Jokic vs. Giannis

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm not even debating them regarding this season, Jokic has BITW locked up decisively after this title run. We're constantly hearing about Jokic vs. Embiid, but where do you guys stand in the Jokic/Giannis debate? While I would assume most would consider Jokic the superior player, are you putting Giannis on his level. Would you put them on the same tier as players, or has Jokic reserved his own spot at the top? I'm genuinely curious to see how you see Giannis in comparison to Jokic at this point in their careers, and heading into next season and beyond.

[ArbitraryWater]

Too early to just put Giannis behind him entirely, given that he was consensus better heading into the postseason this year, right?

I do think Jokic is better and prob will end higher all time, but nothing is finalized here. Can still swing either way.

[Micku]

I think Jokic/Giannis/Embiid are top 3.

But Jokic and Giannis are more neck to neck imo.

I see an argument that Giannis is better career-wise in terms of accolades for sure, but Jokic peaked higher in playoff performances imo. Giannis is right there. And I could see ppl arguing in his favor.

Going forward should be interesting. It could swing either way.

[ArbitraryWater]

I think Jokic/Giannis/Embiid are top 3.

But Jokic and Giannis are more neck to neck imo.

I see an argument that Giannis is better career-wise in terms of accolades for sure, but Jokic peaked higher in playoff performances imo. Giannis is right there. And I could see ppl arguing in his favor.

Going forward should be interesting. It could swing either way.

How does Embiid at this point deserve consideration as better than Curry or Doncic? If ever? Or Kawhi?

Or even KD? AD? Bron?

[Kblaze8855]

_____ vs whoever the day after they won the title is generally gonna go to whoever just won. Day after Giannis scored 50 to win the ring he’d have won a vote vs anyone. I remember when Wade won in 06 PTI having a segment where Wilbon was adamant he was better than Kobe who was at his peak.

These questions are always skewed by recent events. Jokic vs Kareem may lean Jokic today

[FultzNationRISE]

Giannis is pretty overrated tbh.

People see the two regular season MVPs and combine that with his one memorable playoff series being in a Finals, and sort of package that into this idea of an amazing and complete player. Similar to people going nuts when Kobe scores 81 or pulls off some crazy shot, and ignoring all the times he bricked his team out of the game. People act like his peak performances are the norm.

Giannis has simply not had a largely impressive playoff career for someone ranked as high as he seems to be. Phoenix made a HUGE blunder not building the wall against him, which had proven effective, and just let him run wild all over them to secure a championship. Most teams havent done that and he’s been a pretty inconsistent playoff performer as a result.

Giannis is EASILY behind a healthy Kawhi Leonard from my perspective, let alone Joker.

I know a lot of people are gonna “but but but” this and I dont feel like arguing it back and forth, but it is what it is. My analysis is that the typical basketball fan overestimates Giannis’ true impact in the playoffs. Youre all entitled to your opinions as well.

[Kblaze8855]

How does Embiid at this point deserve consideration as better than Curry or Doncic? If ever? Or Kawhi?

Or even KD? AD? Bron?


2 weeks into the season the first mvp ladder will have him like second. That’s how it works. Last year becomes last year really quick. The champ gets about a year of extra credit but all the losers start over pretty even.

First 52 point game we will have “Big wiggle alert” shit and talk of repeat mvp possibilities.

[dankok8]

Before the postseason I would have said Giannis but Jokic really proved himself massively with this run. It's not an overreaction to Jokic's title as the man just did something that not a lot of players in history did. 30/14/9 average on obscene efficiency isn't exactly ho-hum. It rightfully changes the perception of him. Honestly I'd say it's a wash between them. I think higher of Giannis than most. His ugly game doesn't mean it isn't super effective.

[Micku]

How does Embiid at this point deserve consideration as better than Curry or Doncic? If ever? Or Kawhi?

Or even KD? AD? Bron?

Career-wise or this year?

And what are your arguments against Embiid having Kawhi, Luka, Curry, KD, AD, and Bron this year?

Because I don't see an argument for Kawhi being better than Embiid this year. Both are injury-prone, but Embiid played better in the RS and played while hurt in the POs, and had a chance to beat the Celts. Kawhi could be up there when he's healthy, but like Embiid, he gets hurt. Ironically, health was on the side of Embiid in the RS.

I think Embiid was better than KD this year, and KD didn't play like he was the best player on his team when he was with the Suns. I feel like you should put Booker in that convo if you are going to put KD in there. And Tatum is in there too.

