Hot Take: George Mikan would be a superstar and HOFer in today's era

[Im Still Ballin]

Red Auerbach seemed to think so:

https://i.ibb.co/9vsxvJH/Rfd6POO.png

Bill Russell spoke very highly of him too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiH9ed48e2U&ab_channel=WiltChamberlainArchive

He was extremely big, more athletic than you'd think or have been told, and very skilled. With all the modern advantages I could see him as something of a mix between Duncan, McHale, and Jokic. Those advantages include not only diet, supplementation, and strength and conditioning but also improved healthcare, shoes/technology, transportation, and playing conditions.

The balls back then were not standardized and consistent. Bob Cousy mentioned how they were routinely lopsided and not completely round. The grip was much worse too. The arenas were often freezing cold and the rims, backboard, and courts sucked ass.

And that's not even mentioning the game was in its infancy. I don't hold odd/poor technique against the players from an older era. The playing conditions were drastically different as aforementioned and they had no frame of reference, no body of work to learn and be inspired from. It's the same thing regarding movies and music.

When I assess players from bygone eras, I look at their natural qualities and what they could potentially do given what they did show. Even if what they did show was limited, which is understandable given how play style is governed by the rules of the time and the playing conditions.

I like to focus on three things that all influence each other:

- Anthropometry (how tall, long, and big were they?)
- Athleticism (how did they move?)
- Skill (how technically proficient were they given the circumstances?)

And when I consider these qualities, Mikan passes the test. He wouldn't be "the guy" like he was back then, but he'd be one of the greats of any era. Interested to see any rebuttals.

Anthropometry

People don't realize just how big of a human he was. 6'9" barefoot, but had one of the longest wingspans in NBA history. Seriously, his arms and hands were comically long and his shoulders were as wide as a doorway. I've estimated his wingspan to be somewhere between 7'8" to 7'10" and his standing reach around 9'4" to 9'6".

Just look how long his arms are:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-fQx4ws5dVkAJo5vdbK-hyRxZFMNj5KQusQ&usqp=CAU

https://i.ibb.co/gPmRvR4/7p9yhi.gif

https://i.ibb.co/TmBNWND/RCos-Og-A-d.webp

Legitimate Kevin McHale length. Beejay Anya length (6'8" barefoot height with a 7'9" wingspan).

And that's not even mentioning his huge frame. He was 245 pounds as a rookie and 260-270 pounds in his prime. Bill Russell said he was 280 pounds when he met him. We also have to consider that this is all without modern weight training and supplementation. Bob Pettit said he played at 215 pounds but would be 265 if he played in the '80s. This was in a Sports Illustrated article from like 1987.

He's got one of the largest, broadest frames for a sub-seven footer. He'd be 280-300 in today's game. Similar to Jokic but with more leanness, muscle tone, and separation.

[Im Still Ballin]

Athleticism

The biggest critique of Mikan was that he was slow and couldn't play in the shot-clock era. Even though he was still well above average efficiency after the change was made. He had like a +10 rTS% in his last championship playoff run which was only three seasons before Bill Russell's first.

So how athletic was he? We have to remember athleticism is far more than just your vertical jump and forty-yard dash. Like Jokic, Mikan was very agile, extremely strong, and had great coordination, hand-eye coordination, and balance. He had that unique ability to maintain his coordination and balance through physical contact.

He didn't jump high but he was a quick jumper for his size. Jumping quickly is often more important than jumping high, especially for big men.

His weaknesses were his speed and jumping ability. But I do think he was more explosive than Jokic. Somewhere between him and Duncan.

He experienced a lot of injuries during his playing career so he inevitably slowed down toward the end. Like Jokic he wasn't a "natural" athlete. He trained with boxers and dancers to acclimate to his huge body.

Here are some clips that display his athleticism - what he was capable of:

Defending a smaller player out on the perimeter:

https://i.ibb.co/G9gSG4w/7p9y1q.gif

Closing out on a shooter, blocking his shot, tipping the ball, and gaining possession:

https://i.ibb.co/BGfhnMK/7patvk.gif

Securing a defensive rebound and leading the break:

https://i.ibb.co/ngDwQYg/7pes63.gif

For what it's worth, here's what CavsFTW thinks of Mikan. He's watched more footage than anybody. He said what was written in the articles and newspapers didn't accurately reflect the athlete he was.



