I have to ask given recent events. Smart or Tony Allen?

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2306251645110336.jpeg


https://youtu.be/1yZNOOtPkm8

[Kblaze8855]

I fully understand that most of you would take Smart. Allen a better defender to me with Smart a better offensive player and by a greater margin. Hell the way history works Smart might be considered the better defender just for the DPOY.

Personally…I’m a Tony Allen guy. And for most of basketball history him not having a 3 pointer wouldn’t matter and I don’t tend to take a “If they played right now” perspective on all time comparisons(though I’m more open to it in this case considering they both played “modern” ball). Long story short Tony is gonna do more of what I want from their type and less things to personally annoy me. I do respect Smart but I don’t know if I can take the most vicious and over the top flopper over the Grindfather as my designated stopper.

Doesnt mean I think the Celtics last 2 seasons improve with Allen in his place just means I would struggle to swap those two guys out for my own reasons. Similar to my preferring Jimmy Butler to Harden like 4 years ago. I get you taking the other guy…I just don’t like the cut of his jib. Though jib wise Smart/Tony are closer than Harden Jimmy.

Both are probably cut from a cloth I value. Good winning cloth. But got damn….



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LightheartedAdventurousBongo-size_restricted.gif

[Kblaze8855]

Watching some of the clips that inspired things like this….




https://youtu.be/KeWyBEuc0Yk



He might have been KDs toughest defender as well as Kobes though I don’t know if he would say so.

And for the record KD had a good game after that segment.

[Kblaze8855]

Having looked into it he would say so…just not at the time. At the time it was



“He’s good,” Durant said. “He’s good at dodging screens. He’s physical. But everybody plays the same way with me.”Later in his six-minute interview session, Durant was asked why he doesn’t post up more. His response fell somewhere between agitated and defensive.

“Being a taller guy, when these shorter guys guard you, it’s a little tougher because they’re lower to the ground,” Durant said. “They’re quicker. But nobody’s just going to let me sit in the post. They’re going to put two guys on me, one on the backside and one sitting in my lap. So I just got to move around more.”
“It’s not like I’m just getting totally locked down,” he continued.

“But he’s making it tough. It’s the playoffs. Every possession’s going to be tough no matter who we’re playing. But it’s not like I’m just non-existent. I don’t know what you guys have been watching. But he’s making me work, just like everybody else would.”


But many years later when asked who his toughest defender was







“It was Tony Allen. He had me thinking about my offense differently.” KD admitted.

My game was always free-flowing, I’m out there just playing. Ball comes to me. I'm gonna shoot it, get in the lane, I'm gonna go. He (Allen) was cutting s*** off, denying the ball from me, got into my pocket. So I needed to find different setups, I started working on preparation before I catch the ball, just small parts of the game, I felt like he was teaching me that little s***.”

“He was so f****** good, he was a master at playing defense, you don’t understand how great he was at playing defense.” Durant concluded.



And when asked on tv


https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/25972039

Tony Allen by far the greatest defender. Though he of course pushed back on the “shutting down” part which is fair.



So there’s that.

Guys aren’t gonna give you that credit when they have to play you again the next night. Can’t let them know they’re ****ing with your game. And now…I’ll leave you alone and have what I suspect will be a shitty hotel breakfast.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Tony Allen should have been a star. If he never started tearing ACL he would have been more athletic and quicker and had a different career. Before injury he was like Wade but with an inferior handle. Could have been allstar if he had some luck and the work ethic that kept him in the league with diminished athleticism instead was applied to improving his game with great athleticism.

But he had a noteworthy career nonetheless so it's nothing to cry about.

Smart right now and for the last few years has been better because he managed to become a point guard. Tony Allen didn't completely lack a position but it's hard to be an SG roleplayer without range. I'm not sure who is greater defensively and Allen would have been better if the ACL never tore

[DMAVS41]

Tony Allen was clearly a better defender in my opinion.

His offense was worse than Smart's, but ultimately to what degree on quality teams...I really don't know. It will be interesting to see how Smart plays on the Grizzlies. Just my take...I think I'd rather have Tony Allen...I'm not sure my team is that much better off with Smart's offense considering he takes a lot of 3's and only makes slightly over 30%...yes, Smart can run the point and make plays a bit for others, but again, I'm not sure that is a major benefit to quality teams as he's fine, but nothing special in that area...and I don't think anyone would deny that Allen's defense was more impactful.

Smart probably helps average teams more...contending teams though...I'd prefer Allen in most situations I think.

[Kblaze8855]

I'm not sure who is greater defensively .


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/JaggedGlassBergerpicard-size_restricted.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

Allen was legitimately a GOAT tier perimeter defender, he was putting the clamps on PG’s like Curry to 7 footers like KD, Smart is frankly not on his level.

Offensively though, it’s not even close. While far from some star on that end of the floor, Smart can contribute on the offensive end, while Allen was a legitimately bad offensive player.

So I think Smart provides more value, esp in todays game, but Allen defensively can be compared to any perimeter player, he was truly that great, albeit in limited minutes and having zero offensive responsibilities.

[tpols]

Smart is more talented but flops a lot. Tony Allen was the real deal, no flopping. He reminds me of young bucks verse on this song. @3:00


https://youtu.be/I2l2FR5uA1A

[Kblaze8855]

Allen was legitimately a GOAT tier perimeter defender, he was putting the clamps on PG’s like Curry to 7 footers like KD, Smart is frankly not on his level.

