Dwight Howard elaborates on why he thinks his prime was better than current Jokic

[Im Still Ballin]

We had a thread on this a month or so back when Dwight first made the comment on a podcast. He's just done a follow-up interview, elaborating on his perspective.


https://www.complex.com/sports/a/zion-olojede/dwight-howard-vs-nikola-jokic-interview

I think I was reading the other day where you said your prime is better than Jokic right now-

Yeah, of course. Obviously, people going to say Jokic can score. He got all those offensive skills. But at the same time, I was getting 38 and 20, 45-18, 19, 20, and I'm doing all this with twos. No threes, all twos. I'm doing this with lobs. I'm not getting a lot of post-up attempts like Jokic. He's getting way more opportunities I would say as far as to show his low post game and all that stuff. And I was just in a different era.

So, people look at that and say, "Well, Jokic, he scores and does all this stuff." And no offense, I think he's great. I love Jokic. I don't want people to think that I'm trying to hate even comparing, but I'm going to take myself. I know how dominant I was and I know what I could do with my skills. And on the defensive end and on the offensive end I was quick enough to get past everybody.

So, I didn't necessarily have to use skill moves and stuff like that all the time to score. I use my speed a lot. I use power to finesse or sometimes speed to finish with power. I just had an array of different things but people just remember seeing me dunk the ball on people's head.

And I love Jokic and I'm happy for him. I think he's one of the best centers that ever played the game on basketball, but I'm not going to throw dirt on my own name. I'm Dwight Howard. I know what I've done in this league.

[White Hammer]

He explains himself very well. I still disagree, but he makes some good points while being magnanimous. Good for him.

[warriorfan]

It’s closer then people would think. And there are era differences as well. At their primes both of them were up there in best player in the league conversations.

Jokic is an offensive savant and has underrated defense

Howard was an defensive savant with underrated offense

I would guess impact advanced metrics would favor Jokic. His offensive contributions are off the charts. He would be great in any area of course but freedom of movement and space and pace have definitely unlocked Jokic’s true potential.

[Overdrive]

We had a thread on this a month or so back when Dwight first made the comment on a podcast. He's just done a follow-up interview, elaborating on his perspective.

He's acting like he put up 40/20 games all the time. It usually were 18/12 games. Granted in a lesser offensive era, but still.

Also he actually undermines why Jokic is seen as a better player rn. Howard wasn't forced to score on lobs and 3ft jump hooks by anyone, but his skillset. He obviously was capable to score 20+ppg in his prime, but that's about it.

[Jimmy Rustler]

People forget what an absolute beast Howard was for a couple years. I would give Jokic the edge by being a better leader and facilitator, but the difference really isn't that big.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's crazy to me people think this is a close comparison. I understand the eras are different and offense is favored heavily now, but Jokic is a legitimate GOAT level talent who's been playing at a historic level for 3 years now, and just had one of the greatest playoff runs ever. You put Dwight in this era he is not touching what Jokic has been able to achieve these last few seasons. You want to claim Dwight's better than Embiid, I'd get on board with that. Jokic is simply in a different tier than Dwight, the evidence is overwhelming in support of this and just by the eye test. And this is coming from someone who thinks Dwight is criminally underrated, ludicrously getting shafted from the 75th team when you could argue him as top 50.

[tpols]

Peak Dwight is underrated. I hear people saying he was ass on offense... they obviously weren't watching him before his back injury. He required an auto double or triple in the post or it was a slam dunk. He was like a more agile quicker Shaq who still had similar unbelievable strength and power. And he actually tried and prided himself on defense.

Physically Jokic would have 0 chance of guarding him. Old Dwight locked him up in 2020 too albeit he had way more help to be able to focus on doing that. Jokic would probably ultimately outsmart and produce him on the other end H2H due to his unreal shooting and passing and if it came to clutch time would have a huge advantage there too.

[Lebron23]

Peak Dwight is underrated. I hear people saying he was ass on offense... they obviously weren't watching him before his back injury. He required an auto double or triple in the post or it was a slam dunk. He was like a more agile quicker Shaq who still had similar unbelievable strength and power. And he actually tried and prided himself on defense.

Physically Jokic would have 0 chance of guarding him. Old Dwight locked him up in 2020 too albeit he had way more help to be able to focus on doing that. Jokic would probably ultimately outsmart and produce him on the other end H2H due to his unreal shooting and passing and if it came to clutch time would have a huge advantage there too.

Do you even have a job?? Do you even play basketball??

[Dbrog]

Lol..Dwight did his damage in a league where all the good big men just retired (and when he faced Shaq or Yao, got put up like...12/8). Granted joker is also doing this in a watered down big man league but still...funny how Dwight had 0 competition and thinks he was one of the GOAT centers

[ArbitraryWater]

He can explain it as nicely as he wants to, hes an idiot for even thinking so.


It isnt "its closer than people think" at all.

[tpols]

Do you even have a job?? Do you even play basketball??

You are a small jungle monkey with limited frontal lobe capacity. Refute the points or don't.

[Kblaze8855]

I understand the eras are different and offense is favored heavily now


People always say that then present evidence that suggests they don’t. It’s become the new “No offense” which is always followed by something they intend to offend.

