Is there evidence that MJ's teams underachieved their rosters?

[3ba11]

.
* 1985 - Bulls make playoffs

* 1986 - Bulls are 9-9 with MJ, which elevates a 21-42 team to the 8 seed

* 1987 - the front office cleans house, so the 87' cast is much worse than the 85' cast, yet Jordan still wins 40 games (entering his prime).

* 1988 - prime Jordan wins 50 games with no cast

* 1989 - prime Jordan nearly makes Finals with no cast

* 1990-1998 - prime Jordan never loses 3 games in a row (632 games)


Now what about Lebron - is there evidence that his teams underachieved their rosters?

In 2019, he activated playoff mode but was lottery with Ingram/Kuzma.. .. In 2021, he lost in the 1st Round with the preseason favorite.. In 2022, he has the worst team in the league with 5 top 75 players (goat underachievement and worst-ever fit/skill deficit).. In 2023, he was swept by an inferior roster and with a teammate getting 26.8 ppg as 2nd scoring leader of Lakers (it's rare to lose that way).

In 2005, he missed the playoffs with an all-star teammate... In 2007 and 2008, he was locked up with 36% shooting... In 2009 and 2010, he had massive upset that required teaming up with conference rivals to win the conference.. In 2011, we saw the goat choke. .. In 2014, the Heat only won 54 games as the preseason favorite, so they were underdogs to 37-year old Duncan.. In 2017, the Cavs won 53 games with prime Kyrie/Love, so the Finals was considered a mismatch instead of a clash of super-teams like the 80's.

[HylianNightmare]

Lenotthatgood

[Real Men Wear Green]

Jordan sucks.

[ShawkFactory]

Jesus Christ

[Wally450]

There's evidence that Pippen was a huge part of both threepeats.

[SouBeachTalents]

Have y'all seen the new songs AI has been coming up with? Credit to ISB for pointing this out earlier. The Sinatra ones are the best.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7SQ4uf9GmA&ab_channel=LaceEditing

[Full Court]

Three-peating twice is underachieving.

Now if Jordan had led a superteam to the lottery, that would have been MASSIVE underachievement.

If he had led the the '96 Bulls to get swept before getting to the finals that would have been an EPIC underachievement.

Didn't happen though.

And yes, Pippen was an important part of both three peats.

[Axe]

Jordan sucks.
:roll:

[tpols]

Have y'all seen the new songs AI has been coming up with? Credit to ISB for pointing this out earlier. The Sinatra ones are the best.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7SQ4uf9GmA&ab_channel=LaceEditing

This one is a GOAT Sinatra biggie mix up.


https://youtu.be/TOWNHoBRxK4

[Baller234]

There's evidence that Pippen was a huge part of both threepeats.

I think MJ would have dominated with any other star player you put alongside him.

If you take any of the Bulls finals matchups and trade MJ for the other team's best player, the team with MJ is still probably going to win all of those series.

[ELITEpower23]

Um, he only made six Finals for his entire career...

----
Tier A: Double digit GOATS

Russell made 12
Bron made 10
Kareem made 10
----
Tier B
West made 9
Magic made 9
----
Tier C

Fisher made 8
----
Tier D

Curry made 7
Kobe made 7
---
Tier F: Yikes
Jordan made 6
Wilt made 6

[Full Court]

Um, he only made six Finals for his entire career...

----
Tier A: Double digit GOATS

Russell made 12
Bron made 10
Kareem made 10
----
Tier B
West made 9
Magic made 9
----
Tier C

Fisher made 8
----
Tier D

Curry made 7
Kobe made 7
---
Tier F: Yikes
Jordan made 6
Wilt made 6

How low do you have to set the bar as a Bronie fluffer to deem the most important thing in rankings to be finals APPEARANCES.

:roll:

Utter desperation.

[Axe]

Um, he only made six Finals for his entire career...

----
Tier A: Double digit GOATS

Russell made 12
Bron made 10
Kareem made 10
----
Tier B
West made 9
Magic made 9
----
Tier C

Fisher made 8
----
Tier D

Curry made 7
Kobe made 7
---
Tier F: Yikes
Jordan made 6
Wilt made 6
Very interesting slick.