Offensively though, it’s not even close. While far from some star on that end of the floor, Smart can contribute on the offensive end, while Allen was a legitimately bad offensive player.

So I think Smart provides more value, esp in todays game, but Allen defensively can be compared to any perimeter player, he was truly that great, albeit in limited minutes and having zero offensive responsibilities.


About that last bit….

I was surprised to see Tony Allen actually scores more than Smart per minute.

[Kblaze8855]

Smart is more talented but flops a lot. Tony Allen was the real deal, no flopping. He reminds me of young bucks verse on this song.


https://youtu.be/I2l2FR5uA1A


Tony Allen was DMX on Murdergram



https://youtu.be/cUqbL5dYI4A


Maybe Beanie Sigel on Barrel brothers



https://youtu.be/MH1zdwIFaKI


Young buck isn’t grimy enough.

[Chuckbe]

As-Salaam-Alaikum, alaikum salaam

[SouBeachTalents]

About that last bit….

I was surprised to see Tony Allen actually scores more than Smart per minute.
That’s actually an insane stat :lol I just checked their playoff history out of curiosity, Smart’s scored 20+ 21 times, Allen never did it once, while playing more games to boot.

[iamgine]

Would anyone take either of them over, say, a healthy D'angelo Russell given the same salary?

[tpols]

Tony Allen was DMX on Murdergram



https://youtu.be/cUqbL5dYI4A


Maybe Beanie Sigel on Barrel brothers



https://youtu.be/MH1zdwIFaKI


Young buck isn’t grimy enough.

True. This would have probably been a better choice from me.


https://youtu.be/uAeApFut7o0

Going against Tony Allen and Zbo must have been a trip. That's a goon squad right there. Prison ball.

[Real Men Wear Green]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/JaggedGlassBergerpicard-size_restricted.gif

I views it as the voters not being sure how to analyze how good the Celtics were defensively in that season (it was very much about Rob Williams) but he does have that DPoY award. Allen did great work man to man but Smart had been excellent there himself and had a lot of what I would call "clever" plays where he anticipates what someone else's man is trying to do and gets a steal or draws a charge (and yes, flops, go ahead and hate it but it works).

[1987_Lakers]

Michael Cooper has a DPOY award and Tim Duncan doesn't. Lets call them equal defenders because of it.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Michael Cooper has a DPOY award and Tim Duncan doesn't. Lets call them equal defenders because of it.

Anomalies can exist for any award. Doesn't mean the award is irrelevant.

[Kblaze8855]

I views it as the voters not being sure how to analyze how good the Celtics were defensively in that season (it was very much about Rob Williams) but he does have that DPoY award. Allen did great work man to man but Smart had been excellent there himself and had a lot of what I would call "clever" plays where he anticipates what someone else's man is trying to do and gets a steal or draws a charge (and yes, flops, go ahead and hate it but it works).


This worked


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HighlevelEquatorialBarasinga-size_restricted.gif



but I don’t feel I should have to respect it as good basketball playing. Some things are just cheating even if refs don’t acknowledge it. I will say I am more supportive of Smart than Harden approach wise though.

[SouBeachTalents]

Michael Cooper has a DPOY award and Tim Duncan doesn't. Let’s call them equal defenders because of it.
Yeah, just being real, the defensive voting is usually pretty fcked up. No DPOY’s for Duncan or Pippen, guys like Marion or Sheed never making a single All-Defensive Team, Kobe making 12 of them, including 9 First Teams.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah, just being real, the defensive voting is usually pretty fcked up. No DPOY’s for Duncan or Pippen, guys like Marion or Sheed never making a single All-Defensive Team, Kobe making 12 of them, including 9 First Teams.


2011 Kobe over Tony Allen was crazy to me. I remember we talked about it at the time and even Kobe fans were like “Allen better on D but Kobe has to play both ends” as if we would put Kidd over prime Nash on an all offense team because Kidd had to play elite defense too. People will grade on a curve but only going one way.

He should have been over Patrick Beverly in 2014 too I’d say. I assumed it was because he played only 55 games but Beverly did too. Tony was right back on the first team the next year. Shit is just weird. Lot of the time it feels like the reputation you get the previous seasons playoffs carry you to the next seasons awards.

[Real Men Wear Green]

This worked


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HighlevelEquatorialBarasinga-size_restricted.gif



but I don’t feel I should have to respect it as good basketball playing. Some things are just cheating even if refs don’t acknowledge it. I will say I am more supportive of Smart than Harden approach wise though.

Thing is these days most players exaggerate impact to get calls. Smart flops no doubt anger fans of opposing teams but most of the time they have guys on their team trying to do the same thing but just aren't as good at it.

A difference with Harden is the impact of his flopping and role abuse. Not only does he get completely unreserved free throw but he changes the defenders spurious because they are scared of being called for fake could. That warps y he game when it's being done by a guy that is handling the ball all the time. I won't act like smarts flops are more honorable but it's not the same in impact because Harden is getting hands in foul trouble and had had nights where he got his team a lot of points they should not have had.

[BarberSchool]

Allen and it’s not close.

Smart too much of a liar with all those flops.

And let’s not act like Smart is some great shooter.
Dude has tons of playoff games where he goes 0-5, 0-6 3fg

[ArbitraryWater]

Allen for defense but Smart overall