Luka didn't make the POs, but I thought Embiid played better than Luka did too, but not too much. I feel like there's an argument there. I just give Embiid the nod because his team was winning and Embiid seemed like he impacted the game better with his play, especially on both ends.

AD and Bron played better in the POs than Embiid in the POs to me. But again, injuries. I don't think AD is better than Kawhi, but he played better because Kawhi was hurt. LeBron could've played better too than what he played in the POs, but he was hurt too.

I don't think Curry was on quite on that lvl this year to me, but he is up there. He showed up the POs too.

But it's the same like Giannis, Tatum and Butler in the POs. When Giannis got hurt, he wasn't the same. He played through it better than Embiid. Butler when he rolled his ankle, he wasn't the same player. Tatum too. It's a case-by-case basis on what injury is harder to play through and the player's pain tolerance. If you want to say the player's injury-prone or whatever hold them against them, I could see that. Cp3 gets hurt every year. Kawhi gets hurt every year. Embiid too. And Butler.

[Smook A.]

_____ vs whoever the day after they won the title is generally gonna go to whoever just won. Day after Giannis scored 50 to win the ring he’d have won a vote vs anyone. I remember when Wade won in 06 PTI having a segment where Wilbon was adamant he was better than Kobe who was at his peak.

These questions are always skewed by recent events. Jokic vs Kareem may lean Jokic today

This. Recency bias is always very strong in the NBA.

That being said, I do think Jokic and Giannis are 1a and 1b right now. Embiid isn't in that convo

[FultzNationRISE]

This. Recency bias is always very strong in the NBA.

That being said, I do think Jokic and Giannis are 1a and 1b right now. Embiid isn't in that convo


If you had to win a playoff series tomorrow, would you take Giannis or Lebron?

Both healthy.

Be honest.

[SouBeachTalents]

If you had to win a playoff series tomorrow, would you take Giannis or Lebron?

Both healthy.

Be honest.
You really taking LeBron :lol Being serious, not your gimmick.

[Kblaze8855]

Giannis is pretty overrated tbh.

People see the two regular season MVPs and combine that with his one memorable playoff series being in a Finals, and sort of package that into this idea of an amazing and complete player. Similar to people going nuts when Kobe scores 81 or pulls off some crazy shot, and ignoring all the times he bricked his team out of the game. People act like his peak performances are the norm.

Giannis has simply not had a largely impressive playoff career for someone ranked as high as he seems to be. Phoenix made a HUGE blunder not building the wall against him, which had proven effective, and just let him run wild all over them to secure a championship. Most teams havent done that and he’s been a pretty inconsistent playoff performer as a result.

Giannis is EASILY behind a healthy Kawhi Leonard from my perspective, let alone Joker.

I know a lot of people are gonna “but but but” this and I dont feel like arguing it back and forth, but it is what it is. My analysis is that the typical basketball fan overestimates Giannis’ true impact in the playoffs. Youre all entitled to your opinions as well.



Once you’re willing to “Yea but…” a DPOY caliber defender also dropping 50 for the ring it’s clear nothing really matters. It’s just “What about the other years?” which is the only argument anyone has once someone completes the game. There is literally nothing at all Giannis can do that matters at this point.

Hes on the “How many times?” list not the “Can he?” list and that’s that. Jokic as well. People will always “What about when they lost….” the greats because there is nothing else to say. The “This is your king?” after future failures is the ladder haters use to crawl out of the holes they go into after their targets reach too high a level of success.

Theyre both gonna lose 8-10 more times like everyone does after they start winning.

All those years will be evidence they aren’t as good as people said when they won. That’s sports.

[Smook A.]

If you had to win a playoff series tomorrow, would you take Giannis or Lebron?

Both healthy.

Be honest.

Giannis for sure. LeBron's still great but Giannis is much younger and easily currently better

[Airupthere]

This. Recency bias is always very strong in the NBA.

That being said, I do think Jokic and Giannis are 1a and 1b right now. Embiid isn't in that convo

This.

Weird with Jokic though, he can dominate the statline without feeling like he did. It seems he just gets everyone involved. Whereas Giannis is just a beast that will put up numbers. I prefer Jokic at this point. Then again as you said, there is recency bias.

[FultzNationRISE]

Once you’re willing to “Yea but…” a DPOY caliber defender also dropping 50 for the ring it’s clear nothing really matters. It’s just “What about the other years?” which is the only argument anyone has once someone completes the game. There is literally nothing at all Giannis can do that matters at this point.

