Jokic's title run when compared to other all time greats

[DarkSephiroth]

As Jokic just won this incredible championship, it made me think about most impressive runs in NBA history and his place among big men. I'd place this run second overall to Hakeem Olajuwon in terms of a hard carry peak level ring. People tend to overrate career and underrate peak level when comparing all time greats so I'm going to throw out some unpopular opinions here.

1. Bill Russell is the most overrated player of all time. I do not credit his 11 rings in an 8 team league when he was NEVER ONCE the best player in the league (Career 44% FG, 56% FT.) Not to mention he was one of like 5 Black dudes in a league where people needed to have second jobs to survive. Switch Wilt with Russell on the stacked 7 HOF'er Celtics with the greatest coach ever in Red Auerbach and he'd have won a ring every year he played. I respect what he's done for the game, but as a basketball purist... Get outta here, you can't tell me he's better than Wilt. Just look at their H2H stats, I've watched almost all their match ups (many late nights watching old 1960's ball) and Wilt is straight up better.

2. Hakeem Olajuwon is the most underrated player of all time. Robert Horry played with prime TD, Shaq, Kobe, and said Hakeem is miles better than all of them. The only Center in top 10 in steals, #1 in Blocks, and could guard all 5 positions. Michael Jordan said the only player he ever feared was "The big African". Oh, and one more important non-stat: the '93-'94 championship is the only one in NBA HISTORY without a second player who has ever been an NBA all-star. Hakeem carried scrubs to a championship. Peak level > career IMO, and Hakeem's peak level is greater than anyone not named Michael Jordan (and could be argued as even higher due to being the best defender ever.) Hakeem should be #2 in NBA History behind only MJ.

3. What Jokic has done this year, basically playing point guard and orchestrating the offense by himself is nothing short of amazing. His second best player Jamal Murray is a good scorer but an absolutely awful decision maker / Point Guard. But Jokic distributes the ball on time and on target to everyone on the team, making each player play their best ball with high confidence. He's basically Magic Johnson in a big fat white guy's body. Other than Hakeem, I've never seen anyone more vital to their team's success. Even Michael Jordan's Bulls went 55-27 without him in '94, does anyone think the Nuggets sans Jokic would win 55 games? This run is the second greatest run of all time behind Hakeem's' 93-94 ring, and if Jokic sustains this greatness we're going to be talking about him forever. He could end his career top 10 all time, or possibly even higher based on how good his level is. He just destroyed Towns / Gobert / Edwards, Durant / Booker, LeBron / AD all in a row without losing more than two games in a series. That is an all-time great run.

[SouBeachTalents]

You can't possibly claim this was an all-time carry ring when his 2nd option averaged 26 ppg :lol

In terms of all time playoff runs, I'd need some time to reflect on where it would rank. It'd be up there with the GOAT runs like '94/'95 Hakeem, '00 Shaq, '03 Duncan etc. But ranking playoff runs 25-30 years apart is a very difficult task, the rules, officiating, and style of play are wildly different now than they were in the 90's/early 2000's.

[StrongLurk]

We should compare Jokic's run to the last few years between these players - Curry, Giannis, Lebron, Kawhi.

[LeGoat4Life]

Definitely better than any of Lebron's run

[theman93]

We should compare Jokic's run to the last few years between these players - Curry, Giannis, Lebron, Kawhi.

Jokic's PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP are all higher. Has a higher TS% than everyone except for Lebron as well. Also interesting is that his usage was lower than all those guys except for Lebron. His 30/13.5/9.5 while also shooting....46% from 3 is unheard of. What he's doing is absolutely insane. I think Jokic's 2023 run is clearly better than all those guys.


Also, something else to consider...

https://i.ibb.co/BL0d2Xc/jokicdefense.png

[StrongLurk]

Jokic's PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP are all higher. Has a higher TS% than everyone except for Lebron as well. Also interesting is that his usage was lower than all those guys except for Lebron. His 30/13.5/9.5 while also shooting....46% from 3 is unheard of. What he's doing is absolutely insane. I think Jokic's 2023 run is clearly better than all those guys.


