Talent vs Cohesion?

[plowking]

Denver hasn't won the title yet, but looks fairly likely. But at the same time - I look at their team, and like many throughout the season I wouldn't have picked them as the most talented team. Not even close in fact.

Is it a case of their team is a lot more talented than we give it credit for, or do they just fit best together? As an example - I think someone like Barkley or Wade are better 1st options on a team and you go further with them as such, but then throw them as a 2nd option in a team and I don't think they're better than Garnett or Pippen as an example - who they are more talented than IMO. This can be refined down to 3rd and 4th options, and then 6th men coming off the bench, etc.

My point is, look at Denver: Murray, KCP, Porter Jnr, Gordon and Jokic - with a weak bench.
How is that doing so much better than: Maxey, Harden, Harris, Tucker and Embiid.
Or - Jrue, Allen, Middleton, Giannis and Lopez.
Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford and RW3 with a deep bench.
CP3, Booker, Durant, Craig and Ayton.


Is it just a case of utilising guys properly - and moving them to where they are most effective in the totem pole of a team? As in some first options can't do enough outside of what they offer as a second option to be as productive and so on? Ala - Murray is more effective than Harden as a second option because he has more layers to his game, and other things he does on the court - where as Harden would carry you better as a number 1 guy?

Denver literally seems thrown together by the outcasts and forgotten guys that nobody thought were any good is all. Gordon completely revamped his career. LA told us KCP sucks. Porter Jnr dropped in the draft and has been hit and miss with injuries. Bruce Brown traded from the Nets...

[RRR3]

No one intelligent said KCP sucks. 3rd best player on the 2020 Lakers.

Cohesion is very important but talent can overwhelm it. A mix of the two is best.

[3ba11]

Fitting with teammates is part of having a superior skillset - players with high hold-times like Luka, Lebron or Westbrook have bad fits and guys like Curry, Jokic or MJ (low hold-times) have the best fits and dynastic chemistry that makes ordinary casts look great.. Low hold-times are usually correlated with expert jumpshooting skill like MJ or Curry, but Jokic is a new breed of genius

[SouBeachTalents]

Fitting with teammates is part of having a superior skillset - players with high hold-times like Luka, Lebron or Westbrook have bad fits and guys like Curry, Jokic or MJ (low hold-times) have the best fits and dynastic chemistry that makes ordinary casts look great.. Low hold-times are usually correlated with expert jumpshooting skill like MJ or Curry, but Jokic is a new breed of genius
But he's not defeating maximum defensive attention since Murray is averaging 28 ppg, that's gonna cause a lot of problems for you when you try to slurp him as part of your next anti LeBron agenda :lol

[Im Still Ballin]

Yes. Some guys have more of an impact on a bad team as opposed to a good one. It all comes down to skillsets really. What does this team have; what does this team need? There's a finite amount of possessions in a basketball game. Not everyone can get their 15+ shots. Guys that can fit, play along, and impact the game in ways other than on-ball scoring are invaluable to high-level teams.

These concepts are known as portability, scalability, floor-raising, and ceiling-raising in the online NBA community. Labels for what basketball coaches and experts know intuitively.

[plowking]

Yes. Some guys have more of an impact on a bad team as opposed to a good one. It all comes down to skillsets really. What does this team have; what does this team need? There's a finite amount of possessions in a basketball game. Not everyone can get their 15+ shots. Guys that can fit, play along, and impact the game in ways other than on-ball scoring are invaluable to high-level teams.

These concepts are known as portability, scalability, floor-raising, and ceiling-raising in the online NBA community. Labels for what basketball coaches and experts know intuitively.

Well said.

I look at the 73 win Warriors that added Durant almost as the perfect team to what you described.

The best bits of each player were able to shine through without having to sacrifice much of anything. I guess the question is - is that what the Nuggets are doing on a smaller/lower level with the guys they have?


