Was Wilt Chamberlain better when he scored less? | Offensive Legends Ep. 1

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVJrDj5GbtM

[Im Still Ballin]

Watched it earlier. Excited about the new series from Ben! Especially those long-awaited videos about Nash and Manu.

*Birdman hand rub*

[Kblaze8855]

He was probably more effective and his team success bears that out though he also had better teams when he shot less so it’s hard to say for sure. The weird thing to me is seeing people talk about his playoff points per game when he obviously sacrificed shots to make his teams better. And the same people talk about him being selfish. Obviously if you shoot less to focus on team basketball and have much more playoff success doing that your points per game will suffer because you’ll play more games going deeper in the playoffs with that style.

for his career in the playoffs, he scored 22 points per game because when he started playing team ball, his teams were better for it so he played many more games as that style of player in the playoffs. Feels like common sense not to hold it against him, but people do it.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Good stuff, thanks for the post. A lot of my basketball opinions became pretty firmly entrenched into adulthood, but the Wilt/Russell comparison is where I’ve really budged and Taylor contributed to this. Box score stats uniquely overrate Wilt and uniquely underrate Russell, who was not merely a better “winner” but the genuinely more impactful player. Had Wilt played more like Russ he’d have received half the acclaim but probably would’ve won a few more titles.

Now obviously no one is a one-man offence and Wilt didn’t have the best of casts until joining Philly (at which point his teams were stacked for the remainder of his career), but if a players box-score stats are GOAT-like on offence…it’s hard to square with them piloting offences below the league average. Wilt is that rare example of a player that is lesser than the sum of his parts. Great player, top 10, the whole shebang…but nowhere near “GOAT”.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

He was probably more effective and his team success bears that out though he also had better teams when he shot less so it’s hard to say for sure. The weird thing to me is seeing people talk about his playoff points per game when he obviously sacrificed shots to make his teams better. And the same people talk about him being selfish. Obviously if you shoot less to focus on team basketball and have much more playoff success doing that your points per game will suffer because you’ll play more games going deeper in the playoffs with that style.

for his career in the playoffs, he scored 22 points per game because when he started playing team ball, his teams were better for it so he played many more games as that style of player in the playoffs. Feels like common sense not to hold it against him, but people do it.

There is still some drop-off in the selected years but you’re right that his detractors miss the mark by highlighting this. The more damning thing is that the very style of play that allowed for his robust statistical profile wouldn’t have been possible on a really great team.

[hold this L]

No ATG has less impact on winning when he plays vs when he doesn't for his team (career) than Wilt. Dude was a statistical anomaly but nowhere near as good as the box score stats had you believe.

[Carbine]

He was probably more effective and his team success bears that out though he also had better teams when he shot less so it’s hard to say for sure. The weird thing to me is seeing people talk about his playoff points per game when he obviously sacrificed shots to make his teams better. And the same people talk about him being selfish. Obviously if you shoot less to focus on team basketball and have much more playoff success doing that your points per game will suffer because you’ll play more games going deeper in the playoffs with that style.

for his career in the playoffs, he scored 22 points per game because when he started playing team ball, his teams were better for it so he played many more games as that style of player in the playoffs. Feels like common sense not to hold it against him, but people do it.

He literally scores less in every post season vs his regular season.

Every. Single. Year.

Sometimes by a wide margin. That is absolutely fair critique of him.

[SouBeachTalents]

He was probably more effective and his team success bears that out though he also had better teams when he shot less so it’s hard to say for sure. The weird thing to me is seeing people talk about his playoff points per game when he obviously sacrificed shots to make his teams better. And the same people talk about him being selfish. Obviously if you shoot less to focus on team basketball and have much more playoff success doing that your points per game will suffer because you’ll play more games going deeper in the playoffs with that style.

for his career in the playoffs, he scored 22 points per game because when he started playing team ball, his teams were better for it so he played many more games as that style of player in the playoffs. Feels like common sense not to hold it against him, but people do it.
Ironically though, when he finally bought into a team concept and embraced playing the Russell role, his reluctance to score and put up shots hurt his teams in several critical moments.

1968 ECF: He takes just 9 shots in a 4 point loss in Game 7, including not even attempting a single shot in the entire 2nd half.

1969 Finals: After averaging 21 ppg in the regular season, he averages just 12 in the Finals, a series they'd lose their 4 games by a combined 18 points.

