How many guys lost a series while getting 26.8 ppg or more from 2nd leading scorer

[3ba11]

2011 Finals, 2017 Finals, 2023 WCF

Any others?

It's remarkable that those 3 losses were historic chokes, sweeps or near-record losses - with 27 ppg from a sidekick!!

[1987_Lakers]

Peja owns you

[3ba11]

Peja owns you


Im killing his entire life lol. I control him

And the only example I can find is Durant in 2012 Finals (27 ppg from Westbrook)..

So it's funny that the only way someone can lose with 27 ppg from a teammate is when it's an entirely manufactured scenario where the opponent took the top 3 first options in a conference and put them on 1 team - a complete dilution of a conference and consolidate power on 1 team - ONLY THEN can someone lose with 27 ppg from a sidekick.... It's either that or Lebron-ball

[Kblaze8855]

Would imagine Durant and Westbrook. Baylor and West had to. They probably did 30 a piece one of the finals losses to the Celtics. I don’t know who you wanna say the best player on the 03 Lakers was. If Shaq…I’m sure Kobe was over 27 vs the Spurs. I suspect some combo of Kiki, Alex English and Dan Issel did it. Kelly Tripuka playing with Isiah Thomas when they would just run and shoot. Wasn’t best player. Might have scored 27 in a series loss in there.

Probably a lot. Know how many people have a 27ppg series? Two guys do 27 each you still only have 54 points. It’s hardly making you a lock to beat a team that can score 130 with depth. Kyrie and Luka are probably gonna do in the next year or two.

[SouBeachTalents]

Would imagine Durant and Westbrook. Baylor and West had to. They probably did 30 a piece one of the finals losses to the Celtics. I don’t know who you wanna say the best player on the 03 Lakers was. If Shaq…I’m sure Kobe was over 27 vs the Spurs. I suspect some combo of Kiki, Alex English and Dan Issel did it. Kelly Tripuka playing with Isiah Thomas when they would just run and shoot. Wasn’t best player. Might have scored 27 in a series loss in there.

Probably a lot. Know how many people have a 27ppg series? Two guys do 27 each you still only have 54 points. It’s hardly making you a lock to beat a team that can score 130 with depth. Kyrie and Luka are probably gonna do in the next year or two.
Dillon Brooks nearly averaged that two years ago.

Dillon Brooks :oldlol:

[Axe]

1-9

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Off the top of my head...

Kobe with Shaq in 2003
KD with Westbrook in 2016

We know you desperately wanted this to be about Lebron. But as others said, you'd find a handful more just looking them up.

[ShawkFactory]

Off the top of my head...

Kobe with Shaq in 2003
KD with Westbrook in 2016

We know you desperately wanted this to be about Lebron. But as others said, you'd find a handful more just looking them up.

Yea KD has done it 3 times with Westbrook. 2012 finals, 2014 Spurs, 2016 Warriors.

Ironically, Westbrook scored exactly 26.8 in the later two series.

[3ba11]

Would imagine Durant and Westbrook. Baylor and West had to. They probably did 30 a piece one of the finals losses to the Celtics. I don’t know who you wanna say the best player on the 03 Lakers was. If Shaq…I’m sure Kobe was over 27 vs the Spurs. I suspect some combo of Kiki, Alex English and Dan Issel did it. Kelly Tripuka playing with Isiah Thomas when they would just run and shoot. Wasn’t best player. Might have scored 27 in a series loss in there.

Probably a lot. Know how many people have a 27ppg series? Two guys do 27 each you still only have 54 points. It’s hardly making you a lock to beat a team that can score 130 with depth. Kyrie and Luka are probably gonna do in the next year or two.


Virtually NONE of your examples were valid - why do you guys think any response is a good response?

Kobe was leading scorer in 2003 and Shaq only averaged 25

None of the Elgin/West series had both over 26.8 ppg - not remotely close in any series

I haven't looked up Kiki and English in the 80's yet but do I have to?... Your examples were all wrong so the thread title or OP stands

[SouBeachTalents]

OP's 2nd best player ever lost with Shaq averaging 32 in '98, '24 in '99, 25 in '03 & 27 in '04.

His 3rd best player ever lost with McHale averaging 26 in '85 & 27 in '88.

