care of Pippen. He deserved to get paid more and they weren't treating him right overall. Granted, they had no obligation to do so, so Pippen responded back and treated it like a business on his part too. The bulls damaged his morale. Pippen wasn't in the wrong. The Bulls did say what they were going to do, but they didn't go above and beyond for him either.

MJ didn't like it. I get why he didn't. He expressed his opinions about it.



He also said, he was the most dangerous player on the team, he had the experience, Kukoc was a rookie, he at least wanted to be on the court even if to be nothing more than a decoy. You cherrypicked certain quotes from Pippen. He didnt just say that the only reason he wanted the shot was because it was his turn. You take it as him being selfish, I take it as he feeling he was the Bulls best shot at winning. Like is said, had Kukoc MISSED? I beleive Jackson goes down in infamy, because everyone wouldve said that Pippen shouldve been given the opportunity.


I am really cherrypicking? Or is it the flip flop of stuff that Pippen would say, which I stated before. Especially on the racist comment. I do believe he was selfish at that moment because of the context of what he said. Even on the racist comment. His way of rationalizing it. But lets recap of everything Pippen said at that moment. He believed he was their best shot in winning, he believed he was the most dangerous player on the team, the best player on the team, he wanted it because he did all the dirty work prior and because MJ wasn't there, he believed it was disrespectful Phil wanted to give the ball to Kukoc instead, he got pissed and believed Phil was a racist because of this (his way of coping), but he didn't have any ill will towards Kukoc or anything like that.

Did I miss anything? Other than him wanting to be out there too.

In my eyes, that is selfish. But I also don't think that it's negative to want that. It's how he acted that was the problem and later on when he was promoting his book and going on interviews.



I think the problem with Pippen is that his words dont come out quite right. Like the quote you mentioned. Jordan was already a great individual player, but it didnt translate to winning. I wouldve said i dont believe Jordan comes to be considered the GOAT by the consensus without me (Pippen). And thats not whining. Thats true. The other quotes you mentioned came from teammates that didnt invest nearly as much as Pippen did. Pip was there from the start. So they're answering two different talking points. Harper and Cartwright are talking about Jordans effect on the teams success with regard to his attitude. Pippen is talking about his effect on how Jordan came to be regarded.

And I do feel Pippen gets a raw deal as far as his credit. People saying stupid stuff like Jordan made him? That's an insult. You got people saying Jordan literally won 6 titles by himself. When you're called a Pippen, it's considered an insult lol. Stupid talking points like anyone could've won with Jordan? Those are insults. You got a bunch of Jordan fans that literally say Pippen was a bum. I think the credit Pippen is looking for isn't so much from his contemporaries, but from the fans.


That part is true. Even MJ would've agreed to that. You can go even further say without Phil, Tex or the rest of the Bulls. But he just didn't say that. And he changes his mind on whether MJ is the GOAT or not. And he said he wouldn't have been a superstar without him, and that isn't true. He was a superstar before Pippen get into the league. That comes across as bitter. Same thing now when he said MJ was a horrible player before him. And I feel like that's a case in point in how Pippen say things. Even you could write a script for Pippen that doesn't make him sound as whiny or bitter. But Pippen can't do it himself. That's why Ron Harper said to stop putting a mic in front of him. It's self-damaging in terms of self-image, but it's a great way to get attention.

And MJ didn't make Pippen. He may have helped evaluate Pippen in terms of defense or attacking in the offense, but we don't know for sure or the details. It's the same thing as how MJ taught Kobe a few tricks. He taught Carmelo how to score easier by changing his mindset. There are nice little tricks that we may not know too much about. And not anyone could win with MJ. You need talent, obviously. Pippen had talent. There are fans who just say crazy stuff. What ppl would say is that Pippen is more replaceable than MJ. They used to say the same thing about Kobe. And that's just because MJ was one of the most talented, consistent, and skilled players ever. Like he is once in a generation type. And I think if Pippen is trying to appeal to the fans, then I don't think that is succeeding. He is getting attention, but the fans aren't feeling him like that. And I think it's because of how he says things and the tone in which he says it.


Lol. He should be bitter. I'd be bitter too based on how he's portrayed in media. I'd be bitter if I'm playing on a foot that needs to be surgically repaired, underpaid, and co-helped my team win 5 titles. And as a reward I'm hearing my name being brought up in trade talks. You wouldn't be bitter?

Nope. After being retired for nearly 20 years, naw. I'll be bitter about the other personal stuff in his life, but not really about the basketball career. Everyone is different tho. Like Barkley, he would crack jokes, make fun at people and laugh at himself. Carmelo mentioned how he is at peace with not winning anything. But Jerry West is still in pain over what happened in 1969. Larry Bird is still pissed about the college game against Magic.

You can find peace in whatever. But I definitely wouldn't call Phil a racist when I believed he wasn't. Neither would I think that Phil is a racist for not drawing up the last play for me as a coping mechanism. I wouldn't say MJ wouldn't have been a superstar without me. If I was in Pippen shoes I would say that you don't think MJ leadership helped in the lockerroom, but acknowledge the hardwork he put into his craft and I would highlight my leadership skills to help counter MJ bully tactics. I would be upset about the money, but I would find some way to warn players not to let it happen to you. Don't do the same mistake that I did. Say it's a business and you got to protect yourself. Pippen has money and he made it. Ppl acknowledge him as one of the best robins and top 50 players of all time. Ppl acknowledge his defensive skills and all-around play. That's cool. Even if Pip thinks he is underrated, he could put it out there in a better way or be more confident in himself instead of trying to prove to other ppl.

I would personally do a series explaining the plays and schemes with the bulls and modern basketball to give the audience an understanding of the little things.

[ImKobe]

In order to tell an accurate historical account, The Last Dance needed to tell the story of Pippen being a choker and arguably the biggest choker in NBA history (the most legendary chokes and meltdowns).


The beginner foul choke ("never foul a jumpshooter"):


https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif



THE GOAT MELTDOWN:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-04-2022/B-6qB7.gif



WORST-EVER CLUTCH


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif



^^^^ Pippen was historically embarrassed without MJ.

Let's not forget that Pippen's "migraine" in 1990 prevented one of the biggest upsets in history and Jordan's 1st title.. Pippen also has many bricks and turnovers with the game on the line like his 2 missed FT's before Miller's legendary winner in 98' ECF or the 99' 1st Round blunder with Houston and many more.

And no... He wasn't tough because x-man BULLIED pippen in the 92' 2nd Round, which nearly caused an upset loss and required MJ to step in during Game 7 to confront X-Man and prevent another "migraine".. Pippen was choking in Game 7 all over again but MJ stopped it - being the enforcer for Pippen was part of MJ's organic learning curve.


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif


#carried

this

[97 bulls]

They didn't talk about Cliff Levingston help defense either in 91, which was amazing.

They didn't talk about Rodman defense on Shaq.

They didn't talk about Luc Longley.

But they also didn't think about MJ scoring like 15-20 pts in the clutch in 1989 against the Cavs. They talk about the game winner, but not the details of it. Hell, no one really mention how impressive that 89 run was in detail.

They didn't talk about how good of a job MJ did on defending Cylde Drexler.

I don't remember if they talked about the good defense Pippen did on Mark Jackson? I legit forgot.

We talk about how good MJ was, they don't talk about the details in the actual game plan. I think the Knicks straight up tried not to toss the ball or run their actions where ever MJ side was. They talk about how the shot creation overall nor the low turnovers. Dude created like 15 open shots in one game for his teammates while scoring 39 pts 1992 Finals and that was more than the entire 2014 playoffs.

The documentary did show how good of a player MJ was but not in detail. Not in detail at all. Dude doing things that were insane and this was before all of the advanced stats started.
The Bulls were insane too tho, more than just MJ. They were a great team. The best in their respective era. From the coaching staff to most of the teammates that they have, they were really great. And they weren't the most talented team either.

But the documentary itself wasn't Kobe's "detailed" series for hardcore b-ball fans.

It really could've talked about how good the Bulls were from a basketball standpoint and really show why MJ was the best player. It wasn't that type of documentary and you'll never get that from a mainstream format. It didn't even describe the triangle in detail if I can recall.

I didn't see this comment. Bro, you're being obtuse. Cliff Levingston? Really? Obviously, there's no way to add every great contribution that evey player had to the Bulls championship runs. But the moments I named are the iconic moments that standout.

They did talk about the matchup between Drexler. And Drexler responded by saying he was hurt in that Championship.

[97 bulls]

I gave you a general answer because you thought I hold Jordan to a different standard than Pippen or the rest. I don't.

Did Pippen get backstabbed by:

Jordan? Yes, in a way. He praised him, while highlighting a few shortcomings in order to bolster his own ego. Should a great player like Jordan do that? No, it's a clear sign of insecurity and a lack of empathy for Pippen who's obviously also struggling with selfworth.

The management? No. Pippen signed a deal before the new CBA against any advice and kept complaining about it. If you do this in the private sector you'll get laid off. That was his own doing.

I answered the second question with my general answer. It's pitiful. Media just loves him for being what he was as a basketballplayer so he often isn't held accountable for his off court shortcomings. This in no way makes Pippen's behavour any better or excuseable.

The only way you can excuse Pippen's behaviour is by saying "but the others did too" and that's no reasoning that makes any sense beyond elementary school level. Pippen is a frustrated, insecure idiot, who believes he deserves more credit than he's given, because he thinks of himself as an equal to Jordan in skills, because at some point someone might've said so, while the general basketball watching public thinks differently.

He simply can't cope with that emotionally and Jordan, the reckless psycho that he is, shoved that down his throat in the doc. Both parties are at wrong here, but you act like Pippen is some sort of victim.

A victim to what? We've seen peak Pippen without MJ, we've seen his ceiling. His career would've been that of Dominque or even worse. So he's the victim of being a top 30 player by being teammates with Jordan, albeit the most important one. He should just come out and say: "MJ you're an asshole, but I'm grateful to have been part of the most successful orga of the 90s." But he can't. He wants to be the victim.
I agree with parts of the bold. Pippen did sign the contract and he was obligated to fulfill it. The Bulls were not obligated to renegotiate his contract. But he's not obligated to do anything above fulfilling his contract. So why is he selfish? Why does Pippen have to be loyal to an organization that wasn't loyal to him?

I keep hearing people say that Pippen was warned not to sign that contract. Not that it matter, but Pippen says that's not true. He never had a discussion with Reinsdorf about contract negotiations. He even stated that players never have conversations with owners about their contract. That seems to get overlooked.

[97 bulls]

You're right about that. If they were losing, then it would've been MJ would've been a team cancer based on his attitude and behavior with his teammates. Like I said previously, I do get Pippen being hurt by the organization. I get his side. The Bulls did give him the courtesy of telling them what they were going to do if he signed the contract. On that part, it was self-inflicted on Pippen''s part. But the Bulls treat it like a business and didn't take care of Pippen. He deserved to get paid more and they weren't treating him right overall. Granted, they had no obligation to do so, so Pippen responded back and treated it like a business on his part too. The bulls damaged his morale. Pippen wasn't in the wrong. The Bulls did say what they were going to do, but they didn't go above and beyond for him either.
MJ didn't like it. I get why he didn't. He expressed his opinions about it.

This is all im saying. However, Pippen did say that he never had a conversation with Reinsdorf about that contract he signed. He said that owners never negotiate with players with regards to contracts. I still feel Jordan was wrong as a teammate and so-called friend to call him selfish publicly.


I am really cherrypicking? Or is it the flip flop of stuff that Pippen would say, which I stated before. Especially on the racist comment. I do believe he was selfish at that moment because of the context of what he said. Even on the racist comment. His way of rationalizing it. But lets recap of everything Pippen said at that moment. He believed he was their best shot in winning, he believed he was the most dangerous player on the team, the best player on the team, he wanted it because he did all the dirty work prior and because MJ wasn't there, he believed it was disrespectful Phil wanted to give the ball to Kukoc instead, he got pissed and believed Phil was a racist because of this (his way of coping), but he didn't have any ill will towards Kukoc or anything like that.

Did I miss anything? Other than him wanting to be out there too.

In my eyes, that is selfish. But I also don't think that it's negative to want that. It's how he acted that was the problem and later on when he was promoting his book and going on interviews.
You were cherrypicking because you focused on one quote from Pippen. But you acknowledged Pippens total views here. Not sure why you see him as being selfish. Under those circumstances, hes the best man for the job.

You keep bringing up Pippen calling Jackson a racist. He backed off that statement bro. Let it go. I don't think Jackson was a racist for drawing up the play for Kukoc. I think he was wrong.


that part is true. Even MJ would've agreed to that. You can go even further say without Phil, Tex or the rest of the Bulls. But he just didn't say that. And he changes his mind on whether MJ is the GOAT or not. And he said he wouldn't have been a superstar without him, and that isn't true. He was a superstar before Pippen get into the league. That comes across as bitter. Same thing now when he said MJ was a horrible player before him. And I feel like that's a case in point in how Pippen say things. Even you could write a script for Pippen that doesn't make him sound as whiny or bitter. But Pippen can't do it himself. That's why Ron Harper said to stop putting a mic in front of him. It's self-damaging in terms of self-image, but it's a great way to get attention.

And MJ didn't make Pippen. He may have helped evaluate Pippen in terms of defense or attacking in the offense, but we don't know for sure or the details. It's the same thing as how MJ taught Kobe a few tricks. He taught Carmelo how to score easier by changing his mindset. There are nice little tricks that we may not know too much about. And not anyone could win with MJ. You need talent, obviously. Pippen had talent. There are fans who just say crazy stuff. What ppl would say is that Pippen is more replaceable than MJ. They used to say the same thing about Kobe. And that's just because MJ was one of the most talented, consistent, and skilled players ever. Like he is once in a generation type. And I think if Pippen is trying to appeal to the fans, then I don't think that is succeeding. He is getting attention, but the fans aren't feeling him like that. And I think it's because of how he says things and the tone in which he says it.

Pippen gave credit to Jackson and Winter in the interview he did with Stacey King. And again, he said he take Jordan on his alltime team. I think if people would listen to the context and everything he said, and stop being so sensitive about their idol Michael Jordan, theyd see that Pippen called MJ a bad team player before he got there. Not a bad individual talent.


Nope. After being retired for nearly 20 years, naw. I'll be bitter about the other personal stuff in his life, but not really about the basketball career. Everyone is different tho. Like Barkley, he would crack jokes, make fun at people and laugh at himself. Carmelo mentioned how he is at peace with not winning anything. But Jerry West is still in pain over what happened in 1969. Larry Bird is still pissed about the college game against Magic.

You can find peace in whatever. But I definitely wouldn't call Phil a racist when I believed he wasn't. Neither would I think that Phil is a racist for not drawing up the last play for me as a coping mechanism. I wouldn't say MJ wouldn't have been a superstar without me. If I was in Pippen shoes I would say that you don't think MJ leadership helped in the lockerroom, but acknowledge the hardwork he put into his craft and I would highlight my leadership skills to help counter MJ bully tactics. I would be upset about the money, but I would find some way to warn players not to let it happen to you. Don't do the same mistake that I did. Say it's a business and you got to protect yourself. Pippen has money and he made it. Ppl acknowledge him as one of the best robins and top 50 players of all time. Ppl acknowledge his defensive skills and all-around play. That's cool. Even if Pip thinks he is underrated, he could put it out there in a better way or be more confident in himself instead of trying to prove to other ppl.

I would personally do a series explaining the plays and schemes with the bulls and modern basketball to give the audience an understanding of the little things.
Fair enough.

[WhiteKyrie]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cs87PdPu4bv/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

This video recaps Pippen's role in a tight game 1 win vs. the Jazz in the 97 Finals. Pippen is playing this championship series on a foot that needed surgery. A bunch of so-called Bulls fans and Jordanaires have gone out of their way to call Pippen "soft" and a "bum." Jordan called him selfish for opting to have surgery during the season. Pippen gave his heart and soul this series as he did the previous 4 championships. Only to find out that Krause was trying to trade him. Absolutely no loyalty. Then, his so-called friend Jordan, knowing all that had happened, calls him selfish in that Jordanmentary called the last dance.

Pippen was disrespected by the Bulls organization, the fans, and most of all Michael Jordan. I'd say eff them too.

Of course you we wouldn't expect anything less out of you, cause we all know you’re a LeBron stan pretending to be a 90s Bull fan and a Bulls super fan.

And an obvious Jordan hater.

Everything Pippen is doing is outlandish and selfish. He sounds stupid as hell. And both Mike and PJ were very good to him. As were the Bulls. He just pushed it all away with his selfishness. And now talks stupid as hell to double and triple down.

It’s sad what’s happened to him. And what he’s doing to the memory of such a great team. Nothing portrayed in the Last Dance wasn’t 100% not accurate and didn’t not glorify him when obviously deserved.

[Micku]

This is all im saying. However, Pippen did say that he never had a conversation with Reinsdorf about that contract he signed. He said that owners never negotiate with players with regards to contracts. I still feel Jordan was wrong as a teammate and so-called friend to call him selfish publicly.


That's he said, she said type of thing then. But I know it isn't altogether true that owners never talk about players in regards to contracts because that wasn't what happened with Magic. Buss basically adapted Magic and told him about parts of the business and everything. But that was a different relationship.

Pippen took a gamble tho. He said he wouldn't want to get hurt and not be able to provide for his loved ones. So, he took the contract. It just didn't work out with him and the owners didn't give him a solid after he signed. He still made money tho.



You were cherrypicking because you focused on one quote from Pippen. But you acknowledged Pippens total views here. Not sure why you see him as being selfish. Under those circumstances, hes the best man for the job.

You keep bringing up Pippen calling Jackson a racist. He backed off that statement bro. Let it go. I don't think Jackson was a racist for drawing up the play for Kukoc. I think he was wrong.


I quoted more than just one quote from Pippen about the situation. Not only from the book but from the interviews too. And I don't think you don't get why I see him as selfish as much as you disagree with my reasoning. The fact is, he wanted to take the last shot because of he believed he was the best player and he earned it. He didn't. That in itself is selfish. But that's not my problem. You have to be a little selfish to play in that lvl. My problem is that he is out there promoting team play yet at the same time he wanted the media to acknowledge him and give him more credit. Because he is like, "What about me? Give me credit. I did this, I did that. I was a better teammate than MJ." The fact that he said "I" is the selfish part. And then he mixes in when saying the word team. There's a reason why ppl think he is jealous and bitter, it's because of that reason.

And you know the reason why I keep mentioning that racist remark? Because he was in the wrong, and he knew he was in the wrong. Yet he still said it in interviews even after the fact. He criticizes MJ for disrespecting him yet at the same time Phil called him a racist just because of a basketball play that had nothing to do with race. And that is the reason why it rubbed ppl the wrong way. Even when you mention how Horry said Phil was a racist (which he didn't), which tries to validate Pippen asinine coping mechanism. Pip isn't in the right in this situation.

And that is a prime example of why ppl may not go to his side. He handled it wrong, he said things in the wrong way, he didn't need to write a book about his opinion on The Last Dance and then go on interviews burning some bridges like that. There are better ways to handle it and address his real points about the Bulls and express how good the team is. Instead, it's buried by the highlight of crazy stuff that he said.

And you say to let it go yet Pip didn't let things go over something that happened nearly 30 years ago. And you said yourself that you would be bitter too. How come he couldn't let go of that bitterness? How come he mentioned it in the first place? Why didn't he say that "I thought this, but I was wrong."

Granted, he said it in his book. But not in the interviews.

With that said, he could be playing the game. Getting ppl to buy his book.



Pippen gave credit to Jackson and Winter in the interview he did with Stacey King. And again, he said he take Jordan on his alltime team. I think if people would listen to the context and everything he said, and stop being so sensitive about their idol Michael Jordan, theyd see that Pippen called MJ a bad team player before he got there. Not a bad individual talent.

I think Pippen needs an editor in what he says sometimes. Like you said, ppl don't pay attention to the context of what he said. They do get sensitive about it, but he does need to change how he says it. MJ was always a great player and he didn't need Pippen to be a superstar. MJ was already a superstar. But could he evaluate a team or get his team involved? And whatever he was a good teammate. That's another topic. Pip gave his teammates props. I think he did say even after the documentary that MJ was the goat and Phil was the goat coach. But then again, he goes back and says MJ is one of the goats because he doesn't think there is a single goat.

He did say that he contributes to winning to be the best. In the same interview, he was talking about how Jokic was the best even though he didn't win mvp. I don't remember if he said he was carrying the team or not prior to this year. But at the same, he didn't make that statement with MJ even though he was great.

He did say Phil had a huge ego and caused the team to break up. Even if they did want to go for another run after 98, Pip would've said no. But he gives credit to Phil because he pulled MJ back when it comes to scoring. But it's funny that as soon as they start comparing teams together like Bulls 96 or Bulls 93 or whatever, his eyes would light up and there is more praise about how good MJ and the team were. That sense of pride he has over the team. Everyone nba star gets like that when talking about their championship teams.

[97 bulls]

Of course you we wouldn't expect anything less out of you, cause we all know you’re a LeBron stan pretending to be a 90s Bull fan and a Bulls super fan.

And an obvious Jordan hater.

Everything Pippen is doing is outlandish and selfish. He sounds stupid as hell. And both Mike and PJ were very good to him. As were the Bulls. He just pushed it all away with his selfishness. And now talks stupid as hell to double and triple down.

It’s sad what’s happened to him. And what he’s doing to the memory of such a great team. Nothing portrayed in the Last Dance wasn’t 100% not accurate and didn’t not glorify him when obviously deserved.

Lol. Bro. This isn't about Lebron James. But I'm on record and I'll say it again. Michael Jordan is the GOAT. There's nothing that I've seen from Lebron James career that can get me to see him as the GOAT. James stats are a product of the rule changes. So I don't put much stock in them. Jordan has no weakness in my opinion.

What I disagree with, is this notion that Jordan won 6 championships by himself, that he made Pippen, that the Bulls weren't a damn good team without him. And for the record, the Bulls were a damn good team without Pippen as well. The first half of the 98 season proves it. But I do feel Pippen is disrespected. And I'm disappointed in Jordan and how he presented the Last Dance.

[WhiteKyrie]

They didn't talk about Cliff Levingston help defense either in 91, which was amazing.

They didn't talk about Rodman defense on Shaq.

They didn't talk about Luc Longley.

But they also didn't think about MJ scoring like 15-20 pts in the clutch in 1989 against the Cavs. They talk about the game winner, but not the details of it. Hell, no one really mention how impressive that 89 run was in detail.

They didn't talk about how good of a job MJ did on defending Cylde Drexler.

I don't remember if they talked about the good defense Pippen did on Mark Jackson? I legit forgot.

We talk about how good MJ was, they don't talk about the details in the actual game plan. I think the Knicks straight up tried not to toss the ball or run their actions where ever MJ side was. They talk about how the shot creation overall nor the low turnovers. Dude created like 15 open shots in one game for his teammates while scoring 39 pts 1992 Finals and that was more than the entire 2014 playoffs.

The documentary did show how good of a player MJ was but not in detail. Not in detail at all. Dude doing things that were insane and this was before all of the advanced stats started.
The Bulls were insane too tho, more than just MJ. They were a great team. The best in their respective era. From the coaching staff to most of the teammates that they have, they were really great. And they weren't the most talented team either.

But the documentary itself wasn't Kobe's "detailed" series for hardcore b-ball fans.

It really could've talked about how good the Bulls were from a basketball standpoint and really show why MJ was the best player. It wasn't that type of documentary and you'll never get that from a mainstream format. It didn't even describe the triangle in detail if I can recall.

Fantastic post. And 100% correct

[Soundwave]

Scottie is just insecure, he can't take criticism, everything has to be on his terms or he explodes on people and starts a feud (from Jordan to Barkley to Phil Jackson to Bulls ownership, etc. etc. etc.).

The documentary highlighted less than flattering things about Jordan (gambler, not the happy go lucky leader but a vicious task master that was far from the teddy bear image in TV commercials), Rodman (partyholic, immature, bailed on the team to go off and do god knows what) ... but it's only Pippen who blows a fuse when legitimate things are included like the incident where he would not go into a game because he was jealous of Kukoc or he refused to get surgery in the summer to spite the Bulls and then demanded a trade out.

This guy cries all day about "not getting enough credit", when the fact is he probably is more well known today than a lot of players he's frankly not as good as. The only players from the 90s other than Jordan who are more well known today from that era are Barkley and Shaq and even that is basically only because they are on TNT on a famous TV show, not even because of their careers per se at this point.

Pippen guy gets way more attention than he frankly deserves. Nobody gives a shit about Hakeem Olajuwon or Patrick Ewing or David Robinson these days even though these players were far better player's than Scottie Pippen. Are they getting even 15 minutes of time on Netflix? The show is for casual viewers too, not just basketball diehards, no one wants to watch 2 full Pippen episodes, like get over yourself buddy. Is James Worthy swearing and feuding with Magic and Kareem because he never gets anywhere near as much attention in Lakers docs' and shows?