Hes on the “How many times?” list not the “Can he?” list and that’s that. Jokic as well. People will always “What about when they lost….” the greats because there is nothing else to say. The “This is your king?” after future failures is the ladder haters use to crawl out of the holes they go into after their targets reach too high a level of success..

It’s not about losing.

I rate Lillard very highly because he ALWAYS beasts in the playoffs, regardless of how far his team is built to go.

Giannis had his share of clumsy g-league gaffes DURING their championship run, it just happened they came prior to the Finals, and his team caught some lucky breaks on the way.

Im looking at the player, not the results. I dont believe Giannis is actually as good as people think, and thats strictly based on watching him play over the course of half a dozen post seasons.

Everyone can have their opinion. Im confident in mine.

[FultzNationRISE]

You really taking LeBron :lol Being serious, not your gimmick.

Yes, definitely.

Giannis has an extremely narrow game. Everything needs to be right. Refs need to give him calls, he needs specific guys around him, there needs to be enough time on the shot clock for him to back up to the midcourt line and taking a running start all the way to the basket. He is the most bagless superstar EVER by FAR.

The playoffs are not the regular season. You have to adapt and be universal. The Phoenix Suns gave him everything he wanted once upon a time in a finals and he looked brilliant. The rest of his career has not been like that and everybody ignores it for some reason.

[90sgoat]

How does Embiid at this point deserve consideration as better than Curry or Doncic? If ever? Or Kawhi?

Or even KD? AD? Bron?

Yeah Embiid is out of the top 5 and should be lucky to count himself top 10 after this stinker.

My top 10 in no strict order:

Jokic
Giannis
Durant
Curry
Luka
(Kawhi)
Tatum
Embiid
Sabonis

Something like that. Well down that line. I'd probably pick Sabonis now too.

[Kblaze8855]

Like I said once you’re willing to “Yea but….” a player having accomplished the only thing anyone can and that they did so in dominant fashion it’s all kinda pointless. there is literally nothing they can do. Someone who just decides Jokic isn’t that good and they don’t care he put up epic numbers on the way to the title with a team that’s good but not all time help what’s left to say?

You can “Yea but I don’t care” anything to still be right to yourself. It’s a pretty solid tactic actually. Once the reality of what someone can do, contradicts your preconceived notion of it based on your analysis of the game and you’re willing to just say “Still don’t think he’s good” you’re pretty much never wrong.

The results don’t matter. The effectiveness of the basketball doesn’t matter. You’re just right because you say you are. Pretty solid footing on which to build your home to be honest. Just being right…no matter what. I might get in on that with Wemby. My analysis says he isn’t that good and even if he goes and gets 30 and 13 and powers his team to a championship putting 66 up in game seven with 8 blocks? I don’t feeeeeel like he’s that good. Just my opinion. Might be worth trying out the next 15 years.

[FultzNationRISE]

Like I said once you’re willing to “Yea but….” a player having accomplished the only thing anyone can and that they did so in dominant fashion it’s all kinda pointless. there is literally nothing they can do. Someone who just decides Jokic isn’t that good and they don’t care he put up epic numbers on the way to the title with a team that’s good but not all time help what’s left to say?

You can “Yea but I don’t care” anything to still be right to yourself. It’s a pretty solid tactic actually. Once the reality of what someone can do, contradicts your preconceived notion of it based on your analysis of the game and you’re willing to just say “Still don’t think he’s good” you’re pretty much never wrong.

The results don’t matter. The effectiveness of the basketball doesn’t matter. You’re just right because you say you are. Pretty solid footing on which to build your home to be honest. Just being right…no matter what. I might get in on that with Wemby. My analysis says he isn’t that good and even if he goes and gets 30 and 13 and powers his team to a championship putting 66 up in game seven with 8 blocks? I don’t feeeeeel like he’s that good. Just my opinion. Might be worth trying out the next 15 years.


If you wish to interpret my post this way, that is your prerogative.

[tpols]

Giannis doesn't play basketball, he plays rugby but without guys being able to tackle him. The man can barely make a free throw and were comparing him to Jokic basketball wise?

Yolk has undeniable 1000x more basketball skill and prowess.

[Full Court]

I give it to Jokic.

Giannis has much better defense, but Jokic has more tools overall and can make free throws in close games. Giannis's inability to make clutch free throws is a serious flaw.