1970 Finals: With Reed getting injured in Game 5, Wilt takes 3 shots going up against the backups the entire 2nd half. Then after destroying the Knicks backups for 45 points in Game 6, going up against a gimpy Reed, he takes just 16 shots in Game 7, scoring less than half of what he did in Game 6.

Those are numerous instances where the championship was there for the taking, when his teams could've used him to score, and he inexplicably didn't. It's not even like he needed to go out there and drop 30, dude wasn't even matching his regular season output a lot of the time, in situations where it was screaming out for him to do so.

[Lebron23]

He is not a good playoffs and finals performer.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Ironically though, when he finally bought into a team concept and embraced playing the Russell role, his reluctance to score and put up shots hurt his teams in several critical moments.

1968 ECF: He takes just 9 shots in a 4 point loss in Game 7, including not even attempting a single shot in the entire 2nd half.

1969 Finals: After averaging 21 ppg in the regular season, he averages just 12 in the Finals, a series they'd lose their 4 games by a combined 18 points.

1970 Finals: With Reed getting injured in Game 5, Wilt takes 3 shots going up against the backups the entire 2nd half. Then after destroying the Knicks backups for 45 points in Game 6, going up against a gimpy Reed, he takes just 16 shots in Game 7, scoring less than half of what he did in Game 6.

Those are numerous instances where the championship was there for the taking, when his teams could've used him to score, and he inexplicably didn't. It's not even like he needed to go out there and drop 30, dude wasn't even matching his regular season output a lot of the time, in situations where it was screaming out for him to do so.


Yeah the guy just ****ing zagged and took new approaches to their extremes. Must’ve been a maddening experience as a fan. He put it together for a few years (‘67, ‘72) but could never sustain that equilibrium. Always had to shoot for some new record or milestone (points, leading the league in assists, field goal %, even not fouling out was a sacred cow)…almost always at the expense of the rhythm of the offence.

[Kblaze8855]

There’s nothing inexplicable about it. Inexplicable would be him giving him the ball and asking him to score and him failing to do so. It’s not inexplicable why you have 12 points a game when you take eight shots a game playing 48 minutes every night in the playoffs. He wasn’t shooting…not generally missing shots. And that’s the way they wanted it. They wanted him to play that way then were shocked he didn’t flip a switch and go back to his old style when the new style got them where they were. He did basically what his coaches and owners wanted. He was literally not even on the floor down the stretch for one of your examples because they coach was so intent on proving he wasn’t needed to win he told him “Tell him we don’t need him” and lost the title and got fired with Wilt asking back into the game.

He would never have set the scoring expectations so high to begin with left to his own style. He scored 50 a game because the owner asked him to do it for ticket sales. Natural style? Probably something like he played in Philly. He didn’t even consider scoring his best aspect. He was more proud of his rebound records.

Playoffs were probably just closer to him playing normal basketball instead of being force fed for publicity and ticket sales. His coaches late in his career are on record saying shit “You give him the ball…and he’ll score…but it’s not a fun style”. They just didn’t wanna watch him play that way.

Like I said coach literally refused to let him back into a game after he left for a second to get his knee worked on and watched them blow a lead and lose game 7….out of spite. The guy coaching the best big anyone had ever seen told him these exact words when he asked to come back into game 7 “No. You sit down and shut up”.

They did not want wilt scoring. One of his teammates at the time said so.

He was playing for an actual drunk who didn’t want him shooting:





“The record books can prove I changed my game. I’m the only guy who could hit a home run who was asked to hit a single because it would help my teammates by not making them look bad.

“They’d say, ‘Elgin drives to the basket, so get Wilt out of the middle.’ What’s the difference who puts the ball in the basket?

If I’m putting the ball in the basket at a higher percentage than anyone in the game, I belong in the middle, not Elgin.

I gave up scoring a lot more points to pass the ball to the likes of Keith Erickson.

And I’m not down on Keith Erickson, I’m just using his name.

“Then they’ve got this . . . idiot of a coach. He wasn’t an idiot as a coach, he was a good coach.

He was just an idiot as far as personalities were concerned.

It was just hard for me to look up to a man who’d go out and get drunk every night. I had no respect for the man.”




But nobody remembers or cares.

Theres a reason for everything. He wasn’t perfect but there is absolutely a reason he scored less as his career went on. Once he started playing D and passing his teams won and he embraced it. He played 48 minutes and would take 3 shots. Win or lose.

