Is Jokic really unique - or is he just better?

[90sgoat]

Kblaze was talking about how Jokic would play way different in 80s, 90s and before, but why?

He can do things that no center has done as well before, but is it actually different or just done better?

Vlade Divac? Chris Webber? Arvydas Sabonis? Bill Walton?

Are these not pretty much the same player as Jokic, what does he do different? I mean, he is obviously better, but playing style wise, give them the same rules and time with the ball and doesn't the game looks much the same?

[1987_Lakers]

According to Kenny, Divac would be Jokic level today.

[90sgoat]

According to Kenny, Divac would be Jokic level today.

Nah, he's too skinny.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kblaze was talking about how Jokic would play way different in 80s, 90s and before, but why?

He can do things that no center has done as well before, but is it actually different or just done better?

Vlade Divac? Chris Webber? Arvydas Sabonis? Bill Walton?

Are these not pretty much the same player as Jokic, what does he do different? I mean, he is obviously better, but playing style wise, give them the same rules and time with the ball and doesn't the game looks much the same?
None of those guys were close to the playmaker or shooter that Jokic is. Even if you gave them the greenlight to play like Jokic I seriously doubt they're doing a hyper efficient 30/10/10 for a title run, even in this era.

[Micku]

Kblaze was talking about how Jokic would play way different in 80s, 90s and before, but why?

He can do things that no center has done as well before, but is it actually different or just done better?

Vlade Divac? Chris Webber? Arvydas Sabonis? Bill Walton?

Are these not pretty much the same player as Jokic, what does he do different? I mean, he is obviously better, but playing style wise, give them the same rules and time with the ball and doesn't the game looks much the same?

I don't think the coaches would let him dribble the ball up the floor or initiate the offense as he does now.

And the game was played differently back then. A lot more guys playing in the paint and not as good spacing. While you can say there are bigger centers back then, I don't think Jokic would have a big problem. They just didn't play as much small ball. Jokic can destroy the small ball. While he has amazing shooting touch and would still be great no matter what era, I'm guessing his assists would go down. His efficiency may go down or stay the same.

He'll play differently but still be great.

[RachlNicholsazz]

None of those guys were close to the playmaker or shooter that Jokic is. Even if you gave them the greenlight to play like Jokic I seriously doubt they're doing a hyper efficient 30/10/10 for a title run, even in this era.


Yeah. Even if those guys were raised in the current basketball environment they wouldn't be the shooter Jokic is. Of all those guys Sabonis managed to shoot over 80% FTs one single year. Jokic has never shot freethrows under 80% in his entire career. They were all better defenders and Webber probably had a better handle but not by much.

[ILLsmak]

His contested jumper is unique as is his driving move arsenal, his tendency to finish w floaters (still dislike it when sometimes he could get thru.)

His j is the evolution of bball tho. It’s just different coming from him vs say dirk, plus nobody would help off dirk as much. He is unbelievably wet and I watch a lot of bball stuff cuz it’s one of my preferred relaxations, like music. His passing is really not that nuts haha. It’s really good but it’s not goat, sry kids. Maybe not even at position but def not vs all.

What makes his j special is like they said his center fg % isn’t based on under rim, but Man U guys say he is at peak, no way. He finds out how to really finish inside, in the playoffs, v slappy fouls, he could raise his fg up to what he does in regs and that’s nuttts. That’s the only flaw I see. Not gonna talk about his d cuz yea he doesn’t try unless ppl go at him, but he’s not bad, he’s just not a rim protector like all the other atgs are. But If u wanna say sky hook, dream shake vs his shot, I think it’s up there for what ok sort of buckets, and he makes those even under massive pressure. Unlike his floater game haha. U CAN BE TOO CLOSE TO SHOOT A FLOATER. DAMMIT NIK.

That and maybe he could use the glass more on shots, dono.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

None of those guys were close to the playmaker or shooter that Jokic is. Even if you gave them the greenlight to play like Jokic I seriously doubt they're doing a hyper efficient 30/10/10 for a title run, even in this era.

People who also got 30 10 10: wb. Such a stat line was unheard of for like 30 years. People who never did. Bron. Imagine prime Brons stats in this era. He’s getting prime Bron stats still and he’s washed haha.

Rebs happen diff with so many threes and yea jokic brings it up but I’d like to know what his percentage of assists w him pushing is v half court. Seems like he gets a lot in half court n pushes just to pressure, but def dimes there, too.

I think skinny shaq could be doin wild shit. Kemp could potentially do wild Stuff too. But ye ppl like bam is a point center too. It’s like no haha. He can push it up but a lot of cs do, but he undersized n he def can’t get a team into their offense. Jokic pushes to initiate offense and prol does a better job than Giannis who has ball in hands more id imagine.

But look back euros just see gm diff. Looking a kukoc vids etc, all those guys could push and pg. Likely Walton could have if he was brought up. The only dudes who can’t are kinda bad (vlade) on atg scale or are just too slow, but sabonis before injuries mite have done it. Pushing as a c just means u gotta get past cs cuz if a guard stops to help u just pass up… o shit I dislike drob cuz he’s soft but Imagine him as a point c. Not that level of a passer but his handle n speed was nuts even then.

-Smak

[Kblaze8855]

Why would he play different?

Well for one….a guy like Moses Malone played 20 years. He was 17 years in before anyone on his team made 100 threes. And it was all time great shooter Dale Ellis in Moses’ last year or two starting. Aaron Gordon has a career high of 121. As the 4. Whats Gordon the 6th best shooter on Denver? He shoots more outside than almost anyone Moses ever played with.

He would spend his career with virtually no spacing as we currently know it.

It doesn’t make him personally worse. It makes him have to play differently.

He might actually be more of a scorer with no 5 second backdown rule and the emphasis on post play. He’d be great. But he wouldn’t play like he does now unless he were able to take his current style and teach a coach to cater to it with his current knowledge.

Know his best shot actually?

Landing on the Nuggets.

If he could get on the team with Doug Moe or even better Westhead?


https://youtu.be/qF0-JmUNQs0


^
That madman would listen. He let Michael Adams take like 9 threes a game 30+ years ago despite being a low 30s shooter.

If he lands on a traditional team?