I'd be happy to post some newspaper clips after I'm off of work but Mikan was not 6-10 and change barefoot, he was 6-9 barefoot - I've got multiple articles from multiple years that say he's 6-9 without his sneakers on. Dwight Howard's height, so likely he'd list 6-10 still, or possibly 6-11 if his arms were long enough to the degree that he "plays bigger" (no wingspan figure is ever given though newspapers do mention he has "long arms" and to my eyes, he also looks very long-limbed). So this 6-9 height doesn't reduce how well I think he'd do, I think he had great mobility (horizontally not vertically), and looked absolutely immune to heavy contact and mean as hell when he played. The vibe Shaq gave as far as aggression goes. He worked HARD to become coordinated too. Newspaper articles just like the one that was posted that called him a lumberer are flat out wrong, and are so wrong it irritates me how an article written that close to his career got him pegged so wrong. He was everything BUT a lumberer AFTER he worked his ass off in college strictly to correct the fact that at the high school level he started out as a typical slow and clumsy big man who's ability was questionable. THAT's the story of Mikan. The lumberer that ESCAPED being stuck that way.

Young Mikan was cut from his high school team at one point, and overlooked by many due to his slow uncoordinated movements. He's given a chance at DePaul then he worked out with boxers, dancers, developed all sorts of unorthodox routines to build his strength, quickness and coordination and it all WORKED. To the point that when the Lakers played the globetrotters, the globetrotters, the most athletic team of the 1950's by FAR, were fine dealing with everyone else on the Lakers team from a physical standpoint but were stunned at how such a big man like Mikan could move so quickly and ably. He was as quick and mobile as players FAR smaller than him, yet as strong if not stronger than any other 6-9 to 7 footer that was fielded against him and the few match ups that may have ever come close in strength simply could not keep up with George's mobility.

Look at his footage:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGYKyRmX4q4

He's a better ball handler and more mobile with a live dribble than Wilt Chamberlain, who came after him. Hell, he's a better ball handler than most big bodied centers today despite today's lack of ball handling restrictions! He'd be bringing the ball up like DeMarcus Cousins if he played with modern rules. DeMarcus is actually not a bad comparison to Mikan, physically, assuming Mikan would have access to modern weight training. Which is probably the one thing he DIDN'T do in his era to build his body considering the stigma against it with respect to shooting touch. Mikan was 245-265 without lifting weights, he was as high as 270. This is big, really big, for a body that hasn't even begun adding muscle mass with a weight set. Mikan looks wide as a brick wall out there which is a great body type to play that position. One other thing about Mikan to bolster what I mentioned about his work ethic: look at how abidextrous he is shooting around the basket. Left handed or right handed, of any shot type. Mikan was fundamentally disciplined and worked his but off when he wasn't playing games to become that way, and maintain being that way. Mikan's got all the ingredients to do well regardless of when he's playing in my humble opinion. You can't teach work ethic, and you can't teach that body type. He can't jump high. That's about it. But who cares, a lot of big heavy guys can't jump.

I'll close my post by citing Red Aurbach, when he was asked long after Mikan had retired by similar writers to the ones that mislabeled Mikan as a lumberer. Aurbach didn't seem interested to engage in specifics but he told these writers seeking reasons to fault the ability of Mikan: "Mikan would be stick out, any time." Aurbach is a pretty good judge of talent. I think the article was written in the 1970's or 80's. So into the 1970's or 1980's, the Jabbar era, Aurbach didn't seem to buy that idea that Mikan wouldn't be in the league, but rather felt he'd still be a stand out player.


Skill

Skill is the hardest of the three to analyze because of the infancy of the game and the rules at the time and the subpar playing conditions. The only thing we can comfortably say is that he's a strong free-throw shooter. 78% on large volume with the under arm technique.

So we have to look closely and search for things that infer value in the modern game. Like how soft his touch was, if he ever displayed shooting range, and how good his fundamentals were.

From what I've seen, here's my assessment:

- Powerful, physical post player that goes through people, not above or around
- Has a soft touch
- Ambidextrous; uses both hands
- Great passer, particularly to cutters and in the dribble handoff/give and ago actions
- Has shooting range (limited footage)
- Good defensive instincts and timing
- Strong ball handler
- Tenacious rebounder

I could see him being a DHO playmaking hub like Sabonis/Noah/Plumlee. His post-up game would resemble something like Jokic and Duncan. His physicality and size would draw a lot of fouls; similar to Timmy.