It is what it is. Scottie is dumb enough and petty enough to let a TV show on Netflix destroy the relationships he had on the Bulls because he was upset a TV show brought up things he actually did do. Guess they won't be having a team reunion any time soon or maybe Scottie just won't be there. Even Kobe/Shaq were smart enough to reconcile, don't bet on Pippen ever doing it. I don't think this will ever be mended, the way Pippen is and add on top of it his ex-wife dating Jordan's son, and it's pretty much over. That Bulls team is done, I don't think they will ever get over this.

[RogueBorg]

Does this look someone who has a problem with anything Jordan is doing or has done at that time?

https://media0.giphy.com/media/JO9l9C4I21g4M/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952qeswdp06lvovgf5fm861306153qjg rdrb24k6g9u&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

“Michael Jordan was the greatest to ever put on shoes and play in our game. No doubt about it,” Pippen said in 2018 on ESPN.

“I’m always asked to compare him to LeBron. I try to make the best of it. But really the comparison shouldn’t ever be made. They both play two different positions. The way LeBron James plays, Michael Jordan was never asked to play that way because I took that away from him. I was the point forward. I was the facilitator. Michael Jordan was a scorer. He was a defender. He played the game as complete as LeBron James did when he needed to. But he was asked to score the basketball and that’s what he was great at.

“And there’s no game that I would ever play in and pick LeBron James over Michael Jordan. Not if I’m trying to win. I’m not going to give up my teammate who I won six championships with and go and start fishing in a pond thinking I’m going to catch a bigger and better fish.”

[Airupthere]

Scottie is just insecure, he can't take criticism, everything has to be on his terms or he explodes on people and starts a feud (from Jordan to Barkley to Phil Jackson to Bulls ownership, etc. etc. etc.).

The documentary highlighted less than flattering things about Jordan (gambler, not the happy go lucky leader but a vicious task master that was far from the teddy bear image in TV commercials), Rodman (partyholic, immature, bailed on the team to go off and do god knows what) ... but it's only Pippen who blows a fuse when legitimate things are included like the incident where he would not go into a game because he was jealous of Kukoc or he refused to get surgery in the summer to spite the Bulls and then demanded a trade out.

This guy cries all day about "not getting enough credit", when the fact is he probably is more well known today than a lot of players he's frankly not as good as. The only players from the 90s other than Jordan who are more well known today from that era are Barkley and Shaq and even that is basically only because they are on TNT on a famous TV show, not even because of their careers per se at this point.

Pippen guy gets way more attention than he frankly deserves. Nobody gives a shit about Hakeem Olajuwon or Patrick Ewing or David Robinson these days even though these players were far better player's than Scottie Pippen. Are they getting even 15 minutes of time on Netflix? The show is for casual viewers too, not just basketball diehards, no one wants to watch 2 full Pippen episodes, like get over yourself buddy. Is James Worthy swearing and feuding with Magic and Kareem because he never gets anywhere near as much attention in Lakers docs' and shows?

It is what it is. Scottie is dumb enough and petty enough to let a TV show on Netflix destroy the relationships he had on the Bulls because he was upset a TV show brought up things he actually did do. Guess they won't be having a team reunion any time soon or maybe Scottie just won't be there. Even Kobe/Shaq were smart enough to reconcile, don't bet on Pippen ever doing it. I don't think this will ever be mended, the way Pippen is and add on top of it his ex-wife dating Jordan's son, and it's pretty much over. That Bulls team is done, I don't think they will ever get over this.

Pippen went full retard. He could have said something back to defend himself and end it there.

[Da_Realist]

Scottie is just insecure, he can't take criticism, everything has to be on his terms or he explodes on people and starts a feud (from Jordan to Barkley to Phil Jackson to Bulls ownership, etc. etc. etc.).

The documentary highlighted less than flattering things about Jordan (gambler, not the happy go lucky leader but a vicious task master that was far from the teddy bear image in TV commercials), Rodman (partyholic, immature, bailed on the team to go off and do god knows what) ... but it's only Pippen who blows a fuse when legitimate things are included like the incident where he would not go into a game because he was jealous of Kukoc or he refused to get surgery in the summer to spite the Bulls and then demanded a trade out.

This guy cries all day about "not getting enough credit", when the fact is he probably is more well known today than a lot of players he's frankly not as good as. The only players from the 90s other than Jordan who are more well known today from that era are Barkley and Shaq and even that is basically only because they are on TNT on a famous TV show, not even because of their careers per se at this point.

Pippen guy gets way more attention than he frankly deserves. Nobody gives a shit about Hakeem Olajuwon or Patrick Ewing or David Robinson these days even though these players were far better player's than Scottie Pippen. Are they getting even 15 minutes of time on Netflix? The show is for casual viewers too, not just basketball diehards, no one wants to watch 2 full Pippen episodes, like get over yourself buddy. Is James Worthy swearing and feuding with Magic and Kareem because he never gets anywhere near as much attention in Lakers docs' and shows?

It is what it is. Scottie is dumb enough and petty enough to let a TV show on Netflix destroy the relationships he had on the Bulls because he was upset a TV show brought up things he actually did do. Guess they won't be having a team reunion any time soon or maybe Scottie just won't be there. Even Kobe/Shaq were smart enough to reconcile, don't bet on Pippen ever doing it. I don't think this will ever be mended, the way Pippen is and add on top of it his ex-wife dating Jordan's son, and it's pretty much over. That Bulls team is done, I don't think they will ever get over this.

Truth. I see why Scottie wifed up Larsa Kardashian.

[Da_Realist]

Does this look someone who has a problem with anything Jordan is doing or has done at that time?

https://media0.giphy.com/media/JO9l9C4I21g4M/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952qeswdp06lvovgf5fm861306153qjg rdrb24k6g9u&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

“Michael Jordan was the greatest to ever put on shoes and play in our game. No doubt about it,” Pippen said in 2018 on ESPN.

“I’m always asked to compare him to LeBron. I try to make the best of it. But really the comparison shouldn’t ever be made. They both play two different positions. The way LeBron James plays, Michael Jordan was never asked to play that way because I took that away from him. I was the point forward. I was the facilitator. Michael Jordan was a scorer. He was a defender. He played the game as complete as LeBron James did when he needed to. But he was asked to score the basketball and that’s what he was great at.

“And there’s no game that I would ever play in and pick LeBron James over Michael Jordan. Not if I’m trying to win. I’m not going to give up my teammate who I won six championships with and go and start fishing in a pond thinking I’m going to catch a bigger and better fish.”

Exactly. Who did Scottie choose to present him into the HOF?

[RogueBorg]

Exactly. Who did Scottie choose to present him into the HOF?

Yup

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a5/10/94/a51094636ff0cc94964193b34816f8bb.jpg

Scottie didn't have a problem with Jordan at his induction ceremony in 2010. Pip wanted MJ to unretire in 1995, and in 2018 still had no problem with anything.

His problems all stem from the Last Dance.

[Phoenix]

Yup

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a5/10/94/a51094636ff0cc94964193b34816f8bb.jpg

Scottie didn't have a problem with Jordan at his induction ceremony in 2010. Pip wanted MJ to unretire in 1995, and in 2018 still had no problem with anything.

His problems all stem from the Last Dance.

The things he's saying though are clearly deep-rooted sentiments that he was resolved to keep in the recesses of his mind until the aforementioned docu-series came out.

[97 bulls]

Yup

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a5/10/94/a51094636ff0cc94964193b34816f8bb.jpg

Scottie didn't have a problem with Jordan at his induction ceremony in 2010. Pip wanted MJ to unretire in 1995, and in 2018 still had no problem with anything.

His problems all stem from the Last Dance.

Pippen even said in that interview on Stacey Kings show that Jordan is in his top 5 lineup. People get emotional when Pippen says that Lebron James is the greatest STATISTICAL player ever. But that's true. It don't mean he's better than Jordan. Jordan was never the greatest statistical player ever. Wilt was.

It seems like Pippens fight needs to be more with the media and the fans, but he's firing his guns at Jordan.

I still feel Jordan was wrong to call Pippen selfish under the circumstances. From reading Pippens' book, he had been being screwed over the Bulls organization since he got there. People always allude to Pippen, only averaging 7ppg as a rookie, but don't take into consideration that he had back trouble as a rookie. The Bulls management's and their doctors said there wasn't anything major, and he had to play through it. But he got a second opinion in the offseason and found out that he needed surgery. Many Bulls fans don't care about what Pippen went through during his career. His father died during the playoffs. The Pistons beat him up too. The Bulls didn't look out for him from the moment he got there. He was disrespected with the Kukoc situation. He was stabbed in the back by the organization when the reward the management had for him after playing on a foot that needed to be repaired was to try to trade him. And he took the high road every time until the end of 97. But Pippen is wrong? And Jordan calls him selfish? It's like Pippen is supposed to be a robot.

[97 bulls]

Scottie is just insecure, he can't take criticism, everything has to be on his terms or he explodes on people and starts a feud (from Jordan to Barkley to Phil Jackson to Bulls ownership, etc. etc. etc.).

The documentary highlighted less than flattering things about Jordan (gambler, not the happy go lucky leader but a vicious task master that was far from the teddy bear image in TV commercials), Rodman (partyholic, immature, bailed on the team to go off and do god knows what) ... but it's only Pippen who blows a fuse when legitimate things are included like the incident where he would not go into a game because he was jealous of Kukoc or he refused to get surgery in the summer to spite the Bulls and then demanded a trade out.

This guy cries all day about "not getting enough credit", when the fact is he probably is more well known today than a lot of players he's frankly not as good as. The only players from the 90s other than Jordan who are more well known today from that era are Barkley and Shaq and even that is basically only because they are on TNT on a famous TV show, not even because of their careers per se at this point.

Pippen guy gets way more attention than he frankly deserves. Nobody gives a shit about Hakeem Olajuwon or Patrick Ewing or David Robinson these days even though these players were far better player's than Scottie Pippen. Are they getting even 15 minutes of time on Netflix? The show is for casual viewers too, not just basketball diehards, no one wants to watch 2 full Pippen episodes, like get over yourself buddy. Is James Worthy swearing and feuding with Magic and Kareem because he never gets anywhere near as much attention in Lakers docs' and shows?

It is what it is. Scottie is dumb enough and petty enough to let a TV show on Netflix destroy the relationships he had on the Bulls because he was upset a TV show brought up things he actually did do. Guess they won't be having a team reunion any time soon or maybe Scottie just won't be there. Even Kobe/Shaq were smart enough to reconcile, don't bet on Pippen ever doing it. I don't think this will ever be mended, the way Pippen is and add on top of it his ex-wife dating Jordan's son, and it's pretty much over. That Bulls team is done, I don't think they will ever get over this.

This is exactly what I'm talking about the ignorance in this post knows no bounds. But you're a person that's bashed Scottie Pippen since at least June of 2006.

[97 bulls]

Does this look someone who has a problem with anything Jordan is doing or has done at that time?

https://media0.giphy.com/media/JO9l9C4I21g4M/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952qeswdp06lvovgf5fm861306153qjg rdrb24k6g9u&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

“Michael Jordan was the greatest to ever put on shoes and play in our game. No doubt about it,” Pippen said in 2018 on ESPN.

“I’m always asked to compare him to LeBron. I try to make the best of it. But really the comparison shouldn’t ever be made. They both play two different positions. The way LeBron James plays, Michael Jordan was never asked to play that way because I took that away from him. I was the point forward. I was the facilitator. Michael Jordan was a scorer. He was a defender. He played the game as complete as LeBron James did when he needed to. But he was asked to score the basketball and that’s what he was great at.

“And there’s no game that I would ever play in and pick LeBron James over Michael Jordan. Not if I’m trying to win. I’m not going to give up my teammate who I won six championships with and go and start fishing in a pond thinking I’m going to catch a bigger and better fish.”

Pippen has never been jealous of MJ. I think Pippen feels Jordan has gotten too much credit for winning 6 championships as opposed to the team.

[Baller789]

Pippen has never been jealous of MJ. I think Pippen feels Jordan has gotten too much credit for winning 6 championships as opposed to the team.

Huh?

[Soundwave]

This is exactly what I'm talking about the ignorance in this post knows no bounds. But you're a person that's bashed Scottie Pippen since at least June of 2006.

Address the points dude, you don't want to do that because you know you don't really have anything to say against that.

Saying someone made a selfish decision one time is not the same as saying they're a selfish person either.

The Last Dance also casts Rodman as immature/a loose canon based on actions he took ... and damn right he was.

Dennis isn't going to cry about that. He knows he did that shit.

Michael Jordan has pretty much always very willing to always compliment Scottie, to always make sure he's given him praise over the last 20 years.

Pippen is the one that cannot have things like the Kukoc incident or the fact that he did refuse to get surgery on his foot and missed half a season for no real great reason other than spite brought up. You can't mention that those things happened without him losing it.

That's his problem. Jordan did nothing wrong here, the Netflix people did nothing wrong. Scottie is an idiot for not being able to just say "yeah, I did that stuff, maybe I'd do it differently now, but we moved on from those moments and were able to win as a team". Jordan and Rodman both admitted their flaws in The Last Dance, but Scottie still saying he'd do the same thing over again (lol) ... tells you really all you need to know, this dude is too stubborn to ever admit he made a mistake ever.

The Bulls are done, Scottie's burned bridges with Jordan and Phil by trying to blame them for his own actions ("well clearly me not going into a game is because Phil is racist ... OK Scottie, never your fault, huh?), Pippen loosing his shit over a Netflix show made for basketball casuals.

[RogueBorg]

From reading Pippens' book, he had been being screwed over the Bulls organization since he got there.

Bullshit, I was living up there when Pippen signed his long term deal, it was common knowledge it was a bad signing. Everyone knew him signing the long term deal for less money per year wasn't the smartest thing to do. But that's what HE wanted. So don't tell me the Bulls screwed him, Pippen screwed himself. Larry Johnson literally signed an $84 million deal like a year later. He ain't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. Tell me again how smart it is to buy a plane that can't fly.

Almost everybody involved knew this was a bad contract. Pippen's team of agents advised him against taking the deal, according to The Undefeated's Marc Spears. Reinsdorf claimed to have told him that the deal was too long and that he would later regret it, which would not have been a possibility under modern rules that allow players to be under contract for no more than six years at a time.

Pippen accepted the contract despite these warnings because his family needed the money and he was not willing to risk losing such a relatively lucrative deal because of an injury.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/scottie-pippen-contract-explained-how-the-bulls-managed-to-sign-hall-of-famer-for-pennies-on-the-dollar/#:~:text=Pippen%27s%20team%20of%20agents%20advised %20him%20against%20taking,no%20more%20than%20six%2 0years%20at%20a%20time.

[97 bulls]

Address the points dude, you don't want to do that because you know you don't really have anything to say against that.

I have addressed the points bro. Read the discord between Micku and me. But I'll address you directly.


Saying someone made a selfish decision one time is not the same as saying they're a selfish person either.
I dont think its that simple. Its the circumstances that Jordan came to call Pippen selfish. Jordan doesn't seem to understand the situation. The Bulls organization took the stance that they werent obligated to redo Pippens contract. So Pippen rightfully so, took the stance that he didnt have to heal on his own time. He was no more obligated to rehab on his own time than the Bulls were obligated to redo his contract. Turn about is fair play.


The Last Dance also casts Rodman as immature/a loose canon based on actions he took ... and damn right he was.

Dennis isn't going to cry about that. He knows he did that shit.
Rodman is a differnt kind of dude. I mean, he married himself for goodness sake.


Michael Jordan has pretty much always very willing to always compliment Scottie, to always make sure he's given him praise over the last 20 years.
So has Pippen to Jordan.


Pippen is the one that cannot have things like the Kukoc incident or the fact that he did refuse to get surgery on his foot and missed half a season for no real great reason other than spite brought up. You can't mention that those things happened without him losing it.
Pippen doesn't need a reason. He's under no legal obligation to do nothing more than perform his duties as a basketball player on company. Surgery and rehab are included in that as well. I think you Bulls hater like to weaponize that Pippen/Kukoc incident. Pip got over it, Jackson got over it, the teammates got over it. If he Pippen was so bent out of shape about the 1.8 seconds situation, he could've decided to not participate right?


That's his problem. Jordan did nothing wrong here, the Netflix people did nothing wrong. Scottie is an idiot for not being able to just say "yeah, I did that stuff, maybe I'd do it differently now, but we moved on from those moments and were able to win as a team". Jordan and Rodman both admitted their flaws in The Last Dance, but Scottie still saying he'd do the same thing over again (lol) ... tells you really all you need to know, this dude is too stubborn to ever admit he made a mistake ever.

The Bulls are done, Scottie's burned bridges with Jordan and Phil by trying to blame them for his own actions ("well clearly me not going into a game is because Phil is racist ... OK Scottie, never your fault, huh?), Pippen loosing his shit over a Netflix show made for basketball casuals.

That's your take. I disagree.

[Da_Realist]

Somebody explain to me how The Last Dance can talk about Pippen's 93-94 season without talking about his refusal to re-enter the game, which happened during the playoffs of the same year.

Also explain to me how The Last Dance could document a season where Pippen missed most of the games without talking about why he was out in the first place. If the documentary skates over it, the people that were watching at the time and remember what happened would call bullsh*t. Pippen delaying his surgery is documented in a number of books on the Bulls. How could the documentary leave that and Pippen's anger over his contract out when it was public knowledge? Pippen publicly stated over and over again that he would never return to the Bulls while he was out during the 97-98 season. How could the documentary leave that out?

[97 bulls]

Bullshit, I was living up there when Pippen signed his long term deal, it was common knowledge it was a bad signing. Everyone knew him signing the long term deal for less money per year wasn't the smartest thing to do. But that's what HE wanted. So don't tell me the Bulls screwed him, Pippen screwed himself. Larry Johnson literally signed an $84 million deal like a year later. He ain't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. Tell me again how smart it is to buy a plane that can't fly.

Almost everybody involved knew this was a bad contract. Pippen's team of agents advised him against taking the deal, according to The Undefeated's Marc Spears. Reinsdorf claimed to have told him that the deal was too long and that he would later regret it, which would not have been a possibility under modern rules that allow players to be under contract for no more than six years at a time.

Pippen accepted the contract despite these warnings because his family needed the money and he was not willing to risk losing such a relatively lucrative deal because of an injury.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/scottie-pippen-contract-explained-how-the-bulls-managed-to-sign-hall-of-famer-for-pennies-on-the-dollar/#:~:text=Pippen%27s%20team%20of%20agents%20advised %20him%20against%20taking,no%20more%20than%20six%2 0years%20at%20a%20time.

I'm not saying he was screwd over just solely on the contract. And who is everybody? Were you in the negotiations? This is all Monday morning quarterbacking. Again, I've told Micku, WhiteKyrie, Soundwave, and now you. I'm not arguing that the Bulls were wrong for allowing Pippen to sign the deal. I'm saying Jordan was wrong for calling Pip selfish for opting not to go above and beyond for an organization that never showed they were gonna go above and beyond for him. Then, I listed the myriad of reasons as to why I feel the Bulls and many of the fans never really appreciated Scottie Pippen. But I'll listen them again

Bulls fans call him a scrub for only averaging 7ppg in his rookie season. Totally omitting thr fact that he was playing with an injured back that had to have surgery.

The organization, screwed him over when their doctors said there was nothing wrong with him and to keep playing. And it was only when he sought a second opinion from an outside doctor that he found out he need back surgery.

Pippen was never respected by the fans. His father died two or 3 weeks before that game 7 against the Pistons and he had that migraine. He had a bad game (but played over 40 minutes) and people called him soft. I'd be in agreement with the fans if he started touting he had a migraine AFTER HE HAD THE BAD GAME.

Nobody ever acknowledges that Pippen got his ass kicked by the Pistons just like Jordan did. In fact, I think Pippen got it worse.

The way Krause did him with regards to Kukoc was messed up. But Pippen took the high road and actually took Kukoc under his wing and mentored him.

He was grossly under paid.

He played the NBA Finals on a bum foot that needed surgery and as a reward, he hears his name in trade rumors. A week after winning the Championship. And being an integral part of 4 other Championships?

Then, everyone wants Pip to overlook all the disrespect and have surgery and rehab for an organization and fans that never really appreciated him? I'd say "F" yall too.

[97 bulls]

Somebody explain to me how The Last Dance can talk about Pippen's 93-94 season without talking about his refusal to re-enter the game, which happened during the playoffs of the same year.

Also explain to me how The Last Dance could document a season where Pippen missed most of the games without talking about why he was out in the first place. If the documentary skates over it, the people that were watching at the time and remember what happened would call bullsh*t. Pippen delaying his surgery is documented in a number of books on the Bulls. How could the documentary leave that and Pippen's anger over his contract out when it was public knowledge? Pippen publicly stated over and over again that he would never return to the Bulls while he was out during the 97-98 season. How could the documentary leave that out?

Who said anything should've been left out? I know Grant said if the Last Dance was supposed to chronicle Jordans exploits, then why bring up 94 since he wasnt on the team. The cognitive dissonance is unreal. If Pippen was against the Last Dance talking about the 1.8 seconds, why comment on it when he was interviewed? I swear you guys are unreasonable.

But I'll tell you this, all of Pippens low points were definitely acknowledged, but very few of his high points. Or the teams for that matter. But let me guess, it was Jordan's documentary, right?

[Da_Realist]

Who said anything should've been left out? I know Grant said if the Last Dance was supposed to chronicle Jordans exploits, then why bring up 94 since he wasnt on the team. The cognitive dissonance is unreal. If Pippen was against the Last Dance talking about the 1.8 seconds, why comment on it when he was interviewed? I swear you guys are unreasonable.

But I'll tell you this, all of Pippens low points were definitely acknowledged, but very few of his high points. Or the teams for that matter. But let me guess, it was Jordan's documentary, right?

That's what I don't understand. What is the problem? If the documentary had left out Pippen's stellar 93-94 season and the Bulls winning 55 games without MJ, the outcry would be 10 times worse. If the regular season is brought up, the playoffs also need to be brought up. If that season is NOT brought up, both you and Pippen would be crying 10 times worse than you are now.

[Airupthere]

Who said anything should've been left out? I know Grant said if the Last Dance was supposed to chronicle Jordans exploits, then why bring up 94 since he wasnt on the team. The cognitive dissonance is unreal. If Pippen was against the Last Dance talking about the 1.8 seconds, why comment on it when he was interviewed? I swear you guys are unreasonable.

But I'll tell you this, all of Pippens low points were definitely acknowledged, but very few of his high points. Or the teams for that matter. But let me guess, it was Jordan's documentary, right?

Not one person has agreed with you in the same intensity as you sympathize with Pippen. Maybe that should be a hint as to who is being unreasonable.

[97 bulls]

That's what I don't understand. What is the problem? If the documentary had left out Pippen's stellar 93-94 season and the Bulls winning 55 games without MJ, the outcry would be 10 times worse. If the regular season is brought up, the playoffs also need to be brought up. If that season is NOT brought up, both you and Pippen would be crying 10 times worse than you are now.

Nope. I'm not unreasonable like you Jordanites. Again, put aside your feelings. If Pippen truly had an issue with the 1.8 seconds thing being brought up, do you think he would've answered questions as to what he was thinking as to the events at that moment in time? He could've easily said he didn't want to participate if the 1.8 seconds situation was gonna be brought up. It's not like he was getting paid. The only person that got Paid for the Last Dance was Jordan.

Grant mentioned it only because the person he was talking to said the Documentary was more about Jordan than the team. That's when Grant stated something along the lines that if it was about Jordan, why bring up 94 since he wasn't there?

[97 bulls]

Not one person has agreed with you in the same intensity as you sympathize with Pippen. Maybe that should be a hint as to who is being unreasonable.

Lol. I'm having a conversation with Jordanites. That's why. Like with the contract/surgery situation. Let's put it in an way us commoners could understand.

Let's say you ask your boss for a day off. You really need it for some emergency and your boss says no. What are the chances of you working on your day off if he calls you? Now watch you try to dance around this scenario and create your own. And the answer that one.

Most people would understand that since your boss won't go the extra mile for you why would you go the extra mile? It seems like when it comes to Pippen, all logic gets thrown out the window.

Like when Pippen said that Jordan was a horrible player. And everyone went up in arms and got thier panties in a bunch. When the fact is, Pippen was talking about being a team player. Or when Pippen said Lebron James is the best STATISTICAL PLAYER EVER. Jordanites say he said James is better than Jordan. They say Pippen is jealous of Jordan and has always been. Even though, in that same interview, Pippen put Jordan in his alltime starting 5. They totally omit that Pippen has praised Jordan just as much as Jordan has praised Pippen.

[Da_Realist]

Nope. I'm not unreasonable like you Jordanites. Again, put aside your feelings. If Pippen truly had an issue with the 1.8 seconds thing being brought up, do you think he would've answered questions as to what he was thinking as to the events at that moment in time? He could've easily said he didn't want to participate if the 1.8 seconds situation was gonna be brought up. It's not like he was getting paid. The only person that got Paid for the Last Dance was Jordan.

Grant mentioned it only because the person he was talking to said the Documentary was more about Jordan than the team. That's when Grant stated something along the lines that if it was about Jordan, why bring up 94 since he wasn't there?