I don’t care if you think Jokic is better than Dwight(he likely is) I could just do without the throw away “Yea era differences…but” that precedes every discussion where someone uses previously unfathomable performances made easier by this era and style of play to rank someone over players who would never have had a chance to do those things.

If we are taking todays absurd performances at face value let’s just say that and stop being selective about when we actually apply “Era differences tho”. I’m not even saying you can’t take what happens today at face value. I’m just saying…if you do…id prefer to hear that instead of pretending there aren’t rules intended to open the game, spacing and switching allowing bigs to be guarded by wings and even point guards often enough to barely take note of it, artificially increased pace with new shot clock rules and intended increases from gameplans and on and on. The second “big” always being a Durant, Rui, Strus/Jimmy/Caleb or whatever….fine. Game has changed.

But can we either acknowledge it plays a massive role in how all these guys(Be it Jokic, Giannis, or whoever you want) produce and dominate and win or just take it all at face value and not bother pretending to acknowledge the difference then going right along….not acknowledging it?

You can’t play the way any of the last 3 finals mvps played in the times the people they get compared to all time played. Not wouldn’t. Could not. The rules in some cases and personnel in others would not allow it.

Doesnt mean they can’t all be all timers. They obviously are. But it’s so different it’s almost like the 60s where you can acknowledge the accomplishment while also accepting you can’t make direct one to one comparisons of everything.

We aren’t capable as a society of keeping comparisons to common eras. I love Jokics style. I love Giannis. I readily acknowledge Steph is all time elite as well. But I’m not gonna “Era differences…but” my way to Giannis being the best 4 ever because he produces like it. Jokic has a unique skill combo. And he had it years ago when I was asking why people weren’t talking more about it. He’s in his post win high like when Giannis, Leonard, and Steph were getting ranked or over with Bird/Duncan, Kobe, and Magic or Lebron(all 3 instantly got the Lebron talk). It’s to be expected. I remember Shaq>Jordan talks when he won his third. That’s sports.

Nobody is gonna knock Jokic off the perch till we watch him lose 9 more times with the same skill set. And if someone did…it probably shouldn’t be Dwight Howard….but I’ll add this…


When Dwight was flying high Dwight or prime Lebron wasn’t considered a stupid question. Kinda like how in 1990 absolute peak Jordan came in third in the gm poll for player you most want to start a team around after David Robinson and Magic. Things like that become stupid question viewed through a historical lens. But at the time?

Dwight, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade were pretty much the top 4 and Dwight could be at any spot. If he could be ranked with that company it’s not inconceivable he could be seen as similar to Jokic is it?

[Carbine]

Dwight demanding and auto double or triple team in the post is one of the top 5 most ludicrous things I've read on here.

I lived through the entire Dwight era and knew what I was watching. He had REPS that remind you of Shaq with his Billy ball power and finishing, but it was not a consistent thing whatsoever.

[Kblaze8855]

Dwight was pretty consistently unguardable one on one largely due to quickness but his bad ft shooting gave an alternative to doubling. Just foul him. That’s how he was taking 10 shots a game and 10-11 free throws. He still got doubled all the time though. Teams would generally foul or double when he was getting touches. Not finishing lobs. Real touches. Teams didn’t generally just play him honest. The few guys who could would often kick his ass though. I feel like at one point Yao could guard Dwight.

[SouBeachTalents]

You're a little too hung up on the era difference comment. If you put Dwight in this era he simply would not dominate the league to the extent that Jokic has, and would never in a million years be capable of a 30/10/10 title run, or something equivalent in dominance to it. Embiid is currently in top 3 discussions with Jokic & Giannis, that doesn't automatically mean he should be seen on the same level as Shaq or Hakeem.

[DMAVS41]

People always say that then present evidence that suggests they don’t. It’s become the new “No offense” which is always followed by something they intend to offend.

I don’t care if you think Jokic is better than Dwight(he likely is) I could just do without the throw away “Yea era differences…but” that precedes every discussion where someone uses previously unfathomable performances made easier by this era and style of play to rank someone over players who would never have had a chance to do those things.

If we are taking todays absurd performances at face value let’s just say that and stop being selective about when we actually apply “Era differences tho”. I’m not even saying you can’t take what happens today at face value. I’m just saying…if you do…id prefer to hear that instead of pretending there aren’t rules intended to open the game, spacing and switching allowing bigs to be guarded by wings and even point guards often enough to barely take note of it, artificially increased pace with new shot clock rules and intended increases from gameplans and on and on. The second “big” always being a Durant, Rui, Strus/Jimmy/Caleb or whatever….fine. Game has changed.

But can we either acknowledge it plays a massive role in how all these guys(Be it Jokic, Giannis, or whoever you want) produce and dominate and win or just take it all at face value and not bother pretending to acknowledge the difference then going right along….not acknowledging it?

You can’t play the way any of the last 3 finals mvps played in the times the people they get compared to all time played. Not wouldn’t. Could not. The rules in some cases and personnel in others would not allow it.

Doesnt mean they can’t all be all timers. They obviously are. But it’s so different it’s almost like the 60s where you can acknowledge the accomplishment while also accepting you can’t make direct one to one comparisons of everything.