Hed have to make some huge changes due to personnel, coaching, and rules. 80% of his highlight passes couldnt happen without spacing. Go watch a highlight reel of him. Now imagine all those shooters catching balls he throws through dimensional rifts being a burly 4 at 12 feet or a tweener who can’t shoot at 16.

He wouldn’t be worse. The game would be worse for him.

It’s not a criticism of him. People play the game their situation demands. It doesn’t really matter what you might do if reality were different.

[tpols]

None of those guys were close to the playmaker or shooter that Jokic is. Even if you gave them the greenlight to play like Jokic I seriously doubt they're doing a hyper efficient 30/10/10 for a title run, even in this era.

Only prime Sabonis and Walton are close in terms of skill and IQ. But they had career ending injuries. Webber and Divac would have no chance at doing what Jokic is doing. Shit they played on the same team and still lost. Imagine having two Yolks on one squad.

[90sgoat]

^ That's a nice vid "we're gonna run, run and run some more" :roll:

I love that mentality, wish some teams would really go nuts with it today with the "run to corners" strategy. Just get a bunch of guys who can run and gun and go for 150+ every night.

[FultzNationRISE]

Jokic does benefit from having come up in the pros in what I like to call a “post Lebron world” or basically the year 12 AB (After Bron).

Coaches and scouts and everyone began imaging whole new possibilities about what a player could do once Lebron emerged. Creativity expanded, versatility exploded, even jockstraps began to be manufactured at much bigger sizes. This was all because of Lebron.

Jokic gets to opportunity to use all his gifts because Lebron lifted the league IQ by about a hundred points single handedly. So you really have to credit both guys with the success Jokic is having right now.

[tpols]

Why would he play different?

Well for one….a guy like Moses Malone played 20 years. He was 17 years in before anyone on his team made 100 threes. And it was all time great shooter Dale Ellis in Moses’ last year or two starting. Aaron Gordon has a career high of 121. As the 4. Whats Gordon the 6th best shooter on Denver? He shoots more outside than almost anyone Moses ever played with.

He would spend his career with virtually no spacing as we currently know it.

It doesn’t make him personally worse. It makes him have to play differently.

He might actually be more of a scorer with no 5 second backdown rule and the emphasis on post play. He’d be great. But he wouldn’t play like he does now unless he were able to take his current style and teach a coach to cater to it with his current knowledge.

Know his best shot actually?

Landing on the Nuggets.

If he could get on the team with Doug Moe or even better Westhead?


https://youtu.be/qF0-JmUNQs0


^
That madman would listen. He let Michael Adams take like 9 threes a game 30+ years ago despite being a low 30s shooter.

If he lands on a traditional team?

Hed have to make some huge changes due to personnel, coaching, and rules. 80% of his highlight passes couldnt happen without spacing. Go watch a highlight reel of him. Now imagine all those shooters catching balls he throws through dimensional rifts being a burly 4 at 12 feet or a tweener who can’t shoot at 16.

He wouldn’t be worse. The game would be worse for him.

It’s not a criticism of him. People play the game their situation demands. It doesn’t really matter what you might do if reality were different.

Most of Jokics assists are lobs and straight line passes to cutters. He isn't just kicking it to 3pt shooters. You ain't watching the games if you think that's the case.

[iamgine]

Kblaze was talking about how Jokic would play way different in 80s, 90s and before, but why?

He can do things that no center has done as well before, but is it actually different or just done better?

Vlade Divac? Chris Webber? Arvydas Sabonis? Bill Walton?

Are these not pretty much the same player as Jokic, what does he do different? I mean, he is obviously better, but playing style wise, give them the same rules and time with the ball and doesn't the game looks much the same?
Well Jokic score, pass and rebound at league leading level with extreme efficiency both in regular season and playoff.

None of those guys do that.

As an analogy, say there's a 6'4 shooting guard who average 7 blocks a game. Is that different or just done better? Cause there has been a shot blocking SG like Wade who can block shots too.

[Kblaze8855]

^ That's a nice vid "we're gonna run, run and run some more" :roll:

I love that mentality, wish some teams would really go nuts with it today with the "run to corners" strategy. Just get a bunch of guys who can run and gun and go for 150+ every night.


I think they gave up 194 points one preseason game. They didn’t give a single piece of a ****.

[NuggetsFan]

I think what this playoff run has really exposed is that alot of people don't watch Jokic much. Rightfully so because the Nuggets have always been pretty irrelevant. All the narratives about his defense, post play, and even his passing. There's this thing for some that they think Jokic just hits cutters. That he's not improvising and always looking to pass. You could take the ball out of his hands, take away the spacing, and he's still going to pick up assists in the post or near the bucket. He's still going to find guys in transition. Brad Daughtery averaged 4.4 assists one season in the 90's. Divac had a 4 assist season. Wilt obviously did bonkers numbers. Bill Walton put up 4-5 apg. Jokic has all-time great basketball IQ, anticipation, touch .. you can take away him bringing the ball up or the pick and rolls. The 3 point shooters. He's still going to find guys. He's just not looking to create contested midrange 2's. If it was the 90's his eyes would be open to that.

Would he be doing a triple double? Probably not. His defense would be considered drastically better tho. He's already underrated right now because like 90% of NBA bigs he can struggle with the switches. Imagine Jokic not getting attacked in the pick and roll/switches and him just getting a ton of possessions against a C? I think he scores more as well. The game is far easier for guards. Jokic is a massive guy and he doesn't get a great whistle. Look at his 5th foul last night. Jokic being allowed to play with more contact is a good thing. I think like most C's there's honestly a legitimate case to be made that there better off in past eras. You can't undersell the defensive toll of chasing around smaller plays and basically not being allowed to use your best asset to it's fully advantage. Also can you imagine all the face up jumpers/midrange game he'd have in the 90's? It'd be even more filthy.

[NuggetsFan]

Most of Jokics assists are lobs and straight line passes to cutters. He isn't just kicking it to 3pt shooters. You ain't watching the games if you think that's the case.

Yeah Jokic literally makes every pass. His coordination, anticipation and just overall basketball IQ is insane. Combine that with his touch with the ball and there's basically no pass on the floor from any position/situation where he can't find somebody. It's been well documented his entire basketball career his love for passing. He basically had to be forced into a scoring role because of his love of passing.

