How comfortable are you acknowledging that your bias influences your opinions?

[Kblaze8855]

For example….


Do you find it odd how consistently overrated your favorite players teammates are?

And how consistently underrated you find the teammates of stars you don’t care for?

The biggest Jordan fans spend all day on here hating on his teammates. The biggest Steph fans always hating on his teammates. The biggest LeBron fans are doing the same thing. Kobe fans love hating on Pau. Embiid fans the same way. Even gets to relative nobodies like Rudy Gobert.

Do you think that’s a simple as a reasonable and informed person taking a look at the situation and coming up with a fair evaluation?

Of course not. You know why they do it even if you choose not to acknowledge that it’s also why you do it. The agendas are so ingrained I’ve posted with some of you for years and I don’t think I know what you genuinely think about anything.

We talk to each other all day on here, and sometimes it seems people only have the opinion that benefits their larger purpose here. There’s just no way to get stand alone thoughts because so many of you are tied up in eternal arguments in other topics.

I feel sometimes like I have to get so far outside the box of regular NBA conversation just to see what someone thinks for real because it’s hard to link it back to some ongoing discussion elsewhere they have allegiance to and the preset opinions that come with it.

When you take a step back and think about it, do you honestly believe everything you think just happens to lineup with the agenda one would expect you to push based on who you seem to be a fan off?

Is that even a question you can answer? If your agenda changes your genuine perception? If you were trolling us…would you know it for sure?

Do you play the character so long it just becomes what you really are?

Scott Hall played a Cuban American wrestler Razor Ramon for like three years and got so used to it he talked with a bad Cuban accent and kept a toothpick in his mouth till the day he died.


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2306300114550420.jpeg


Is that what is happening with some of you? The character becomes who you really are?

Do you believe you would hold roughly the same opinions of players if you didn’t have their fans to interact with?

If not…

How much does your disdain change what you actually think?

Do you know what do you actually think? Do you tell us when we ask?


Have you let Razor Ramon absorb your Scott Hall?

[highwhey]

what were you thinking when you made that rude and uncalled for comment OP? it sounded like the henny was talking, were you drunk?

[Kblaze8855]

what were you thinking when you made that rude and uncalled for comment OP? it sounded like the henny was talking, were you drunk?

I don’t know exactly which one you mean. My razor Ramon definitely absorbed my Scott Hall, many years ago, when I made a conscious effort to stop being a coward in social situations. I will say some completely outrageous shit at fairly inappropriate times, and it’s always worked out for me. You’ll have to be more specific. My years of being fraud confidence asshole makes it blur together.

[Axe]

Many severe lebron haters here are retarded morons who can't stop thinking of him all-day. They also overrate some of his current teammates just to push a stupid narrative that his team was stacked the past few seasons.

[highwhey]

you know which one, but i'm not going to make a big fuzz about any longer. i'll chalk it up to henny talk. i've said my fair share of asshole things. like i just said chewing's lawsuit as an individual would count as a class action lawsuit because he's extremely obese. i even hate to repeat that because it's not a classy thing to point out someone else's obesity, but i just wanted to use the most recent example of me saying something that wasn't nice.

[Kblaze8855]

you know which one, but i'm not going to make a big fuzz about any longer. i'll chalk it up to henny talk. i've said my fair share of asshole things. like i just said chewing's lawsuit as an individual would count as a class action lawsuit because he's extremely obese. i even hate to repeat that because it's not a classy thing to point out someone else's obesity, but i just wanted to use the most recent example of me saying something that wasn't nice.


You’re actually right because I remembered exactly what it was about halfway through my explanation about why I didn’t remember it. But I was too far down the rabbit hole at that point.

that said, I’m pretty OK with having said it. There are a few things in life I wish I could go back and undo even if they got a laugh because I realized that’s just not how you talk to people. Very few of them online though. There was one guy though. Coincidentally also a suns fan. I said something wild to him playing NBA 2K in a group chat with a bunch of other people from here. He was cool with it at the time, but later straight up told me he thought I was a bully, which is both a weird thing to hear from one adult to another and one of the few insults I’ve ever received from a person online that actually stuck with me.