I think he'd be a better defender than Jokic due to his superior standing reach and wingspan, as well as being slightly more explosive. Maybe like a more disciplined and well-conditioned DeMarcus Cousins with way better defensive instincts.

The biggest question mark would be his shooting. Would he have range? I think so, but I can understand if others disagree. Hard to know from the footage. There are some clips of him doing Dirk-like fadeaways. Check out these shots:

https://i.ibb.co/nDBd9Yt/7pet5b.gif

[1987_Lakers]

Thread seems familiar. :eek:

[RRR3]

Mikan fell off hard when they widened the lane.

[Im Still Ballin]

Here are some more photos of his extraordinary length:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wcS4DNO2S5o/maxresdefault.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pBVfw0oMdow/UmXW1G9HNLI/AAAAAAAAAE4/31LFmzKLfCc/s1600/bobkunyard_display_image.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQv72nSkkGi_vyW1oKAW5-DYlYm94rVphK8a-kLFRnJ6cq4fPnSvGl13DQAOMhnefdHwOg&usqp=CAU

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTObHlq0cAcPnUqRywhOgzfAttOjoBll Z2KKJ_lG4NIMMbZ89XO0jLc7T3Er481nOG_tZk&usqp=CAU

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/b7/c8/8c/b7c88c9ba56417183d63a97ada779865.jpg

[Im Still Ballin]

Mikan fell off hard when they widened the lane.

The lane was widened in 1951/52 season; here are Mikan's rTS% numbers from the following years:

1952: +2.1
1953: +3.5
1954: +2.2

He also improved his efficiency in the playoffs. He had a +10.1 rTS% in his last championship run, which was two seasons before Bob Pettit came into the league and three for Bill Russell.

It's hard to make definitive statements without significant game footage, which we don't really have. And, as CavsFTW has shown, the newspaper articles weren't very accurate.

Shooting percentages went up from the '40s and '50s into the '60s. Mikan's backup center was shooting much higher percentages in the '60s.

[RRR3]

Mikan from 49-51: 28.0 PPG on 49.8 TS%
Mikan from 52-54: 20.7 PPG on 46.8 TS%


Scoring dropped off massively as did his efficiency. You are right that his efficiency was above league average even in the down years but much less so than before. His efficiency was superb relative to league average from 49-51 but merely good after that.


Idk, I don't think he's some Jokic level talent if he needed different rules to be that level of player.

[iamgine]

Red Auerbach seemed to think so:

https://i.ibb.co/9vsxvJH/Rfd6POO.png

How do we get from "stickout" to "superstar and HOFer"

[Im Still Ballin]

How do we get from "stickout" to "superstar and HOFer"

Read the entire text; your comprehension is off. The paragraph is about star players. Auerbach - who saw all the best players from the '40s, '50s, '60s, and '70s - gives his opinion on Mikan and seal of approval. Certified!

Arguing what "stickout" means is just semantics. We know what he meant. That doesn't mean he'd be the only guy he was back then. Just that he'd be a star in any era.

[iamgine]

Read the entire text; your comprehension is off. The paragraph is about star players. Auerbach - who saw all the best players from the '40s, '50s, '60s, and '70s - gives his opinion on Mikan and seal of approval. Certified!

Arguing what "stickout" means is just semantics. We know what he meant. That doesn't mean he'd be the only guy he was back then. Just that he'd be a star in any era.

lol is it possible he's just giving props to a pioneer. :lol

[post]

i have no idea what mikan would be today

dude played before my dad was even born

all i can say is if you judge him based on what he did when he played

he could be a top 10 player ever in some universe

in this one people knock him down a few dozen spots or whatever

[Im Still Ballin]

lol is it possible he's just giving props to a pioneer. :lol

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe go... nevermind!

At the end of the day, his last championship was only three seasons before Bill Russell showed up. Two seasons before Pettit. In fact, old man Mikan may have outplayed Petitt in the 1956 playoffs when he came back. No game footage but he outscored him and shot a higher shooting percentage I believe.

Careers overlapping is always a good way to look at players from bygone eras.

Mikan overlapped with Pettit.
Pettit played in the same era as Russell and Chamberlain.
Chamberlain overlapped with Kareem.
Kareem overlapped with Hakeem.
Hakeem overlapped with Duncan.
Duncan overlapped with Jokic.

Mikan outscored Pettit. Nobody defended Kareem better than Chamberlain and Thurmond. Kareem dropped some huge scoring numbers on Hakeem. Hakeem looked better in one-on-one possessions with Duncan. Duncan probably blocked Rookie Jokic at some point in 2015-2016.