You said Pippen's highlights weren't talked about enough but only his low points. Did it talk about Pippen's rise from Arkansas to the NBA? Did it talk about Pippen's defense? Did it talk about Pippen being a huge factor in beating the Pistons in 91? Did it talk about Pippen's defense on Magic in the Finals? Did it talk about Pippen's 94 season? All the accolades from that season? Did it highlight MJ's appreciation for Pippen?

I believe the answer is yes to all those questions. And probably a few other things I can't remember off the top of my head. The only things I keep hearing about is the doc shouldn't have talked about Pip's refusal to re-enter a playoff game and Pip's contract struggles which led to him delaying surgery during the 98 season which forced the Bulls to play a large part of the season without him. My question is: how could the doc not talk about these things if both were public knowledge without losing credibility?

And now you bring up an interesting point. Why is Pippen salty when he himself talked about those things freely? What exactly is the problem? That MJ called Pip's decision to delay surgery and miss most of the 98 season selfish? It was. Pip mad that he said it? Is that it?

[97 bulls]

You said Pippen's highlights weren't talked about but only his low points. Did it talk about Pippen's rise from Arkansas to the NBA?
That's not a highlight, that's his backstory.


Did it talk about Pippen's defense?
That's a highlight? Seems to me that goes without saying it's like simply saying Jordan was a great scorer. Lol


Did it talk about Pippen being a huge factor in beating the Pistons in 91? Did it talk about Pippen's defense on Magic in the Finals?
Lol. All that's was covered under 91.


Did it talk about Pippen's 94 season? All the accolades from that season?
No. Jordan talked about how Pippen got to see how it was to be the face of the franchise. Never mentioned they won 55 games. Never mentioned the Hue Hollins call. I wonder why?


Did it highlight MJ's appreciation for Pippen?
Yes.


I believe the answer is yes to all those questions. And probably a few other things I can't remember off the top of my head. The only things I keep hearing about is the doc shouldn't have talked about Pip's refusal to re-enter a playoff game and Pip's contract struggles which led to him delaying surgery during the 98 season which forced the Bulls to play a large part of the season without him. My question is: how could the doc not talk about these things if both were public knowledge without losing credibility?

And now you bring up an interesting point. Why is Pippen salty when he himself talked about those things freely? What exactly is the problem? That MJ called Pip's decision to delay surgery and miss most of the 98 season selfish? It was. Pip mad that he said it? Is that it?

Again, for the 3rd time. NOBODY IS SAYING THAT PIPPEN SITTING OUT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEE. DISCUSSED. YOURE MAKING THAT UP. Like I told you, if Pippen didn't want it brought up, why discuss it? You can't answer that because you're being sensitive.

[Da_Realist]

Lol. I'm having a conversation with Jordanites. That's why. Like with the contract/surgery situation. Let's put it in an way us commoners could understand.

Let's say you ask your boss for a day off. You really need it for some emergency and your boss says no. What are the chances of you working on your day off if he calls you? Now watch you try to dance around this scenario and create your own. And the answer that one.

Most people would understand that since your boss won't go the extra mile for you why would you go the extra mile? It seems like when it comes to Pippen, all logic gets thrown out the window.

Like when Pippen said that Jordan was a horrible player. And everyone went up in arms and got thier panties in a bunch. When the fact is, Pippen was talking about being a team player. Or when Pippen said Lebron James is the best STATISTICAL PLAYER EVER. Jordanites say he said James is better than Jordan. They say Pippen is jealous of Jordan and has always been. Even though, in that same interview, Pippen put Jordan in his alltime starting 5. They totally omit that Pippen has praised Jordan just as much as Jordan has praised Pippen.

It is the player's responsibility to be ready to play for 82 regular season games plus the playoffs. It is the player's responsibility to be in shape and ready to give all his effort so that he can contribute to the team. The Bulls paid Pippen to make sure he was as ready as possible for the regular season. That includes the offseason. It is not true that a player is being true to his obligations as a player and especially a leader like Pippen to be so cavalier about his offseason so that he purposely made himself unavailable when the team needed him the most.

Imagine a student telling a teacher he will only study during class time. That would never fly. It is the student's responsibility to be prepared for the exams. That includes paying attention in class and study outside of class. Pippen was regarded as a leader but he tried to punish the Bulls by making sure he was not prepared to give his all during the season. That was selfish.

It is also selfish to sign a contract and expect the other party to throw it away and give the player whatever he wants. It could happen. And sometimes it does happen. But technically, an honorable man stands by his oath. Whining, crying and threatening not to play by the terms he himself signed is not a sign of a mature, honorable man.

[97 bulls]

It is the player's responsibility to be ready to play for 82 regular season games plus the playoffs. It is the player's responsibility to be in shape and ready to give all his effort so that he can contribute to the team. The Bulls paid Pippen to make sure he was as ready as possible for the regular season. That includes the offseason. It is not true that a player is being true to his obligations as a player and especially a leader like Pippen to be so cavalier about his offseason so that he purposely made himself unavailable when the team needed him the most.
Thats not true. Player's are not obligated to practice in or have surgery in the offseason. That's why it's called "OFFSEASON". If what you were saying was true, the Bulls could've fined Pippen. But this right here is a classic case of spirit of the law vs the letter of the law.
With Pippen, you expect it to be understood that the letter of the needs to be followed. But with the Organization? It's the spirit of the law.


Imagine a student telling a teacher he will only study during class time. That would never fly. It is the student's responsibility to be prepared for the exams. That includes paying attention in class and study outside of class. Pippen was regarded as a leader but he tried to punish the Bulls by making sure he was not prepared to give his all during the season. That was selfish.
Bad analogy. A teacher cant make a student study at home. Thats on the student. You cant give a student a failing grade because theh didn't study. You can give them a failing grade because they didn't pass the test.


It is also selfish to sign a contract and expect the other party to throw it away and give the player whatever he wants. It could happen. And sometimes it does happen. But technically, an honorable man stands by his oath. Whining, crying and threatening not to play by the terms he himself signed is not a sign of a mature, honorable man.
Pippen fulfilled his contractual obligations with the Bulls bro.

[Micku]

Address the points dude, you don't want to do that because you know you don't really have anything to say against that.

Saying someone made a selfish decision one time is not the same as saying they're a selfish person either.

The Last Dance also casts Rodman as immature/a loose canon based on actions he took ... and damn right he was.

Dennis isn't going to cry about that. He knows he did that shit.

Michael Jordan has pretty much always very willing to always compliment Scottie, to always make sure he's given him praise over the last 20 years.

Pippen is the one that cannot have things like the Kukoc incident or the fact that he did refuse to get surgery on his foot and missed half a season for no real great reason other than spite brought up. You can't mention that those things happened without him losing it.

That's his problem. Jordan did nothing wrong here, the Netflix people did nothing wrong. Scottie is an idiot for not being able to just say "yeah, I did that stuff, maybe I'd do it differently now, but we moved on from those moments and were able to win as a team". Jordan and Rodman both admitted their flaws in The Last Dance, but Scottie still saying he'd do the same thing over again (lol) ... tells you really all you need to know, this dude is too stubborn to ever admit he made a mistake ever.

The Bulls are done, Scottie's burned bridges with Jordan and Phil by trying to blame them for his own actions ("well clearly me not going into a game is because Phil is racist ... OK Scottie, never your fault, huh?), Pippen loosing his shit over a Netflix show made for basketball casuals.

Yeah man. It's really unfortunate that he burned the bridges. But from his standpoint, it was his final straw. I personally don't get it and I think he is going by it the wrong way.

Like you said, it talked about MJ dirty laundry. Rodman laundry. Even talk about Phil when he tried to get the coaching gig, and he wasn't presentable for the part. Pippen got mad over it.

I think 97 Bulls have a point about seeing it from Pippen perspective. Pippen felt disrespected after everything he did for the team. His statements that the documentary didn't really talk about how good the rest of the team was is echo'd by some of MJ's teammates. Even Ron Harper, who liked the documentary, felt like it didn't talk about the team enough. And I think Pippen's right on that. From the coaching staff and to the players on the team. They proved that in 94. Hell, if you go deeper, they prove that with (some) advanced plus/minus stats. There are other plus/minus stats that say otherwise, but you could also tell that the Bulls improved as a team. You are right that the documentary is meant for casuals. They definitely didn't talk straight-up b-ball tactics and schemes. I don't really remember anything it discussed that wasn't already public. But it did show some scenes that we had never seen before with amazing production.

My issue with Pippen is how he is going about it. He is angrier than any teammate aside from maybe Grant. And Grant is pissed off at the idea of him being a snitch than him getting credit. And like I'm sure all of you watch other b-ball documentaries, this documentary really goes the extra level on giving Pippen, Rodman, and etc their own episodes. But they talk about the good and the bad. If you watch any documentary about the showtime Lakers, they hardly talk about Norm Nixon at the beginning of their years. They don't talk about Jamaal Wilkes. They always give Magic the spotlight, even over Kareem who was the best player in the first half of the 80s.

Same thing with the Celtics in the 80s. Cedric Maxwell won FMVP, yet the docs just talk about Bird mostly. Of course, the stars are going to get talked about more.

Ultimately, I feel Pippen is doing this in a bad way. While trying to tell his side of the story, he is also not really connecting with a lot of fans at this time judging from the reactions in various mediums, including the comments of this thread. And unlike 97 Bulls, I feel like Pippen isn't all the way good guy in this situation either. He made mistakes as well along the way. But it's okay, we're all human. Pippen did say that time heal all wounds, but he is upset over things that happen 30 years ago and not getting enough credit.

One hand, you can say it's a lot of passion and pride over what he did. I remember Dr. J said one time, a player wouldn't talk to him for decades because he dunked on him in a very nasty way. Isiah Thomas and Magic didn't patch things up for 20 years. Bill Russell and Wilt had a feud for 30 years over the 1969 finals. Kareem and Wilt had a feud for decades. MJ is still upset over Isiah and he cut off his friendship with Barkley over something he said on TV. This shit happens. But one hand, as Barkley said, life is bigger than basketball. As a person, you have to take the good and bad, especially as a celebrity.

Most nba players won't realize this until way later in life when they are older. It's a shame that this happened with Pippen, MJ and Phil. We know MJ and Pippen aren't buddies or anything, but hopefully, they can reconnect in the future.

[kawhileonard2]

It is the player's responsibility to be ready to play for 82 regular season games plus the playoffs. It is the player's responsibility to be in shape and ready to give all his effort so that he can contribute to the team. The Bulls paid Pippen to make sure he was as ready as possible for the regular season. That includes the offseason. It is not true that a player is being true to his obligations as a player and especially a leader like Pippen to be so cavalier about his offseason so that he purposely made himself unavailable when the team needed him the most.

Imagine a student telling a teacher he will only study during class time. That would never fly. It is the student's responsibility to be prepared for the exams. That includes paying attention in class and study outside of class. Pippen was regarded as a leader but he tried to punish the Bulls by making sure he was not prepared to give his all during the season. That was selfish.

It is also selfish to sign a contract and expect the other party to throw it away and give the player whatever he wants. It could happen. And sometimes it does happen. But technically, an honorable man stands by his oath. Whining, crying and threatening not to play by the terms he himself signed is not a sign of a mature, honorable man.

Excellent post! This is totally accurate!

[Soundwave]

The funny thing about Scottie's bullshit about Phil Jackson is he convienantly leaves out that Pippen DID get the ball in 17 seconds left and a chance to go iso and finish the Knicks off that same very game ... and what does he do? Put up a HORRENDOUS shot that was not even close to going in, lol.

No one mentions that, including Scottie. Phil is too classy to say "we did run a play for Pip but he stank the damn joint up so we went with Kukoc". Go to 1:25 into the video:


https://youtu.be/jEi9uJVIwOg?t=93

Not the greatest quality, but look at the steaming turd that Pippen puts up. Phil DID give him his chance to be Jordan and look at that bullsh*t. How can you as a head coach run a play back for a player that does that? lol. Pippen was a terrible clutch shot maker, Phil 100% made the right call to not go back to Pippen with this nonsense, Kukoc is a better clutch shot maker.

That's not racism Scottie. It's called you got a play drawn up for you to be a clutch shot maker and got a 1 on 1 ISO and you almost missed the entire damn backboard let alone rim.

[Soundwave]

Pippen's a dummy anyway, he was OK with talking about the 1.8 seconds thing, but then realized when he watched the documentary that it made him look stupid to sit there and say he would still do it the same way all over again (lol).

That's ON SCOTTIE though. This dude cannot take responsibility for anything without having to blame other people for his bullshit.

Dude, you had a chance on camera to say "well I'd do it differently now" and you still can't say that almost 20 years later. You're a stubborn idiot, that's all there is to it.

Scottie isn't mad about not getting respect, he's mad because a Netflix doc made for casual basketball fans brought up things to a new generation that made him look bad in some ways and he wasn't prepared for that. He thought it was just going to be a fluff piece when he agreed to do it.

But get over yourself. Like really, you're gonna let a Netflix show burn the bridges to a 6 time championship dynasty? Bravo Pippen.

There's nothing that offensive about the doc at all. It's not some outrageous piece of content that's hyper sensationalized. It's pretty much fairly accurate it even goes out of its way to point out Jordan and Rodman had many flaws too. Yes it's centered around Jordan, no shit, people want to watch/hear about Jordan, there's nothing wrong with that either.

[RogueBorg]

And who is everybody? Were you in the negotiations? This is all Monday morning quarterbacking.

It is not Monday Morning quarterbacking, Reinsdorf and Pippen's own people told him not to sign it before he signed it. But he wanted it. Everyone knows this except you for some reason.

[RogueBorg]

. But let me guess, it was Jordan's documentary, right?

I guessed you missed the part in episode 1 where Jordan said, "There is no Michael Jordan without Scottie Pippen."

[theman93]

That's not a highlight, that's his backstory.


That's a highlight? Seems to me that goes without saying it's like simply saying Jordan was a great scorer. Lol


Lol. All that's was covered under 91.


No. Jordan talked about how Pippen got to see how it was to be the face of the franchise. Never mentioned they won 55 games. Never mentioned the Hue Hollins call. I wonder why?


Yes.



Again, for the 3rd time. NOBODY IS SAYING THAT PIPPEN SITTING OUT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEE. DISCUSSED. YOURE MAKING THAT UP. Like I told you, if Pippen didn't want it brought up, why discuss it? You can't answer that because you're being sensitive.

Yeah but you're acting like Pippen was strictly bashed and that's that. Pippen's praise was sung multiple times as pointed out by Da_Realist and others. Pippen's acting sensitive little bitch and literally everyone knows it lol

[Airupthere]

Yeah but you're acting like Pippen was strictly bashed and that's that. Pippen's praise was sung multiple times as pointed out by Da_Realist and others. Pippen's acting sensitive little bitch and literally everyone knows it lol

Aside from 3ball, has their been serious bashing of Pippen around here and on media generally? The only one I see disrespecting and making fun of Pippen on camera straight up is Zeke. Maybe a few players back in the day but that's part of it.

If anything, Pippen even has found a following in the branstans. I've always been a fan of those Bulls line ups and that largely includes Pippen.

[Indian guy]

This entire thing is the definition of making something out of nothing.

If you have seen the documentary, then you know it goes out of its way to gush about how invaluable Pippen was to the dynasty. With MJ being his biggest cheerleader. Of course, the documentary covers most major events concerning the Bulls between 1990-1998, so naturally it delves into Pippen's migraine, him sitting out in '94 and the delayed surgery + trade request in 1998. But the theme of even those events is to show how Pippen bounced back from those setbacks, with his ex-teammates constantly propping him up. It's not critical of him at all. Pippen's shown in a positive light even when he was being an ass.

There's absolutely nothing about The Last Dance that should be offensive to Pippen. The fact that he did get offended is more a reflection of his insecurities than anything about the documentary itself.

[Overdrive]

Lol. I'm having a conversation with Jordanites. That's why. Like with the contract/surgery situation. Let's put it in an way us commoners could understand.

Let's say you ask your boss for a day off. You really need it for some emergency and your boss says no. What are the chances of you working on your day off if he calls you? Now watch you try to dance around this scenario and create your own. And the answer that one.

Most people would understand that since your boss won't go the extra mile for you why would you go the extra mile? It seems like when it comes to Pippen, all logic gets thrown out the window.

Like when Pippen said that Jordan was a horrible player. And everyone went up in arms and got thier panties in a bunch. When the fact is, Pippen was talking about being a team player. Or when Pippen said Lebron James is the best STATISTICAL PLAYER EVER. Jordanites say he said James is better than Jordan. They say Pippen is jealous of Jordan and has always been. Even though, in that same interview, Pippen put Jordan in his alltime starting 5. They totally omit that Pippen has praised Jordan just as much as Jordan has praised Pippen.

I don't know how your employee/worker rights are, but they're pretty strict here. Almost any case of laying off can be fought if you give the wrong reasons, but if you tell your boss you scheduled a medical procedure so you miss as much company time as possible your contract can and will be voided.

[97 bulls]

The funny thing about Scottie's bullshit about Phil Jackson is he convienantly leaves out that Pippen DID get the ball in 17 seconds left and a chance to go iso and finish the Knicks off that same very game ... and what does he do? Put up a HORRENDOUS shot that was not even close to going in, lol.

No one mentions that, including Scottie. Phil is too classy to say "we did run a play for Pip but he stank the damn joint up so we went with Kukoc". Go to 1:25 into the video:


https://youtu.be/jEi9uJVIwOg?t=93

Not the greatest quality, but look at the steaming turd that Pippen puts up. Phil DID give him his chance to be Jordan and look at that bullsh*t. How can you as a head coach run a play back for a player that does that? lol. Pippen was a terrible clutch shot maker, Phil 100% made the right call to not go back to Pippen with this nonsense, Kukoc is a better clutch shot maker.

That's not racism Scottie. It's called you got a play drawn up for you to be a clutch shot maker and got a 1 on 1 ISO and you almost missed the entire damn backboard let alone rim.

The "steaming turd"? Look at that play again. Pippen called for a clearout on the right side. Kerr leaves, but Kukoc stayed. That forced Pippen in to bad shot.

[97 bulls]

I don't know how your employee/worker rights are, but they're pretty strict here. Almost any case of laying off can be fought if you give the wrong reasons, but if you tell your boss you scheduled a medical procedure so you miss as much company time as possible your contract can and will be voided.

Again, Scottie Pippen was under no legal obligation to have surgery or rehab during the offseson. I'll ask you the same question. Why didn't the Bulls fine him? The off season is a players free time. You are free to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't go against your contractual agreement. He's no more obligated to do anything work related on his time off, than the Bulls were obligated to renegotiate his contract. The problem is you guys don't like Scottie Pippen. Lol. Or you don't like the fact that he's calling your God (Michael Jordan) out on his BS.

[97 bulls]

This entire thing is the definition of making something out of nothing.

If you have seen the documentary, then you know it goes out of its way to gush about how invaluable Pippen was to the dynasty. With MJ being his biggest cheerleader. Of course, the documentary covers most major events concerning the Bulls between 1990-1998, so naturally it delves into Pippen's migraine, him sitting out in '94 and the delayed surgery + trade request in 1998. But the theme of even those events is to show how Pippen bounced back from those setbacks, with his ex-teammates constantly propping him up. It's not critical of him at all. Pippen's shown in a positive light even when he was being an ass.

There's absolutely nothing about The Last Dance that should be offensive to Pippen. The fact that he did get offended is more a reflection of his insecurities than anything about the documentary itself.

Lol. Every member of the Bulls has said the Last Dance was a Jordan puff piece. Phil Jackson, Ron Harper, Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, you name the player. Granted, some were more vocal than others. But the point still stands.

Even in the episodes talking about specific players, it starts off showing a players strengths, then their weaknesses, and then how MJ saved them from themselves. Or how MJ overcame their transgressions. Lol.

[Overdrive]

Again, Scottie Pippen was under no legal obligation to have surgery or rehab during the offseson. I'll ask you the same question. Why didn't the Bulls fine him? The off season is a players free time. You are free to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't go against your contractual agreement. He's no more obligated to do anything work related on his time off, than the Bulls were obligated to renegotiate his contract. The problem is you guys don't like Scottie Pippen. Lol. Or you don't like the fact that he's calling your God (Michael Jordan) out on his BS.

I just corrected you on your bad analogy. Pippen was my fav Bull and idgaf about Michael Jordan. I didn't like him when he played, but I accept that he was better than anyone else I've seen so far, but tbh that doesn't mean much to me.

I just think Pippen is not doing himself any favour with his antics.

Aside from that I mostly argue with any stan no matter the player they stan. It's so weird to defend some grown dudes playing basketball to a point you get caught up writing essay after essay for 6 pages.

[97 bulls]

I just want to point out how unreasonable you Jordanites are. It's like you want Pippen to be a robot or something. The Bulls fcked Pippen over at every turn, and you guys expected him to take it. I know you guys read the laundry list of messe up stuff the Bulls did to him, but he's supposed to take the high road?



And the fans as well. I never understood the hate for Pippen with regards to the migraine game. So much that you guys idol Michael Jordan, when asked if he had a headache, and he had ten pills, and one of those pills could kill him if he took it, would he take the pill. He said "HOW BAD IS THE HEADACHE?" Lol. So you Jordan nut huggers, go hard in the paint on Pippen for PLAYING through a migraine headache, when your God is willing to risk his life to stop a headache. Lol

[97 bulls]

I just corrected you on your bad analogy. Pippen was my fav Bull and idgaf about Michael Jordan. I didn't like him when he played, but I accept that he was better than anyone else I've seen so far, but tbh that doesn't mean much to me.

I just think Pippen is not doing himself any favour with his antics.

Aside from that I mostly argue with any stan no matter the player they stan. It's so weird to defend some grown dudes playing basketball to a point you get caught up writing essay after essay for 6 pages.

What you did, was show that you don't know what you're talking about. I'll ask you for a second time. If Pippen was legally obligated to have surgery in the offseaon, WHY DIDNT THE BULLS FINE HIM FOR NOT HAVING THE SURGERY?????

[Micku]

This entire thing is the definition of making something out of nothing.

If you have seen the documentary, then you know it goes out of its way to gush about how invaluable Pippen was to the dynasty. With MJ being his biggest cheerleader. Of course, the documentary covers most major events concerning the Bulls between 1990-1998, so naturally it delves into Pippen's migraine, him sitting out in '94 and the delayed surgery + trade request in 1998. But the theme of even those events is to show how Pippen bounced back from those setbacks, with his ex-teammates constantly propping him up. It's not critical of him at all. Pippen's shown in a positive light even when he was being an ass.

There's absolutely nothing about The Last Dance that should be offensive to Pippen. The fact that he did get offended is more a reflection of his insecurities than anything about the documentary itself.

I think as 97 Bulls said, Pippen wasn't the only one who had complaints about it. Phil, Grant, Cartwright, Harper, and whoever all said that that was more MJ's side of the story. They all wished it would've given more credit to the team overall. The majority of them were chill about it, and some liked it. But Pippen was more mad than anyone and Grant was the second, but for different reasons.

And Pippen is lashing out and saying dumb things. Saying stuff like MJ wouldn't have been a superstar without him and such. While he may have meant, MJ wouldn't have been the GOAT without him. I feel like in terms of superstar, that's really insulting. It's really the other way around. Nobody would talk about Pippen if it weren't MJ. MJ brought ppl to the arena, the media loved him, and he expanded the game. The kids admired him. This isn't even including how great he was as a player. They were calling MJ the GOAT before Pippen was even an all-star. It was unreal and everyone knew about that talent. It's more like Pippen was lucky to play with MJ and Phil. If Portland didn't screw up and drafted Sam Bowie, they would've had MJ and Drexler. And we would have to see a Drexler book about how good he was in comparison to MJ or this thread would've been about Drexler instead of Pippen. lol

But yeah, it's the stuff of how Pippen say things that rubs ppl the wrong way. Like calling MJ a horrible player lol. But he did say MJ was a horrible teammate and all iso ball. Which was an exaggeration imo, but whatever. Same thing with Kobe criticism of him being a ballhog, but he was worse than MJ. It reminds me of how ppl criticize Jokic in a way. Saying he couldn't get done in the playoffs yet ignored his teammates were hurt and pretended that AD could guard Jokic. Same thing with MJ. Are we going to ignore the teammates? But Phil did manage to maximize the team's talent for sure and he helped MJ get better at balancing getting his team involved and taking the game over.

Pippen complaints about the doc are echo'd by his teammates. I thought the doc did things solid, but there were still things left out.

[FilmyCogTurner]

Pippens beef was with management and what makes it a selfish move is that he let his quarrel impact his teammates who had zero involvement with the details of his contract.

Take a stand against something he feels in unjust (again, another thing he's wrong about because it is a ****ing contract), sure I'm all for it but when others suffer because of it, then yes it is a selfish move.

[Gudo]

Didn't Kobe say something along the lines that if Shaq hadn't been so lazy, they'd both have more fkn championships? That is something Pippen would have taken offense for.

[97 bulls]

Pippens beef was with management and what makes it a selfish move is that he let his quarrel impact his teammates who had zero involvement with the details of his contract.