Also, something else to consider...

https://i.ibb.co/BL0d2Xc/jokicdefense.png

I can't stand people saying Giannis/Embiid are better than Jokic because of defense.

Individual defense is much easier to improve on/hide within team defense...what's NOT easier to improve is offense. We saw Jokic go against an elite two way player (AD) and Jokic got the better of AD because Jokic has GAME BREAKING offensive capabilities.

Give me the game breaking offensive player with average defense (Jokic, peak Curry) over a regularly elite offensive player with good defense (Embiid/Giannis).

[SouBeachTalents]

I can't stand people saying Giannis/Embiid are better than Jokic because of defense.

Individual defense is much easier to improve on/hide within team defense...what's NOT easier to improve is offense. We saw Jokic go against an elite two way player (AD) and Jokic got the better of AD because Jokic has GAME BREAKING offensive capabilities.

Give me the game breaking offensive player with average defense (Jokic, peak Curry) over a regularly elite offensive player with good defense (Embiid/Giannis).
I agree with your overall point, but It's not fair to lump Giannis in with Embiid. He's for sure had his struggles in the playoffs earlier in his career, but not only is he superior to Embiid defensively, he's MUCH better offensively in the playoffs as well.

Taking Giannis over Jokic is a reasonable take imo, taking Embiid is a joke.

[jlip]

1. Bill Russell is the most overrated player of all time. .

Stopped reading right there

[hold this L]

His second option scored 27PPG on 59% TS, what kind of nonsense is this about carrying? :facepalm The team was 5.5 NET while he was off the court, that's basically unheard of from pretty much any team during a PS run. Without Ja Memphis was -30 :applause:, without Curry Warriors were -15, without Embiid Philly was -9, without Davis Lakers were -4, without Booker , without Tatum Boston was -1, etc etc. Jimmy funnily enough is the only one where the team was at a higher level with him off the court.

Joker had an incredible postseason, but you picked the most moronic reason why it was dominant.

[tontoz]

Stopped reading right there

This one isn't much better


2. Hakeem Olajuwon is the most underrated player of all time.

[FultzNationRISE]

His second option scored 27PPG on 59% TS, what kind of nonsense is this about carrying? :facepalm The team was 5.5 NET while he was off the court, that's basically unheard of from pretty much any team during a PS run. Without Ja Memphis was -30 :applause:, without Curry Warriors were -15, without Embiid Philly was -9, without Davis Lakers were -4, without Booker , without Tatum Boston was -1, etc etc. Jimmy funnily enough is the only one where the team was at a higher level with him off the court.

Joker had an incredible postseason, but you picked the most moronic reason why it was dominant.


The Nuggets bench def had a great playoff run and deserve a lot of credit. Both to Calvin Booth for how it was assembled, Malone for how it was used, and the players themselves for how they performed.

That said, I believe it is absolutely true that simply playing with Jokic has LIFTED his teammates understanding and confidence in teamwork, and his example made them better ball players even when he went off the court. When youve got a star player who plays with that level of professionalism, it makes other guys feel silly to then go out there and try to be selfish hero ball divas. Same effect Duncan had on San Antonio’s culture. And of course you have to bring in teammates willing to make that commitment, which both organizations did. But nobody would have looked at the Nuggets bench in a vaccuum and said “Bruce Brown, Christian Brown, Jeff Green, WOW!!!”

Jokic sets a tone few other stars have. And the guys around stepped up.

[FultzNationRISE]

That said, I do hate the “carry” narrative. It VASTLY undersells how complete any team that wins a championship actually is. There is no carrying a team to a chip in basketball. If your team is not at least VERY good, youre not gonna win a chip. Yes, elite players take their team from very good to unstoppable. But nobody takes a bad team past 29 other teams paid to get in their way. It takes a great team to win a title. Comparing guys by how much they “carried” is useless. There are better ways to compare guys.

[FultzNationRISE]

^ That said, Lebron did carry his teams.

He’s the exception.