We aren’t capable as a society of keeping comparisons to common eras. I love Jokics style. I love Giannis. I readily acknowledge Steph is all time elite as well. But I’m not gonna “Era differences…but” my way to Giannis being the best 4 ever because he produces like it. Jokic has a unique skill combo. And he had it years ago when I was asking why people weren’t talking more about it. He’s in his post win high like when Giannis, Leonard, and Steph were getting ranked or over with Bird/Duncan, Kobe, and Magic or Lebron(all 3 instantly got the Lebron talk). It’s to be expected. I remember Shaq>Jordan talks when he won his third. That’s sports.

Nobody is gonna knock Jokic off the perch till we watch him lose 9 more times with the same skill set. And if someone did…it probably shouldn’t be Dwight Howard….but I’ll add this…


When Dwight was flying high Dwight or prime Lebron wasn’t considered a stupid question. Kinda like how in 1990 absolute peak Jordan came in third in the gm poll for player you most want to start a team around after David Robinson and Magic. Things like that become stupid question viewed through a historical lens. But at the time?

Dwight, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade were pretty much the top 4 and Dwight could be at any spot. If he could be ranked with that company it’s not inconceivable he could be seen as similar to Jokic is it?

Dwight's best years were probably 08 through 11...not saying I disagree much with the overall points above, but in no way was Dwight or really any of those guys, demonstrably better than Dirk those years...and you'd need to add a healthy KG to that list as well and also Duncan. In reality, when healthy, Dwight was probably the guy you'd want the least out of Lebron/Kobe/Wade/KG/Dirk/Duncan/Dwight...

Could Dwight be seen as similar to Jokic? Sure, but it depends on how we are using similar...both are all-time greats, so in that sense...they are similar...but when you really get into the details...I think it is clear that Jokic is on a different tier.

[tpols]

Dwight demanding and auto double or triple team in the post is one of the top 5 most ludicrous things I've read on here.

I lived through the entire Dwight era and knew what I was watching. He had REPS that remind you of Shaq with his Billy ball power and finishing, but it was not a consistent thing whatsoever.

You might have been the guy that said it.

And you absolutely didn't watch back then. His bully ball wasn't a "once in a while" thing. It was an every possession thing. Dwight on almost every play bullied whoever was guarding him into an extreme low post position, and a double was required or it was an easy bucket.

Not only could he pure overpower like Shaq, but he could blow by and twist and turn past other big men like their feet were stuck in mud. He had 9/10 Shaq strength with much more maneuverability. And prided himself on defense leading the #1 rank.

His peak was undeniably great. Could match anybody in the top 15-25 all time. But he was very athleticism dependant and once that went his decline was sharp in terms of being a franchise player.

[1987_Lakers]

Dwight's best years were probably 08 through 11...not saying I disagree much with the overall points above, but in no way was Dwight or really any of those guys, demonstrably better than Dirk those years...and you'd need to add a healthy KG to that list as well and also Duncan. In reality, when healthy, Dwight was probably the guy you'd want the least out of Lebron/Kobe/Wade/KG/Dirk/Duncan/Dwight...

Could Dwight be seen as similar to Jokic? Sure, but it depends on how we are using similar...both are all-time greats, so in that sense...they are similar...but when you really get into the details...I think it is clear that Jokic is on a different tier.

I mean, I don't think Dwight is near Jokic's level, but Dwight was better than Dirk in '09 & '10. Also had a better regular season than Dirk in 2011, but Dirk had that epic playoff run.

[Carbine]

He averaged 19.9 ppg and 1.4 apg for his entire Magic career. 18.5 and 1.5 in the regular season. This is not indicative of someone who needed an auto double or triple.

Absolutely a dominant player overall. Not a great one vs one offensive player. This was well known during his Magic career.

[DMAVS41]

I mean, I don't think Dwight is near Jokic's level, but Dwight was better than Dirk in '09 & '10. Also had a better regular season than Dirk in 2011, but Dirk had that epic playoff run.

I'm talking about overall as players during that time. Sure, there were instances and timeframes in which Dwight had a better regular season or something. No issue with that at all, but from roughly 06 through 11 or 12...absolutely nothing of note separating those guys like there was some top 4 or something.

If anything, Dwight would be last on a list of Kobe/Dirk/Lebron/Wade/Duncan/KG...just depends on the timeframe...the more broad it gets...the worse Howard will be ranked.

[tpols]

He averaged 19.9 ppg and 1.4 apg for his entire Magic career. 18.5 and 1.5 in the regular season. This is not indicative of someone who needed an auto double or triple.

Absolutely a dominant player overall. Not a great one vs one offensive player. This was well known during his Magic career.

He was factually one of the most doubled players in the league back then. Your stats tell nothing to dispute that.

There are guys like Shawn Marion or Jamison who averaged 20 a game while literally never being doubled. Stats don't tell the story in this case at all.

[Carbine]

He was factually one of the most doubled players in the league back then. Your stats tell nothing to dispute that.

There are guys like Shawn Marion or Jamison who averaged 20 a game while literally never being doubled. Stats don't tell the story in this case at all.