[Kblaze8855]

The playoffs are not the regular season. You have to adapt and be universal. The Phoenix Suns gave him everything he wanted once upon a time in a finals and he looked brilliant. The rest of his career has not been like that and everybody ignores it for some reason.


probably because if that year didn’t happen that way he would still be a near unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer at like 26 years old. All that run did was make it more laughable to ignore that he had been an all-time great for years before that. People arguing over a top 75 all time list that has 4 time all stars and dudes who made 2 all nba third teams. This guy is a double mvp, finals mvp, DPOY 30ppg player. He was getting significant all time status upon retiring, no matter what. Just so happens he put his detractors in the dirt early.

[StrongLurk]

I've never had Giannis as best player in the league. Definitely in the top five.

Jokic to me has BEEN the clear cut best player over the last three years.

[tpols]

Ayton at least stuck around to get his ass kicked by Giannis. Vs Jokic he straight up quit and sat out. :lol

Guy is a basketball cheat code. I've bet against him thinking he'd eventually cool down and he simply never missed.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Imo this is the hierarchy now. It's mostly for playoffs.
Tier 1: Jokic Giannis
Tier 2: Steph Lebron
Tier 3: AD Butler Tatum Doncic
Tier 4: Booker Mitchell KD Embiid Murray

Kawhi is too injury prone to make the list but if he was healthy i would put him in first tier. I first put Embiid higher but he had 2 bad playoff runs in a row. As did KD. Hard to rank those guys. Talent wise they are 2nd tier but injury affected KD i think and Embiid is just disappointing. Before making fun of my list, make your own too. It's hard.

[Kblaze8855]

Ayton at least stuck around to get his ass kicked by Giannis. Vs Jokic he straight up quit and sat out. :lol

Guy is a basketball cheat code. I've bet against him thinking he'd eventually cool down and he simply never missed.


He is one of those guys like Dirk at times who makes shots that feel like they can’t keep going in. Then they do. For 15 years.

[tpols]

He is one of those guys like Dirk at times who makes shots that feel like they can’t keep going in. Then they do. For 15 years.

Reminds me of playing on a hoop in the pool. Every shot felt like butter going in. Rim shorter, and lower body perfectly balanced. Their low center of gravity and high release makes every shot super soft and downward facing.

[Phoenix]

I feel like Giannis is still more susceptible to some kind of dropoff if you have the defensive talent/schemes to wall him off from the rim. Obviously he effects the game defensively on a different level, but I think what Joker does as an offensive anchor equalizes that. Not only in terms of his own offense, but his 'rising tide lifts all boats' facilitating ability and IQ. He's legit one of the GOAT passers and can pick apart a defense while scoring in the flow and he still ends up with 30 on crazy %, but everyone else around him is uplifted to the championship level. I don't see Giannis taking this Nuggets team to a chip. That said I think they're the two best players in the league, followed by Embiid and Luka.

[HighFlyer23]

Jokic is better than Giannis

Nobody on this planet is better than Jokic

Jokic is also ahead of him on the all time list

[j3lademaster]

Giannis doesn't play basketball, he plays rugby but without guys being able to tackle him. The man can barely make a free throw and were comparing him to Jokic basketball wise?

Yolk has undeniable 1000x more basketball skill and prowess.The difference in their offensive capabilities is evident in their respective finals. Giannis can't close games because he has no go-to moves, Middleton had to get hot from midrange to close the Suns out when things got close. Jokic otoh has me spoiled rotten. I'll see like 12/19 shooting adn feel like he had a bad shooting night.

That being said, Giannis is so elite on the defensive end it's still up for debate for me. If refs are going to continue to allow him(and they will) to do what he does, he's still a top 5 unstoppable offensive force in this league.

[theman93]

Giannis lacks a 3 point shot, a midrange game, a post up game, and a go-to move in isolation when the game is on the line. He lacks A LOT offensively that Jokic does not, not to mention the passing and vision Jokic possesses. That's way too much to make up to me when comparing the two, especially in this day and age where offense is so much more important than defense (Jokic is way underrated as a defender btw).

[iamgine]

'20-'22 Giannis was comparable to '21-'23 Jokic in the regular season.

Last season's Giannis was performing around this year's Jokic in the playoff. He just didn't have his Jamal Murray.

[kawhileonard2]

I'm not even debating them regarding this season, Jokic has BITW locked up decisively after this title run. We're constantly hearing about Jokic vs. Embiid, but where do you guys stand in the Jokic/Giannis debate? While I would assume most would consider Jokic the superior player, are you putting Giannis on his level. Would you put them on the same tier as players, or has Jokic reserved his own spot at the top? I'm genuinely curious to see how you see Giannis in comparison to Jokic at this point in their careers, and heading into next season and beyond.