[Duderonomy]

It seems like every year the media does this is Kawhi, Gianis, Jokic , etc is having the best postseason we ever seen (until the next one) Someone wins a championship every year and someone is the best player on the team. Do it, run it back 5 or more times then we will talk. Shaq got 3 finals MVPs in a row and forced teams to leave a roster spot open for any 7ft that was good enough for 4ppg and 6 fouls.

[Micku]

https://i.redd.it/ym2rgvsr6v5b1.jpg


They compared stats across era, but Jokic was pretty good.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://i.redd.it/ym2rgvsr6v5b1.jpg


They compared stats across era, but Jokic was pretty good.
Perk must have been fuming during that segment.

[FultzNationRISE]

https://i.redd.it/ym2rgvsr6v5b1.jpg



Thats what everyones been saying. He’s basically a hybrid of all the great players.

He IS the Unicorn.

He reminds me so much of Gronk. Both aesthetically and athletically. It doesnt take away from Tony Gonzales or Kellen Winslow Sr or Antonio Gates to look at what this new guy does and just say “Those guys were amazing but this dude is something different. He’s a ****ing mutant.”

[SouBeachTalents]

Thats what everyones been saying. He’s basically a hybrid of all the great players.

He IS the Unicorn.

He reminds me so much of Gronk. Both aesthetically and athletically. It doesnt take away from Tony Gonzales or Kellen Winslow Sr or Antonio Gates to look at what this new guy does and just say “Those guys were amazing but this dude is something different. He’s a ****ing mutant.”
You really think Gronk was on another level than Kelce? I honestly think he's at worst as good as Gronk, and was putting up big numbers before Mahomes even got there.

[StrongLurk]

It seems like every year the media does this is Kawhi, Gianis, Jokic , etc is having the best postseason we ever seen (until the next one) Someone wins a championship every year and someone is the best player on the team. Do it, run it back 5 or more times then we will talk. Shaq got 3 finals MVPs in a row and forced teams to leave a roster spot open for any 7ft that was good enough for 4ppg and 6 fouls.

Shaq is the most underrated GOAT IMO. I honestly want to slot him at number 5 all time, but so many people downplay him because of Kobe's popularity.

[FultzNationRISE]

You really think Gronk was on another level than Kelce? I honestly think he's at worst as good as Gronk, and was putting up big numbers before Mahomes even got there.

Tbh I havent watched much of the NFL the last few years, so I dont know a lot about Kelce’s numbers or specific impact. But Im talking about when Gronk was at his peak. It was already clear he was the best tight end ever to that point. There was no need to wait to admit it. The dude looked like an actual mutant out there, making all these great defenders look like helpless little boys. He was the Jim Brown of tight ends. It wasnt a matter of determining greatness by “lets see how the numbers compare at the end of their career” it was a matter of “we’ve clearly never seen anyone who can do all this.”

[NBAGOAT]

his team definitely played really well on both ends around him, cant call this a carry job. Do keep in mind even though murray's 26ppg on 58.6ts% looks really impressive, 58ts% was the league average this year and 26ppg wasnt even in the top 10 among playoff scorers. He wasnt historically good for a 2nd option if you account for era. Top 10 in 2016 wouldve been like 24 ppg and klay scored that much on above average efficiency and isnt considered an top tier 2nd option.

[Phoenix]

^ That said, Lebron did carry his teams.

He’s the exception.

I read your post immediately above this and thought something was off. Took all of 3 seconds to realize there wasn't a Lebron plug and thought you were perhaps falling off.

[FilmyCogTurner]

This is pretty extreme. Had Giannis's ring been won this year we would be hearing the same thing said about him.

Look at the Nuggets roster after Jokic, you have Murray, AGordon, Porter, KCP, Brown.. that is pretty damn good when compared to their competition. It's a great championship for sure but they did what they were supposed to do when you factor in who they had to beat.

Mavs 2011 still holds more weight in my eyes and I love Jokic but we have to be honest on how much this team was challenged.

[SouBeachTalents]

This is pretty extreme. Had Giannis's ring been won this year we would be hearing the same thing said about him.

Look at the Nuggets roster after Jokic, you have Murray, AGordon, Porter, KCP, Brown.. that is pretty damn good when compared to their competition. It's a great championship for sure but they did what they were supposed to do when you factor in who they had to beat.