Take a stand against something he feels in unjust (again, another thing he's wrong about because it is a ****ing contract), sure I'm all for it but when others suffer because of it, then yes it is a selfish move.

I see your point with regards to how what he did and the effect it had on the team.

But again, he has to take care of him and his family first.

I don't know how you guys are missing this. His opting to not have surgery in the offense was NOT a breach of contract.

[SATAN]

This soap opera shit is embarrassing.

There's obviously more to it than any of us know. Who gives a shit. We don't know these people.

[97 bulls]

I think as 97 Bulls said, Pippen wasn't the only one who had complaints about it. Phil, Grant, Cartwright, Harper, and whoever all said that that was more MJ's side of the story. They all wished it would've given more credit to the team overall. The majority of them were chill about it, and some liked it. But Pippen was more mad than anyone and Grant was the second, but for different reasons.

And Pippen is lashing out and saying dumb things. Saying stuff like MJ wouldn't have been a superstar without him and such. While he may have meant, MJ wouldn't have been the GOAT without him. I feel like in terms of superstar, that's really insulting. It's really the other way around. Nobody would talk about Pippen if it weren't MJ. MJ brought ppl to the arena, the media loved him, and he expanded the game. The kids admired him. This isn't even including how great he was as a player. They were calling MJ the GOAT before Pippen was even an all-star. It was unreal and everyone knew about that talent. It's more like Pippen was lucky to play with MJ and Phil. If Portland didn't screw up and drafted Sam Bowie, they would've had MJ and Drexler. And we would have to see a Drexler book about how good he was in comparison to MJ or this thread would've been about Drexler instead of Pippen. lol

But yeah, it's the stuff of how Pippen say things that rubs ppl the wrong way. Like calling MJ a horrible player lol. But he did say MJ was a horrible teammate and all iso ball. Which was an exaggeration imo, but whatever. Same thing with Kobe criticism of him being a ballhog, but he was worse than MJ. It reminds me of how ppl criticize Jokic in a way. Saying he couldn't get done in the playoffs yet ignored his teammates were hurt and pretended that AD could guard Jokic. Same thing with MJ. Are we going to ignore the teammates? But Phil did manage to maximize the team's talent for sure and he helped MJ get better at balancing getting his team involved and taking the game over.

Pippen complaints about the doc are echo'd by his teammates. I thought the doc did things solid, but there were still things left out.

I think Pippen, Craig Hodges, and Horace Grant were the most vocal. The others basically said it was more about MJ than the team. Jackson said in that interview with Stacey King that the Last Dance had an MJ "slant" to it.

[97 bulls]

This soap opera shit is embarrassing.

There's obviously more to it than any of us know. Who gives a shit. We don't know these people.

Lol. True

[theman93]

I see your point with regards to how what he did and the effect it had on the team.

But again, he has to take care of him and his family first.

I don't know how you guys are missing this. His opting to not have surgery in the offense was NOT a breach of contract.

Lol nobody is saying it was a breach of contract. But as a professional athlete there comes an expectation for you to take care of your body. He didn't, and because of that he left his team out to dry. Which is selfish, period the end.

[Da_Realist]

Lol nobody is saying it was a breach of contract. But as a professional athlete there comes an expectation for you to take care of your body. He didn't, and because of that he left his team out to dry. Which is selfish, period the end.

This has been true since the beginning of sports. Everyone knows this until they don't want to know it. It is why everyone is criticizing Zion Williamson. It is not realistic for a franchise player to eat Doritos until he is 300 lbs and expect everyone to be ok with it just because he ate them during the offseason. It is why Shaq is criticized to this day for not taking care of his body during his offseasons. Robert Parish told younger players (according to Kwame Brown) that it was disgusting that they have cars in better shape than their bodies. He wasn't just advising them to work out during the season. He was speaking of the offseason too. All professional athletes are expected to keep themselves in tip top shape and ready to go before the start of a long season. It is understood that if possible, get surgery during the offseason in order to recover and be ready to go by the start of the regular season. Nobody wants to pay for an athlete, especially a leader, especially especially a champion to sit on the sidelines most of the season when he could have been playing and leading the team.

[97 bulls]

This has been true since the beginning of sports. Everyone knows this until they don't want to know it. It is why everyone is criticizing Zion Williamson. It is not realistic for a franchise player to eat Doritos until he is 300 lbs and expect everyone to be ok with it just because he ate them during the offseason. It is why Shaq is criticized to this day for not taking care of his body during his offseasons. Robert Parish told younger players (according to Kwame Brown) that it was disgusting that they have cars in better shape than their bodies. He wasn't just advising them to work out during the season. He was speaking of the offseason too. All professional athletes are expected to keep themselves in tip top shape and ready to go before the start of a long season. It is understood that if possible, get surgery during the offseason in order to recover and be ready to go by the start of the regular season. Nobody wants to pay for an athlete, especially a leader, especially especially a champion to sit on the sidelines most of the season when he could have been playing and leading the team.

Zion Williams and his letting himself Ballon up to over 300lbs is not the same as Pippen. Pippen didn't let himself go. I see what's going on here. You guys see these athletes as pieces of meat. As animals. They don't have a say. Am I right? I say all this because I'm still trying to figure out why Pippen or any other athlete has the moral obligation but the organization they play for doesn't.

[97 bulls]

I hope you Jordanites understand your double standard here. You have set the standard. Your argument is that the Bulls were not OBLIGATED to redo Pippens contract because he signed it. I agree. So by the same token, Pippen has no more obligation than to play when healthy. You guys are putting everything on Pippen.

[theman93]

I hope you Jordanites understand your double standard here. You have set the standard. Your argument is that the Bulls were not OBLIGATED to redo Pippens contract because he signed it. I agree. So by the same token, Pippen has no more obligation than to play when healthy. You guys are putting everything on Pippen.

You seem really emotional about this. It's not that complicated. Pippen signed a contract to play professional basketball. It's his obligation to take care of his body and play. It's the organizations obligation to pay him.

[FilmyCogTurner]

Can we all just agree... **** the Jerrys?

[97 bulls]

You seem really emotional about this. It's not that complicated. Pippen signed a contract to play professional basketball. It's his obligation to take care of his body and play. It's the organizations obligation to pay him.

Nobody is being emotional. We're having a discussion. Now if you're feelings are hurt, feel free to not respond.

Again. From the standpoint of whos obligated to do what legally, a player doesn't have to do anything during their time off. You're arguing from a moral perspective. Which is fine so long as you apply that logic to both sides. Now if Pippen gained an abnormal amount of weight etc, then we'd be in agreement. He can't help that he hurt his foot playing basketball. Injuries are a part of the game. So what do you mean he needs to take care of his body? Was there anyone saying he was out of shape when he came back?

[Bawkish]

Nobody is being emotional. We're having a discussion. Now if you're feelings are hurt, feel free to not respond.

Again. From the standpoint of whos obligated to do what legally, a player doesn't have to do anything during their time off. You're arguing from a moral perspective. Which is fine so long as you apply that logic to both sides. Now if Pippen gained an abnormal amount of weight etc, then we'd be in agreement. He can't help that he hurt his foot playing basketball. Injuries are a part of the game. So what do you mean he needs to take care of his body? Was there anyone saying he was out of shape when he came back?

The problem is he went to surgery during the season purposely, meaning he did it to despite the management and thought the team would struggle the the 1st half of the season without him. Good thing MJ and the team managed to stay afloat .500 till he came back.

[warriorfan]

op is a cuck

[97 bulls]

The problem is he went to surgery during the season purposely, meaning he did it to despite the management and thought the team would struggle the the 1st half of the season without him. Good thing MJ and the team managed to stay afloat .500 till he came back.

Lol. He never said that. He said something along the lines of 'they don't care about me, so I'm not gonna fck up my summer having to rehab'.

[Bawkish]

Lol. He never said that. He said something along the lines of 'they don't care about me, so I'm not gonna fck up my summer having to rehab'.

Lol, it's just the polished version. Of course he wouldn't say that blatantly but if you read between the lines you'll see he knows he f*cked himself up by signing that contract

[Overdrive]

What you did, was show that you don't know what you're talking about. I'll ask you for a second time. If Pippen was legally obligated to have surgery in the offseaon, WHY DIDNT THE BULLS FINE HIM FOR NOT HAVING THE SURGERY?????

I corrected you on an incorrect analogy, nothing else. Idc that Pippen "healed" on company time.

[Baller789]

I hope you Jordanites understand your double standard here. You have set the standard. Your argument is that the Bulls were not OBLIGATED to redo Pippens contract because he signed it. I agree. So by the same token, Pippen has no more obligation than to play when healthy. You guys are putting everything on Pippen.

I'm pretty sure teams put into more "obligations" than just to play when healthy like attending practices, punctuality, ethics, media handling, not playing certain sports, protecting the franchises image, etc.

[97 bulls]

I corrected you on an incorrect analogy, nothing else. Idc that Pippen "healed" on company time.

The analogy I used was not incorrect. You just don't know what you're talking about.

[Da_Realist]

Idc that Pippen "healed" on company time.

Yeah, ultimately it doesn't matter. The Bulls won 62 games and the championship that year. It's the slow rotting of integrity in the game that bothers me.

Sports used to be a metaphor for life. Especially for men. Sports taught us to be prepared. Be responsible. Owning up to our mistakes. It taught us the benefits of teamwork. That there's honor in sacrifice. Of valuing the team more than self. That building chemistry is more important than accumulating talent. Winning is everything and stats alone is a poor substitute. Perseverence. Leadership.

Now sports has become decidedly less masculine and has lost it's relevance as a result. Especially the NBA. That's why the ratings are way down. The NBA is now only about putting the ball in the hoop and building narratives.

We're having a discussion about a player that wants to be justified for refusing to enter a game and later trying to sabotage a season because he was upset about a contract he himself signed.

This is the age of load management, flopping all over the floor begging for calls and team hopping. LeBron James is already on his 4th team and probably leaked that he's being asked to join a 5th. Durant's on his 4th. Kyrie Irving is on his 3rd and already begging for more help. Kawhi Leonard is also on his 3rd.

Sports media is made up of nothing but fanboys, even former professional athletes. They are paid to do what ISH does tor free: push stats and narratives and deflecting criticism for their favored player. One HOFer almost fought a whole team to protect his boo. They push the narrative that 2nd place has the same value as winning it all. Getting there is good enough. The rest can be made up by excuses and narratives.

The media got all in Pippen's a** 20+ years ago. And rightfully so. But Pippen has witnessed how soft sports media has become over the years. How they love to sympathize with whiners and make excuses for everything. All he had to do was whine and cry about how unfair life is and he knew the feminine media would get the tissue and come to his defense. Perfect time to do a whiner book tour because a documentary showed the truth and hurt his feelings. I've never heard him say any of it was untrue. I did hear Pippen throw a player under the bus that has done nothing but praise him over the years, advocate getting him on the Dream Team even as he pushed to keep Isiah off and publicly state to the world on many occasions, even in his HOF speech where he roasted everyone else, how you never saw MJ without seeing Scottie Pippen. I did see Pippen throw his coach under the bus, the same "racist" coach Pippen tried to follow to LA.

Pippen should produce his own documentary with a Pippen slant to see how many would tune in to see his career highlights. Sign a deal with Netflix or Apple TV like MJ and Magic so we can finally see the truth he wants us to see. The book tour didn't go far enough. We need an 8-part series highlighting how he was actually the biggest reason the Bulls won.

[97 bulls]

I'm pretty sure teams put into more "obligations" than just to play when healthy like attending practices, punctuality, ethics, media handling, not playing certain sports, protecting the franchises image, etc.

Not in the offseason. Granted, there ate stipulations on how you're to behave in the offseason. Like when Jay Williams had that accident. That happened in the offseason. That was Williams time. But the clause in a typical NBA contract say you cant drive motorcycles. Williams was bought out (cut). And the Bulls voided his contract. Pippen got hurt playing for the Bulls in the playoffs. If he was wrong (legally) then the Bulls could have at least fined him for every day he didn't have the surgery. There was nothing wrong with what Pippen did ethically or legally.

[theman93]

Nobody is being emotional. We're having a discussion. Now if you're feelings are hurt, feel free to not respond.

Again. From the standpoint of whos obligated to do what legally, a player doesn't have to do anything during their time off. You're arguing from a moral perspective. Which is fine so long as you apply that logic to both sides. Now if Pippen gained an abnormal amount of weight etc, then we'd be in agreement. He can't help that he hurt his foot playing basketball. Injuries are a part of the game. So what do you mean he needs to take care of his body? Was there anyone saying he was out of shape when he came back?

Lol ok. The organization is also not legally obligated to provide training facilities or a medical staff. They’re also not legally obligated to hire chaplains. But they do it anyways to take care of their players. That’s your logic for both sides. Should the organization not provide those things because they don’t have a legal obligation to do so?

But again, you’re projecting an argument nobody has made. Nobody is calling it a legal obligation for him to have off-season surgery. But it is absolutely selfish of him to wait until the season starts to have it because he hung his teammates out to dry.

[97 bulls]

Yeah, ultimately it doesn't matter. The Bulls won 62 games and the championship that year. It's the slow rotting of integrity in the game that bothers me.

Sports used to be a metaphor for life. Especially for men. Sports taught us to be prepared. Be responsible. Owning up to our mistakes. It taught us the benefits of teamwork. That there's honor in sacrifice. Of valuing the team more than self. That building chemistry is more important than accumulating talent. Winning is everything and stats alone is a poor substitute. Perseverence. Leadership.

Now sports has become decidedly less masculine and has lost it's relevance as a result. Especially the NBA. That's why the ratings are way down. The NBA is now only about putting the ball in the hoop and building narratives.

We're having a discussion about a player that wants to be justified for refusing to enter a game and later trying to sabotage a season because he was upset about a contract he himself signed.

This is the age of load management, flopping all over the floor begging for calls and team hopping. LeBron James is already on his 4th team and probably leaked that he's being asked to join a 5th. Durant's on his 4th. Kyrie Irving is on his 3rd and already begging for more help. Kawhi Leonard is also on his 3rd.

Sports media is made up of nothing but fanboys, even former professional athletes. They are paid to do what ISH does tor free: push stats and narratives and deflecting criticism for their favored player. One HOFer almost fought a whole team to protect his boo. They push the narrative that 2nd place has the same value as winning it all. Getting there is good enough. The rest can be made up by excuses and narratives.

The media got all in Pippen's a** 20+ years ago. And rightfully so. But Pippen has witnessed how soft sports media has become over the years. How they love to sympathize with whiners and make excuses for everything. All he had to do was whine and cry about how unfair life is and he knew the feminine media would get the tissue and come to his defense. Perfect time to do a whiner book tour because a documentary showed the truth and hurt his feelings. I've never heard him say any of it was untrue. I did hear Pippen throw a player under the bus that has done nothing but praise him over the years, advocate getting him on the Dream Team even as he pushed to keep Isiah off and publicly state to the world on many occasions, even in his HOF speech where he roasted everyone else, how you never saw MJ without seeing Scottie Pippen. I did see Pippen throw his coach under the bus, the same "racist" coach Pippen tried to follow to LA.

Pippen should produce his own documentary with a Pippen slant to see how many would tune in to see his career highlights. Sign a deal with Netflix or Apple TV like MJ and Magic so we can finally see the truth he wants us to see. The book tour didn't go far enough. We need an 8-part series highlighting how he was actually the biggest reason the Bulls won.

Lol. Those were the times huh? When the owners could fck over the players and the players had to just take it. There's nothing whiney as to what Pippen did.


I mean, how much abuse and disrespect can a player take before he or she says enough is enough?

That's why the Bulls have a hard time attracting FAs now. Big name FAs. People say it's because players don't want to play in Jordan's shadow, no. It's because the Bulls organization has never respected its players. I even remember Reisndorf saying something along the lines that he didn't care much for basketball.

[97 bulls]

Lol ok. The organization is also not legally obligated to provide training facilities or a medical staff. They’re also not legally obligated to hire chaplains. But they do it anyways to take care of their players. That’s your logic for both sides. Should the organization not provide those things because they don’t have a legal obligation to do so?

But again, you’re projecting an argument nobody has made. Nobody is calling it a legal obligation for him to have off-season surgery. But it is absolutely selfish of him to wait until the season starts to have it because he hung his teammates out to dry.

Well, the things you listed are considered investments. An owner isn't obligated to have the facilities like you mentioned for the players. But it's in their best interest to protect their investment.


Here's my point. Pippen says he opted not to have surgery for an organization he felt didn't care about him right? And he's backed it up with the laundry list of things the Bulls management has done. So now we're talking about what's morally right. The Bulls set the precedent. The owner underpays Pippen for years on a contract that Pippen did sign. And Reinsdorf would not renegotiate. Even though he could. Especially for a player who's done so much for his franchise. But the argument is that Reinsdorf wasn't obligated to renegotiate Pippens contract. So you guys did introduce the legal dynamic into this situation. I'm using you guys argument against you. Hell, truth be told Reinsdorf signed that contract too. He could've put a stipulation in that mandated had Pippen got hurt, he'd be obligated to have surgery within a certain time frame. He didn't. So it's Reinsdorfs fault that he signed that contract too. But you don't get to play both sides.

[theman93]

Well, the things you listed are considered investments. An owner isn't obligated to have the facilities like you mentioned for the players. But it's in their best interest to protect their investment.


Here's my point. Pippen says he opted not to have surgery for an organization he felt didn't care about him right? And he's backed it up with the laundry list of things the Bulls management has done. So now we're talking about what's morally right. The Bulls set the precedent. The owner underpays Pippen for years on a contract that Pippen did sign. And Reinsdorf would not renegotiate. Even though he could. Especially for a player who's done so much for his franchise. But the argument is that Reinsdorf wasn't obligated to renegotiate Pippens contract. So you guys did introduce the legal dynamic into this situation. I'm using you guys argument against you. Hell, truth be told Reinsdorf signed that contract too. He could've put a stipulation in that mandated had Pippen got hurt, he'd be obligated to have surgery within a certain time frame. He didn't. So it's Reinsdorfs fault that he signed that contract too. But you don't get to play both sides.

Is it not also in the best interest of the player to have those things? After all, the owner could send the team to the local playground for practice, to the nearest walk-in clinic for their medical needs, and to Planet Fitness to train and still make out like a bandit on his investment. Do you think players would find issue with that? Or would there be an expectation for the owner to provide world renowned facilities and staffs for the professional athletes he's contracted? For you, it seems as though the buck stops at what's legal. So I'll be surprised if you side with the latter.

And no, Micku implied that it was an obligation for Pippen to have surgery in the offseason and drew comparisons to the Shaq and Kobe situation. You then projected that to mean a legal obligation on post #36 and Micku literally responded, "I don't think it was an obligation per say from a legal standpoint." on post #38. So again, your projecting an argument nobody is making.

[FilmyCogTurner]

Well, the things you listed are considered investments. An owner isn't obligated to have the facilities like you mentioned for the players. But it's in their best interest to protect their investment.


Here's my point. Pippen says he opted not to have surgery for an organization he felt didn't care about him right? And he's backed it up with the laundry list of things the Bulls management has done. So now we're talking about what's morally right. The Bulls set the precedent. The owner underpays Pippen for years on a contract that Pippen did sign. And Reinsdorf would not renegotiate. Even though he could. Especially for a player who's done so much for his franchise. But the argument is that Reinsdorf wasn't obligated to renegotiate Pippens contract. So you guys did introduce the legal dynamic into this situation. I'm using you guys argument against you. Hell, truth be told Reinsdorf signed that contract too. He could've put a stipulation in that mandated had Pippen got hurt, he'd be obligated to have surgery within a certain time frame. He didn't. So it's Reinsdorfs fault that he signed that contract too. But you don't get to play both sides.

It's okay to admit you're wrong.

[97 bulls]

Is it not also in the best interest of the player to have those things? After all, the owner could send the team to the local playground for practice, to the nearest walk-in clinic for their medical needs, and to Planet Fitness to train and still make out like a bandit on his investment. Do you think players would find issue with that? Or would there be an expectation for the owner to provide world renowned facilities and staffs for the professional athletes he's contracted? For you, it seems as though the buck stops at what's legal. So I'll be surprised if you side with the latter.

And no, Micku implied that it was an obligation for Pippen to have surgery in the offseason and drew comparisons to the Shaq and Kobe situation. You then projected that to mean a legal obligation on post #36 and Micku literally responded, "I don't think it was an obligation per say from a legal standpoint." on post #38. So again, your projecting an argument nobody is making.

No, once again, the discrepancy is who is obligated to do what. The Bulls were not obligated to redo Pippens contract. Pippen wasn't obligated to rehab on his time off. Its that simple.


Shaq was wrong because the Lakers were good to Shaq. He was just lazy. The Lakers went out of their way to accommodate Shaq.

[97 bulls]

It's okay to admit you're wrong.

I will when I am. But I'm not in this case.

Again, why does Pippen have to be loyal to a franchise that wasn't loyal to him? Or Michael Jordan For that matter. Truth be told, Jordan didn't leave the Bulls to grieve his father. He left the Bulls to go play baseball. And I'm not saying he's wrong. But I feel he could've given the Bulls more time to make the necessary adjustments by not waiting until the last minute to up and retire. Especially when he's saying he knew he was going to retire the day after the 93 Finals.

[theman93]

No, once again, the discrepancy is who is obligated to do what. The Bulls were not obligated to redo Pippens contract. Pippen wasn't obligated to rehab on his time off. Its that simple.


Shaq was wrong because the Lakers were good to Shaq. He was just lazy. The Lakers went out of their way to accommodate Shaq.

....yes we already know this. But you are the one bringing legal obligations in to the equation. Nobody is talking about that but you lol. The point that’s trying to be made to you is that even though yes he has no obligation to the organization to get surgery and rehab in the offseason, it was still selfish because he hung his teammates out to dry. Everyone was putting work in in the offseason to make a run at history with a second 3-peat except for Pippen because he was stuck in his feels.

[Da_Realist]

....yes we already know this. But you are the one bringing legal obligations in to the equation. Nobody is talking about that but you lol. The point that’s trying to be made to you is that even though yes he has no obligation to the organization to get surgery and rehab in the offseason, it was still selfish because he hung his teammates out to dry.

It's not the behavior of a leader of a championship team trying to three-peat. Especially considering their age that year.

[theman93]

It's not the behavior of a leader of a championship team trying to three-peat. Especially considering their age that year.

Yep, check my edit.

[RogueBorg]

I will when I am. But I'm not in this case.

Again, why does Pippen have to be loyal to a franchise that wasn't loyal to him? Or Michael Jordan For that matter. Truth be told, Jordan didn't leave the Bulls to grieve his father. He left the Bulls to go play baseball. And I'm not saying he's wrong. But I feel he could've given the Bulls more time to make the necessary adjustments by not waiting until the last minute to up and retire. Especially when he's saying he knew he was going to retire the day after the 93 Finals.

Says the Pippenaire.

[97 bulls]

....yes we already know this. But you are the one bringing legal obligations in to the equation. Nobody is talking about that but you lol. The point that’s trying to be made to you is that even though yes he has no obligation to the organization to get surgery and rehab in the offseason, it was still selfish because he hung his teammates out to dry. Everyone was putting work in in the offseason to make a run at history with a second 3-peat except for Pippen because he was stuck in his feels.

So we're back to the moral obligation now. Ok, so were the Bulls and the fans Jordan wrong when they:

1. Misdiagnosed Pippens back injury as a rookie? You know, the injury that only allowed Pippen to average 7ppg and be called a bum by Jordanites?

2. When the fans called him soft and weak minded for having a migraine headache and having a bad game 7 only 2 weeks after his father died?

3. Or when Jerry Krause touted rookie Toni Kukoc over Pippen? Pippen being the player that helped the team win 3 Championships.

4. When Jerry Krause tried to trade Pippen after he helped the Bulls win a 5th championship? While playing on that inured foot?

5. When Jordan (his best teammate) publicly said he was selfish for having surgery when he did, when he (Jordan) did what was in his best interest and left the team to go play baseball? Even though the Bulls were preparing for a 4pt?

6. Pippen was, I believe, the 8th highest paid player on the team. So I'd expect 7 guys to be expected to do more than what he was doing. Again, we we're throwing out the legal obligation of the contract right? Or. Or. Those players (since the team is the most important) could've have said were not going to play a game until Pippen is rightfully compensated.


As I stated previously, if I were Scottie Pippen, I'd say fck them too. Ain't nobody gonna look out for you like you will. You guys are just mad because for the first time ever, your idol (Michael Jordan) is being called out on his BS.

[theman93]

So we're back to the moral obligation now. Ok, so were the Bulls and the fans Jordan wrong when they:

1. Misdiagnosed Pippens back injury as a rookie? You know, the injury that only allowed Pippen to average 7ppg and be called a bum by Jordanites?

2. When the fans called him soft and weak minded for having a migraine headache and having a bad game 7 only 2 weeks after his father died?

3. Or when Jerry Krause touted rookie Toni Kukoc over Pippen? Pippen being the player that helped the team win 3 Championships.

