Swap Russel for Wilt for every team of their careers

[warriorfan]

What are the results?

[1987_Lakers]

Russell*

[Full Court]

They both probably end up with the same number of rings that they have now. That's why I rank Russell ahead of Wilt.

[1987_Lakers]

They both probably end up with the same number of rings that they have now. That's why I rank Russell ahead of Wilt.

Russell is not winning 11 rings with the cast Wilt had in the first half of his career.

[warriorfan]

Russell and Wilt is one of the most interesting rivalries and comparisons

Wilt was the ultimate box score machine with questionable intangibles

Russell was an underwhelming box score guy with arguably the greatest intangibles ever

Both top tier athletes, wilt beating him out obviously as he’s probably the goat basketball athlete, or arguably any athlete ever. Yet in a lot of ways polar opposites of each other

One universally celebrated, one viewed with much skepticism and criticism

I think the consensus takes on them are fairly accurate in most cases, yet are overstated

Not trying to steer this into a Lebron thread but it’s interesting how a lot of guys big on LeBron are some of the biggest Wilt doubters.

LeBron and Wilt were both two of the top 4 basketball athletes ever (Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, LeBron), both big time stat stuffers, both have questionable resumes in terms of winning, LeBron seems to get the benefit of the doubt in terms of running into dynasties and the “not enough help” thing, while Wilt doesn’t get granted the same luxury.

[Wardell Curry]

LeBron and Wilt were both two of the top 4 basketball athletes ever (Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, LeBron), both big time stat stuffers, both have questionable resumes in terms of winning, LeBron seems to get the benefit of the doubt in terms of running into dynasties and the “not enough help” thing, while Wilt doesn’t get granted the same luxury.

They are similar in that regard. The problem with both of them is, extrapolating on Russell's very own words, they distorted their own team's offenses. When a player is dominating the ball and or shot attempts, it takes away from your teammates engagement levels. And this particularly matters on the offensive side of the ball because most basketball players have a psychological weakness of needing to be involved in the offense and needing to handle the ball a lot in order to get them to provide maximum effort. We are only human, after all.

Wilt shot a lot. LeBron holds the ball a lot. Still both top 10 players of all time despite it. Unbelievable athletic talents and LeBron's eidetic memory is the other thing that has made him great.

[FultzNationRISE]

A halfway decent team always supersedes an individual without a decent team (assuming Lebron isnt involved). Thats just the nature of any team sport, even basketball. When I say all the time I mean in the long run, not necessarily in a single game or small sample size.

That doesnt mean youll get the exact same result if you swap two players. Individuals make an impact on the team. But the overall pattern in this case would still be Boston is a dominant team, Philly is hit and miss. Switching stars could change the details of each team’s fortunes, but it’s very unlikely the difference is dramatic. The 5-10 “other guys” on a given team have a much bigger impact on the outcome than the media would have you believe.

[L.Kizzle]

Russell is not winning 11 rings with the cast Wilt had in the first half of his career.
I mean, Wilt was playing with guys like Paul Arizin, Guy Rogers early on. Hall of Famers. I gotta see who else was there. Tom Gola, Terry Dischinger. All are HoF'ers besides Terry I think.
This is just his Warriors in Phila.

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron and Wilt were both two of the top 4 basketball athletes ever (Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, LeBron), both big time stat stuffers, both have questionable resumes in terms of winning, LeBron seems to get the benefit of the doubt in terms of running into dynasties and the “not enough help” thing, while Wilt doesn’t get granted the same luxury.

Only difference is besides 2011, LeBron actually lost to teams who were better. And imagine shitting on someone for "only" winning 4 rings. :oldlol:

Wilt blew a 3-1 lead against the Celtics in '68 (First ever blown 3-1 lead)
Lost to a worse Celtics team in '69
Lost to a Knicks team with one legged Willis Reed in '70

Three straight years where he lost when he should have won. Then you have the metrics that show Wilt wasn't nearly as impactful as LeBron was to his team. LeBron's teams fell apart once he left them, The Sixers won 55 games without Wilt in 1969 and their offense saw no drop off whatsoever, The Lakers didn't really see any improvements when they traded for him, their offense actually regressed a little. Prime Wilt averaging 45 ppg led his team to a 31-49 record, we never saw a prime LeBron lead his team to such a record, regardless of supporting cast.

There is also the factor that LeBron has twice the rings of Wilt despite playing in a league that had 30 teams compared to Wilt's league which only had 8-14 teams.