I didn’t realize he couldn’t tell I didn’t mean it, and that I actually liked him. And years later stalker of all people was on here talking about mentally ill people who use the Internet as an escape and don’t want to be treated online the way they get treated in life and that got to me as well. I’m sure you remember me telling you about the girl who posted here years ago who committed suicide as well not that I had any part in her particular torment here and other places.

You though? I’ll believe otherwise, if you tell me, but I’ve never genuinely thought you took any of this serious. You didn’t strike me as the type I would have to hold my tongue when speaking to. And believe me, there are people here I just have to not speak to at all for just that reason.

you’re on my shortlist of people I’ve seen enough actual humanity from that I talk to you like I talk to regular people so I might say anything to you. I don’t think there are 10 of you at the moment. I will say Fultz is another one. That guy is still Scott Hall he just plays Razor. I don’t feel the need to soften my tone to such people.

All that said, if youre soft, say you’re soft and I’ll treat you soft from now on.

[BigShotBob]

I'm a football player/fan first and a basketball fan second, what made me fall in love with basketball and the NBA was the physicality of the Bad Boys and Isiah Thomas's warrior spirit. That's still my favorite run.

This era changed the rules to make it easier to score and they took the physicality out of the game and now it's hard to by into the product. It feels more and more like sports entertainment than a real game. They are marketing players who look prepubescent, weak, scrawny, like NSYNC back-up dancers. Skill has diminished from the bigs, lazy offenses that emphasizes 3pt shooting, too many guards/wings that don't even know how to make an entry pass or drive and react or make the defense move/shift. It's just not a good product anymore.

I watched an entire college game last night. 1982 UNC vs Houston Final Four on youtube is up for the world to see. Jordan, Sam Perkins, James Worthy, Clyde Drexler, Akeem Olajuwon, Rob Williams, it was a better game to watch than any game I witnessed in The Finals. More skill was on display, every basket was hard and a grind, there wasn't a shot clock but there was still a pace and a rhythm to the game and the schemes were more advanced than what you see now with Houston attempting to stop UNC's 4 corners by switching from Diamond to Man and back again using their speed/quickness to disrupt them and/or bait them into taking shots so they can't or don't sit on the ball. Way more strategy than what you see now and this is on a college level.

Hopefully the pendulum shifts back but it probably never will. That's what hurts. And I see it in football now too. I barely watch it anymore. It's not the same sport that I played at a high level in college and dedicated most of my life to.

[Kblaze8855]

I wouldn’t say fans who denigrate the current era are demonstrating bias induced insincerity but there is still natural bias, which I’m sure I have as well. I I don’t know how often it rises to the point where I don’t believe they believe what they’re saying. There are trolls like Chris Russo, who will acknowledge while talking on other mediums that he goes on TV and plays the character. And I’m sure people do it here and in “real” life as well. I don’t know if it gets to a point where they themselves might have trouble finding the line between what they actually believe and what they have to say for their agenda though.

A lot of people here are saying shit every day I feel like they have to know isn’t true to further these arguments, but in many cases its the kind of people who are themselves upset at what they would consider trolling. Makes it hard to be sure.

[highwhey]

You’re actually right because I remembered exactly what it was about halfway through my explanation about why I didn’t remember it. But I was too far down the rabbit hole at that point.

that said, I’m pretty OK with having said it. There are a few things in life I wish I could go back and undo even if they got a laugh because I realized that’s just not how you talk to people. Very few of them online though. There was one guy though. Coincidentally also a suns fan. I said something wild to him playing NBA 2K in a group chat with a bunch of other people from here. He was cool with it at the time, but later straight up told me he thought I was a bully, which is both a weird thing to hear from one adult to another and one of the few insults I’ve ever received from a person online that actually stuck with me.

I didn’t realize he couldn’t tell I didn’t mean it, and then I actually liked him. And years later stalker of all people was on here talking about mentally ill people who use the Internet as an escape and don’t want to be treated online the way they get treated in life and that got to me as well. I’m sure you remember me telling you about the girl who posted here years ago who committed suicide as well not that I had any part in her particular tournament here and other places.