4. When Jerry Krause tried to trade Pippen after he helped the Bulls win a 5th championship? While playing on that inured foot?

5. When Jordan (his best teammate) publicly said he was selfish for having surgery when he did, when he (Jordan) did what was in his best interest and left the team to go play baseball? Even though the Bulls were preparing for a 4pt?

6. Pippen was, I believe, the 8th highest paid player on the team. So I'd expect 7 guys to be expected to do more than what he was doing. Again, we we're throwing out the legal obligation of the contract right? Or. Or. Those players (since the team is the most important) could've have said were not going to play a game until Pippen is rightfully compensated.


As I stated previously, if I were Scottie Pippen, I'd say fck them too. Ain't nobody gonna look out for you like you will. You guys are just mad because for the first time ever, your idol (Michael Jordan) is being called out on his BS.

Moral obligation is a category error. It’s about being a professional instead of letting your feelings get in the way. He has no “moral” obligation to get surgery and rehab in the offseason, just like Kerr, Paxson, Grant, Kukoc, Rodman, etc have no “moral” obligation to get in the gym and work on their craft in the offseason. But the do anyways because they’re professional and care about the team. You’re making this way more complicated than what it needs to be because your just as much of a Pippen stan as you accuse Jordan stans of being lol.

[97 bulls]

Moral obligation is a category error. It’s about being a professional instead of letting your feelings get in the way. He has no “moral” obligation to get surgery and rehab in the offseason, just like Kerr, Paxson, Grant, Kukoc, Rodman, etc have no “moral” obligation to get in the gym and work on their craft in the offseason. But the do anyways because they’re professional and care about the team. You’re making this way more complicated than what it needs to be because your just as much of a Pippen stan as you accuse Jordan stans of being lol.

No, I'm not. Because what you want is for Pippen to be a whipping boy. You heap all these expectations on a guy that's underpaid and disrespected. Over the course of a decade. I'd expect more out of the players that are getting paid more.

And this isn't a Shaq or Zion Williams situation. Pippen didn't let himself go physically.

But again, since you want to make it about the team, why is Pippen the only one expected to sacrifice here? Again, from a team concept, if ine player is being screwed over like Pippen was, then perhaps they should've banned together and said were not playing until Pippen is taken care of.


Hers another question. Did Jordan let the team down when he wanted until a few weeks to retire and making impossible for the team to find a decent replacement?

[theman93]

No, I'm not. Because what you want is for Pippen to be a whipping boy. You heap all these expectations on a guy that's underpaid and disrespected. Over the course of a decade. I'd expect more out of the players that are getting paid more.

Yes, you are lol. What expectations have I heaped on him besides simply expecting him to be professional enough to be ready for the season? That's the expectation for everyone regardless of the size of their check.


And this isn't a Shaq or Zion Williams situation. Pippen didn't let himself go physically.

But again, since you want to make it about the team, why is Pippen the only one expected to sacrifice here? Again, from a team concept, if ine player is being screwed over like Pippen was, then perhaps they should've banned together and said were not playing until Pippen is taken care of.

Being a professional is now a sacrifice? LOL. It's not another man's responsibility to take care of your money. And yet even for as bad of a teammate as you make Jordan out to be, Jordan was the one who was advising him not to sign the deal he eventually signed.


Hers another question. Did Jordan let the team down when he wanted until a few weeks to retire and making impossible for the team to find a decent replacement?

If he knew it would be his intention to retire before the season started, then yes.

Now can you admit Pippen let the team down by opting not to have surgery in the offseason?

[Da_Realist]

Hers another question. Did Jordan let the team down when he wanted until a few weeks to retire and making impossible for the team to find a decent replacement?

He didn't know until he knew. You could think you want to marry someone and still have doubts up to the last minute. The man's father was murdered. Give the dude some grace there.

[Da_Realist]

Yes, you are lol. What expectations have I heaped on him besides simply expecting him to be professional enough to be ready for the season? That's the expectation for everyone regardless of the size of their check.



Being a professional is now a sacrifice? LOL. It's not another man's responsibility to take care of your money. And yet even for as bad of a teammate as you make Jordan out to be, Jordan was the one who was advising him not to sign the deal he eventually signed.



If he knew it would be his intention to retire before the season started, then yes.

Now can you admit Pippen let the team down by opting not to have surgery in the offseason?

It's not that hard to understand. We expect adults to be professional. If a report is due on the 20th then it is expected that you work it until it is done and hand it to your manager on the 20th. Sometimes that requires working through the night. If an assignment is due, you sometimes need to work overnight to get it done. Most athletes lacking professionalism will find themselves traded or let go. If I recall, the Bulls wanted to trade Pippen before MJ came back. MJ made keeping Pippen on the team a condition for his return. But MJ never respected Pippen :kobe:

[97 bulls]

Yes, you are lol. What expectations have I heaped on him besides simply expecting him to be professional enough to be ready for the season? That's the expectation for everyone regardless of the size of their check.
He couldn't be ready because he was hurt.




Being a professional is now a sacrifice? LOL. It's not another man's responsibility to take care of your money. And yet even for as bad of a teammate as you make Jordan out to be, Jordan was the one who was advising him not to sign the deal he eventually signed.
There's a difference between being professional and overlook being disrespected bro. He overlooked being disrespected for 10 years. What happened in 97 was the last straw.




If he knew it would be his intention to retire before the season started, then yes.
Well, according to Jordan. He knew after the last game in the 93 Finals that he was going to retire. That's what he said in the Last Dance. And even if he was mulling it over, he should've given the team the opportunity to make some moves by not waiting until the last minute.




Now can you admit Pippen let the team down by opting not to have surgery in the offseason?

Sure. I never said otherwise. I said he had a valid reason. Truth be told, even I'd Pippen has the surgery and is in tip top shape by the 1st game of the season, you guys would still disrespect him.

[97 bulls]

He didn't know until he knew. You could think you want to marry someone and still have doubts up to the last minute. The man's father was murdered. Give the dude some grace there.

Again, with the double standard. You set the rules, then break them when they don't work for you. I have no problem with what MJ did. He did what was in his best interest. You have a problem with what Pippen did because it had a detrimental effect on the team. Jordan's retirement also had a detrimental effect.

[Da_Realist]

Retiring is different than intentionally sabotaging the season cause of feels. Maybe MJ was thinking about retiring and maybe he would have gone through with it but maybe not. But when he found out his father was murdered in July 1993 all bets were off. It's not longer a basketball situation. People deal with death in different ways, especially if it's sudden. My father also died suddenly. He wasn't murdered (which would have been worse) but it takes time to process all that. MJ had already climbed the highest mountain 3 times in a row. He wanted to go in another direction away from the pressure of holding up the league.

That's way different than being upset that management won't break your contract and intentionally missing most of the season out of spite. This is normal every day stuff but here on ISH everything needs to be broken down to a 4th grade level because most of you are just argumentative.

[97 bulls]

It's not that hard to understand. We expect adults to be professional. If a report is due on the 20th then it is expected that you work it until it is done and hand it to your manager on the 20th. Sometimes that requires working through the night. If an assignment is due, you sometimes need to work overnight to get it done. Most athletes lacking professionalism will find themselves traded or let go. If I recall, the Bulls wanted to trade Pippen before MJ came back. MJ made keeping Pippen on the team a condition for his return. But MJ never respected Pippen :kobe:

Lol. Nobody said MJ didn't respect Pippen. I think Pippen felt betrayed. You guys have a misperception as to what it is to be professional. Professional doesn't mean you're a flunky. It also doesn't mean you have to take people's BS. Pippen sitting out that 1.8 seconds, throwing chairs, the gun situation. Those were him not being professional.

[FilmyCogTurner]

I will when I am. But I'm not in this case.

Again, why does Pippen have to be loyal to a franchise that wasn't loyal to him? Or Michael Jordan For that matter. Truth be told, Jordan didn't leave the Bulls to grieve his father. He left the Bulls to go play baseball. And I'm not saying he's wrong. But I feel he could've given the Bulls more time to make the necessary adjustments by not waiting until the last minute to up and retire. Especially when he's saying he knew he was going to retire the day after the 93 Finals.

The Bulls honored the contract Pippen signed, what is so difficult to understand about this? I hope your not a lawyer "bu-bu-but his fee-wings got hoyttt and now is dis-wi-spected".

The fact is he tried to sabotage the team postponing his surgery which in turn impacted the rest of the group who had nothing to do with his contract. That is unprofessional and selfish as it gets and the longer this debate goes on if we want to call it a debate the more you seem like Scottie Pippen to me. Stubborn and ignorant to the truth.

[theman93]

He couldn't be ready because he was hurt.
No, and this is why your a clear and obvious Pippen homer. He could have absolutely been ready but he chose not to. Acting like everyone is wearing rose-colored glasses for Jordan while your not wearing rose-colored glasses for Pippen is hilarious.




There's a difference between being professional and overlook being disrespected bro. He overlooked being disrespected for 10 years. What happened in 97 was the last straw.
Cry me a river. He's a grown ass man and there's nothing wrong with expecting a grown ass man to be a professional.




Well, according to Jordan. He knew after the last game in the 93 Finals that he was going to retire. That's what he said in the Last Dance. And even if he was mulling it over, he should've given the team the opportunity to make some moves by not waiting until the last minute.
Sure. Fair enough.




Sure. I never said otherwise. I said he had a valid reason. Truth be told, even I'd Pippen has the surgery and is in tip top shape by the 1st game of the season, you guys would still disrespect him.
Nah. There's like one guy on here who shits on him consistently. Everyone else might every once in a blue moon bring up this situation, the 1994 situation, or the migraine. Two of the three he is clearly and obvious being selfish.

[97 bulls]

The Bulls honored the contract Pippen signed, what is so difficult to understand about this? I hope your not a lawyer "bu-bu-but his fee-wings got hoyttt and now is dis-wi-spected".

Lol. I know you're not a lawyer. Pippen honored the terms and conditions outlined in his contract. That's being professional.



The fact is he tried to sabotage the team postponing his surgery which in turn impacted the rest of the group who had nothing to do with his contract. That is unprofessional and selfish as it gets and the longer this debate goes on if we want to call it a debate the more you seem like Scottie Pippen to me. Stubborn and ignorant to the truth.
He didn't sabotage the team bro. He came back and played his heart out. Even broke his back trying to help the Bulls win the title. Your problem is you feel going that extra mile makes one a professional. That's not true. Doing your job and fulfilling your duties to the best of your abilities make one a professional. That is, in the context in which we're speaking. If you're scheduled to work an 8 hour shift, and you're asked to work another 4 hours and you decline, that doesn't mean you're not being a professional. I think the word you're looking for is 'company man'.


The Bold is hilarious

[97 bulls]

No, and this is why your a clear and obvious Pippen homer. He could have absolutely been ready but he chose not to. Acting like everyone is wearing rose-colored glasses for Jordan while your not wearing rose-colored glasses for Pippen is hilarious.
He couldve. But that doesn't mean hes some evil individual because he opted to make a decison that stayed within the confines of the teams conditions.




Cry me a river. He's a grown ass man and there's nothing wrong with expecting a grown ass man to be a professional.
Right. You want him to be a flunky.





Nah. There's like one guy on here who shits on him consistently. Everyone else might every once in a blue moon bring up this situation, the 1994 situation, or the migraine. Two of the three he is clearly and obvious being selfish.
There's more than one guy. Way more. I honestly feel Pippen has been being disrespected ever since Lebron James GOAT status gained a little legitimacy (even though Jordan is the GOAT). And what happend is that people now have to crap on Jordan's teammates to make him seem like he won all those tiles by himself.

[FilmyCogTurner]

Lol. I know you're not a lawyer. Pippen honored the terms and conditions outlined in his contract. That's being professional.



He didn't sabotage the team bro. He came back and played his heart out. Even broke his back trying to help the Bulls win the title. Your problem is you feel going that extra mile makes one a professional. That's not true. Doing your job and fulfilling your duties to the best of your abilities make one a professional. That is, in the context in which we're speaking. If you're scheduled to work an 8 hour shift, and you're asked to work another 4 hours and you decline, that doesn't mean you're not being a professional. I think the word you're looking for is 'company man'.


The Bold is hilarious

Were his teammates impacted by his decision to postpone surgery?

[Micku]

There's more than one guy. Way more. I honestly feel Pippen has been being disrespected ever since Lebron James GOAT status gained a little legitimacy (even though Jordan is the GOAT). And what happend is that people now have to crap on Jordan's teammates to make him seem like he won all those tiles by himself.

It happened early than that. In the 2000s they were talking about Pippen too in comparison to Kobe. They were talking about how good MJ's teammates were in comparison to Kobe. And you had ppl either underrating or overrating MJ supporting case to win a bigger debate of MJ's impact vs whatever player.

And you always hold Pippen in a higher regard than the rest of the fans, right? I remember you comparing him to Magic a while back.

I felt Pippen is always either underrated or overrated. I thought he gets overtalked though. But that's my opinion. Patrick Ewing doesn't get enough talk I feel. Always thought he was better. Nobody talks about McHale this way. Nobody talks about Gasol. They don't even talk about Wade this way.

But the Bulls were a great team even without MJ. But that was after a while. MJ was the biggest piece though. After the doc, Pippen said crazy stuff. Like I said before, he said Phil was racist, MJ didn't want to defend the best player (lol), didn't pass, didn't rebound, his leadership didn't have any impact on the game, and said MJ had a negative impact on the game overall. That players wanted to do iso ball instead playing a team game. A bunch of stuff that sounded bitter after the doc.

And I think this will lead even more ppl disregard whatever Pippen legacy is. That MJ had to carry him and his bruised ego who wanted more credit than he deserved. But Pippen was a very good player and the Bulls were a good team top to bottom. Ppl consider him top 30 or top 25 or whatever. Idk. And that's crazy impressive man. They weren't the most talented, but you don't have the most talent to be a champion.

[theman93]

He couldve. But that doesn't mean hes some evil individual because he opted to make a decison that stayed within the confines of the teams conditions.
Who's calling him evil? The consensus is that he was being selfish. It ain't like we're calling him the devil lol. You're projecting again.





Right. You want him to be a professional.

fixed it for you




There's more than one guy. Way more. I honestly feel Pippen has been being disrespected ever since Lebron James GOAT status gained a little legitimacy (even though Jordan is the GOAT). And what happend is that people now have to crap on Jordan's teammates to make him seem like he won all those tiles by himself.
Who is consistently shitting on Pippen besides 3ba11? Name names if it's so many. And nah. Most of this talk around Pippen started when Lebron stans started the "no pip, no chip" trolling in response to Jordan being 6-0. We're simply correcting the Pippen record.

[97 bulls]

It happened early than that. In the 2000s they were talking about Pippen too in comparison to Kobe. They were talking about how good MJ's teammates were in comparison to Kobe. And you had ppl either underrating or overrating MJ supporting case to win a bigger debate of MJ's impact vs whatever player.
True


And you always hold Pippen in a higher regard than the rest of the fans, right? I remember you comparing him to Magic a while back.
I did. I feel they have a very similar skillset. Tall, excellent ball handlers, streaky jumpshooters, similar in rebounding, Magic was the better passer, Pippen the far better defended. And Magic was far better the thr FT line. Now saying that, Magic is a top 5/6 player, while Pippen is top 20s in my opinion.


I felt Pippen is always either underrated or overrated. I thought he gets overtalked though. But that's my opinion. Patrick Ewing doesn't get enough talk I feel. Always thought he was better. Nobody talks about McHale this way. Nobody talks about Gasol. They don't even talk about Wade this way.

But the Bulls were a great team even without MJ. But that was after a while. MJ was the biggest piece though. After the doc, Pippen said crazy stuff. Like I said before, he said Phil was racist, MJ didn't want to defend the best player (lol), didn't pass, didn't rebound, his leadership didn't have any impact on the game, and said MJ had a negative impact on the game overall. That players wanted to do iso ball instead playing a team game. A bunch of stuff that sounded bitter after the doc.

And I think this will lead even more ppl disregard whatever Pippen legacy is. That MJ had to carry him and his bruised ego who wanted more credit than he deserved. But Pippen was a very good player and the Bulls were a good team top to bottom. Ppl consider him top 30 or top 25 or whatever. Idk. And that's crazy impressive man. They weren't the most talented, but you don't have the most talent to be a champion.[/QUOTE]
Some of the stuff Pip said about MJ was just downright awful and wrong. But he wasn't wrong with regards to alot of what he said about MJ either.

[97 bulls]

Who's calling him evil? The consensus is that he was being selfish. It ain't like we're calling him the devil lol. You're projecting again.

Bro. Its not selfish. He fulfiled what he was contractually obligated to do. He has to do whats in his best interest first before he can help anyone else. Why didnt players on the Bulls volunteer to restructure their contract to pay Pippen what he was worth? Or like i said, sit out until the Bulls organization pays Pippen what he's worth. It's about the team, right?





Who is consistently shitting on Pippen besides 3ba11? Name names if it's so many. And nah. Most of this talk around Pippen started when Lebron stans started the "no pip, no chip," trolling in response to Jordan being 6-0. We're simply correcting the Pippen record.
That no Pip no chip stuff and the 1-9 mumbo jumbo started when the Jordanites began making the argument that Jordan won in spite of his teammates.

[theman93]

Bro. Its not selfish. He fulfiled what he was contractually obligated to do. He has to do whats in his best interest first before he can help anyone else. Why didnt players on the Bulls volunteer to restructure their contract to pay Pippen what he was worth? Or like i said, sit out until the Bulls organization pays Pippen what he's worth. It's about the team, right?
Everyone here seems to think it was selfish besides you :confusedshrug:. You can fulfill your contractual obligations and be selfish at the same time.

And because it's not up to the team to sacrifice for the individual. It's up to the individual to sacrifice for the team. If you've played sports at any level you would know this.





That no Pip no chip stuff and the 1-9 mumbo jumbo started when the Jordanites began making the argument that Jordan won in spite of his teammates.
Notice you haven't named anyone on here or in the media who consistently shit on Pippen. Still waiting.

[97 bulls]

Everyone here seems to think it was selfish besides you :confusedshrug:. You can fulfill your contractual obligations and be selfish at the same time.

The circumstances in this situation is different. Listen to Steve Kerr

https://youtu.be/7t3sSr0hxGs



And because it's not up to the team to sacrifice for the individual. It's up to the individual to sacrifice for the team. If you've played sports at any level you would know this.
Right. So the players on the team should put whats in their personal best interests aside and make sure that theyre doing whatever needs to be done to ensure the best possibility for said teams success. Be it Scottie Pippen taking the constant disrespect on the chin, or other players restructuring their contracts for the good of the team and assuring that one of their best players is happy. Its asinine logic.





Notice you haven't named anyone on here or in the media who consistently shit on Pippen. Still waiting.
Rougeburge, Soundwave, you, FilmyCogTurner, to name a few off the top of my head.
In the media? Skip Bayless for sure, Chris Broussard, Steven A Smith.

[theman93]

The circumstances in this situation is different. Listen to Steve Kerr

https://youtu.be/7t3sSr0hxGs
Lol so no one had an issue with Scottie waiting to get surgery when MJ literally said Pippen was wrong in that situation? Maybe Kerr should speak for himself instead of others.




Right. So the players on the team should put whats in their personal best interests aside and make sure that theyre doing whatever needs to be done to ensure the best possibility for said teams success. Be it Scottie Pippen taking the constant disrespect on the chin, or other players restructuring their contracts for the good of the team and assuring that one of their best players is happy. Its asinine logic.
No. Again, the bolded is the same example you've been giving of the team sacrificing for the individual, not the individual sacrificing for the team. It's not up to the entire team to appease Scottie. So you're right - it is completely asinine. This isn't that hard to grasp.




Rougeburge, Soundwave, you, FilmyCogTurner, to name a few off the top of my head.
In the media? Skip Bayless for sure, Chris Broussard, Steven A Smith.

Mmmm no. Don't confuse the few instances of (rightful) criticism for shitting on him consistently 3ba11 style.

[HoopsNY]

I already did a breakdown of Chicago's W/L record when MJ shot 20 or more times per game, every year. The team played much better (though were still dominant when he didn't) from 1991-98 when he shot the ball less than 20 times.

This is a general trend though. The same happens with LeBron, KD, Steph, and Kobe. It's not surprising. Team basketball wins games and keeps defenses on their toes, eventually tiring them out.

[WhiteKyrie]

I will when I am. But I'm not in this case.

Again, why does Pippen have to be loyal to a franchise that wasn't loyal to him? Or Michael Jordan For that matter. Truth be told, Jordan didn't leave the Bulls to grieve his father. He left the Bulls to go play baseball. And I'm not saying he's wrong. But I feel he could've given the Bulls more time to make the necessary adjustments by not waiting until the last minute to up and retire. Especially when he's saying he knew he was going to retire the day after the 93 Finals.
Not loyal to him?

The Bulls literally brought him back to end his career, gave him a bronze bust in the stadium and actually created a position in the organization for him to give him a paycheck because he was hurting so bad with his dumb poor investments not long after his career ended.

Scottie is obviously a selfish, sick and troubled immature old man at this point. He’s doing more harm to himself right now than anything. He’s petty, over emotional, and quite frankly stupid. Everything he says sounds bat shit crazy and stupid. He had been doing the flip flopping thing on the Bron and MJ conversation every other day. Because part of him is resentful MJ was the obvious superior player and that Scottie gets viewed (rightfully so) as a sidekick level talent. He sees more similarities in his game with LeBrons (even said he was better than him recently :oldlol:) he’s all over the place because he’s a known selfish guy.

His reputation around Chicago land is no tippin Pippen. He might have been the good cop to MJ’s bad cop in the locker room, but unlike Michael who went out of his way to be selfless and defend Scottie or give him praise (back in the late 90s, in the doc, etc) Scottie is selfishly throwing tantrums and pissing all over the legacy of himself and his championship teams and teammates in this process. The same way he went Scottie Qutting at the end of a playoff game because he was asked to be a decoy. Or the sitting out 1998 during the season as some sort of weird leverage power play for himself.

This dude has always been crazy and ridiculously immature and selfish. Not to mention stupid.

You can totally see why Larsa left his ass.

[bdonovan]

Lol. Look at how Jordan is treating Isiah Thomas. He ended his friendship with Charles Barkley because Barkely said he had to many yes men around him. He called Isiah Thomas and "A" hole. Over something that happened in 1985? Jordan ain't never took the high road when it comes to handling people that he feels wronged him.

Is Jordan just scapegoating Isaiah for the beating he took from Lambeer and Mahorn. Isaiah was on that team but he wasn't the one knocking Jordan to the ground. And if there were Jordan rules it came from their coach Chuck Daly.

If so, that's awfully convenient because Isaiah isn't physically formidable as the 'bad boys' on the Pistons who did mess with Jordan.

[bdonovan]

The Bulls literally brought him back to end his career, gave him a bronze bust in the stadium and actually created a position in the organization for him to give him a paycheck because he was hurting so bad with his dumb poor investments not long after his career ended.

Scottie's oldest son died.

His wife left him, but not before cheating on him with a famous rapper and the rapper basically emasculated him. She is sleeping with every other basketball player/celebrity being public about her relationships with them. Now she's with Jordan's son.

He's had two failed marriages and basically a third when his fiancee didn't marry him.

The guy's mental state is fragile and clearly the Jordan comment pushed him over the edge.

[WhiteKyrie]

Scottie's oldest son died.

His wife left him, but not before cheating on him with a famous rapper and the rapper basically emasculated him. She is sleeping with every other basketball player/celebrity being public about her relationships with them. Now she's with Jordan's son.

He's had two failed marriages and basically a third when his fiancee didn't marry him.

The guy's mental state is fragile and clearly the Jordan comment pushed him over the edge.

Doesn’t make the way he’s handling it and acting out any less ridiculous?

Jordan didn’t make any comments about him.

[Da_Realist]

Scottie's oldest son died.

His wife left him, but not before cheating on him with a famous rapper and the rapper basically emasculated him. She is sleeping with every other basketball player/celebrity being public about her relationships with them. Now she's with Jordan's son.

He's had two failed marriages and basically a third when his fiancee didn't marry him.

The guy's mental state is fragile and clearly the Jordan comment pushed him over the edge.

His mental state is fragile because he refuses to take responsibility for his own decisions and needs someone to blame for his misery. He signed the contract. He chose his wives. His choice to marry Larsa Kardashian is especially egregious. She is out for blood. He is projecting all that onto MJ to deflect from the vampire that's eating him alive and humiliating him publicly every day. I will say that knowing she is banging MJ's son is tough to accept. She knew he was envious of MJ the whole time and this is how she is choosing to inflict as much pain as possible. She knows this is a sore spot for Scottie.
I know MJ's son is grown but this wouldn't be something I'd co-sign if I were MJ. Yet and still, Scottie's biggest issue is with Larsa. He wifed her, gave her children and his last name. He may never be able to separate himself from her toxicity.

[Norcaliblunt]

Lmao at people who define their whole life by their occupation. So what Pippen said Jordan was bad at his job early in his career? Who cares? Y’all act like hes saying he’s a horrible person and f him. Lol.