But to go back to the "not enough ball" for everyone type thing. It raises the question of guys like Bridges who go to new teams and ball out. Sure - they are capable - but is it just a case of going to a bad team like you said - but them maybe not being used to their full potential or what they are best at. For me - the role he played in PHX was perfect for him. They just needed better top players to fill out the team - because CP3 and Booker weren't enough on their own.

[3ba11]

But he's not defeating maximum defensive attention since Murray is averaging 28 ppg, that's gonna cause a lot of problems for you when you try to slurp him as part of your next anti LeBron agenda :lol


I never said Jokic was as good as Jordan - no one is - no one was forced to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in every series) - only Michael - that's why his path was toughest and it's why he's the GOAT (defeating max defensive attention)

[ShawkFactory]

But he's not defeating maximum defensive attention since Murray is averaging 28 ppg, that's gonna cause a lot of problems for you when you try to slurp him as part of your next anti LeBron agenda :lol

The best part is that he's going to win this year and perhaps more in the future. THEN he's start the anti-Jokic talks :lol

It will never end. Jordan is his father and that will never change.

[Im Still Ballin]

Well said.

I look at the 73 win Warriors that added Durant almost as the perfect team to what you described.

The best bits of each player were able to shine through without having to sacrifice much of anything. I guess the question is - is that what the Nuggets are doing on a smaller/lower level with the guys they have?


But to go back to the "not enough ball" for everyone type thing. It raises the question of guys like Bridges who go to new teams and ball out. Sure - they are capable - but is it just a case of going to a bad team like you said - but them maybe not being used to their full potential or what they are best at. For me - the role he played in PHX was perfect for him. They just needed better top players to fill out the team - because CP3 and Booker weren't enough on their own.

Regarding Bridges: possibly. We'll see what he can do in the upcoming seasons, but nothing yet screams James Harden in Houston to me. He's put up some nice stats and shrunk in a playoff series. You're probably right. Doesn't seem like a guy who can carry an offense to a high seeding. Would need some good help to do that.

[NuggetsFan]

For Denver it's honestly pretty simple. Playoff Murray is a not only a legitimate 2nd option but a great one. You have an All-Time great with a legit 2nd option and good supporting cast. You toss in the fact that there probably hasn't been a player since Magic Johnson who made him teammates better and it's really not that surprising. Denver has both talent and great cohesion. They have an All-Time great. It's a legitimate championship roster when it's at it's best .. the biggest thing is for some of these Nuggets players that's just something that doesn't happen over an 82 game season so it catches people off guard. Like if you told Nuggets fans you were going to get bubble Murray and MPJ playing at a high level than none of would be surprised .. the surprise is weather or not you actually get that.

People don't care about Denver and I get it but Jokic has literally been playing with trash for the most part with Murray/MPJ hurt. People don't realize how inconsistent Murray has been in his career. If you had another player who was MVP caliber like Jokic and he had played with zero all-stars it would be a massive storyline .. but instead the storyline was Jokic couldn't win in the playoffs. Murray averaged 22/6/4 on 49/43/85 shooting splits during wins in the regular season. He averaged 16/5/4 on 39/32/80 shooting splits in losses. Murray obviously plays a big role and when he's bad he sinks the team .. when he's good were elite .. when he's great were bordering on special.

[Micku]

Great thread.

And I think it's definitely cohesion matters more than talent. But talent matters, but it matters in how you fit within the team.

Like you said, Wade and Harden could be number 1s, but when they are number 2s, are they really better than guys like Murray or any other number 2 scoring option? What type of skillset could they provide to be effective?

Guys like Westbrook when he was with the Lakers was a bad fit as opposed to when he goes to the Clippers and he was good. It's because the teammates and coaching staff compliments his talents more. It takes some smart scouting and management to really get a team that is right together.