Jokic vs Giannis is like the new Bird vs Magic on who do you rank higher when they are playing.

[basketballcat]

Even. Jokic has the greater playoff run but Giannis makes that up with defensive accolades. Jokic has the greater potential because of Giannis lack of shooting skill.

Embiid is ffaaaaaaarrrrr below both.

[ArbitraryWater]

2 weeks into the season the first mvp ladder will have him like second. That’s how it works. Last year becomes last year really quick. The champ gets about a year of extra credit but all the losers start over pretty even.

First 52 point game we will have “Big wiggle alert” shit and talk of repeat mvp possibilities.


and no one serious will care



Career-wise or this year?

And what are your arguments against Embiid having Kawhi, Luka, Curry, KD, AD, and Bron this year?

Because I don't see an argument for Kawhi being better than Embiid this year. Both are injury-prone, but Embiid played better in the RS and played while hurt in the POs, and had a chance to beat the Celts. Kawhi could be up there when he's healthy, but like Embiid, he gets hurt. Ironically, health was on the side of Embiid in the RS.

I think Embiid was better than KD this year, and KD didn't play like he was the best player on his team when he was with the Suns. I feel like you should put Booker in that convo if you are going to put KD in there. And Tatum is in there too.

Luka didn't make the POs, but I thought Embiid played better than Luka did too, but not too much. I feel like there's an argument there. I just give Embiid the nod because his team was winning and Embiid seemed like he impacted the game better with his play, especially on both ends.

AD and Bron played better in the POs than Embiid in the POs to me. But again, injuries. I don't think AD is better than Kawhi, but he played better because Kawhi was hurt. LeBron could've played better too than what he played in the POs, but he was hurt too.

I don't think Curry was on quite on that lvl this year to me, but he is up there. He showed up the POs too.

But it's the same like Giannis, Tatum and Butler in the POs. When Giannis got hurt, he wasn't the same. He played through it better than Embiid. Butler when he rolled his ankle, he wasn't the same player. Tatum too. It's a case-by-case basis on what injury is harder to play through and the player's pain tolerance. If you want to say the player's injury-prone or whatever hold them against them, I could see that. Cp3 gets hurt every year. Kawhi gets hurt every year. Embiid too. And Butler.


Embiid stinks it up in the playoffs every year. Never does anything special. Ever.

He has to be held accountable because at this point we have a reliable sample size that shows he just cant be counted on at this time of the year.


You cant say the same for the others.

Id probably prefer Butler over Embiid. Prefer as in, better.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yes, definitely.

Giannis has an extremely narrow game. Everything needs to be right. Refs need to give him calls, he needs specific guys around him, there needs to be enough time on the shot clock for him to back up to the midcourt line and taking a running start all the way to the basket. He is the most bagless superstar EVER by FAR.

The playoffs are not the regular season. You have to adapt and be universal. The Phoenix Suns gave him everything he wanted once upon a time in a finals and he looked brilliant. The rest of his career has not been like that and everybody ignores it for some reason.


Id absolutely take Bron BEFORE he had his injury late in the regular season.

But he hasnt been the same since.

Hes been limited period since then.

Its impossible to take him.

While I agree Giannis game shows doubt time and time again, if you review his playoff history, hes still balled out more often than not.

And his 2021 run was legendary.

So I look at it, and the only time hes really looked helpless since coming of age, was this run where he was coming off an injury.


So Im gonna give him the benefit of the doubt for now.


In 2019 he still wasnt at his peak imo. There he looked quite similar against Toronto.

[ArbitraryWater]

Imo this is the hierarchy now. It's mostly for playoffs.
Tier 1: Jokic Giannis
Tier 2: Steph Lebron
Tier 3: AD Butler Tatum Doncic
Tier 4: Booker Mitchell KD Embiid Murray

Kawhi is too injury prone to make the list but if he was healthy i would put him in first tier. I first put Embiid higher but he had 2 bad playoff runs in a row. As did KD. Hard to rank those guys. Talent wise they are 2nd tier but injury affected KD i think and Embiid is just disappointing. Before making fun of my list, make your own too. It's hard.


the Doncic takes are CRAZY after this year :oldlol:


How quickly people forget

[Axe]

Joker started out as a 2nd round, 41st pick overall. If anything, his vast improvement throughout the years has been nothing short of spectacular and impressive.