What your co workers can’t have an opinion on you at the office? It’s automatically a personal f your life bullshit if someone critiques you at your job?

[97 bulls]

Lol so no one had an issue with Scottie waiting to get surgery when MJ literally said Pippen was wrong in that situation? Maybe Kerr should speak for himself instead of others.

That's because MJ only thought about himself.




No. Again, the bolded is the same example you've been giving of the team sacrificing for the individual, not the individual sacrificing for the team. It's not up to the entire team to appease Scottie. So you're right - it is completely asinine. This isn't that hard to grasp.
Again. Making the rules, then breaking them when I use said rule against you. Were talking about team success right? Pippen was the second best player on that team. If hes that important, and its all about sacrificing for the greater good of the team, come what may, then by your logic, the players on the team shouldve sacrificed their income to accommodate a player that would give them the best shot at winning.








Mmmm no. Don't confuse the few instances of (rightful) criticism for shitting on him consistently 3ba11 style.
I'm not. That clown is the worse. But I think he trolls mores than anything.

[Norcaliblunt]

And Lmao at Pippen and his stan’s looking for some sort of validation for him doing his job while someone else gets credit. Lol. Welcome to the rest of the world dude.

Hahaha.

[97 bulls]

Not loyal to him?

The Bulls literally brought him back to end his career, gave him a bronze bust in the stadium and actually created a position in the organization for him to give him a paycheck because he was hurting so bad with his dumb poor investments not long after his career ended.
Big whoop. All that did was promote ticket sales when they put out that statue of him. And you talk about the Bulls hiring him, did you know they fired him when they wanted him to do more stuff that wouldve interfered with his job on ESPN and he said he would if theh paid him more money since they wanted him to do more work?


Scottie is obviously a selfish, sick and troubled immature old man at this point. He’s doing more harm to himself right now than anything. He’s petty, over emotional, and quite frankly stupid. Everything he says sounds bat shit crazy and stupid. He had been doing the flip flopping thing on the Bron and MJ conversation every other day. Because part of him is resentful MJ was the obvious superior player and that Scottie gets viewed (rightfully so) as a sidekick level talent. He sees more similarities in his game with LeBrons (even said he was better than him recently :oldlol:) he’s all over the place because he’s a known selfish guy.
If hes been so resentful and selfish of MJ, why speak so highly of him? Even in his most recent interview, he said hed take MJ in his starting 5. I think you Jordanites are mad that Pippen is airing out Jordan's dirty laundry. Publicly saying things we knew deep down to be true, but didn't want to acknowledge it.


His reputation around Chicago land is no tippin Pippen. He might have been the good cop to MJ’s bad cop in the locker room, but unlike Michael who went out of his way to be selfless and defend Scottie or give him praise (back in the late 90s, in the doc, etc) Scottie is selfishly throwing tantrums and pissing all over the legacy of himself and his championship teams and teammates in this process. The same way he went Scottie Qutting at the end of a playoff game because he was asked to be a decoy. Or the sitting out 1998 during the season as some sort of weird leverage power play for himself.

This dude has always been crazy and ridiculously immature and selfish. Not to mention stupid.
No, what Pippen is doing, is finally standing up for himself and not taking it on the chin.


You can totally see why Larsa left his ass.
Lol. You sound bitter. I never understood the fascination with Larsa Pippen. It's my understanding that They've been broken up for years. Pippen never took her back, he gave her a place to stay. He was still seen with other women in public while Larsa was doing her thing. Scottie can't tell her who she can and can't be with. And then, factor in what Larsa said about her ex

"I feel like I am kind of mentally in a place of, like, I was married to a really famous guy that was really cute, that had a good body that was really successful that gave me four gorgeous kids," she said. "So, where the hell are you gonna find a guy that can like, fill in — it doesn't have to be all of those, but like, a few of those boxes."
She added, "It's kind of hard. I thought it was going to be easier, to be honest with you."



One more point. Scottie and Larsa were married for 23 years. Lol. We never heard of this chick until they broke up and she started messing with all these dudes. People change. If I was Michael Jordan, I'd be disappointed that my son is dating a ho.

[theman93]

That's because MJ only thought about himself.




Again. Making the rules, then breaking them when I use said rule against you. Were talking about team success right? Pippen was the second best player on that team. If hes that important, and its all about sacrificing for the greater good of the team, come what may, then by your logic, the players on the team shouldve sacrificed their income to accommodate a player that would give them the best shot at winning.








I'm not. That clown is the worse. But I think he trolls mores than anything.

Except your not using the rule against me. You're twisting it and thinking you are lol. You are literally saying, "the players on the team shouldve sacrificed their income to accomodate a player". That's literally the team sacrificing for the individual. My position is the exact opposite - the individual sacrificing (if we even want to call being a professional a sacrifice lmao) for the team. At least be intellectually honest when you're debating. You know exactly what you're doing lol.

[theman93]

Big whoop. All that did was promote ticket sales when they put out that statue of him.

LOL really? The Bulls were the #1 seed in the East with 62 wins and MVP Derrick Rose when they unveiled his statue in 2011, and you think they did it for...........ticket sales?? My goodness you are off your rockers. You'll literally do anything to make something seem like a slight at Pippen. How is anybody supposed to take you seriously? You are basically 3ba11 but for Pippen at this point LOL.

[RogueBorg]

You'll literally do anything to make something seem like a slight at Pippen. How is anybody supposed to take you seriously? You are basically 3ba11 but for Pippen at this point LOL.



He's a Pippenaire

[theman93]

He's a Pippenaire

From this point forward he will be referred to as 97bu11s. :roll:

[RogueBorg]

From this point forward he will be referred to as 97bu11s. :roll:

:lol:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Except your not using the rule against me. You're twisting it and thinking you are lol. You are literally saying, "the players on the team shouldve sacrificed their income to accomodate a player". That's literally the team sacrificing for the individual. My position is the exact opposite - the individual sacrificing (if we even want to call being a professional a sacrifice lmao) for the team. At least be intellectually honest when you're debating. You know exactly what you're doing lol.

Right. Because that player has a much bigger effect on the teams success. And the teams success is all that matters. That's what you're saying correct?

[theman93]

Right. Because that player has a much bigger effect on the teams success. And the teams success is all that matters. That's what you're saying correct?

No. Do you have reading comprehension issues? My position has been the same. It is up to the individual to sacrifice for the team, not the team to sacrifice for the individual. That has always been the case in team sports.

[97 bulls]

No. Do you have reading comprehension issues? My position has been the same. It is up to the individual to sacrifice for the team, not the team to sacrifice for the individual. That has always been the case in team sports.
And what is the sacrifice for? You established who it is for (the team). Now why are players sacrificing for team?

[theman93]

And what is the sacrifice for? You established who it is for (the team). Now why are players sacrificing for team?

To win obviously. But you’re still saying the team should be the ones to sacrifice for the individual for that objective. That’s not how it works buddy.

[97 bulls]

To win obviously. But you’re still saying the team should be the ones to sacrifice for the individual for that objective. That’s not how it works buddy.

Bro. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the teams success. And what each and every player has to do to make that success a reality. You're not worried about the success of the team, you're worried about a player benefiting from that sacrifice. I'm just moving it along and acknowledging the scenario. Pippen is our second best shot at winning (cuz according to you, that's all that matters). He's being done wrong which is hindering the teams success. So I'm gonna have to sacrifice and do my part to get Pippen back out of the basketball court. Pippen, in turn even though he's disgruntled due to be screwed over constantly, now has to do his part by overlooking the disrespect and lack of appreciation, by doing his part and getting the surgery done in the offseaon, rehab and be ready to play by the 1st game of the season. Everybody sacrificed something for the good of the team. Other than the organization.

[theman93]

Bro. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the teams success. And what each and every player has to do to make that success a reality. You're not worried about the success of the team, you're worried about a player benefiting from that sacrifice. I'm just moving it along and acknowledging the scenario. Pippen is our second best shot at winning (cuz according to you, that's all that matters). He's being done wrong which is hindering the teams success. So I'm gonna have to sacrifice and do my part to get Pippen back out of the basketball court. Pippen, in turn even though he's disgruntled due to be screwed over constantly, now has to do his part by overlooking the disrespect and lack of appreciation, by doing his part and getting the surgery done in the offseaon, rehab and be ready to play by the 1st game of the season. Everybody sacrificed something for the good of the team. Other than the organization.

Stop it 97bu11s. When have you EVER heard of an entire team taking a backseat financially for an individual player in any sport? The answer is never, and you know it. The reality is that you are so far up Pippen's ass you'll go as far as to say ridiculous and outlandish things like the reason he has a statue was because of ticket sales.....even though the team had the best record in the league with the MVP. How is anybody supposed to take you seriously?

[HoopsNY]

97 is easily one of my favorite posters on this forum, but the excuses for Pippen are getting ridiculous now.

[97 bulls]

Stop it 97bu11s. When have you EVER heard of an entire team taking a backseat financially for an individual player in any sport? The answer is never, and you know it. The reality is that you are so far up Pippen's ass you'll go as far as to say ridiculous and outlandish things like the reason he has a statue was because of ticket sales.....even though the team had the best record in the league with the MVP. How is anybody supposed to take you seriously?

I'm not saying anyone should take a paycut for a teammate. Even for Scottie Pippen. I'm showing you how dumb your logic is. That Scottie Pippen should make a personal sacrifice for the betterment of the team. Even though historically, it's not been reciprocated. I see nothing wrong with a player doing anything that doesn't clash with what's been agreed to.


It seems to me that you want Scottie Pippen to go above and beyond and do what in the best interest of the organization. And that be it. You and I both know that that's not the norm for most people.

[97 bulls]

97 is easily one of my favorite posters on this forum, but the excuses for Pippen are getting ridiculous now.

Thanks bro. You're one of my favorites as well. But I'd like to ask, where am I being unreasonable here?allow me to rehash Scottie Pippens history with the Bulls, Jordan, and the fans


In Pippens rookie year, he starts having back issues. He tell management, they send him to the team doctors, and they say there's nothing wrong with him. He continues to play with the back pain, and as it gets worse, he seeks a second opinion. Come to find out he needs to have back surgery. Pippen averaged 7ppg. And many fans call him a bum, while overlooking the fact that he played his rookie year with a bad back.

Pippens migraine game. Fans don't give a damn that Pippens father died 2 weeks before that game 7. He played over 49 minutes that night for the Bulls. And all people could say is Pippen is soft.

Jerry Krause totally and publicly disrespects Pippen in the Kukoc situation. I think the only reason this is acknowledged is because Jordan also said he felt disrespected. Had it been Pippen? I don't think we'd see it the same way.

Pippen hurts his foot in the 97 Playoffs. And he need surgery, he plays on that bad foot in the Finals and people call him a scrub. Not only that, but then, about a week or two after that finals, Krause publicly acknowledges that he's willing to trade Pippen.

Jordan calls him selfish in the Last Dance for what he perceived as leaving him high and dry. Totally forgetting all the aforementioned incidents that Pippen went through. Jordan sided with the management.

Pippen retires, some time later, he takes a job with the Bulls as an ambassador. They ask him to take on more assignments and he says he will if they pay him enough to quit working at ESPN. They fire him. Lol. They actually wanted him to do more work but not pay him more.


I'm reading all these things that happened to Pippen during his tenure with the Bulls. And you say I'm being ridiculous?

[theman93]

I'm not saying anyone should take a paycut for a teammate. Even for Scottie Pippen. I'm showing you how dumb your logic is. That Scottie Pippen should make a personal sacrifice for the betterment of the team. Even though historically, it's not been reciprocated. I see nothing wrong with a player doing anything that doesn't clash with what's been agreed to.


It seems to me that you want Scottie Pippen to go above and beyond and do what in the best interest of the organization. And that be it. You and I both know that that's not the norm for most people.

You cannot be this dull man...like what are you even talking about? That's not even close to my logic at all. I will break it down for you Barney style so hopefully you can understand this time: My position for the hundredth time has been this - it is up to the individual to sacrifice for the team, not the team to sacrifice for the individual. Your attempt to apply my logic was the total and complete opposite - that the team should sacrifice (their pay), for the individual (Scottie). How are you not getting this lol.

And no, again - the expectation for Scottie would be the same expectation for any professional athlete in any sport: To do what you need to do to be ready to go for the season. This is not a lofty expectation, it is not an unreasonable expectation, and it is not an expectation to go above and beyond. It is simply the expectation for a professional athlete. Period.

[theman93]

Thanks bro. You're one of my favorites as well. But I'd like to ask, where am I being unreasonable here?allow me to rehash Scottie Pippens history with the Bulls, Jordan, and the fans

Uhhhh how about that Pippen's statue was for ticket sales? Maybe start with that one as you haven't addressed it at all.

[97 bulls]

You cannot be this dull man...like what are you even talking about? That's not even close to my logic at all. I will break it down for you Barney style so hopefully you can understand this time: My position for the hundredth time has been this - it is up to the individual to sacrifice for the team, not the team to sacrifice for the individual. Your attempt to apply my logic was the total and complete opposite - that the team should sacrifice (their pay), for the individual (Scottie). How are you not getting this lol.

And no, again - the expectation for Scottie would be the same expectation for any professional athlete in any sport: To do what you need to do to be ready to go for the season. This is not a lofty expectation, it is not an unreasonable expectation, and it is not an expectation to go above and beyond. It is simply the expectation for a professional athlete. Period.

I know what you're saying. It's just a different set of rules for Pippen. Pippen is supposed to overlook his personal self for what's good to the team. But everyone else including Michale Jordan can take care of themselves first.

You need to look up the wrod professional

'engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.'

Pippen not wanting to do anything work related on his vacation time doesn't make him unprofessional. That's why I say you want him to go above and beyond what's required of him. Essentially, you want him to work on his time off.

[97 bulls]

Uhhhh how about that Pippen's statue was for ticket sales? Maybe start with that one as you haven't addressed it at all.

Lol. Yes ticket sales. You must not know business. The Bulls making a bust of Pippen doesnt make up for all the messed up crap they did to him over the course of his career there. I listed 6 or 7 things that happened to Pippen during his tenure with the Bulls. You haven't addressed any. Why?

[theman93]

I know what you're saying. It's just a different set of rules for Pippen. Pippen is supposed to overlook his personal self for what's good to the team. But everyone else including Michale Jordan can take care of themselves first.

You need to look up the wrod professional

'engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.'

Pippen not wanting to do anything work related on his vacation time doesn't make him unprofessional. That's why I say you want him to go above and beyond what's required of him. Essentially, you want him to work on his time off.

How is it a different set of rules for Pippen? All professional athletes, including Pippen, are expected to do what they need to do to be ready for the season. When has this ever not been the expectation for a professional athlete under contract? There’s a difference between taking time for yourself after the season ends, and taking the literal entire offseason up until the month of when the season starts to have surgery on a foot that’s going to take 3+ months to recover from.

[theman93]

Lol. Yes ticket sales. You must not know business. The Bulls making a bust of Pippen doesnt make up for all the messed up crap they did to him over the course of his career there. I listed 6 or 7 things that happened to Pippen during his tenure with the Bulls. You haven't addressed any. Why?
So let me get this straight. You say the Bulls fan base has this major disrespect for Pippen, so the organization decided to make a statue of him to get more ticket sales...when the fan base has this major disrespect for him? And that’s going to drive ticket sales? Even though the Bulls at that time touted the best record in basketball with one of the most exciting players in the league in MVP D-Rose and weren’t struggling to sell tickets? Do you also think the earth is flat?

[Baller789]

97 Bulls getting exposed. :lebronamazed:

[Da_Realist]

How is it a different set of rules for Pippen? All professional athletes, including Pippen, are expected to do what they need to do to be ready for the season. When has this ever not been the expectation for a professional athlete under contract? There’s a difference between taking time for yourself after the season ends, and taking the literal entire offseason up until the month of when the season starts to have surgery on a foot that’s going to take 3+ months to recover from.

And let's look at it from MJ's perspective since that is what caused this meltdown. On the one hand, MJ was underpaid by the Bulls for years. He did not threaten to sit out. He did not withhold his services. He did not strong-arm the Bulls by not being prepared for the season. He went out and got his money from Corporate America then when it was time to renegotiate, he nailed the Bulls to the wall. His contract situation never affected his team.

On the other hand, MJ broke his leg during his second season. He worked hard to get back as soon as possible despite management telling him to shut it down for the season. They even threatened the coach with his job (https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/michael-jordan-rebelled-against-load-management-years-before-it-was-even-a-thing/361915/) if he played MJ more than 14 mins during the Bulls push to make the playoffs. MJ worked to get back for a team that had no shot to win the championship that year and would most likely get thrown to the wolves in the first round even if they made the playoffs. He went above and beyond for the team.

Imagine MJ years later seeing Pippen do the opposite. Except this is for a championship contender and Pippen is a long time leader of the team. Of course, MJ would think Pippen was being selfish by delaying surgery. His teammates were collateral damage in Pippen's fight with management, something that never happened with MJ. And let it be known, Pippen publicly stated while he was out that he would never play with the Bulls again. He gave his teammates the idea that they would need to play the rest of the season without him. He left MJ to shoulder the load of most of that season alone at age 35. I can see why MJ would think Pippen's behavior was selfish. Especially considering that this was expected to be their last championship run together.

[kawhileonard2]

And let's look at it from MJ's perspective since that is what caused this meltdown. On the one hand, MJ was underpaid by the Bulls for years. He did not threaten to sit out. He did not withhold his services. He did not strong-arm the Bulls by not being prepared for the season. He went out and got his money from Corporate America then when it was time to renegotiate, he nailed the Bulls to the wall. His contract situation never affected his team.

On the other hand, MJ broke his leg during his second season. He worked hard to get back as soon as possible despite management telling him to shut it down for the season. They even threatened the coach with his job (https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/michael-jordan-rebelled-against-load-management-years-before-it-was-even-a-thing/361915/) if he played MJ more than 14 mins during the Bulls push to make the playoffs. MJ worked to get back for a team that had no shot to win the championship that year and would most likely get thrown to the wolves in the first round even if they made the playoffs. He went above and beyond for the team.

Imagine MJ years later seeing Pippen do the opposite. Except this is for a championship contender and Pippen is a long time leader of the team. Of course, MJ would think Pippen was being selfish by delaying surgery. His teammates were collateral damage in Pippen's fight with management, something that never happened with MJ. And let it be known, Pippen publicly stated while he was out that he would never play with the Bulls again. He gave his teammates the idea that they would need to play the rest of the season without him. He left MJ to shoulder the load of most of that season alone at age 35. I can see why MJ would think Pippen's behavior was selfish. Especially considering that this was expected to be their last championship run together.

Excellent post!

[97 bulls]

And let's look at it from MJ's perspective since that is what caused this meltdown. On the one hand, MJ was underpaid by the Bulls for years. He did not threaten to sit out. He did not withhold his services. He did not strong-arm the Bulls by not being prepared for the season. He went out and got his money from Corporate America then when it was time to renegotiate, he nailed the Bulls to the wall. His contract situation never affected his team.

On the other hand, MJ broke his leg during his second season. He worked hard to get back as soon as possible despite management telling him to shut it down for the season. They even threatened the coach with his job (https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/michael-jordan-rebelled-against-load-management-years-before-it-was-even-a-thing/361915/) if he played MJ more than 14 mins during the Bulls push to make the playoffs. MJ worked to get back for a team that had no shot to win the championship that year and would most likely get thrown to the wolves in the first round even if they made the playoffs. He went above and beyond for the team.

Imagine MJ years later seeing Pippen do the opposite. Except this is for a championship contender and Pippen is a long time leader of the team. Of course, MJ would think Pippen was being selfish by delaying surgery. His teammates were collateral damage in Pippen's fight with management, something that never happened with MJ. And let it be known, Pippen publicly stated while he was out that he would never play with the Bulls again. He gave his teammates the idea that they would need to play the rest of the season without him. He left MJ to shoulder the load of most of that season alone at age 35. I can see why MJ would think Pippen's behavior was selfish. Especially considering that this was expected to be their last championship run together.

Pippen (the one that was considered soft) played with a back injury that the Bulls misdiagnosed. And Jordan didn't get nearly any kind of disrespect that Pippen did. You know I'm right. I listed the jacked up stuff the Bulls did to Pippen. And it wasnt only Pippen. They screwed over Horace Grant as well. The same for Scott Williams.

You guys are making this SOLELY about the contract. I named a bunch of messed up stuff the Bulls did to Pippen. You guys just disregard it.

Like is stated earlier. Jordan gets a pass on his messed up stuff. He left his team high and dry when he waited until the last minute to retire. He caused a big distraction when he was seen gambling during the playoffs in Atlanta, not to mention the gambling situation. And he never did stop.

But I get it. Jordan brought far more value to the league than anyone else.

[97 bulls]

97 Bulls getting exposed. :lebronamazed:

Exposed being correct.

[Soundwave]

Nobody has seriously argued in good faith that any one player *literally* wins a championship by himself. We all know every superstar player has had help in winning titles, it's a given.
The idea that only for Scottie Pippen does it need to be pointed out again and again that Jordan had some help ... like so what?

Magic and Bird always had more help than Jordan did, so did Isiah on the Pistons, those teams were insanely deep. So has Durant and Curry. Shaq had Kobe who's a top 10 player.

Does anyone always need to insert that "But Magic had James Worthy!!!" every 10 seconds like it's breaking news? Pippen is probably the most famous "no.2 option" in the history of basketball who isn't actually a top 25 player like Kobe or Kareem were. Is that not enough f**king praise and hype for this guy? How much more does he need? This is a player that gets more attention today still than even a player probably like Hakeem Olajuwon. How many Netflix TV series' does Hakeem or the Rockets have?

[97 bulls]

Soundwave;14797081]Nobody has seriously argued in good faith that any one player *literally* wins a championship by himself. We all know every superstar player has had help in winning titles, it's a given.
The idea that only for Scottie Pippen does it need to be pointed out again and again that Jordan had some help ... like so what?

Magic and Bird always had more help than Jordan did, so did Isiah on the Pistons, those teams were insanely deep. So has Durant and Curry. Shaq had Kobe who's a top 10 player.

Does anyone always need to insert that "But Magic had James Worthy!!!" every 10 seconds like it's breaking news? Pippen is probably the most famous "no.2 option" in the history of basketball who isn't actually a top 25 player like Kobe or Kareem were. Is that not enough f**king praise and hype for this guy? How much more does he need? This is a player that gets more attention today still than even a player probably like Hakeem Olajuwon. How many Netflix TV series' does Hakeem or the Rockets have?

And the bold is the issue. You backhanded insult Jordans teammates. And its in an effort to try to argue that Jordan won by himself. The fact is Jordan's teammates did better without him than Kobe when Shaq left, Worthy when Magic left, Dumars when Thomas left, McHale when Bird was hurt. Period

[theman93]

And let's look at it from MJ's perspective since that is what caused this meltdown. On the one hand, MJ was underpaid by the Bulls for years. He did not threaten to sit out. He did not withhold his services. He did not strong-arm the Bulls by not being prepared for the season. He went out and got his money from Corporate America then when it was time to renegotiate, he nailed the Bulls to the wall. His contract situation never affected his team.

On the other hand, MJ broke his leg during his second season. He worked hard to get back as soon as possible despite management telling him to shut it down for the season. They even threatened the coach with his job (https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/michael-jordan-rebelled-against-load-management-years-before-it-was-even-a-thing/361915/) if he played MJ more than 14 mins during the Bulls push to make the playoffs. MJ worked to get back for a team that had no shot to win the championship that year and would most likely get thrown to the wolves in the first round even if they made the playoffs. He went above and beyond for the team.

Imagine MJ years later seeing Pippen do the opposite. Except this is for a championship contender and Pippen is a long time leader of the team. Of course, MJ would think Pippen was being selfish by delaying surgery. His teammates were collateral damage in Pippen's fight with management, something that never happened with MJ. And let it be known, Pippen publicly stated while he was out that he would never play with the Bulls again. He gave his teammates the idea that they would need to play the rest of the season without him. He left MJ to shoulder the load of most of that season alone at age 35. I can see why MJ would think Pippen's behavior was selfish. Especially considering that this was expected to be their last championship run together.

Straight up facts.

[SlimReaper]

:lol

What is it with ish that attracts all kind of mentally unstable dumbasses?

This retard here is supposed to be a... ''Bulls fan'', yet with every single post he makes, he tries to discredit the best player in the history of ''his team'', while propping-up the archetype NBA robin :lol

Seriously it's like an asylum here :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

And the bold is the issue. You backhanded insult Jordans teammates. And its in an effort to try to argue that Jordan won by himself. The fact is Jordan's teammates did better without him than Kobe when Shaq left, Worthy when Magic left, Dumars when Thomas left, McHale when Bird was hurt. Period

No it isn't the issue.

Magic did have better teams to play on unless you're going to say Pippen is as good as Kareem and Grant is as good as Worthy etc. etc.

The Bulls were a mediocre team by 1995 when Jordan was coming back, and lets put some actual context into their one "magical year" ... they finished below the Atlanta Hawks in their division who were hardly a powerhouse of the 90s and then got eliminated in round 2.