Mavs 2011 still holds more weight in my eyes and I love Jokic but we have to be honest on how much this team was challenged.
I honestly think Jokic beat better teams in the West than Dirk did in 2011. 2023 Suns/Lakers are more talented than the 2011 Thunder/Lakers.

[theman93]

You really think Gronk was on another level than Kelce? I honestly think he's at worst as good as Gronk, and was putting up big numbers before Mahomes even got there.

Receiving wise they're close. But blocking? Gronk runs laps around him. You could put him on an island against an edge and he would hold his own.

[DarkSephiroth]

Stopped reading right there

Well then, if you choose to ignore facts and stick to your opinion, that's cool. If Wilt were drafted to Boston and had 7 HOF'ers, he'd have won a ring every year.

Here's their H2H in case you're wondering: 94 games against each other
Wilt: 29.9PPG, 28.1RPG, 49% FG
Russell: 14.2PPG 22.9 RPG, 37% FG.

Who is the better player based on their H2H above? That's like saying Robert Horry is better than Jordan because 7 Rings > 6.

[DarkSephiroth]

You can't possibly claim this was an all-time carry ring when his 2nd option averaged 26 ppg :lol

In terms of all time playoff runs, I'd need some time to reflect on where it would rank. It'd be up there with the GOAT runs like '94/'95 Hakeem, '00 Shaq, '03 Duncan etc. But ranking playoff runs 25-30 years apart is a very difficult task, the rules, officiating, and style of play are wildly different now than they were in the 90's/early 2000's.

In my opinion, Jamal Murray is an awful decision maker / Point Guard. He was able to score a lot of points because of what I call the "Fat-boy Handoff Screen Action" with Jokic. Jokic's incredible playmaking allowed Murray to attack at will, although I will admit Jamal Murray had a great playoff run he's pretty low for a second option on a dominant championship team. 2000 Shaq had Kobe and a laundry list of solid role players like Glen Rice, Harper, Fisher, Brian Shaw, etc. And Shaq's brutal FT shooting kinda hurts late in games. Duncan's runs were excellent as well, but he had Ginobili / Parker / David Robinson (although he didn't have Ginobili / Parker in '99, that's probably the best single player run in recent memory). Most of these players I listed are better than 6'2 Jamal Murray being the 2nd best player. So it is an all-time great run, especially considering who he dispatched on the way. Towns / Gobert / Edwards, Durant / Booker / CP3, Lebron / AD is a wall mount worthy trophy level hunt.

And just to clarify, I don't think Denver is a team full of scrubs. Mike Malone did an incredible job of promoting movement / cutting / teamwork, and everyone bought into the system. Aaron Gordon played great defense and his size / athleticism was great. Porter Jr had a good playoffs until the Finals, but still having a 6'10 guy out there working hard is nice. And obviously Jamal Murray is still a great player / scorer despite not being the best decision maker. Bruce Brown and Christian Braun off the bench brought energy and hustle, with some timely plays. Overall, any championship is a team effort. But I have not seen a team more reliant on one player in a long long time, and Jokic's play definitely impressed me.

[hold this L]

The Nuggets bench def had a great playoff run and deserve a lot of credit. Both to Calvin Booth for how it was assembled, Malone for how it was used, and the players themselves for how they performed.

That said, I believe it is absolutely true that simply playing with Jokic has LIFTED his teammates understanding and confidence in teamwork, and his example made them better ball players even when he went off the court. When youve got a star player who plays with that level of professionalism, it makes other guys feel silly to then go out there and try to be selfish hero ball divas. Same effect Duncan had on San Antonio’s culture. And of course you have to bring in teammates willing to make that commitment, which both organizations did. But nobody would have looked at the Nuggets bench in a vaccuum and said “Bruce Brown, Christian Brown, Jeff Green, WOW!!!”