You though? I’ll believe otherwise, if you tell me, but I’ve never genuinely thought you took any of this serious. You didn’t strike me as the type I would have to hold my tongue when speaking to. And believe me, there are people here I just have to not speak to at all for just that reason.

you’re on my shortlist of people I’ve seen enough actual humanity from that. I talk to you like I talk to regular people so I might say anything to you. I don’t think there are 10 of you at the moment. I will say Fultz is another one. That guy is still Scott Hall he just plays Razor. I don’t feel the need to soften my tone to such people.

All that said, if youre soft, say you’re soft and I’ll treat you soft from now on.

i'll take that as a compliment, thank you.

[bison]

This is what player Stan culture is. You Stan a player and immediately become a jealous, sneering and petty observer of the game. This could never be me. I am always team first and don’t feel any need other than to boost any player in a laker jersey. Player Stan culture has dumbed down basketball discourse over the years. It’s especially toxic but it always wasn’t that way

I think prior to the 90s, the basketball fan base was nearly all about the teams. And it mattered that your team represented the city or state you’re from. I think this was especially true up to the 80s lakers Celtics rivalry when the cities themselves were just as adversarial as the teams themselves. This ugly culture of biases and agendas against individuals as fans I think started to happen for a couple reasons:

1. Jordan. Dudes popularity was so off the charts that millions tuned into basketball just watch and cheer for him alone. The nba took note and started to promote superstars over teams. NBA still does this hyping up any superstar to be the next Jordan, brown, curry, whatever.

2. Growth of international market. Foreign fans typically don’t have a connection to the cities the teams represent. They are more likely to gravitate toward individual players they recognize rather than follow the lore and history of a particular city‘d franchise.

3. Social media. There is such unprecedented access to an individual players life and personality via social media that didn’t exist in the days of magic or mj. It’s become more easy for fans to form parasocial relationships with individual players that gives one an immediate dopamine hit, the kind of instant gratification that doesn’t exist when you’re a long time stan of a local long struggling team, for instance, whose loyalty you give goes unrewarded for such a long time.

[Kblaze8855]

I think prior to the 90s, the basketball fan base was nearly all about the teams. And it mattered that your team represented the city or state you’re from. I think this was especially true up to the 80s lakers Celtics rivalry when the cities themselves were just as adversarial as the teams themselves. This ugly culture of biases and agendas against individuals as fans I think started to happen for a couple reasons:


I can’t say I remember Celtic fans telling me how much Robert Parish sucked or the much more common Laker fans telling me how Worthy would be a bum without Magic. Now I’m sure such opinions existed because someone somewhere thinks everything…but it wasn’t common enough to be an expected part of the discussion.

Fans would be happy to brag about how good their entire team was, and how they were gonna beat your team. A lot of fans these days will flat out predict the other team is going to win because they are so unbelievably talented in order to discredit the other teams best player in advance. You have to position your best player as being likely to lose so if he does it doesn’t count and if he wins the other guy blew what should have been an easy win.

It’s one area where it feels you can’t even get an honest opinion. People want their favorite players team to look so bad they can’t even acknowledge they should win when they’re clearly favorites.

And it carries over even when players are moved to different teams. Still the ongoing argument about how good somebody is because they played with somebody four or five years ago.

Eventually there’s just a web of tainted opinions across the whole league and it feels pointless to solicit opinions about anyone.

[FilmyCogTurner]

I can’t say I remember Celtic fans telling me how much Robert Parish sucked or the much more common Laker fans telling me how Worthy would be a bum without Magic. Now I’m sure such opinions existed because someone somewhere thinks everything…but it wasn’t common enough to be an expected part of the discussion.

Fans would be happy to brag about how good their entire team was, and how they were gonna beat your team. A lot of fans these days will flat out predict the other team is going to win because they are so unbelievably talented in order to discredit the other teams best player in advance. You have to position your best player as being likely to lose so if he does it doesn’t count and if he wins the other guy blew what should have been an easy win.

It’s one area where it feels you can’t even get an honest opinion. People want their favorite players team to look so bad they can’t even acknowledge they should win when they’re clearly favorites.

And it carries over even when players are moved to different teams. Still the ongoing argument about how good somebody is because they played with somebody four or five years ago.

Eventually there’s just a web of tainted opinions across the whole league and it feels pointless to solicit opinions about anyone.

I would say a lot of the Pippen bashing is because he's a ****ing moron who needs psychiatric help.