[BallsOut]

The 2023 Lakers are talented featuring 3 all star players. Denver has 1 (2 if you count Jamal). That should tell you enough about talent vs cohesion

[jlip]

Yes. Some guys have more of an impact on a bad team as opposed to a good one. It all comes down to skillsets really. What does this team have; what does this team need? There's a finite amount of possessions in a basketball game. Not everyone can get their 15+ shots. Guys that can fit, play along, and impact the game in ways other than on-ball scoring are invaluable to high-level teams.

These concepts are known as portability, scalability, floor-raising, and ceiling-raising in the online NBA community. Labels for what basketball coaches and experts know intuitively.

This is why I rank Magic so highly. To me, he is simply the greatest puzzle piece in the history of the league. Yes. His teams were essentially always talented, but he was successful sharing pg duties with Norm Nixon. He was obviously successful running the offense as the main pg. When it was time for him to take over as the primary scoring option, the team still did not miss a beat.

"Fit" was also one of the main characteristics that made Bill Russell so good. In his own words, "You pick me, because I won't distort your offense or your defense. The way I play, my team wins." I remember watching an interview that he a Wilt had with Bob Costas, and Costas posed a question saying that Russell more often than not had better teams. The question was addressed t Wilt, but Russell interrupted somewhat frustratingly, and said that his teammates were better because he did things that fit their game to make them better. Wilt even later said that had he been on the Celtics instead of Russell, because he was primarily a scorer early on, the Celtics would not have won as much with him as they did with Russell, because his game would have taken away from the Cousys and Heinsohns on the roster.

[iamgine]

Talent gives you upside. Cohesion gives you consistency.

Both are muy importante.

[ILLsmak]

Denver hasn't won the title yet, but looks fairly likely. But at the same time - I look at their team, and like many throughout the season I wouldn't have picked them as the most talented team. Not even close in fact.

Is it a case of their team is a lot more talented than we give it credit for, or do they just fit best together? As an example - I think someone like Barkley or Wade are better 1st options on a team and you go further with them as such, but then throw them as a 2nd option in a team and I don't think they're better than Garnett or Pippen as an example - who they are more talented than IMO. This can be refined down to 3rd and 4th options, and then 6th men coming off the bench, etc.

My point is, look at Denver: Murray, KCP, Porter Jnr, Gordon and Jokic - with a weak bench.
How is that doing so much better than: Maxey, Harden, Harris, Tucker and Embiid.
Or - Jrue, Allen, Middleton, Giannis and Lopez.
Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford and RW3 with a deep bench.
CP3, Booker, Durant, Craig and Ayton.


Is it just a case of utilising guys properly - and moving them to where they are most effective in the totem pole of a team? As in some first options can't do enough outside of what they offer as a second option to be as productive and so on? Ala - Murray is more effective than Harden as a second option because he has more layers to his game, and other things he does on the court - where as Harden would carry you better as a number 1 guy?

Denver literally seems thrown together by the outcasts and forgotten guys that nobody thought were any good is all. Gordon completely revamped his career. LA told us KCP sucks. Porter Jnr dropped in the draft and has been hit and miss with injuries. Bruce Brown traded from the Nets...

Giannis is flawed despite being a beast. Not a great play maker, no j. Zone food. Chris Paul got injured. I woulda picked suns for finals, in fact I did. They are pretty cohesive, too. Denver has if not the best, arguably the best player in the nba haha.

I was watching gp talk about that 2004 series and he was like hey they were 1-5 stacked (det,) and they were. He was like I knew after game 1 we weren’t gonna win. So, you seem to be talking more about name recognition than talent. Can dudes be in the right spots and make plays? Is it hard to stop them, especially all five, from getting one player in a successful position? Then they are talented. U a heat fan. I was just talking about 2006 heat. They were vetted as hell tho.

This heat team would be in a better spot if they had all their players. Boston raw choked like they always do. Still think brown n Tatum is a bad look. Kd on wars was a perfect fit. I think that might be the best offensive team ever, on some “not even close “ level.