This idea that it'd completely disappear is kinda crazy to me. It's also crazy that people compare his passing to Sabonis/Divac/Webber etc. His passing is far closer to a PG. He's more Andre Miller than he is Brad Miller passing the ball. He has legitimate court vision. Like Brad Daughtry can average 4 assists in the 90's for a season but Jokic couldn't average 8 lol

[Kblaze8855]

Most of Jokics assists are lobs and straight line passes to cutters. He isn't just kicking it to 3pt shooters. You ain't watching the games if you think that's the case.


I don’t feel like arguing against things I never said today. It’s hot. I gotta go do some garden shit. Let’s save that for another time. What I’m saying is…instead of a team full of people who’s job it is to move people out of the way the game was played more like this….

The first 3 possessions Moses Malone got the ball in the playoffs the year they won the ring:


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2306110203290309.jpeg




https://www.hostpic.org/images/2306110204050289.jpeg




https://www.hostpic.org/images/2306110204450318.jpeg





Not about who is best. It’s about the players being very different in their approach. The shot there where Moses doesn’t have it Doc missed and he managed to tip it in. Whole paint packed on 3 straight trips. Jokics game would look different in that setting. Better or worse is a different question.


But everyone was right together to collapse on you…as they do on Moses here:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EminentUncommonCornsnake-size_restricted.gif






He still gets doubled now as does everyone worth a damn but the proximity of the extra defenders is entirely different on a team where the whole starting lineup makes 7 threes that season.

Hed still operate but he would quite literally be playing a different kind of game. Different does not mean worse. It means different.

You move 40 years through time…you likely have to play different. Not really a strange take. Things change in 40 years. Everyone would have to play different 40 years removed from their prime. Doesn’t matter much in an evaluation of him. But it doesn’t have to matter to be true.

Not really breaking news that games change across decades.

[Kblaze8855]

This idea that it'd completely disappear is kinda crazy to me.


Who said it would? Is there an argument I missed somewhere?

Someone has said Jokics passing would disappear…in some scenario?

What is he playing 21?

[FultzNationRISE]

You could still fire off some cool passes even in the days before the three point line.

https://giphy.com/gifs/joe-johnson-pete-maravich-DCg4syXf0jIt2

[Kblaze8855]

Of course you can. They’d just look more:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FrenchVainChickadee-size_restricted.gif



Than


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DefiantTameChipmunk-size_restricted.gif

[FultzNationRISE]

My pistol pete gif isnt loading for some reason.

But he does this sick fake hook where he leaves his feet, brings the ball back down as the defender jumps, then flicks a lob to a teammate just as he’s about to land.

[NuggetsFan]

Who said it would? Is there an argument I missed somewhere?

Someone has said Jokics passing would disappear…in some scenario?

What is he playing 21?

I've absolutely seen that. I mean Steven A Smith literally said he wasn't a dominant post player like 2 days ago lmao .. there's absolutely people who think Jokic's passing would be like Divac in the 90's. Jokic going from one of the greatest passers ever to a guy who averages like 3-4 assists would be seeing his passing disappear.

I also think another interesting angle is the draft. Jokic's "slow" start to his career as a 2nd rounder had an impact. The reason he dropped in the draft was because of his weight and the questions about his lateral quickness/defense. He wasn't some scrub. He had won the MVP in the Adriatic league. His game just wasn't a fit for the era. In the 90's he's getting drafted alot higher. He averaged 5 apg in 28 minutes while not even being a full time starter or having the offense revolve around him.

Thing about his 3 point shooting. He wasn't a natural 3 point shooter at all. Shot 33/32% his first two years, got it up to almost 40%, than shot 31% the next 2 seasons. His 3 point shooting in the playoffs is just absurdly clutch. He makes 1 3 a game on 35% from deep for his career in the regular season vs 1.8 on 41% shooting in the playoffs. He adjusted to the era. He put in work on the things he needed to. I don't see why with his basketball IQ/touch/skill level he couldn't do the same thing in any other era.

IMO certain players are era proof across all sports. Jokic is in the tier.

[NuggetsFan]

Of course you can. They’d just look more:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FrenchVainChickadee-size_restricted.gif



Than


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DefiantTameChipmunk-size_restricted.gif

I guess this is what's confusing to me. Nothing Bird did isn't something Jokic doesn't do? You could post gifs of Jokic doing the exact same thing? Even before he became a star. Jokic is just as dangerous with athletic forwards as he is with 3 point shooters. Faried's career fell off because he can't shoot but when he and Jokic played together he would find him all the time.

[Kblaze8855]

My pistol pete gif isnt loading for some reason.

But he does this sick fake hook where he leaves his feet, brings the ball back down as the defender jumps, then flicks a lob to a teammate just as he’s about to land.


Im sure pistol wishes he played when his long jumpers counted an extra point and he’d have the widest passing lanes ever seen. That said he’s probably happy Nobody counted most of his turnovers, or isolated him at 25 feet every single play until he got sat down.

Era giveth and era taketh away.

[Kblaze8855]

. I guess this is what's confusing to me. Nothing Bird did isn't something Jokic doesn't do?


Who said there is anything there Jokic can’t do? I’m specifically saying his passing highlight would look more like that because that’s where the people receiving his passes would be standing.

how is this confusing? If the people you are passing the ball to are standing 4 feet from you more often than not, you have to throw them different looking passes.


He could still throw this pass:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SillyKlutzyHoneycreeper-size_restricted.gif



This guy:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HairySpectacularJumpingbean-size_restricted.gif





Wouldnt be there. His career reel would not look the same. The players…do not stand in the same places anymore. Therefore…you must throw them different looking passes. Your offense is entirely different when the skill set and placement of the players…is 40 years of change different.

Is this still not clear?

[tpols]

I don’t feel like arguing against things I never said today. It’s hot. I gotta go do some garden shit. Let’s save that for another time. What I’m saying is…instead of a team full of people who’s job it is to move people out of the way the game was played more like this….

The first 3 possessions Moses Malone got the ball in the playoffs the year they won the ring:


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2306110203290309.jpeg




https://www.hostpic.org/images/2306110204050289.jpeg




https://www.hostpic.org/images/2306110204450318.jpeg





Not about who is best. It’s about the players being very different in their approach. The shot there where Moses doesn’t have it Doc missed and he managed to tip it in. Whole paint packed on 3 straight trips. Jokics game would look different in that setting. Better or worse is a different question.