If a coach called a play and asked him to score he’d score. I don’t think there was any point in his life he couldn’t score. He’d have bad games like anyone but I don’t know if he was just shut down when he didn’t score. You can find bad shooting games no doubt but it wasn’t usual. Guy just stopped shooting as his teams needed him to shoot less and kept it up even when it would be nice for a throwback 25 shot night. Win or lose…he just wasn’t shooting anymore. They wanted it that way.

[1987_Lakers]

There’s nothing inexplicable about it. Inexplicable would be him giving him the ball and asking him to score and him failing to do so. It’s not inexplicable why you have 12 points a game when you take eight shots a game playing 48 minutes every night in the playoffs. He wasn’t shooting…not generally missing shots. And that’s the way they wanted it. They wanted him to play that way then were shocked he didn’t flip a switch and go back to his old style when the new style got them where they were. He did basically what his coaches and owners wanted. He was literally not even on the floor down the stretch for one of your examples because they coach was so intent on proving he wasn’t needed to win he told him “Tell him we don’t need him” and lost the title and got fired with Wilt asking back into the game.

He would never have set the scoring expectations so high to begin with left to his own style. He scored 50 a game because the owner asked him to do it for ticket sales. Natural style? Probably something like he played in Philly. He didn’t even consider scoring his best aspect. He was more proud of his rebound records.

Playoffs were probably just closer to him playing normal basketball instead of being force fed for publicity and ticket sales. His coaches late in his career are on record saying shit “You give him the ball…and he’ll score…but it’s not a fun style”. They just didn’t wanna watch him play that way.

Like I said coach literally refused to let him back into a game after he left for a second to get his knee worked on and watched them blow a lead and lose game 7….out of spite. The guy coaching the best big anyone had ever seen told him these exact words when he asked to come back into game 7 “No. You sit down and shut up”.

They did not want wilt scoring. One of his teammates at the time said so.

He was playing for an actual drunk who didn’t want him shooting:





But nobody remembers or cares.

Theres a reason for everything. He wasn’t perfect but there is absolutely a reason he scored less as his career went on. Once he started playing D and passing his teams won and he embraced it. He played 48 minutes and would take 3 shots. Win or lose.

If a coach called a play and asked him to score he’d score. I don’t think there was any point in his life he couldn’t score. He’d have bad games like anyone but I don’t know if he was just shut down when he didn’t score. You can find bad shooting games no doubt but it wasn’t usual. Guy just stopped shooting as his teams needed him to shoot less and kept it up even when it would be nice for a throwback 25 shot night. Win or lose…he just wasn’t shooting anymore. They wanted it that way.

Why was the "What player was your greatest personal disappointment?" thread locked?

[Kblaze8855]

Somehow the records show I’m the one who closed it. I just re-opened it though.

[SouBeachTalents]

There’s nothing inexplicable about it. Inexplicable would be him giving him the ball and asking him to score and him failing to do so. It’s not inexplicable why you have 12 points a game when you take eight shots a game playing 48 minutes every night in the playoffs. He wasn’t shooting…not generally missing shots. And that’s the way they wanted it. They wanted him to play that way then were shocked he didn’t flip a switch and go back to his old style when the new style got them where they were. He did basically what his coaches and owners wanted. He was literally not even on the floor down the stretch for one of your examples because they coach was so intent on proving he wasn’t needed to win he told him “Tell him we don’t need him” and lost the title and got fired with Wilt asking back into the game.

He would never have set the scoring expectations so high to begin with left to his own style. He scored 50 a game because the owner asked him to do it for ticket sales. Natural style? Probably something like he played in Philly. He didn’t even consider scoring his best aspect. He was more proud of his rebound records.

Playoffs were probably just closer to him playing normal basketball instead of being force fed for publicity and ticket sales. His coaches late in his career are on record saying shit “You give him the ball…and he’ll score…but it’s not a fun style”. They just didn’t wanna watch him play that way.

Like I said coach literally refused to let him back into a game after he left for a second to get his knee worked on and watched them blow a lead and lose game 7….out of spite. The guy coaching the best big anyone had ever seen told him these exact words when he asked to come back into game 7 “No. You sit down and shut up”.

They did not want wilt scoring. One of his teammates at the time said so.

He was playing for an actual drunk who didn’t want him shooting:





But nobody remembers or cares.