Cohesion is most important. Tons of talent, but you do need some transformative players. Jokic says he never forces which imo is bull shit or what a luxury he has. Most teams have to force sometimes down stretch. That’s when raw talent matters.

But after watching ball for years u should already know. This ain’t 1980s or 90s where u had to fill out with bums or one dimensional players. These guys are insanely good at bball. All they have to do is get in rhythm and it’s over.

Edit: also sorry loney or w e dude w old wb smirk avy name is, harden is a bum and should not be included in talks. He has no ability to be a second option beyond spotting up. His game is cancer esp in new nba. He would have been better in 90s, imagine that.

-Smak

[NBAGOAT]

you need cohesion but we also technically had no superteams this year so no teams had way more talent than denver. Like if the lakers or suns got kyrie and were healthy, they have a chance for sure. Also talent is not just scoring talent and your whole starting lineup matters.

Bucks dont have a good 5th starter and jrue and khris are inconsistent. They do have better top end talent but that's a moot point when Jamal these playoffs has easily played better than khris/jrue which shouldnt happen considering they're considered all star level and he isnt. Having a guy on the floor who isnt good can kill you in the playoffs phx had the same issues. cp3 and ayton have name value but were not great this year and to defend him cp3 is 38 tbf.

Maxey and Tobias are good scoring talents but dont offer much else. Even discounting jokic elevating him, I rather have aaron gordon on most contenders than those 2 and porter jr is likely better than tobias just because of his shooting.

Boston was puzzling tbf they have more depth than denver. Tatum is not in jokic's tier and brown is a bit overvalued however. their core just plays down to opponents so much.

[BallsOut]

you need cohesion but we also technically had no superteams this year so no teams had way more talent than denver. Like if the lakers or suns got kyrie and were healthy, they have a chance for sure. Also talent is not just scoring talent and your whole starting lineup matters.

Bucks dont have a good 5th starter and jrue and khris are inconsistent. They do have better top end talent but that's a moot point when Jamal these playoffs has easily played better than khris/jrue which shouldnt happen considering they're considered all star level and he isnt. Having a guy on the floor who isnt good can kill you in the playoffs phx had the same issues. cp3 and ayton have name value but were not great this year and to defend him cp3 is 38 tbf.

Maxey and Tobias are good scoring talents but dont offer much else. Even discounting jokic elevating him, I rather have aaron gordon on most contenders than those 2 and porter jr is likely better than tobias just because of his shooting.

Boston was puzzling tbf they have more depth than denver. Tatum is not in jokic's tier and brown is a bit overvalued however. their core just plays down to opponents so much.


We did have superteams this year.

Boston
Lakers
Phoenix
Philly
Bucks
Heat

All of them had at least 3 all stars.

It makes what Denver is doing really special

[ShawkFactory]

We did have superteams this year.

Boston
Lakers
Phoenix
Philly
Bucks
Heat

All of them had at least 3 all stars.

It makes what Denver is doing really special

Literally none of those teams have or had 3 all stars. Only one of them even had 2 this year.

[BallsOut]

Literally none of those teams have or had 3 all stars. Only one of them even had 2 this year.

Doesn’t take genius to know that each of those teams had 3 recent all stars. DAngelo was an all star what two seasons ago? So he’s all of a sudden not all star according to your homer goggles.

News flash buddy, there’s only 30 all star slots every year. Doesn’t mean if you don’t make that 30 cut you’re not all star level. Dumbass gatekeepers

[BarberSchool]

Denver roster and staff are seemingly all genuinely good high quality people, who enjoy covering for each other’s deficiencies and maximizing and amplifying each other’s strengths.

It’s a beautiful, familial, militant thing to watch.

I’m so happy Aaron Gordon now won’t have to retire with his career legacy convos containing “they screwed me out of those dunk contests *salty*”

Now, with a championship ring or 3, he can say:
“They screwed me out of those dunk contests *laughing triumphantly*”

God bless the Denver Nuggets from top to bottom.
Love this squad chemistry and cohesiveness, and their ability to all be on a string playing for each other on both sides of the ball.

