Ben Wallace vs Rip Hamilton

[iamgine]

Who was more valuable? Ben was a defensive monster but very lacking offensively. Rip was the team's top scorer.

Would Detroit suffered more if they replace Ben with an average center or replace Rip with an average SG?

[RRR3]

Clearly Ben

[Im Still Ballin]

I'm not sure. I'll get back to you, pal.

[iamgine]

Clearly Ben

I thought so too until I saw Rip scored at about the same rate as Kobe/Duncan/Shaq in their title year.

That's not nothing.

[Reggie43]

Its close especially in the year they won it all. In their playoff series against the Pacers, Detroit scored just 75 ppg and Rip was at 24 points per game basically carrying the Pistons offensively while providing good all around numbers.

[Clifton]

Ben was the most important player on those teams, but it was a different game back then. It was possible to hold teams under 80 points, and the game was fought over the painted area. What mattered was bucket-getting on any given possession (Rip) and ability to control the paint on D (Wallace).

In 2004-06, Rip may have been as important as Chauncey... maybe. From what I remember, he was generally considered the 4th best player on the title team, but I thought this did him a disservice. He was the only guy bringing consistent scoring on that team. If you hold a team to 70 it's no good if you only score 68. I remember Chauncey and Sheed being *very* inconsistent scorers, Sheed because of effort and Chauncey because he got hot and cold and took a lot of pull-up 3s.

If they were regenerated now, the core of the team would be Chauncey and Sheed running pick and roll. Rip would be the third option, like 08-13 Ray Allen running around, or maybe like a lower-wattage Klay. They'd still be good but it would look completely different. Also, I think because of the NBA that Steph (edit: and Harden) has created, Chauncey would rival Lillard as an offensive player, and probably surpass him overall because of defense.

[Wardell Curry]

Ben Wallace.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s hard to say. When your team could realistically score 68 points who is more important? The guy who could be the reason the other team scores 66 or the guy who scores 22 of the 68?

It’s like asking, would you rather not score enough or have the other team score too much when it’s just different ways of wording a loss.

[Wardell Curry]

It’s hard to say. When your team could realistically score 68 points who is more important? The guy who could be the reason the other team scores 66 or the guy who scores 22 of the 68?

It's not that hard to say. Watch the games. You're talking an all time great defensive player who was the league leader in defensive win shares and defensive bpm for multiple years in a row versus a guy who was relatively forgettable by comparison.

This is like asking who was more important between Bill Russell and Bob Cousy or John Havlicek or something.

Well, it's a bit of an insult to Russell to compare him to Ben but you understand the point. He was the cornerstone and that was and is undisputed. Of course you need some help to win. Ben Wallace wouldn't have won it all without a perfectly fitting supporting cast, but he was their best player by quite a bit, make no mistake about it.

[rawimpact]

That Pistons team was centered around Ben's defense. RIP, Chauncey, Sheed were excellent offensive talent

[Kblaze8855]

It's not that hard to say. Watch the games. You're talking an all time great defensive player who was the league leader in defensive win shares and defensive bpm for multiple years in a row versus a guy who was relatively forgettable by comparison.


This is like asking who was more important between Bill Russell and Bob Cousy or John Havlicek or something.

Well, it's a bit of an insult to Russell to compare him to Ben but you understand the point. He was the cornerstone and that was and is undisputed. Of course you need some help to win. Ben Wallace wouldn't have won it all without a perfectly fitting supporting cast, but he was their best player by quite a bit, make no mistake about it.


They won an elimination game, 69 to 65 and rip scored twice as much as anybody else with 21. Basketball isn’t so simple that you can literally remove either’s contribution and say without Ben they give up 90 or without Rip they score 50 but it’s fair to say they probably needed both to win which makes it more of a question about who is most indispensable not if either one of them was. It’s like asking if you want to keep your heart or your liver. When you’re gonna die either way, what does it matter?

I’d say in the comparison Ben is the heart, but you’re going in the casket, one way or the other.

Bill Russell won the championship with and without every single player h ever played with.

Pistons won 64 games and lost in the conference finals with him then won 59 games and lost in the conference finals without him. I think it’s safe to say they needed every piece of that ensemble.

[Clifton]

I’d say in the comparison Ben is the heart, but you’re going in the casket, one way or the other.

I basically agree, but I'd say it's more like heart vs. kidneys. If you lose one kidney the other one can do the work. If Rip isn't on the floor, Sheed and Chauncey are taking more shots and scoring more points. If you lose both kidneys, a transplant is difficult but not unrealistic, because the other person doesn't have to die to give you theirs. You can get another scorer from another team.