Wilt did it with West I assume 3-4 times

Shaq did it with Wade 2 times

Magic did it with Kareem 3 times

You get the idea. OP only further proving he doesn't actually know anything about basketball :lol

[Kblaze8855]

Virtually NONE of your examples were valid - why do you guys think any response is a good response?

Kobe was leading scorer in 2003 and Shaq only averaged 25

None of the Elgin/West series had both over 26.8 ppg - not remotely close in any series

I haven't looked up Kiki and English in the 80's yet but do I have to?... Your examples were all wrong so the thread title or OP stands


The very first year I checked Baylor amen West were at 34 and 30 losing to the Celtics.

[Kblaze8855]

84 Nuggets all 3 I mentioned over 25 with the top two at 29 and 27.4.

[3ba11]

OP's 2nd best player ever lost with Shaq averaging 32 in '98, '24 in '99, 25 in '03 & 27 in '04.

His 3rd best player ever lost with McHale averaging 26 in '85 & 27 in '88.

Wilt did it with West I assume 3-4 times

Shaq did it with Wade 2 times

Magic did it with Kareem 3 times

You get the idea. OP only further proving he doesn't actually know anything about basketball :lol


The 2nd leading scorer must be at 26.8 or more

So you have no examples

Only KBlaze found 1 example from the 60's and I found one in 2012 with KD/Westbrook

Twice in 60 years except Lebron has 3 by himself

There are 1000 ways to show that Lebron's skillet and brand of ball CONSISTENTLY UNDERACHIEVES the on-paper talent and this is one of them

[Kblaze8855]

Kelly Tripuka also over 27 with Isiah but you edited it to “second leading scorer” no doubt to remove many more answers. He certainly wasn’t the teams best player or performer. Isiah was.

There are enough examples it isn’t even a tough question. I’ve thought of enough more in the last few minutes I don’t even feel the need to run them down. Suffice it to say the answer to your question is a lot.

[Baller234]

Would imagine Durant and Westbrook. Baylor and West had to...

Not singling you out or dismissing the point you were trying to make, but this right here shows why these stat based arguments are ridiculous to begin with.

You can't hold every generation to the same standard. 25 points in 1965 doesn't mean the same thing as 25 points in 2012.

[ShawkFactory]

The 2nd leading scorer must be at 26.8 or more

So you have no examples

Only KBlaze found 1 example from the 60's and I found one in 2012 with KD/Westbrook

Twice in 60 years except Lebron has 3 by himself

There are 1000 ways to show that Lebron's skillet and brand of ball CONSISTENTLY UNDERACHIEVES the on-paper talent and this is one of them

Well that eliminates the 2011 finals then since Wade was the leading scorer.

Westbrook was the second leading scorer at 26.7 in 2016 against the Warriors.

[3ba11]

Kelly Tripuka also over 27 with Isiah but you edited it to “second leading scorer” no doubt to remove many more answers. He certainly wasn’t the teams best player or performer. Isiah was.

There are enough examples it isn’t even a tough question. I’ve thought of enough more in the last few minutes I don’t even feel the need to run them down. Suffice it to say the answer to your question is a lot.


You provided 1 example from the 60's of a guy losing a series with the 2nd-leading scorer getting 26.8 or more

I provided the other from 2012

That's twice in 60 years except Lebron has 3 by himself

Again, there are 1000 ways to show that Lebron's skillet and brand of ball CONSISTENTLY UNDERACHIEVES the on-paper talent and this is one of them

[1987_Lakers]

The 2nd leading scorer must be at 26.8 or more

:roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

The 2nd leading scorer must be at 26.8 or more

So you have no examples

Only KBlaze found 1 example from the 60's and I found one in 2012 with KD/Westbrook

Twice in 60 years except Lebron has 3 by himself

There are 1000 ways to show that Lebron's skillet and brand of ball CONSISTENTLY UNDERACHIEVES the on-paper talent and this is one of them
I think it shows he went up against a GOAT level team in one of them, and faced an ATG at his absolute peak at 38 years old in another. I'd say being the only other player besides Jordan with 4 FMVP's shows his skillset and brand of ball works fine.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not Kiki Vandeweghe... But Alex English and Dan Issel did it back in 1984.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1984-nba-western-conference-first-round-nuggets-vs-jazz.html

Anyway. Why did OP round to 27, but wont do it for Westbrook in 2016 :confusedshrug: Russ averaged 27 to KD's 30 vs Golden State. And they lost.