Jokic sets a tone few other stars have. And the guys around stepped up.
Where was that level of professionalism in every other season? Jokic is great because he also improves teams but giving him credit for how others do when he's on the bench makes absolutely zero sense. The team was incredible this post season, as was Jok. And yes you can absolutely look at that bench and be impressed, one guy was arguably the best player vs Boston when KD and Kyrie were on the team. He's one of the best off the bench players in the entire league. They got the right players along with what they already had, their GM deserves a lot of credit for acquiring the final pieces to the puzzle.

These guys are going to be a problem for years in the league.

[j3lademaster]

https://i.redd.it/ym2rgvsr6v5b1.jpg


They compared stats across era, but Jokic was pretty good.That's insane.

[FultzNationRISE]

Where was that level of professionalism in every other season? Jokic is great because he also improves teams but giving him credit for how others do when he's on the bench makes absolutely zero sense. The team was incredible this post season, as was Jok. And yes you can absolutely look at that bench and be impressed, one guy was arguably the best player vs Boston when KD and Kyrie were on the team. He's one of the best off the bench players in the entire league. They got the right players along with what they already had, their GM deserves a lot of credit for acquiring the final pieces to the puzzle.

These guys are going to be a problem for years in the league.


I guarantee you the Nuggets players themselves would tell you that seeing Jokic’s focus, unselfishness, consistency etc first hand has made them better as individuals. As I said, guys feel silly going out there playing low IQ ball next to Jokic. On teams that dont have that kind of leadership, players dont stick out as much for making low IQ plays and feel less inhibited to do it.

You can actually see it over the course of watching them the last couple years. He has contributed to the mentality guys go out there and play with. It’s contagious. Obviously the players’ talent level doesnt change, but they absolutely play with better discipline knowing theyll be the obvious weak link if they dont.

Same impact on a team’s basketball culture Lebron is famous for creating. It’s a real thing.

[j3lademaster]

In my opinion, Jamal Murray is an awful decision maker / Point Guard. He was able to score a lot of points because of what I call the "Fat-boy Handoff Screen Action" with Jokic. Jokic's incredible playmaking allowed Murray to attack at will, although I will admit Jamal Murray had a great playoff run he's pretty low for a second option on a dominant championship team. 2000 Shaq had Kobe and a laundry list of solid role players like Glen Rice, Harper, Fisher, Brian Shaw, etc. And Shaq's brutal FT shooting kinda hurts late in games. Duncan's runs were excellent as well, but he had Ginobili / Parker / David Robinson (although he didn't have Ginobili / Parker in '99, that's probably the best single player run in recent memory). Most of these players I listed are better than 6'2 Jamal Murray being the 2nd best player. So it is an all-time great run, especially considering who he dispatched on the way. Towns / Gobert / Edwards, Durant / Booker / CP3, Lebron / AD is a wall mount worthy trophy level hunt.

And just to clarify, I don't think Denver is a team full of scrubs. Mike Malone did an incredible job of promoting movement / cutting / teamwork, and everyone bought into the system. Aaron Gordon played great defense and his size / athleticism was great. Porter Jr had a good playoffs until the Finals, but still having a 6'10 guy out there working hard is nice. And obviously Jamal Murray is still a great player / scorer despite not being the best decision maker. Bruce Brown and Christian Braun off the bench brought energy and hustle, with some timely plays. Overall, any championship is a team effort. But I have not seen a team more reliant on one player in a long long time, and Jokic's play definitely impressed me.Murray is similar type of player to Kyrie. They're single minded in their approach, but the one thing they specialize in, they're great at and great under pressure. But to win with those guys you need a do-it-all superstar like Jokic or Lebron, which obviously don't grow on trees.

[j3lademaster]

I guarantee you the Nuggets players themselves would tell you that seeing Jokic’s focus, unselfishness, consistency etc first hand has made them better as individuals. As I said, guys feel silly going out there playing low IQ ball next to Jokic. On teams that dont have that kind of leadership, players dont stick out as much for making low IQ plays and feel less inhibited to do it.

You can actually see it over the course of watching them the last couple years. He has contributed to the mentality guys go out there and play with. It’s contagious. Obviously the players’ talent level doesnt change, but they absolutely play with better discipline knowing theyll be the obvious weak link if they dont.