History is beautiful.

[iamgine]

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe go... nevermind!

At the end of the day, his last championship was only three seasons before Bill Russell showed up. Two seasons before Pettit. In fact, old man Mikan may have outplayed Petitt in the 1956 playoffs when he came back. No game footage but he outscored him and shot a higher shooting percentage I believe.

Careers overlapping is always a good way to look at players from bygone eras.

Mikan overlapped with Pettit.
Pettit played in the same era as Russell and Chamberlain.
Chamberlain overlapped with Kareem.
Kareem overlapped with Hakeem.
Hakeem overlapped with Duncan.
Duncan overlapped with Jokic.

Mikan outscored Pettit. Nobody defended Kareem better than Chamberlain and Thurmond. Kareem dropped some huge scoring numbers on Hakeem. Hakeem looked better in one-on-one possessions with Duncan. Duncan probably blocked Rookie Jokic at some point in 2015-2016.

History is beautiful.

lol that's a terrible way.

Mikan was outscored by many no name role playing guys in that playoff. I guess 1950s no name role playing guys will be a star too. :lol

[ILLsmak]

Mikan was good. Talent is talent like you said. I’m already here so I got a post ha. But when you said he was pushing break look at how crisp that pass was. I have a theory and it may be the problem with old skool v new. I think that their physical limitations expanded their mind, that’s why people when they got up high they would do a dumb dunk. If you also consider that this working out / nutrition takes time as well, it’s easy to see the disconnect. Guys were practicing to overcome now they are over the rim like hmm what shud I do. And that goes for every facet of game.

I made a Mikan joke cuz he can’t get props as abl or whatever into nba but he did a lot of winning and did work. People are like deandre would eat his lunch. He’d catch some blocks I’m sure but dude would ultimately school him. That is if you take Mikan prime n just tell him to take these vitamins haha intravenous, he would be able to figure out the game fairly quickly. Dudes think he’d be trying to do a sweeping Hook every time lol.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

Here's a summary of the injuries he experienced while playing:


Mikan sustained various injuries during his career including fractures of both legs, his left arch, right foot, nose, right wrist, thumb and three fingers, plus 166 stitches.

[Im Still Ballin]

A great comment summarizing how the game was played in the '40s and '50s:


The rules didn't really benefit offensive players at all. You couldn't dislodge guys, your steps had to be very precise, no dribbling unless your hand is parallel to the floor. The main strategy was to get the ball up court as quickly as possible and take the first available shot and then fight for rebounds.

Then in the half court you try to work it inside to your biggest guy, but again, you couldn't back anybody down really, so you settled for a contested hook shot.

A lot of those early years the meta was to get a lead and then play keep away.

An explanation from CavsFTW/The Wilt Chamberlain Archive about weird shooting techniques:




dude was a physical beast and you're an incredible archiver

but holy COW there were some bad shooting forms back then... they'd throw it up like they're selling a distressed foul on a close layup but they'd do that no matter where on the court they are lmao

There are many (now virtually extinct) shooting forms back then and I've tried to learn to identify them all. You watch enough games of that era and you actually can see that what at first appears erratic (to us) is usually a repeated process over and over from the same players and you can tell these guys drilled and practiced to shoot that way.

For example in this particular time period, it wasn't yet fully ironed out what the "best" way to shoot from outside was because you had 2 superstars come out of the college ranks with deadly outside shots but one shot jump-shots and the other shot 1-hand push shots... plus you had the old tried and true traditional way of shooting so you have the entire league shooting a hodge podge of 2-hand set shots, 1-hand push shots, and jump-shots.

We all know which one prevailed in the end but at that time it was all still a toss up with no clear example of one method being better than the other. I think the shot you are mostly looking at is the sweeping hooks shot by driving perimeter players. We almost never see that shot today, but back then, for whatever reasons (perhaps difficult to block?), it was very popular.

[Im Still Ballin]

Some more woke posts:




And? He only played 10 years before Wilt and Russell? Shall we discredit them too?

10? He literally retired the year before Russell got there. Russell literally played the majority of his playoff games in that year against the same team Mikan had had his playoff numbers against the year before. Here was their playoff offensive efficiency stats:

Russell: 13.9 points on 14.8 FGA [39.8% TS]

Mikan: 12.0 points on 11.7 FGA [44.2% TS]

And that was when Russell had an MVP as PG while Mikan didn't have a teammate in top 8 in MVP voting. There's only one reason that you'd make the cutoff in 1956 and not 1949 when the merger to create the NBA happened and that's specifically to exclude Mikan.