Kobe was the leading scorer in 2003 while Shaq only averaged 25

It's remarkable that those 3 losses were historic chokes, sweeps or near-record losses - with 27 ppg from a sidekick!!

Kobe was Shaq's sidekick, though. They lost to San Antonio with Kobe averaging 32 lol

[ShawkFactory]

West and Baylor lost 4 times with both guys averaging 26+.

[Kblaze8855]

Not singling you out or dismissing the point you were trying to make, but this right here shows why these stat based arguments are ridiculous to begin with.

You can't hold every generation to the same standard. 25 points in 1965 doesn't mean the same thing as 25 points in 2012.

And 25 after the freedom of movement emphasis isn’t 25 in 2003 but here we are.

none of this shit really means anything. If someone wants to cut off tenths of a point as if it makes a performance notably better you can make stat minimums show anything. The more specific you get the less answers but even with this level of it…there are still answers.

They don’t matter. But again…none of it matters. People scoring 24 a game have been far more useful to winning a game than people scoring 27. It’s just the usual internet bullshit to make points that aren’t worth talking about. Not like anybody thinks a 27ppg Stackhouse is more likely to make you win than a 23ppg Tim Duncan.

Just time killing trivia.

[tpols]

It amazes me people shit on AD when he averaged 27/14 on elite efficiency while being the best defensive player on either team. What more can you ask for?

Reaves and Rui also scored 21ppg and 15ppg on blistering 130 ORTG combined.

That's just ridiculous.

[3ba11]

Well that eliminates the 2011 finals then since Wade was the leading scorer.






Unfortunately, I must admit that's fair

So Lebron has 2 and the rest of the NBA has 3 in 60 years

To summarize - Lebron lost 2 series with the 2nd leading scorer at 26.8 AND he has the goat choke in 2011....... plus there's other upsets, record losses, sweeps, 1st Round loss, lottery or simply getting locked up himself

All in his prime!!!

[tpols]

And 25 after the freedom of movement emphasis isn’t 25 in 2003 but here we are.

none of this shit really means anything. If someone wants to cut off tenths of a point as if it makes a performance notably better you can make stat minimums show anything. The more specific you get the less answers but even with this level of it…there are still answers.

They don’t matter. But again…none of it matters. People scoring 24 a game have been far more useful to winning a game than people scoring 27. It’s just the usual internet bullshit to make points that aren’t worth talking about. Not like anybody thinks a 27ppg Stackhouse is more likely to make you win than a 23ppg Tim Duncan.

Just time killing trivia.

That's an awful comparison since Stackhouse was an awful defender and rebounder while AD was by far the best defender on either team and pulled down 14 boards a game. In addition to being way more efficient.

[Kblaze8855]

That's twice in 60 years except Lebron has 3 by himself


Its two if you don’t count.

I don’t know why you have to do this dishonest bullshit. Ridiculous as your point is it would still stand if you gave the real verifiable number. Pretending not to see answers right in front of you doesn’t mean they aren’t there.

[ShawkFactory]

Unfortunately, I must admit that's fair

So Lebron has 2 and the rest of the NBA has 3 in 60 years

To summarize - Lebron lost 2 series with the 2nd leading scorer at 26.8 AND he has the goat choke in 2011....... plus there's other upsets, record losses, sweeps or simply getting locked up himself

All in his prime!!!

What?

[Kblaze8855]

That's an awful comparison since Stackhouse was an awful defender and rebounder while AD was by far the best defender on either team and pulled down 14 boards a game. In addition to being way more efficient.


In a world where we are being stupid enough to act like points per game is the only thing that matters none of that factors in. Dan Issel is better help than Magic Johnson because he scored 27 a game. We are just being idiots.

[3ba11]

Its two if you don’t count.

I don’t know why you have to do this dishonest bullshit. Ridiculous as your point is it would still stand if you gave the real verifiable number. Pretending not to see answers right in front of you doesn’t mean they aren’t there.


I made the thread to find out the answer

So far we have 3 examples of guys losing with the 2nd leading scorer at 26.8 (Elgin/West... English/Issel.... KD/Westbrook)

That's 3 in 60 years plus Lebron has 2 by himself plus the goat choke

That's clearly statistically significant

[Baller234]

And 25 after the freedom of movement emphasis isn’t 25 in 2003 but here we are.

none of this shit really means anything. If someone wants to cut off tenths of a point as if it makes a performance notably better you can make stat minimums show anything. The more specific you get the less answers but even with this level of it…there are still answers.