Same impact on a team’s basketball culture Lebron is famous for creating. It’s a real thing.Yup, superstars that change the culture of a team. When you know you will be rewarded for running the court, moving offball/ cutting etc it will translate to effort everywhere on the court

[NBAGOAT]

Where was that level of professionalism in every other season? Jokic is great because he also improves teams but giving him credit for how others do when he's on the bench makes absolutely zero sense. The team was incredible this post season, as was Jok. And yes you can absolutely look at that bench and be impressed, one guy was arguably the best player vs Boston when KD and Kyrie were on the team. He's one of the best off the bench players in the entire league. They got the right players along with what they already had, their GM deserves a lot of credit for acquiring the final pieces to the puzzle.

These guys are going to be a problem for years in the league.

Eh their bench didn’t do much outside Bruce. To your bigger point Bruce is likely starting for some other team next year. Denver can’t pay him. Denver’s starting lineup will still be one of the best in the league but their bench could be trash

[90sgoat]

The first game I saw Jokic play in the playoffs (first Lakers game), I said to my sportsbetting pal, that he better put some money down on Jokic as FMVP.

It was instantly obvious to me that I was watching an all time great after that game.

Most people probably haven't watched Jokic in the playoffs enough to really understand how great he is. There's no doubt he's in the absolute top of peak performances. Most dominant performance since 2001 Shaq.

[theman93]

If Jokic keeps this statistical output up for another ~6 years and adds 2 more championships+FMVP's I would have no problem entertaining the idea of him leapfrogging Magic.

[hold this L]

I guarantee you the Nuggets players themselves would tell you that seeing Jokic’s focus, unselfishness, consistency etc first hand has made them better as individuals. As I said, guys feel silly going out there playing low IQ ball next to Jokic. On teams that dont have that kind of leadership, players dont stick out as much for making low IQ plays and feel less inhibited to do it.

You can actually see it over the course of watching them the last couple years. He has contributed to the mentality guys go out there and play with. It’s contagious. Obviously the players’ talent level doesnt change, but they absolutely play with better discipline knowing theyll be the obvious weak link if they dont.

Same impact on a team’s basketball culture Lebron is famous for creating. It’s a real thing.

Except that Lebron's teams tank without him on floor, so that's a terrible example. I guess Lebron is a legendary terrible leader by that metric.

[hold this L]

Eh their bench didn’t do much outside Bruce. To your bigger point Bruce is likely starting for some other team next year. Denver can’t pay him. Denver’s starting lineup will still be one of the best in the league but their bench could be trash

I thought Bruce had 1 more year? They might fall apart, but we have to wait and see. The previous season the bench tanked at a legendary level without Jokic. During the PS, they were barely any worse with him off the floor. Very bizarre turnaround, but it could be a case where a lot of things click at the end. Most championship runs are about timing.

[NBAGOAT]

I thought Bruce had 1 more year? They might fall apart, but we have to wait and see. The previous season the bench tanked at a legendary level without Jokic. During the PS, they were barely any worse with him off the floor. Very bizarre turnaround, but it could be a case where a lot of things click at the end. Most championship runs are about timing.

He’s got a player option that he’ll 100% decline because he’s so underpaid

[rmt]

In my opinion, Jamal Murray is an awful decision maker / Point Guard. He was able to score a lot of points because of what I call the "Fat-boy Handoff Screen Action" with Jokic. Jokic's incredible playmaking allowed Murray to attack at will, although I will admit Jamal Murray had a great playoff run he's pretty low for a second option on a dominant championship team. 2000 Shaq had Kobe and a laundry list of solid role players like Glen Rice, Harper, Fisher, Brian Shaw, etc. And Shaq's brutal FT shooting kinda hurts late in games. Duncan's runs were excellent as well, but he had Ginobili / Parker / David Robinson (although he didn't have Ginobili / Parker in '99, that's probably the best single player run in recent memory). Most of these players I listed are better than 6'2 Jamal Murray being the 2nd best player. So it is an all-time great run, especially considering who he dispatched on the way. Towns / Gobert / Edwards, Durant / Booker / CP3, Lebron / AD is a wall mount worthy trophy level hunt.