The 91-92 Lakers won 43 games, made the playoffs, but they had far more severe injury problems than the Bulls. Worthy missed almost 30 games, Perkins also missed 20 games, that was their no.1 and no.3 scoring options with Magic gone, and Kareem of course long gone by then.

Vlade Divac missed almost 50 games. If those injuries weren't so severe, sure maybe that Lakers team does win 50+ and loses in round 2, instead of round 1, big whoop.

The Celtics were just done by the early 90s, too many injuries to a lot of their key players.

Saying that is not an "insult" to the Bulls. Saying the 80s Lakers or Celtics were deeper than the 90s Bulls is not an "insult", if you take it that way, that's your problem.

[Lebron23]

Jordan 1-9 record record without Pippen

never won a playoffs series before Pippen

[theman93]

No it isn't the issue.

Magic did have better teams to play on unless you're going to say Pippen is as good as Kareem and Grant is as good as Worthy etc. etc.

The Bulls were a mediocre team by 1995 when Jordan was coming back, and lets put some actual context into their one "magical year" ... they finished below the Atlanta Hawks in their division who were hardly a powerhouse of the 90s and then got eliminated in round 2.

The 91-92 Lakers won 43 games, made the playoffs, but they had far more severe injury problems than the Bulls. Worthy missed almost 30 games, Perkins also missed 20 games, that was their no.1 and no.3 scoring options with Magic gone, and Kareem of course long gone by then.

Vlade Divac missed almost 50 games. If those injuries weren't so severe, sure maybe that Lakers team does win 50+ and loses in round 2, instead of round 1, big whoop.

The Celtics were just done by the early 90s, too many injuries to a lot of their key players.

Saying that is not an "insult" to the Bulls. Saying the 80s Lakers or Celtics were deeper than the 90s Bulls is not an "insult", if you take it that way, that's your problem.

Yeah, I love how 1995 gets so conveniently glossed over...they were on a measly 43 win pace. And that 1994 team was in no way special. Their net rating and SRS were not even top 10 in the league even though they won 55 games.

[97 bulls]

No it isn't the issue.

Magic did have better teams to play on unless you're going to say Pippen is as good as Kareem and Grant is as good as Worthy etc. etc.
Depends kn what year youre talking about. Jabaar and Worthys primes dont really coincide with each other. By 87, Kareem was a shell of his former self. Before 87, Worthy was good. Id take Pippen and Rodman over any combination of Worthy and Jabaar.


The Bulls were a mediocre team by 1995 when Jordan was coming back, and lets put some actual context into their one "magical year" ... they finished below the Atlanta Hawks in their division who were hardly a powerhouse of the 90s and then got eliminated in round 2.
That tends to happen when you keep losing key pieces of your team and fail to properly replace them the Bulls didnt do a good job replacing Jordan and Grant.


The 91-92 Lakers won 43 games, made the playoffs, but they had far more severe injury problems than the Bulls. Worthy missed almost 30 games, Perkins also missed 20 games, that was their no.1 and no.3 scoring options with Magic gone, and Kareem of course long gone by then.


They were 28-26 when Worthy played. And, unlike the Bulls when Jordan retired, the Lakers went out and got a good PG to replace Magic in Sedale Threat.


Vlade Divac missed almost 50 games. If those injuries weren't so severe, sure maybe that Lakers team does win 50+ and loses in round 2, instead of round 1, big whoop.

The Bulls had injuries to key players too. Scott Williams and Stacey King missed alot of games. They played big roles in the Bulls 3pt. Cartwright was done. And Pippen and Grant misses time.


The Celtics were just done by the early 90s, too many injuries to a lot of their key players.
What about 89? They were one year removed from the ECF and fortunately for them, took advantage of expansion. And don't forget that they replaced Larry Bird with Reggie Lewis.


Saying that is not an "insult" to the Bulls. Saying the 80s Lakers or Celtics were deeper than the 90s Bulls is not an "insult", if you take it that way, that's your problem.

I disagree with your biased assessment and checked you. And I'll go further, you're a stats whore. Put the 90s Bulls in the 80s, and their stats are much better looking.

[97 bulls]

Yeah, I love how 1995 gets so conveniently glossed over...they were on a measly 43 win pace. And that 1994 team was in no way special. Their net rating and SRS were not even top 10 in the league even though they won 55 games.

Typical Jordanite rhetoric. 95 is never glossed over. They lost Grant that year. After losing Jordan the previous year. But when it comes to Jordan's teammates, common sense goes right out the window. You can't keep losing talent and expect the team to not miss a beat.

[Baller789]

Exposed being correct.

Nah man. Exposed for being a Pip homer.

[RogueBorg]

:lol

What is it with ish that attracts all kind of mentally unstable dumbasses?

This retard here is supposed to be a... ''Bulls fan'', yet with every single post he makes, he tries to discredit the best player in the history of ''his team'', while propping-up the archetype NBA robin :lol

Seriously it's like an asylum here :oldlol:

He's an embarrassment of a Bulls fan.

[Soundwave]

Depends kn what year youre talking about. Jabaar and Worthys primes dont really coincide with each other. By 87, Kareem was a shell of his former self. Before 87, Worthy was good. Id take Pippen and Rodman over any combination of Worthy and Jabaar.


That tends to happen when you keep losing key pieces of your team and fail to properly replace them the Bulls didnt do a good job replacing Jordan and Grant.




They were 28-26 when Worthy played. And, unlike the Bulls when Jordan retired, the Lakers went out and got a good PG to replace Magic in Sedale Threat.



The Bulls had injuries to key players too. Scott Williams and Stacey King missed alot of games. They played big roles in the Bulls 3pt. Cartwright was done. And Pippen and Grant misses time.


What about 89? They were one year removed from the ECF and fortunately for them, took advantage of expansion. And don't forget that they replaced Larry Bird with Reggie Lewis.



I disagree with your biased assessment and checked you. And I'll go further, you're a stats whore. Put the 90s Bulls in the 80s, and their stats are much better looking.

I wouldn't take Pippen and Rodman over Kareem & Worthy, but even brushing that aside, the Lakers had other players like Byron Scott, Mychal Thompson, AC Green who could also play. 84-85 and 85-86 Kareem + Worthy are easily better than any 95/96 or 96/97 or 97/98 version of Pippen/Rodman.

Rodman specifically was starting to really lose it after that first year with the Bulls where he was great, but he told was getting old by '97 and increasingly difficult to control, there's a reason Phil Jackson started to use Bison Dele more and more in that '97 season.

The Bulls 93-94 had some injuries but no where what the 91-92 Lakers had it's just straight up lying to say it was similar. If Pippen missed 30 games in 93-94, BJ Armstrong missed 20, and Kukoc missed 50+ games ... what do you supposed the Bulls record is? Probably 43 wins if they're lucky. It's also very psychologically different, in 1991/92, people though Magic was literally going to die. When Jordan retired, people immediately started saying he would be back, he was still healthy and in his prime-ish, and he was back 18 months later. One is a far bigger gut punch for a team to take.

Also I love the excuse that Pippen gets post-Bulls is "well he was hurt!!!", well Worthy was pretty much breaking down by 91-92, he only played one 69 game season after that at numbers well below his norm and then basically had to retire.

You're lying to yourself if you're going to say the Bulls literally had the same talent level as the 80s Lakers or Celtics, they clearly never did. Run a poll if you want, I doubt anyone would pick the Bulls supporting cast over the Lakers or Celtics of the 80s.

[theman93]

Typical Jordanite rhetoric. 95 is never glossed over. They lost Grant that year. After losing Jordan the previous year. But when it comes to Jordan's teammates, common sense goes right out the window. You can't keep losing talent and expect the team to not miss a beat.
Says the Pippen nut hugger :rolleyes:. When the conversation arises regarding what Pippen could do without MJ, the common narrative is to raise 1994 in all its shining glory (even though they were an extremely weak 55 win team by the metrics) and ignore 1995. That’s just the facts.

[97 bulls]

I wouldn't take Pippen and Rodman over Kareem & Worthy, but even brushing that aside, the Lakers had other players like Byron Scott, Mychal Thompson, AC Green who could also play. 84-85 and 85-86 Kareem + Worthy are easily better than any 95/96 or 96/97 or 97/98 version of Pippen/Rodman.

Rodman specifically was starting to really lose it after that first year with the Bulls where he was great, but he told was getting old by '97 and increasingly difficult to control, there's a reason Phil Jackson started to use Bison Dele more and more in that '97 season.
Dele never started (even though he was a damn good pick up). Rodman was a bigbreaskn for the Bulls winning the Championship in 98. Theres videos on Youtube showong the job that he did on Malone defensively. Most of Malones success came against Longley and others. Ive posted those videos in this forum, but youre such a Jordan homer you dont really give a damn about the other players contributions outside of Jordan.

The second 3pt Bulls had the best 3pt shooter ever (statistically) in Steve Kerr, one of thr best European players ever in Toni Kukoc, Harper was a greag defender and probably still could score the ball if needed, seeing as how the year before he came to the Bulls he was averaging almost 20ppg. I don't feel the 1st 3pt team was as good as the 2nd and they destroyed the Lakers and Pistons. See, I don't go with my heart, I actually base my opinion on what actually happened. If the Showtime Lakers could only muster up 1 fluke win against the Bulls and the Bad Boy Pistons couldn't even get one win off them, I don't see how adding an old Kareem and even Michael Cooper would've swung that series that much.


The Bulls 93-94 had some injuries but no where what the 91-92 Lakers had it's just straight up lying to say it was similar. If Pippen missed 30 games in 93-94, BJ Armstrong missed 20, and Kukoc missed 50+ games ... what do you supposed the Bulls record is? Probably 43 wins if they're lucky. It's also very psychologically different, in 1991/92, people though Magic was literally going to die. When Jordan retired, people immediately started saying he would be back, he was still healthy and in his prime-ish, and he was back 18 months later. One is a far bigger gut punch for a team to take.
I cant say how the Lakers or Bulls felt when they lost their best players lol. But as I said before, the Bulls did miss key players in 94. Scott Williams, Stacey King, missed alot of time, Pippen and Grant Missed over 20 games together. And the Bulls unlike the Lakers, werent able to even try to properly replace MJ. Even a decent SG or a good one like Kendall Gill would've probably netted the Bulls another title seeing as how the Knicks needed a bad call and 7 games to beat the Bulls. And keep in mind that the Knicks lost in 7 games to the Rockets. And probably win the Championship in 94 if Starks doesn't go 3-18. He just had an off night. And it wasn't because of great defense. Most of those shots he took were open shots. He just missed.



Also I love the excuse that Pippen gets post-Bulls is "well he was hurt!!!", well Worthy was pretty much breaking down by 91-92, he only played one 69 game season after that at numbers well below his norm and then basically had to retire.
It happens. Again I can only go by deductive reasoning. The Lakers were 28-26 in the games Worthy played in.


You're lying to yourself if you're going to say the Bulls literally had the same talent level as the 80s Lakers or Celtics, they clearly never did. Run a poll if you want, I doubt anyone would pick the Bulls supporting cast over the Lakers or Celtics of the 80s.
Like I stated, we saw what those teams were without their best players. I don't have to run a poll lol. Especially not on here with all these trolls and multiple account whores. If these teams were so much better, it stands to reason that they should've faired better when their best player wasn't there for an extended period of time.

[97 bulls]

Says the Pippen nut hugger :rolleyes:. When the conversation arises regarding what Pippen could do without MJ, the common narrative is to raise 1994 in all its shining glory (even though they were an extremely weak 55 win team by the metrics) and ignore 1995. That’s just the facts.

Lol. I already addressed 95 bro. I said they lost Grant, Stacey King, and Scott Williams. Those were their best bigs in the 3pt. And like Jordan, they did a horrible job replacing them. You can't keep hemorrhaging talent and not expect to see a drop in success. It's why Pippen ended up leading the team in the 5 major statistical categories. They had no interior presence to speak off. For intents and purposes, Kukoc was tall, but he wasn't a big. And they had him playing PF. Longley was trying to find his way. Put those guys back on the Bulls (especially Grant) and they're a mid 50 win team again. Personally, I feel guys like Longley and Kukoc would be much better today.

It never ceases to amaze me that on a forum full of so-called basketball fans, you'd think that you'd find people that understand the intricacies of the game better. That success (meaning winning not just scoring) requires a multitude of aspects. Defense, rebounding, teamwork, intangibles.

[FilmyCogTurner]

97 bulls I thought you were one of the more reasonable posters on this board but you have gone full on 3ball levels with this and you're talking to a guy who's favorite player growing up was SCOTTIE PIPPEN lol

[Soundwave]

The 91-93 Bulls were better than the 96-98 Bulls too, the 2nd threepeat just gets more hyped because of the Jordan comeback story arc and Rodman being a crazy character.

But with Rodman they were effectively playing 4 on 5 offensively.

Rodman was very good in the 96 playoffs, but he started to fall off after that and Pippen was (full credit) wonderful defensively, but his offence was decidedly mediocre by the 2nd threepeat in basically all their playoff runs.

Rodman (playoffs)
95-96 - 13.7 rpg
96-97 - 8.4 rpg (not great)
97-98 - 11.8 rpg (better but still not worth the lack of offensive production)

Pippen (playoffs)
95-96 - 16.9 ppg on 39% shooting (poor)
96-97 - 19.2 ppg on 41% shooting (better, but still awful shooting)
97-98 - 16.8 ppg on 41% shooting (poor)

Kerr replaced Paxson, but honestly John Paxson is a better player. Losing BJ Armstrong to the expansion draft for the washed up Ron Harper sucked big time too. Rodman scored a lot less than Grant. Kukoc being the best European player is some what overstated too, Kukoc even for his time was not as good of a player as Drazen Petrovic or Detlef Schrempf or probably even Vlade Divac (there's a reason the Hornets were willing to trade the Kobe Bryant pick for him, he was a solid center).

As 97bulls himself says, the Bulls management was fairly passive and not very aggressive in getting talent to come in. They got lucky a baseball strike brought them back Jordan and Rodman fell into their laps because no one else could control him, but they never built teams as loaded as the 80s Lakers or 80s Celtics. They just point blank did not.

[97 bulls]

97 bulls I thought you were one of the more reasonable posters on this board but you have gone full on 3ball levels with this and you're talking to a guy who's favorite player growing up was SCOTTIE PIPPEN lol

Lol. Whatever bro. If this is the way you talk about your favorite player, I'd hate to see how you talk about one you hate.

[warriorfan]

Lol. Whatever bro. If this is the way you talk about your favorite player, I'd hate to see how you talk about one you hate.

you are a clown

[theman93]

Lol. I already addressed 95 bro. I said they lost Grant, Stacey King, and Scott Williams. Those were their best bigs in the 3pt. And like Jordan, they did a horrible job replacing them. You can't keep hemorrhaging talent and not expect to see a drop in success. It's why Pippen ended up leading the team in the 5 major statistical categories. They had no interior presence to speak off. For intents and purposes, Kukoc was tall, but he wasn't a big. And they had him playing PF. Longley was trying to find his way. Put those guys back on the Bulls (especially Grant) and they're a mid 50 win team again. Personally, I feel guys like Longley and Kukoc would be much better today.

It never ceases to amaze me that on a forum full of so-called basketball fans, you'd think that you'd find people that understand the intricacies of the game better. That success (meaning winning not just scoring) requires a multitude of aspects. Defense, rebounding, teamwork, intangibles.

Hemorrhaging talent? Stacy King and Scott Williams were certified scrubs dude just stop. They only played in 31 and 38 games respectively and were 10th and 11th in minutes per game. The only real loss was Grant. Kukoc took a significant step forward and they also added Harper. You want to belittle posters for not knowing the game when you're on here claiming the loss of Stacy King and Scott Williams was hemorrhaging talent? LOL :roll::roll::roll:

[97 bulls]

The 91-93 Bulls were better than the 96-98 Bulls too, the 2nd threepeat just gets more hyped because of the Jordan comeback story arc and Rodman being a crazy character.

But with Rodman they were effectively playing 4 on 5 offensively.

Rodman was very good in the 96 playoffs, but he started to fall off after that and Pippen was (full credit) wonderful defensively, but his offence was decidedly mediocre by the 2nd threepeat in basically all their playoff runs.

Rodman (playoffs)
95-96 - 13.7 rpg
96-97 - 8.4 rpg (not great)
97-98 - 11.8 rpg (better but still not worth the lack of offensive production)

Pippen (playoffs)
95-96 - 16.9 ppg on 39% shooting (poor)
96-97 - 19.2 ppg on 41% shooting (better, but still awful shooting)
97-98 - 16.8 ppg on 41% shooting (poor)

Kerr replaced Paxson, but honestly John Paxson is a better player. Losing BJ Armstrong to the expansion draft for the washed up Ron Harper sucked big time too. Rodman scored a lot less than Grant. Kukoc being the best European player is some what overstated too, Kukoc even for his time was not as good of a player as Drazen Petrovic or Detlef Schrempf or probably even Vlade Divac (there's a reason the Hornets were willing to trade the Kobe Bryant pick for him, he was a solid center).

As 97bulls himself says, the Bulls management was fairly passive and not very aggressive in getting talent to come in. They got lucky a baseball strike brought them back Jordan and Rodman fell into their laps because no one else could control him, but they never built teams as loaded as the 80s Lakers or 80s Celtics. They just point blank did not.

As I said previously. You're about stats. The 2nd 3pt Bulls were essentially the second 94' Bulls with a rested Michal Jordan, an upgrade at at the other guard spot in Ron Harper over Pete Myers. And a more experienced Toni Kukoc, and an upgrade in Rodman over Grant. And that team won 55 games.

Stats are an interesting thing. I said earlier, that's all you're good for. I'm more interested I'm success and winning.

[97 bulls]

And I'm sick of the lie that Dennis Rodman was washed up in 97 and 98. These videos show the job Rodman did on Karl Malone in 98. To say he wasn't a big reason the Bulls won the Championship in 98 is a bold faced lie. I call it a lie because I assume I'm conversing with fans in the know.



https://youtu.be/eC0B-9Ma-8M
https://youtu.be/LksCGBWXWds
https://youtu.be/EglLZwE_frI

[97 bulls]

And here's game 2


https://youtu.be/xc17rxedajY

[97 bulls]

And for the record. Rodman was also playing hurt in 97. This is what I'm saying. The Bulls get no respect outside of MJ. And if you call it out, you're somehow not a Bulls fan. SMH. I'm not a Jordan homer. I can still feel Jordan is the GOAT and also feel that he had a great team around him. He played with 3 other Hall of Famers, and two coaches that are in the Hall of Fame. And the alltime most efficient 3pt shooter.

Here's an article talking about Rodmans injury. Every other player has concessions made for them outside of the Bulls other than Jordan.
https://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/27/sports/bulls-lose-rodman-for-last-13-games.html

[97 bulls]

And this is why I call the Bulls fans ungrateful. Calling Rodman washed up when there's actual video evidence of him shutting down an Alltime great? Why are so called Bulls fans like Rougberg DaRealist not defending Rodman like they do Jordan? Because they're Jordan fans. Jordan having teammates was nothing more than a necessary evil.

[Soundwave]

Yes Rodman played good defence, but provided basically very little offence, on top of that you have Pippen with mediocre offence in the playoffs as well, at least 2/3 second 3 peat years.

That 98 title in particular was a slog to get done.

Sorry but you even state the Bulls management was slow in bringing in talent, and that did magically change 96-98 really either. They got lucky Jordan came back and no one else wanted Rodman because he was a headcase. Even in Chicago by 97-98 Rodman was flying off the wall and becoming almost impossible to control.

The 80s Lakers and 80s Celtics were always more talented overall.

Saying that doesn't mean OMG YOU ONLY CAREZ ABOUT THE STATSSSSSSS, lol. That's just acting like 8 year old who throws a fit when he doesn't get the ice cream he wants.

The first 3-peat Bulls (91-93) were better than the 2nd 3-peat Bulls (96-98).

Bulls management was frankly lazy, they never went the extra mile to really load up the team and give them really great scoring depth in particular because they figured they'd just ride Jordan in that respect, but having great defenders obviously mitigated that a lot.

[1987_Lakers]

97 bulls is more of a bulls fan than every MJ stan on here, we used to get into heated debates about 80's Celtics-Lakers vs 90's bulls on this site over a decade ago and he never bad mouthed MJ during those debates, BUT he does tend to overrate every player on those 90's bulls. :lol

[97 bulls]

97 bulls is more of a bulls fan than every MJ stan on here, we used to get into heated debates about 80's Celtics-Lakers vs 90's bulls on this site over a decade ago and he never bad mouthed MJ during those debates, BUT he does tend to overrate every player on those 90's bulls. :lol

Lol. Then I guess we all overrate our favorite players. But you know I'm a legit Bulls fan. Not a Jordan homer. Or honestly, not even a Pippen homer. They all had a role in the Bulls' success. There's stuff that Pippen says about Jordan that I think is nuts. But he does make valid points.

[97 bulls]

Yes Rodman played good defence, but provided basically very little offence, on top of that you have Pippen with mediocre offence in the playoffs as well, at least 2/3 second 3 peat years.

That 98 title in particular was a slog to get done.

Sorry but you even state the Bulls management was slow in bringing in talent, and that did magically change 96-98 really either. They got lucky Jordan came back and no one else wanted Rodman because he was a headcase. Even in Chicago by 97-98 Rodman was flying off the wall and becoming almost impossible to control.

The 80s Lakers and 80s Celtics were always more talented overall.

Saying that doesn't mean OMG YOU ONLY CAREZ ABOUT THE STATSSSSSSS, lol. That's just acting like 8 year old who throws a fit when he doesn't get the ice cream he wants.

The first 3-peat Bulls (91-93) were better than the 2nd 3-peat Bulls (96-98).

Bulls management was frankly lazy, they never went the extra mile to really load up the team and give them really great scoring depth in particular because they figured they'd just ride Jordan in that respect, but having great defenders obviously mitigated that a lot.

Rodmans job wasn't to score bro. This is why I say you're not very well versed when it comes to basketball. The Bulls didn't bring in Rodman to score. They brought him in for interior defense and rebounding. And he was great. I honestly don't give a damn as to how well any team plays statistically so long as they win. Even when you're talking about 4 on 5 on offense. Try doing that against Rodman and he'll end up grabbing 25 rebounds with 10-12 being offensive.

The Bulls weren't going out and trying to find great scorers because they didn't need it. And I honestly don't feel putting another great scorer next to Jordan would've netted them anymore success. We saw on the Dreamteam that he would still take the lions share of the shots even if he didn't have to. That was the beauty of the Bulls. Guys knew their roles and were great at it.

[theman93]

Remember guys, losing Stacy King and Scott Williams in 1995 was hemorrhaging talent.......even though they only played in 31 and 38 games respectively and were 10th and 11th in minutes per game for Chicago in 1994. :roll: I cant even with 97bu11s anymore

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-04-2016/tF7yeb.gif

https://media.tenor.com/TYSSCqxMZuEAAAAC/stephen-smith-stephen-a-smith.gif

[97 bulls]

Remember guys, losing Stacy King and Scott Williams in 1995 was hemorrhaging talent.......even though they only played in 31 and 38 games respectively and were 10th and 11th in minutes per game for Chicago in 1994. :roll: I cant even with 97bu11s anymore

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-04-2016/tF7yeb.gif

https://media.tenor.com/TYSSCqxMZuEAAAAC/stephen-smith-stephen-a-smith.gif

Not just losing your two best interior defenders. Also Horace Grant and Michael Jordan. That's 4 key peices to the Bulls 3pt.

[theman93]

Not just losing your two best interior defenders. Also Horace Grant and Michael Jordan. That's 4 key peices to the Bulls 3pt.

Losing Grant and MJ is hemorrhaging talent. Losing Stacey King and Scott mfing Williams is losing scrubs that can be replaced by any other stiff lmao

[97 bulls]

Losing Grant and MJ is hemorrhaging talent. Losing Stacey King and Scott mfing Williams is losing scrubs that can be replaced by any other stiff lmao

Stacey King and Scott Williams were the Bulls best bigs off the bench during their 1st 3pt. You alluded to 95 and why the Bulls were getting progressively worse. That's why. You can't keep losing key players off yoir championship team, not replace them, and expect not to see a drop in success. I'm not saying those guys were difference makers, but they were contributors. Williams and King.

[theman93]

Stacey King and Scott Williams were the Bulls best bigs off the bench during their 1st 3pt. You alluded to 95 and why the Bulls were getting progressively worse. That's why. You can't keep losing key players off yoir championship team, not replace them, and expect not to see a drop in success. I'm not saying those guys were difference makers, but they were contributors. Williams and King.

No, the Bulls got progressively worse because they lost MJ, and then they lost Grant. There was nothing key about Williams and King that the other stiff bigs in 1995 couldn't replace. The only reason they were "contributors" was because they just so happened to be there. Replace them with any other stiff in the 90's and the Bulls 3peat regardless. Stop being ridiculous.

[97 bulls]

No, the Bulls got progressively worse because they lost MJ, and then they lost Grant. There was nothing key about Williams and King that the other stiff bigs in 1995 couldn't replace. The only reason they were "contributors" was because they just so happened to be there. Replace them with any other stiff in the 90's and the Bulls 3peat regardless. Stop being ridiculous.