Parish, Worthy and those like them so far to me all seem like reasonable people with reasonable opinions and with that you get softer outlooks when looking back.

[FultzNationRISE]

Im comfortable with the objectivity with which I discuss Lebron “King of the World, and a Big Sausage Too” James.

Deal with it.

[Jasper]

I think very clearly ... no bias here

[Wally450]

I try not to let my bias get in the way when discussing the Celtics. If anything I'm more of a doomer.

The funniest thing about this site is when a thread is started about how well a player is playing, this and that, then said player has a bad game, the thread is bumped and people are shitting on the guy for being terrible. (ie the Tatum Ingram debate) Some of it might be trolling, but there are people that believe what they're saying also.

[Kblaze8855]

I would say a lot of the Pippen bashing is because he's a ****ing moron who needs psychiatric help.

Parish, Worthy and those like them so far to me all seem like reasonable people with reasonable opinions and with that you get softer outlooks when looking back.


of all the people caught up in this bullshit I would say only Pippen and Kyrie have really made any kind of questionable statements one would expect backlash from. Klay Thompson seems like one of the most chill people in the NBA. Try making a Klay Thompson topic and see who shows up pro and anti. Or Pau. He never bothered anyone. Players teammates are seen as something to overcome so their negative qualities are overstated to make the star look better. For the hater…they’re the reason the star wins. So the positives have to be emphasized.

Im not sure anyone these days playing with a superstar can just get a fair look.

Pippen is a role player. At the same time he’s the only reason Jordan isn’t a loser. People talking shit about Pau for not winning playoff games when some of those teams look like they shouldn’t have won 25 games to begin with. At the same time people will tell you, Pau, who was top 10 or 15 at the time was actually better than Kobe who is top 10ish all time. Push back on the idea that Kyrie gets talk as one of the most skilled players in history when the people providing the pushback could make their own list and all the people on the list will put Kyrie on it with them. Draymond Green called useless specifically during a season he was the defensive player of the year and his teams primary play maker, and also shot 40% from three in the playoffs. Have people acting like the current Lakers are a super team on which Lebron should be the fourth option.

some of it seems too stupid to believe, but it comes from people who will in the same breath, complain about trolling.

If it’s all jokes, wouldn’t it at least switch up a little bit? Do the people who quote the same responses they see every day and put a bunch of laughing emojis under it actually sit there and laugh? Of course not. None of it is actually funny, so what are we doing? Once you eliminate any likelihood that these people are actually finding this funny you’re forced to ask…..is it just being stupid? Or does the bias run so deep they just become these people for real? Is it possible they don’t realize what they’re doing?

[SouBeachTalents]

I think my favorite take of all time is Chris Bosh was a superstar player. tpols will refer to him forever as an "All-NBA 3rd option" when he missed the All-NBA Team in 12 of his 13 seasons, including all 4 seasons LeBron was in Miami AND his last 3 seasons in Toronto. warriorfan literally argued, and I'm not making this up, that Bosh was a top 4 player in 2010 and better than Kobe :lol

I know you were in the Bosh is overrated camp before he became merely a pawn in an agenda, and I've seen people claim you feel that way because you're a Bron stan lol.

[iamgine]

Well yeah.

Problem is, we often don't realize what we're biased for.

That's why we should question our own opinions often.

Often it's the result of Dunning-Kruger effect.

[Kblaze8855]

That is another issue. No subject can stand on its own. Every statement you make is taken as support or opposition to entire lines of discussion that are unrelated because of these “teams”. It’s like politics. I’m comfortable with lowering taxes for everybody because I see how the government wastes the money. Because of that some liberals think I’m a Republican. At the same time a lot of my social views make Republicans think I’m a leftist.

People can’t just let you have a standalone opinion. Even showing proof I didn’t **** with Chris Bosh as far back as 2007 people will tell me it’s to support LeBron. Cant you not like Chris Bosh but respect Kyries game? Can’t I like Gasol and Kobe? Jordan and Pippen are my two favorite players of all time. It would never occur to me to put them in opposition. I can show you posts of me not being that impressed with Kevin love in Minnesota. Am I allowed to both think that and not have Lebron in my personal top five?

What does one have to do with the other?