[BallsOut]

Denver roster and staff are seemingly all genuinely good high quality people, who enjoy covering for each other’s deficiencies and maximizing and amplifying each other’s strengths.

It’s a beautiful, familial, militant thing to watch.

I’m so happy Aaron Gordon now won’t have to retire with his career legacy convos containing “they screwed me out of those dunk contests *salty*”

Now, with a championship ring or 3, he can say:
“They screwed me out of those dunk contests *laughing triumphantly*”

God bless the Denver Nuggets from top to bottom.
Love this squad chemistry and cohesiveness, and their ability to all be on a string playing for each other on both sides of the ball.

The best thing about this Denver Nuggets team is how they were built. Through careful draft selection and timely offseason pickups. They didn’t need to collude to form quick superteams like LeBron and many others to follow him did.

[ShawkFactory]

Doesn’t take genius to know that each of those teams had 3 recent all stars. DAngelo was an all star what two seasons ago? So he’s all of a sudden not all star according to your homer goggles.

News flash buddy, there’s only 30 all star slots every year. Doesn’t mean if you don’t make that 30 cut you’re not all star level. Dumbass gatekeepers

Russell was an all star once and it was 4 years ago.

[NBAGOAT]

Doesn’t take genius to know that each of those teams had 3 recent all stars. DAngelo was an all star what two seasons ago? So he’s all of a sudden not all star according to your homer goggles.

News flash buddy, there’s only 30 all star slots every year. Doesn’t mean if you don’t make that 30 cut you’re not all star level. Dumbass gatekeepers

Dlo is already cutting it but you’re really going call old horford and cp3 and Lowry all star level. Lowry isn’t even starting anymore lol. Also who was that 3rd recent all star on Philly??

My definition of superteam is also stricter than yours. Having
3 all stars isn’t enough. You need a top tier superstar and really good 2nd star who’s all nba lvl and a 3rd all star imo. By that definition Milwaukee isn’t and few people were calling them a super team in 2021 even

[ILLsmak]

There were super teams this year they are just washed or cancerous. I don’t think the super team thing ever goes away but it’s not a winning strategy. Weak era.

-Smak

[3ba11]

Show me where an abnormal ball-dominator for their size/position like Luka or Lebron had great "cohesion", fits or chemistry

It's never happened because abnormal ball-dominators impose spot-up roles, which doesnt' develop teammates, fits or strategic capacity/coaching.

Otoh, expert jumpshooters are assisted by teammates, which facilitates ball movement, fits and strategic capacity, so guys like Curry, MJ, Bird, Kawhi, or Kobe have cohesive teams with dynasty chemistry.. Jokic is a different breed because he isn't an expert jumpshooter but he has a similarly-low hold-time, which results in the same cohesion and strategic capacity for the team.

[BallsOut]

There were super teams this year they are just washed or cancerous. I don’t think the super team thing ever goes away but it’s not a winning strategy. Weak era.

-Smak

+1 weak ass era from 2011 onwards

[Heat_chips]

For Denver it's honestly pretty simple. Playoff Murray is a not only a legitimate 2nd option but a great one. You have an All-Time great with a legit 2nd option and good supporting cast. You toss in the fact that there probably hasn't been a player since Magic Johnson who made him teammates better and it's really not that surprising. Denver has both talent and great cohesion. They have an All-Time great. It's a legitimate championship roster when it's at it's best .. the biggest thing is for some of these Nuggets players that's just something that doesn't happen over an 82 game season so it catches people off guard. Like if you told Nuggets fans you were going to get bubble Murray and MPJ playing at a high level than none of would be surprised .. the surprise is weather or not you actually get that.