They don’t matter. But again…none of it matters. People scoring 24 a game have been far more useful to winning a game than people scoring 27. It’s just the usual internet bullshit to make points that aren’t worth talking about. Not like anybody thinks a 27ppg Stackhouse is more likely to make you win than a 23ppg Tim Duncan.

Just time killing trivia.

Agreed on all of this.

The obsession with stats has really dumbed down basketball discussion. Stats can help us understand certain things, but they don't tell a definitive story.

The only thing dumber than using stats as a criteria for comparing greats is using media awards as a criteria for comparing greats.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I made the thread to find out the answer

So far we have 3 examples of guys losing with the 2nd leading scorer at 26.8 (Elgin/West... English/Kiki.... KD/Westbrook)

That's 3 in 60 years plus Lebron has 2 by himself plus the goat choke

That's clearly statistically significant

Westbrook and KD did it multiple times.

Again, you rounded to 27 in your OP. Be consistent and do that for Russ.

[SouBeachTalents]

I made the thread to find out the answer

So far we have 3 examples of guys losing with the 2nd leading scorer at 26.8 (Elgin/West... English/Issel.... KD/Westbrook)

That's 3 in 60 years plus Lebron has 2 by himself plus the goat choke

That's clearly statistically significant
Kobe in '04 and Bird in '88 too.

[3ba11]

Kobe in '04 and Bird in '88 too.


The thread title says losing with the 2nd leading scorer at 26.8

That's only happened 3 times in 60 years plus Lebron has 2 by himself (plus the goat choke in 11')

That's clearly statistically significant

[ShawkFactory]

KD and Booker lost with both of them doing 30+ just 3 months ago.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why this bitchass n*gga keep ignoring facts lol

[tpols]

In a world where we are being stupid enough to act like points per game is the only thing that matters none of that factors in. Dan Issel is better help than Magic Johnson because he scored 27 a game. We are just being idiots.

OP was actually selling AD short by not mentioning the rest of his game. If you included that it'd be even more of a landslide so I'm not sure what your point is.

[ShawkFactory]

Kelly Tripuka also over 27 with Isiah but you edited it to “second leading scorer” no doubt to remove many more answers. He certainly wasn’t the teams best player or performer. Isiah was.

There are enough examples it isn’t even a tough question. I’ve thought of enough more in the last few minutes I don’t even feel the need to run them down. Suffice it to say the answer to your question is a lot.

I noticed that too :lol

[ShawkFactory]

OP was actually selling AD short by not mentioning the rest of his game. If you included that it'd be even more of a landslide so I'm not sure what your point is.

His point is that all of this is stupid.

[tpols]

His point is that all of this is stupid.

Say what you want... but it's a fairly rare occurrence. Probably happened less than 10 times in 70 years.

[Kblaze8855]

The thread title says losing with the 2nd leading scorer at 26.8

That's only happened 3 times in 60 years plus Lebron has 2 by himself (plus the goat choke in 11')

That's clearly statistically significant


Once you changed it from



How many guys lost a series while getting 26.8 ppg or more from teammate


Sure. No doubt changed to remove the many many people who were a team leading scorer in a series, but not it’s best player.

There have been guys who were league mvp while a teammate scored 37ppg and they lost the series. It’s just that nobody cares because it doesn’t matter.

[SouBeachTalents]

So now it's not 2nd leading scorer on the team, it's 2nd leading scorer in the series. So now he's penalizing guys for scoring more?





:roll:

[Kblaze8855]

KD and Booker lost with both of them doing 30+ just 3 months ago.


sure did. That’s the thing I don’t get about people who make topics like this. If even after having discussed it a half dozen times, you don’t actually care enough to either go get the answers or accept the factual answers you’re given then shut the **** up. It’s not legitimate curiosity if you don’t really want answers. It happens. Nobody cares that happens because it doesn’t matter. These arbitrary cut offs mean absolutely nothing. If you’re not going to be disingenuous about it, and act like a 10th of a point matters, one way or the other and I’m legitimately interested in high scoring playoff duos then let’s have that discussion. Let’s not come in here and act like the less than one point spread over seven games that takes you from 26.8 to 26.7 actually means anything.

let’s not hear valid answers and change the question to get less of them. Let’s not hear valid answers to your even changed question and be too lazy to do the legwork to verify that you’re wrong before telling somebody else they are. If you don’t care enough to make sure you’re right when you call people out just don’t start the talk to begin with.