But in sports talk as in politics, if you’re on one team, you’re on that team in all it looks to achieve.

is it a me problem because I usually try to see where the other side might be coming from so I don’t come down on the same side of any particular teams? Acting like losing in the finals is a bigger knock than getting knocked out early is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. I would also rather have Hakeem on my team than LeBron James. Why are those two things in opposition? I think the bulls were incredibly underrated as a top to bottom team when Jordan was winning. I also can’t envision a scenario where I would rather have LeBron than Jordan. One has nothing to do with the other.

But people don’t see it that way. Cant I be in favor of lowering taxes and maybe not destroying the environment?

[tpols]

If a guy can make the All NBA team while being on a mediocre or bad cast that's proof he's an All NBA talent in his own right. And not getting their due to pure circumstance.

Yes it is true we exaggerate due to who we like as basketball players. Nobody is perfect. Southbeach with Kyrie is probably the worst. He acts like he's a scrub when he was a number 1 overall pick, the brightest star and MVP in FIBA international competition, and went off with Wilt statlines and the biggest clutch shot in the Finals for his own favorite players greatest "win". And also acting like Love is a scrub when he was All NBA on the shitty twolves and a rebounding champion prior to Cleveland.



I think what OP is missing is that superstars do affect the players they play with either positively or negatively. Bosh and Love making All NBA teams prior to Miami and Cleveland and then never making them playing with LeBron is an indictment on their fit and chemistry. Everybody knows dray wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell being All NBA on those twolve or raptor teams. And that the winning spotlight playing on a dynasty and with a UMVP type player elevated his status. If you can't admit that you're lying to yourself.

Got guys acting like dray was better than Wade. Which sometimes he was but is that because he's the better talent or because one guy was in the perfect system to allow him to play well and the other guy was in a very suboptimal system by comparison?

A lot of you guys simply don't take fit and chemistry into account when analyzing superstars' helps talent.

[highwhey]

I think my favorite take of all time is Chris Bosh was a superstar player. tpols will refer to him forever as an "All-NBA 3rd option" when he missed the All-NBA Team in 12 of his 13 seasons, including all 4 seasons LeBron was in Miami AND his last 3 seasons in Toronto. warriorfan literally argued, and I'm not making this up, that Bosh was a top 4 player in 2010 and better than Kobe :lol

I know you were in the Bosh is overrated camp before he became merely a pawn in an agenda, and I've seen people claim you feel that way because you're a Bron stan lol.

:roll: hes been smokin crack for a long time

[tpols]

I don't think he ever argued that. He pulled up advanced metrics that LeBron fans used to say LeBron was the best and the same metrics had Bosh top 4 or 5 in the league in 2010.

He was a great player on Toronto. The team sucked though. Go look up his help. I was a huge Nets fan when they were still in NJ and he used to kill us with that midrange face up game. Miami didn't utilize him to his strengths at all.

[Kblaze8855]

I think what OP is missing is that superstars do affect the players they play with either positively or negatively.


yeah, sure. In the last 40 years I’ve failed to notice players play better or worse depending on the situation. Yea. Escaped me.

But even being this blind I see the difference between “Worthy got lucky playing with Magic and running all the time. Played to his strengths” and “Magic is better than Bird because Worthy was a bum who wouldn’t be remembered on the Clippers”.

Players are as good as they are. They aren’t as good as you can make their teammates out to not be.

But the team aspect….we just get miles down these rabbit holes and everyone is just a pawn in a larger battle.

And it really overshadows everything. Even personal belief in some cases. You’re on here all the time acting like 3ball is some astute observer of the game just telling the truth that people don’t wanna hear. But as late into his career as 2021 he was saying Steph literally wouldn’t make the nba in the 70s and was a worse shot maker than Gail Goodrich and Brian Winters. Someone can be that out of touch, but still have your complete support as a Basketball observer because you share a team. And you can only criticize your own team so much. It’s like a pledge to support your parties candidates no matter who wins the primary. You can know he’s an idiot. But you have to be a good soldier.

if you think Stephen Curry could not make the NBA in 1978 you’re simply bad at evaluating basketball. That’s not an “Well I don’t agree with that but I think he’s pretty knowledgeable in general.” thing. That’s being a flat earth guy. Once you’re that far gone…they can’t be defended as reasonable because they also like the same tv shows you do.