I've gotten shit for this before. But I'll say it again.

There is no logical reason to cut off between those two. There's nothing that happened in 1956 to warrant any real reason for a cut off. There are perfectly good cut off dates too, like 1949, the year the BAA and NBL merged to form the NBA just a few years before, or 1979, commonly seen as the start of the modern NBA. But 1956 makes no sense.

To me, the real reason there's such a desire to draw the line there is that a lot of people are invested in Russell being a legitimate GOAT candidate, and don't want to answer questions like why Russell's playoff offensive efficiency stats when he came into the league were worse than Mikan's in the season before where people claim he was "washed" or why Russell's Celtics were no more dominant against Pettit's Hawks in the 50's than Mikan was in that same supposedly "washed" 55-56 season despite Russell having come to a 16-8 team led by a legendary MVP point guard and Mikan coming to a 14-21 team without any players in the top 8 in MVP voting.

[ILLsmak]

I hope you’re not using ai haha cuz ima throw one.

56 no, but Wilt 59. Can’t be 100 but I’m betting Bill beat (won with him in league) Wilt more times than Mikan won. Wilt = capable 50+ ppg. That’s an equalizer. Rule changes. Wilt would eat Mikan lunch. Mikan probably had a desk job haha. That’s diff but I remember putting Mikan on a top ten list like what y’all gonna say b real. Respect greatness. But the gap then was diff cuz nothing magically did happen. Wilt hitting 400-500 bench late career (ped?) but in 60 he was just working with same stuff off natural ability. 50 ppg.

Mikan wasn’t ready, but Bill prol knows that he could get to wilt like haha u can’t shoot tho. He could alil but compared to inside haha. Mikan—> Wilt is the evolution. Bill played cross era and faced both? So he vetted. Wilt to Mikan is the point athleticism and natural talent beat raw skill.

-Smak

[Im so nba'd out]

If Tyler zeller can play in this league any of them dudes from the 50’s could thrive in this league….


I seen Pat connaughton start on a championship team so all that bs about “bob cousey” couldn’t play in this league is out the window now.

[Im Still Ballin]

If Tyler zeller can play in this league any of them dudes from the 50’s could thrive in this league….


I seen Pat connaughton start on a championship team so all that bs about “bob cousey” couldn’t play in this league is out the window now.

I acknowledge your post and respect your opinion. Thanks for the contribution.

[John8204]

People often say Mikan wouldn't have been great in today's NBA. Three key points that are never discussed with Mikan. First being he had to shoot every shot, they didn't allow/embrace dunks back then. So when you look at his hightlights you'll notice he had a very soft touch or constantly go for layups with both of his hands. In today's NBA he would be able to use his physicality more than in the 50's. He was one of the most efficient shooters of his era...that number would have increased.

The second factor people don't recognize about Mikan is he was the face of the league. He wasn't just the champion and the best player he would also have to spend his days in season promoting the league, doing interviews and selling the sport. It is a unique position no other player in NBA history had to do. He was constantly playing injured (he later lost his leg) but he wasn't able to take time off and recover to extend his career.

Economics, even though he was the highest pair player in the sport (and someone who was constantly brought back) he had to leave the sport and get a real job. That real job focused on law school, ran for congress and ended up ABA commissioner.

[Im Still Ballin]

People often say Mikan wouldn't have been great in today's NBA. Three key points that are never discussed with Mikan. First being he had to shoot every shot, they didn't allow/embrace dunks back then. So when you look at his hightlights you'll notice he had a very soft touch or constantly go for layups with both of his hands. In today's NBA he would be able to use his physicality more than in the 50's. He was one of the most efficient shooters of his era...that number would have increased.

The second factor people don't recognize about Mikan is he was the face of the league. He wasn't just the champion and the best player he would also have to spend his days in season promoting the league, doing interviews and selling the sport. It is a unique position no other player in NBA history had to do. He was constantly playing injured (he later lost his leg) but he wasn't able to take time off and recover to extend his career.

Economics, even though he was the highest pair player in the sport (and someone who was constantly brought back) he had to leave the sport and get a real job. That real job focused on law school, ran for congress and ended up ABA commissioner.

Dropping gold nuggets here bro.

:applause:

[HoopsNY]

I love this thread. It's a slap in the face to modern fans who can't contextualize anything.