And just to clarify, I don't think Denver is a team full of scrubs. Mike Malone did an incredible job of promoting movement / cutting / teamwork, and everyone bought into the system. Aaron Gordon played great defense and his size / athleticism was great. Porter Jr had a good playoffs until the Finals, but still having a 6'10 guy out there working hard is nice. And obviously Jamal Murray is still a great player / scorer despite not being the best decision maker. Bruce Brown and Christian Braun off the bench brought energy and hustle, with some timely plays. Overall, any championship is a team effort. But I have not seen a team more reliant on one player in a long long time, and Jokic's play definitely impressed me.

2003 Manu, Parker and DRob were not better than 2023 Murray:

2003 Finals
Parker 14 pts 4.2 assts 38.6%FG (20 years old, 2nd year player)
Manu 8.7 pts 4.5 rebs 34.8%FG (rookie)
DRob 10.8 pts 7.3 rebs 61.1%FG (37 years old)

2023 Finals
Murray 21.4 pts 6.2 rebs 10 assts 45.1%FG
Gordon 14 pts 7.4 rebs 60.4%FG

[FultzNationRISE]

If Jokic keeps this statistical output up for another ~6 years and adds 2 more championships+FMVP's I would have no problem entertaining the idea of him leapfrogging Magic.

But if he keeps this same level up and lets say Murray and Porter Jr get hurt again and he doesnt get a realistic chance to win championships and fmvp’s, that makes you rate him as less of a player…?

[90sgoat]

If Jokic keeps this statistical output up for another ~6 years and adds 2 more championships+FMVP's I would have no problem entertaining the idea of him leapfrogging Magic.

Depends on where you rank Magic?

I'm late to the Jokic horseriding crew, but imo, he has more of a career trajectory to Larry Bird.

He's been absolutely mind blowingly elite for the last 3 years, but his team wasn't there. His peak right now is absurd, dominant, aesthetic, allround. Not a single negative thing you can put on it.

If he repeats, imo, he is already top 10. I'd push out someone like Hakeem, Wilt or Lebron.

If he can get to 3 or 4 rings in a career, then he'll be solidly around Duncan, Bird, Magic level.

[bdonovan]

1. Bill Russell is the most overrated player of all time. I do not credit his 11 rings in an 8 team league when he was NEVER ONCE the best player in the league (Career 44% FG, 56% FT.)

As has been pointed out, 44% FG in a typical year Russell played was often sufficient to be in the top 10. You cannot export numbers from decades ago to today and compare them apples to apples.



His second best player Jamal Murray is a good scorer but an absolutely awful decision maker / Point Guard.

Murray's job is to score and he's highly effective in that role; shooting 40% from 3 point range during the season. He averaged 10 assists/game in the Finals, more than Jokic, and with no more TO's/game than Jokic. We can celebrate player's greatness without trying to detract from their teammates in order to elevate them further.

[Wally450]

Stopped reading right there

Yep. I obviously wasn't alive to watch Bill in his prime, but the stories you read throughout the years about what kind of competitor he was, it speaks volumes what he was able to do at that time.

Wilt was all about stats. Russell was all about winning.

[Gotterdammerung]

Stopped reading right there

Ditto.

Bill Russell is frequently subjected to undue criticism, undervaluation, or outright neglect in discussions about basketball greats. Although he retired over half a century ago, which predates the birth of a majority of NBA enthusiasts, it is essential to recognize the wealth of information available about him, including video footage, statistics, and testimonials from teammates and adversaries.

Far from being just an outstanding rebounder and defender, Russell was a double-digit scorer and an elite passer. Over the course of 20 years in organized basketball, encompassing high school, college, the Olympics, and the NBA, his teams consistently emerged as champions.

In high school, he led McClymonds to two California State basketball titles. At the University of San Francisco, he was instrumental in a 55-game winning streak, which included two NCAA championships. He didn’t stop there. He went on to captain the USA basketball team to a glorious victory, clinching the gold medal at the 1956 Olympic Games in Melbourne, Australia.