Some things just mean you’re stupid or so dishonest you can’t be listened to. But the respective teams watch such things be said daily and keep supporting the ticket because dammit…that’s my team.

[tpols]

Players are as good as they are.

And that's the whole point. You claim to acknowledge fit and chemistry and how a player can be positively or negatively affected by it, but ignore players stand alone value.

James Worthy was a super lotto pick talent #1 overall who played ahead of Michael Jordan in college. You really want to compare his talent to drays? A guy who barely made the league? Youre not looking at stand alone value at all.


“Well I don’t agree with that but I think he’s pretty knowledgeable in general.”

That's pretty much how I've always seen that poster. Nobodies perfect. His analyses are fairly spot on about a lot of things and he backs it up with a ton of context.

[Dbrog]

It's hard for me to believe the "stans" on this website are anything more than trolls. I don't think anybody could ACTUALLY believe some of the ridiculous takes they have (ex: endless threads demeaning Scottie Pippen or endless threads saying there are NO ARGUMENTS AT ALL for anyone to be GOAT except Bron)

[Kblaze8855]

Nah. You can’t “Reasonable men may differ” the opinion that Steph isn’t as good as Slick Watts and couldn’t make the nba in the 70s. You can’t. Someone with that opinion is doing one of two things…being dishonest…or stupid. But you can’t just call it what it is because people don’t criticize members of their own party. At least not the lap dogs. He’s basically dude in Congress who turned out to be a South American drag queen who made up his entire background. You just don’t talk about it. He’s on the team. We aren’t getting rid of him. The greater good is served by not acknowledging the absurdity of his lies and scandals. No matter what your side does you can’t give it a full honest evaluation it deserves because to acknowledge you side with an idiot all the time discredits you by association.

frankly, most of the people on both sides of a lot of these issues are ****ing stupid and the people on their side should flat out say so, but they don’t because they’re all on the team together.

Just have to run in a pack. I would rather both sides think I’m an idiot for saying what I actually believe than to pretend idiots are reasonable, because they agree with me on one particular issue.

[ShawkFactory]

If a guy can make the All NBA team while being on a mediocre or bad cast that's proof he's an All NBA talent in his own right. And not getting their due to pure circumstance.

Yes it is true we exaggerate due to who we like as basketball players. Nobody is perfect. Southbeach with Kyrie is probably the worst. He acts like he's a scrub when he was a number 1 overall pick, the brightest star and MVP in FIBA international competition, and went off with Wilt statlines and the biggest clutch shot in the Finals for his own favorite players greatest "win". And also acting like Love is a scrub when he was All NBA on the shitty twolves and a rebounding champion prior to Cleveland.



I think what OP is missing is that superstars do affect the players they play with either positively or negatively. Bosh and Love making All NBA teams prior to Miami and Cleveland and then never making them playing with LeBron is an indictment on their fit and chemistry. Everybody knows dray wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell being All NBA on those twolve or raptor teams. And that the winning spotlight playing on a dynasty and with a UMVP type player elevated his status. If you can't admit that you're lying to yourself.

Got guys acting like dray was better than Wade. Which sometimes he was but is that because he's the better talent or because one guy was in the perfect system to allow him to play well and the other guy was in a very suboptimal system by comparison?

A lot of you guys simply don't take fit and chemistry into account when analyzing superstars' helps talent.

It’s funny to me how you can think you understand the OP well enough to even be able to critique his argument…while unknowingly doing exactly what he’s talking about in the post.

[tpols]

You still couldn't address that awful james worthy analogy you've been making. Nobody ever hates on James Worthy because his talent was absolutely undeniable. That simply isn't the case for guys like dray who were nobodies coming into the league.

You still have said nothing to address chemistry or fit enhancing or detracting from players stand alone value.

Just going on a politics rant. :oldlol:



I actually DID fight 3ball on his curry stance. It's all over this site. That doesnt mean I think he's wrong on everything else.