[ShawkFactory]

Say what you want... but it's a fairly rare occurrence. Probably happened less than 10 times in 70 years.

Sure. You can manipulate numbers and specific ways of using them to make a lot of things rare occurences.

The point is..who cares?

[tpols]

Sure. You can manipulate numbers and specific ways of using them to make a lot of things rare occurences.

The point is..who cares?

What's being manipulated? It's simply rare for a team with three 20+ point scorers with two of them being 25+ all super efficient to lose. Frame it how you want... it is what it is. I told you guys the Lakers were stacked. They had double digit leads in 2/4 games and basically just choked it away.

[ShawkFactory]

What's being manipulated? It's simply rare for a team with three 20+ point scorers with two of them being 25+ all super efficient to lose. Frame it how you want... it is what it is. I told you guys the Lakers were stacked. They had double digit leads in 2/4 games and basically just choked it away.

Again...sure. What does it matter though? Who cares...

It's rare for lots of randomly chosen things to happen.

[Full Court]

2011 Finals, 2017 Finals, 2023 WCF

Any others?

It's remarkable that those 3 losses were historic chokes, sweeps or near-record losses - with 27 ppg from a sidekick!!

I'll make a list for you OP.

1. Lebron "LeShrivel" James




I don't think I missed anyone.

[meat]

My god you guys are a bunch of homosexuals

[tpols]

What's being manipulated? It's simply rare for a team with three 20+ point scorers with two of them being 25+ all super efficient to lose. Frame it how you want... it is what it is. I told you guys the Lakers were stacked. They had double digit leads in 2/4 games and basically just choked it away.



Again...sure. What does it matter though? Who cares...

It's rare for lots of randomly chosen things to happen.

OP framed it kind of wierd with the 26.8 cherrypicked number but if you round it out to a square three 20 point scorers and two 25 point scorers losing its an interesting phenomenom.

We're here talking basketball on a basketball website. What's wrong with this topic?

[hateraid]

Cherry picked stats once again.
OP trying to divert attention away from getting slaughtered in the other thread

[ShawkFactory]

OP framed it kind of wierd with the 26.8 cherrypicked number but if you round it out to a square three 20 point scorers and two 25 point scorers losing its an interesting phenomenom.

We're here talking basketball on a basketball website. What's wrong with this topic?

Don't be dense. You know exactly why it was brought up.

[hateraid]

Don't be dense. You know exactly why it was brought up.

Lol, the Jordaneers jumping in to defend one of 3balls agenda post is all of a sudden a phenomenon

[StrongLurk]

Peja really made OP completely lose his shit even more somehow. OP has been posting even more pathetic nonsense than usual...completely broken and shook by Peja.

[tpols]

Don't be dense. You know exactly why it was brought up.

Fine. Let's lower the bar.

Is there even an example of three 20+ point scorers losing a playoff series? I'm sure there is. It'll just be a real short list.

[ShawkFactory]

Fine. Let's lower the bar.

Is there even an example of three 20+ point scorers losing a playoff series? I'm sure there is. It'll just be a real short list.

Off the top of my head, the 1991 Warriors have to be one.

But even if we go back to the 25+ for teammates. Aside from the Nuggets in the early 80s, all of the examples given in this thread were either 1970 and before or 2012 and after. Something to discuss.

[Kblaze8855]

This is just one of those era dependent things. It was not quite unthinkable to have a trio of people even averaging 20 points per game at one point. It was something that made you historically notable. A bunch of teams might do it next year. The Warriors just did it. The 76ers. Did Tyler Herro average 20? If so, the heat probably just did it. The Hornets might even do it. Or the Pelicans. The average team scores like 116 points a game right now. Now, the 80s, and 60s obviously have weird numbers.

[3ba11]

26.8 is only cherry-picked in the sense that it matches the amount that Lebron just lost with, so I was curious how many guys lost with that much from the 2nd leading scorer.

It turns not that almost no one lost with that much from the 2nd leading-scorer.

And I think Lebron had another 20-point scorer in the WCF too?..