But everyone was right together to collapse on you…as they do on Moses here:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EminentUncommonCornsnake-size_restricted.gif






He still gets doubled now as does everyone worth a damn but the proximity of the extra defenders is entirely different on a team where the whole starting lineup makes 7 threes that season.

Hed still operate but he would quite literally be playing a different kind of game. Different does not mean worse. It means different.

You move 40 years through time…you likely have to play different. Not really a strange take. Things change in 40 years. Everyone would have to play different 40 years removed from their prime. Doesn’t matter much in an evaluation of him. But it doesn’t have to matter to be true.

Not really breaking news that games change across decades.

Moses Malone couldn't pass like Jokic though. Which defenses accounted for. You swarm Jokic and its game over.

People have this misconception he's just passing to shooters. Most of Yolks dimes are in heavy traffic around the paint. MPJ is 3/22 from 3pt range in this series. KCP is 4/14. Denvers 3pt shooting outside Jokic himself and Jamal murray off the dribble has been ass and Jokic is still diming.

[NuggetsFan]

Who said there is anything there Jokic can’t do? I’m specifically saying his passing highlight would look more like that because that’s where the people receiving his passes would be standing.

how is this confusing? If the people you are passing the ball to are standing 4 feet from you more often than not, you have to throw them different looking passes.


He could still throw this pass:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SillyKlutzyHoneycreeper-size_restricted.gif



This guy:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HairySpectacularJumpingbean-size_restricted.gif





Wouldnt be there. His career reel would not look the same. The players…do not stand in the same places anymore. Therefore…you must throw them different looking passes. Your offense is entirely different when the skill set and placement of the players…is 40 years of change different.

Is this still not clear?

I guess because I think it already looks like that? I don't think his highlights are him slinging the ball to 3 point shooters all the time? Sure it happens because of the game but for example as someone who watched all of Jokic's career by far my favorite Jokic passes are anything in the midrange/near the basket. So yeah the passes to the 3 point line that are created by space wouldn't exist .. so he'd just have to pass elsewhere like he already does? Like the GIF's your posting of "won't be there" are just insane court vision. That exists in any place in time. It's not like he's a modern day PG who nobody's allowed to guard and just driving and kicking it out and taking advantage of all the space/3 point shooting.

[ILLsmak]

Also re passing, passing is about getting the ball to the right spot at the right time. The spacing makes it diff. Jokic is a passing savant and I love his gm. Not taking that away, but Larry was more of a threat off catch which makes his passing lanes different. Bird prol wouldn’t bring it up and initiate o like jokic, but half court off the catch bird better. Pip could bring it up and get it into o but he wasn’t throwing lasers. Jokic could benefit from a pg unless he wants to just hot dog stats. Get him the ball where he wants it and he can do anything w his size n spacing. Larry was like that, get it and see what’s gonna happen and fire it off. U know someone is a true virtuoso If they ever miss someone who shoulda done something. It looks bad but if u go back and look it’s like man if that guy moved right, that’s ez. There are so many insane passers tho. Just watching petrovic and him looping passes to bigs on drives. Clean passes, fast passes. Passes nobody else can catch. Theoretically if the passer and the receiver are on the same page there’s almost no way to prevent them from getting ball. Like dood set a pick for me mad close to basket and i threw it cuz I knew he’d get it. No one else could have. Some open gym shit v nba but same idea. C is such an important position in todays game but ppl didn’t know it til jokic. Zone buster. Too big to contest lobs. I love him cuz he is showing what a big man should be doing along w some all time (I told u I was gonna start haha) sauce.

But jeez u guys need to stop dick riding dudes lol. I do think it’s funny jokic doesn’t really have Stans. Like there isn’t a joker troll acct afaik. Even nugs fan ain’t stanning. He’s def able to be stanned tho. I just take offense at ppls casual takes that are just espn memes.

Bout to make a joker Stan acct. or someone else can and u can pretend it’s me. Hehhhh.

-Smak

[NuggetsFan]

I think an important thing to add is Jokic wasn't supposed to succeed in this era. Nobody thought he could. His game didn't fit. His didn't have the physique/athleticism. The Nuggets started Nurkic over him. Malone went away from "Jokic" ball at times early on. Than the narrative was he'd get exposed defensively and couldn't win a title. It's not like he was a top 5 pick who dominated the league from day 1 and everyone had these lofty projections. The skill/talent was there from the time he was a rookie but the question was always how he fit, how you built a team around him etc. The Nuggets eventually changed course and did so .. so I don't think it's unreasonable to think it could potentially happen in other eras. That a coach/team wouldn't see the ability and change course like the Nuggets did in the current era.

In theory a 19 year old Jokic fits much better in the 90's than he did in this era. Like Big Country went 6th overall in 1995 and had a two year peak of 16/8/2.

[Kblaze8855]

I've absolutely seen that. I mean Steven A Smith literally said he wasn't a dominant post player like 2 days ago lmao .. there's absolutely people who think Jokic's passing would be like Divac in the 90's. Jokic going from one of the greatest passers ever to a guy who averages like 3-4 assists would be seeing his passing disappear.




I saw that clip. You see one of the stills going around of Jj and Jay Williams faces when he said it?

And Vlade is actually a pretty good example of the difference in situation determining such things. Vlade averaged 1 assist per game playing the same minutes he later(while washed up) averaged 5. He was at 9 assists a game for a month in 04 when he was damn near done. That isn’t passing coming out of nowhere and when he averaged 1 it wasn’t gone. It was a different offense asking different things. It happens even to elite playmakers.

Absolute prime, 28 year old, Steve Nash averaged only 7.3 assists on the number one offense in the game. it may have been the greatest of all time to that point offensive rating wise.

Yet years later he’s the mvp. Years past his physical prime he’s doing 11-12 assists a game. He didn’t learn to pass. The game and team was such that he got more assists.

And it’s safe to say you put 03 Nash today he’d also get waaaaaay more than 7.3.

It doesn’t come and go. The style of play around you changes.