[Kblaze8855]

You have a talent for missing the point. Nobody talked about James Worthy because back then fans bragged about how good the entire team was instead of trying to make the team out to look as bad as possible for the sake of the player they value more than the team itself. That’s the entire point. it changed when we started worshiping individuals. I can’t believe I have to spell it out that clearly.

in this era of player over team, nobody would give a shit where James Worthy was drafted just like they don’t give a shit where Kyrie Irving was drafted. He would be an obstacle to be discredited for the sake of his teams best player or amplified to discredit his teams best player. Just like everybody else.

It doesn’t matter one bit what accolades or background anyone has. You play with a polarizing star you’re either the reason he wins or you’re garbage he makes look good.

[tpols]

The league has always worshipped individuals. Bird vs Magic was a headline since like 1979. There was never a reason to hate on Worthy, McHale, Kareem, etc. because they were all big time star talents who produced tremendously and had that elite stand alone value.

[ShawkFactory]

The league has always worshipped individuals. Bird vs Magic was a headline since like 1979. There was never a reason to hate on Worthy, McHale, Kareem, etc. because they were all big time star talents who produced tremendously and had that elite stand alone value.

No..there just wasn’t the internet. People hating on those guys would have to do it with their chest in front of other people. Half the people on this site would be laughed out of any room then. There’s no consequences to being dishonest or stupid anymore.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s fairly obvious which one of us actually existed in the time in question and saw the transition in both media coverage and fan reaction so this isn’t something I’m going to bother fighting with you about. You don’t have any other world to compare this to. There is no comparing todays player only fans who follow a guy all over the league and shit on his teammates to sports fans of previous times.

I’m not 100% sure anyone ever responded to a question about who they followed with anything but a team name before some period in the 90s. Every Laker fan I knew was a Laker fan. They weren’t Magic Johnson fans who obviously hated the Lakers and talked down about everyone on the roster but him. The Celtic fans like the Celtics. They didn’t like Larry bird and talk shit about whoever else. Now I did know some Isiah Thomas fans when I was in Chicago who didn’t like the Pistons but that’s a hometown thing which is a bit different.

Generally speaking, people were fans of a team. Fans today are broken up by what player they support. If asked “Who you like?” on the subject of the nba the answer is more likely to be “Bron” or “Kyrie” than it is to be a team at this point.

i’m around a good number of young people who actively play ball and kids who want to and I’m not 100% certain any of them even have a team. Now I know people who want the Warriors to win because they like Steph and I know people who want the Lakers to win because they like LeBron but I’m not sure we are even producing team fans anymore.

[tpols]

No..there just wasn’t the internet. People hating on those guys would have to do it with their chest in front of other people. Half the people on this site would be laughed out of any room then. There’s no consequences to being dishonest or stupid anymore.

"Chest in front of other people".

What are you going to do? Beat me up? I'm likely way bigger than you.

There's nothing dishonest about bringing up how fit and chemistry affect different players productions. Highlighting and enhancing some while detracting and diminishing others. Looking at stand alone value as the base measuring stick. You guys don't want to have that debate though.

[tpols]

It’s fairly obvious which one of us actually existed in the time in question and saw the transition in both media coverage and fan reaction so this isn’t something I’m going to bother fighting with you about. You don’t have any other world to compare this to. There is no comparing todays player only fans who follow a guy all over the league and shit on his teammates to sports fans of previous times.

I’m not 100% sure anyone ever responded to a question about who they followed with anything but a team name before some period in the 90s. Every Laker fan I knew was a Laker fan. They weren’t Magic Johnson fans who obviously hated the Lakers and talked down about everyone on the roster but him. The Celtic fans like the Celtics. They didn’t like Larry bird and talk shit about whoever else. Now I did know some Isiah Thomas fans when I was in Chicago who didn’t like the Pistons but that’s a hometown thing which is a bit different.

Generally speaking, people were fans of a team. Fans today are broken up by what player they support. If asked “Who you like?” on the subject of the nba the answer is more likely to be “Bron” or “Kyrie” than it is to be a team at this point.

i’m around a good number of young people who actively play ball and kids who want to and I’m not 100% certain any of them even have a team. Now I know people who want the Warriors to win because they like Steph and I know people who want the Lakers to win because they like LeBron but I’m not sure we are even producing team fans anymore.

And that's what the team hopping culture produced. Superstars used to stick to 1 team maybe 2 max, and now they hop all over. It's hard to be a fan of a team when you never know whose going to be representing it.