[sdot_thadon]

I mean if you really want to knit pick, look at the 89 ECF, had a chance to make his 1st finals 2 years sooner, had probably the worst big Game performance of his career in game 5 and had to wait 2 more seasons for an "opportunity".

[Axe]

I mean if you really want to knit pick, look at the 89 ECF, had a chance to make his 1st finals 2 years sooner, had probably the worst big Game performance of his career in game 5 and had to wait 2 more seasons for an "opportunity".
Was bodybagged by thomas and the bad boy pistons in the pistons too until flagrant foul became effective in the early 90s. :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

Was bodybagged by thomas and the bad boy pistons in the pistons too until flagrant foul became effective in the early 90s. :confusedshrug:

Yeah the reason "opportunity" was in quotes. They campaigned in the media agaisnt Detroit, and for good reason. Still must be acknowledged that they never beat them on the terms the other great teams had to beat them on because that's the game we're playing around here.

[GrayGoat]

Didn’t they lose to Orlando Shaq?

[John8204]

Jordan fanboys are weirdo's

notice no mention of Jordan with the Wizards were he took the number 1 draft and a 30PPG player and ruined both of their careers.

[Axe]

Yeah the reason "opportunity" was in quotes. They campaigned in the media agaisnt Detroit, and for good reason. Still must be acknowledged that they never beat them on the terms the other great teams had to beat them on because that's the game we're playing around here.
Very true. :roll:

Braindead casuals here would have a hard time acknowledging that tho.

[hateraid]

So remove Jordan in the middle of the championship runs and their team manages to be a cemnference contender being replaced by Pete Myers? Over achieved my ass

[hateraid]

Jordan fanboys are weirdo's

notice no mention of Jordan with the Wizards were he took the number 1 draft and a 30PPG player and ruined both of their careers.

Selective memory.

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan fanboys are weirdo's

notice no mention of Jordan with the Wizards were he took the number 1 draft and a 30PPG player and ruined both of their careers.

Hey, you cut that out! Those years didn't happen and can't be referenced at all for any reason . They don't count. Oh and 95 too while we're at it.

[3ba11]

I mean if you really want to knit pick, look at the 89 ECF, had a chance to make his 1st finals 2 years sooner, had probably the worst big Game performance of his career in game 5 and had to wait 2 more seasons for an "opportunity".


Jordan executed historic upsets in the first 2 rounds of the 89' Playoffs to make the ECF, so he didn't underachieve his roster because they were expected to lose in the 1st Round.

Jordan had a rookie cast, so they were expected to get destroyed in the 1st Round by the #1 SRS Cavs and their 3 perennial all-stars (plus Harper averaged 20/5/5).

[Axe]

1-9

[3ba11]

1-9


1-9 is better than Lebron's teams in 04' and 05', so Lebron had crappier teams in his early years despite all-star teammates, while also doing crappier with super-teams (losing with super-teams by more than Jordan lost with 8 seeds).




1-9


Help needed to win 40 games

LEBRON...... all-star center
JORDAN...... nothing


Help needed to win 50 games

LEBRON...... 2x all-star center..... HOF coach.... 22/5/5 acquisition
JORDAN...... nothing

[Axe]

No pip?

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan executed historic upsets in the first 2 rounds of the 89' Playoffs to make the ECF, so he didn't underachieve his roster because they were expected to lose in the 1st Round.

Jordan had a rookie cast, so they were expected to get destroyed in the 1st Round by the #1 SRS Cavs and their 3 perennial all-stars (plus Harper averaged 20/5/5).

He was there why not win? Lebron had that exact same scenario in 07 down to being in a 2-2 series against his version of the Pistons. We know what happened there, historic atg game to take his team where he had no business being that young. Mike?

[3ba11]

He was there why not win? Lebron had that exact same scenario in 07 down to being in a 2-2 series against his version of the Pistons. We know what happened there, historic atg game to take his team where he had no business being that young. Mike?


By getting upset wins in the 1st two series, this confirms that MJ didn't underachieve the team's talent.

Otoh, we see Lebron lose as the favorite many times, or his super-teams get swept or beaten by record amount despite even odds or favorite status.. Or he loses with the preseason favorite all the time, or falls to underdog.. These things are the definition of underachieving the on-paper talent or expectation, and they only happened to Lebron, never MJ.