But while heart transplants are possible, hearts are very rare, because if you give yours up, you're dead. How many guys could have replaced Ben on those teams? Maybe there were 3 or 4, but those guys were impossible to get. Guys would get terrible contracts because teams thought they might project to be a poor man's Mutombo or Big Ben.

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t disagree with that enough to argue.

I would say it’s a little tough to make the clear distinctions on that team though. Like…who is the best total basketball player? It’s Sheed or Billups right? Rip can’t defend like them and Ben isn’t an offensive player at all.

Well balanced team. Can’t give anyone all the credit.

[L.Kizzle]

Ben's defense was definitely more valuable. Is that even a question. He won 4 DPOYs in a row. Was the #1 rated defender for so me time.

[ShawkFactory]

For the Pistons as they were constructed it was fairly even I’d say. The tie-breaker for me is that I think it would be easier to find a replacement for what Rip did than for Ben.

[theballerFKA Ace]

Of the 5. RIP was probably the most replaceable.

Chauncey
Prince
Sheed
Ben.

RIP was great but he's getting cut first if forced to choose. Then Sheed.

Between Prince, Chauncey and Ben, it's a tougher choice. Lose any one of those 3 and it would have been extremely difficult to replace them with anyone of their skillsets at the time

[iamgine]

I think we forget that when Ben left, Pistons was still a top tier defensive team. While Ben was a defensive monster, it's not like the defense fell apart without him.

Meanwhile Rip was scoring at the rate of Kobe/Shaq/Duncan in Detroit's title year playoff. Not sure how replaceable that is.

[Baller789]

For the Pistons as they were constructed it was fairly even I’d say. The tie-breaker for me is that I think it would be easier to find a replacement for what Rip did than for Ben.

This.

Although Detroit's offense usually starts on Rip's first cut.

[L.Kizzle]

I think we forget that when Ben left, Pistons was still a top tier defensive team. While Ben was a defensive monster, it's not like the defense fell apart without him.

Meanwhile Rip was scoring at the rate of Kobe/Shaq/Duncan in Detroit's title year playoff. Not sure how replaceable that is.

RIP could have been replaced with peak Michael Finley.
I mean, of you take Bill Russell away from say the 64 Celtics, they still probably go deep in the playoffs but they're not winning anything.

[iamgine]

RIP could have been replaced with peak Michael Finley.
I mean, of you take Bill Russell away from say the 64 Celtics, they still probably go deep in the playoffs but they're not winning anything.

Not sure Finley ever scored with the best of em in the playoff.

[Rake2204]

Ben Wallace was at the core of everything the Pistons stood for at the time. He was their team identity personified and the Pistons' most indispensable commodity.

That doesn't mean Rip wasn't important. Every single member of that championship team was important to varying degrees and if you remove any one of them at the wrong time, their championship hopes would have gone down the tube.

Still, I'm taking the generational defender that helped form an entire championship identity. I can see a timeline where Rip is replaced by another player of his ilk where the Pistons are still ticking (and winning). I have a much more difficult time seeing a timeline where we'd ever find someone to replace Ben Wallace. In fact, we tried in '07 when he left for Chicago and LeBron ended up dropping his 48-Special on us as a result (maybe an oversimplified conclusion as who's to say what would have happened with a somewhat elder Ben sitting in the paint but to a broader point, I'm just saying Ben was close to irreplaceable).

[iamgine]

Ben Wallace was at the core of everything the Pistons stood for at the time. He was their team identity personified and the Pistons' most indispensable commodity.

That doesn't mean Rip wasn't important. Every single member of that championship team was important to varying degrees and if you remove any one of them at the wrong time, their championship hopes would have gone down the tube.

Still, I'm taking the generational defender that helped form an entire championship identity. I can see a timeline where Rip is replaced by another player of his ilk where the Pistons are still ticking (and winning). I have a much more difficult time seeing a timeline where we'd ever find someone to replace Ben Wallace. In fact, we tried in '07 when he left for Chicago and LeBron ended up dropping his 48-Special on us as a result (maybe an oversimplified conclusion as who's to say what would have happened with a somewhat elder Ben sitting in the paint but to a broader point, I'm just saying Ben was close to irreplaceable).

Well how about when Iverson dropped 37, 36, & 34 with Ben?

Or when Wade dropped 36 & 40 pts?