Jokic might get 8 assists a game in 1999. He might get 4. Hes the same player even if bums are missing shots and teams play a lot slower and he’s asked to score more.

[Kblaze8855]

People have this misconception he's just passing to shooters.


there isn’t one person on the entire planet who has that misconception. People would tell you that the entire NBA made 943 threes the season some of those clips are from and the Nuggets alone made 949 this year and he’s their primary playmaker. That doesn’t mean anyone walking this earth thinks he’s never thrown a lob or found a cutter. Point is there are literally thousands of outside shots today that did not exist at the time in question. The players were NOT standing in the places at issue so passing to them was simply not an option. The threat of someone passing to those players is the entire basis of modern offense. It’s hard to downplay the difference in the style of playmaking and attacking in general.

[tpols]

there isn’t one person on the entire planet who has that misconception. People would tell you that the entire NBA made 943 threes the season some of those clips are from and the Nuggets alone made 949 this year and he’s their primary playmaker. That doesn’t mean anyone walking this earth thinks he’s never thrown a lob or found a cutter. Point is there are literally thousands of outside shots today that did not exist at the time in question. The players were NOT standing in the places at issue so passing to them was simply not an option. The threat of someone passing to those players is the entire basis of modern offense. It’s hard to downplay the difference in the style of playmaking and attacking in general.

The point is Jokic is extremely used to and skilled at passing the ball in traffic which would translate to prior eras. Him and AG have a connection that's specifically built around a 10 foot radius by the bucket. If he got to play with the old school cats who made a living 15 feet and in it'd be even crazier. Denver isn't winning off 3s. Miami has made signifigantly more and theyre down 1-3.

[90sgoat]

My point is more that if you used to watch Euroleague before it got overrun with NBA prospects, the kind of center that is Jokic is pretty typical, he is just much better at it.

Sabonis the younger plays a similar style to Jokic. He is also a great pick setter and high post playmaker. Great rebounder, not great rim protector.

Jokic, and Sabonis (elder and younger) are actually not coincidences, they are what the european basketball system want from their centers.

Lets not pretend as if Jokic was born with his ball IQ and not trained into him.

[Kblaze8855]

I guess because I think it already looks like that?


It doesn’t. He’s not out here with the triple team collapsing so he kicks it “out” to a guy 12 feet away who drives right into his space to miss in traffic:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PastFarKillerwhale-size_restricted.gif




That is not what modern offense looks like because modern players play 20 feet apart.

The traffic and style of attacking simply does not allow those players to whip the ball around to open players.


The most emphasized aspect of the NBA offense right now is completely disregarded.

The players do not play or move the same which is why he would not play or play make the same way. How is this a question? Yank almost 3000 three point shot attempts off the board and have the people who took them standing at 14 feet. Why am I having to explain why his offense and playmaking will look different? Everybody’s does.

It’s not a criticism. It’s THOUSANDS of shots being taken from much closer. It changes the style of playmaking. I really can’t believe I have to spell it out that way.

[NuggetsFan]

I saw that clip. You see one of the stills going around of Jj and Jay Williams faces when he said it?

And Vlade is actually a pretty good example of the difference in situation determining such things. Vlade averaged 1 assist per game playing the same minutes he later(while washed up) averaged 5. He was at 9 assists a game for a month in 04 when he was damn near done. That isn’t passing coming out of nowhere and when he averaged 1 it wasn’t gone. It was a different offense asking different things. It happens even to elite playmakers.

Absolute prime, 28 year old, Steve Nash averaged only 7.3 assists on the number one offense in the game. it may have been the greatest of all time to that point offensive rating wise.

Yet years later he’s the mvp. Years past his physical prime he’s doing 11-12 assists a game. He didn’t learn to pass. The game and team was such that he got more assists.

And it’s safe to say you put 03 Nash today he’d also get waaaaaay more than 7.3.

It doesn’t come and go. The style of play around you changes.

Jokic might get 8 assists a game in 1999. He might get 4. Hes the same player even if bums are missing shots and teams play a lot slower and he’s asked to score more.

Yeah I mean we'll never know. I'm not denying spacing doesn't make it easier. That he doesn't benefit from the 3 point shot. I also think the assist statistic in general is one of the most overrated. I guess for me it's about the tools/willingness. We've seen him be elite as a passer from basically every level of the court regardless of numbers. Midrange, near the hoop, bringing the ball up, pick and roll as both the roller and handler, finding shooters etc. I don't think anybody on Denver was like this C is going to average X number of assists and dominate triple doubles. I think Malone saw the tools and built around that .. and I think we were pretty hesitant and it wasn't done as soon as it could of have been because of the era/fear of the defensive issues.

I actually think Nash is a good example in the sense that year there's probably situations where Jokic doesn't sniff a triple double and is more of a 5-7 assist guy than 10. His passing would still be considered insane. Even next year he could coast abit and it could drop back down to 7-8. Comparing his passing to someone like Vlady doesn't make sense to me because it's two entirely different tiers of players. Jokic's has elite court vision, touch, anticipation, and is as willing as any superstar to do it. Divac didn't. It's comparing someone great to someone who was good at it. So even if Jokic only averages 6 assists per game that's still going to show out.

IMO Jokic is one of the greatest passers ever and the triple doubles/assists are meaningless to me. Like sure there fun to look at ... but it's just how he breaks down the entire game.

[NuggetsFan]

It doesn’t. He’s not out here with the triple team collapsing so he kicks it “out” to a guy 12 feet away who drives right into his space to miss in traffic:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PastFarKillerwhale-size_restricted.gif




That is not what modern offense looks like because modern players play 20 feet apart.

The traffic and style of attacking simply does not allow those players to whip the ball around to open players.


The most emphasized aspect of the NBA offense right now is completely disregarded.

The players do not play or move the same which is why he would not play or play make the same way. How is this a question? Yank almost 3000 three point shot attempts off the board and have the people who took them standing at 14 feet. Why am I having to explain why his offense and playmaking will look different? Everybody’s does.

It’s not a criticism. It’s THOUSANDS of shots being taken from much closer. It changes the style of playmaking. I really can’t believe I have to spell it out that way.