Essentially, Lebron has numerous series that approach the top percentiles of best casts to ever lose - he just lost with 26.8 and has lost with 3 different 27 ppg sidekicks (11', 17', 23') - he also lost a series with 2 teammates getting 20 ppg, while losing 3 other times with 2 all-star teammates (11', 14', 17').

Given this help, Lebron should've had dominant dynasties from 2011-2017 and 2020-2023 but instead he had perennial underdogs and one 60-win season.

Ultimately, Lebron's game loses the attrition battle - his point-guard hold-time and assisted rate constitute abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position that lets defenses rest and have more capacity to go off on offense.. This contrasts with superior brands of ball like the Warriors, Spurs or Nuggets that whip the ball around and wear down defenses, so they have less capacity for offense..

[tpols]

Off the top of my head, the 1991 Warriors have to be one.

But even if we go back to the 25+ for teammates. Aside from the Nuggets in the early 80s, all of the examples given in this thread were either 1970 and before or 2012 and after. Something to discuss.

I mean... the example you gave was from the 90s. So 70s, 80s, 90s, 2012 and on it seems to be very rare.

I don't think there's ever been a team with two 25+ ppg scorers and a tertiary 20 ppg third scorer to lose or win a playoff series.

It's an unprecedented feat win or lose.

[WhiteKyrie]

That impactful scoring is much more valuable than great help rotation defense and 16 - 18 ppg on putrid 40%

[RRR3]

DURRRRR KYRIE BEDDA DEN PIPPEN
This is why no one takes you seriously

[ShawkFactory]

I mean... the example you gave was from the 90s. So 70s, 80s, 90s, 2012 and on it seems to be very rare.

I don't think there's ever been a team with two 25+ ppg scorers and a tertiary 20 ppg third scorer to lose or win a playoff series.

It's an unprecedented feat win or lose.

I’m sure the warriors did it several times.

[Full Court]

Lebron is also the only player ever to lose with Austin Reaves. The ONLY one...

Think about that.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron is also the only player ever to lose with Austin Reaves. The ONLY one...

Think about that.

Shiiittttt!

Jokic is the only guy to ever lose with Jamal Murray. Fvcking loser.

[Overdrive]

Virtually NONE of your examples were valid - why do you guys think any response is a good response?

Kobe was leading scorer in 2003 and Shaq only averaged 25


How does 2011 count then? Wade was the leading scorer. If you move the goalposts atleast don't destroy your own agenda.

[Full Court]

Shiiittttt!

Jokic is the only guy to ever lose with Jamal Murray. Fvcking loser.

He also won with Murray though, so it balances out.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Im killing his entire life lol. I control him


You can't even control yourself, much less another human being. You claimed to be done several days ago but will keep coming back into the thread.

(Don't get me wrong: I welcome and encourage it. By all means, return.)

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

It's exceedingly simple, and often repeated on my end:

You don't play basketball against history. You play it against other teams.

GSW '17 example: Curry (the Warriors second-highest scorer) was outscored by Irving (the Cavs second-highest), by 2.6 ppg...but averaged 4 more rebounds, 5 more assists, and had 60 points of TS% over him

Denver '23 example: Murray (the Nuggets second-highest scorer) plain outscored AD (the Lakers second-highest).


Here's the kicker:


..............no matter who would’ve lost either series, the losing-teams second scorer would've averaged 26.8+ points per game.


LOL.

[HoopsNY]

LeBron has also played 20 seasons. It's more likely to happen given his tenure. Also, why 26.8 PPG? Why not 25.5 PPG? For example, Shaq lost with Penny averaging 25.5 PPG against Houston, and then again the next year against Chicago.

This isn't some rare occurrence that a high scorer gets a lot of points from his teammate and then they still lose. Are we forgetting Barkley losing with KJ putting up 26.6 PPG in 1994? Then losing again in 1995 with KJ putting up 27.9 PPG? Granted, KJ was the leading scorer, but he was still the second option in those days.

[RRR3]

I feel like 3ball actually winds up getting people who wouldn’t otherwise cheer for LeBron to root for him. Because he’s that annoying.

[sdot_thadon]

How many guys have 100s of 1000s of posts and still.get ruined in every single thread, that's gotta be a record. I feel like a punching bag gets more wins against the boxer than this dummy does on this site.....

[HoopsNY]

How many guys have 100s of 1000s of posts and still.get ruined in every single thread, that's gotta be a record. I feel like a punching bag gets more wins against the boxer than this dummy does on this site.....