Theres a reason for everything. He wasn’t perfect but there is absolutely a reason he scored less as his career went on. Once he started playing D and passing his teams won and he embraced it. He played 48 minutes and would take 3 shots. Win or lose.

If a coach called a play and asked him to score he’d score. I don’t think there was any point in his life he couldn’t score. He’d have bad games like anyone but I don’t know if he was just shut down when he didn’t score. You can find bad shooting games no doubt but it wasn’t usual. Guy just stopped shooting as his teams needed him to shoot less and kept it up even when it would be nice for a throwback 25 shot night. Win or lose…he just wasn’t shooting anymore. They wanted it that way.
My issue is, even in his reduced capacity, he still wasn't matching his regular scoring output from the regular season. I'm sure the coaches wanted Wilt taking less shots, but c'mon, not taking a single shot in the 2nd half of a Game 7? Barely shooting when scrub backups are on you, then after dropping 45 points you can't even get half of that against a very injured Reed in Game 7 of the Finals?

Someone of Wilt's stature and experience at that point in his career should've known when it was appropriate to take over. Just to be a competitor, and be a GOAT level talent like Wilt and literally not take one shot over an entire half of a razor thin Game 7 against your biggest rival, or after dropping 45 to not want to do the same thing against an injured opponent in Game 7 of the Finals, yes, that's inconceivable to me. That shows either a lack of situational awareness on his part, or he frankly didn't have the competitive streak the other GOAT level plyers did. You can correctly pin the blame on his coach for the end of Game 7 in '69, but he should've frankly told his teammates to look for him more, or take on the burden of increasing his scoring with his teams season on the line in the other critical games they lost during his Russell transition.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s really very simple. He shot less in the playoffs as his career went on because he was convinced(largely by coaching and some by results) that was how to win. We wonder why he didn’t shoot in some games and ignore that the GOAT scorer finally knocked off Boston and won the title only taking 6 and 8 shots in two 10 point nights in the finals. Won both games. Dude played 53 minutes one game had just 16 points but 33 rebounds, 10 assists, and like 13 blocks. He’s out there winning rings putting up quadruple doubles when he could easily average 50. Why would he assume he should just start back scoring?


And after that he gets a coach who cusses him out in the paper and tells him he needs to play in the high post to get out of everyone’s way. He didn’t like bigs. And not just wilt. After he was fired by the lakers he was on the Jazz and made them give up Moses Malone for a pick and traded picks to the lakers to get Gail Goodrich. Know who the pick ended up being? Magic Johnson.

But he just had to have one of his good shooting guards he loved more than Wilt(or apparently young Moses Malone).

The guy played games with the team and the press and used West and Baylor against Wilt. Used their need to score as justification to get Wilt out of the way. Changed his whole play style but as he embraced it and stuck with it…team got better. But any time they lost the media and fans would complain he wasn’t scoring and ignore he didn’t score when they won either. These same arguments happened then:




" The Lakers do not often make 100 points now. "Defense is the thing we're really living on," van Breda Kolff admits, and Chamberlain has been superb, sometimes even awesome, on defense. In a recent game on national television he blocked 23 shots against Phoenix.

Fans of Chamberlain point out that he is being criticized for doing the same thing that has brought glory to Russell—concentrating on defense and going easy on offense. Russell, however, has always triggered the Boston attack with his outlet passes. Chamberlain forces the Lakers to play his style—and then, when he fails to shoot, he is not being Wilt Chamberlain.




When he scored and lost he was a ball hog. When he played naturally(other than obviously wanting a lot of assists) they finally won a title. When he kept playing that way and lost people wondered why as if it wasn’t the only way that ever worked. Then he goes to the lakers and is asked to play in the high post like a wing of that time. But it was his most successful extended run.

Feels to me like he just adjusted each time and stuck to what he was asked to do. I don’t know that he ever just played how he would minus outside factors. But he got hated no matter how he played.

He got booed scoring 70, having a 15 point quadruple double, or getting 70% shooting, rebounding his ass off, playing man to man D while still shutting down the lane and winning every game for 3 months and the title.

He got booed no matter what. Oddly enough one of his only road ovations was when he held Kareem to like 12-33 shooting in the playoffs on the way to the ring and fans appreciated his old man efforts and selflessness.

Must have felt good. But since he didn’t score shit that series and instead focused on stopping peak Kareem and winning his performance makes him look worse to fans now even as people finally understood what he was trying to do then.