I'm not saying it's criticism .. and you don't need to spell out anything. I also think your positing GIFs is kind of silly. Like awesome showing 1 single possession/play. No shit the game looks vastly different in different eras. That today has way more spacing. That there's no guarantee a player can take advantage without it ... or for that matter older players are guaranteed to be able to be as successful with it. Like slinging those long ass passes and finding shooters? Not everybody in today's NBA can do that.

IMO I think tools are what stand out. Those who have elite court vision and everything come with it will be able to find it no matter the game/era. Bill Walton/Wilt were slinging dimes. Sure it's going to "look different" for an entire game .. but what I meant which I thought was obvious is that there wouldn't be a pass that I haven't seen Jokic make. There wouldn't be a pass that would be like oh that's surprising. Just like when Nash went from Dallas to PHX. Numbers changed. He got MVP's. I would have called someone an idiot in 2003 if they were like Steve Nash isn't an elite passer or compared his passing to someone significantly worse. It looked different in Mike D's uptempo offense. PHX just took advantage of the tools that were there. Nash averaged 7.8 assists per game his last few years in Dallas and averaged 10.9 assists with PHX. Yeah I agree that Jokic could have a 3 APG or whatever variation depending on the system/era .. but I also think it's a valid point to say his court vision is special enough that someone is taking advantage of it no matter the circumstances.

[Kblaze8855]

I'm not saying it's criticism .. and you don't need to spell out anything. I also think your positing GIFs is kind of silly. Like awesome showing 1 single possession/play.

Very well. Here’s like a dozen more from the same half of the same game:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CircularHauntingInsect-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImperfectDeafeningIndiancow-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GentleClearIberianbarbel-size_restricted.gif


No cherry picking.

And the Moses pictures are the first three plays he touched the ball from the same game. Not cherry picked. Just the first game of that year’s playoffs.


if I wanted to cherry pick some brutal looking spacing, I promise you I could’ve done a much better job. This is just all shit I have laying around from unrelated discussions. Those gifs are 7 years old from a discussion not the least bit related to spacing or era differences. It’s just him playing. Those dudes played an entirely different game and what I posted is a pretty accurate representation of it all of it back to back to back not picked to make some misleading point.


that game was not this game so I don’t feel is unreasonable to say Jokic would not play this game while playing with those players and coaches and rules. Is that a hot take or something? It would all look entirely different.

[NuggetsFan]

My overall point is just that there hasn't been a C with his tools passing the ball. Comparing his passing to someone like Divac is crazy talk. Maybe Wilt but Wilt was just a freak who could have done that whenever he wanted to from everything I've read but preferred to be a scorer. I don't think he was as willing of a passer as Jokic for alot of his career. Even than I'm just talking 1980's until now. You know far more about the 1970's/1960's. Maybe Jokic would have been a bench player in 1971. No gifs that you've posted aren't anything Jokic isn't capable of. There's nothing like oh Jokic wouldn't have the basketball IQ, anticipation, court vision to pull that off. In more recent eras like the 90's or even Bird .. we've actually seen similar passes from Jokic already.

I guess that's where my confusion comes from. If he can find a player in the corner for a spot up 3 without even looking why wouldn't he be able to do something similar in other areas on the floor. It's not like everybody today is doing that. Westbrook did and he relied heavily on drive and kicks and his athleticism. So yeah it would look different in the sense of how the play finished .. but in terms of the tools I don't think it would look all the different. It'd just be a player making insane passes and having special court vision. We'll never know but Jokic is racking up assists on the Celtics/Lakers in the 80's IMO. Far less assists if he was Jordan's number 2 in Chicago IMO. If he went to a situation where he became the guy I do think there's a coach that takes advantage of his tools/skillset. It literally just happened in this era. Malone/Denver didn't think he was the guy, he didn't fit the era, but his skillset won out.

[NuggetsFan]

Like nobody in this era was like let's build around the 7 foot C who had previous weight issues, who has no lateral quickness, zero vertical leap, wasn't a natural 3 point shooter etc. Were not talking about a Curry/Harden or someone who was built for this era. Were not even talking about an Embiid/Towns/Ayton/Wemby who had the athleticism and projectable defense. Were talking about a 2nd round pick who 99% of the basketball community chalked up as not being able to cut it. Nobody seen him becoming THIS good. Not Malone or the Nuggets FO.

So I guess for me I don't think it's an easy sell to say this era is the best one for him. He's went from a 2nd round pick, to trying to earn a starting spot(and losing it), to an All-Star, to an MVP, and now a potential finals MVP. At every step there was aspects of his game people pointed to that didn't fit this era and would be an issue. I'd go as far as saying it was the consensus narrative as well not just a select few.

[ILLsmak]

I think it's more like... it'd be different haha. People are narrow minded. He could still be potentially exposed, like if Den had to face Dynasty GSW, they would prob get cooked up. Even w/ Harrison Barnes.

There is a changing of the guard in stars going on now. But I'm glad dude can succeed and I hope more people model their game after him. He doesn't really *need* to be 290 or whatever he is. He could just be a really skilled 7 footer. There are def potential spots for bigs and Jokic is not the perfect fit for this era, but his numbers are inflated because of it... everyone's are. Just like any ballers, he'd ball out in any era.

Prol be less GOAT talk tho.

-Smak

[Kblaze8855]

I guess that's where my confusion comes from. If he can find a player in the corner for a spot up 3 without even looking why wouldn't he be able to do something similar in other areas on the floor.


The confusion is based on you taking a defensive position after manufacturing false negativity from me. Nothing I have said in any mention of this person in his entire career suggests I don’t think he can make passes in traffic. I post passes from Bird and say the cool passes would look more like that and you take it to mean….Jokic can’t make said passes. Have you developed a bit of a persecution complex having to defend him from…whoever?

You haven’t seen me say anything bad about this guy his whole career. This is me 4 years ago:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?464715-Feels-like-we-have-cooled-on-Jokic-and-im-not-sure-why



But you think…I think…he can’t throw a pass in traffic? Can’t make a tip pass? That when I point out his team takes thousands of threes he’s throwing nasty passes to facilitate and those passes won’t be available when teams don’t take them….it means he does nothing but pass to shooters?

you know I don’t mind a good argument but at least argue with me about something it’s within the realm of possibility I might think.