It's a good topic tbh. However, it's flawed if we're going to arbitrarily use 26.8 PPG as a dividing line. I would think historically, most people think of 25+ PPG as a defining line. Once you look at it that way, then it opens up to a lot of other guys.

[sdot_thadon]

It's a good topic tbh. However, it's flawed if we're going to arbitrarily use 26.8 PPG as a dividing line. I would think historically, most people think of 25+ PPG as a defining line. Once you look at it that way, then it opens up to a lot of other guys.

Well that's the point, this guy purposely cherry picks or outright fudges stats purposely to make convoluted points that are usually losers. Why not 25? Why round up for guys that help your argument but not the ones that hurt it? I've always felt like he secretly hated Mj and made retarded arguments to push the opposite agenda....

[Overdrive]

I feel like 3ball actually winds up getting people who wouldn’t otherwise cheer for LeBron to root for him. Because he’s that annoying.

Trolls generally do that for me. Not a James fan, but I'll defend him against trolls just as much as I'd defend other players. Every player has shortcomings, but pointing them out day after day or even making some up is just tiring. There's nothing to gain from that behavior.

[Overdrive]

It's a good topic tbh. However, it's flawed if we're going to arbitrarily use 26.8 PPG as a dividing line. I would think historically, most people think of 25+ PPG as a defining line. Once you look at it that way, then it opens up to a lot of other guys.

25 is just as arbitrary, people just love multiples of 5.

[3ba11]

Kobe in '04 and Bird in '88 too.


Kobe and Bird weren't over 26.8 - they have to be the 1st options and lose with 26.8 from the 2nd-leading guy

so far we have 2 or 3 examples in 60 years and then Lebron's 2 examples from 17' and 23'

[3ba11]

Well that's the point, this guy purposely cherry picks


How is it cherry-picked when 26.8 is the amount that Lebron just lost with from AD?

Lebron just lost with 26.8 from the 2nd-leading scorer so I wanted to find out how many guys lost with 26.8 from the 2nd-leading scorer and it turns out that almost no one ever lost that way - mostly just Lebron

[RRR3]

Kobe and Bird weren't over 26.8 - they have to be the 1st options and lose with 26.8 from the 2nd-leading guy

so far we have 2 or 3 examples in 60 years and then Lebron's 2 examples from 17' and 23'
But you said AD was the first option…

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe and Bird weren't over 26.8 - they have to be the 1st options and lose with 26.8 from the 2nd-leading guy

so far we have 2 or 3 examples in 60 years and then Lebron's 2 examples from 17' and 23'
Oh ok, so if you were the first option during the regular season and scored less than LeBron did in '17 & '23 and your 2nd option did in the series you don't get penalized, but LeBron gets penalized for scoring more than they did. That definitely makes sense :applause:

I know you're mentally ill and incapable of honest discourse, but do you even comprehend what you're arguing right now :lol You're literally claiming LeBron averaging 34/10/10 against arguably the GOAT team is worse than Kobe averaging 22 on dogshit efficiency in a series he was the massive favorite in.

[3ba11]

Oh ok, so if you were the first option during the regular season and scored less than LeBron did in '17 & '23 and your 2nd option did in the series you don't get penalized, but LeBron gets penalized for scoring more than they did. That definitely makes sense :applause:

I know you're mentally ill and incapable of honest discourse, but do you even comprehend what you're arguing right now :lol You're literally claiming LeBron averaging 34/10/10 against arguably the GOAT team is worse than Kobe averaging 22 on dogshit efficiency in a series he was the massive favorite in.


of course Kobe was bad in the 2004 Finals - that was his 2nd-worse Finals but it's still better than Lebron's worst or 2nd-worse Finals

So we have to compare apples to apples (aka worst to worst)

Now if we're looking to compare Kobe to Lebron's best, we can look at the 2009 Finals where Kobe had comparable numbers to Lebron, WHILE defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load), and of course employing a superior brand of ball movement that achieved better teams/Finals records with less help (a bosh-level player at sidekick)..

Kobe's superior brand of ball had perennial favorites with a bosh-level player at sidekick, while Lebron's ball-domination had perennial underdogs with bosh at 3rd option

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

You can keep avoiding me or refusing to quote me directly little man. Won’t change that this thread was already ended:


It's exceedingly simple, and often repeated on my end:

You don't play basketball against history. You play it against other teams.