He really was in a hard to win situation. He was gonna get mocked no matter what. Including winning because both times he won he utterly sacrificed his scoring to do so and all these years later his points per game average is the only thing people want to talk about.

[Carbine]

One thing I know about Blaze, he loves Wilt. Defends him to the death with poetic posts but the reality is what others have been saying. He won less than he should hav and a large part of that is due to him.

[Kblaze8855]

Wilt like everyone else I’m told I love or hate depending entirely on the person talking. I was told I hated him recently because I didn’t like how he proved he could do things like totally stop opposing centers from scoring but only do it long enough for them to learn a lesson and then go back to normal. He talked about going easy on some tall players who weren’t that good because the things he could do(make them look clumsy and unskilled) made them all look bad.

He was definitely full of himself and cared too much what people thought…but he’s also the victim of some absolute bullshit criticism. And these days it’s mostly by people who obviously aren’t even interested in what’s true.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen it claimed he choked that game 7 he was literally benched and cussed out by his coach who wanted to win without him out of spite. I’ve seen him clowned for his lack of aggression on a knee that was blown out and repaired(if that’s what we call the medical procedures of 50 years ago) that he missed the whole year for and returned for the playoffs. And I’ve seen the same people say 95 doesn’t count for Jordan because he only had a few week warmup. Wilt missed the season and returned 6 days before the playoffs.

Dude is called a loser while Russell is praised for selfless leadership and winning. He changes to that style…has the two best records of all time…Russell himself says he’s better at it than he was himself. But when he doesn’t score it’s asked…why isn’t he playing like he used to? You know…the way we laughed at.

He’s just a weird combo of criticism and ignorance. I criticize a lot of people, but I’ll look into the circumstances first. This guy just gets hated no matter what. I’ve literally read people on here laughing about how little he scored during championship runs he’s putting up near quadruple double series. How? There was an argument about his 22-24 whatever playoffs they won the title. Really…what are we doing?

He should have won more and he should have scored more in the playoffs when he lost while scoring and won more than anyone ever had by not scoring? You don’t see how he would come away from that wondering what the hell the public wanted?

[dankok8]

kblaze you made some good points here but Wilt still lacked killer instinct. He was poor and mostly passive offensively in three consecutive Game 7's in 1968, 1969 and 1970. That's not a good look.

As for the OP, Wilt was almost certainly the most effective playing for Hannum in 1964 and then 1967 and 1968. And he did have a very good playoff run in 1965 as well.

[L.Kizzle]

He literally scores less in every post season vs his regular season.

Every. Single. Year.

Sometimes by a wide margin. That is absolutely fair critique of him.
Do you think he was gonna avg 50 in the playoffs too?

[SouBeachTalents]

Do you think he was gonna avg 50 in the playoffs too?
What kind of stupid response is this :lol I don't think it's unreasonable to expect one of the greatest players ever to match his regular season scoring average a single time in the playoffs, especially in years he was averaging 25 or less a game.

[L.Kizzle]

What kind of stupid response is this :lol I don't think it's unreasonable to expect one of the greatest players ever to match his regular season scoring average a single time in the playoffs, especially in years he was averaging 25 or less a game.

He avg 50 ppg in 1962. His playoff high was 56 that year. He had four 40+ playoff games that season.

[1987_Lakers]

Wilt vs Russell. Who was the better player year by year?

1960: Russell
1961: Russell
1962: Russell
1963: Russell
1964: Wilt
1965: Russell
1966: Wilt
1967: Wilt
1968: Wilt
1969: Russell (Wilt was probably better at this point, but can't ignore the epic Finals loss)

[Kblaze8855]

What kind of stupid response is this :lol I don't think it's unreasonable to expect one of the greatest players ever to match his regular season scoring average a single time in the playoffs, especially in years he was averaging 25 or less a game.

There is a pretty significant difference between couldnt and didn’t. When you play an average of 47 minutes a game and in 9 of the 17 games you take 5 shots or less….

Did you fail to score…or did you choose not to? There’s a game he took 2 shots…but held the opposing hall of fame big to 2-13 shooting, had 25 rebounds, and blocked a dozen shots. He was a plus 56(not a typo…plus 56).

He scored less that game(12) than he averaged in the regular season(14).