[ShawkFactory]

"Chest in front of other people".

What are you going to do? Beat me up? I'm likely way bigger than you.

There's nothing dishonest about bringing up how fit and chemistry affect different players productions. Highlighting and enhancing some while detracting and diminishing others. Looking at stand alone value as the base measuring stick. You guys don't want to have that debate though.

Wtf? :lol Holy shit how do you consistently not understand what people are saying to you.

The idea itself is not dishonest. The way some people use it, warp it and don't include other nuances involved is.

The Bosh example you already presented is a great example of it.

[bison]

And it carries over even when players are moved to different teams. Still the ongoing argument about how good somebody is because they played with somebody four or five years ago.

Eventually there’s just a web of tainted opinions across the whole league and it feels pointless to solicit opinions about anyone.

Right. I also dislike stan culture for the players as well. They aren’t allowed to be part of a team anymore. They are judged by individual accolades. Mvps, rings, awards. I hate the disrespect Barkley gets for not having a ring. It’s a boring running joke by casuals. Even a guy like Chris Paul who is a wonderful basketball player might only ever be remembered for not winning a ring. On the opposite end you have Kevin Durant whose rings are thoroughly disrespected. Organizations still get respect for rings but it’s always accompanied by toxic narratives (especially the ‘asterisk’ ring).

But I will say being a team fan immunizes you from that crap. When your team wins it’s still awesome even if you have fewer people to share that joy with

[RogueBorg]

From where I stand, all of this started when the Lebronnies started trying to elevate Lebron to GOAT status. I never heard or saw a peep about Pippen before that. The Bronnies strategy is, the greater Pippen is perceived, the more it knocks down Jordan, which in turn lifts up Lebron. Remember the "Jordan needed Pippen" while all "Lebron needed was a ball" talk. In turn, the Jordan fans attempt to bring some balance to the over-inflated value of Pippen's greatness comes across as Pippen bashing.

I'm a Moses Malone fan. The Bulls are my favorite team, Jordan is my second favorite player. But I am admittedly biased towards Jordan.

[Jasper]

Right. I also dislike stan culture for the players as well. They aren’t allowed to be part of a team anymore. They are judged by individual accolades. Mvps, rings, awards. I hate the disrespect Barkley gets for not having a ring. It’s a boring running joke by casuals. Even a guy like Chris Paul who is a wonderful basketball player might only ever be remembered for not winning a ring. On the opposite end you have Kevin Durant whose rings are thoroughly disrespected. Organizations still get respect for rings but it’s always accompanied by toxic narratives (especially the ‘asterisk’ ring).

But I will say being a team fan immunizes you from that crap. When your team wins it’s still awesome even if you have fewer people to share that joy with

not sure why Durant rings disrespected (KD carried the Warriors , even though Steph claimed it 'his team'

[bison]

I honestly don’t and will never understand player Stan culture. Kobe is my favorite player from my favorite team. OP said Kobe stans trash gasol and Shaq. I don’t know anyone in the laker fan community that hates Shaq or gasol. Gasol is royalty here and Shaq is a legend. Meanwhile Kobe is a like a rock legend, a Tupac or Kurt cobain type figure mythologized through tragedy. I don’t get committing to one player when you can have a whole team.

[bison]

not sure why Durant rings disrespected (KD carried the Warriors , even though Steph claimed it 'his team'

Kd stans vs curry stans. But I’m sure any genuine warriors fan didn’t give a sh1t and lapped it all up.

[ShawkFactory]

not sure why Durant rings disrespected (KD carried the Warriors , even though Steph claimed it 'his team'

They won 73 games the year before. He didn't "carry" anything :lol

However, he's still an amazing player and the negative energy he gets because of those rings is BS. People almost talk about KD more now to disrespect his rings than how great of a player he is.

[Duffy Pratt]

I’m perfectly comfortable admitting that my bias influences my opinions, but it’s irrelevant since I’m always right.

As for your examples, I don’t think they apply to me since I’m not a fan of individual players. It’s a team game. Makes no sense to me to deride one teammate in order to build up the reputation of another teammate. That just betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the game - one that got successfully pushed out by David Stern as a marketing ploy.