I said he can’t play his current game 40 years ago and that should be absolutely without controversy. It has nothing to do with how good he is and I specifically said it does not matter what he would look like 40 years ago because it isn’t 40 years ago. What’s he gonna do if you put him in place of Kareem in those clips? Take 27 foot fade away two pointers? No because he’s not a ****ing moron. He will play a completely different game, make totally different passes, in totally different offenses, and be a different guy style wise. That’s common sense. It’s indisputable. It also doesn’t matter. But that’s what we do here. Talk about shit that doesn’t matter.

And now I have some weed killer to spread. Excuse me.

[NuggetsFan]

The confusion is based on you taking a defensive position after manufacturing false negativity from me. Nothing I have said in any mention of this person in his entire career suggests I don’t think he can make passes in traffic. I post passes from Bird and say the cool passes would look more like that and you take it to mean….Jokic can’t make said passes. Have you developed a bit of a persecution complex having to defend him from…whoever?

You haven’t seen me say anything bad about this guy his whole career. This is me 4 years ago:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?464715-Feels-like-we-have-cooled-on-Jokic-and-im-not-sure-why



But you think…I think…he can’t throw a pass in traffic? Can’t make a tip pass? That when I point out his team takes thousands of threes he’s throwing nasty passes to facilitate and those passes won’t be available when teams don’t take them….it means he does nothing but pass to shooters?

you know I don’t mind a good argument but at least argue with me about something it’s within the realm of possibility I might think.

I said he can’t play his current game 40 years ago and that should be absolutely without controversy. It has nothing to do with how good he is and I specifically said it does not matter what he would look like 40 years ago because it isn’t 40 years ago. What’s he gonna do if you put him in place of Kareem in those clips? Take 27 foot fade away two pointers? No because he’s not a ****ing moron. He will play a completely different game, make totally different passes, in totally different offenses, and be a different guy style wise. That’s common sense. It’s indisputable. It also doesn’t matter. But that’s what we do here. Talk about shit that doesn’t matter.

And now I have some weed killer to spread. Excuse me.

I've posted like 15 times in 4 years so there's no defensive position with you. Insidehoops is a wasteland. Anything I've said here today is more based on outside narratives from other places that are actually relevant in 2023 lol persecution complex? With the 2 time MVP who's leading his team up 3-1 in the finals. If anything it's the opposite. It's a victory lap for all Nugget fans who had to listen to the bullshit for years.

I just think it's an interesting conversation and something I've thought about over the years because IMO I think he fits better in the 90's than he does today. I think he'd have a far easier time defensively, he could have put more work in his midrange game which was natural vs having to expand his range, he could take advantage of his handle far more vs traditional bigs rather than small ball lineups, and the more physical play would be a benefit. Him being hand checked vs not being allowed to handcheck is a big win. I already clarified in my recent post that I have zero clue how he'd fair in the 1960's/1970's. I think players like Jokic/Embiid/Gobert all fit better in the 80's/90's era than they do in this one. Just like Harden/Curry/Dame/Booker etc. all fit this era like a glove and someone like Reggie Miller would be absolutely ridiculous today.

Obviously the game looks different. I've said that. I didn't think I need to .. like you thought I believed a game in 1980 looked like a game in 2023? Games in 2003 look entirely different. I was clearly talking about tools/capabilities. Jokic slinging a pass for a corner 3 with tons of space vs Jokic getting crowded and finding a guy a near the basket looks different but it's all just court vision. Jokic driving and kicking it out for a contested midrange J vs a contested 3 looks different. A floor general is a floor general. The creativity, willingness to pass, anticipation, basketball IQ, handle, touch etc. is what I've been discussing. Not the visuals or even the statistic. I don't know or give a shit if Jokic averages 6.6 APG or 9.3 in 1993. My point ..especially with Bird is that there's nothing I've ever seen from him that Jokic isn't capable of. There's no pass, defensive coverage .. where your like Jokic couldn't do something similar. Not that every single possession in 1986 looked identical to 2020.

[Im Still Ballin]

Jokic would be better in the '80s, '90s, and '00s.

His defensive issues would be mitigated in a league where the three-point shot is used less and dribble penetration is much harder to achieve. That's the biggest advantage by far.

It was only 9 years ago that San Antonio won a championship starting Tiago Splitter and Tim Duncan together. Hell, they played Duncan and Aldridge together and won 67 games in 2016. A 61-21 record with Pau Gasol and Aldridge starting together in 2017.

I'm pretty sure Denver at times was playing Jokic and Plumlee together. Can't remember if it was successful, though. I know they tried Nurkic and Jokic, which didn't work.

Could you imagine Jokic in the 2000s? When you could play Dirk with Brandon Hayward and Tyson Chandler? Duncan with whatever generic European center they had. In 2004, Vlade Divac and Brad Miller had Sacramento leading the league with a 43-15 record before Webber came back from injury and screwed everything up.

Jokic and Garnett would've been the dream pairing.

The second-biggest advantage Jokic would benefit from in the '80s and '90s is the Illegal Defense Rules. He'd be able to dominate way more with his post-up game; he'd be like a hybrid of Kevin McHale and Larry Bird. Slower and bigger than Kevin but laser-sharp passing like Larry.

He'd have at least 15-20+ post touches back then instead of the 9-10 he gets today. And he'd be better for it.

A game slanted toward big men on both ends of the court would obviously favor Jokic. The numbers are irrelevant, as it's all about the skillset in relation to the rules and style of play... which would determine the impact on the game.

[ILLsmak]

Jokic would be better in the '80s, '90s, and '00s.

His defensive issues would be mitigated in a league where the three-point shot is used less and dribble penetration is much harder to achieve. That's the biggest advantage by far.

It was only 9 years ago that San Antonio won a championship starting Tiago Splitter and Tim Duncan together. Hell, they played Duncan and Aldridge together and won 67 games in 2016. A 61-21 record with Pau Gasol and Aldridge starting together in 2017.

I'm pretty sure Denver at times was playing Jokic and Plumlee together. Can't remember if it was successful, though. I know they tried Nurkic and Jokic, which didn't work.

Could you imagine Jokic in the 2000s? When you could play Dirk with Brandon Hayward and Tyson Chandler? Duncan with whatever generic European center they had. In 2004, Vlade Divac and Brad Miller had Sacramento leading the league with a 43-15 record before Webber came back from injury and screwed everything up.