That kind of proves the point. Dominant offensive players who need auto double and triple teams (Dwight was also the best power finisher around the hoop off passes) score more than what he did in Orlando.

The running joke about his total offensive package was Dwight was a Kevin Willis ass player.

The way you describe him is like he's this unstoppable force that can only be contained by double teams. That was so so so far from the truth in reality. All of his coaches understood that, why can't you?

[tpols]

It.... doesn't prove your point at all. You tried to justify a 20 ppg average to say he was never doubled. And that's simply not the case. Joe Johnson used to get a lot of doubles while scoring at a Jordan Clarkson output.

Points per game doesn't determine your threat level. Dwight has playoff series of:

24/16 on 68%FG
26/13 on 65%FG (ECFs en route to the Finals)
27/16 on 63%FG

Show me Kevin Willis doing that. His peak was short lived and he did have a skill deficit but the above combined with his borderline GOAT defense Dwight was a formidable force.

[Carbine]

I said Dwight was never doubled?

Please quote me this.

[DMAVS41]

It.... doesn't prove your point at all. You tried to justify a 20 ppg average to say he was never doubled. And that's simply not the case. Joe Johnson used to get a lot of doubles while scoring at a Jordan Clarkson output.

Points per game doesn't determine your threat level. Dwight has playoff series of:

24/16 on 68%FG
26/13 on 65%FG (ECFs en route to the Finals)
27/16 on 63%FG

Show me Kevin Willis doing that. His peak was short lived and he did have a skill deficit but the above combined with his borderline GOAT defense Dwight was a formidable force.

If you take his peak years...he was basically 21/14/2 with great defense over that period. He was the clear cut best player on mid to high 50 win teams and led a team to the finals.

That is a fantastic three or four year stretch...however one wants to define it...but I do not think his level or his results, even in that brief stretch he was his best...warrants top 15 or so comparisons all-time like you said.

[SouBeachTalents]

If you take his peak years...he was basically 21/14/2 with great defense over that period. He was the clear cut best player on mid to high 50 win teams and led a team to the finals.

That is a fantastic three or four year stretch...however one wants to define it...but I do not think his level or his results, even in that brief stretch he was his best...warrants top 15 or so comparisons all-time like you said.
There's no way Dwight has a top 15 or honestly even a top 25 peak. Even in his era there were multiple guys (LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Dirk) who all peaked higher than him.

[tpols]

If you take his peak years...he was basically 21/14/2 with great defense over that period. He was the clear cut best player on mid to high 50 win teams and led a team to the finals.

That is a fantastic three or four year stretch...however one wants to define it...but I do not think his level or his results, even in that brief stretch he was his best...warrants top 15 or so comparisons all-time like you said.

I'm not saying he's a top 15-25 GOAT based on that. What I believe is if you put him in a series with any top 15-25 player of all time with equal help he would have a good chance of winning. And he already proved that.

[Dbrog]

You might have been the guy that said it.

And you absolutely didn't watch back then. His bully ball wasn't a "once in a while" thing. It was an every possession thing. Dwight on almost every play bullied whoever was guarding him into an extreme low post position, and a double was required or it was an easy bucket.

Not only could he pure overpower like Shaq, but he could blow by and twist and turn past other big men like their feet were stuck in mud. He had 9/10 Shaq strength with much more maneuverability. And prided himself on defense leading the #1 rank.

His peak was undeniably great. Could match anybody in the top 15-25 all time. But he was very athleticism dependant and once that went his decline was sharp in terms of being a franchise player.

This isn't really accurate in the purest sense. It was always strange watching Dwight because if he straight posted players, even some smaller ones, he would consistently bounce off them and actually get pushed out (which is crazy considering how jacked he was). It wasn't until he turned a bit and lowered his shoulder or faced up and used his quickness that he was actually able to "bully" people.

Edit: This is also why he got owned by Yao. He would STILL bounce off if he lowered his shoulder and if he faced up, Yao could still get to his basic shots from the back. He truly didn't ever have much of a diverse or technical skillset which was a big knock that he never worked on during his career. It was a common criticism that if he would have just been more serious about improving rather than making people laugh, he could've really excelled.

[tpols]

This isn't really accurate in the purest sense. It was always strange watching Dwight because if he straight posted players, even some smaller ones, he would consistently bounce off them and actually get pushed out (which is crazy considering how jacked he was). It wasn't until he turned a bit and lowered his shoulder or faced up and used his quickness that he was actually able to "bully" people.

He had relatively thin legs but massive upper body. The thin legs gave him his quickness and explosiveness (instead of being sluggish on the ground) and his upper body created the contact to move mass. Either way... go look at a highlight tape of 2009-2011 Dwight. He used that combo to create extreme momentum.

P=MV.

His lower body generated the velocity and his upper body delivered the mass. The momentum was uncontainable without help.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not saying he's a top 15-25 GOAT based on that. What I believe is if you put him in a series with any top 15-25 player of all time with equal help he would have a good chance of winning. And he already proved that.

I disagree and he definitely did not prove that. Lebron did not get equal help in that series.

Dwight, with equal help, to the likes of just the best players around that time...is losing most of those series. He was great, he just wasn't as great as you are acting like he was.