Does that game make his career worse because it adds to the “Scored less in the playoffs” narrative?

you’re judging someone who essentially decided to be a better version of Ben Wallace for his ppg. He was a circus act early scoring for headlines not playing serious playoff ball. He didn’t see the playoffs as time to score more he saw it as the time to play serious defense, rebound, and do the things he actually took pride in. All the stores you hear about him getting mad and taking over even if you go into post career pick up games with Magic Johnson in the 80s it’s always “He just blocked everything the rest of the day”. It’s never “He scored 30 straight”.

You can fault that approach because he didn’t win more even though the teams beating him might literally have eight Hall of Famers(6 or so legit). But it’s hard to deny what the approach was or question how the result was less scoring. He didn’t give a shit about scoring. He was just so unstoppable his statistics suggested he did. What he considered serious basketball was shutting down the lane and getting every rebound. He might be wrong, but we should at least start there if we want to know why he did what he did in the playoffs.

[SouBeachTalents]

There is a pretty significant difference between couldnt and didn’t. When you play an average of 47 minutes a game and in 9 of the 17 games you take 5 shots or less….

Did you fail to score…or did you choose not to? There’s a game he took 2 shots…but held the opposing hall of fame big to 2-13 shooting, had 25 rebounds, and blocked a dozen shots. He was a plus 56(not a typo…plus 56).

He scored less that game(12) than he averaged in the regular season(14).

Does that game make his career worse because it adds to the “Scored less in the playoffs” narrative?

you’re judging someone who essentially decided to be a better version of Ben Wallace for his ppg. He was a circus act early scoring for headlines not playing serious playoff ball. He didn’t see the playoffs as time to score more he saw it as the time to play serious defense, rebound, and do the things he actually took pride in. All the stores you hear about him getting mad and taking over even if you go into post Korea pick up games with Magic Johnson in the 80s it’s always “He just blocked everything the rest of the day”. It’s never “He scored 30 straight”.

You can fault that approach because he didn’t win more even though the teams beating him might literally have eight Hall of Famers(6 or so legit). But it’s hard to deny what the approach was or question how the result was less scoring. He didn’t give a shit about scoring. He was just so unstoppable his statistics suggested he did. What he considered serious basketball was shutting down the lane and getting every rebound. He might be wrong, but we should at least start there if we want to know why he did what he did in the playoffs.
But this is my entire point. He wasn't Ben Wallace, he was Wilt fcking Chamberlain :lol And the fact he frankly won FAR less than he should have, while averaging less ppg than he was scoring even in his Russell stage, and refusing to take shots even when his teams badly needed scoring in championship deciding games, is my entire reason for criticizing him.

I have no issue with him deciding to take on less of a scoring role, take on the Russell role of being a defensive anchor and dominating the boards, especially if it's a successful strategy. But as I illustrated in my previous posts, the story often ended with him leaving points on the board when his team was BARELY losing 7 game series that decided the championship.

I will never be able to rationalize someone with Wilt's talents taking zero shot attempts in the 2nd half of a Game 7, scoring nearly 10 less ppg in the Finals than he did in the regular season, then after going off for 45 in a win, not even attempting to replicate the same performance against a gimpy opponent in Game 7 of the Finals. This is where you and I just fundamentally disagree on this topic. The lack of scoring matters when everyone knows he's capable of more, and he just flat out accepted a passive role, even more passive than usual, in the biggest moments of the season when just a little bit more scoring from him could have made all the difference.

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t know if he should have won far more. I guess it depends on how you feel about losing to 8 hall of famers when you have 3….or losing while not being allowed to play…or losing to 6 hall of famers when your two best players are on their last legs. He goes out there fresh off a season ending injury and plays the Knicks who had 5 all stars(3 prime hall of famers) OTHER than Reed. He’s got West(great) and 17ppg Baylor in name only who needed to retire. I don’t think it would be considered as much of an upset these days. It was a true superteam vs a top heavy one with 2 injured stars in the trio.

He lost a couple head scratchers but really…nobody but the Celtics should have won for like 7-8 years at least. Bill Russell being the living embodiment of victory gave them a few extra but that team wasn’t supposed to lose at all for a long ass time.

I agree that being Ben Wallace isn’t ideal when you can be both almost Ben Wallace and still score 25-30 but he really was under back to back to back coaches who did not want that old scoring wilt. Even the coach he loved told him that isn’t how you win. He basically tried to be Bill Russell but he didn’t have that extra 4-5 stars that make it up when you don’t score. He also wasn’t loved and entirely supported by the team like Bill.