Jokic and Garnett would've been the dream pairing.

The second-biggest advantage Jokic would benefit from in the '80s and '90s is the Illegal Defense Rules. He'd be able to dominate way more with his post-up game; he'd be like a hybrid of Kevin McHale and Larry Bird. Slower and bigger than Kevin but laser-sharp passing like Larry.

He'd have at least 15-20+ post touches back then instead of the 9-10 he gets today. And he'd be better for it.

A game slanted toward big men on both ends of the court would obviously favor Jokic. The numbers are irrelevant, as it's all about the skillset in relation to the rules and style of play... which would determine the impact on the game.

Isb shit getn real. His issues would not be mitigated because foul trouble. No eurobig in history including sabonis, could defend without fouling. Dude would get it in but remm bam on him. Do u know what kind of posters dude would be on. Whether he could take it or not is on his mental. Kukoc said about mj n pip doubling him and trying to not let him make a shot: i was like wow but i dont know i guess thats how they play in nba. U know? If hes like that then he would still be a 25 30 ppg real monster. N ten boards. One block haha. It would be so awesome to transport someone like him back there but due to the fact he was inspired, its like a time paradox. Heh.

I got spyware from china on my phone to post this. Read what im sayin and tell me where im wrong @anyone. But its also just my opinion so chillllll.

Edit: also dream paring many ppl. Young shaq, my dude theyd be passin to each other lool. Hakeem, my goat pf cuz he could pf on any team, but man any player who could score if they got a good touch would shine w him. If u think they wouldnt have enough inside wronnng just sign some get hard pf n its all gravy. Jokic would be getn him buckets too.

Kg not a scorer tho thats one thing to think about.

Edit 2: sabonis sez thats the diff between me n u, jokic haha. Ish shown me elisha cuthbert. Jeff u sold out. This site used to be fire. Assholes like u are the reason script blockers exist. Boooooo. Like u werent already rich.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LEy4eD4j-aQ&pp=ygUXQXJ2eWRhcyBzYWJvbmlzIGZvdWxpbmc%3D

Also lol at sabonis being like yeah ok ok, everyone starts playing again and its like wait wat ur kicking me out for that? *** outta here lolol.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

Isb shit getn real. His issues would not be mitigated because foul trouble. No eurobig in history including sabonis, could defend without fouling. Dude would get it in but remm bam on him. Do u know what kind of posters dude would be on. Whether he could take it or not is on his mental. Kukoc said about mj n pip doubling him and trying to not let him make a shot: i was like wow but i dont know i guess thats how they play in nba. U know? If hes like that then he would still be a 25 30 ppg real monster. N ten boards. One block haha. It would be so awesome to transport someone like him back there but due to the fact he was inspired, its like a time paradox. Heh.

I got spyware from china on my phone to post this. Read what im sayin and tell me where im wrong @anyone. But its also just my opinion so chillllll.

Edit: also dream paring many ppl. Young shaq, my dude theyd be passin to each other lool. Hakeem, my goat pf cuz he could pf on any team, but man any player who could score if they got a good touch would shine w him. If u think they wouldnt have enough inside wronnng just sign some get hard pf n its all gravy. Jokic would be getn him buckets too.

Kg not a scorer tho thats one thing to think about.

Edit 2: sabonis sez thats the diff between me n u, jokic haha. Ish shown me elisha cuthbert. Jeff u sold out. This site used to be fire. Assholes like u are the reason script blockers exist. Boooooo. Like u werent already rich.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LEy4eD4j-aQ&pp=ygUXQXJ2eWRhcyBzYWJvbmlzIGZvdWxpbmc%3D

-Smak

Sure, Jokic could fit with so many great bigs in those eras.

I just feel like he and KG would work perfectly because they won't tread on each other's toes. KG likes to shoot and is averse to the paint and too much physicality; Jokic thrives there. KG likes to roam and switch, providing crazy help defense; Jokic would prefer to stay home and guard the rim.

The high-low actions would be amazing.

[ILLsmak]

Sure, Jokic could fit with so many great bigs in those eras.

I just feel like he and KG would work perfectly because they won't tread on each other's toes. KG likes to shoot and is averse to the paint and too much physicality; Jokic thrives there. KG likes to roam and switch, providing crazy help defense; Jokic would prefer to stay home and guard the rim.

The high-low actions would be amazing.

No doubt but w kgs skill set he should be able to get 60.

His career high is 47. That means imo even when he’s shooting like 80% he is not gonna just ball out. Nothing was really stopping kg from being kd inside arc. He was just like 20. U get 20 if u show up on a good offense. I need to go back and watch prime kg cook ppl but two passers turns out better in theory, but the amount of good shots they’d generate is insane. Then jokic would be the bad shot taker w kg crashing. Def cool. I see what u mean if u mean dream pairing for him to shine, but in my hot tub fantasy I’d want him passing to an elite scorer. He’d still get his pts cuz he can do nuts shit. Just mbe not 30. 25 tho. Kg was like that at best and better at d but jokic has stupid range and he’s knock down from three like kg is from 18.

Regardless, jokic would be aight. Peace.

-Smak

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jokic is already the 2nd best player of all time.

Anyone that says otherwise is a moron

[Sulico]

I heard the exact same thing about Steph, when he was rising to all-time great status.

"He wouldn't be the same in different ERA!" "He's just lucky that he plays now and not in the 60-90's"

It's nothing but a bunch of fans of other players\styles trying to discredit Joker.

The only thing that would happen if he was playing in different "Era" is he would be battling against smaller pool of less athletic, less skilled players with less knowledge about the game.

[Jasper]

just pray to your god that Joker , never goes to the Lakers...

otherwise I will be leaving this board as so many have already.

Miss you Gobb

[BarberSchool]

He might actually be more of a scorer with no 5 second backdown rule and the emphasis on post play.What year was the 5-second rule ? I didn’t realize it had a before/after….

[90sgoat]

What year was the 5-second rule ? I didn’t realize it had a before/after….

Maybe 1998 or there abouts?

[Mask the Embiid]

Jokic is already the 2nd best player of all time.

Anyone that says otherwise is a moron

https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif

[tontoz]

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g195/tontoz/Screenshot_20240520-124114.jpg