People don't care about Denver and I get it but Jokic has literally been playing with trash for the most part with Murray/MPJ hurt. People don't realize how inconsistent Murray has been in his career. If you had another player who was MVP caliber like Jokic and he had played with zero all-stars it would be a massive storyline .. but instead the storyline was Jokic couldn't win in the playoffs. Murray averaged 22/6/4 on 49/43/85 shooting splits during wins in the regular season. He averaged 16/5/4 on 39/32/80 shooting splits in losses. Murray obviously plays a big role and when he's bad he sinks the team .. when he's good were elite .. when he's great were bordering on special.

Not a believer in Murray at all. You dont play defense in the West so murray will not be able to Hunt vs the Heat as he did so easily against a poor lakers team and a suns team that plays ZERO defense, And besides, when was the last time a championship teams 2 best offensive players were also their worst defensive players on their whole roster ? the answer is Never. Jokic and murray totally stink on defense.,

What the Heat do best is they take away what you do best.

You saw last night how the Heat targeted Murray playing Butler on him for 35 possessions compared to just 4 possessions Butler was on him in game one. They also blitzed Murray with traps. The Heat have been great at stifling and rattling top guards on teams through the playoffs. They made Jaylen Brown look like straight poo all series long. Brown shot way below his 49% season averages. And Jrue Holiday shot 36% or worse in 3 of the 5 games against the Heat in the Bucks series. The Heat are targetting Murray into mistakes and just playing Jokic one on one. And it's genius

Starting Kevin Love to stop Aaron Gordon's cutting and backdoor cuts allowed the Heat to go with Butler against Murray and making Murray's life hell. Murray was poor last night, and REALLY bad on defense, especially in the 4th quarter where the Butler defense took a toll on murray and murray himself couldnt get the energy to play defense. The Heat run in the 4th was a lot to do with Murray's poor defense and lack of awareness

Everyone in the media is thinking about Jokic but the Heat really want to rattle Jamal Murray and get in his head for the whole series, like they did to Jaylen Brown

[Heat_chips]

Denver roster and staff are seemingly all genuinely good high quality people, who enjoy covering for each other’s deficiencies and maximizing and amplifying each other’s strengths.

It’s a beautiful, familial, militant thing to watch.

I’m so happy Aaron Gordon now won’t have to retire with his career legacy convos containing “they screwed me out of those dunk contests *salty*”

Now, with a championship ring or 3, he can say:
“They screwed me out of those dunk contests *laughing triumphantly*”

God bless the Denver Nuggets from top to bottom.
Love this squad chemistry and cohesiveness, and their ability to all be on a string playing for each other on both sides of the ball.

Aside from jokic, nobody on the nuggets impresses me. Your playoff record is heavily inflated because the nuggets played nobody. they played a suns team that plays ZERO defense and had no cohesiveness whatsoever. then they played 2 playin teams, they played a timberwolves team that stinks on defense and an extremely overrated lakers team with a 40 year old lebron and a broken down passive AD that looked nothing like he did in the bubble. the lakers also stink on defense

And none of those 3 teams are good 3 point shooting teams !!!

When I was watching the western playoffs I was laughing how easily Jamal Murray was able to hunt matchups because the defenses in the west are so poor. Against Miami however, Murray wont be able to hunt like that, We made top guards have very poor series in Jaylen Brown and Jrue Holiday for the Celtics and Bucks respectively and Brown is a much better overall player than murray is ( score more ppg at much better efficiency, better assist man, better rebounder and Brown is a thousand times better on defense than murray is)

the bucks and celtics would also have their way with murray/

the nuggets cruised to the easiest finals path anyone can remember,, but as soon as they face a very good defense like miami they are limited to just 106 points per game at home with a huge rest advantage. The bucks and celtics would wipe the floor on the nuggets in 6 or less. The east plays defense

Speaking of defense, your 2 best offensive players are absolutely atrocious on defense. When was the last time a championship teams 2 best players were the worst defensive players on their whole roster? Its a huge flaw, the nuggets are vastly overrated