Lol. I don't want to go another few pages arguing the relevance of Scott Williams and Stacey King. I'm not saying those two are the sole reason the Bulls won 3 titles. I'm just saying the Bulls missed their interior defense and toughness. They were the Bulls backup PF and Center for 3 titles.

[FilmyCogTurner]

annnnddd we are officially off the rails with this thread. Scott Williams and Stacey King.

https://media.tenor.com/3cBqGgURojAAAAAd/robert-downey-jr-facepalm.gif

[97 bulls]

annnnddd we are officially off the rails with this thread. Scott Williams and Stacey King.

https://media.tenor.com/3cBqGgURojAAAAAd/robert-downey-jr-facepalm.gif

Lol

[theman93]

Lol. I don't want to go another few pages arguing the relevance of Scott Williams and Stacey King. I'm not saying those two are the sole reason the Bulls won 3 titles. I'm just saying the Bulls missed their interior defense and toughness. They were the Bulls backup PF and Center for 3 titles.

The Bulls missing their interior defense and toughness in 1995 had everything to do with losing Grant and absolutely nothing to do with those certified scrubs. I don't agree with 1987_Lakers much, but he is absolutely correct here. You are massively overrating those bums.

[theman93]

annnnddd we are officially off the rails with this thread. Scott Williams and Stacey King.

https://media.tenor.com/3cBqGgURojAAAAAd/robert-downey-jr-facepalm.gif

https://64.media.tumblr.com/8439c348ad889b14007b722f42c1d376/28e8acd7d7b93a6d-e4/s500x750/c9072f18924ce1b02a6e5d28cceefb3199bac032.gif

[97 bulls]

The Bulls missing their interior defense and toughness in 1995 had everything to do with losing Grant and absolutely nothing to do with those certified scrubs. I don't agree with 1987_Lakers much, but he is absolutely correct here. You are massively overrating those bums.

They weren't bums. Larry Krystowiak, the guy that started 15 games for the Bulls in 95 was a bum. But you're obviously entitled to your opinion.

[FilmyCogTurner]

97 bulls I respect your loyalty I was a long time devoted Bulls fan but had to hang up my fandom

[97 bulls]

97 bulls I respect your loyalty I was a long time devoted Bulls fan but had to hang up my fandom

I'm honestly starting to see that as well. But we'll always have the memories.

[FilmyCogTurner]

See that with yourself or other Bulls fans you mean?

[97 bulls]

See that with yourself or other Bulls fans you mean?

Myself as a Bulls fan. The organization just isn't serious about contending. Since the breakup of the Bulls Dynasty in 98, the Bulls have had 1 ECF appearance. In over 20 years. That's sad. The Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, have all been back and won. They're just not serious about winning. I remember Reisdorf saying something along the lines that he didn't care about basketball.

[Soundwave]

Myself as a Bulls fan. The organization just isn't serious about contending. Since the breakup of the Bulls Dynasty in 98, the Bulls have had 1 ECF appearance. In over 20 years. That's sad. The Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, have all been back and won. They're just not serious about winning. I remember Reisdorf saying something along the lines that he didn't care about basketball.

They never have been. The fluked out into Jordan and then really just did work in that 87 draft (Pippen + Grant) for which they deserve credit, but that's one year they put in work. Otherwise they've been mediocre as a franchise in terms of finding talent, drafting, etc. etc. It's not that shocking that they've done dick all since 1998. I never liked trading Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright.

Look at dynasties like the Spurs that had DRob + Tim Duncan + Sean Elliot as their initial core, then revamped it with Manu + Parker and other good players, then they find Kawhi Leonard as well.

Lakers kept bringing in good players like Divac, Perkins, etc. even after Kareem left for Magic to play with, then had a fun little group there with guys like Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Elden Campbell, then get Shaq and draft Kobe in the same summer, and Shaq/Kobe for most of their careers there always had a lot of talent to play with.

It sucks because it would be good for the NBA if the Bulls could ever be back in the final 4 at least but Reinsdorf sucks, he doesn't care about basketball. Team has won more than 50 games once in 25 years, that's ridiculous.

[FilmyCogTurner]

Trading their second round draft pick for cash considerations during a rebuild was all I needed to know as a Bulls fan.

Honestly I don't need a title contending team but at least show the signs of an organization that's trying to build something of value for the fans to get behind. I enjoyed the bad years of Brand/Artest, Curry/Chandler/Crawford, Kirk/BG/Deng, at least then I felt the ownership cared about competing.

[97 bulls]

Trading their second round draft pick for cash considerations during a rebuild was all I needed to know as a Bulls fan.

Honestly I don't need a title contending team but at least show the signs of an organization that's trying to build something of value for the fans to get behind. I enjoyed the bad years of Brand/Artest, Curry/Chandler/Crawford, Kirk/BG/Deng, at least then I felt the ownership cared about competing.

I knew the Bulls was full of it when they traded Jason Caffey for David Vaughn in 98. I knew then that Krause was intentionally trying to sabotage the teams chance at another 3peat by thinning out their depth. Caffey was a solid backup that played really well in 97 when Rodman had his issues. Here what Rodman and Jordan thought about the trade



Caffey's ex-teammates did not take kindly to his departure, or to their new teammate, David Vaughn, who went from the Warriors along with two future second-round draft picks. "It was a dumb move," Dennis Rodman said after the Bulls' win Thursday in Toronto. "I don't know anything about (Vaughn). Does he play? Jason will probably get more playing time in Golden State. But it's an unfortunate situation in that he is being traded to a team that ain't going nowhere."

Added Michael Jordan, "I don't know anything about Vaughn. Every time I've seen him, he's never been in uniform. I think that says a lot right there from my standpoint. I hate to see Jason go. I'm pretty sure it was a business move."

https://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/WARRIORS-NOTEBOOK-Bulls-Knock-Caffey-Deal-3012964.php

[97 bulls]

Trading their second round draft pick for cash considerations during a rebuild was all I needed to know as a Bulls fan.

Honestly I don't need a title contending team but at least show the signs of an organization that's trying to build something of value for the fans to get behind. I enjoyed the bad years of Brand/Artest, Curry/Chandler/Crawford, Kirk/BG/Deng, at least then I felt the ownership cared about competing.

I had to say this also. Think about the great players that the Bulls did have. Jimmy Butler, Ron Artest, Elton Brand, Jamal Crawford. They've never been able to hit on a big name player through FA.

[Soundwave]

Reinsdorf/Krause just did the bare minimum to give the dynasty era Bulls enough to work with, never much beyond that. It worked (especially in the 90s) but it wasn't the perfect ideal IMO.

Organizations like the Lakers, Celtics (80s) and Spurs (more modern day) or Golden State Warriors (modern day) did a lot more to surround their superstars with a continual flow of good talent coming into the roster all the time. Pistons of the 80s also built a very deep team, deeper than the Bulls management did.

Magic/Kareem got to play with Bob McAdoo, I still don't understand how they got James Worthy when they already had Magic/Kareem (I mean this guy would be a franchise player on many teams and a good one at that), Jamaal Wilkes, added Byron Scott and Cooper, A.C. Green, etc. etc. etc. Even when Magic retired within a couple of years they had a fairly exciting group of young players even before getting Shaq and the highway robbery of taking Kobe from the Hornets.

That is top end management.

[bdonovan]

Do you agree with the level of meltdown that Pippen has been on so far? I don’t know this for a fact but if we reversed the situation and Pippen had called MJ selfish, do you think MJ would go nonstop spewing out BS after BS? I just think it’s unfortunate that whatever good memories that bulls, mj or pip fans had are just being ruined just because someone wanted to overreact and not even know when to stop.

MJ would go nuts and people would say "It's because he's SUCH a competitor about everything!"

MJ was pretty petty too, cutting out Charles Barkley because of some comment Barkley made about the Hornets.

Was even pettier when he dissed his high school coach at his Hall of Fame speech.

Pippen gives Jordan a taste of his own medicine and people go berzerk.

"This was a night to leave behind the petty grievances and past slights – real and imagined. This was a night to be gracious, to be generous with praise and credit.

"M.J. was introduced as the greatest player ever and he's still standing there trying to settle scores," one Hall of Famer said privately later.

Jordan didn't hurt his image with the NBA community as much as he reminded them of it. "That's who Michael is," one high-ranking team executive said. "It wasn't like he was out of character. There's no one else who could've gotten away with what he did tonight. But it was Michael, and everyone just goes along."

Jordan wandered through an unfocused and uninspired speech at Symphony Hall, disparaging people who had little to do with his career, like Jeff Van Gundy and Bryon Russell. He ignored people who had so much to do with it, like his personal trainer, Tim Grover. This had been a moving and inspirational night for the NBA – one of its best ceremonies ever – and five minutes into Jordan's speech it began to spiral into something else. Something unworthy of Jordan's stature, something beneath him.

Jordan spent more time pointlessly admonishing Van Gundy and Russell for crossing him with taunts a dozen years ago than he did singling out his three children."
https://sports.yahoo.com/news/jordans-night-remember-turns-petty-075600787--nba.html

[HoopsNY]

Thanks bro. You're one of my favorites as well. But I'd like to ask, where am I being unreasonable here?allow me to rehash Scottie Pippens history with the Bulls, Jordan, and the fans

Sure thing, let's hear it...


In Pippens rookie year, he starts having back issues. He tell management, they send him to the team doctors, and they say there's nothing wrong with him. He continues to play with the back pain, and as it gets worse, he seeks a second opinion. Come to find out he needs to have back surgery. Pippen averaged 7ppg. And many fans call him a bum, while overlooking the fact that he played his rookie year with a bad back.

I'm not as old as you are, so that season wasn't one that I saw. I've never heard of people calling rookie Pippen a bum in '87-'88. Was that really the case?


Pippens migraine game. Fans don't give a damn that Pippens father died 2 weeks before that game 7. He played over 49 minutes that night for the Bulls. And all people could say is Pippen is soft.

Maybe because he played just fine in 45 minutes of game 6 where he put up 19/2/5/3 on 54%? In fact, in the first 6 games of the series, Scottie put up 19/7/4/2 on 56% TS%. If he was performing just fine up to that point, then why should he be excused for game 7?


Pippen hurts his foot in the 97 Playoffs. And he need surgery, he plays on that bad foot in the Finals and people call him a scrub. Not only that, but then, about a week or two after that finals, Krause publicly acknowledges that he's willing to trade Pippen.

I certainly don't recall this. I remember nothing but praises for Pippen in the '97 finals. As for trading Pippen, that's really par for the course in the NBA, especially since there were talks about trading him for T-Mac at the time. I don't think that's disrespectful. I think that's management being management given Scottie's health and age.


Jordan calls him selfish in the Last Dance for what he perceived as leaving him high and dry. Totally forgetting all the aforementioned incidents that Pippen went through. Jordan sided with the management.

Yea, because he could have easily done it during the summer. In fact, that was the logical thing to do. But he purposefully spited the team. Clearly there's a difference. The situation is also not akin to MJ's retirement because MJ was told to take the summer to think about it. And retirement is a tough call when you're in your absolute peak of your career.

Scottie was just being a bitch. He was hurt and decided he'd legitimately try to sabotage the team. I'm really not sure why you're defending him here.


Pippen retires, some time later, he takes a job with the Bulls as an ambassador. They ask him to take on more assignments and he says he will if they pay him enough to quit working at ESPN. They fire him. Lol. They actually wanted him to do more work but not pay him more.

So Scottie couldn't negotiate a better contract, then blames the organization for it? Ya don't say.


I'm reading all these things that happened to Pippen during his tenure with the Bulls. And you say I'm being ridiculous?

Yes.

[97 bulls]

I'm not as old as you are, so that season wasn't one that I saw. I've never heard of people calling rookie Pippen a bum in '87-'88. Was that really the case?
I see it all the time. I think you just don't pay attention to it based on your comments.




Maybe because he played just fine in 45 minutes of game 6 where he put up 19/2/5/3 on 54%? In fact, in the first 6 games of the series, Scottie put up 19/7/4/2 on 56% TS%. If he was performing just fine up to that point, then why should he be excused for game 7?

And this is why I say people want Pippen to be a robot. Remeber, eveeyone knew Pippen had that migraine BEFORE THE GAME STARTED. He didnt pull a Lebron James and blame a headache after he had a bad game. People talk about Pippen saying the the pressure got to him. Totally omitting that he was playing while mourning his fathers death only a few week prior. Maybe his dads death, the fact that the previous year, he was kicked the head and rendered unconscious, and had a concussion, along with the other violent plays lobbied against him by the Pistons, and the game finality of a game 7, was just too much. You feel he just should've overcame it all. Right?



I certainly don't recall this. I remember nothing but praises for Pippen in the '97 finals. As for trading Pippen, that's really par for the course in the NBA, especially since there were talks about trading him for T-Mac at the time. I don't think that's disrespectful. I think that's management being management given Scottie's health and age.
How often are dynasties trying to trade key pieces of their championship team? Thats nowhere near par for the course. No matter how old. And thats the point. There was no loyalty to Pippen.




Yea, because he could have easily done it during the summer. In fact, that was the logical thing to do. But he purposefully spited the team. Clearly there's a difference. The situation is also not akin to MJ's retirement because MJ was told to take the summer to think about it. And retirement is a tough call when you're in your absolute peak of your career.
The Bulls could have easily renegotiated his contract. And it's doesn't matter. We're talking about setting aside ones own personal interest for the good of the team. Reinsdorf telling Jordan to take the offseason to make a decison, doesn't mean he had to do it. It's well documented that Reisndorf didn't even care about the Bulls. But was supposed to. So why leave yoir teammates high and dry like that? I have no problem with what Jordan did. I have a problem with the inconsistencies and the different set of rules applied to both players.


Scottie was just being a bitch. He was hurt and decided he'd legitimately try to sabotage the team. I'm really not sure why you're defending him here.
That's not sabotage. Sabotage is when you do something nefarious in an effort to cause something bad to happen. Now let's say Pippen has the surgery and still doesn't play? Then I'd agree with you. But he came back and helped his team with the title. So it wasn't sabotage. He no longer cared enough to go out of his way for an organization that wouldn't do it for him. Based on how he was treated.




So Scottie couldn't negotiate a better contract, then blames the organization for it? Ya don't say.
That's not how it went down. SMH. He never blamed the Bulls for his signing the contract. He felt that they could've renegotiated and payed him what he was worth. But what do fans say? Stupid stuff like "Pippen was DUMB for signing that contract". Again, totally omitting the fact that he needed to help take care of his handicapped brother, and poor family. Pippen opted for stability. He could be disgruntled and SABOTAGED the teams capability to win by half assing it night after night, but he came to play every single night. Some players just sit out and force their teams hand when they don't get their way. And they'll take the fines. Pippen didn't do that.

[97 bulls]

MJ would go nuts and people would say "It's because he's SUCH a competitor about everything!"

MJ was pretty petty too, cutting out Charles Barkley because of some comment Barkley made about the Hornets.

Was even pettier when he dissed his high school coach at his Hall of Fame speech.

Pippen gives Jordan a taste of his own medicine and people go berzerk.

"This was a night to leave behind the petty grievances and past slights – real and imagined. This was a night to be gracious, to be generous with praise and credit.

"M.J. was introduced as the greatest player ever and he's still standing there trying to settle scores," one Hall of Famer said privately later.

Jordan didn't hurt his image with the NBA community as much as he reminded them of it. "That's who Michael is," one high-ranking team executive said. "It wasn't like he was out of character. There's no one else who could've gotten away with what he did tonight. But it was Michael, and everyone just goes along."

Jordan wandered through an unfocused and uninspired speech at Symphony Hall, disparaging people who had little to do with his career, like Jeff Van Gundy and Bryon Russell. He ignored people who had so much to do with it, like his personal trainer, Tim Grover. This had been a moving and inspirational night for the NBA – one of its best ceremonies ever – and five minutes into Jordan's speech it began to spiral into something else. Something unworthy of Jordan's stature, something beneath him.

Jordan spent more time pointlessly admonishing Van Gundy and Russell for crossing him with taunts a dozen years ago than he did singling out his three children."
https://sports.yahoo.com/news/jordans-night-remember-turns-petty-075600787--nba.html

All too true. But Jordan gets a pass. Nobody lost respect for MJ when he made that hideous speech. Lol

[RogueBorg]

All too true. But Jordan gets a pass. Nobody lost respect for MJ when he made that hideous speech. Lol

Reading through all of these posts and it's obvious why you are a Pippen fan, you're both alike, two whiny-@$$ biatches.

[theman93]

They weren't bums. Larry Krystowiak, the guy that started 15 games for the Bulls in 95 was a bum. But you're obviously entitled to your opinion.

Lol that scrub averaged 8.2/4.9/1.2 which was better than both Williams and King. They're all cut from the same cloth - BUMS.

[Hey Yo]

Reading through all of these posts and it's obvious why you are a Pippen fan, you're both alike, two whiny-@$$ biatches.

please, PLEASE love my Jordan

[97 bulls]

please, PLEASE love my Jordan

Lol

[97 bulls]

Lol that scrub averaged 8.2/4.9/1.2 which was better than both Williams and King. They're all cut from the same cloth - BUMS.

In 95, Krystowiak averaged 4pt, 3 rbds and shot 39% from the field. As a PF. And he was a shitty defender. He was not a better than Williams or Caffey. You're just trolling.

[Goldrush25]

the fans are the worst part. Over time it's become this myth that MJ drug the bulls kicking and screaming to the 6 championships, and the Last Dance just perpetuates that. If you lived through it you know that wasn't the case

[HoopsNY]

I see it all the time. I think you just don't pay attention to it based on your comments.

What are you talking about? You said in the '88 season, he was called a bum. I'm telling you that I was just a kid then, so I wasn't watching. You're basing this on the current climate or back then?


And this is why I say people want Pippen to be a robot. Remeber, eveeyone knew Pippen had that migraine BEFORE THE GAME STARTED. He didnt pull a Lebron James and blame a headache after he had a bad game. People talk about Pippen saying the the pressure got to him. Totally omitting that he was playing while mourning his fathers death only a few week prior. Maybe his dads death, the fact that the previous year, he was kicked the head and rendered unconscious, and had a concussion, along with the other violent plays lobbied against him by the Pistons, and the game finality of a game 7, was just too much. You feel he just should've overcame it all. Right?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.


How often are dynasties trying to trade key pieces of their championship team? Thats nowhere near par for the course. No matter how old. And thats the point. There was no loyalty to Pippen.

How many dynasties were set on rebuilding for the immediate future while in the midst of another championship run? I can't think of any, but that was certainly the case with Chicago, so it's not a fair question.

Krauss was going to dismantle the team. Pippen was gonna turn 33 and had a series of injuries. It might be an unsavory reality, but it was the reality at the time.


The Bulls could have easily renegotiated his contract. And it's doesn't matter. We're talking about setting aside ones own personal interest for the good of the team. Reinsdorf telling Jordan to take the offseason to make a decison, doesn't mean he had to do it. It's well documented that Reisndorf didn't even care about the Bulls. But was supposed to. So why leave yoir teammates high and dry like that? I have no problem with what Jordan did. I have a problem with the inconsistencies and the different set of rules applied to both players.

I don't disagree, but I just don't think it's the same situation as what Pippen did in '98.


That's not sabotage. Sabotage is when you do something nefarious in an effort to cause something bad to happen. Now let's say Pippen has the surgery and still doesn't play? Then I'd agree with you. But he came back and helped his team with the title. So it wasn't sabotage. He no longer cared enough to go out of his way for an organization that wouldn't do it for him. Based on how he was treated.

Uhh, that's what he did. Pippen missed the first half of the season. How isn't that bad? And it wasn't about going out of his way. Him taking the surgery during the summer isn't him "going out of his way" lol.


That's not how it went down. SMH. He never blamed the Bulls for his signing the contract. He felt that they could've renegotiated and payed him what he was worth. But what do fans say? Stupid stuff like "Pippen was DUMB for signing that contract". Again, totally omitting the fact that he needed to help take care of his handicapped brother, and poor family. Pippen opted for stability. He could be disgruntled and SABOTAGED the teams capability to win by half assing it night after night, but he came to play every single night. Some players just sit out and force their teams hand when they don't get their way. And they'll take the fines. Pippen didn't do that.

I was being facetious. My point is that him getting fired isn't some foul play. Pippen just sucks as a person. Just admit it. Guy is a cuck clown and you know it.

[97 bulls]

the fans are the worst part. Over time it's become this myth that MJ drug the bulls kicking and screaming to the 6 championships, and the Last Dance just perpetuates that. If you lived through it you know that wasn't the case

Exactly.

[97 bulls]

What are you talking about? You said in the '88 season, he was called a bum. I'm telling you that I was just a kid then, so I wasn't watching. You're basing this on the current climate or back then?
I'm saying hes been called a bum today for how he played in 88.




Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
Well, let's hope you're never put in that situation and expected to no miss a beat.



How many dynasties were set on rebuilding for the immediate future while in the midst of another championship run? I can't think of any, but that was certainly the case with Chicago, so it's not a fair question.

Krauss was going to dismantle the team. Pippen was gonna turn 33 and had a series of injuries. It might be an unsavory reality, but it was the reality at the time.
Exactly to the the bold. You spoke about whats being par in your prevoius response. Apply the same logic here. I see no reason to not expect some loyalty after what Pippen brought to the team. But you expect Pippen to display loyalty to the organization right?



I don't disagree, but I just don't think it's the same situation as what Pippen did in '98.


Right. Because one is Pippenand one is Jordan. And as we all know Jordan can do whatever he wants because he's sooo competitive. Lol. SMH


Uhh, that's what he did. Pippen missed the first half of the season. How isn't that bad? And it wasn't about going out of his way. Him taking the surgery during the summer isn't him "going out of his way" lol.
Thats is what he did. But thats not sabotage. I dont believe he did that with the intention of hoping the team failed. He came back right? He played hard right? HE PLAYED THROUGH THAT BACK INJURY RIGHT? He didnt get the raise he was after. He couldve half assed it out there. He did nothing if the sort. He just wasn't gonna go all out for an organization that didn't give a shit about him.




I was being facetious. My point is that him getting fired isn't some foul play. Pippen just sucks as a person. Just admit it. Guy is a cuck clown and you know it.
Lol. I'm not in Pips inner circle. I'm only talking as a fan of the 90s Bulls.

[theman93]

In 95, Krystowiak averaged 4pt, 3 rbds and shot 39% from the field. As a PF. And he was a shitty defender. He was not a better than Williams or Caffey. You're just trolling.

His career averages were absolutely better, but that's not even the point. He sucked balls just like Williams and King. Throw them all in the same bin - garbage. Replace either of those two bums with him from 1991-93 and the Bulls are 3peating regardless. They don't matter at all.

[Soundwave]

the fans are the worst part. Over time it's become this myth that MJ drug the bulls kicking and screaming to the 6 championships, and the Last Dance just perpetuates that. If you lived through it you know that wasn't the case

And you act like growing up in the 90s is something rare. Lots of people did it, I remember every championship the Bulls won.

Jordan was hands down "the man" on every championship Bulls team. The flu game and the "last shot" in 97 and 98 were massive big deals even then. It was never, not even in the 90s a case of "well the Bulls are all just equals", Jordan was always towering on his own level.

There's nothing really that offensive or off base about The Last Dance. It's fairly accurate, the main thing I would say it glossed over was giving Kukoc more of his due and instead focusing on Steve Kerr, and the reason for that is because modern kids know Steve Kerr from the Warriors.

Yes it's focused on Jordan, because he is a cultural icon and best player to play the sport and that's what people want to see/hear about. His personality is also interesting in the context of his hyper competitiveness and not always being Mr. Nice Guy. People today don't really care who won some title in 1997 or whatever the ****. They are fascinated by the mentality that Jordan has, the achievement mindset, same way the Arnold Schwarzenneger documentary on Netflix is no.1.

It's not that anyone gives a shit who won Mr. Universe in 1977 (well most people don't), it's a public fascination on over achievers and the mindset they have, because people love self help stuff, they want to know if they can apply some of that mind set in their own life.

That's really the appeal, basketball dummies who are just counting how much screen time each person got sorta missed that whole damn point.

Scottie is really only mad because the documentary was a bigger deal than he expected it to be because it released during COVID (which no one had any way of predicting) when there were no sports on, so it become even more of a must watch event, and when that happened he got embarrassed that the whole "didn't go into the game in 1994 playoffs" and "didn't have surgery in summer '97/demanded a trade out" got probably more social media attention than he thought it would. What maybe would have been like a side story in a sports news cycle normally, suddenly is being discussed and dissected all over the place.

[97 bulls]

His career averages were absolutely better, but that's not even the point. He sucked balls just like Williams and King. Throw them all in the same bin - garbage. Replace either of those two bums with him from 1991-93 and the Bulls are 3peating regardless. They don't matter at all.

I disagree. And this shows you know squat about basketball. Williams and King played good hard nosed defense and toughness. That's what they bought to the Bulls. That's what the team missed.