Upon joining the NBA, Russell's impact was immediately felt as he steered the Boston Celtics to their first title in 1957 during his rookie season. Furthermore, he broke new ground by becoming the NBA's first player-coach, a role in which he added two more championships to his name. When he retired, he had amassed an awe-inspiring collection of 11 championship rings in just 13 years, an achievement that remains unparalleled in North American team sports.

Bill Russell's shot-blocking prowess is another aspect that warrants attention. While blocked shots were not officially recorded during his era, Harvey Pollack and other statisticians made informal tallies. There is compelling evidence to suggest that both Russell and Wilt Chamberlain routinely blocked between 8 to 10 shots per game, which is a staggering number.

His indelible impact on winning, his leadership, and his all-around skills make a powerful case for Bill Russell as one of, if not the greatest basketball player of all time. It is imperative that current and future generations of basketball fans acknowledge and appreciate the enormity of his contributions to the sport.

[hold this L]

Yep. I obviously wasn't alive to watch Bill in his prime, but the stories you read throughout the years about what kind of competitor he was, it speaks volumes what he was able to do at that time.

Wilt was all about stats. Russell was all about winning.

Wilt is a stat padding loser. Dude is the all time great with the smallest win % defferential of when he plays vs when he doesn't. Also has some of the biggest stat drop offs RS > PS.

[Duffy Pratt]

Ditto.

Bill Russell is frequently subjected to undue criticism, undervaluation, or outright neglect in discussions about basketball greats. Although he retired over half a century ago, which predates the birth of a majority of NBA enthusiasts, it is essential to recognize the wealth of information available about him, including video footage, statistics, and testimonials from teammates and adversaries.

Far from being just an outstanding rebounder and defender, Russell was a double-digit scorer and an elite passer. Over the course of 20 years in organized basketball, encompassing high school, college, the Olympics, and the NBA, his teams consistently emerged as champions.

In high school, he led McClymonds to two California State basketball titles. At the University of San Francisco, he was instrumental in a 55-game winning streak, which included two NCAA championships. He didn’t stop there. He went on to captain the USA basketball team to a glorious victory, clinching the gold medal at the 1956 Olympic Games in Melbourne, Australia.

Upon joining the NBA, Russell's impact was immediately felt as he steered the Boston Celtics to their first title in 1957 during his rookie season. Furthermore, he broke new ground by becoming the NBA's first player-coach, a role in which he added two more championships to his name. When he retired, he had amassed an awe-inspiring collection of 11 championship rings in just 13 years, an achievement that remains unparalleled in North American team sports.

Bill Russell's shot-blocking prowess is another aspect that warrants attention. While blocked shots were not officially recorded during his era, Harvey Pollack and other statisticians made informal tallies. There is compelling evidence to suggest that both Russell and Wilt Chamberlain routinely blocked between 8 to 10 shots per game, which is a staggering number.

His indelible impact on winning, his leadership, and his all-around skills make a powerful case for Bill Russell as one of, if not the greatest basketball player of all time. It is imperative that current and future generations of basketball fans acknowledge and appreciate the enormity of his contributions to the sport.


Agree with all this, except one minor point. Dave Debusschere was player coach for the Pistons from 64-67, before Russell. Russell was not the first, but the only one ever to lead his team to a championship as both player and coach.

[kawhileonard2]

^ That said, Lebron did carry his teams.

He’s the exception.

Wade won finals mvp, Shaq won 3 finals mvp, Westbrook won league mvp, Ben Wallace won 4 DPOY, Dwight Howard won 3 DPOY and beat Lebron without HCA, Melo won a scoring title. Tim Duncan won 5 titles, 2 league mvp's, 3 finals mvp's, Iverson won league mvp and despite that Lebron won bronze medals and lost with HCA and only has 4 titles while Curry only played with Durant 3 years, Klay, Draymond.

[RRR3]

Wilt is a stat padding loser. Dude is the all time great with the smallest win % defferential of when he plays vs when he doesn't. Also has some of the biggest stat drop offs RS > PS.
Where did you get this info? Just curious.

[Stephonit]

Where did you get this info? Just curious.

Maybe here:

https://youtu.be/4zxq70PjnC8?t=577