[Dbrog]

He had relatively thin legs but massive upper body. The thin legs gave him his quickness and explosiveness (instead of being sluggish on the ground) and his upper body created the contact to move mass. Either way... go look at a highlight tape of 2009-2011 Dwight. He used that combo to create extreme momentum.

P=MV.

His lower body generated the velocity and his upper body delivered the mass. The momentum was uncontainable without help.

He definitely had that ability but as you're saying, it was brute force, rather than utilizing skill. Kinda like early Bron when he would just literally run through people and there was too much inertia to stop him. Again, it helped that Dwight just happened to hit his prime as there really weren't any other great bigs in the league, at least defensive ones.

[tpols]

I disagree and he definitely did not prove that. Lebron did not get equal help in that series.

Dwight, with equal help, to the likes of just the best players around that time...is losing most of those series. He was great, he just wasn't as great as you are acting like he was.

:lol I'm not going down that rabbit hole all day but he absolutely did prove it averaging 26/13 on 65%FG beating a 66 win team without HCA.

[DMAVS41]

:lol I'm not going down that rabbit hole all day but he absolutely did prove it averaging 26/13 on 65%FG beating a 66 win team without HCA.

If you watched that series and thought Lebron got equal help...you just don't live in reality.

End of the day...Dwight did not have roughly a top 15 peak. Your claims are made even more absurd by the fact that you shitted on Howard when Kobe got him. The **** if you thought Kobe was getting a player roughly as good as the 15 or 20 best players ever.

[Carbine]

Dwight was coming off massive back problems when he came to Lakers, right?

[Norcaliblunt]

If Dwight played on those mid 2000 Suns teams instead of Amare Stoudemire Phoenix wins multiple titles and Nash / Howard goes down as a top 3 duo of all time.

[Dbrog]

If Dwight played on those mid 2000 Suns teams instead of Amare Stoudemire Phoenix wins multiple titles and Nash / Howard goes down as a top 3 duo of all time.

Would be hard to say. They heavily relied on Amare scoring 40 a night sometimes. Dwight didn't have his agility to come out on those pick n rolls. Their defense would have been greatly improved though which could have been enough. Not as clear cut as you are saying though...people thought they were gonna be lob-city in LA but that definitely didn't happen even for the part of the year that they were healthy together.

[LAL]

He's acting like he put up 40/20 games all the time. It usually were 18/12 games. Granted in a lesser offensive era, but still.

Also he actually undermines why Jokic is seen as a better player rn. Howard wasn't forced to score on lobs and 3ft jump hooks by anyone, but his skillset. He obviously was capable to score 20+ppg in his prime, but that's about it.

Bingo

[tpols]

Dwight was coming off massive back problems when he came to Lakers, right?

For sure.



“Ask him to show you the picture,” World Peace said.

World Peace came across like a school kid who just wanted to share something gross, but he happened to stick up for a friend in doing so.

The opportunity to see the photo came following the game, as Howard stood at his locker before the horde of media collapsed beneath him with cameras.

“What picture? Oh. Yeah, you can see it,” Howard said.

I asked if he could send it to me, but he declined, clearly trying to avoid adding to the media storm that has surrounded his season in L.A.

“Here, I’ll show it to you, though,” he said after thumbing through some photos on his iPhone.

And there it was. Disgusting. It looked like an elongated piece of chicken fat, a yellowish-white mass, laid out next to a ruler and measuring approximately 5 1/2 inches.

“Yeah, that was the part on my nerve they had to pull out,” Howard said.

Howard’s teammate was right -- the piece that came off the disk in his back was revolting.

“It was pretty nasty,” World Peace said. “I don’t even know how the hell he played. If he showed you the picture of that thing that came out of his back, the general public would take back all of the comments they made about him.”


A lot of you guys don't know how much that affected his game.

His injury made Ron Artest shiver.

[Kblaze8855]

You're a little too hung up on the era difference comment. If you put Dwight in this era he simply would not dominate the league to the extent that Jokic has, and would never in a million years be capable of a 30/10/10 title run, or something equivalent in dominance to it. Embiid is currently in top 3 discussions with Jokic & Giannis, that doesn't automatically mean he should be seen on the same level as Shaq or Hakeem.



Here’s the problem….

Id have told you a bunch of peoples numbers were impossible if you asked me before they modified the league to allow it.

I thought young Giannis was interesting. If you asked me if he could realistically do not just 30…but 30/14…shoot 55 percent…average the same assists as Larry Bird…and do it all in 30 minutes a game? Oh and be DPOY on top of it. I would’ve told you that’s a stupid question. That somebody who could score more than Shaq while rebounding like Barkley and getting that many assists, while having the energy to be the defensive player of the year and produce like that while playing hight end role player minutes would have to be comfortably GOAT level.