[Carbine]

As long as Russell wins 3 titles in this alternate universe, he's better than Wilt.

[Axe]

Only difference is besides 2011, LeBron actually lost to teams who were better. And imagine shitting on someone for "only" winning 4 rings. :oldlol:

Wilt blew a 3-1 lead against the Celtics in '68 (First ever blown 3-1 lead)
Lost to a worse Celtics team in '69
Lost to a Knicks team with one legged Willis Reed in '70

Three straight years where he lost when he should have won. Then you have the metrics that show Wilt wasn't nearly as impactful as LeBron was to his team. LeBron's teams fell apart once he left them, The Sixers won 55 games without Wilt in 1969 and their offense saw no drop off whatsoever, The Lakers didn't really see any improvements when they traded for him, their offense actually regressed a little. Prime Wilt averaging 45 ppg led his team to a 31-49 record, we never saw a prime LeBron lead his team to such a record, regardless of supporting cast.

There is also the factor that LeBron has twice the rings of Wilt despite playing in a league that had 30 teams compared to Wilt's league which only had 8-14 teams.
:applause:

[John8204]

I mean, Wilt was playing with guys like Paul Arizin, Guy Rogers early on. Hall of Famers. I gotta see who else was there. Tom Gola, Terry Dischinger. All are HoF'ers besides Terry I think.
This is just his Warriors in Phila.

Paul Arizin was one of those players that was very good and very underrated


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tA6f2L74qk

He would have complimented Bill Russell very well...now would that have been enough to beat Sharrman, Cousey, KC Jones, Sam Jones, and Hondo with Wilt...I don't think so.

[coastalmarker99]

He was told to shoot and score as much as possible by McGuire, Feerick, Gottlieb. People criticize Wilt endlessly for scoring/shooting too much, but he was working under inept, terrible coaching for his first several years in the league:

"McGuire met Chamberlain for the first time at the Coco Inn, near the Warriors training camp in Hershey, Pennsylvania.

He told Chamberlain that he was supposed to be tough to coach, but that that was probably because Wilt had never had a coach who treated him like a man. McGuire pointed out that he, McGuire, had always been a winner and said that if Chamberlain listened to him and they worked together, it would be possible to beat Boston.

Chamberlain wanted to believe McGuire, but he thought Boston was unbeatable It simply had too many good players.

McGuire said it was true that Boston was better than Philadelphia when Chamberlain was scoring thirty-seven or thirty-eight points a game.

But, if he scored fifty points a game, McGuire said, the Warriors could beat Boston. “

“Fifty?” Chamberlain protested. “Nobody can average fifty a game in this league.”

McGuire told Chamberlain he could do it. The other players wouldn’t be happy, he said, and he, McGuire, was going to have to put up with a lot of bitching, but that was his problem. He would have to convince them that the only way they could win was with Chamberlain shooting constantly.

In McGuire’s view, Chamberlain wasn’t being selfish in taking so many shots. He just had the highest shooting percentage on the team.

It made more sense to have your 50-percent shooter taking the shot than it did your 40-percent shooter, which meant that if one of Wilt’s teammates with a poorer shooting percentage did not pass to Wilt,[b] that man was not acting in the team’s interest.

“I have two goals,” McGuire told Chamberlain.

“I hope we win the championship. And I hope you break every record in the book.”

So we must ask ourselves, how great and properly oriented can a young player be that has godawful coaching and management, works in a terrible offensive structure/system, on a team with very poor cohesion and (usually) very poor morale?

All the while, Bill Russell was being treated like a proxy son and leader by the greatest coach/executive of that era (and, likely, in history).

Wilt then gets great coaching that uses him properly, great teammates, and then (in his old age, especially for that era), suddenly wins .718 of his games during the entire second half of his career. His teams set the record for wins twice (two *different* teams, no less).

Coaches and GMs who either overtly disliked/hated and/or totally mismanaged Wilt.

-Neil Johnston
-Ed Gottlieb
-Frank McGuire
-Bob Feerick
-Dolph Schayes


Coaches who understood him well treated him well, and used him properly/to his full potential:

-Alex Hannum
-Bill Sharman

In 14 years he only had two coaches that ever understood him, and that he could count on.

That's only 6 of his 14 seasons.