And Lebron's version of the Pistons was equivalent to the 90' Sixers or 89' Knicks based on any metric - MJ averaged 40-45 against that caliber, while Lebron wet the bed in the closeout and was bailed out by Boobie (31 points and complete takeover of the 4th).

Lebron only needed 25 on 45% against the Pistons or the Eastern Playoffs, which would be the worst series of Jordan's career - this clearly demonstrates the weakness of that conference - the 00's East is the only conference in history that was won by multiple 1-star teams (AI, Kidd, Kidd, Lebron, Dwight).. All these guys won the conference by playing worse than MJ ever did.. Ultimately, Lebron couldn't win the East with homecourt and was a 1-trick pony like Iverson or Dwight until the "decision" to stack the deck (dilute conference and consolidate power on 1 team).

[sdot_thadon]

By getting upset wins in the 1st two series, this confirms that MJ didn't underachieve the team's talent.

Otoh, we see Lebron lose as the favorite many times, or his super-teams get swept or beaten by record amount despite even odds or favorite status.. Or he loses with the preseason favorite all the time, or falls to underdog.. These things are the definition of underachieving the on-paper talent or expectation, and they only happened to Lebron, never MJ.

And Lebron's version of the Pistons was equivalent to the 90' Sixers or 89' Knicks based on any metric - MJ averaged 40-45 against that caliber, while Lebron wet the bed in the closeout and was bailed out by Boobie (31 points and complete takeover of the 4th).

Lebron only needed 25 on 45% against the Pistons or the Eastern Playoffs, which would be the worst series of Jordan's career - this clearly demonstrates the weakness of that conference - the 00's East is the only conference in history that was won by multiple 1-star teams (AI, Kidd, Kidd, Lebron, Dwight).. All these guys won the conference by playing worse than MJ ever did.. Ultimately, Lebron couldn't win the East with homecourt and was a 1-trick pony like Iverson or Dwight until the "decision" to stack the deck (dilute conference and consolidate power on 1 team).

All that and can't address why Mj couldn't have a big game 5 agaisnt the Pistons to put them on their heels.

[3ba11]

All that and can't address why Mj couldn't have a big game 5 agaisnt the Pistons to put them on their heels.


Game 5 has nothing to do with whether MJ underachieved the roster or not - the roster overachieved with upset wins in the 1st two rounds and also winning 2 games against Detroit while everyone else was swept.

And who is better at losing 2-1 leads? MJ or Lebron?

The biggest reason that Cavs lost the 2010 ECSF is because Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games to lose a 2-1 lead as a big favorite.. His bed-wetting also lost 2-1 leads n 2011 and 2021.. He also choked in the Game 4 OT that swung the 2009 ECF while turning into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time (12 TO's per 48 minutes of clutch-time).. What team could win with their star player turning into a 12 TO per game player in the 4th?

So Lebron has far more situations where he lacked complete dominance and these situations weren't where his team was completely overmatched like the 89' Bulls - they occurred when his team was favored in the series itself (2009-2011) or preseason (2021) or numerous other occasions where he underachieved his roster expectation.

[And1AllDay]

Um, he only made six Finals for his entire career...

----
Tier A: Double digit GOATS

Russell made 12
Bron made 10
Kareem made 10
----
Tier B
West made 9
Magic made 9
----
Tier C

Fisher made 8
----
Tier D

Curry made 7
Kobe made 7
---
Tier F: Yikes
Jordan made 6
Wilt made 6

issa body bag

no response ...op is ded

[Full Court]

How low do you have to set the bar as a Bronie fluffer to deem the most important thing in rankings to be finals APPEARANCES.

:roll:

Utter desperation.


issa body bag

no response ...op is ded

See above quote. :lol

Nice try.

[And1AllDay]

op?

Um, he only made six Finals for his entire career...

----
Tier A: Double digit GOATS

Russell made 12
Bron made 10
Kareem made 10
----
Tier B

West made 9
Magic made 9

----

Tier C

Fisher made 8

----

Tier D

Curry made 7
Kobe made 7

---

Tier F: Yikes

Jordan made 6
Wilt made 6