But it happened. And it happened in the same league a well established 6’3” guard started pulling down 11-12 rebounds a game. I wouldn’t have said it was possible. But you eliminate the second big on most teams and both true bigs on some and suddenly guys like him and PJ Tucker are in games at the 5. Dude doing 32/11/10. Not even in the 45 minutes a game Oscar needed. Did it in 34-35 minutes. I’m watching guards have 20/20/20 games. I’m watching multiple 70 point games in a season. I’m watching Harden and Luka and Karl-Anthony towns all have seasons that statistically have never been done. Im seeing 60 point triple doubles. I’m watching Jokic do the same. I sat on here and marveled at Kevin Garnett doing like 24,13 and five.

So when we talk about somebody who peaked more than a decade ago, and what numbers they would do today, I’m genuinely unsure how to even respond. People who were in the league a decade ago, started producing like the greatest players of all time could only have dreamed of as the league changed.

Of course I don’t think Dwight whatever have a 30/10/10 run but when I’ve seen Andre Drummond average like 17 and 16 in 30 minutes a game? I can’t say that Dwight wouldn’t be able to put up something like 24 and 18 for an entire playoff run especially if he goes three straight rounds without even having a power forward on the other team.

I just don’t know. It’s all so far out of the realm of what I thought was possible. That said it’s also possible the wrong coach could get sick of him just getting fouled all the time and missing and remove what few post ups Dwight had and make him strictly a role guy and he ends up averaging 17 a game.

My point isn’t that everybody from the past would just turn into a legend in today’s league. My point is the game is so very different I barely even know where to start a comparison.

I’m perfectly content to take Jokic over Dwight because he’s one of the most freakishly skilled people humanity will ever produce at that size. But he was that long before he won anything.

I just feel like when you can see the difference is wide enough that you have to add the standard “I know this era….” thing to every evaluation? It shouldn’t basically be lip service that is thrown out just because you know you have to acknowledge it.

I think the fair thing is to both acknowledge current incredible accomplishments, and not downplay people because you never saw them in a situation where those accomplishments could realistically be achieved.

You certainly see me acknowledge that it’s incredible Giannis dropped 50 to win the title. But you don’t see me involving Larry bird and pointing out he didn’t. The leagues are simply too different. In Jokic versus Embiid, I think it’s fair to talk about what one did, and the other didn’t, because they’re sharing a prime in the same league.

What am I supposed to do with KAT and some big who played in 1984?

you just have to talk skills and try to normalize for the difference in play styles. You really can’t do it but you can try. For somebody like Dwight? He wasn’t even considered skilled in his prime. He certainly wasn’t considered as skilled as anybody like Steve Nash or Kobe but he was consistently ranked right next to them. So what do we do with that?

Dwight never getting a freedom of movement, wings as bigs, no doubles due to spacing, run like never before league makes assuming what he’d do in one hard. Hell a long long washed up and injured Dwight had the third best scoring and best rebounding season per minute of his career on the damn Hornets a few years ago.



https://youtu.be/HkWs-bobT7g


And that guy was washed as ****.

If you instead of having Big Z, Andy, and washed Ben Wallace out there as the bigs you have one real big(who would generally be a 4 in the past anyway) and guys like Strus, Jimmy Butler, Rui, Durant and so on at the 4 and as backup bigs….

How do you keep Dwight from 24 rebounds and the putbacks that come with it?

I just don’t know how to make the comparison. Like I said, all I can do is go by skill, and obviously Jokic curbstomps Dwight and puts him in a shallow grave skills wise. But so did 80% the people he was playing against.

I just don’t know that any of it is as easy as we want it to be. Like I said, I’m fine if you take Jokic over Dwight. I would take Jokic over Dwight. I’m just not sure theres a consistent methodology to the process.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

The gap is too big defensively, people say Jokic wasn't in his prime when Dwight was guarding him in the bubble but there's a much bigger gap between Orlando Dwight & 2020 Dwight compared to current Jokic and 2020 Jokic.

[JohnMax]

Dwight was a player who used his speed to convert to power. But he didn't have ability to attack from long distance like Lebron or Giannis so he couldn't generate as much speed.

He didn't have Shaqs lower body strength so he couldn't generate as much speed and power in short distance.

That's why he never consistently averaged 25+ ppg like those guys. He was an inferior version of them. His style of play also leads to injuries since he's ramming his body into defenders. So it's not a surprise he had a short career.

Don't let these clowns with ulterior motives fool you. They are weaponizing Dwight to attack evolution of basketball which is represented by big men who generate most of their offense from midrange and threes. They are also using Dwight to attack black men they hate such as Embiid who married a white woman or Anthony Davis who is light skinned and therefore has white admixture.

[Im Still Ballin]

Prime Dwight averaged between 18-23 PPG on 57-61% FG and 60-63% TS. Those numbers came in a slower-paced league where league-wide 2PT FG% and TS% were around 48 and 54 respectively. TS% is 58 now; 2PT FG% is like 54-55.

Can you imagine what those numbers might look like in today's league? We have guys like Nick Claxton and Mason Plumlee shooting 70% on 7-8 2PT FGs per game. Deandre Ayton shot 64% FG on like 12 2PT FGs per game in 2022. Dwight was right at the top of the league back then and he would be today as well.

If you adjust his numbers for this era, he'd be doing like 21-26 PPG on 63-67% FG and 64-67% TS. On top of being the potential rebounding champ and potential DPOY every season.