GSW '17 example: Curry (the Warriors second-highest scorer) was outscored by Irving (the Cavs second-highest), by 2.6 ppg...but averaged 4 more rebounds, 5 more assists, and had 60 points of TS% over him

Denver '23 example: Murray (the Nuggets second-highest scorer) plain outscored AD (the Lakers second-highest).


Here's the kicker:


..............no matter who would’ve lost either series, the losing-teams second scorer would've averaged 26.8+ points per game.


LOL.



The very two teams LeBron lost to each featured two players that averaged 26.8+. That’s why they lost (among other things). The real people on the real court opposite them had players that met this standard.

That’s how any team wins or loses a series. By contesting it against living, breathing basketball players. Not vague benchmarks or abstractions. No team in NBA history has ever played against “history”. They’ve all played against real human beings. Reifying abstract concepts won’t do a thing about it.

[HoopsNY]

You can keep avoiding me or refusing to quote me directly little man. Won’t change that this thread was already ended:





The very two teams LeBron lost to each featured two players that averaged 26.8+. That’s why they lost (among other things). The real people on the real court opposite them had players that met this standard.

That’s how any team wins or loses a series. By contesting it against living, breathing basketball players. Not vague benchmarks or abstractions. No team in NBA history has ever played against “history”. They’ve all played against real human beings. Reifying abstract concepts won’t do a thing about it.

Good point

[1987_Lakers]

I've never seen 3ball this shook by a poster, it's quite funny to see.

[RRR3]

I've never seen 3ball this shook by a poster, it's quite funny to see.
3ball is constantly shook tbh. His arguments get destroyed so he has to resort to spamming and copy and pasting. Peja actually tired him out which no one else has done though.

[DCL]

it's hilarious to see 3ball run away and hide whenever Peja shows up. :lol

[Spurs m8]

1987 MUST be a female.

Posts like a little b1tch

[ShawkFactory]

it's hilarious to see 3ball run away and hide whenever Peja shows up. :lol

It’s almost like an “Omar comin’” situation there.

[SouBeachTalents]

of course Kobe was bad in the 2004 Finals - that was his 2nd-worse Finals but it's still better than Lebron's worst or 2nd-worse Finals

So we have to compare apples to apples (aka worst to worst)

Now if we're looking to compare Kobe to Lebron's best, we can look at the 2009 Finals where Kobe had comparable numbers to Lebron, WHILE defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load), and of course employing a superior brand of ball movement that achieved better teams/Finals records with less help (a bosh-level player at sidekick)..

Kobe's superior brand of ball had perennial favorites with a bosh-level player at sidekick, while Lebron's ball-domination had perennial underdogs with bosh at 3rd option
Yep, the '09 Magic and the '17 Warriors are a very valid comparison, intelligent point per usual.

[Phoenix]

Well that's the point, this guy purposely cherry picks or outright fudges stats purposely to make convoluted points that are usually losers. Why not 25? Why round up for guys that help your argument but not the ones that hurt it? I've always felt like he secretly hated Mj and made retarded arguments to push the opposite agenda....

Honestly it's the only thing that really makes any sense. Its like RRR3 said above, 3ball argues in a way that makes someone who otherwise wouldn't root for Lebron look like a fan.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


26.8 was the right number because that's the amount that Lebron just lost with and it turns out that almost no one in history lost with that much from their 2nd-leading scorer.. Yet Lebron did it twice (23', 17').

This is just another example of Lebron losing with higher levels of help than almost anyone else lost with, such as losing with numerous 27 ppg sidekicks (11', 17', 23') or being the only guy with sidekicks that outplay league MVP's (11', 16', 20').

Given this level of help, Lebron should've had dynasties from 2011-2017' and 2020-2023.. Unfortunately, Lebron's game loses the attrition battle - his point-guard hold-time and assisted rate constitute abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position that lets defenses rest and have more capacity to go off on offense.. This contrasts with superior brands of ball like the Warriors, Spurs or Nuggets that whip the ball around and wear down defenses, so they have less capacity for offense..

[RogueBorg]

What's funny is you guys fall for this every single time and just can't help yourselves.

https://media.tenor.com/9RQ-vU0a0RgAAAAM/bugs-life-i-cant-help-it.gif