How is he irreplaceable when the result year before and after he left was basically identical?

[Rake2204]

Well how about when Iverson dropped 37, 36, & 34 with Ben?

Or when Wade dropped 36 & 40 pts?

How is he irreplaceable when the result year before and after he left was basically identical?I knew I should have left that part out about the LeBron 48, haha.

I more broadly found Wallace to be irreplaceable in terms of what he meant to the team as a whole, dating all the way back to 2001. He was the singular rock behind that team's identity at the time, upon which all else would be built in subsequent years, based upon his comparatively unique contributions to the game.

That Pistons era began with Jerry Stackhouse playing the two, and Stack was actually a pretty significant part of Detroit's turnaround in '02 (even if the statistics suggest otherwise). However, Stack was replaceable. He could be traded (as he was) and the Pistons' engine could keep chugging (as it did). I think the same could have been true if Rip had been dealt as well, as I think there were a number of two guards out there who could have fit into Rip's spot and performed well enough.

On the flip side, dealing Ben Wallace at any point in the lead up to the Pistons' championship would have led to a stark change in team philosophy and trajectory. That doesn't mean nobody scored on the Pistons during his time in Detroit. But it did mean that there was never any doubt that those teams were going to pursue success beginning with their defensive anchor and working backward, which may have been the one way there were going to be able to break through and win a ring. And I struggle to think of many other defensive anchors unique and accessible enough to the Pistons at the time to have had the same effect as Ben Wallace.

Basically, I've seen Rip types come and go throughout Pistons history. But I've only seen one Ben Wallace.

[Reggie43]

The funny thing is that Rip might be more important to their offense than Ben Wallace is to their defense in their 2004 run. Larry Brown in interviews have said that the guy who sacrificed the most to make the team work was Rip, Im not sure you could replace that type of commitment with any other shooting guard.

[L.Kizzle]

The funny thing is that Rip might be more important to their offense than Ben Wallace is to their defense in their 2004 run. Larry Brown in interviews have said that the guy who sacrificed the most to make the team work was Rip, Im not sure you could replace that type of commitment with any other shooting guard.

What did he sacrifice the most?
He was the teams leading scorer every season in Detroit.

[Reggie43]

What did he sacrifice the most?
He was the teams leading scorer every season in Detroit.

"Everywhere I went after coaching Detroit, people just always embraced that 'playing the right way.' I used to always bring that up, that phrase. I've had more people come up to me--they don't even know who the hell I am, but they know I coached Detroit--they always would say, 'Oh, that team, they played the right way,' and I think, if you look at sacrifices that people have to make to make that come true, I think Rip comes first," Brown told NBC Sports in 2012.

https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/legendary-coach-brown-talks-hamilton-bulls/295786/

[L.Kizzle]

"Everywhere I went after coaching Detroit, people just always embraced that 'playing the right way.' I used to always bring that up, that phrase. I've had more people come up to me--they don't even know who the hell I am, but they know I coached Detroit--they always would say, 'Oh, that team, they played the right way,' and I think, if you look at sacrifices that people have to make to make that come true, I think Rip comes first," Brown told NBC Sports in 2012.

https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/legendary-coach-brown-talks-hamilton-bulls/295786/
I see, I just want to know what did he sacrifice.
I would say Prince sacrificed the most. The only one never an All-Star but sometimes had the toughest assignment on the floor.

[Reggie43]

I see, I just want to know what did he sacrifice.
I would say Prince sacrificed the most. The only one never an All-Star but sometimes had the toughest assignment on the floor.

I guess taking quality shots, being a better playmaker and defender. He bought in to the "Play the right way" mantra of Larry Brown.

[L.Kizzle]

I guess taking quality shots, being a better playmaker and defender. He bought in to the "Play the right way" mantra of Larry Brown.
I get it. Sacrifice usually means he's losing shots or playing time which he wasn't. He wasn't giving up anything. Spotlight maybe but it's like like he came from Washington as a former All-Star or something. Don't mind me, just talking lol.

[Reggie43]

I get it. Sacrifice usually means he's losing shots or playing time which he wasn't. He wasn't giving up anything. Spotlight maybe but it's like like he came from Washington as a former All-Star or something. Don't mind me, just talking lol.

Larry Brown might have just wanted to give him his props and not meant it fully but then again there might be something going on behind the scenes that impressed him considering that Larry Brown was notorious for being hard on his guards.

[Real14]

Big Ben because of 2004 vs Shaq