He didn't need much help either. Just some good shooters and guys who can make post-entry passes. When he was on the court, Orlando had like a top 5 half-court offense for four or five seasons straight.

[Im Still Ballin]

For what it's worth, Dwight absolutely murdered protomodern small lineups back in the day. He brutalized Toronto's Bosh-Bargnani tandem. He swept Toronto 4-1 in 2008 at 22 years old and put up 22.6 ppg, 18.2 rpg, and shot 63.8% FG and 63.9% TS. Those numbers line up with what kblaze loosely suggested.

Obviously, not all teams today are that frail upfront. But a lot of them are; the number of Bynum/Gasol, Wallace/Wallace, and Perkins/Garnett is far lower.

[HylianNightmare]

3xDpoy, should've been 4

[highwhey]

Dwight was coming off massive back problems when he came to Lakers, right?

yes, from doing a massive carry job

[WhiteKyrie]

Peak Dwight is underrated. I hear people saying he was ass on offense... they obviously weren't watching him before his back injury. He required an auto double or triple in the post or it was a slam dunk. He was like a more agile quicker Shaq who still had similar unbelievable strength and power. And he actually tried and prided himself on defense.

Physically Jokic would have 0 chance of guarding him. Old Dwight locked him up in 2020 too albeit he had way more help to be able to focus on doing that. Jokic would probably ultimately outsmart and produce him on the other end H2H due to his unreal shooting and passing and if it came to clutch time would have a huge advantage there too.

Very good post. And I agree. I never liked him but prime D12 is underrated now.

[Jasper]

We had a thread on this a month or so back when Dwight first made the comment on a podcast. He's just done a follow-up interview, elaborating on his perspective.

howard is delusional , he was very good , but he is no Joker.
Howard dial down on the Hash plz

[Micku]

He's acting like he put up 40/20 games all the time. It usually were 18/12 games. Granted in a lesser offensive era, but still.

Also he actually undermines why Jokic is seen as a better player rn. Howard wasn't forced to score on lobs and 3ft jump hooks by anyone, but his skillset. He obviously was capable to score 20+ppg in his prime, but that's about it.

It's not just scoring either. Jokic is just one of the great passers in the history of the game.

Howard wasn't like Shaq in terms of dominating the opponents and the opposing team defense like that. I do think Howard is underrated, but I do think he had chances to show he could do it in the post. He is underrated, but not on that Jokic lvl for sure. Even despite the era imo. You could check out their footwork, their moves, their touch around the basket, and such.

Howard was 20/14 guy with dpoy defense. That's amazing. While he could score, he had an okay post game, but it wasn't as polished as Jokic or anything. I know he talks about his lack of touches in the post, but they were times when he didn't do anything with it or the defense shut that down. The most polished he was at his post-game was 2011 or 12 After that his back injury, he wasn't the same anymore.

Today he might've been better due to the spacing and small ball lineups. But they would try to get him to shoot 3s now to expand his game.

[Jimmy Rustler]

It's not just scoring either. Jokic is just one of the great passers in the history of the game.

Howard wasn't like Shaq in terms of dominating the opponents and the opposing team defense like that. I do think Howard is underrated, but I do think he had chances to show he could do it in the post. He is underrated, but not on that Jokic lvl for sure. Even despite the era imo. You could check out their footwork, their moves, their touch around the basket, and such.

Howard was 20/14 guy with dpoy defense. That's amazing. While he could score, he had an okay post game, but it wasn't as polished as Jokic or anything. I know he talks about his lack of touches in the post, but they were times when he didn't do anything with it or the defense shut that down. The most polished he was at his post-game was 2011 or 12 After that his back injury, he wasn't the same anymore.

Today he might've been better due to the spacing and small ball lineups. But they would try to get him to shoot 3s now to expand his game.

I don't agree that he's one fo the great passers in the history of the game. He's a good passer for sure, but he's one of those guys who makes a ton of very high risk passes. When they get through, everyone's reaction is, "Ooooooooo, what an incredible pass!" But a lot of times they don't get through. He makes a lot of needless turnovers doing unnecessary thread-the-needle passes.

[ShawkFactory]

I don't agree that he's one fo the great passers in the history of the game. He's a good passer for sure, but he's one of those guys who makes a ton of very high risk passes. When they get through, everyone's reaction is, "Ooooooooo, what an incredible pass!" But a lot of times they don't get through. He makes a lot of needless turnovers doing unnecessary thread-the-needle passes.

I can live with maybe 2 needless turnovers a game because it comes with all the things he does. Plus the threat of the passes he’s capable of keeps the defense guessing and uncomfortable.

[1987_Lakers]

I don't agree that he's one fo the great passers in the history of the game. He's a good passer for sure, but he's one of those guys who makes a ton of very high risk passes. When they get through, everyone's reaction is, "Ooooooooo, what an incredible pass!" But a lot of times they don't get through. He makes a lot of needless turnovers doing unnecessary thread-the-needle passes.

Jokic not an all-time great passer cause of turnovers? He basically averaging the same amount of turnovers as peak Bill Walton, I'm guessing he isn't an all-time great passer either. :oldlol:

Magic Johnson in his prime was averaging more turnovers.