Here are his team’s records for 4 of those years:

1. 68-13 (set all time record for wins)
2. 62-20
3. 69-13 (set new all time record for wins, different team)
4..60-22

That's a .79.3 winning percentage for 4 seasons on two different franchises!!!!

[coastalmarker99]

Look at the All-NBA players that Russell played with compared to Wilt in the years they shared in the NBA as it is not even close.

1959 3 1st team All NBA players Russell, Cousy, and Sharman...when else has that ever happened?

1960 Cousy 1st team All NBA, Russell, Sharman 2nd team

1961 Cousy 1st team All NBA, Russell, Heinsohn 2nd team

1962 Cousy, Russell, Heinsohn 2nd team All NBA...

4 Celtics made the All-Star Team Cousy, Russell, Heinsohn, and Jones

1963 Russell 1st team All NBA, Cousy, Heinsohn 2nd team...Havlicek Rookie team

1964 Havlicek, Russell, Heinsohn All NBA 2nd team.... Sam Jones also made the All-Star team

1965 Russell 1st team, Sam Jones 2nd team

1966 Russell, Jones, Havlicek All NBA 2nd team

1967 Russell, Jones All NBA 2nd team

1968 Russell, Havlicek All NBA 2nd team

1969 Havlicek All NBA 2nd team


Russell fans claim that the Celtics' 7-1 PO record shows Russell dominated and is better than Wilt as a player all time.

Wilt fans say he dominated Russell individually but that Russell”s teammates outplayed Wilt’s.

This comment looks at the actual record, series by series and game by game and decides which side is right or not in their arguments.

I examined all 49 PO games. I tracked data in four categories: TS%, Pts, Reb, Ast.

The overall data showed this:

PTS: Wilt: 43-6 (Wilt had more points than BR in 43 games vs. 6 games for Russ.)

REB: Wilt: 32-18 (1 tie)

AST: BR: 27-15 (7 ties)

TS%: Wilt: 32-17

I figured out Russ/Wilt’s teammates’ data by subtracting Russ/Wilt’s stats from team stats.

PTS: BR's teammates: 40-9 (BR teammates had more points than Wilt's in 40 of those games, vs. 9 for Wilt's mates.)

REB: BR teammates, 33-15 (1 tie)

AST: BR teammates: 28-16-5

TS%: BR teammates, 26-23

Also, finally, we know that Wilt and Russell played H2H in 8 PO series.

But who led in each category:

PTS: 8-0 Wilt

REB: 8-0 Wilt

AST: 6-2 Russell

TS%: 8-0 Wilt

Teammates:

PTS: 8-0 Russell's teammates

REB: 7-1 Russell's

AST: 5-3 Russell's

TS%: 5-3 Russell's

Therefore we see with the data that Wilt bested Russ in 26 of 32 (81%) categories over 8 PO series.

And that Russell”s 11 teammates bested Wilt's 11 teammates in 25 of 32 (78%)categories over 8 PO series

[coastalmarker99]

The best way to exemplify Wilt's commitment to winning is through him changing his playstyle for coaches several times:

1964: Was asked to pass and focus on defense under Alex Hannum.
1967: Was asked to pass more than ever and focus on defense under Alex Hannum.
1969: Was asked to be a role player under van Breda Kolff.
1972: Was asked to practice and play similarly to Bill Russell under Bill Sharman.

When Bill Sharman joined the Lakers in 1972, he talked to Wilt and the two understood one another perfectly:
"Wilt never missed a practice--a shootaround. He loved it." -- Gail Goodrich on Hoop du Jour with Peter Vescey

Even when he didn't necessarily agree, Wilt often demonstrated adaptability by modifying his game in any way possible for his coach and team.

This is something no other superstar has had to go through because Wilt was, for better or worse, constantly compared to Russell throughout his career. Russell had a certain style of play based on his strengths, and it was believed that if Wilt played this way he might win more.

Wilt wanted to win more than setting records. When requested, he willingly adjusted his playing style for his coaches. His most effective coaches, who were also lifelong friends, were able to utilize his abilities in the most advantageous ways. These coaches consistently talk about Wilt's desire to win and listen in order to achieve success, and Wilt himself mentions it frequently

K.C. Jones
"I had never thought much of Wilt as a winning player or as a team man. We'd been in some fierce games with him when I was with the Celtics and he was in Philly there was always too much controversy around him and therefore around the team.