It’s one reason I rank Bill higher. He was motivating. A force of nature people wanted to play harder to not let down. Wilt took criticism so personally he would openly wonder why his teammates didn’t get their fair share. And he wasn’t wrong…but you don’t say it.

Im not calling the guy perfect. I’m saying…I feel like we shouldn’t keep talking about a declined playoff ppg when dude would play every second of 3 series in a row and shoot less per minute than Ben Wallace or Mutombo did at times. Criticizing his approach is more fair than the statistical result when you know he was flat out deciding scoring wasn’t the priority in the playoffs. He’d take 2 shots in 47 minutes because he didn’t care about scoring not because he couldn’t? We can agree about that right?

[Carbine]

There is a lot of evidence to concretely support that the Celtics dynasty wasn't some over the top, mega talented team in relation to their competition.

Their margin of victory in a great number of title runs was so small. They weren't beating everyone by 20 plus. It was a hard earned victory most of the time.

[Kblaze8855]

The 2018 Warriors needing to claw back to win vs Harden and role players with Chris Paul hurt doesn’t mean they weren’t over the top talented compared to their competition. It means talent isn’t everything . And of course it isn’t. But it’s nice.

It’s hard to beat 6 hall of famers when your 2-5th scorers shoot 35, 38, and 33 percent. You get 46/34. Your two co stars shoot 6/18 and 6/17. It’s hard to beat 7 hall of famers when your 42/32 is backed up by the second option going 2/21 and your other 3 scoring shooting 23/37/38 percent.

As I said he wasn’t perfect….he missed free throws, he wasn’t the easiest to get along with, and he wouldn’t choose his spots well. But he wasn’t generally out there getting his ass kicked. A lot of the close losses were only close to begin with because he eliminated the paint the whole game.

He wasn’t out there with a bunch of high end legends in their primes. He was losing to teams of prime superstars and all stars with mostly washed names. Jerry was his prime elite guy and 3 years in a row they had one of their big 3 hurt in the playoffs.

He just didn’t have as many teams that should have won as people think.

More than 2?

Yea. That’s fair. But he shouldn’t have won some sack of rings or anything.

[Carbine]

They were hall of famers because of the winning. I'm sure every single one of them didn't or doesn't care about that fact but when you just put a blanket statement like that it is misleading as you know damn well they weren't HOF talents besides a couple of them.

[Kblaze8855]

I do know which is why I said eight Hall of Famer’s and six legitimate. KC Jones is in the Hall of Fame because he won 10 titles all of them with Bill Russell even two in college with him. He’s what I call a hall of famer but not one of the legit ones. Wilt at the time in question would have 1 legit hall hall of famer and even he was washed. Then you toss in a pioneer one like how Russell had Satch Sanders in who is in the hall but not a star.

Neither of them had what I’d call bad teams but one had a lot more serious stars not just someone who snuck in. And it’s true even of the Knicks. You can Google some names on the Lakers and talk about them technically having been stars at some point but it’s not real hall of fame guys. Knicks had 6 hall of famers the oldest of them being 32 and the worst of them an all star that very season. Wilt 36, West 34 and would only play 31 more games in his career, and the young star was Goodrich who ho I won’t badmouth but he wasn’t anything the Knicks didn’t have plenty of.

Theres a lot of years like that where you might say the biggest names were on Wilts team but the best team…was who beat them.

and then, of course they were years where nobody on the other team should beat a team that has Wilt Chamberlain. It almost looks like a high school matchup where you wonder how somebody like Zion Williamson can ever lose a game in high school. But experience tells us that isn’t how it works. If you have 40 and 30 and your other guy shoots five of 21 a bunch of random’s might win.

Im not saying you’re wrong to think he should have won more. I’m saying I don’t think he was realistically supposed to win some huge number of rings. Now if he got to the lakers when Baylor was healthy and young?

Whole other story. The real wilt West and Baylor should split the 60s with the Celtics. That would’ve been reasonable to expect. As it is?

I don’t know. Maybe he should have 4? Just try to score in 68 and 70? I really can’t blame him for losing a game seven when his coach would rather lose then win with him on the floor. I can settle with four. Maybe he should have four.

[Axe]

He's a great player on his own who became known as a renowned stat machine bt. Just don't factor in winning because that's one department he really didn't excel at.

But regardless, there's a braindead casual who will be saying that he's still at top 3 all-time tho. ;)

[Lebron23]

Wish Wilt was mentally tough.