Great passers are usually among the leaders in turnovers because of their usage rate.

Chris Paul is the only player I could think of that didn't turn the ball over much despite having a high usage rate while also being known as a passer.

[iamgine]

To me Dwight is more on the Alonzo Mourning Level.

[Im Still Ballin]

To me Dwight is more on the Alonzo Mourning Level.

What does that mean though?

Alonzo led teams to similar levels of performance to Jokic. And the supporting casts don't appear to be that much different. Jokic won a championship while Alonzo didn't but using that to determine who's better isn't very sound logic. Because it assumes the supporting casts, circumstances such as injuries, and the strength of opposition were the same.

[iamgine]

What does that mean though?

Alonzo led teams to similar levels of performance to Jokic. And the supporting casts don't appear to be that much different. Jokic won a championship while Alonzo didn't but using that to determine who's better isn't very sound logic. Because it assumes the supporting casts, circumstances such as injuries, and the strength of opposition were the same.

It means not as good as some other centers.

[Im Still Ballin]

It means not as good as some other centers.

And how do you determine that? What's your methodology here?

[iamgine]

And how do you determine that? What's your methodology here?

Eye test, stats, etc. Same as everyone.

[Im Still Ballin]

Eye test, stats, etc. Same as everyone.

But then why doesn't the team performance support your hypothesis then? If Jokic is truly a cut above the Alonzo's and Dwight's, why haven't his teams performed like it on the whole? Is it supporting cast? Strength of opposition?

I have no issue with anyone picking Jokic over those two. I just think these comparisons are generally closer than people would like to admit. I could make strong arguments for either of them.

[iamgine]

But then why doesn't the team performance support your hypothesis then? If Jokic is truly a cut above the Alonzo's and Dwight's, why haven't his teams performed like it on the whole? Is it supporting cast? Strength of opposition?

I have no issue with anyone picking Jokic over those two. I just think these comparisons are generally closer than people would like to admit. I could make strong arguments for either of them.
I've answered this in the other thread.

[hold this L]

But then why doesn't the team performance support your hypothesis then? If Jokic is truly a cut above the Alonzo's and Dwight's, why haven't his teams performed like it on the whole? Is it supporting cast? Strength of opposition?

I have no issue with anyone picking Jokic over those two. I just think these comparisons are generally closer than people would like to admit. I could make strong arguments for either of them.

He's 28 years old, 1x champion, another WCF appearance and two seasons riddled with his best teammates being injured. What do you mean why haven't his teams performed? He's done exceptionally well so far into his career.

[Im Still Ballin]

He's 28 years old, 1x champion, another WCF appearance and two seasons riddled with his best teammates being injured. What do you mean why haven't his teams performed? He's done exceptionally well so far into his career.

But not to the level that you'd expect given how people talk about him in comparison to supposed lesser players like Dwight and Alonzo. If he truly was so far beyond them that "it isn't even close" I'd expect the team performance to show that. But it hasn't really. Jokic has led similarly strong teams to Dwight and Alonzo.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. The difference in supporting casts is negligible and the level of team performance on the whole is similar.

And if anything, Dwight's teams have performed best. His 2009 Run was done without Jameer Nelson for half the season and pretty much the entire playoffs. He came back in the Finals but was a shell of himself.

No one has been able to provide a strong answer for the question I raised in this thread:

Somebody help me explain this difference between prime Dwight and other great players (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?513197-Somebody-help-me-explain-this-difference-between-prime-Dwight-and-other-great-players)

iamgine's answer is that "[the league was]...weaker when Dwight's Orlando won 50+ games."


OP is correct in saying Dwight's teammates were not better than Embiid or Jokic. But the reason for Orlando's 50+ regular season wins seasons was not because Dwight was close/equal/better than Embiid/Jokic/Garnett. It's due to the league was not very good during those seasons.


I'm not sure I buy that. But anyways.

[Baller789]

Well, Dwight does have gaping holes in his game.
Terrible free throw shooter and no J.

We can also say that with Shaq and Wilt, but those two were offensive juggernauts. Something D13 wasn't even close to.

[Im Still Ballin]

Well, Dwight does have gaping holes in his game.
Terrible free throw shooter and no J.

We can also say that with Shaq and Wilt, but those two were offensive juggernauts. Something D13 wasn't even close to.

I would say being a poor rim protector as a center is a more catastrophic issue than being a 59-60% FT shooter or not being able to shoot a jump shot.

Shooting those numbers from the free throw line equates to like 1.18-1.20 PPP. A jump shot is not a requirement for being an impactful offensive player. Offense comes in many forms. One style isn't inherently more valuable than another.

Jokic to me has both greater strengths and weaknesses.

[Baller789]

I would say being a poor rim protector as a center is a more catastrophic issue than being a 59-60% FT shooter or not being able to shoot a jump shot.

Shooting those numbers from the free throw line equates to like 1.18-1.20 PPP. A jump shot is not a requirement for being an impactful offensive player. Offense comes in many forms. One style isn't inherently more valuable than another.

Jokic to me has both greater strengths and weaknesses.

Yeah. But Dwight's limited offense can't offset his poor FT% the way Wilt and Shaq does is my point.