I figured he caused it. Philly had a team that should have been able to beat the Celtics most times but they couldn't. Without ever saying so out loud, I unfairly blamed Wilt for this at the time." -- Rebound by K.C. Jones

"We started to win and as that team played winning basketball I watched Wilt Chamberlain and my respect for him grew and grew. Wilt was the guy that the papers and fans always hammered on.

The media made him a villain and he never seemed to be able to turn that image around. If the team lost it was going to be his fault.

If the team won it was almost as if the team won even though he played for them I decided that the controversy in Philly and their failure to win were someone else's fault." -- Rebound by K.C. Jones

"Wilt worked so hard and wanted so much to win. And strong, mercy! I've never seen anybody like him." -- Rebound by K.C. Jones


Wilt was a complex individual. When a coach respected him, he reciprocated that respect and followed the coach's guidance. Unfortunately, he did not have the privilege of being coached by someone like Red Auerbach throughout his entire career. But the vast majority of his teammates respected him and enjoyed playing alongside him.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt's career is a lot like that LeBron hater hypothetical/wet dream where Kyrie and Ray Allen miss their threes and he ends up 2-8 in the finals.

Many of the narratives surrounding LeBron and his finals losses would have a lot more ground to stand on if we didn't have so many tools to analyze the nuances of his impact and were forced to rely entirely on incomplete box scores, media headlines, and estimates of team ratings.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4fTjcJwImw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWqz1ZyK3M4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHEYeaQk86I


Just change three plays in Wilt's career and he ends up with five rings.

[Full Court]

Russell is not winning 11 rings with the cast Wilt had in the first half of his career.

^Another bad take by the self proclaimed bball historian.

Shocking!

:biggums:

[warriorfan]

Wilt's career is a lot like that LeBron hater hypothetical/wet dream where Kyrie and Ray Allen miss their threes and he ends up 2-8 in the finals.

Many of the narratives surrounding LeBron and his finals losses would have a lot more ground to stand on if we didn't have so many tools to analyze the nuances of his impact and were forced to rely entirely on incomplete box scores, media headlines, and estimates of team ratings.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4fTjcJwImw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWqz1ZyK3M4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHEYeaQk86I


Just change three plays in Wilt's career and he ends up with five rings.

Thank you for your contributions brother. Much appreciated

[Full Court]

Wait a minute.... is this thread about swapping Wilt for Bill Russell or for Russell Westbrook? OP doesn't specify.

If you swap Wilt with Russ Westbrook, then Wilt does not lead the 2021 Lakers superteam to the lottery.

[julizaver]

What are the results?

There was a story about how Red Auerbach was trying to recruit Wilt, when Wilt was working as bellhop in a hotel in Catskills. We never know for sure the answer, but there are different opinions. I remembered video of Red, who always stood by his guy Russell, asked what if they swap places, and he rightly claim that we need to see the things in a different way and said that by the time Wilt was rookie (23 years of age) he was already spoiled, living in NY and training in Philly and having different standards - one for Wilt and another for all the rest.
But in my opinion Red would have success with Chamberlain and would have won a lot of rings with him also. Since Alex Hannum convinced Wilt to be team player and Bill Sharman told Wilt to concentrate on defense then why would an all-time great coach like Red doesn't be able to find a place for Wilt. And furthermore we all knew of Wilt scoring a lot in his younger days, but he was also told to do this by his teams and be attraction selling tickets. I also remember Wilt as a rookie saying that he seen himself as a defender.

[HylianNightmare]

I'd assume wilt wins 4-6

[dankok8]

Wilt's career is a lot like that LeBron hater hypothetical/wet dream where Kyrie and Ray Allen miss their threes and he ends up 2-8 in the finals.

Many of the narratives surrounding LeBron and his finals losses would have a lot more ground to stand on if we didn't have so many tools to analyze the nuances of his impact and were forced to rely entirely on incomplete box scores, media headlines, and estimates of team ratings.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4fTjcJwImw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWqz1ZyK3M4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHEYeaQk86I


Just change three plays in Wilt's career and he ends up with five rings.

Umm what?

In 1962 it was a tie game when Sam Jones hit the game winner. No guarantee the Warriors win.

In 1965 Sixers were down 1 point with the ball when Hondo stole the ball. Sixers still had to score there.

In 1969 if Sam Jones misses Lakers go up 3-1 but as we know that's not a guarantee either.

It takes some serious mental gymnastics to give Wilt 3 extra rings from those 3 plays.

[Axe]

Wilt isn't going to win 11 rings on russell's place.